Israel is a fascist state?

[Akshay!]

Explain by first defining fascism, and then demonstrating how the Zionist entity fits or doesn't fit that description.

[#FF0000]

Just looking at a couple of traditional characteristics of fascism, I think it's pretty clear Israel simply isn't a Fascist state. Not being run by an ultranationalist dictatorship, for one.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Explain by first defining fascism, and then demonstrating how the Zionist entity fits or doesn't fit that description.

I'd broadly define it as a state which semi-officially sanctiones extra-legal enforcers of social peace: the NAZI party doesn't just take parlementary power, but that legal power then gives their extra-legal street-thugs an official backing. By this definition, no Israel is not fascist; it is a relativly brutal settler-state which is trying to marginalize part of the population. Certaintly there are fascist-like organizations who support the zionist project in Israel and elsewhere. The vigilante right-wing settlers are fascist-like in many ways, some of the far-right parties in Israel are fascist-like. But for now, the regular mechanisms of the state work fine in pushing out Palistinians and maintaining social peace within Israel.

If Israel lost US political and economic support, if they lost a popular support in Israel for the zionist project, if the labor-zionist "peace" was broken and jewish workers began to break from zionism and demand that social welfare and equality should be the focus of state activity, not militarizatrion, then there would probably be fascist groups who emerged as the last line of defense of the racist/nationalist project and as a wedge to smash any agitation among jewish workers building solidarity with the palistinian movements.

[Per Levy]

israel is a bourgeois democracy and not a fascist state. you can argue that the israelian state is racist and imperialist but those 2 things work quite well with bourgeois democracys. also israel isnt a one party dictatorship, ruled by a leader figure.

[Sasha]

Ugh... The main problem with israels parlaiment is more that it has to many political parties than to little, which means you always need a coalition government with one of the small extremist ultra-ortodox or settler party's.

[Akshay!]

Just looking at a couple of traditional characteristics of fascism, I think it's pretty clear Israel simply isn't a Fascist state. Not being run by an ultranationalist dictatorship, for one.


israel is a bourgeois democracy and not a fascist state.

It depends. Would you consider the US - before women, blacks, poor whites etc. etc. were considered humans and had any "voting rights", and while it was still annexing territories - a "bourgeois democracy"?


you can argue that the israelian state is racist and imperialist but those 2 things work quite well with bourgeois democracys.

Even if you don't consider it a fascist state, I don't think it's debatable that it goes much further than "normal" imperialist and racist states.


Ugh... The main problem with israels parlaiment is more that it has to many political parties than to little, which means you always need a coalition government with one of the small extremist ultra-ortodox or settler party's.

You mean you don't consider the "big" parties to be "extremist ultra-orthodox or settler parties"??


I'd broadly define it as a state which semi-officially sanctiones extra-legal enforcers of social peace: the NAZI party doesn't just take parlementary power, but that legal power then gives their extra-legal street-thugs an official backing. By this definition, no Israel is not fascist; it is a relativly brutal settler-state which is trying to marginalize part of the population. Certaintly there are fascist-like organizations who support the zionist project in Israel and elsewhere. The vigilante right-wing settlers are fascist-like in many ways, some of the far-right parties in Israel are fascist-like. But for now, the regular mechanisms of the state work fine in pushing out Palistinians and maintaining social peace within Israel.

If Israel lost US political and economic support, if they lost a popular support in Israel for the zionist project, if the labor-zionist "peace" was broken and jewish workers began to break from zionism and demand that social welfare and equality should be the focus of state activity, not militarizatrion, then there would probably be fascist groups who emerged as the last line of defense of the racist/nationalist project and as a wedge to smash any agitation among jewish workers building solidarity with the palistinian movements.

I probably agree that it's not (at least not yet) a fully fascist state, but I think it's pretty undeniable that it has some elements of fascism - ultra-nationalism, extreme racism, colonialism, imperialism, etc.. etc.. I know these can all exist in what some people call a "democracy" but in "democracies" the oppressed minorities have so-called "rights" - like the "right to vote", etc.. and are considered humans (at least in theory).

[#FF0000]

It depends. Would you consider the US - before women, blacks, poor whites etc. etc. were considered humans and had any "voting rights", and while it was still annexing territories - a "bourgeois democracy"?

Yes. Because that is what it was.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Fascist? No.

Characteristics of the third reich? Yes.

Ass to which American liberals kiss? Yes.

White Supremacist, right-wing, theocratic, apartheid regime and US base of operations? Hella-fucking-yes.


Not being run by an ultranationalist dictatorship, for one.

Fairly sure a country that uses a couple of bronze-age tomes to justify racialism, ethnic irredentism, apartheid policies and the forcing of Lebanese children into fucking Christian Fascist militias falls under the classification of ultranationalism.

As an aside , I don't think those children in Gaza getting drowned in white-phosphorus and eviscerated by missile shrapnel have much of a say in Israel's 'democracy'.

[Tjis]

Ugh... The main problem with israels parlaiment is more that it has to many political parties than to little, which means you always need a coalition government with one of the small extremist ultra-ortodox or settler party's.

Could you explain this a bit further? If there's many political parties all over the spectrum, why would a coalition government need the ultra-orthodox? Why not pick any other party?

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I'm afraid I don't know a lot about how Israel's government operates, but from what I know I would disagree that it is a fascist state. Certainly, Israel (as a nation) displays some traits we'd associate with fascism - but frankly most supposedly liberal democracies do. I think as far as I see it, I would still say Israel was a bourgeois democracy - but one that displays a lot more of the features of fascism than most (but not all) others. Is there potential for Israel's current imperialist/nationalist/theocratic elements to foster an increasingly fascist system of government? I would say yes.

[Sasha]

Could you explain this a bit further? If there's many political parties all over the spectrum, why would a coalition government need the ultra-orthodox? Why not pick any other party?

The far left are untouchable because their positions on Palestine, the major partys are all fishing in the same pond and don't like to share responsibility with to much compateters. Normally its 2 or 3 of the "big" ones with 1 ultra orthodox and 1 setler splinter..
They don't really care about the big partys taking all the thunder on most subjects as long as their specific important stuff is safe
The current coalition is the first in a long time without an orthodox party hence why they are only now getting rid of the draft exclusion for religious students.
It's also the reason why they can't get round to the dismantling of the outpost setlements deep in the westbank while this has massive support in the general population.

[Luís Henrique]

Could you explain this a bit further? If there's many political parties all over the spectrum, why would a coalition government need the ultra-orthodox? Why not pick any other party?

Mainstream party A wins 55 seats in parliament; mainstream party B wins 55 seats too. Ultra-orthodox settler party C wins 10 seats in parliament. You need 61 seats to form a government. If parties A and B don't want to form some kind of national union government, they will need to talk with party C and invite it into a coalition. All it takes for a party C to be in a winning situation is to be "centrist" about everything else except its only-issue (religion, and/or settlements).

That's of course a simplification, but it is more or less like Israeli politics have been working for decades.

******************

On the main subject,

unless we want "fascism" to lose any actual meaning and relevance, and use it as a contentless term for everything we dislike, it should be obvious that Israel is not a fascist State. Its parliament is obviously functional (it is very clearly the place where the ruling class makes its political pacts), there is no party-State or State-party, the opposition can voice its disagreements, the police is controlled by the administration and not the other way round, etc.

Not only it is not a fascist State, it is not any kind of dictatorship, except in that very general sence that any State is a class dictatorship over other classes. It is not a military dictatorship, it is not a case of Bonapartism, it is not a clerical dictatorship either.

But I would also have trouble in considering it "a bourgeois democracy" without a few (or indeed a lot of) qualifiers. Yes, the US before the sixties was "a bourgeois democracy", and the citizenship of a huge part of the population was denied. Yes, there has been a time when every "bourgeois democracy" only granted a right to vote to the male half of the people. But such concepts cannot be taken a-historically; what it takes to be considered "a bourgeois democracy" as of 2013 is different, and definitely more strict, than what it took in 1840.

Israel is an apartheid State, like South Africa used to be. Neither were dictatorships in the sence Italy under Mussolini, Austria under Dolfuss, or Argentina under Videla were - or Iran or Syria still are. It can be argued that the US in 1950 was a apartheid State too, and that it was definitely "a bourgeois democracy". Besides the historic argument I raised above (being "a bourgeois democracy" was different in 1950 than in 2013), there are other things to consider. While we should not downplay the role of American mass movement, particularly of the Black movement, in tearing down American apartheid, it is quite clear that the American State was able, and to an extent even willing, to reform itself. There were Supreme Court decisions, Congress acts, and Executive branch actions that are definitely part of the abrogation of apartheid in the US. The South African State was never able to reform itself in such a way; it had to be toppled. I also don't see a similar possibility in the case of Israel; it is not a State that passively relies on traditional racism, but a State that actively promotes discrimination as a fundamental mode of socialisation. I don't think it can reform itself as the US has in the case of Blacks, or most "bourgeois democracies" have in the case of women.

So... no, Israel is not fascist. It isn't a dictatorship either. That doesn't mean it is good, or that it should not be opposed, that it is not authoritarian, militaristic, expansionist, racist, and semi-theocratic, or that it can be reformed into "a bourgeois democracy".

Luís Henrique

[Sasha]

@ jam like a jacobin

"theocratic"? Don't be silly, Israel is as much a theocracy as the US, well, maybe a bit more because of the disproportionate influence of relgious parties as explained above but further its a "secular" bourgeois democracy with a state religion.
The preferential treatment of "Jews" is racist/ethnic not religious based, deeply religious converts or for example the etheopians don't get the same treatment as the secular Russians with a Jewish grandma.

[Luís Henrique]

@ jam like a jacobin

"theocratic"? Don't be silly, Israel is as much a theocracy as the US, well, maybe a bit more because of the disproportionate influence of relgious parties as explained above but further its a "secular" bourgeois democracy with a state religion.

There is a difference, and in my opinion, a huge one.

The United Kingdom is "a (secular) bourgeois democracy with a State religion". The Church of England is its official religion. In practice, this means little more than a ceremonial religious role that the King/Queen must perform as part of his/her limited attributes. People can be Anglican, Presbiterian, Catholic, Muslim, Rastafari or atheists, without important consequences for their lives.

Because this is pretty much irrelevant, there isn't too much interest in rejecting the officialdom of the CoE. But it is not forbidden either; just like you can certainly put up a Republican Party in Britain, you can also run for parliament under the banner of complete secularisation, and if you get elected, you can try and pass legislation to the end of abolishing the official role of the CoE.

I don't know much about British immigration policies, but I am pretty sure that they are not concerned with anyone's religion. Immigrating to Britain and acquiring British citizenship (or is that "subjectship"?) is something that does not relate with what kind of beliefs you hold about the otherworld.

The situation in Israel is starkly different because, while there is a facade of secularism (you do have Muslism members of Knesset, and probably atheist MK too, though probably of that oxymoric kind of atheist that is a "Jewish atheist"), there are effective political limitations concerning the official nature of Judaism (and, in practice, of Orthodox Judaism, as opposed to Conservative or Reform Judaism). Israel is a Jewish State and political parties that openly propose to change this are not allowed to run for parliament. Connected to this there is the huge and dirty issue of Israeli immigration policies. Unlike in Britain, religion plays a big role in Israeli immigration policies. This is clearly understood, and even openly proclaimed, to be directly linked to the "Jewish" nature of the State: Israel organises its immigration policies so that the demographic predominance of Jews isn't challenged. Part of this is the absurd preference for Orthodox Jews in what comes to immigration to Israel. And there are other evidently theocratic enforceable rules in Israel; one of the most ridiculous is the exemption of Orthodox Jews from military service - something that has recently become a political and electoral issue. As far as I know, Anglicans are not exempt from military service in Britain (and indeed, besides being the High Priest of the Anglican superstition, the British monarch is also officially a professional soldier).

So, again... I don't think Israel is a theocracy, in the way Iran or Saudi Arabia are, or Dolfuss' Austria was. But it isn't either an actual secular State like Brazil or France, or even a "secular State with an official religion" like Britain.

Luís Henrique

[Rurkel]

though probably of that oxymoric kind of atheist that is a "Jewish atheist"Since "Jewish", depending on context, can play the role of both ethnic and religious signifier (in Eastern Europe it's predominantly ethnic, with "Jewish" often being in one category with "Polish", "Ukrainian", "Russian" etc. - that's partially as a result of Soviet nationality policy), the distinction between ethnocracy and theocracy are blurred in Israel's case.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

@ jam like a jacobin

"theocratic"? Don't be silly, Israel is as much a theocracy as the US, well, maybe a bit more because of the disproportionate influence of relgious parties as explained above but further its a "secular" bourgeois democracy with a state religion.

It's got a state religion. It's premise is based around ethnic nationalism straight from the Talmud. Almost every excuse made by the right in Israel alludes to this when claims of Palestinian repression and irredentism are brought up. Not to mention that you cannot form a political party if it is concerned with dismantling judaism from the state apparatus.

Israeli nationalism is closely connected with Judaism and this is undeniable. Kids are taught the scriptures in school, for heavens' sake.

Oh, and then there's, you know, this:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/1/21/1232561961477/White-Phosphorus-001.jpg

http://www.uruknet.de/pic.php?f=30leb54.jpg

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-AV763_ISRAEL_G_20090205182131.jpg




The preferential treatment of "Jews" is racist/ethnic not religious based,
This very racism spawns from a religious concept of a 'jewish homeland', as is outlined in the scriptures. Zionists endlessly use abrahamic trash in the same way islamists do in order to justify their racialism.

I honestly don't know what this has to do with what I brought up. Are you seriously claiming that Israel is not both founded and currently based upon a jointly religious and ethnic form of ultranationalism?


deeply religious converts or for example the etheopians don't get the same treatment as the secular Russians with a Jewish grandma.

Hence the fact that it's a white-supremacist shithole.

I don't know what your point is, here. Does the fact that the state of Israel's nationalism is grounded in an ethnic nationalism as much as a religious one really change any part of what I said?

[#FF0000]

Fairly sure a country that uses a couple of bronze-age tomes to justify racialism, ethnic irredentism, apartheid policies and the forcing of Lebanese children into fucking Christian Fascist militias falls under the classification of ultranationalism.

yep but not "ultranationalist dictatorship".

israel sucks but is plainly "not fascist" because all of these things:


ultra-nationalism, extreme racism, colonialism, imperialism,

can, have, and do exist comfortably within liberal democracies.

[Remus Bleys]

The part of the video that is really interesting is 38 seconds in. Revleft wont let me post links, so here. /watch?v=Tjw8U0AcH4Q

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Israel is by no means a fascist state, it is a settler-colonial entity, as the jewish people are by no means native to Palestine and are playing a colonial role in their dispersal of the Palestinians.

Therefore, the only stance a Communist can take is one against colonialism and ethnic nationalism. That stance is a single state solution where the settler population is striped of it's monopoly of power, and all people of Palestine are given equal access to public services and the right to free movement in their own country without fear of discrimination. This of course means that Communists are anti-zionists and oppose Zionism by all means necessary, as the struggle against Zionism is a life and death struggle of the colonized against the colonist, and is a line of demarcation between principled revolutionaries, and opportunists. If I may quote Lenin:


"the Zionist movement represents a greater direct threat to the growth of the class organization of the proletariat than does anti-Semitism.

[Sasha]

It's got a state religion. It's premise is based around ethnic nationalism straight from the Talmud. Almost every excuse made by the right in Israel alludes to this when claims of Palestinian repression and irredentism are brought up. Not to mention that you cannot form a political party if it is concerned with dismantling judaism from the state apparatus.

Israeli nationalism is closely connected with Judaism and this is undeniable. Kids are taught the scriptures in school, for heavens' sake.

Oh, and then there's, you know, this:

http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2009/1/21/1232561961477/White-Phosphorus-001.jpg

http://www.uruknet.de/pic.php?f=30leb54.jpg

http://si.wsj.net/public/resources/images/NA-AV763_ISRAEL_G_20090205182131.jpg




This very racism spawns from a religious concept of a 'jewish homeland', as is outlined in the scriptures. Zionists endlessly use abrahamic trash in the same way islamists do in order to justify their racialism.

I honestly don't know what this has to do with what I brought up. Are you seriously claiming that Israel is not both founded and currently based upon a jointly religious and ethnic form of ultranationalism?




Hence the fact that it's a white-supremacist shithole.

I don't know what your point is, here. Does the fact that the state of Israel's nationalism is grounded in an ethnic nationalism as much as a religious one really change any part of what I said?

The US is "one nation under god", the president swears on the bible etc etc doesn't make it a theocracy.

The Klan was a "christian" organisation, hardly defines them though.

Schools in Israel are obliged to teach "from the bible" this means that Arab schools are free to teach from an islamic or Christian point of view. The fact that the schools are defacto segregated is, again, more ethnic racism than religious. Ethiopian jewish schools suffer the same funding problems as Arab ones.

Not sure what you want to imply with your picture collage, (well actually I do), so ill just leave this here: http://m.newyorker.com/online/blogs/newsdesk/2013/06/israels-surprising-poverty.html

Tldr: orthodox and Israeli arab citizens both live often in abject poverty and both face structural discrimination.

[Sasha]

Anyways, funny that this threads are more often made about Israel and even the US than say Assads syria or gadaffis libya (you know, places with political systems actually inspired in part on facism).

Moved from anti-fascism to learning.

[Rurkel]

There're definitely theocratic elements in Israel, though, as with any "religion-ethnicity" shenanigans it's difficult to separate theocratic vs. ethnocratic. More secular types of Zionism may underline the latter, while more religious - the former.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Anyways, funny that this threads are more often made about Israel and even the US than say Assads syria or gadaffis libya (you know, places with political systems actually inspired in part on facism).

Moved from anti-fascism to learning.

This is simply because that while both Libya and Syria may have a qualitative similarity with the USA, that is they operate in the same bourgeois political form which is oppressive, quantitatively speaking, the U.S and Israel are components in a world imperialist system that is distinct from these countries qualitatively and quantitatively. That is to say, Imperialism is involved in the oppression of more people than Libya and Syria, and that imperialist oppression is a more advanced, tyrannical form of oppression, that is far stronger than the forms of oppression found in Libya and Syria and that therefore there is less of a need to resort to the degree of direct political suppression with in their internal base, while in Syria and Libya it is a matter of survival.

[Sasha]

There're definitely theocratic elements in Israel, though, as with any "religion-ethnicity" shenanigans it's difficult to separate theocratic vs. ethnocratic. More secular types of Zionism may underline the latter, while more religious - the former.

Could be but for a theocracy the clerical class needs to hold tangible political power, which is just not the case in Israel, there is more power concentrated among the Israeli Muslim clerics than the rabbi's, there are just too many different Jewish sects and strands in Israel next to a huge defacto secular population.
The fierce opposition against the "talibanisation" of orthodox dominated neighbourhoods is all the proof one needs.

[Sasha]

I probably agree that it's not (at least not yet) a fully fascist state, but I think it's pretty undeniable that it has some elements of fascism - ultra-nationalism, extreme racism, colonialism, imperialism, etc.. etc.. I know these can all exist in what some people call a "democracy" but in "democracies" the oppressed minorities have so-called "rights" - like the "right to vote", etc.. and are considered humans (at least in theory).

Once again you show to be complete clueless of actual reality, at least what the living circumstances of Arab Israelis are concerned...

[Luís Henrique]

Tldr: orthodox and Israeli arab citizens both live often in abject poverty and both face structural discrimination.

According to the article you linked, poverty among Orthodox (haredi) Jews has to do with their political privileges:


One of several factors behind the decline is an increased ultra-Orthodox influence in Israeli politics, which has resulted in more government subsidies and housing, and new exemptions from the military service that is mandatory for almost everyone else in the country. It has allowed more haredi men to stay out of the work force and devote their time to their faith, and led to an increased isolation from the state’s secular institutions. Perhaps the most important factor adversely affecting the demographic’s employment seems to be the proliferation of an independently run haredi education system that emphasizes religious studies and isn’t obligated to teach core subjects such as science, mathematics, or English past the eighth grade—and often stops well before that. (Schools for haredi children of European descent have existed since the nineteen-fifties, but the boom in the independent education system came with the establishment, in 1987, of schools for ultra-Orthodox children of Middle Eastern and North African descent.)

That's hardly the picture of a secular State that merely has an ad hoc official religion.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Anyways, funny that this threads are more often made about Israel and even the US than say Assads syria or gadaffis libya (you know, places with political systems actually inspired in part on facism).

Ah, that is a different problem. We have plenty of threads about Syria or Libya. And in those, there is always a part of the posters (in which I am usually included) that denounce such dictatorships for what they are - if not exactly fascist, certainly hellholes of persecution against workers and the left. But there is also a significant proportion of revlefters who actually support those anti-working class brutish dictatorships, for reasons varying among an idolisation of violence in the abstract (we need violence to topple the bourgeois rule, ergo violence is good in itself, and since pseudo-nationalist military dictatorships are violent and violence is good, those dictatorships are good), a mistaken idea of socialism as State property, an addiction to tail Soviet foreign politics that has somehow got transferred to Putin's Russia's foreign affairs, a misguided sympathy for Islam, an idea that everything that rubs the US the wrong way must be good because the US is evil, etc, etc, etc, going down to the fact that some of these dictators actually financed "leftist" organisations abroad. There isn't a comparable set of pro-Israeli posters here, and this may give the impression that Israel gets more shit than it deserves.

Also, Israel is certainly much more interesting as an object of study or discussion than Iran or Libya. There are plenty of crackpot third world dictatorships, Islamic or not, but Israel is sui generis. And it is certainly much more "open" than Iran, not to talk about Saudi Arabia, which means we have much more information about it than about Muslim kingdoms and "hereditary republics". It also plays a much more central role in the workings of imperialism (and in the imaging of "democracy") than those tinfoil regimes, at least when such wannabe subfascist tyrannies are not under immediate risk of being toppled.

Luís Henrique

[Sasha]

According to the article you linked, poverty among Orthodox (haredi) Jews has to do with their political privileges:



That's hardly the picture of a secular State that merely has an ad hoc official religion.

Luís Henrique

Ofcourse not, but that ties in very much with what I wrote above, expect to see that privileged position dissapear fast now that there is no orthodox party in power, like said, the exclusion of military service got already axed this week.
Still doesn't make it a theocracy though, after all, Mormon missionaries in the us where exclude from the Vietnam draft too (as Romney profited from). And def not fascist.

[Akshay!]

Once again you show to be complete clueless of actual reality, at least what the living circumstances of Arab Israelis are concerned...

For the millionth time, I don't understand how a Zionist like you can even be allowed to post on a "leftist" forum.

Death to Israel!! Death to Zionism!!
Long live Palestine!!

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

For the millionth time, I don't understand how a Zionist like you can even be allowed to post on a "leftist" forum.

Death to Israel!! Death to Zionism!!
Long live Palestine!!

Pardon comrade, I do not participate in these discussions of Zionism very often so I am not aware of Psycho's position on the matter. But it is doubtful that he is an actual zionist, now he may hold positions that may objectively provide material support for Israel (just like my position of neutrality for Syria may objectivly support Assad or the FSA depending on the particular moment in time). So while he may have a position that ought to be critiqued, until there is concrete evidence that he is a Zionist, then his position should not be misrepresented as such.

[Sotionov]

Nationalism ✔
Imperialism ✔
Authoritarianism (to the point of apartheid) ✔

[Akshay!]

Pardon comrade, I do not participate in these discussions of Zionism very often so I am not aware of Psycho's position on the matter. But it is doubtful that he is an actual zionist, now he may hold positions that may objectively provide material support for Israel (just like my position of neutrality for Syria may objectivly support Assad or the FSA depending on the particular moment in time). So while he may have a position that ought to be critiqued, until there is concrete evidence that he is a Zionist, then his position should not be misrepresented as such.

Ok I will quote psycho himself -


But fact is that that was originally the idea for the Zionists that went to Palestine, that material/historic conditions changed this can't mean you can discard the people who want to return/hold true to this ideal. To invoke Russia again, you would not accept that communism equals Stalinism just because a majority of ignorant people think this to be the case.
(here - http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2615774#post2615774)
In other words, Zionism was a good idea like socialism, but wasn't implemented correctly.


But those Israeli didn't just show up one day and settled, without the holocaust the Jewish population would have seen a far smaller/steadier increase probably leading to a stable multi ethnic secular state, early labour-zionism unmistakingly helped Palestine devellop from the backwater colonony it was at the time.
(here - http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2615784#post2615784)
If this is not Zionism, what is??


I just don't play favorism over some crypto anti-semitism...
(here - http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2615837#post2615837)
He equates anti-Zionism with antisemitism. Isn't that a weird way of being an anti-zionist??

Equated anti-zionism with antisemitism again here - http://www.revleft.com/vb/showthread.php?p=2616173#post2616173

More zionism - http://www.revleft.com/vb/showpost.php?p=2616947&postcount=70

And his defense of Israeli treatment of Arabs in this thread adds to this.
I could go on like this and quote hundreds of his posts defending Israel and Zionism but the point is clear.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Death to Israel!! Death to Zionism!!
Long live Palestine!!

Just quickly - how can you denounce Israel for its nationalism (and rightly so), yet say shit like 'long live Palestine'?

Israel is not a fascist state. It has horrendously authoritarian elements and exudes a 'special' kind of apartheid-related racism, but as for fascist state no, as there is some sort of 'bourgeois democracy' operating there, and none of the main parties are fascist by ideology, rather they all share the ideology of Zionism.

So whether you view the Israeli state as fascist comes down to whether you equate Zionism and fascism, which is something I would be hesitant to do.

[Sasha]

Sigh, i guess there is little point in explaining that "backwater colony" referred to its placement in the British colonial system and the alocation of British recourses that brought, not an value judgement of the then population.
And yes, you are an anti-semite, there is no other explanation for your hysteric obsession with both Israel and me...

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Sigh, i guess there is little point in explaining that "backwater colony" referred to its placement in the British colonial system and the alocation of British recourses that brought, not an value judgement of the then population.
And yes, you are an anti-semite, there is no other explanation for your hysteric obsession with both Israel and me...

1) But Palestein never ceased being a colony in the imperial system, it simply changed hands from Britian to Israel

2) Anti-Semetism is not Anti-Zionism. No one is "obsessed" with Israel, it;s just that we support anti colonial resistance wherever it takes place.

And your notion of "Antisemitism" is liberal absurdity. There is no structural anti-semetism in western society, Jews find themselves in a better position than whites. Until there is structural oppression against Jews in the west, I will acknowledge and respect such an accusation, and once structural oppression ceases against Palestinian arabs then I will stop being "obsessed" with anti-zionism. Because in regards to being to harsh about antisemitism, I am sorry, but I am a Marxist. I do not care about your feelings. If there is no oppression, there is no racism. I will say whatever I like about the horrible things I wish on my class enemies, but there is no classism until structural oppression exists. So I am not sorry if my Anti-Zionism is offensive.

[#FF0000]

Nationalism ✔
Imperialism ✔
Authoritarianism (to the point of apartheid) ✔

These are not exclusive to Fascism.

[Akshay!]

The problem with this discussion is that evidence, facts, etc.. lose all meaning. If someone says something against Israel or Zionism, he'd immediately be labelled an "anti-semite" as if that was an argument.

And yes psycho you didn't mean
"zionism unmistakingly helped Palestine devellop from the backwater colonony it was at the time"
when you said
"zionism unmistakingly helped Palestine devellop from the backwater colonony it was at the time".

And you didn't mean
"originally the idea for the Zionists that went to Palestine, that material/historic conditions changed this can't mean you can discard the people who want to return/hold true to this ideal"
when you said
"originally the idea for the Zionists that went to Palestine, that material/historic conditions changed this can't mean you can discard the people who want to return/hold true to this ideal".

And you didn't mean to label every single anti-zionist you encountered in any of the discussions on revleft as an "anti-semite" (as you did in this thread too, thanks for proving my point!).

And you didn't ban 3 people (actually there are dozens, but I know of at least 3) for being anti-zionist.

Even though I can prove every single assertion I made, all of these are lies, and everyone who's against Zionism is an anti-semitic Nazi. :laugh:

[Sasha]

I assume your iq rivals your shoesize by not much...

[Akshay!]

I assume your iq rivals your shoesize by not much...

As comrade The Boss said,


This is the learning forum, so please try to make your answers go beyond some snappy phrase. Nobody can really be expected to learn anything from the post you just made. Please make an effort to be more constructive - as i've said, this is a forum for learning.

[Sasha]

Says you... Oh, and how did this end up in the learning forum again instead of utterly embaressingly in the anti-facism forum where some dolt posted it?...

Anyways, I'm a Zionist, you convinced the world, too bad there are no more Zionists like me though, you know, those kind who build schools in Palestine with their holocaust restitution money, you know Zionists like me and my family, Zionists who refuse to visit Israel, who refused Israeli citizenship even though they where made stateless by the dutch state for fighting in the Spanish civilwar, etc etc. Would be quite usefull for the Palestinians, maybe even more useful than loudmouth nutcases like you..

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Says you... Oh, and how did this end up in the learning forum again instead of utterly embaressingly in the anti-facism forum where some dolt posted it?...

Anyways, I'm a Zionist, you convinced the world, too bad there are no more Zionists like me though, you know, those kind who build schools in Palestine with their holocaust restitution money, you know Zionists like me and my family, Zionists who refuse to visit Israel, who refused Israeli citizenship even though they where made stateless by the dutch state for fighting in the Spanish civilwar, etc etc. Would be quite usefull for the Palestinians, maybe even more useful than loudmouth nutcases like you..

First of all, we have no way to say that is true. I could claim my revolutionary credibility is more legitimate than yours because I spent some time serving in the Indian PLA, but that is meaningless on the internet since there is no way to prove it.

Second, lifestylism does not equate political content. Morrisssey donated a large portion of his fortune to Love Music Hate Racism, but he can still be quoted as saying: "you can't help but feel the Chinese are a sub-species". So the fact that you might have given them some money is irrelevant when you use the same excuse that the British used to colonize Africa to justify Israel

[Sasha]

And your notion of "Antisemitism" is liberal absurdity. There is no structural anti-semetism in western society, Jews find themselves in a better position than whites. Until there is structural oppression against Jews in the west, I will acknowledge and respect such an accusation, and once structural oppression ceases against Palestinian arabs they will stop being "obsessed" with anti-zionism. Because in regards to being to harsh about antisemitism, I am sorry, but I am a Marxist. I do not care about your feelings. If there is no oppression, there is no racism. I will say whatever I like about the horrible things I wish on my class enemies, but there is no classism until structural oppression exists. So I am not sorry if my Anti-Zionism is offensive.

Damn, I must have imaging those swastikas painted on my front door as a kid, I must have imagined getting assaulted for using my moms last name, I must have imagined never knowing most of my family nor being able to visit their graves because they got murdered and burned a mere 60 years ago. I must have imagined going to weddings and bar mitzwas with machinegun toting policemen and bomb sniffing dogs standing guard in front of the sjoel. I must have imagined the Jewish schools here getting shot at and firebombed

There is no anti-Semitism? Fuck you, and fuck your racist apologism

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Damn, I must have imaging those swastikas painted on my front door as a kid, I must have imagined getting assaulted for using my moms last name, I must have imagined never knowing most of my family nor being able to visit their graves because they got murdered and burned a mere 60 years ago. I must have imagined going to weddings and bar mitzwas with machinegun toting policemen and bomb sniffing dogs standing guard in front of the sjoel. I must have imagined the Jewish schools here getting shot at and firebombed

There is no anti-Semitism? Fuck you, and fuck your racist apologism

Ah yes! I am the racist! Silly me! Clearly my statement that the Palestinian people were in need of civilizing from Israeli settler colonialism is racist.

Oh wait, you said that.

And now that your racism has been shown for all of us to see, you are simply lashing out with appeals to emotion. We are presented the context for none of these events, their location, their time in history, or any proof that they actually happened. And in the end, it is irrelevant to what is being argued.

What is true, is that in the U.S, which is the primary power holding Israel together, there is no material antisemitism to the point that jewish people earn on average more than whites. That is not to say that there aren't people who don't hate jews, but that this does no represent a structural oppression. There are people who hate everyone in the U.S, if I may also bring in a irrelevant story of my own, when my father was growing up in the 70 in Brookyln, he was regularly beaten up by the local black community for being white. Does that prove structural racism, that black people are in fact oppressing a white minority? No, it proves noting other than the fact that people are dicks. No one is in favor of people being dicks.

And on another note, since I want to avoid using unprovable stories, the Trayor Martin killing was done by a hispanic male, does that mean that hispanics represent the primary oppressor of blacks? No, yes there may have been discrimination involved, but not structural racism.

Likewise, I do not know where you live. There are many countries that do have antisemitism in their political structure. But I am talking about Israel and the U.S.

[Sasha]

There is no structural anti-semetism in western society

Or was this one of the "world-series", "world-bowl" kind of things where western society is actually limited to the US? (though also there you will still find many a golf-club or rotary that refuses jews membership)

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Or was this one of the "world-series", "world-bowl" kind of things where western society is actually limited to the US? (though also there you will still find many a golf-club or rotary that refuses jews membership)

Ok, I'll self criticize, I should have said in the U.S.

Now let's look at your remark, shall we?


zionism unmistakingly helped Palestine devellop from the backwater colonony it was at the time.

Let's play around with some words, shall we?


Apartheid unmistakingly helped South Africa devellop from the backwater colonony it was at the time.

Now sure, Israel is not an Apartheid state, if we go by a literal and technical definition of Apartheid, but both are racist, settler colonialist regimes where the same principles apply.

Of course, the difference between my remark and yours is that mine is a mistake, that is it did not communicate what was intended, and I am not attempting to defend it and am now amending my error. Your remark represents very clear political sentiment which outlines a very clear political position.

Deflecting won't help you.

[Le Libérer]

Thread closed. It's clearly gotten out of hand and cannot be steered back on path. I'm not sure the outcome of some of the members who have crossed the line, but administrative action is coming.

[Sasha]

Now sure, Israel is not an Apartheid state, if we go by a literal and technical definition of Apartheid, but both are racist, settler colonialist regimes where the same principles apply.

Of course, the difference between my remark and yours is that mine is a mistake, that is it did not communicate what was intended, and I am not attempting to defend it and am now amending my error. Your remark represents very clear political sentiment which outlines a very clear political position.

Deflecting won't help you.

Funny thing is though that i have, always have, consequently called israel a (defacto) apartheid state
( i must say that i reserve the word regime for dictatorships though)
But i have found out that it doesnt matter what i actually say nor think, some people either just dont read what i write or just cant help themselves to misinterpreted anything and all as proof of their pre-concieved notion that im an raging zionist.
Because apperently anyone who wants to stick to actual facts when it comes to the israeli/palestinian problem (like "israel might be a racist abomination, calling it fascist is stupid and counterproductive" or "like other leftist currents that swung hard to the right, like stalinism, we should judge zionism for what it became, that doesnt mean we should discard its leftist roots nor analyses where it went wrong") is an zionist... Funny that.

Edit: sorry debs, we cross posted, sorry, your are right for closing this trainwreck..