Titoism,what do you think of Mashal Tito [Archive]

Comrade Zeke

11th January 2004, 18:22

Marshal Tito was a Communist leader like no other Communist leader introducing a free Market econmey was in Communism that effectivly deffied the west and the east. Marshal Tito came in power in 1945 head of the Yugoslavian Communist party. He was the only Communist leader that efectivelty took back his country with out Soviet help. His Partisan army of 150,000 men drove the reniments of the Germans and royalist,impreslist Chenicks out of Yugoslavia right when Berlin was about to fall to the Russians. In 1948 he said Fuck you to Stalin and broke off with the eastern Soviet Evil Empire. His country was the most florosusing country in Eastern Eroupe. The Russians tried to send spies into Yugoslavia but they failed. Yugoslavs were happy under Tito's rule hardely anyone left the country,most people went to Yugoslavia to get away from the corrupt Communist Goverments. In the 1960s and 70s Yugoslavia was booming it traded with the west but did not become a NATO country. Marshal Tito traveled all over and set up relations with many third world countries. He traded with them and was one of the most loved leaders in history. In Yugoslavia people wernt forced to work on collective farms!! They could choose their own jobs. There were Elecetions and Marshal Tito just kept getting voted in with over 77% of the vote. Tito never torrmented his people like Stalin,Mao or Ceasuscu. He was loved and admired and when he died the Yugoslavian people cryed knowing that it was the end of their golden age.
The End Comments anyone?? :D

Soviet power supreme

11th January 2004, 19:56

Yep they cryed.
http://www.titoville.com/images/nogomet.jpg

He did a good job on the Balkan's nationalities question.He was also a main factor on that pact which was made by many third world countries in 1961 in Belgrad.I dont remember what was it's name. :(

redstar2000

12th January 2004, 00:27

Tito never tormented his people like Stalin, Mao or Ceausescu. He was loved and admired and when he died the Yugoslavian people cried knowing that it was the end of their golden age.

Yeah, I suspect many of them did. After drying their eyes, they returned to their old tradition of mutual slaughter.

A rather strange sort of "golden age", don't you think? One that ends the way it did, I mean.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

Pete

12th January 2004, 02:39

I dont remember what was it's name

I think it was the "Unaligned" movement.

Comrade Zeke

12th January 2004, 04:26

Those poor Bosnias and Croatias and Serbs and many others imagen if their country never split? to bad marshal Tito had to die. :(

Comrade Ceausescu

12th January 2004, 04:31

Tito was not a good guy. He was an extreme Khrushchevite. I would say that Yugoslavia under Tito had some socialistic elements, so it was not a bad country to have diplomatic realations with if you were a socialist country, but still Tito was an extreme revisionist.

Comrade Zeke

12th January 2004, 05:15

Comrade Ceaususcu,I have chanllenged you on the President Of Romania Nicole Ceaususcu do I need to tell you of how Tito is a better President then Nicole Ceaususcu. I do enjoy having these debates with you they are very entertaining.

Comrade,Zeke. <_<

Comrade Ceausescu

12th January 2004, 05:22

I do not advocate free market policies.

commie kg

12th January 2004, 17:37

Ceausescu and Tito were actually good buddies, you know. There was alot of behind the scenes dealings between the two...

antieverything

13th January 2004, 22:52

The experiments in market socialism were somewhat successful--Yugoslavia maintained the world's highest growth rate for many years...yet Tito's economists made one major and stupid error--turning over ownership to the workers currently employed in an enterprise as opposed to changing the structure of state enterprises from state-run to worker-run cooperatives democratically controlled with a one-employee-one-vote system. Tito did well to recognize the efficiency of a market price mechanism but he succeeded in creating a "Red Beaurocracy" as well. Well, that sure sucks!

Don't Change Your Name

14th January 2004, 02:02

I don't have much knowledge about him but so far he seems better than others

Pete

14th January 2004, 02:39

For Zeke

General A.A.Vlasov

22nd January 2004, 08:46

But I can't forgive him one thing...death of Draja Mihailovich!
Why they didn't united? - Because Tito wanted to have absolute power!...He didn't wanted to share this power with Draja!... :angry:

...AND! Don't call Draja a fascist collaborator, because he wasn't!!!

Edelweiss

22nd January 2004, 09:05

I think the probaply greatest achievement of Tito was not his experiments in market socialism, but his achievements of peacefully unifying so many ethnic groups, which such a long history of wars, with equal rights in one socialist nation. I think that is the way to go, not the foolish idea of ethnic "clean" states, and the backward idea that every ethnic group needs it's own nation, which is responisble for duzens of useless wars and millions of deaths around the world.

General A.A.Vlasov

22nd January 2004, 09:16

...may be... <_<

mia wallace

22nd January 2004, 09:53

i think that josip broz tito was raelly a great man... he ruled my country (i'm from croatia, and croatia was in yugoslavia) and people really loved him... the problem bout croatia's wish to become independent started after his death because the things weren't so good anymore. <_< at least that's what i've heard - i wasn't born yet when he ruled :unsure:

Looter

22nd January 2004, 12:17

Tito betrayed Communism and tried to play both ends from the middle, as a result he did not haver to bear the burden of the Cold War, but once the Soviet Union was destroyed, it is countries like Yugoslavia, Albania and Iraq found that they had no one to protect them from the Evil Americans and their insatiable lust for blood, wheras hardline Communist regimes like Cuba and Korea which were portrayed as Soviet puppets were able to stand up on their own. Let that be a lesson especilly to you Trotskyites, when you sell your soul to the Beast and betray the Savior of the Human Race, one day the Beast will come to collect what is his, but I guess Trotskyites are determined to never accomplish anything, so you have nothing to lose.

Edelweiss

22nd January 2004, 12:43

Originally posted by [email protected] 22 2004, 03:17 PM
Tito betrayed Communism and tried to play both ends from the middle, as a result he did not haver to bear the burden of the Cold War, but once the Soviet Union was destroyed, it is countries like Yugoslavia, Albania and Iraq found that they had no one to protect them from the Evil Americans and their insatiable lust for blood, wheras hardline Communist regimes like Cuba and Korea which were portrayed as Soviet puppets were able to stand up on their own. Let that be a lesson especilly to you Trotskyites, when you sell your soul to the Beast and betray the Savior of the Human Race, one day the Beast will come to collect what is his, but I guess Trotskyites are determined to never accomplish anything, so you have nothing to lose.
LOL, you Stalinists have a special preference to write in pompous, meaningless and unobjective sentences, right? Ridiculous!

Comrade Zeke

24th January 2004, 07:29

What the fuck lotter.....that is the one thing TIto did not realy on the gay Soviet Union. Yugoslavia stopped all trade with Mother Russia in 1948. The Yugoslavian people's liberation army was very trained and could take on the Soviet Union anyday. Yugoslavia protected from Americans I laugh at you,you foolish man. And although I think Castro after TIto was the best Communist leader he relied hevily on Imports from the Soviet Union. Yugoslavia was free......more then any other Communist system. And the Soveit Union was corrupt and evil. Yugoslavia had the freedom for people to make there own system and it was great. Looter Americans are evil.......THe nation is evil not Americans themeselfs.Because I am one I myself could be desedent from Tito.......my ansestors are from Kumervic' in Croatia.
Zeke :D

elbranio

26th January 2004, 00:22

Zeke! Tito was born in Kumrovec !!! I agree with you that life in Yugoslavia was much better then life in USSR. But it wasn't so great after all. People in Yugoslavia never had the freedom to make their own system and they weren't as free as you think. If they didn't think as they should or even if UDBA ( Yugoslav version of KGB ) suspected that they don't, they were sent in camps for political prisoners for example Goli otok ( Naked island ). After the WW2 in 1945 200.000 people were killed without any trials which is not as much as 25 millions that were kiled in USSR under Stalin but it's not a small number. So if you're talking about how things were in Yugoslavia you must get some background on the issue.
When we are talking about the best communist leaders tell me what do you think about Salvador Allende ?
:hammer: ElBranio

Comrade Zeke

26th January 2004, 06:26

Hello Elbaranio whelcome to Che Lives and I'm the most liberal Communist you will meet on in this forum. Now let me explain some things about the diffrences between Yugosalvia and the USSR. First off people were forced to work on the collective farms in the Soveit Union. In Yugoslavia and yes I have done reserch) the communist goverment instated regular people from the street.....they then formed seprate communes so the jobs became eqauly destrubated. The tourist industry was owned by some forign investors just so the Yugoslav Utopia didn't collapse. The Industry such as the bike stores,clocks shops,Metal works,car facotries and such were all owned by the peole. Best of all the people elected there bosses,After the goverment gave them options. Although there was that political prison on Goli otok ( Naked island) most of the prisoners that went there were Royalist supporters of Draja Mihailovich. Draja although he fought for a united Yugoslavia he beilive in ethnic clensing! Although there was the secret police trust me we have secret police in America called the CIA lol so its not much diffrent.The goods made in Yugoslavia were not shaby because the people formed small busienss that kept the econmoy going. Best of all the goverment gave free homes,free jobs,free health care that was good nest Italian doctors from Italy. Yugoslavs elected most of the leaders of the govermnet. Except Tito who was proclaimed president for life. And Yugoslavia set up peaceful realtions with the third world. NOW Sallvador Allende I think was one of the best Communist leaders because he was accaully elected!! And Chile Inproved under his rule...to bad the fuck up C.I.A had to support an uprsing against him. :angry:

Solace

26th January 2004, 17:11

I'm the most liberal Communist you will meet on in this forum

I don't know why, but sometimes I get the urge to slap people.

I think the probaply greatest achievement of Tito (...) [is] his achievements of peacefully unifying so many ethnic groups.

On the surface yes. Tito ruled for over 30 years. While in the power, the conflict between Croats and Serbs seemed to be over. But when he left, the country start to desintagrate soon leading to a Civil War.

When the bourgeoisie was smashed, Tito did not really take policies to tame nationalism. Following the Marxist-Leninist view, he saw nationalism as the bourgeois ideology. So, he thought eleminating one would eliminate the other, directly. I don't remember any concrete policies to unite the people; they were still stuck in their republics. The races were still very seperated, even in universities.

Tito did not really left something tangible for the country. I don't know who is to blame for that. Capitalism or Tito himself.

commie kg

26th January 2004, 17:21

I have taken alot of interest in the Balkan conflict lately, mostly from talking to my grandmother about life in Yugoslavia before and during the socialist period.

The conflict between the Serbs and Croats is really just a religious conflict. Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes are technically the same ethnic group, rifts between them have grown due to the religious diversity of the area. The Croats and Slovenes are Catholic; the Serbs, Montenegrins, and Macedonians are Orthodox; and the Bosniacs and Albanian minority are Muslim.

Tito may heve been to control the hatred a little better by really cracking down on religion.

The Slavs in the Balkans just chose a really bad place to settle, how were they supposed to know that the region would be prized by every imperial power in the coming centuries? :P

I'm reading a good book about it: My Native Land by Louis Adamic.

Solace

26th January 2004, 17:33

The conflict between the Serbs and Croats is really just a religious conflict. Serbs, Croats, and Slovenes are technically the same ethnic group, rifts between them have grown due to the religious diversity of the area. The Croats and Slovenes are Catholic; the Serbs, Montenegrins, and Macedonians are Orthodox; and the Bosniacs and Albanian minority are Muslim.

Weeeeee! You simplify way too much.

Part I. The past

Chapter 1. The ethnical aspects

The Middle Ages began in the Balkans with the settlement of the Slavs in the former Roman provinces during the 7th century. A part of the autochthonous population escaped in highlands or in peripheral areas, while other people of Roman and Greek origin were assimilated by the newcomers during the 7th-9th centuries. The initial Slavic unity was split when several states appeared in the 7th-10th centuries. The different ways of conversion to Christianity had great consequences for the emergence of the Balkan Slavic peoples. Serbs, Bosnians and Croats are speaking the same language and are in fact the same people, but the opposite denominations cancelled this unity.

The Slavs dramatically changed the ethnical situation of the Balkan Peninsula. They expanded over all this area, including Macedonia and Greece, where they settled in large number in the lower regions. The ethnic mosaic from Macedonia and Kosovo resulted from the mixing of the new populations settled in low areas with the ancient populations retired in high areas. The Slavs from Greece were Hellenized after the Byzantine recovery, during the 9th century. The Slavic area became thus smaller, but further events brought new Slavic populations in Macedonia (the Serbian colonization in the 14th century). The Ottoman conquests caused an opposite movement of the Slavic population, from Macedonia and Kosovo to the north. The Turkish colonization started in 1354 added a new element in the intricate ethnic structure of several Balkan areas, especially in southern Bulgaria, Macedonia, Kosovo and Bosnia.

Besides the Greeks, the Balkan Peninsula is peopled by two other ethnical groups that are not Slavic: the Albanians and the Vlachs (or Aroumanians). The very disputed origin of the Albanians will be discussed in the chapter II. 1. The Albanians spread over large areas after the 13th century. In this way they caused new changes in the ethnic structure of Kosovo and Macedonia, especially after they entered in the service of the Ottoman Empire as new Muslims. The Albanians were already present in Kosovo before the Ottoman conquest, but their number increased very much after this event, while many Serbs drove away the region.

The Vlachs are a people of Roman origin, born in the Romanized regions of Macedonia, most likely with the contribution of some groups immigrated from the Lower Danube after the Slavic invasions. Because their favorite occupation was the shepherding, the Vlachs spread in many areas. The medieval Vlachs lived in great number in Macedonia, Kosovo, Albania and Thessaly. Smaller Vlach communities are attested in Bulgaria, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Croatia. Some of them were assimilated by the Bulgarians, Serbs and Greeks, but other are still living in several Balkan areas. Being scattered in many groups, the Vlachs were not able to establish their own state and in this way they became a minority in all the Balkan states.

The deportations and colonizations ordered by the Bulgarian, Byzantine and Ottoman administrations also changed the ethnic structure of the Balkan Peninsula. These movements concerned especially Macedonia, the plain areas of Bulgaria, and Bosnia.

The various historical events transformed the Balkan Peninsula into a very intricate ethnic mosaic, where no people has the majority within a great area. Because in many cases the same territory was peopled by several ethnies one after another, nobody can claim unlimited historical rights upon it.

The medieval origins of the Balkan conflict areas (http://www.geocities.com/amadgearu/focare.html)

Comrade Zeke

27th January 2004, 01:15

Yes Solance I know that there was big civil war after Tito died! Lol but still he kept the "South Slavs united under one banner for almost 35 years you have to give him credit. Although they were seperated in their "little republics as you would refear it there all still Yugoslavians. I once talked to a Serbian man on the Internet.......I didn't accually know he was Serbian intill he told me but before he told me I asked him what race are you from Yugoslavia......He said "Race,what race,we are all Yugoslavians in Serbia,Croatia,Macadonia,Slovenia,Monternago,Bosni a and Herzgovia.So he said I may be from Sebia but I will always be a Yugoslavian. The truth is there all south slavic whether they like it or not.
Comrade Zeke :D

Solace

27th January 2004, 02:26

Yes Solance I know that there was big civil war after Tito died!

I don’t doubt your knowledge of the facts, but rather your rational opinion on it. Sometimes your English skills as well.

Lol but still he kept the "South Slavs united under one banner for almost 35 years you have to give him credit.

This unity is artificial. It lays on police and military control rather than concrete measures for conciliation. Instead of working efficiently with the differences present in the people, he blissfully mixed everything together ignoring centuries of tensions and different historical background. As if everything would disappear once the bourgeoisie was eradicated. That’s fantasy. If the workers were united in anyway then it’s by military force!

If the “South Slavs” were really “united”, I don’t think the bloody war would have followed. Tito just post-poned it.

And I would never give credit to a Stalinist.

Although they were seperated in their "little republics as you would refear it there all still Yugoslavians.

They were not only seperated, they were confined. I’ll keep up with the university example. First off, students were not encouraged to go study outside their republics. It was also hard for professors to teach outside their republic. Not national universities were created.

Guess what? I’ve met a Serbian too! It’s he who told me about that University thing. <_<

The truth is there all south Slavic whether they like it or not.

History showed that the “I don’t like it part” weights more in the balance than the “truth” you are stating.

elbranio

27th January 2004, 02:29

Zeke I'm glad we agree on Allende but I can't agree with your thoughts on Yugoslavia.
- Draze Mihajlovic and his royalists were executed in years 1945- 1948 so they were sent only to their graves not to Goli otok. Goli otok was closed in early 1980. In Yugoslavia we called it island of death. If case i didn't tell you before i come from Slovenia. And Draze Mihajlovic wasn't for ethnic clensing. You must understand something. Croatian paramilitary group called Ustasi killed 300.000 serbs in so called camps of death like Jasenovac. The things around Draze Mihajlovic and his role in war for Balkan in WW2 is very complexed. And trust me I'm no big fan of Draza or Royalists.
- About elections : You had a choice between two people from Communist party of Yugoslavia. Orders to them came from the top of the party so it didn't really matter who did you vote for. Only difference was in appearance so if that's for you fair voting ??
- People never owned any industry in Yugoslavia. We had thing called self- managment invented by Edvard Kardelj but that was only fictional. Everything in Yugoslavia was in the hands of Communist party.
- As i said it was better than USSR but it was still TOTALITARISM and TITO was still a dictator.

You must understand that i believe in communist ideas, but they had nothing to do with systems in Russia and Yugoslavia. You can't kill people just because they disagree with you or because they don't support your ideas.
For me Chile was a great chance for Communism to show the world that it's possible to create a righteous society without killing and dictatorship.

Tito kept South Slavs together for 35 years with IRON FIST Zeke. And I don't consider myself Yugoslavian. Not after the tanks of Yugoslav army drove five meters from my home with their barrels pointed at my house.
And South Slavs are not a nation. In Europe you also how Roman nations like Italians and French and they don't live in same country.
Louis Adamic is not really respected historical author and if you read his book it's just his point of view.
Things here are so complicated that you shouldn't simplify them.
I'm gonna graduate in History this autumun on University in Maribor and I learned a lot about history of Balkan and problems related to that because this is history of my homeland.
Truth about TITO's Yugoslavia is not yet known. For example mass graveyard was found in village near my home and bones of over 300 people killed by Partisans including women and children.
If you are interested in Tito and Yugoslavia I'll be glad to answer all your questions and don't think i want to put TITO in a bad light but it wasn't as ideal as you think.
:hammer: El Branio

Enver Hoxha

27th January 2004, 18:34

Ah I'm not sure how many times it's been shown that Tito was nothing more than a petty little Tyrant who sucked up to America but also (and here's the key part) set up what was a Capitalist Country. Yugoslavia had less 'socialist' things about it than Britain.

It's amazing that when people have been shown the facts about Tito they go off only to start another thread moths later declaring. 'Yeah Tito rules, Stalin was a Gay-Nazi'.

elbranio

27th January 2004, 20:01

Enver, I woudn't go so far and say that Tito was nothing more than petty tyrant and if you compare him to Stalin he was innocent as Mother Teresa. I can't understand how can any of you people even say anything good about Stalin when he was nothing more than a bloodthirsty animal and his only goal was to rule in Europe. For me Stalin was a sorry excuse for a communist. And in this time when KGB and USSR archives are already open and you can see what was going on in USSR under Stalin.
I don't understand where have you came up with a idea about Yugoslavia and Britain. It's so silly that it's not worth to say anything to such nonsens.
:hammer: El Branio

Enver Hoxha

28th January 2004, 10:22

Why was Tito innocent. The reason he got over a Billion dollars of the U$A wasn't because he was a 'good Commie' but because he never even bothered to carry out a Socialist revolution. It was under Tito that thugs like Milosevich and Tudgman gained prominence. It was Tito that the Muslims and Albanians were persecuted.

And I have seen the archives in the USSR, they reveal that everything the west (including Hitler) said about life in the USSR under Stalin is complete rubbish. The U$A has more prisoners in prison today than the USSR ever had.

Anyway this has nothing to do with Stalin and everything to do with revisionists like Tito. I bring up Britain because that's what a Daily Mail correspondent said at the time, 'Yugoslavia looks likely to become less socialist than Britain' in response to Tito's 'Market Socailism'.

elbranio

28th January 2004, 12:58

Enver, you misunderstood me. I didn't say Tito was innocent, far from that. I don't know what do you mean by ''good Commie''. In 1948 Tito break up ties with Stalin beacause he didn't agree with Stalin politics about eastern Europe. Stalin wanted to control everything. In every other country in eastern Europe Stalin put his men in charge of Army and nothing coudn't be done without his approval.
I must say that I'm very happy that Yugoslavia rejected Stalin in 1948. It's so easy to say how nice was in USSR and I wish it was possible for all of you to go and live there for a while. Then you would see your paradise. I have relatives in Poland and I visited them many times before 1990 and I didn't saw very nice things there.

And I still can't see how can you make any historical jugdments on something what some correspondent wrote. It wasn't bad to live in Yugoslavia if you agreed with the system. You can't say that for Eastern Europe and USSR. What was very bad in all countries led by Communists was that they didn't allow you to think with your head. They were thinking for you. If you questioned anything they done you were sent to prison or you were executed.

That's why I'm always say that Salvador Allende was the GREATEST COMMUNIST of all times. You can't force people into Communism. In Chile people voted Allende despite millions of dollars sent by USA for propaganda against him. And he didn't kill people that disagree with him.

About archives. You are not objective. There may be more prisoners in USA then USSR ever had. In USSR they didn't put you to jail. They put you to sleep with bullet in your head or in Sibiria to work at - 50 Celsius.

If is not a secret can you tell me which country are you from.

:hammer: El Branio

Comrade Zeke

29th January 2004, 00:11

But Elbranio....Know one was forced to like Tito..they didn't have to he was admired throughtout Yugoslavia and out of all the books I have read...Yugoslavia under Tito was a golden age. Look what happened when he died.......people started to slaughter each other. And Darza' wished for a greater Serbia and I have read many history books about the topic he was just as greedy as anyone else. Tito might have killed some woman and Children......but so it has happend every where else...Loaylist were killed in the American revolution. In the French Revolution. I have come up with a new motto a goverment is only as good as its people. And without Tito Yugoslavia would have fallen apart faster. We cant change history no madder how much we try. But we can examine the good things that happend and the bad things im sure as with the Case of FIdel Castro, Tito outways the good Sallvador Allende did good things but by the end of his admistartion it was falling apart. *Im begging to think Communimsm isent as good as it claims to be*
Zeke
Long Live the Cuban Revolution and a United Yugoslavia!

Solace

29th January 2004, 02:09

Look what happened when he died.......people started to slaughter each other.

Tell me why. Come on.

elbranio

29th January 2004, 13:41

Zeke :angry: . How can you tell me no one was forced to like Tito. I was forced to like Tito. My friends were forced to like Tito. My parents were forced to like Tito. Everybody in Yugoslavia was forced to like Tito. It wasn't my choice to join organization called Pioniri. That was some kind of Tito's children. It wasn't my choice to sing on every celebration, commemoration and anniversary songs about how great Tito was. It wasn't my choice to wear a hat called Titovka on my head and red kerchief around my neck. You've had to like him. If you doubt his greatness and that he was the smartest guy in history it didn't came out well for you. If child in school said anything wrong about Tito or Communist party his parents were called to school or even to interrogation by UDBA. If grown person said, done or wrote something wrong about Tito or Communist party he was sent to Political prison a.k.a. camp. I pointed out Goli otok. Here is the list of top 5 : Goli otok, Stara Gradiska, Sv. Grgur, Ugljan, Bileca. Belive me life in this concentration camps wasn't nice and many people died in them. I personaly know some people that were sent to Goli otok. You can check how it looks now on www.Goli-otok.com but text is only in croatian and german. You can check site www.Goliotok.com. It's for people that were locked there and for people that are looking for their relatives and friends that went to Goli and never came home. Some of them were completly innocent and were sent to prison just because somebody in Communist party didn't like them. And when I wrote you before about Goli you ignorred me by silly thoughts like only Royalists were sent to these camps. I'm sorry but that's bullshit.
You think you know something about Tito and Yugoslavia because you reed some books about that and your granma told you some things. Why did she left this paradise on earth called Yugoslavia.
You can talk bullshit about '' golden age of Yugoslavia under Tito'' you didn't have to live there. I have to live there. My parents and my friends lived there. So don't be so sure about things you really don't know so much about.
''Tito might have killed some women and children.'' I would like to see how would you react if your mother, sister or friend was shoted without any trial and not guilty of anything. My fathers friends were executed. It's easy for you to be smart from a distance.
''Tito outways the good'' Sorry for my choice of words but who the fuck are you to judge Tito and his deeds. I think that I and other people that lived in Yugoslavia can jugde him, not you on some books you reed.
''Look what happened when he died....people started to slaughter each other.'' In all years under Tito there were conflicts between all nations in YUgoslavia. But they were hiding all the problems under the slogan '' brotherhood and unity''. In 1945 majority of people in Slovenia didn't want to go to Tito's Yugoslavia. We wanted Slovenia to be part of Yugoslavia as a confederate republic. Tito and his wing of Communist party killed all leaders that didin't agree with them. And this people also fought in NOB and were Partisans. In Liberation front of Yugoslavia in WW2 communists were'nt mayority but after the war they killed or locked all their comrades in the war that didn't agree with their way of thinking.
So please Zeke stop with your utopic dreaming about how great was Yugoslavia and face the truth.
United Yugoslavia is dead so please don't bullshit with ''Long live United Yugoslavia''. You can't imagine how stupid you sound for us that live in the territory of former Yugoslavia.

:hammer: El Branio

commie kg

29th January 2004, 17:07

United Yugoslavia is dead so please don't bullshit with ''Long live United Yugoslavia''. You can't imagine how stupid you sound for us that live in the territory of former Yugoslavia.

You mention the University of Maribor, so I assume you are also Slovene. Do you think it is better in Slovenia now than it was during the Yugoslav era? What about the rise of ultra-nationalist politics in Serbia, Croatia, and Slovenia?

I'm just wondering, the only info I get about Yugoslavia is from my aging grandmother, and she hasn't been back to Slovenia in about 10 years.

elbranio

29th January 2004, 23:04

Commie kg, yes I believe it is better now than it was during Yugoslavia. But not as good as it could be. When we separated from Yugoslavia our goverment started to kiss ass western Europe. And our leaders who were in the top of Communist party in 80's changed their political views for 180 degres. Now they are all liberal, social democrats and stuff like that. So you must understand why I am so angry at them. They were never true Communists all they wanted was to rule. And sad thing is that's what happend in most Communist lands. And they still rule our country but now as Liberal, Democratic people and they never talk about communism. Our current president Janez Drnovsek was president of Communist party in late 80's. First president of Slovenia after separation was Milan Kucan. He was leader of Slovenian Communist party for nearly 30 years.
I really hate capitalism and consumption and I'm sad that we are going in this direction but it's still better than what we had before. I believe in individual freedom and in freedom of speech. We didn't have this in Yugoslavia. You could be the smartest guy in the state but if you didn't join Communist party and then did everything they said you were oppresed. UDBA was supervising every intelectual that wasn't 100 % O.K. with the politics of KPJ ( Communist party of Yugoslavia ) or even if they thought that he is not. That's the saddest thing. You didn't have to do anything wrong, but if they suspected that you done or said something you were sent to political prison. There is one sentence that was often use in Yugoslavia '' Don't think, Party will think for you''. It sound funny now but was reality than.

About rise of ultra- nacionalists in former Yugoslav republics. In Slovenia we don't have really big problem with that because in Slovenia there aren't big communities of Serbs and Croats. But bigger problem is Croatia and BiH. There is background to all of this. Many Serbs live deep on Croatian territory because they escape from Serbia in 16. - 19. century. I suppose you know that Serbia and part of BiH was under Otoman ( Turkish ) empire and Croatia and other part of BiH was under Avstro Ogrska.( I don't know english word for that. Sorry! ) . Serbs run from Turks to Territory under AO. And their goverment gave them land. For exchange they had to defend the territory against Turkish invasions. Native people Croats didn't like that very much and there were many conflicts between natives and newcomers. When all that was over and Turks were driven out of Balkan Serbs stayed there. During WW2 on the territory of Croatia and BiH new state was founded. It was called Independent state of Croatia and it was led by Croatian nacionalist group called Ustasi. They colaborated with Nazis. They started ethnic cleansing on this territory in 20. century. In concentration camps they killed a hundred of tousands of Serbs. Just in most famous camp called Jasenovac they killed over 300000 people mostly Serbs. In Serbia there were Cetniki with their leader Draza Mihajlovic. They were Serbian Nacionalists. They also did some killing themselves.
And then after the war there was YUGOSLAVIA. All nations live in ''peace in harmony''. It wasn't quite like that. But Tito and Communist party removed anybody that was showing Nacionalist ideas and behavior. So people hide their anger inside. It came out only on some occasions like sports events. In soccer matches between Croatian and Serbian clubs you could see that things are not forgotten. So when Slovenia an Croatia separated Serbs so their chance. In Serbia there were descendents of Cetnics. In Croatia there were descendents from Ustasi. On Croatian territory were many places with mostly Serbian people. In BiH there were 3 ethnic groups. And Croats and Serbs in Bosnia are biggest nacionalists. Muslims are also Croats and Serbs but they accept Islam as their religion. Why do you think that Slovenia win the war in 10 days. We didn't have strong army. But Yugoslav army left Slovenia because they didn't have interests here. If they wanted they would blow us away. In Croatia Serbs begin to seek autonomy and when Croatian goverment said no they begin to attack. With help of nacionalists from Serbia and Yugoslav ( in this moment already Serbian) army they attacked. And old memories didn't die and that's why it was so cruel and bloody in Bosnia and Croatia.
Yugoslavia and Tito didn't remove and solve this problems they put them under the carpet. They acted like they never happened. But you don't forget if your mother or grandmother or any relative is murdered or raped by someone. That's why it bursted out with such power and thats why people like Milosevic and Tudman came to authority. They were saying things people wanted to hear after all this years and things that weren't alloud to be said under Tito.
I hope i wasn't to long but it's not easy to explain such a complexed thing. And i apologize for grammar mistakes.
From which part of Slovenia is your grandmother. And send her my greetings.

:hammer: El Branio

commie kg

29th January 2004, 23:13

Thanks for writing all that, it was very informative. I am not a supporter of Tito per say, I have just always been interested since I grew up in a household where my mother, grandmother, grandfather, and even my great-grandparents would discuss Yugoslav and Slovene politics.

My family is from Šepulje, I'm not sure if you've been there.

Comrade Zeke

30th January 2004, 06:08

Woa calm down El Sarbo....or whatever your name is.....im sorry god. But I am from Conneticut.....and my grandmother didn't leave Yugoslavia she fell in love with an Irish man from America and move to America. She didn't voluntarly leave Yugoslavia. Ask almost any college proffeseror from almost every school on the planet they will tell you that Yugoslavia was more liberal and more econmicaly free then any other Communist nation. Ok So chill out. And my Grandmother is not some Lunni or something and she just doesn't tell a "few stories" trust me when I live in Conneticut for nine years I had to hear about them all time after time after time. She had to do the hole Tiokava caps to school and the Uniforms to school. She knows alot, when she lived in Communist Yugoslavia for 25 years of her life intill she met her American Husband everyone was happy, Litterate, Good Heathcares and she was a Croat lol....the worst kind of Yugoslavian you can meet in the 1990s because they broke off from Serbia. She was in Yugoslavia from her birth in 1950-till 1975 five years before Tito's death. She said was telling about how Saddam Hussein is an evil person yes I know he is but I have to talk to her on the phone everyday about it because she is a strict Catholic. She kept telling me over and over again that Communism is not so bad but isent free, except Tito because he kept "my homdland together". She told me all about the death camps and she wasn't to thrilled about those. But she said she still respected and admired Tito.She is not a "Commie lover she accually really doesn't like it but one day just a couple months ago before I really started to reaserch Communism, that although she thinks the Soviet Union and all these other places are corrupt she still praises all about how great Yugoslaiva and how great Tito was. I did some reaserch and she was right all the "Bullshit books I have read" I very relible sources and are written by good authors. They are wrote by American, British and Seribian Journalists. Yes I agree WITH YOU THAT YUGOSLAVIA WAS NOT THAT FREE BUT THEY DID HAVE MORE SPECIAL RIGHTS THEN OTHER COMMUNIST COUNTIRES. I have come to conclusion that Communism will probely never work........although it was great for just a little while try 4 decades it is just to dramatic. And when someone even elects a Communist leader that Communist leader Im talking about Sallvador Allende will be killed by the American CIA. I know how you have to live threw all your suffering in Yugoslavia.........deathcamps uniforms.....secret police no freedom of speech yes I know all this do not remind me I know all of this but I started this discussion because I wanted to see if anyone thought that what Tito was great.......Helped keep a Nation together......Start the FIRST NON-Aligned movement helped the poor...broke away from Stalin and his evilness. And was just an admirable person. But I guess I was wrong because No one had anything good to say about Tito just bad things like he is a traitor to the Communist cause that is crap. I do not beilive that. Everyone seems to love Stalin and Mao......but what have they ever done for there people?? I tell you what NOTHING AT ALL. Tito at least with his own heart wanted brother hood and unity. So I'm sorry that I dont think Like you El Barino or whatever. You can critzies all you want...but I least Tito's Yugosalavia had vareity in their goods.
And Darza wanted Serbia to be on top, not a free Kingdom. No one was ever forced out by gun point to celabrate the greatness of Tito.......I dont care what you say if you say you were forced out of your home by gun point that is horse shit, and is not true. Tito's although he was a dicatror did not mistreat Yugoslavs, he was not an egotisit maniac........all the books I have read and my grandmothers accounts state he wasn't like that......Tito wanted to help the third world SO I GIVE YOU A QUESTION EL BARNIO
TO THINK ABOUT, IF A LEADER IT NOT DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED BUT STILL DOES GOOD THINGS FOR HIS PEOPLE LIKE FIDEL CASTRO, TITO, QUEEN VICTORIA, CEASER, NAPOLEAON, ALEXANDER THE GREAT,THE SHAH, OR ANYOTHER DICTATOR,KIND OR MILITARY GENERAL IS HE BAD? AFTER ALL SUCH SYSTEN HAVE WORKED BEFORE THE GREAT AMERICAN DEMOCRACY CAME ALONG....I love Democracy and I love Freedom but Im just saying that one thing for cultures have surfived with out Democracy. -The United States is destined to plaugue America with Misery and suffering all in the name of their freedom -Simon BOlivar.
Zeke you are a good person to debate with im going on a trip be back in 3 weeks but I will wish to read what your views are. :)

elbranio

30th January 2004, 12:56

Commie kg, I've never been in Šepulje but I've been in place near that is called Tomaj. You know that Slovenia is small country and I've been in nearly every part of Slovenia.
You should come to Slovenia yourself sometimes and see it with your own eyes.
:hammer: El Branio

Solace

30th January 2004, 14:06

HEY!!

Why didn't I get a whole paragraph with capital letters me too. I asked you a question, kid.

elbranio

30th January 2004, 15:58

Zeke, sorry for some words I said before. I wasn't in very good mood and some words I used don't belong in debate. I apologize for that. Now let's get to the topic.
Why didn't he ( husband ) move to Yugoslavia.

I certainly agree with you that Yugoslavia was more Liberal than other so called communists countries.But would it be enough for you that you have MORE SPECIAL RIGHTS THAN OTHER COMMUNIST COUNTRIES. I believe that is my right to have all HUMAN RIGHTS not just some and nobody is in title to take them back from me. And I'm repeating myself when I talk about state of mind in Yugoslavia. Sorry but this is VERY IMPORTANT subject for me. In Yugoslavia we had only one truth. And that was truth of Communist party. People were brainwashed and Communist propaganda was strong. You can't imagine how many times have I heard in my youth that Tito is the greatest, bravest, smartest, prettiest. We had picture of him in every classroom or public place and that was ordered by KPJ. And as I said before I can't agree with mentallity like '' Don't think Party will think for you.'' It's very important that you can say '' Hey guys I don't agree with you and I would do this thing other way'' . That was immpossible. They were unmistakeble and if you doubt in them you were enemy of the state.
Yugoslavia wasn't so bad for working class but even there was important if you were or were'nt in KPJ. It didn't matter how good were you at your work if you weren't in KPJ you didn't get promotion.
I don't want to compare Yugoslavia with other Communist countries. Why do you want to compare Yu with something much worse. I'm grateful that we didn't stay under Stalin.
- South Slavs are not a nation but group of nations. What will you say if I would say that I don't believe that Ireland should be part of Great Britain because their are all Brits. You wouldn't like that. So you must understand that I don't like when you are talking stuff like long live United Yugoslavia. I'm Slovene not Yugoslav.
I respect everything you grandma told you about YUgoslavia but since 1975 many new things came out about years 1945 - 1980. Things that were forbidden to disscus and talk about them in Communism. Bad things that happened during Tito's golden age. People only knew stuff Communists wanted them to know. Your granma was no exception.
As i said before you are looking from distance and is easy for you to say some people were killed, there were some camps, some people were locked and stuff like that. But for me isn't so easy. For me these people have faces. I've seen people coming out of these prisons broked both physically and mentally. My friend shoved me pictures of his grandfather who died in one of this prisons. Try to imagine how would you feel.
Trust me I tottaly agree with you on the Stalin and Mao issue. Yugoslavia was much better than other communist countries under USSR. I've been in some of them in 80's. I saw Poland, Hungary, Romunia and it was disaster. Funny thing is that on this site people from Western Europe and USA praise criminals like STalin, Caucesscu and Mao. I don't se many Russian and Romanian people saying great stuff about this regimes. Opinion of people that sit in their safe homes in west, and talk how Stalin did great things and that Caucescu liberated Romunia don't mean much to me.That's why I said you can't jugde something in history just on some books you read. They read books about how great Stalin, Caucescu and others were and believe in everything they read. Problem is most of them have never been in these countries when they had communists regimes. I've seen things with my own eyes so I believe I know what was like behind iron curtain.
On Draza Mihajlovic. With no doubt he was Serbian Nacionalist I agree with you. Ask your granma about Jasenovac and NDH.
You misunderstood me. I never said i was forces out of my home. I said tanks were drove 5m of my house with loaded guns in 1991. Tanks that wanted to stop Slovenia to separate from Yugoslavia. We voted on that issue 1990 and almost 90% of people in Slovenia voted for separation from Yugoslavia. So you're saying that we don't have the right to go away from country we don't want to live in and live as independent Slovenia.
- TITO: Tito was a dictator. Under his leadership some people were mistreated. People that didn't agree with all the things Tito and his party said. His party didn't alloud anybody to doubt anything he said. We agree that is not very positive thing.
But in the end he was just an icon. There were people in Yugoslavia that had more political power in YU than him. I believe that he didn't know all the horrible things that happened under his ruling.
And again don't compare Tito with killers like Stalin. He wasn't so bad. The fact is it could be better in Yugoslavia.
About Non - Aligned movement. This was political thing not so much worry about third world. He was friend with some of cruelest dictators in Africa like Idi- Amin.
Now to your question.
Fidel Castro - It's hard for him because he is so close to USA. I can't agree with all the things he did. Human rights! It's sad that now rich people from Europe go to Cuba and have sex with cuban girls for few bucks. Something is wrong with that don't you think.
Tito - we said lot about him.
I don't understand what do you mean by mentioning Ceaser, Napoleon and Alexander the great. All of them invaded foreign lands and Ceasar and Alexander even took people from invaded lands and made them slaves. Napoleon wanted to rule the world and he wanted that France rule whole world. If you mentioned them you could also mention Hitler. He wanted everything good for his nation. But to achieve this goal he attacked other lands just like Napoleon, Ceasar and Alexander.
I don't believe in American democracy. Americans talked about democracy and equal rights for everybody and at the same time they had slaves working for them.
I agree with Your quote by Bolivar but you must use World instead of America.
:hammer: El Branio

Comrade Zeke

1st February 2004, 05:10

Hey Im Back Im not accually going on a trip after all yea!

Anyway as I was saying.........Ok fine I will have to agree with you on all the stuff you have said. But then you have to look at one thing when those tanks rolled up to your house in 1991......they wern't Tito's tanks lol they were Yugoslavian Communist tanks......or should I say the "New Yugoslavias tanks. I do not support the mass killings of thousands of Bosians and Muslisms just because Serbia wanted a big union. So if Slovenia wanted to be an independent I support that to. Wait It is Independent other wise I dout I would be talking to you lol. Sorry about my Grammer...I aint the best speller. Anway....I know I have got all my info from Grandma and books and other peoles accounts....but in your opionion do you like living in Slovenia....or a Yugoslavia a Communist one. And do you have anything good to say about the old communist rule??????? And I hate Nicole Ceasesecu, Stalin,Mao all there crapy dicatators that all the Communists in this forum praise for no good reason. They back up their views but they ussally involve how they made the countries better with Education and Idustralization. But that however does not way out the facts that they killed millions all in the name of their personal egos. Fidel Castro although his people are almost starving to death they have a strong national pride for the revolution and their country and Fidel Castro is one of those leaders that will be reambered because....he helped his people although his admistatrasive is corrupt. Tito I admire because he defired the USSR and many other countries. Yugoslavia,Egypt and Cuba were the 3 founders of the Non-Aligned movement. And to answear your question about my grandma's husband who is now dead, didn't move to Yugoslavia the simplest answear I got from her....he was a very patrotic and loved America. NHD=Ustasha read the whole history of Ante' Plavec awful very awaful!! Millions died or was it hundreds of thousands. I never liked any Communist countries except Yugoslavia, Chile and Cuba anyway. Anthor funny thing that has happend to me is a Russian lives in my house no joke. He kind of brainwashed me into Communism and he is obbseced with how great the USSR is, I dont think so lol. I think Che Guvera is one of those reambele Communist because he defied the USSR and wanted freedom to the poor he never tryed to take over dictatoral powers or anything. Allende I beilive even admired him.
Zeke

elbranio

2nd February 2004, 21:08

Zeke, You asked me if is better to live in Slovenia than it was in Yugoslavia. I think is better now, but there are some things that I don't like and were better in Yugoslavia. We had free doctors and social care was good. Rich people didn't have more rights than poor. It was not bad if you wanted to live like a caddle. If you did what was said to you and didn't think to much it was nice. You could go to holliday every year, you could go to doctor when you were ill.
But that's not enough for me. You know what they say is difference beetween human being and animal. His ability to think. So if they take that away from you then you are nothing more than animal. And that's just what they did in every communist country. They took away you right to say I don't agree with you guys. And I believe that no human is in title to tell me what is the best for me and I don't care if his name is Tito, Fidel, Che, Josef, George or Tony.
About how Stalin & co made their countries better with Education and industrialization. They didn't. Their education teached people only those things they wanted. Industry in those countries wasn't so good. They didn't give a shit about nature and evolution.

:hammer: El Branio

Comrade Zeke

2nd February 2004, 23:39

Except Chile......the only country they never took the freedom away from was Chile. :D

elbranio

6th February 2004, 00:14

Yes, Zeke you got that right , but Chile was only ruled by communist and it was not communist country. And Allende was different type of guy than other communist leaders. He lost elections 4 times before he became a president of Chile. He believed that all people must choose their leaders not only the chosen ones.
I'm currently reading two books written by people that were sent to Goli otok and Sv. Grgur. You can't imagine what they gone trough.
:hammer: El Branio

Edelweiss

6th February 2004, 01:43

elbranio, it's very interesting what you write here, it's good to finally get some profound "first hand" information here (have you already lived in Titoist Yugoslavia BTW? Or did you get your info from parents/friends/uni etc?).

You said: "And South Slavs are not a nation.".
So why do you think that a nation always HAS to be out of single ethnicity (=Volk)? Wasn't it a huge progress by Tito to unify those different ethicities, with such a long history of war, peacafully in one nation, and with equal rights for all? I mean, even though he did it with an Iron fist, but it at least brought peace to the Balkans for nearly 40 years.
It was the interest of western powers like Germany and the USA to smash socialist Yugoslavia, they successfully seaded the "ethnic bacillus", and inflamed those ugly wars, not only by diplomatic actions like the German acknowledgement of the Slovenian independence, but also with active military help.
I'm not a big friend of Tito, I'm aware of his crimes, but still I appreciate his idea of a socialist multi-ethnic state in the Balkans. You said you support communist ideas aswell, so why don't you see yourself as Yugoslavian? Where there any communists in Slovenia willing to defend Yugoslavia? maybe my questions are naive, but Ì'm looking forward to your reply.

Comrade Zeke

6th February 2004, 04:15

Good point Malte. :D

elbranio

6th February 2004, 14:45

No Malte, your questions are not naive.
I was born in 1978 so I spent my youth in Yugoslavia. Of course I also heard a lot about earlier years of Yugoslavia from parents, grandparents etc. But as student of history I also have access to some archives and professional literature about that matter. I am triing to join all that together to get the whole picture of what was going in Yugoslavia 1944 - 1991. Now to your questions.
It would be progress, but that didn't happend. Tito and communists unify this nation with force and they didn't ask people if they want to live in that kind of Yugoslavia.
About equall rights for all nations. It wasn't like that. Muslims in Bosnia and Albans in Kosovo were always less valued as other nations. Serbs and Croats always considered themselves more worthy. Slovenia was in the middle. We were the most developted republic in Yugoslavia. And that was one of the reasons Slovenia wanted to separate. Lot of money that was made in Slovenia was sent to all other republics in the name of brotherhood and unity. People in SLovenia didn't like that. They were working their asses and all this money was spent to build infrastructure or something else in other republics. And Slovenia didn't get anything back.
You are saying ''even with iron fist''. It's easy for you to say that. I wonder if you would want to live in a country that was ruled that way. It looked peacefully to Europe of course, but that's because everyone who didn't agree with their idea of Yugoslavia was locked down. Sorry but that's not the peace I want to live in. There was a scene in one Yugoslav film from 1970's that shoved that spirit. Communist activist is saying to his relatives one sentence whenever they say anything that is not politicaly correct.'' Now we have freedom, you must be careful what you are saying.''
I wrote that before but i will say that again. That ''ethnic bacillus'' as you call it was alwasy there. In ww2 Croats killed Serbs, Serbs killed Croats. In Slovenia Slovenes killed Slovenes. People don't forget this thing so easy. Descendants of more than 300000 Serbs killed in Jasenovac By Ustasi dodn't forget who killed their parents and grand parents.
In 80's Tito and most of the people that build Yugoslavia and were occupied with this idea of country of South Slavs died. This idea was only in their heads not in the heads of all people. So even the communist leaders in republics didn't believe in Yugoslavia anymore. Then Slobodan Milosevic became leader of Communist in Serbia. I don't have to tell you more about what happened then.
I think that Germany did the right thing to acknowledge Slovenia. 90% of people in Slovenia voted for separation. Who have the right to tell them not to separate.
I support communist ideas. But in Yugoslavia and most of others so called Communist countries there was no communism. It was Dictatorship. And not dictatureship of proletariat, but dictatureship of individuals that took the power in the name of communist ideas and used them to retain it. They used them but didn't believe in them.
I can answer your question about communists in Slovenia. They are still in charge of our country. Janez Drnovsek, Milan Kucan. They were leaders of Slovenian communists in Yugoslavia and now they are anthing but communists. They are liberals, democrats & stuff.
In my opinion that was the problem in most communist countries. People that rule them were'nt communists, they just wanted to rule and live in richness and were only using ordinary people for their cause.
If they wanted good for their they people like they should they wouldn't spent billions of dollars for sculptures and pictures of themselves,their houses and their limousines ( Tito had over 100 cars !!!, his private ZOO and lots of villa's around Yugoslavia ). They would give money to the people.
I respect that by Che. He believed in idea of communism. A lot of ''communists'' didn't.

:hammer: El Branio

RedAnarchist

6th February 2004, 15:13

I have a friend who is Serbo-Hungarian and lives in Novi Sad. She hates talking about anything related to politics. I think that the war in the former Yugoslav republics and the iron rules of Milosevic and Tito (i'm not a big fan of either) has etched a big mark on the Serbian, Croation, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Kosovan and Slovene psyches for many generations to come.

Commie Girl

6th February 2004, 21:51

:) You need to read Paris 1919 by Margaret McMillan......explains how after WW1, the US, Britain, France and Italy sat around and redrew the map of Europe, etc.

Comrade Zeke

7th February 2004, 07:29

Malte dont you live in Croatia??? Do you admire Tito in anyway Elbernio or all you have to say about him is bad I know he was a dictator and such but so is Fidel Castro and peole admire him.....I mean im thankful I live in a democracy but...you cant help not admring there men even though they were just as greedy as anyone else. So what do you Admire about Tito?

commie kg

8th February 2004, 18:32

Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 7 2004, 12:29 AM
Malte dont you live in Croatia??? Do you admire Tito in anyway Elbernio or all you have to say about him is bad I know he was a dictator and such but so is Fidel Castro and peole admire him.....I mean im thankful I live in a democracy but...you cant help not admring there men even though they were just as greedy as anyone else. So what do you Admire about Tito?
Malte is German, I believe.

elbranio

8th February 2004, 23:42

The thing that I admire about Tito is how he led foreign politics. He used the situation in the world and fight betwen West and East. He was somewhere in the midlle. I respect that he didn't go in Capitalism. And I believe that idea in Yugoslavia was very good, much better than ideas in USSR and even in the west. That's why I'm so disapointed by Tito and Communists. They didn't follow the ideas. After war they become greedy. They had one bad habit left from their their teacher Stalin. They beleived their way is the only right way. Yugoslavia could really become heaven on earth if Tito and Communists let other parties that were involed in Liberation Front of Slovenia to say what they think about things. But they didn't.
I admire his Carisma. He was very carismatic person.
About Fidel. It's easy for us to admire him and say he is a great leader, he fights against USA imperialism. But the real judgment on Fidel Castro and his rulling must come from people that live in Cuba and a lot of them are hungry and very poor. We should ask them what they think. But they can't talk for now. Some of my friends went to Cuba and have said that people are affraid to talk about politics.
But there is one huge difference betwen Tito and Fidel. When you see Fidel on Tv he wears mostly uniforms. He isn't dressed in expensive clothes and drives in rolls royce.
Tito on the other hand acted like he was the king not the peoples president. He was wearing only expensive clothes. He had over 100 cars. I don't know the exact number but I think he had 15 rolls royces. He had many villas in every part in Yugoslavia only for his use. He had group of islands called Brioni for himself. He had Zoo with all exotic animals on Brioni just for himself and his guests. He had his own Yacht. As I said he was spending big money that could go to people of Yugoslavia and help them to live better.
I don't believe that he needed 100 cars or anything else of mentioned above.
I respect Fidel because he didn't go to that kind of extremes. But as I said before people of Cuba know what is really going on there we can only guess.
And trust me you don't live in democracy.
:hammer: El Branio

Comrade Zeke

12th February 2004, 03:59

I live in a democracy.....i would know because i have to hear about George Bush all the time and how bad Arabs are because of Sept.11 idamn lol but I do not live in "AMERICA,AMERICA" I live in Hawaii and I respect my state for it is the only one that wants soverity from the goveremt and the hawaiin people are a strong and independent race. No one is starving in Cuba they just have extream limmted amounts of food only because the USA blockades the poor Island into submissom........So when Fidel dies I will be sad for althoguh it is awful in Cuba now it will be worse when the Americans take over the goveremnt for 50 years. The Cuban people will be screeming for Communism back because all the rich Cappies with there casinos will go over there and Cubans will be slaves again. Tito was a brager i have to admit. Lol But did you ever hear about Hallie Sallasie from Ethipopia??? He fed his dogs strips of meat when his people were starving to death! and he bought a 4 million dollar Yact for himself and let his people starve. THen he launch a war against Communist Somalia! His people finnally saw the pictures of him feeding his dogs and I beilive the army overthrew him. What you think about Che Guevara?

sh0cker

10th March 2004, 15:23

I have opened one topic on history about Tito.. And started discussion so I'll copy it and add some things..
Comrade Zeke, here is it again just to argue with you because even you grandmother was from Yugoslavia, you don't know some things..

Draza Mihajlovic, was ectually biggest Chetnik ever born, he wanted big Serbia so there is can't be any parallel between his uniting with Tito..
And elbranio, about tenks above your head, it is not true at all, Serbian tanks were in Slavonia a for a little time not in whole Slovenia, and everyone knows that after Tito's death Slovenia started waiting for a moment to divade from other real Balkan (you concern Slovenia as non Balkan country) countries..
We should avoid causes of 1991 war.. if it is possible on this topic..

Here is a little about Tito and Chetniks..

Well Comrade Zeke I am very glad that you know that so much and that we can discuss because some things I disagree..

First of all you explained Tito's gaining to power very well and he was really good and clever communist.
His international relationships were enormosly great for country such as Yugoslavia was, it became in 70's fifth country in the WORLD!
He had great relationships with middle east countries, and being one of non involved countries to any side, he get many loans which he had not to pay back. And highly repspected Yugoslavia was strong and powerful as well as it's army was. Golden ages were during his period, but it wasn't very nice during later 40's as you said.

After Stalin wanted to divade all communist counties (almost all Eastern Europe) into one big area which would not have almost any connections with West of course under himself, he saw that it's not going to work that so easy.. So he turned back to Stalin and rejected to be part of that divided Eastern Europe. By that time relationships with Yugoslavs and Russians was very very good, and they were concering them selfs as "brothers". He knew this. So to make sure that there won't be any opposition to his decision, he ordered, that anyone who says opposite to him or in favour of Russia have to be exiled. And place where they were exiled was called and it is nowdays Goli Otok. It is an island, where tree's are not growing, so there are just stone's, no earth, bloody hardly life there. I won't go in what they were doing. But it wasn't just if you support Russia that you would be exiled, you had to say just "Russia is fine" you would be exiled, as it is described in some book I was reading few monthes ago. And he showed some parts of behaving here as Stalin was, also as you mentioned all those Chetniks who survived after II ww were killed, or they fled to mostly Australia, Argentina, USA, Russia and some other European country.
So he wasn't that so polite as you presented, but it is true that he made incredible things with Yugoslavia and no one can oppose that..

Now I want to explain you and others some things about Chetniks, because what you said is a non-sence..
I actually had chance to meet one of Chetniks which had fled after II ww so I hear some really truth things, which I also read later one, and he wasn't true Chetnik but he was supporter I'll explain why..

Chetniks were kings elite army, after he fled in exile they started fighting AGAINST Germans, Italians and Partisans as well.
They contained elite forces mostly from Montenegro and Serbia (Much less number of others) and they were not even close to Ustashe from Croatia which supported Naciz and who were in charge of some concentration camps. Chetniks are presented as very ruthless and almost with animal insticts people, which wasn't that so true, but war is war. I must mention that neither that Partisans were polite! After kings fled they wanted to bring him back after peace and keep monarchy, so they started fighting. They had supporters all around Serbia and Montenegro. They were quite strong. But in order to have more people with them they (as well as Partisans) were blackmailing people which they cought in area they occupaid. So many people who were fighting with them weren't really supporters of their ideas. Also people who opposed Partisans in order to survive had to be with Chetniks, even thay had not support them! It is true that in some parts of Yugoslavia Chetniks were cooperating with Germans to destroy Partisans.
After all those battles when Tito gain the power almost every singe Chetnik was or killed or he fled to some other country.
To prove that Chetniks were NOT from Croatia at all (except on beggining after king fled, if some were in that forces but after NO) because Croatia as you said had it's own groups Ustasha which was against Chetniks as well as against Partisans.
And Chetniks consists very very educated and clever people who opposed Partisans so they join Chetniks to survive. Chetniks also consists of people who were blackmailed by or killing their family or things like that to go in Chetniks.
Now days most of people who thinks that if someone is Chetnik he was for king, he was this or that.. It isn't true, many people weren't supporters of Chetniks but they had to be that. So it is not right to talk about them like that.

Just to correct you few things..
Montenegro --> One of republics of Yugoslavia, you wrote little diffirent.
UDBA --> Tito's secret police.
Milovan Djilas --> Man who gained first communisam revolution which you mention and very close friend of Stalin (was with him in Yalta) you wrote Milan, just to be more clearer. He was from Montenegro.

This would be what I wanted to say, very cofused because I don't have a lot of time now and sorry for my poor spellings..

sh0cker

10th March 2004, 15:25

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 04:13 PM
I have a friend who is Serbo-Hungarian and lives in Novi Sad. She hates talking about anything related to politics. I think that the war in the former Yugoslav republics and the iron rules of Milosevic and Tito (i'm not a big fan of either) has etched a big mark on the Serbian, Croation, Bosnian, Montenegrin, Kosovan and Slovene psyches for many generations to come.
Don't divade Kosoveo from Serbia, as far as I know it is not divaded..

Actually because of funking USA Albanians took over after the shame bombarding of Serbia and Montenegro in 1999..

El Branio, I really understand that you don't Tito was so bad, because now days Slovenia is best country from old Yugoslavia, and you know why?
All industry Tito put in Slovenia, I'm sure you hear for Goli Otok, if you did tell me in ratio how many Slovenians were they compare with Serbs and Montenegrins, I won't talk about Croats because he didn't even send them.. So Tito's bad sides you didn't felt.
Also I totally agree with you about Jasenovac and some other camps..

sh0cker

sh0cker

10th March 2004, 15:39

Well, Mia you could say that you wanted to separate, but actually your avatar does not show history of Croatia.. Maybe some told you so a?

sh0cker

Comrade Zeke

11th March 2004, 02:33

Chetniks were not supported by the Germans...the Germans were totally against them......but the Italians allied with them to destory the Partisan forces at the river Nevertnera..think it that how you spell it,In 1943 it was the fith offensive and the biggest offensive in the war against the Partisans. I know Tito imprioned thousands. And the people of Yugoslavia were not that freidnly with their "Big brothers" the Russians. Ever heard of the rape of Belgrade well yeah that is one of the reasons Titio broke with Stalin. And the Chetniks slaughtered Muslims in Serbia durring their rule there. Chetniks were good but in my opinion the Partisans did more for the country. The Chetniks were just trying to make Serbia and to a lesser extent Monterngro the real Yugoslavia. The Croats,Albaninas,Muslims,Slovens,Hungarians and the Macadonians wern't involde with the big sceam. I never said that Chetniks were allied with the Utasha...the Chetniks hated their guts.
Hey and there is one part of Yugoslav history I don't know......why did Alexander Rankovic lose favor with Tito and become descrased...like Djilas??? SOrry about spelling :D
Zeke

sh0cker

11th March 2004, 10:21

Look, it is true that Chetniks were together on Neretva with Italians but totally they were against eachother..
I'll tell you one thing, Tito did NOT broke with Stalin because of that rope, Tito broke with Stalin because he wanted always Yugoslavia to be more turned to the west, specially because he is from Croatia, Montenegrins and Serbs were turned to Russia ALWAYS! but they had to broke with Stalin, simply as I said on Goli Otok were mostly people from Montenegro and Serbia because they loved Russia and they still do.. One Tito can't destroy that, during centuries they were together, even in I world war Russia entered because of Serbs so.. It is not true what you said now..

About Muslims, of course they did what did you really expect?
Those Muslims were actually Serbs but under Otoman Empire they became Muslims, and every one knows what Serbs and Montenegrins think about Otoman's and Muslims and I won't go further except you are interested..
And don't put Albanians inside Slavs because they are not, and it is not right, and they are totally different I know something about it but not very deep.. If you are interested I can write what I know..

When Tito had 70y.o. or in those years actually he was very paranoic, and anyone who tried to oppose him would be exiled or killed as Djilas was.. And what happen with Rankovic is huge story I'll try to obtain it briefly..

Rankovic except being close to Tito was also in charge of Kosovo and similary like ministar of Police but not exactly that.. By that time Albanians started "taking" actually wanting more and more rights, and Rankovic was very very nationalists. So didn't even think about it, what he did, he started silent war with Albanins on Kosovo. And many people doesn't knew about this excpet those Serbs on Kosovo, and somehow he really was doing huge killings and exilings, so someone told Tito what is happeing, and Tito went against him..

But actually Tito was paranoic, as every other leader is..

What about loans, it is no where written, but what I think is that Yugoslavia lived very good because of those loans which they didn't have to pay back.. Actually I don't know real truth but it is sort of my opinion..

sh0cker

Comrade Zeke

12th March 2004, 01:53

Well I never said he broke with Stalin because of the rape.....that was just one thr reasons..other being Tito was sorta Egotisitc and he didn't like to be bossed around by sombody like Stalin who was anthor Egotsistic maniac. When Djilas went to Moscow Stalin inuslted him and the other Yugoslav Communists. Latter on Stalin sent "Movie crews" into Yugoslavia to make the movie "In the montains of Yugoslavia" the movie crews turned out to be spys and this also went to the break. Stalin even ensulted Tito himself when he went to Moscow. Tito was just a totally diffrent thinker from Stalin and he didn't want to be a slave of the Soviet Empire. Yugoslavia also never joined the Warsaw pack. Tito did take out some loans from the U.K and the U.S in the early 1950s. Latter on the econmey boosted so much that Yugoslavia needed no loans. It never starved like Romainia did. And there were few uprsing against the goverment. Albanians are more Turkish and have a totally diffrent race of Slavs...but did the Chetniks have to kill the people that already lived in their lands? In my mind that is wrong and Tito allowed both religions to practice freely. I am not deffeding Tito I am sure he was an awful guy but he was better then Stalin and he helped Yugoslavia.
Here is a picture of Tito...lol I just had to add it