Leftism vs Socialism

[Remus Bleys]

What is the difference between leftism and socialism?

[G4b3n]

That depends on how you define "leftism".
In mainstream politics you are leftwing if you vote for the more apologetic bourgeois once every 4 years.
In Socialist circles, you are leftwing if you advocate for anti-capitalist, i.e socialist politics.

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

Kind of strange question, I guess.

Anyway, "leftism" is a broad (and therefore inaccurate) term used to classify almost anything. See: social-democrats, despite being vile reformists at best, are considered "leftists". The same goes for any "progressive" political force.

Socialism too is broad. There exists marxist socialism, so-called libertarian socialism, utopian socialism and whatnot.

[baronci]

the "left" is a political category while socialism is a vague term typically used to describe a type of society or mode of production contradictory to capitalism

[BIXX]

Kind of strange question, I guess.

Anyway, "leftism" is a broad (and therefore inaccurate) term used to classify almost anything. See: social-democrats, despite being vile reformists at best, are considered "leftists". The same goes for any "progressive" political force.

Socialism too is broad. There exists marxist socialism, so-called libertarian socialism, utopian socialism and whatnot.

Why are you saying "so called"?

As for leftism vs. socialism, I think that depends on your tendency. I believe a post-leftist would argue that all leftists are not socialists (or something, I do not know much about that tendency), whereas many people say that the left as a whole is good and should be united, implying that they believe that all leftists are socialists.

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

Why are you saying "so called"?

As in "commonly called libertarian socialism". I used it because I'd argue that marxists ('libertarians' or not) are for the overcoming of capitalism. If that is not libertarian, I don't know what it is...

(But of course, you can dispute that someone may think to be libertarian and in practice just enforce capitalism. That's another point however).

No big deal.

[Remus Bleys]

So there is no real difference between the two?
but in the case of post left, what is something that is left but not socialist?

[G4b3n]

So there is no real difference between the two?
but in the case of post left, what is something that is left but not socialist?

Just like all political terminology it depends on how you define the word. Some people interpret things differently than others.

[Remus Bleys]

Just like all political terminology it depends on how you define the word. Some people interpret things differently than others.That doesn't really help. There has got to be a general thought, or a couple main currents.

[Comrade #138672]

I tend to define the left as the progressive current, relative to the current mode of production, according to historical materialism. In this way, it explains why the revolutionary bourgeoisie vs the reactionary aristocracy was (considered) left vs right back then and why the revolutionary proletariat vs the reactionary bourgeoisie is (considered) left vs right right now.

[TheEmancipator]

As in "commonly called libertarian socialism". I used it because I'd argue that marxists ('libertarians' or not) are for the overcoming of capitalism. If that is not libertarian, I don't know what it is...

(But of course, you can dispute that someone may think to be libertarian and in practice just enforce capitalism. That's another point however).

No big deal.

I think Liberterian Socialists don't like the part where you have to either report to a centralised state or go to the gulag.

[Black Cross]

Socialism too is broad. There exists marxist socialism, so-called libertarian socialism, utopian socialism and whatnot.

Socialism isn't broad at all. Perhaps it could be implemented in different ways, but socialism is clearly defined as far as i'm aware. It is a mode of production and consumption driven by the collective working-class ownership over the means of production.

The examples you listed are simply philosophies or names of theories for how socialism will be achieved.

[BIXX]

As in "commonly called libertarian socialism". I used it because I'd argue that marxists ('libertarians' or not) are for the overcoming of capitalism. If that is not libertarian, I don't know what it is...

(But of course, you can dispute that someone may think to be libertarian and in practice just enforce capitalism. That's another point however).

No big deal.

Ok, I was just wondering. Hahaha, I was a bit tendency sensitive when I asked that.

[Thirsty Crow]

What is the difference between leftism and socialism?
Of course, it depends on the way we use words.

In my view, "leftism" denotes the spectrum encompassing political organizations and sets of political positions which, in one way or another, uphold workers' rights within the framework of capitalism, as defenders of the working class as variable capital.

Socialism, on the other hand, denotes specific class politics and political organizations aiming for the destruction of the working class as a class by means of the elimination of capital, and consequently, by organizing social production on the basis of collective ownership, control, disposition of the products of labour.

I should add that this view, or rather that this use of the term "leftism", is not that common among those who recognize themselves as pro-revolutionaries.

[BIXX]

In my view, "leftism" denotes the spectrum encompassing political organizations and sets of political positions which, in one way or another, uphold workers' rights within the framework of capitalism, as defenders of the working class as variable capital.

I should add that this view, or rather that this use of the term "leftism", is not that common among those who recognize themselves as pro-revolutionaries.

I think various users on this forum use it in that regard, specifically TAT and (if I am not mistaken) Blake's Baby.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Any political position that is not [revolutionary] socialism is inherently right-wing. Even if the followers want a left-wing or socialist future ie reformists, they would actively protect the bourgeoisie from the socialist revolution they are against. So, leftism = [revolutionary] socialism and [revolutionary] socialism = leftism. :)

[Thirsty Crow]

I think various users on this forum use it in that regard, specifically TAT and (if I am not mistaken) Blake's Baby.
I would be surprised if they didn't. But yes, left communists and class struggle anarchists use the term in this way, along with the much famed left-wing of capital.

[The Intransigent Faction]

I'm starting to feel more and more that the term "leftism" doesn't make much sense. Isn't this "left/right-wing" stuff an antiquated terminology based on where the Whigs and Tories sat in British parliament? Or was I severely mislead in history classes about the origin of that? If it is true, what relevance does that have for socialists?

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

It comes from the French Revolution and where the Jacobins and Girondins sat in the National Assembly. Left and Right, subsequently.

That's what I always heard.

[ckaihatsu]

So there is no real difference between the two?




but in the case of post left, what is something that is left but not socialist?


Political advocacy and activism for trade unionism and governmental social services would be examples of not-necessarily-revolutionary leftism.

Taking each discrete position on the political spectrum continuum as a distinct "epicenter" of its own, such trade-unionism and social-services would be on the "outskirts" of a *revolutionary* position, since more-potent revolutionary efforts would concentrate on the self-empowerment and self-liberation of the world's working class itself, *not* through the proxy of trade unions or bourgeois governments. Reformist developments that *help* trade unions or dispossessed people would not be *opposed* by the revolutionary position, but such leftism would be seen as 'crumbs from the table', for the working class.


[3] Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals

http://s6.postimage.org/cpkm723u5/3_Ideologies_Operations_Fundamentals.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/cpkm723u5/)


Ideologies & Operations -- Left Centrifugalism

http://s6.postimage.org/zc8b2rb3h/110211_Ideologies_Operations_Left_Centrifug.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/zc8b2rb3h/)

[TheRedRose]

I would say all those who are part of the left are socialists. Communists, anarchists, etc, are all socialists, and are all leftists.
Social-democrats and are not leftists.

[human strike]

I see the affirmation of class as one of the defining features of leftism. Or in other words, programmatism.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I guess the way I conceptualize it is as a braod umbrella term basically including people and forces (generally outside the "mainstream") organizing around labor and the oppressed in society. I guess it would include everythone from radical liberals to various strands of anti-oppression forces, labor, and revolutionaries. I see socialists and anarchists as a subset of a wider left (i.e. the "far-" or "revolutionary-left"), and a subset that can have different connections to that broader left: it can be rooted and central to it, it can be periferal, it can be marginalized, and so on. Reformist and liberal trends also compete for sway within that broader umbrella.

So in concretre terms, in the US there was the "New Left" which was radical liberals and new revolutionary trends; the "old left" was labor militancy and revolutionary trends. The anti-globalization movement was probably also a mini-example IMO with "progressives" to vague radicals to more specific marxists and anarchist trends.