RATM not really Marxists

[Hawker]

Have you guys ever asked this question?

It's obvious that they're probably not Marxists because they conspire with the coporation.I thought that the main enemy of communism is big coporations,but RATM worked for Epic Records which is a big music coporation am I not right?

[BOZG]

I doubt anyone actually believe they were.

The whole RATM and big record company idea has been explained so many times. Had they stayed with a small record label, they wouldn't have been able to have their music spread to such a large audience and they wouldn't have been able to spread their political message.

[Hawker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 02:43 AM
I doubt anyone actually believe they were.

The whole RATM and big record company idea has been explained so many times. Had they stayed with a small record label, they wouldn't have been able to have their music spread to such a large audience and they wouldn't have been able to spread their political message.
So they're really not Marxists,I knew it!

[atlanticche]

i think there anarchists, aren't they?

[Hawker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 02:51 AM
i think there anarchists, aren't they?
No I've read their interviews and they say they're communists but they're really not.

[moncadista]

the original members of Rage Against The Machine are/were all marxists. the fact that they sold out changes nothing. i wish they hadn't sold out. but they did. there is a plus though... i probably wouldn't of ever heard them had they not. by the way... any other former Rage fans who can't stand "audioslave"? they are so bad now that Zach is gone.

[ComradeRed]

what happened? why did zach leave? im sorry but i kinda completely forgot, so...

[moncadista]

im a little fuzzy on the details, but either he left because the band was not living up to his political vision of the band, or they kicked him out because he wasn't living up to their standards. either way, RATM will be missed. they were true legends.

[truthaddict11]

any other former Rage fans who can't stand "audioslave"? they are so bad now that Zach is gone

i actually like Audioslave alot more than RATM.

Zach left RATM for personal reasons. You could have seen it comming though, they almost broke up while recording thier albums. With someone like Chris Cornell, one of the best vocalists ever, the other guys are able to get more done, they already had half of thier next album (left over from recording the first album) in the can before they even played live. It took RATM four years and a near breakup to get Evil Empire done. Plus I enjoy Audioslaves lyrics a lot more, who cares if they arent political, they are very deep lyrics.

Long Live Audioslave and Chris Cornell

[(*]

Yeah, Chris has some real deep lyrics. Especially Exploder, What you are, and Like a stone.
And he has one of the best voices in rock.

They might not carry a political message in their music, but the members are still into activism etc...

[Ralph]

soundgaren r better than audioslave an ratm together

:)

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 02:35 AM
Have you guys ever asked this question?

It's obvious that they're probably not Marxists because they conspire with the coporation.I thought that the main enemy of communism is big coporations,but RATM worked for Epic Records which is a big music coporation am I not right?
They have done what Marx and Engels did. Engels owned a factory so he could use the surplus value of the worker's labour to publish their books.

[atlanticche]

also if you didnt know engel's was marx's landlord when he came to britain

this is going back a bit further, but you know about how they kicked out their drummer for his one man protest at the mtv awards thing,
well does audioslave have that drummer now?

[mentalbunny]

I didn't know anything about that, atlanicche, more info, please?

[Ralph]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 04:11 PM


this is going back a bit further, but you know about how they kicked out their drummer for his one man protest at the mtv awards thing,

that was teh bass player and he didnt get kicked out

and he, the drummer and the guitarist r all now in audioslave

:ph34r:

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 02:35 AM
Have you guys ever asked this question?

It's obvious that they're probably not Marxists because they conspire with the coporation.I thought that the main enemy of communism is big coporations,but RATM worked for Epic Records which is a big music coporation am I not right?
You're on the internet! You're using the technology of the corporations! You're not a Marxist! Burn him!

We all conspire to a certain degree.

[redfront]

Originally posted by YouKnowTheyMurderedX+Jan 11 2004, 06:39 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (YouKnowTheyMurderedX @ Jan 11 2004, 06:39 PM)
[email protected] 11 2004, 02:35 AM
Have you guys ever asked this question?

It&#39;s obvious that they&#39;re probably not Marxists because they conspire with the coporation.I thought that the main enemy of communism is big coporations,but RATM worked for Epic Records which is a big music coporation am I not right?
You&#39;re on the internet&#33; You&#39;re using the technology of the corporations&#33; You&#39;re not a Marxist&#33; Burn him&#33;

We all conspire to a certain degree. [/b]
We shouldn&#39;t be ashamed by it, we&#39;re using capitalism like a weapon against it self.
It&#39;s the exact same thing RATM did, they used the big companies to talk to the big crowed

[Invader Zim]

Well I think they suck, their music is repetative as it is cold. The only truly redeaming feature of RATM is Tom Morello, the guy is definatly a great guitarist.

I also belive it to be impossible for a band to be truly Marxist, as they will always take that Limo etc.

[YKTMX]

What does mode of transport have to do with politics?

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 07:05 PM
What does mode of transport have to do with politics?
:rolleyes:

Limo? Expensive? capitalist? :rolleyes:

[Saint-Just]

The International Noise Conspiracy (more popular in the U.S.) claim to be Marxists. They have Marxist polemics in the albums sleeves etc. And political lyrics, however their Marxism is of the redstar2000 variety.

[Hawker]

Originally posted by redfront+Jan 11 2004, 06:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (redfront @ Jan 11 2004, 06:52 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 06:39 PM

[email protected] 11 2004, 02:35 AM
Have you guys ever asked this question?

It&#39;s obvious that they&#39;re probably not Marxists because they conspire with the coporation.I thought that the main enemy of communism is big coporations,but RATM worked for Epic Records which is a big music coporation am I not right?
You&#39;re on the internet&#33; You&#39;re using the technology of the corporations&#33; You&#39;re not a Marxist&#33; Burn him&#33;

We all conspire to a certain degree.
We shouldn&#39;t be ashamed by it, we&#39;re using capitalism like a weapon against it self.
It&#39;s the exact same thing RATM did, they used the big companies to talk to the big crowed [/b]
That&#39;s true.

[truthaddict11]

Originally posted by Chairman [email protected] 11 2004, 03:23 PM
The International Noise Conspiracy (more popular in the U.S.) claim to be Marxists. They have Marxist polemics in the albums sleeves etc. And political lyrics, however their Marxism is of the redstar2000 variety.
International Noise Conspiracy (one of my favorite bands) are Anarchists not Marxists.

[truthaddict11]

(*, what about "I am the highway"?

Ralph, i agree Soundgarden were awesome but i still love Audioslave

[che's long lost daughter]

RATM signed under Epic Records so that they could be able to reach a wider audience and let their message be known to people all over the world. I wouldn&#39;t have known about RATM if their label is not as popular as Epic.

RATM, in my opinion, is far better than Ausdioslave. I hate Chris Cornell. When he appears onscreen, he is like saying, "look at me...at how beautiful I am"

RATM lives forever...

[truthaddict11]

When he appears onscreen, he is like saying, "look at me...at how beautiful I am

thats because Chris Cornell is beautiful :wub:

[truthaddict11]

and just refer to Epic as Sony because they are the same thing. :rolleyes:

[Ralph]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 11:48 PM
thats because Chris Cornell is beautiful :wub:
soundgarden is beautiful :)

[YKTMX]

Originally posted by Enigma+Jan 11 2004, 08:19 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Enigma @ Jan 11 2004, 08:19 PM)
[email protected] 11 2004, 07:05 PM
What does mode of transport have to do with politics?
:rolleyes:

Limo? Expensive? capitalist? :rolleyes: [/b]
Eh? Computers, expensive, capitalist :rolleyes:


Don&#39;t you realise that a computer would be just as extravagant for someone in the third world as a limo would be to us? Yes? No?

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 06:29 PM
(*, what about "I am the highway"?

Ralph, i agree Soundgarden were awesome but i still love Audioslave
Yeah, that too.
All the songs have this weird effect on me when I listen to them.
Truly amazing.

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by Chairman Mao+Jan 11 2004, 10:40 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Chairman Mao @ Jan 11 2004, 10:40 AM)
[email protected] 11 2004, 02:35 AM
Have you guys ever asked this question?

It&#39;s obvious that they&#39;re probably not Marxists because they conspire with the coporation.I thought that the main enemy of communism is big coporations,but RATM worked for Epic Records which is a big music coporation am I not right?
They have done what Marx and Engels did. Engels owned a factory so he could use the surplus value of the worker&#39;s labour to publish their books.[/b]
That is exactly right Chairman Mao. I&#39;m sick of people criticizing RATM just because they happen to live in a capitalist country. Here is an excerpt from a recent interview Tom Morello gave with the Progressive:




Q: How do you reconcile being anti-corporate and being on a major label?

Morello: Rage Against the Machine sold fourteen million records of totally subversive revolutionary propaganda. The reason why is that the albums were released on Sony and got that sort of distribution.

You have two choices. I admire bands like Fugazi that take the other route. They are completely self-contained and independent. But if you do that, then you have to be a businessman. Then I have to sit there and worry about the orders to Belgium and make sure they get there. That is not what I&#39;m going to do.

We&#39;ve had, in Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave, complete artistic control, 100 percent over everything. Every second of every video, every second of every album, every bit of advertisement comes directly from us. I don&#39;t even look at it as a tradeoff. You live in a friggin&#39; capitalist world. If you want to sell 45s out of the back of your microbus, God bless you. And maybe that works better, I don&#39;t know. I&#39;ll see you at the finish line.

[hazard]

hats sort of the hilarious thing about capitalism

its inherint stupidity

so while a music corporation can produce rage inspring music, legally, they allow the factions of government to clean up their mess

some see bands like RATM akin to the "ten minute hate " of 84.

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by truthaddict11+Jan 11 2004, 09:10 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (truthaddict11 @ Jan 11 2004, 09:10 PM)
Chairman [email protected] 11 2004, 03:23 PM
The International Noise Conspiracy (more popular in the U.S.) claim to be Marxists. They have Marxist polemics in the albums sleeves etc. And political lyrics, however their Marxism is of the redstar2000 variety.
International Noise Conspiracy (one of my favorite bands) are Anarchists not Marxists. [/b]
How did you determine this? Anarchism is often indistinguishable from a Marxian interpretation of Marx. However, I would suggest that TINC are the latter since they often quote Rosa Luxembourg and Marx.

I would say that would support Anarchist movements, certainly, because their aims are almost identical. Obviously they do subscribe to Marxist analysis. They could be Anarchists but if so I would think they are Marxists too.

I am saying this purely objectively, I dislike Marxian scholars (in general) as greatly as I do anarchists. I certainly show no affection towards TINC, you can imagine what I think of their ideas.

[STI]

Well, saying that RATM isn&#39;t anarchist/marxist/whatever because they were on Epic (Sony) is like saying Noam Chomsky isn&#39;t an anarchist because his books are sold at Barnes & Noble (to paraphrase Tom Morrello). They chose Epic because they were going to retain all of their artistic independance, and, if a less- capitalist alternative was available, and could give them as much distribution, I&#39;m sure they would have taken it.

RATM Destroys Audioslave.


www.g7welcomingcommittee.com has a lot of great leftist bands, and they&#39;re non- corporate. T(I)NC is signed with them here in Canada.

[Saint-Just]

I don&#39;t agree that &#39;RATM&#39; destroys Audioslave. They delivery entirely different sounds, both have their appeal. The difference in members is simply Chris Cornell replacing Zack de la Rocha. Cornell is a greatly talented singer with an amazing voice.

I think the only way in which RATM surpasses Audioslave is that they delivered a very original style of music. Other than that, the skills of the two bands are comparable. The one thing they do share is Tom Morello&#39;s abilities on the guitar that give both bands a sound that no other band can imitate. I would suggest that Tom Morello supasses what he did in RATM, in Audioslave his sound is more refined and just as enjoyable to listen too as it ever was.

[che's long lost daughter]

Tom Morello kicks arse.

[Hate Is Art]

Are Fugazi lefties? Rage are better than Audioslave but AudioSlave are still pretty good.

P.S. Fugazi Own.

[atlanticche]

Originally posted by Ralph+Jan 11 2004, 06:24 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Ralph @ Jan 11 2004, 06:24 PM)
[email protected] 11 2004, 04:11 PM


this is going back a bit further, but you know about how they kicked out their drummer for his one man protest at the mtv awards thing,

that was teh bass player and he didnt get kicked out

and he, the drummer and the guitarist r all now in audioslave

:ph34r: [/b]
this is what happens when you get your information from school and try to remember 5 years after you were told about it


thanks

[praxis1966]

Frist of all, Atlanticche is absolutely correct. Tim Commeford was arrested for climbing in the rafters during Fred Durst&#39;s acceptance speach. The band never penalised him for the incident.

Secondly, no they&#39;re not all communists and never claimed to be. If you&#39;ve ever seen a live performance of theirs, you may notice that Tim always has an upside down Amerikkkan flag hanging from his monitor with an anarchy symbol hanging from it. Brad Wilk, the drummer, is more or less apolitical. Tom and Zack are the commies.

Thirdly, nobody from that band owns a limo. Zack drives a Ford Explorer and gives tons of money to the U&#036; fundraisers for EZLN, among other organizations. Tom was in the news a few months back championing the cause of Florida tomato pickers right to unionise for better pay.

Fourth, being that Tom&#39;s father was a Mau-Mau revolutionary, I highly doubt he is of substantially differing mind.

Lastly, how can you accuse anybody who consistantly quotes people like Frantz Fanon and Bobby Seale and does free benefit concerts like the Tibetan Freedom Concert, along with fundraisers for the Mumia Abu Jamal Defense fund and the communist presidential candidate who ran against Yeltsin a sellout? Kinda boggles the mind.

[synthesis]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:31 PM
soundgaren r better than audioslave an ratm together

:)
I&#39;d share a foxhole with this guy.

[j.guevara]

tom morello said that they used the corporate label so they could reach a wide audience and likened it to noam chomsky selling his books at borders and amazon.com

[mentalbunny]

For the truth about major record labels( GR sent this to me a while ago, but i lost it, just found it again):

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 02:51 AM
i think there anarchists, aren&#39;t they?
maoists, they were members of the RCP a moist party in the U&#036;A

[Chewillneverdie]

Audioslave owns, Rage owns, but you really cant compare the two bands. They almost sound completely differant, mainly cus Rocha was into hiphop and Cornell, well Cornell is the most profound voice in rock since Staley died.

[Hampton]

plok:

[Urban Rubble]

Thank you Hampton. I didn&#39;t want to have to be the one to piss on the fire. If you people think Rage is "waking people up" or whatever you want to call it, you are wrong. Most of the people attracted to our cause by Rage will be out of the movement by the time they turn 20.


Audioslave owns, Rage owns, but you really cant compare the two bands.

Godamnit, will you people stop saying owns ? It amazes me that there is actually trendy internet words.

[Chewillneverdie]

I got it from paintball, Hampton whered u find that, and whats so bad with him driving a nice car. lol IM DRIVING A CADDY but not a good caddy, pimpmobile caddy. Which is just as cool as an expensive car.

[struct]

Originally posted by petey+Jan 16 2004, 04:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (petey @ Jan 16 2004, 04:46 PM)
[email protected] 11 2004, 02:51 AM
i think there anarchists, aren&#39;t they?
maoists, they were members of the RCP a moist party in the U&#036;A[/b]
Really? Where did you hear that?

[dxoo]

TINC is great&#33; And they´re from the best country of them all to =).

[Saint-Just]

Originally posted by struct+Jan 19 2004, 06:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (struct @ Jan 19 2004, 06:30 AM)
Originally posted by pete[email protected] 16 2004, 04:46 PM

[email protected] 11 2004, 02:51 AM
i think there anarchists, aren&#39;t they?
maoists, they were members of the RCP a moist party in the U&#036;A
Really? Where did you hear that? [/b]
Apparently they support RCPUSA. RCP are Maoists, they have a broad range of support and looking at their ideas it is easy to see why Rage would support them. Of course there are obvious points where they would disagree. Perhaps a band member might be a member of RCP, since they support the RCP it is not unlikely.

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by petey+Jan 16 2004, 10:46 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (petey @ Jan 16 2004, 10:46 AM)
[email protected] 11 2004, 02:51 AM
i think there anarchists, aren&#39;t they?
maoists, they were members of the RCP a moist party in the U&#036;A [/b]
I really doubt they are RCP. They supported Ralph Nader and the Green Party. They even had Nader in one of their music videos. They&#39;ve also support the Dalai Lama&#39;s cause for a free Tibet which is also not a cause that RCP agrees with.

[Scottish_Militant]

Tom Morello is a Trotskyist&#33;

[commie kg]

Originally posted by [email protected] 25 2004, 04:06 PM
Tom Morello is a Trotskyist&#33;
Who owns two Escalades if I&#39;m not wrong... I remember reading that somewhere.

[Urban Rubble]

Who owns two Escalades if I&#39;m not wrong... I remember reading that somewhere.

I know man, that&#39;s what I&#39;m talking about. Yes, they&#39;re totally revolutionary, except when they have to make sacrifices themselves. It&#39;s easy to preach a bunch of shit but how about living it ? I&#39;m not saying have no luxuries, but owning an Escalade, especially two of them, just isnt&#39; acceptable for someone who use Che&#39;s face to sell records, or, as aslot of you seem to think, to "get a message out". Yeah right, they&#39;re capitalists of the most shrewd kind, the ones that have you fooled into believing they&#39;re on your side.

[SonofRage]

we live in a capitalist world, what do you expect them to do? Live on the streets selling their CDs and handing out pamphlets?

[mentalbunny]

Not quite, but they don&#39;t need to get amazing cars and shit. they could at least try to practice what they preach. But fuck it, I&#39;ve moved on from RATM, and you can&#39;t expect a successful band like that to stay in sight of the ground. At least they do a bit.

[Scottish_Militant]

Under capitalism we can only live inside it&#39;s means, and that usually means take what you can get. The RATM guys have done wonders for the cause, this critiscism is pure ignorance.

[Urban Rubble]

we live in a capitalist world, what do you expect them to do? Live on the streets selling their CDs and handing out pamphlets?

So you believe there is no middle ground between not making money off of their music and making millions (and owning 2 &#036;60,000 cars) ? You&#39;re wrong, there is. If they were truly revolutionary, if they really follow the teachings of Che Guevara, they would keep what they need to live a nice life and donate the rest to the cause or charity. But they don&#39;t, they live in million dollar homes and drive huge gas guzzling SUV&#39;s.They are living in a humble manor. As I said, I am all for luxuries in life, but taking it this far is wrong.


Under capitalism we can only live inside it&#39;s means, and that usually means take what you can get.

Live inside it&#39;s means ? What the fuck are you talking about ? Do me a favor, try and find a picture of Zach De La Rocha&#39;s house. If you think living in a mansion and owning several expensive cars is something a true Socialist would do you are dead wrong. Rage has used Che&#39;s face and revolutionary ideas to turn a profit, and you follow them blindly because you are a hero worshipping child. Answer me this, why do they allow themselves to become rich ? Why can&#39;t they take the money they make and live a comfortable life and then give the rest to a worthy cause ? Why can they preach Guevara&#39;s values yet at the same time totally contradict what Che taught by being rich bourgeoisie ?


The RATM guys have done wonders for the cause, this critiscism is pure ignorance.

The only thing they have done for the cause is being a few children to the leftist movement. And, as I said before, most kids who learned of Marxism through Rage will be out of the movement by the time they turn 20.

This criticism is ignorance ? No, I&#39;d say supporting someone who uses Che&#39;s face to get rich while contradicting everything the man taught is ignorance.

[SonofRage]

I&#39;ll post this excerpt from a Tom Morello interview again:



Q: How do you reconcile being anti-corporate and being on a major label?

Morello: Rage Against the Machine sold fourteen million records of totally subversive revolutionary propaganda. The reason why is that the albums were released on Sony and got that sort of distribution.

You have two choices. I admire bands like Fugazi that take the other route. They are completely self-contained and independent. But if you do that, then you have to be a businessman. Then I have to sit there and worry about the orders to Belgium and make sure they get there. That is not what I&#39;m going to do.

We&#39;ve had, in Rage Against the Machine and Audioslave, complete artistic control, 100 percent over everything. Every second of every video, every second of every album, every bit of advertisement comes directly from us. I don&#39;t even look at it as a tradeoff. You live in a friggin&#39; capitalist world. If you want to sell 45s out of the back of your microbus, God bless you. And maybe that works better, I don&#39;t know. I&#39;ll see you at the finish line.

[Urban Rubble]

Son of Rage, I understand the points Morello made, but that doesn&#39;t even come close to addressing my points. Did you read my post ? What you posted does not answer the question of why do they allow themselves to be millionaires. It doesn&#39;t answer why they are using Che&#39;s face to sell records yet they aren&#39;t following Che&#39;s ideals.

I said that I think it&#39;s fine for them to be on a major label and to make a healthy living, that is fine with me. I would take the chance if I had it. What I can&#39;t justify is them getting rich off of this. I have a hard time calling someone that owns 2 &#036;60,000 dollar gas guzzling luxury cars a revolutionary.

I have no problem with living comfortable, even better than the majority of people, what I have a problem with is that they are millionaires. If I were in that position I would live a nice life, but I wouldn&#39;t live in fucking mansions and own millions of dollars worth of luxuries.

Do me a favor, go back through my post, read it, and answer it&#39;s points. Please, address the points I made.

I thought this was pretty indicative of how these guys think:


I&#39;ll see you at the finish line.

[SonofRage]

The thing is, you didn&#39;t have any good points. What defines "truly revolutionary" and who are you to set these arbitrary standards? How much money do they have to donate before you consider them to be "True revolutionaries"? These are downright petty arguments. They spread an anti-capitalist message and if it reached some people then that&#39;s a good thing.

Personally, I wouldn&#39;t want to "follow the teachings" of an authoritarian Stalinist like Che Guevara. He should be admired for his bravery, but that&#39;s about it.

[Urban Rubble]

The thing is, you didn&#39;t have any good points.

Seeing as how you still cannot manage to address them I&#39;d say they&#39;re fairly solid. Do you know how bad that would sound in a real debate ? "Uhhh, ummm, I&#39;m won&#39;t answer that because it&#39;s not a good question". That&#39;s so stupid, address my points and show me my errors.


What defines "truly revolutionary" and who are you to set these arbitrary standards? How much money do they have to donate before you consider them to be "True revolutionaries"?

I&#39;m not setting any standards, I never claimed to be. However, I know what is right and wrong. I don&#39;t believe living in mansions and owning numerous expensive cars just for the sake of having them is acceptable behavior for anyone, it goes double for someone using Che Guevara&#39;s face to sell records. I am not defining standards, I am saying that they are greedy hypocritical dickheads.


They spread an anti-capitalist message and if it reached some people then that&#39;s a good thing.

Yes, that is a good thing, but it doesn&#39;t quite address what we&#39;re talking about. Just because that is a good thing doesn&#39;t mean they don&#39;t live like aristocratic millionaires.


Personally, I wouldn&#39;t want to "follow the teachings" of an authoritarian Stalinist like Che Guevara. He should be admired for his bravery, but that&#39;s about it.

That&#39;s fine, but you aren&#39;t the one using his face to sell records. If you are going to put his face on your T-shirts, living in the way that they do is completely hypocritical.

[redsmurfratm]

I believe that yes they were Marxist in theory but the fact that they were part of a big record corp. is of no matter. They arent like all the other bands who did shows and promotional things just to gain money for themselves. Zach gave a lot of his money to the Chicano community. They had to become as famous as they were for the simple fact of spreading their word. They used a good method and it worked. If you truely read their lyrics and actually get down to some of the real meanings then you will maybe figure out what they are all about. I don&#39;t feel that it would be right for you people to sit here and say that RATM wasent Marxist when they have done plenty more to be active Marxist then most of you have.

[SonofRage]

Originally posted by Urban [email protected] 28 2004, 08:18 PM

The thing is, you didn&#39;t have any good points.

Seeing as how you still cannot manage to address them I&#39;d say they&#39;re fairly solid. Do you know how bad that would sound in a real debate ? "Uhhh, ummm, I&#39;m won&#39;t answer that because it&#39;s not a good question". That&#39;s so stupid, address my points and show me my errors.


What defines "truly revolutionary" and who are you to set these arbitrary standards? How much money do they have to donate before you consider them to be "True revolutionaries"?

I&#39;m not setting any standards, I never claimed to be. However, I know what is right and wrong. I don&#39;t believe living in mansions and owning numerous expensive cars just for the sake of having them is acceptable behavior for anyone, it goes double for someone using Che Guevara&#39;s face to sell records. I am not defining standards, I am saying that they are greedy hypocritical dickheads.


They spread an anti-capitalist message and if it reached some people then that&#39;s a good thing.

Yes, that is a good thing, but it doesn&#39;t quite address what we&#39;re talking about. Just because that is a good thing doesn&#39;t mean they don&#39;t live like aristocratic millionaires.


Personally, I wouldn&#39;t want to "follow the teachings" of an authoritarian Stalinist like Che Guevara. He should be admired for his bravery, but that&#39;s about it.

That&#39;s fine, but you aren&#39;t the one using his face to sell records. If you are going to put his face on your T-shirts, living in the way that they do is completely hypocritical.
I couldn&#39;t address them because, like I said before, they really weren&#39;t good points in my opinion. Unfortunately, we live in a Capitalist world. You can&#39;t survive in a capitalist world by giving away all your money. It&#39;s just one of the contradictions of capitalism. Don&#39;t hate the player, hate the game.

[Floyd.]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 03:31 PM
soundgaren r better than audioslave an ratm together

:)
in terms of sound and ability yes, I agree. But don&#39;t attack me everyone RATM were definetly more inspiring to get hyped up to and there is great political thought behind those lyrics. I don&#39;t think they were commie because they were too bloodthirsty in terms of their ideologies and contradicted the humanist front many times over.

MIC CHECK
Oh Wait a minute now, ha ha ha, come on, wait a Minute Now, check.
To tha young r to tha e tha b to tha e tha l, never give up just live up
Fed upon America, we be spittin&#39; it up, rippin&#39; it up for an even amount in each cup
To my brothers burning bare feet on black top whose curled &#39;neath tha shadows
From tha gaze of tha cops whose huntin&#39; for 9 to 5&#39;s through factory locks
Is now hunted on this modern day auction block
Mic Check, ha ha ha, I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha, I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Mic Check, ha ha ha, I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha, I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Check check check check the check, oh, packin
Flexin&#39; and mashin&#39; with complex text, fast and in a fashion that snap back necks
Quicker than a fed cash tha company checks, come with tha fire only Marley could catch
This be tha flame in tha cellar beware, nameless cold millions gaspin&#39; for air
Those naked and wageless now scream within cages
What, they make you pull your shit, just to get your share, what?
Mic Check, ha ha ha, I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha, I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Mic Check, ha ha ha, I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha, I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what?
Welcome down with the warrior sound, UGH&#33;
With this mic device I spit nonfiction who got tha power, this be my question
Tha mass of tha few in this torn nation? Tha priest tha book or tha congregation?
Tha politricks who rob and hold down your zone? Or those who give tha thieves tha key to their homes?
Tha pig who&#39;s free to murder one Shucklak or survivors who make a move and murder one back?
This mic device I spit nonfiction, who got tha power, this be my question
Tha mass of tha few in this torn nation? Tha priest tha book or tha congregation?
Tha politricks who rob and hold down your zone? Or those who give tha thieves tha key to their homes?
Tha pig who&#39;s free to murder one Shucklak or survivors who make a move and murder one back?
Mic Check, ha ha ha, I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker
Mic Check, ha ha ha ha, I be the anti-myth rhythm rock shocker, what...?

"With this mic device I spit nonfiction who got tha power, this be my question
Tha mass of tha few in this torn nation? Tha priest tha book or tha congregation?
Tha politricks who rob and hold down your zone? Or those who give tha thieves tha key to their homes?
Tha pig who&#39;s free to murder one Shucklak or survivors who make a move and murder one back?"

Doesn&#39;t this imply an eye for an eye mentality? Please explain if I&#39;m wrong

[Saint-Just]

Communists often do hold an eye for eye mentality in certain circumstances, Anarchists do. Tom Morello is definately supportive of communist movements, and the whole band probably was to some extent since they supporetd the RCP.

[Urban Rubble]

You can&#39;t survive in a capitalist world by giving away all your money.

Can you read ? How many times do I have to tell you this ?

I never said give away all your money, or even close to all of your money. What I said was, being a multi millionaire is not O.K. I told you 3 times that I think living comfortably with luxuries is a fine thing. However, owning mansions and multiple expensive cars is wrong. Do you disagree ? Don&#39;t dodge this, I want to know, do you think that owning mansions and multiple expensive cars is O.K ? Especially for someone who uses Che Guevara&#39;s face to sell records ?


I couldn&#39;t address them because, like I said before, they really weren&#39;t good points in my opinion

Good God.

So if they are not good points, shouldn&#39;t it be pretty easy to quote me and tell me how I am wrong ? What you are saying is simply a way to avoid the points I made. If you don&#39;t think they were good points, fine, answer them and tell me why. But I know you will not do that.

[Individual]

The only thing they have done for the cause is being a few children to the leftist movement. And, as I said before, most kids who learned of Marxism through Rage will be out of the movement by the time they turn 20. -Urban Rubble

Ok UrbanRubble.. Let me ask you this. And answer honestly. How did you get turned onto Che? Exactly where did you hear/or find out about Che? Obviously from somewhere. How would you know if most of the kids turned onto Marxism by RATM will be out of the movement? How do you know that when you grow up your views will change and you won&#39;t be out of the movement? You can&#39;t know. And if you answer that you will be part, I will surely call you an ignorant person. Sure you may still follow Marxism, but what is to say for sure. My point is that no matter how many people may turn away from Marxist beliefs because of RATM, there will be just as many that will stay and follow them. The exposure from RATM is far greater than anything there has been. Who are you to judge the members of RATM? Do you follow everything they do, day to day? Are you there when they make generous donations to the movement? No matter the evils they have done, they have done far more for the good of the movement than you have, and probably will do. And the reason for this, because they capitalized on what they could. If RATM was capitalist, explain why they would donate even a dime to any part of the movement? If they were so capitalist, why aren&#39;t they swimming in gold pools, or defecating in gold toilets? I own two vehicles, am I capitalist? I hate to tell you, but being a millionaire, and only owning two &#036;60,000 vehicles is not to extravagent, nor does it make Mr. Morello evil. The members of RATM have worked hard for what they have, and you think it is extravagent to own two vehicles? Since your name involves "Urban", I shall assume you live in an urban area. If this is the case, go ahead and take a look around, tell me how many Escalades you see driving around these days. They are not to rare. With Mr. Morello&#39;s wealth, owning to Escalades is most likely the equivalent of you owning two beat up 1990 Geo Metros. I am sorry, but for you being so angry at a group that has done more to the cause than you have, I can&#39;t help but to be angered.

[SonofRage]

Urbanrubble,

I don&#39;t know what is so hard to understand. Despite how much you deny it, you are imposing arbitrary standards as to what constitutes a "true revolutionary." You say they shouldn&#39;t be millionaires, well how much money are they "allowed" to have before they are "true" revolutionaries? Is &#036;999,,999 ok?

Why stop there? If someone has an Xbox that is certainly luxurious in comparison to the lifestyle of many people in the world. Perhaps we should all live in squalor so we can be "true revolutionaries." How much wealth would someone have to amass before they reach the "cut off" and are no longer a "true revolutionary" in your view?

A lot of people succeed in this system yet still understand that it is a bad system and needs to be overthrown. If anything, they should be given more credit. It would be pretty easy for them to take their money and not bother getting involved in all the movements they are involved in. If a revolution actually broke out in the US, it&#39;s people like Morello who are going to end up providing material support to the resistance.

[Urban Rubble]

How did you get turned onto Che?

I didn&#39;t get "turned on to Che". I read a book about Communism when I was probably 12 or so. Through the years I got more interested in Marxism. I think I found out about him from just reading, reading about Socialism and stuff. I was probably about 14.


How would you know if most of the kids turned onto Marxism by RATM will be out of the movement?

Because it&#39;s a common trait of teenagers. One month they are listening to Hip Hop and wearing baggy pants, a few months later they&#39;re punk rockers with skin tight jeans. Kids are fickle, they follow trends. Of course I don&#39;t know how many will stay and how many will go, but it&#39;s a pretty common thing for kids to be infatuated with something and the next minute not give 2 shits. I am sure there will be many that stay with the cause, which is awesome. I just don&#39;t believe the majority will. That isn&#39;t a slam on RATM, it&#39;s just what I believe.


How do you know that when you grow up your views will change and you won&#39;t be out of the movement?

I don&#39;t. For all I know I could be a Republican in a few years.


My point is that no matter how many people may turn away from Marxist beliefs because of RATM, there will be just as many that will stay and follow them.

How do you know that ? You are asking me how I can be so sure of things, how do you know an equal amount will stick around ? It really doesn&#39;t matter, because even if one sticks around then that is great. All I am saying is that Rage is a bit hypocritical. I am not saying that them bringing kids to the movement is bad.


The exposure from RATM is far greater than anything there has been.

Do you really believe that ? I wholeheartedly disagree.


Who are you to judge the members of RATM?

Who am I ? My name is Tyler Stringfellow. I live in Seattle Washington.

I judge because I am a human. If you are trying to tell me that you don&#39;t judge people I&#39;d have to say you&#39;re a liar. You judge people everytime you see them. You have judged the members of Rage to be good guys who are helping the movement, that is judgemental.


Do you follow everything they do, day to day?

No, of course not. Do you ? Do you follow everything George Bush does everyday ? No ? I didn&#39;t think so, but you have still judged him. I don&#39;t think I have to follow someone&#39;s every move to have an opinion on them.

This is ad hominem bullshit, please drop it.


Are you there when they make generous donations to the movement?

No. But I already acknowledged that they do give money to charity. Again, drop the ad hominem.


No matter the evils they have done, they have done far more for the good of the movement than you have, and probably will do.

Let me get this straight, you blast me for "judging" Rage. Yet you have never even met me, never even talked to me, and you are judging that they have done more than me ?

I&#39;ll tell you, I am positive that they have given more money to the movement, but the fact that you are sure of this without ever meeting me shows how utterly judgemental you&#39;re being. Hypocritical as well.


If RATM was capitalist, explain why they would donate even a dime to any part of the movement?

Please show me exactly where I called them Capitalists. Seriously, show me. I never did, don&#39;t make shit up kid.


If they were so capitalist, why aren&#39;t they swimming in gold pools, or defecating in gold toilets?

Two questions.

1. Where in the fuck did I say they were capitalists ?

2. Do you actually believe that all Capitalists have gold pools and toilets ? Are you really that fucking retarted ?

My friend&#39;s father is a multi millionaire business owner. He is as Capitalist as they come. I can tell you, there is not one gold toilet or pool in the house.

Also, they aren&#39;t swimming in a gold pool, but Zach lives/lived in a mansion worth a few million dollars. I would say that is just as wasteful (if not more so) that a gold pool.


I own two vehicles, am I capitalist?

Where are you getting this bullshit ? I NEVER SAID THEY WERE CAPITALISTS YOU DIPSHIT.


I hate to tell you, but being a millionaire, and only owning two &#036;60,000 vehicles is not to extravagent, nor does it make Mr. Morello evil.

You&#39;re starting to fucking piss me off kid. I never said Tom Morello was "evil". Please stop making up bullshit.

So greed is only relative to how much money you make ? Hmmm, that doesn&#39;t sound right. So, when the CEO of Enron hosted a party that costed around &#036;10 million (for one weekend) that wasn&#39;t greedy ? I mean, that was only a small fraction of the money he makes, so wasting &#036;10 million on a party while there are people dying of hunger in the world is not greedy (as long as you are worth much more than &#036;10 million) ?


The members of RATM have worked hard for what they have, and you think it is extravagent to own two vehicles?

I don&#39;t doubt they worked hard to get what they have, but I don&#39;t think playing in a band is really worthy of millions upon millions of dollars.

Tell me, do you think playing in a band is harder that doing construction ? If you think they work harder than the average guy out on a construction site, you&#39;re insane. So, why do I only make &#036;20,000 dollars a year and these guys make at least &#036;10 million a year. Do you think playing in a band is so much harder than construction that a &#036;9,980,000 difference in salary is justified ? I work 50 hours per week, and it is backbreaking work, I barely have enough to live on. These guys, while working hard, only have to play music, which they love to do anyways. Tell me that is fair you fool.

Do you have a grasp of Marxism at all ? I can tell you, I work just as hard as these pamerped rich boys, so don&#39;t act like me barely scraping by while they live like kings is O.K.


If this is the case, go ahead and take a look around, tell me how many Escalades you see driving around these days. They are not to rare.

What the fuck does that have to do with anything ?

Now, do me a favor, go out and look at all those Escalades, then , go ask the owner if he claims to be a Marxist. Go ask the owner if he used Che&#39;s face to increase his revenue.

Just because other people drive expensive cars and live lavishly, that makes it O.K for everyone ?

Do me one more favor, go out in the street, see how many people are selling drugs, or really, committing any crime. Just because people are committing crimes that makes it O.K for me to do the same ? By your logic that makes perfect sense.


With Mr. Morello&#39;s wealth, owning to Escalades is most likely the equivalent of you owning two beat up 1990 Geo Metros.

God you&#39;re dense. That is my exact point, that these guys are extremely rich, I think that is wrong. I don&#39;t think people should be allowed to be this rich (unless everyone else is), it is twice as wrong when you use Marxist values to sell records.


I am sorry, but for you being so angry at a group that has done more to the cause than you have, I can&#39;t help but to be angered.

You&#39;re pissed because I slammed your heroes. Shut the fuck up.

[canikickit]

That&#39;s a pretty long post for the music forum, Rubble. :o

My own reply to the title, "RATM not really Marxists", I would say, Rage Against the Machine are musicians.
I think they&#39;re right for going with a big label, and I don&#39;t really begrudge them spending their money on whatever they want.

I think owning two vehicles is pretty pointless. But I&#39;m sure there are people that think owning a few hundred CDs is pointless.

Just as long as Rage Against the Machine (as individuals) continue to try and spread what messages they have, and aren&#39;t overly greedy, I don&#39;t mind too much.

[SonofRage]

I&#39;m getting the impression that either Urban Rubble doesn&#39;t understand what the term "ad hominem" really means or he is just applying it wrongly. Especially since he is the one engaging in ad hominem attacks by calling people "dip shit."

[Individual]

Before I start, I am going to let you know that I am not trying to further any debate. I am going to try and just focus on responding to your questions. However this may be tough. We both have our own opinions, which is fine, and I don&#39;t see either of us swaying our opinions. So here goes:


Because it&#39;s a common trait of teenagers. One month they are listening to Hip Hop and wearing baggy pants, a few months later they&#39;re punk rockers with skin tight jeans. Kids are fickle, they follow trends. Of course I don&#39;t know how many will stay and how many will go, but it&#39;s a pretty common thing for kids to be infatuated with something and the next minute not give 2 shits. I am sure there will be many that stay with the cause, which is awesome. I just don&#39;t believe the majority will. That isn&#39;t a slam on RATM, it&#39;s just what I believe.

Yes I can definetely agree with the fact that kids tend to change ways. I was just trying to put forth that even if some of the kids stayed with it, that is more than what would have been.


How do you know that ? You are asking me how I can be so sure of things, how do you know an equal amount will stick around ? It really doesn&#39;t matter, because even if one sticks around then that is great. All I am saying is that Rage is a bit hypocritical. I am not saying that them bringing kids to the movement is bad.

I don&#39;t know that exactly half would, I guess a better thing to say would have been "maybe".


The exposure from RATM is far greater than anything there has been.



Do you really believe that ? I wholeheartedly disagree.

Not to drag on debate. However what would be your arguement that has brought on more positive(not news programs, or politicians bashing communist beliefs) exposure than Rage?


Who am I ? My name is Tyler Stringfellow. I live in Seattle Washington.
I judge because I am a human. If you are trying to tell me that you don&#39;t judge people I&#39;d have to say you&#39;re a liar. You judge people everytime you see them. You have judged the members of Rage to be good guys who are helping the movement, that is judgemental.

Ok. Thats great. And I&#39;ll pull an Urban Rubble on this one. When did I ever say that I didn&#39;t judge people? My point with "who are you to judge RATM" was how can you downsize their exposure, while you have not spread revolution to the masses.


Let me get this straight, you blast me for "judging" Rage. Yet you have never even met me, never even talked to me, and you are judging that they have done more than me ?

I apologize, for I do not know you. However I have made a predetermined guess. Though I am correct right? I have made this assumption from seeing some of your posts and no mention of any actions, pamphlets, books, movies, c.d.s, public appearances, etc. that you have done to spread the movement surpassing RATM. And seeing as how the members of ratm were fairly widespread.


I&#39;ll tell you, I am positive that they have given more money to the movement, but the fact that you are sure of this without ever meeting me shows how utterly judgemental you&#39;re being. Hypocritical as well.

Define hypocrite, or hypocritcal. And how exactly have I been a hypocrite?


Two questions.
1. Where in the fuck did I say they were capitalists ?
2. Do you actually believe that all Capitalists have gold pools and toilets ? Are you really that fucking retarted ?
My friend&#39;s father is a multi millionaire business owner. He is as Capitalist as they come. I can tell you, there is not one gold toilet or pool in the house.
Also, they aren&#39;t swimming in a gold pool, but Zach lives/lived in a mansion worth a few million dollars. I would say that is just as wasteful (if not more so) that a gold pool.

Wohh there cowboy.. You might need to sit down for this one. As you say "Where in the fuck did I say they were capitalists?" Well um.. maybe right here in this very thread. Don&#39;t look to far now, you might hurt yourself. Don&#39;t jump at me for something you said. If you still can&#39;t find where you said it... It is right here for ya:


I know man, that&#39;s what I&#39;m talking about. Yes, they&#39;re totally revolutionary, except when they have to make sacrifices themselves. It&#39;s easy to preach a bunch of shit but how about living it ? I&#39;m not saying have no luxuries, but owning an Escalade, especially two of them, just isnt&#39; acceptable for someone who use Che&#39;s face to sell records, or, as aslot of you seem to think, to "get a message out". Yeah right, they&#39;re capitalists of the most shrewd kind, the ones that have you fooled into believing they&#39;re on your side.

And don&#39;t forget, they aren&#39;t just capitalists, they are of the most shrewd kind&#33; So before you get in a tissy fit. Just remember, you said it, not I.

And to answer your question about gold toilets and gold pools. Yes. I just must be that "fucking retarded". I had really thought all capitalists had gold toilets and gold pools. Let alone any. Did you hear I can travel back in time too?


I NEVER SAID THEY WERE CAPITALISTS YOU DIPSHIT.

Apology will be accepted.


I hate to tell you, but being a millionaire, and only owning two &#036;60,000 vehicles is not to extravagent, nor does it make Mr. Morello evil.


You&#39;re starting to fucking piss me off kid. I never said Tom Morello was "evil". Please stop making up bullshit.

First off, from respect, who are you calling kid? How old are you again? 16-17? And that makes me a kid? Besides this, here goes another Urban Rubble: I NEVER SAID THAT YOU SAID TOM MORELLO WAS EVIL. Did I? I wrote, "nor does it make Mr. Morello evil". I didn&#39;t write "you said he was evil". See the difference? Or am I still being "fucking retarded"?


So greed is only relative to how much money you make ? Hmmm, that doesn&#39;t sound right. So, when the CEO of Enron hosted a party that costed around &#036;10 million (for one weekend) that wasn&#39;t greedy ? I mean, that was only a small fraction of the money he makes, so wasting &#036;10 million on a party while there are people dying of hunger in the world is not greedy (as long as you are worth much more than &#036;10 million) ?

Well in your case greed must be relative to how much money you make. You seem to have no problem having that computer you are typing on. I don&#39;t see you chomping at the bit to go sell it to give back that few hundred dollars to the people dying of hunger. So you answered your question. Greed is relative to how much money you make. That seems to be what you are implying. If you are so concerned with the dying and needy people (that most definetely can&#39;t afford that computer, which would, in your case, be looked at as greedy to them) sell that computer, and send away the money. Oh but it is your parents, well, its still greedy. Right? And of course &#036;10 million dollars on a party is outrageous, but so is a thousand dollar computer to those that can barely afford weekly food, clothes, etc. I don&#39;t agree with capitalism in any bit, but if you are going to argue over what is greedy, take a step back and think of the possesions that you own.


I don&#39;t doubt they worked hard to get what they have, but I don&#39;t think playing in a band is really worthy of millions upon millions of dollars.

Tell me, do you think playing in a band is harder that doing construction ? If you think they work harder than the average guy out on a construction site, you&#39;re insane. So, why do I only make &#036;20,000 dollars a year and these guys make at least &#036;10 million a year. Do you think playing in a band is so much harder than construction that a &#036;9,980,000 difference in salary is justified ? I work 50 hours per week, and it is backbreaking work, I barely have enough to live on. These guys, while working hard, only have to play music, which they love to do anyways. Tell me that is fair you fool.

Do you have a grasp of Marxism at all ? I can tell you, I work just as hard as these pamerped rich boys, so don&#39;t act like me barely scraping by while they live like kings is O.K.

Did I agree that it was fair, or ok? No. They found a way to make it in this society. We do not live under communist rule. So at this point in time, nothing is fair. That is the way it works. And by the way, I just moved from the Seattle area, and imagine what I did for an occupation. Constuction. And low and behold what does it do in Seattle? Rain. And you are trying to tell me you worked 50 hours a week? Hogwash. And if you really did work 50 hours a week and only make &#036;20 grand a year, then you are working for the wrong company. Ok Tyler. Tell me exactly what company you worked for, and where you did labor (i.e. what part of the city or surrounding area, and what type of labor). I may be able to believe what you have tried to tell me a little better. Not to turn this personal, and call you a liar. However this is extremely hard for me to believe having lived in the Seattle area for close to 10 years, and having done numerous construction and painting jobs.


God you&#39;re dense. That is my exact point, that these guys are extremely rich, I think that is wrong. I don&#39;t think people should be allowed to be this rich (unless everyone else is), it is twice as wrong when you use Marxist values to sell records.

Like I said. We do not live in a communist nation, under communist rule. Of course things are not fair.


I am sorry, but for you being so angry at a group that has done more to the cause than you have, I can&#39;t help but to be angered.


You&#39;re pissed because I slammed your heroes. Shut the fuck up.

Yes, you have me on the dot. RATM are my heroes. I have idolized figurines also, and draw comic books of them (another sarcastic remark). If you want the truth, I was angered because you are ignorant to the fact that under the current way of this society, the members of Rage have succeeded in life. And you imply that you fail to see the good in what they have done, despite some odd things. So before you speak out of rage and tell me to "Shut the fuck up". Open your eyes.

Wow this was probably very long, however I felt it need be. I am not trying to start personal anguish towards eachother. Just felt some comments were needed. This thread will probably lead nowhere besides constant debate over this issue. This in fact does nothing besides bring grudge against one another. Do not take anything to seriously, for we are here for the same reasons.

[Xvall]

Calm down. It&#39;s not like they&#39;re holding children at gunpoint to mass-produce the damn records. As Mao stated, many socialist/communist figures in the past have used ccapitalist mediums in order to express their idea. If you want to be a &#39;purist&#39; about it you shouldn&#39;t even be on the internet.

[Bad Grrrl Agro]

Originally posted by struct+Jan 19 2004, 06:30 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (struct @ Jan 19 2004, 06:30 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 16 2004, 04:46 PM

[email protected] 11 2004, 02:51 AM
i think there anarchists, aren&#39;t they?
maoists, they were members of the RCP a moist party in the U&#036;A
Really? Where did you hear that? [/b]
many scources like the red encyclopedia

[zapata&#39;s_ghost]

i think they probably are marxists. . . zach de la rocha did run guns for mexican communist rebels, i dont see corporate cocksuckers like fred durst doing things like that

[BOZG]

Well in your case greed must be relative to how much money you make.

You have no comprehension of socialism whatsoever do you? You cannot possibly compare someone owning a single computer living on quite a basic salary to someone who&#39;s able to afford &#036;120,000 worth of cars and probably a lot more than that. There&#39;s a fundamental idea behind Marxism that elected representatives (I&#39;m quite aware RATM were not elected representatives) would take an average industrial wage ie. the average wage of the working class. Leading from this, most socialists would actually have some comprehension that actual socialists do not have salaries of millions of dollars or would give the majority of this to working class causes. Saying that RATM can be absolved from a basic idea like this is like trying to absolve Bill Gates from being a capitalist because he gives billions to his charity organisation.


Just because you raise the profile of a movement, does not make you any better than anyone else. RATM have been in a position where they were able too, UR has not. Just raising the profile of something is not a contribution to class struggle in itself.

[JasonR]

Originally posted by Drake [email protected] 31 2004, 08:31 AM
Calm down. It&#39;s not like they&#39;re holding children at gunpoint to mass-produce the damn records. As Mao stated, many socialist/communist figures in the past have used ccapitalist mediums in order to express their idea. If you want to be a &#39;purist&#39; about it you shouldn&#39;t even be on the internet.
Very true drake dracoli. I believe Mao Zedong owned a chain of libraries in pre-revolutionary China, they were in fact popular and helped peasants read and become conscious of the world around them, he obviously give a lot of the money to the communist party he was a member of. Its possible to have money, but careabout the poor you know, like Mao did.

[BOZG]

Like Bill Gates?


It&#39;s extremely simplified to claim that once you care about the poor or you give some money to charity that you&#39;re a good person and can be a socialist.

[Individual]

You have no comprehension of socialism whatsoever do you? You cannot possibly compare someone owning a single computer living on quite a basic salary to someone who&#39;s able to afford &#036;120,000 worth of cars and probably a lot more than that. There&#39;s a fundamental idea behind Marxism that elected representatives (I&#39;m quite aware RATM were not elected representatives) would take an average industrial wage ie. the average wage of the working class. Leading from this, most socialists would actually have some comprehension that actual socialists do not have salaries of millions of dollars or would give the majority of this to working class causes. Saying that RATM can be absolved from a basic idea like this is like trying to absolve Bill Gates from being a capitalist because he gives billions to his charity organisation.


Just because you raise the profile of a movement, does not make you any better than anyone else. RATM have been in a position where they were able too, UR has not. Just raising the profile of something is not a contribution to class struggle in itself.

Wohh there... Are you speaking for Urban Rubble now? One of the only things I can say to you about this would be:

Do we live under communist rule? Is this society under Marxist beliefs?

I would think you would know the answer to this. You are implying that RATM are actual socialists? But do you know this for a fact? Don&#39;t get this twisted around to the fact that I am going to defend every action that RATM has done. I am trying to defend the fact that you guys are blind to see the good caused from them.

You ask if I am able to comprehend what socialism is? Can you comprehend the fact that the US is not socialist? You are not practicing socialist beliefs by supporting capitalist companies by owning that computer. Yet you don&#39;t seem to think you are doing anything wrong. Why is that? Ohh because rage has made millions. Well you have made &#39;millions&#39; compared to some third world countries. Yet you don&#39;t seem to feel that way.

Yes I agree with the fact that they have millions. However they had a choice, make millions and spread the message, or don&#39;t spread the message and live your &#39;idealistic&#39; way of socialist beliefs. My point with this, is how can you not see the good of what they tried to do, instead you look upon the fact that they became wealthy in the process. Do you honesly believe that marketing the revolution is all just a conspiracy ploy of theirs to make millions? Why exactly would they goto all this trouble, and spread a cause that they don&#39;t believe in. They obviously believe in it. You act as if RATM are the only anti-capitalists who have used capitalism to their advantage. Heres something new for you, since you like to complain about RATM. Do some research and find all of the anti-capitalist people out there, who have had something to do with capitalism. Start a new thread and ***** about everyone at the same time. Don&#39;t waste all of your energy *****ing at one group of people.

And the reason I compared UR owning a computer to Tom Morello owning two SUVs is because of what UR said. He said something about hungery or dying people:


I mean, that was only a small fraction of the money he makes, so wasting &#036;10 million on a party while there are people dying of hunger in the world is not greedy (as long as you are worth much more than &#036;10 million) ?

So my response to greed must be relative was that the price of his computer is most likely the equivalent of the cost for a small family to survive on food for a year in a third world country. Yet he fails to see that. And has to complain about those people with luxuries he doesn&#39;t have. Yet can&#39;t see the fact that what he does have are luxuries.

BOZG&#39;s: Before you jump out at me and defend UR. Make sure you know exactly what you are saying. Don&#39;t just defend him because. I am not trying to have a personal arguement. And don&#39;t get me wrong that I in any way support capitalism. However open your eyes and realize that at this current time, we do not live under Marxist beliefs. Look at the good that the exposure has done. Don&#39;t be angry at the fact that they drive nice cars.

[JasonR]

Yes but Bill Gates isnt giving money to a revolutionary movement, Mao was scratching up money to build up the communist party, build up a guerrilla movement and a movement to counter the Japanese invaders in WWII. Bill Gates gives a few million dollars, which are pennys to him, to some causes to put computers in classrooms.

[BOZG]

Do we live under communist rule? Is this society under Marxist beliefs?

And so until then we may be as exploitative and greedy as we wish? To be a Marxist is to strive for Marxism and to make revolutionary sacrificies including striving to advance Marxist principles IN A CAPITALIST SOCIETY.




you have made &#39;millions&#39; compared to some third world countries. Yet you don&#39;t seem to feel that way.

I&#39;m sure I have made millions compared to many in the third world but have you thought to take into account the ideas of inflation and cost of living? At the moment because I still love at home, I do well enough but the moment I leave home, I will be in a position where I scrape by. RATM have made LITERAL millions.




You are not practicing socialist beliefs by supporting capitalist companies by owning that computer.

How exactly is owning a computer anti-socialist? Who said I payed for the computer in the first place? I use whatever resources I have at my disposable like any person with common sense. Do not even try compare this to RATM using whatever resources are available.




My point with this, is how can you not see the good of what they tried to do, instead you look upon the fact that they became wealthy in the process.

If you read the first reply in this thread, it was made by me defending RATM spreading their message through a major record label but they&#39;re extensive personal salaries CANNOT be excused in any way. I do not begrudge them having a decent standard of living, hire than that of the "average" person due to the fact that living standards should be increased for all but having 2 &#036;120,000 cars and million dollar mansions is just taking the piss.



You act as if RATM are the only anti-capitalists who have used capitalism to their advantage. Heres something new for you, since you like to complain about RATM.

I&#39;ll refer you to my last point.




So my response to greed must be relative was that the price of his computer is most likely the equivalent of the cost for a small family to survive on food for a year in a third world country.

I&#39;ll refer you to the point about living standards.

[Individual]

I&#39;ll say it again.. Wohh

After reading over it a few times. Your arguements are either repetative or make no sense. And the ones that are repetative, I have already acknowledged with no logical response from yourself. The fact that you have avoided points that should not be avioded. I feel no need to keep repeating myself. The only things I feel need be addressed are you having(whether paid for or not) a computer and a couple other things. Does everyone have a computer? No. But in a fair society, if you do, then everyone else should. Whether you paid for it or not.

You said it yourself:


To be a Marxist is to strive for Marxism

So if you are such a marxist, go buy everyone else a computer. It&#39;s only fair.


If you read the first reply in this thread, it was made by me defending RATM spreading their message through a major record label but they&#39;re extensive personal salaries CANNOT be excused in any way

So you agree with the good of spreading the message? Correct? Ok. So you think that they should have just told the record company: "Oh well guys, you know, we don&#39;t want millions, so you just keep all the money that is supposed to be ours, cuz we don&#39;t want it." Let me get this straight. You think what they did to spread the message was good, however you think they should just leave the millions of earned money with a company that is 100% capitalistic. So it&#39;s their fault for taking money, instead they should have just left it with a company worth billions? Logical I&#39;d say. Real logical?

You have said it yourself the way I feel that RATM have done what they&#39;ve done.


including striving to advance Marxist principles IN A CAPITALIST SOCIETY.

Is this not what RATM has done? Advanced marxist and revolutionary ideas within a capitalist society. They did what needed be to spread the movement within this capitalist society have they not? Used capitalism to their advantage?

I can see the points you are trying to make, however I still believe that the majority of what they have done was good. I don&#39;t feel that this debate will go anywhere.. For the third time. All I ask is to step back and open your eyes for the good.

[BOZG]

The fact that you have avoided points that should not be avioded. I feel no need to keep repeating myself.

What points have I avoided?



So if you are such a marxist, go buy everyone else a computer. It&#39;s only fair.


I have never heard any sort of Marxist theory which exposes the idea that we must all go out and buy each other stuff.



But in a fair society, if you do, then everyone else should.

Of course but you cannot possibly link the idea of someone owning a million dollar house to that.




we don&#39;t want millions, so you just keep all the money that is supposed to be ours, cuz we don&#39;t want it

Where did I say this? I do not think they should amass personal fortunes but that this money should be distributed to revolutionary organisations, activist groups and general groups which wish to overthrow capitalism.




Is this not what RATM has done? Advanced marxist and revolutionary ideas within a capitalist society. They did what needed be to spread the movement within this capitalist society have they not?


Yes they have but to just push ideas is not enough. If Bill Gates was to much the message for Marxism and revolutionary ideas tomorrow, would you support him then? We&#39;ve seen how "revolutionary" groups, trade unions and activists have supposedly pushed Marxist/socialist/revolutionary ideas over the years but have they put their money where their mouth is? (To use a bad phrase)

[Individual]

Can you comprehend the fact that the US is not socialist?


You are implying that RATM are actual socialists? But do you know this for a fact?


Do you honesly believe that marketing the revolution is all just a conspiracy ploy of theirs to make millions?


Heres something new for you, since you like to complain about RATM. Do some research and find all of the anti-capitalist people out there, who have had something to do with capitalism. Start a new thread and ***** about everyone at the same time. Don&#39;t waste all of your energy *****ing at one group of people.

To start off, these are questions needing to be answered. You claim to have answered whether or not we live in a Marxist society. However you have not answered the question. This was your response:


And so until then we may be as exploitative and greedy as we wish? To be a Marxist is to strive for Marxism and to make revolutionary sacrificies including striving to advance Marxist principles IN A CAPITALIST SOCIETY.

Then a response to that, for one, is that you didn&#39;t answer my question. For two, what would then define greedy for you? Are you striving for marxism yourself? Well you and your &#39;family at home&#39; have more money than people in this country. When you move out you will have more money for people in this country. Yet if you were striving for Marxism, as you think RATM should do, then you would have problems with the fact that you have more money. Yes, you have reiterated the fact that RATM has millions. I have understood that. But what exactly do you expect them to do about it. Give one dollar to millions of people to try and even it up? I mean honestly. Get over the fact they have more money. You said it yourself that you do not need to buy things for other people. Why would it be different than giving money?


I have never heard any sort of Marxist theory which exposes the idea that we must all go out and buy each other stuff.

I do not think they should amass personal fortunes but that this money should be distributed to revolutionary organisations, activist groups and general groups which wish to overthrow capitalism.


So you don&#39;t need to buy people things? Yet RATM must go out and donate tons of money because you said? You act as if they don&#39;t donate money? Honestly what do you want them to do with their money? They already have it, so what should they do about it? Would you like for them to burn it? Give it back? Donate all of it? Throw it in the streets? Honestly what would make you just so happy?


Of course but you cannot possibly link the idea of someone owning a million dollar house to that.

Sure I can. This is where you are blind. What makes it ok for you to live comfortably, and not let RATM spend their own money? Let me reiterate, their are people out there who do not have a house, car, or computer. Yet you don&#39;t seem to think that you have anymore money than anyone else. Why is that?


If Bill Gates was to much the message for Marxism and revolutionary ideas tomorrow, would you support him then? We&#39;ve seen how "revolutionary" groups, trade unions and activists have supposedly pushed Marxist/socialist/revolutionary ideas over the years but have they put their money where their mouth is?

So only a select few need to donate money? You may not be a millionaire, but instead of spending money on the internet, why don&#39;t you donate &#036;20 a month to an organization? It would help would it not? But you are blind to see that you should do anything, all because certain people who have more money should do it before yourself. The funny thing is, they donate, and your main problem with them is you say they should donate more. So heres another project for you, besides finding all of the anti-capitalists who have used capitalism, find out the exact amount of money the members of Rage donate to organizations. Before you argue they need to donate more, find the exact figure of how much they do donate. You might be able to find a decent arguement.

Bill Gates is completely out of the issue. For one, he is capitalist king, and has not been representing revolutionary thoughts since his career beginning, let alone at all. So to compare RATM to Bill Gates is completely irrelevant.

To tell you the truth, I am sick of debating this topic. Hopefully for the last time. Take a step back and open your eyes. Look at the good caused.

[Urban Rubble]

Ooh, this is really heating up. :lol:


Yes I can definetely agree with the fact that kids tend to change ways. I was just trying to put forth that even if some of the kids stayed with it, that is more than what would have been.

And I said it&#39;s great that some kids will be drawn to the movement because of a band. Does that mean they deserve those millions of dollars ? Not any more than I deserve a million dollars for getting some of my younger brother&#39;s friends to read the Manifesto.


Not to drag on debate. However what would be your arguement that has brought on more positive(not news programs, or politicians bashing communist beliefs) exposure than Rage?

I&#39;d say the good example nations like Cuba have set. I&#39;d say the example men like Che Guevara, Fidel Castro, Salvador Allende and Ho Chi Minh have set. Though this has largely been offset by U.S propaganda.


My point with "who are you to judge RATM" was how can you downsize their exposure, while you have not spread revolution to the masses.

Do you really believe they have "spread the revolution to the masses" ? Damn, you have a very high opinion of a rock band.


Define hypocrite, or hypocritcal. And how exactly have I been a hypocrite?

You are a hypocrite because you called me out for being judgemental while you yourself (and every other human) are judgemental.


And don&#39;t forget, they aren&#39;t just capitalists, they are of the most shrewd kind&#33; So before you get in a tissy fit. Just remember, you said it, not I.

I&#39;m sorry, I did say that they were Capitalists. I didn&#39;t really mean that. Obviously they don&#39;t own the means of production. What they are is ultra bourgeoisie. They aren&#39;t hiring and firing, but they are getting insanely rich for playing in a rock band.

I have a question, what do you think the crew at their shows make ? I doubt it&#39;s even 1% of what the band makes for one show.


And to answer your question about gold toilets and gold pools. Yes. I just must be that "fucking retarded". I had really thought all capitalists had gold toilets and gold pools. Let alone any. Did you hear I can travel back in time too?

Listen, don&#39;t act like I was wrong to call you stupid for that. It was a stupid question. You asked why they don&#39;t have gold toilets. You acted like because they don&#39;t have gold toilets means they aren&#39;t rich. It was very stupid.


First off, from respect, who are you calling kid? How old are you again? 16-17?

Not that it matters, but I am 21. How old are you ?


And that makes me a kid? Besides this, here goes another Urban Rubble: I NEVER SAID THAT YOU SAID TOM MORELLO WAS EVIL

No, you implied it.


You seem to have no problem having that computer you are typing on. I don&#39;t see you chomping at the bit to go sell it to give back that few hundred dollars to the people dying of hunger.

You are ridiculous.

First off, I bought the parts for this computer and built it myself. And how did I afford that ? I work my ass off on a construction site for 10 hours a day. I didn&#39;t play a few notes on a guitar to get it.

Why don&#39;t I sell it ? Do you remember where I said that I think having luxuries is O.K ? Yes, well, that still stands. I have no problem with living comfortably.


If you are so concerned with the dying and needy people (that most definetely can&#39;t afford that computer, which would, in your case, be looked at as greedy to them) sell that computer, and send away the money.

Again, amazing.

I give what I can to charity, it isn&#39;t very much, but it is something. Remember, I said having luxuries is O.K.


And of course &#036;10 million dollars on a party is outrageous, but so is a thousand dollar computer to those that can barely afford weekly food, clothes, etc

Oh my God. Do you actually think me owning this computer and that guy having a multi million dollar party is the same ?


They found a way to make it in this society. We do not live under communist rule. So at this point in time, nothing is fair

I understand that and I have already pointed out that I don&#39;t expect them to give away their possesions or to even live like normal people.

Here is why I think they are being unfair. They could live very comfortably on &#036;200,000 a year. They would be amazingly well off. If they lived like that, they could feed millions and millions of people with that excess Capital. It would be win win, they would still be rich and could life wonderfully, and they would be feeding alot of people. Do they do that ? No, they spend the money on mansion and expensive cars instead. I don&#39;t expect every rich person to give alot of their fortunes away, but these men claim to be Socialists who are sensitive to the problems of the world, why can&#39;t they live a bit more humble ? Yes, it is a Capitalist society, and by all means, you should try to make life good for yourself, but once you have done that, you should try to make life good for someone else.


And you are trying to tell me you worked 50 hours a week? Hogwash.

Hogwash ? Damn, I wasn&#39;t aware people actually said that. :lol:

Yes, I work between 40 and 50 hours nearly every week, in the rain.


Tell me exactly what company you worked for, and where you did labor (i.e. what part of the city or surrounding area, and what type of labor). I may be able to believe what you have tried to tell me a little better. Not to turn this personal, and call you a liar. However this is extremely hard for me to believe having lived in the Seattle area for close to 10 years, and having done numerous construction and painting jobs.

I work as an electricians apprentice in the suburbs of Seattle. I make &#036;10 an hour and work 40 to 50 hours a week. With taxes taken out that equals around 20 grand per year, maybe a little more. I work just as hard as the guys in the Rage, if not harder. Tell me, why should they make millions for doing work that is enjoyable when I barely scratch by ? I would bow down to those guys if they sacrificed a few million a year and "went down a peg" to a couple hundred thousand a year.


Like I said. We do not live in a communist nation, under communist rule. Of course things are not fair.

Just because we don&#39;t live in a Socialist society does not mean you should disregard your beliefs. They believe in a system that would not allow them to be millionaires, so don&#39;t be a multi millionaire. I know if I won the lottery I would take what I needed to live a comfortable life and distribute the rest.


If you want the truth, I was angered because you are ignorant to the fact that under the current way of this society, the members of Rage have succeeded in life.

I realize they have succeeded at life. I think their success is great, but I think what they have done with their success is wrong. I am all for getting all you can out of the Capitalist system, but as a Socialist I have a duty live like I want others to, so with my success I would make life better for people. Not hole up in a 20 room mansion by myself.

Owning a huge SUV and driving alone in it is pointless, and wastefull. Living in a mansion with 10 or so rooms that you don&#39;t even use it pointless and wasteful.


This in fact does nothing besides bring grudge against one another. Do not take anything to seriously, for we are here for the same reasons.

I understand that. I just get pissed that people can justify living like this. These men have an oppurtunity to do something amazing, and yes, they have done good things, but they aren&#39;t using their positions as effectively as they could be. I don&#39;t think it is right for people to live in mansions, unless perhaps every room was filled with people.

[guerrillaradio]

Originally posted by [email protected] 11 2004, 06:52 PM
We shouldn&#39;t be ashamed by it, we&#39;re using capitalism like a weapon against it self.
I&#39;m sorry I didn&#39;t read past this post (and I don&#39;t think I wanna), but that comment made me laugh.

You think you&#39;re gonna achieve a revolution sitting on the internet discussing defunct metal bands??


Oh and btw, yes I know my username is a Rage song. :lol:

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by guerrillaradio+Feb 3 2004, 06:52 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (guerrillaradio @ Feb 3 2004, 06:52 PM)
[email protected] 11 2004, 06:52 PM
We shouldn&#39;t be ashamed by it, we&#39;re using capitalism like a weapon against it self.
I&#39;m sorry I didn&#39;t read past this post (and I don&#39;t think I wanna), but that comment made me laugh.

You think you&#39;re gonna achieve a revolution sitting on the internet discussing defunct metal bands??


Oh and btw, yes I know my username is a Rage song. :lol: [/b]
Hi GR I thought you quit che-lives...

Ahh well nice to see you etc.

[guerrillaradio]

I flaked outta rehab. :lol:

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 06:58 PM
I flaked outta rehab. :lol:
They all come back, for more...

cant stay away.

:ph34r:

[guerrillaradio]

Is your signature a Far song??

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by [email protected] 3 2004, 07:14 PM
Is your signature a Far song??
Nope...

The top bit is a quote from a film.

the second bit is a line from a Tool song "sober".

[guerrillaradio]

Ah shit yeah I remember.