Greetings from Scotland

[Red Clydesider]

Having already added a few posts, I should introduce myself. I'm a retired English teacher living near Glasgow, Scotland. I also write and have published two books of poems, as well as articles in internet mags. Some poems of mine have appeared in New Humanist and an article in the US print magazine New Politics. Though I read and think about politics a lot, there's no-one among my immediate friends who's a real leftist kindred spirit - and that's why I joined this forum.

The big thing in Scottish politics just now is next year's Independence Referendum. I will vote Yes, but this quote from a Scottish left website is closer to my way of thinking:

'Tempting though it may be to celebrate our independence once we get it, we should never forget Guevara's words that although national liberation is a blow to the world imperial system, it is only when economic domination over a people is ended that true liberation is achieved'.

James.

[Q]

Welcome :)

If you have political questions, you can ask them in the Learning forum. That's why it's there after all!

If you have questions about your account, don't hesitate to send me a PM or ask here.

[Brutus]

We need you, Scotland! You're our best shot at keeping the Tories out!

[Domela Nieuwenhuis]

Welcome!

And well quoted James!

[Q]

A while back I posted actually on this question. Might aswell repost it here:


There are several left groups supporting Scottish independence. All are basing themselves on some variant of being able to build a socialist society or, at least, have a pro-working class government in Scotland, if only the link with London was cut. Added to this are, at best, calls to have a "voluntary confederation" with England, Wales and Ireland as a step towards a "socialist Europe". How this "step" between declaring independence and instating a socialist Scottish republic and a socialist Europe is made, is left unexplained.

In reality any such policy would result in disaster.

What would happen if a socialist republic was declared in Scotland? Of course, we have no crystal ball, but certain things are bound to happen:

- The surrounding states, all capitalist states after all, would react aggressively. Boycots are to be expected. A closed border to England and Ireland. Economic crippling as Scotland is left to fend on its own.
- Nationalise companies? Forget it. If the multinationals haven't left already, there would be huge pressure (more sanctions?) not to nationalise them.
- Annul the state debt? Forget it. As we've seen with Greece the markets would respond immediately. Interest rates would skyrocket, effectively making it impossible for Scotland to ever borrow again.
- Build an alternative economy? Doubt it. International trade would be made increasingly difficult due to unfavorable trade agreements. Perhaps even a direct trade embargo and "no fly" zones enforced by aircraft carriers are to be expected.
- Don't dream about getting access to those oil fields for the coast of Scotland. Those are of strategic interest to the imperialists and they will ensure direct access to it.
- Say we don't get a military invasion to "restore order" pretty much immediately and that this situation would last for a while. How would life look like in our socialist republic? On a relatively short term we would see energy shortages, traffic ceases. How long would power plants run with such shortages?
- The result is that our hypothetical Scottish socialist government would have to declare martial law and decrease living standards drastically. There is no other option.
- And what if we get workers resistance? Then we just send in the police forces or troops (maybe re-established ones after the revolution) to smash any strikes, demonstrations, etc. All in the 'defense of the revolution' of course.
- This would most likely cause an exodus of workers, especially higher educated ones. Why would they accept such treatment after all? The logical response from our socialist government? Setting up an iron curtain to prevent further emigration.

This is also, on a different scale, what happened to the early Soviet Union and how a revolution would turn into its opposite. The world is too integrated to go at it alone. This is exactly why we need international solutions. A pan-European revolution, at the very least, is what is needed.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Welcome to RevLeft! :D

[Tifosi]

Welcome James.


We need you, Scotland! You're our best shot at keeping the Tories out!

There is only 1 Tory MP in Scotland. Your fucked with or without us. ;)

[Sam_b]

Added to this are, at best, calls to have a "voluntary confederation" with England, Wales and Ireland as a step towards a "socialist Europe".

Calls which I have never heard before.

[Q]

Calls which I have never heard before.
Even worse then that you didn't.

[Brutus]

Welcome James.



There is only 1 Tory MP in Scotland. Your fucked with or without us. ;)

That's 5 million anti Tory votes lost...
We can change! We already gave you free university!

[Red Clydesider]

Thanks for the welcomes! Q, your points about the consequences of a socialist Scotland are very persuasive. Chile, Guatemala, Mossadeq's Iran, etc - the list is ebdless of countries that have been punished for introducing elements of socialism. As would Scotland. I do think, however, that an independent Scotland of any non-socialist sort we're likely to get would be, in line with my reference to Guevara, at least a minor anti-colonialist victory.

James.

[che86]

hello :)

[Homo Songun]

Some of Q's points are realistic. Some aren't. However, anything that weakens the UK is a good thing.

[Petrol Bomb]

Welcome, James, to RevLeft.

[Sam_b]

Even worse then that you didn't.

I don't read Weekly Worker or live on the internet so why would I, or indeed anyone else?

[Q]

Some of Q's points are realistic. Some aren't. However, anything that weakens the UK is a good thing.
I think it would weaken the working class dramatically if the UK were to split just like that. A capitalist "free" Scotland would quickly find its bearings in the world, but at the cost of divide and rule against the working class. So any kind of "anti-imperialist" ideas would be sadly mistaken.


I don't read Weekly Worker or live on the internet so why would I, or indeed anyone else?
How charming you are. But I wasn't even talking about the Weekly Worker and you live as much "on the internet" as I do last time I checked.

[The Idler]

Some of Q's points are realistic. Some aren't. However, anything that weakens the UK is a good thing.
A UKIP government could weaken the UK. Is that a good thing?

[Brutus]

A UKIP government could weaken the UK. Is that a good thing?

I don't want to think about that...

[Homo Songun]

A UKIP government could weaken the UK. Is that a good thing?

My opinion? It can be neither good nor bad. Those kinds of fringe parties simply don't exist to play that sort of role, functionally speaking, within the spectacle of bourgeois elections.

The important thing is that, politically speaking, the United Kingdom will have to be destroyed for Socialism to exist in the British Isles. Ditto many other places.

Of course, there is the moral-ethical dimension as well - there's not many states that have produced more evil in the world. Humanity will dramatically move forward at such date.

[Rural Comrade]

Welcome to revleft and help your people achieve independence from the crown with your vote.

[The Idler]

I don't think any Scottish nationalists are calling for weakening the rest of the UK, let alone its destruction. I would have said maybe a handful of ISGers but even Sam_b seems keen to distance the ISG from this rhetoric.