What is Autonomous Marxism?

[d3crypt]

It can't really find a clear explanation. Also what is the Situationist International?

[Sasha]

on autonomism, the wiki is actually pretty decent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autonomism

in short; developed in Italy in the 60's/70's in the fordist factories in opposition against the offical CP and their capitalist anti-worker collaboration, their praxis more than their theory, esp their projects in self organization (squatting of social centres, pirate radio, community organization based on class lines etc etc) and the idea that the revolution starts already in that praxis and develops through it instead as a fixed short term moment in the future to work towards inspired a.o. german, danish and dutch (anti-authoritarian) marxists, mao'ists and anarchists in the 70's and 80's into what would become known as the squatting or autonomous movements which in turn are a big influence now in places like greece, france and other places, basically what one could group now under the umbrella of "communization theory (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communization)".

i hope that helps?

over both autonomism and the SI one could find several useful thread by using the search function of the board btw...

[d3crypt]

I know there are threads, but its confusing...

[The Feral Underclass]

I'm sorry but there really isn't an easy explanation for it. You just need to read and read.

There was a similar thread posted a couple of weeks ago that may help you: Good Texts On Autonomism (http://www.revleft.com/vb/good-texts-autonomismi-t181340/index.html?t=181340&highlight=autonomous)

One quote I really love, that could perhaps sum up the spirit of autonomism is by Johannes Agnoli. But if you really want to understand it, you need to read.


"The autonomy I mean is class autonomy...This form of autonomy has two meanings. First, it is a class movement, a movement of labour against capital, a movement of workers as subjects of production against workers as objects of valorisation. At the same time, autonomy goes beyond the workplace: it describes a mass movement against the capitalist reduction of everyone to consumer objects. In both cases, autonomy means an attempt to free oneself from the logic of capital...Autonomy does not mean to reject the principle of organisation. It means to reject a certain form of organisation: a form that prioritises the interest of organisation over the interests of the class."

[Os Cangaceiros]

Developed initially by Raniero Panzieri, it was an Italian Marxist offshoot primarily interested with a new rigorous appraisal of the Italian working class & new developments within capitalism, including things like technological changes, class composition and immigration etc. Italian autonomists were also interested in certain worldwide developments at the time, most notably the Detroit auto strikes. Another topic of autonomist concern was where it all went wrong with the PCI (Communist Party of Italy) and the Italian socialists. Because at the time of autonomous Marxism, it had become clear that the PCI and the official Italian left had become rather comfortable with the state and capital, even as rank-and-file members of Italy's trade unions & students were becoming more and more rebellious.

The ideology was further fleshed out by Negri, Tronti and Bologna. Autonomist Marxism as advocated by people like Tronti was a Leninist movement towards the re-orientation of the politicized worker's movement and ultimately the formation of a vanguard party of the working class.

"Storming Heaven" by Steve Wright is pretty much the best single book on the topic. It's a very dry read, though.

[The Feral Underclass]

This might be of use: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Workerism

[Rooiakker]

Just another split in the left.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Harry Cleaver's Reading Capital Politically (http://libcom.org/library/reading-capital-politically-cleaver) has an autonomist slant.

[The Feral Underclass]

Just another split in the left.

No, not really.

[Akshay!]

Unlike other forms of Marxism, autonomist Marxism emphasises the ability of the working class to force changes to the organization of the capitalist system independent of the state, trade unions or political parties.

Stopped reading there. This is as pointless as other kinds of anarchism. What's new?

Adding "Marxism" at the end of everything doesn't make it Marxist!! Marx was Against Proudhon and Bakunin all his life. You can't change that fact, sorry.

For the open minded ones, read this - http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm

For other kids, well, if you want to use the word use it, I can't really stop you. But at least be aware of the fact that you won't be taken seriously outside your own little bubble.

Now I'll wait for the usual "no, You are in your bubble. Authoritarian!! :O You have no idea what [Autonomist/Libertarian/etc..etc..] Marxism is!!! :O Stalin!! Mao!! Dictator! Supports killing of 40 billion people!! :O :O" and so on...

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Stopped reading there. This is as pointless as other kinds of anarchism. What's new?

Adding "Marxism" at the end of everything doesn't make it Marxist!! Marx was Against Proudhon and Bakunin all his life. You can't change that fact, sorry.

For the open minded ones, read this - http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm

For other kids, well, if you want to use the word use it, I can't really stop you. But at least be aware of the fact that you won't be taken seriously outside your own little bubble.

Now I'll wait for the usual "no, You are in your bubble. Authoritarian!! :O You have no idea what [Autonomist/Libertarian/etc..etc..] Marxism is!!! :O Stalin!! Mao!! Dictator! Supports killing of 40 billion people!! :O :O" and so on...

Actually you sound like you're about 15. If you could shut the fuck up and go an entire day without making a post like this it would be awesome.

[G0VERNMENT]

Autonomists aren't opposed to using state power after the revolution, they are just abstentionists like leftcoms.

[Sasha]

Stopped reading there. This is as pointless as other kinds of anarchism. What's new?

Adding "Marxism" at the end of everything doesn't make it Marxist!! Marx was Against Proudhon and Bakunin all his life. You can't change that fact, sorry.

For the open minded ones, read this - http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm

For other kids, well, if you want to use the word use it, I can't really stop you. But at least be aware of the fact that you won't be taken seriously outside your own little bubble.

Now I'll wait for the usual "no, You are in your bubble. Authoritarian!! :O You have no idea what [Autonomist/Libertarian/etc..etc..] Marxism is!!! :O Stalin!! Mao!! Dictator! Supports killing of 40 billion people!! :O :O" and so on...


said the guy who was the uber anarchist only last month, stop trolling dude...

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Now I'll wait for the usual "no, You are in your bubble. Authoritarian!! :O You have no idea what [Autonomist/Libertarian/etc..etc..] Marxism is!!! :O Stalin!! Mao!! Dictator! Supports killing of 40 billion people!! :O :O" and so on...
I enjoy reading the Learning forum for the educational value, which I don't see any of in that.

[Sasha]

a useful text on autonomist marxism (mostly the original italian variety) from the other thread TAT linked too: http://www.prole.info/texts/automarx.html

[Zukunftsmusik]

In addition to writing a terrible post, I think what Akshay! misses here (even from my very new encounter with autonomism), is that this was a direct reaction from the working class to the communist party's and the unions' unwillingness to actually fight for the working class. As the established "working class" organisations went to bed with capital, they had to take up the fight themselves, outside these established organisations.

[The Feral Underclass]

http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1872/10/authority.htm

You realise this pamphlet is predicated entirely on a false premise?

[Akshay!]

You realise this pamphlet is predicated entirely on a false premise?

It's a classic Marxist critique of Anarchism. If you think it's based on a false premise then stop adding "Marxism" after every single thing. Is that difficult to understand? (of course this is not directed at you specifically)


said the guy who was the uber anarchist only last month,

Yes, and I realized I was wrong. So? :confused:
Is that somehow considered a bad thing among Zionists? Sorry didn't know that.

[Zukunftsmusik]

Editet out, because I was writing a stupid, angry post when telling people to not write angry, stupid posts.

[The Feral Underclass]

It's a classic Marxist critique of Anarchism.

But he's not critiquing anarchism, he's critiquing his projection of anarchism.


If you think it's based on a false premise then stop adding "Marxism" after every single thing.

That doesn't make any sense.


Is that difficult to understand? (of course this is not directed at you specifically)

Unfortunately the issue here is that you don't know what you're talking about. You don't know anything about autonomous Marxism so therefore your ability to tell me what it is not, has absolutely no credibility.

I would also go so far as to say you don't really understand Marxism. If you would like to spend some time to make it clear to us why autonomous Marxism is not Marxism, then feel free to do so. I would be very interested to hear your analysis and critique of autonomism.

Otherwise I suggest you act with a little more humility. Especially when you're engaging with people who do know what they're talking about.


Yes, and I realized I was wrong. So? :confused:
Is that somehow considered a bad thing among Zionists? Sorry didn't know that.

You need to calm down and stop acting as if everyone is your enemy. You will get further in life if you stop pretending you know everything.

[Akshay!]

But he's not critiquing anarchism, he's critiquing his projection of anarchism.

Will you or Karl Marx decide the meaning of Marxism? Read "Marx Debates Bakunin" (pg 542) in "The Marx Engels Reader" (Robert C Tucker).


Especially when you're engaging with people who do know what they're talking about.


Yeah, right.. :rolleyes:

[The Feral Underclass]

Will you or Karl Marx decide the meaning of Marxism? Read "Marx Debates Bakunin" (pg 542) in "The Marx Engels Reader" (Robert C Tucker).

Marx's debates with Bakunin, which I'm already familiar with, have nothing to do with that pamphlet, that Engels wrote. Anarchists don't reject class authority over the ruling class -- we reject political authority of the working class.


Yeah, right.. :rolleyes:

Yet we are all prepared to engage you in serious discussion. You are the one who is seemingly refusing to substantiate your angry little rant.

Don't hold back. Unleash your intellectual might and refute once and for all autonomous Marxism -- tell us all, categorically, why autonomous Marxism is not a form of Marxism!

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm bothered with how little Marx has to say concerning the situation of factory workers in post-war Italy. When is that dude gonna release his next book wtf.

[Akshay!]

Marx's debates with Bakunin, which I'm already familiar with, have nothing to do with that pamphlet, that Engels wrote.


Marx takes every single anarchist argument (including the one you mentioned) and systematically refutes it (in the text I mentioned). Engels' On Authority is basically a summary of Marx's rebuttals of both Bakunin and Proudhon. I don't know how the latter has "nothing to do" with the former. (Also check out Poverty of Philosophy by Marx which refutes Proudhon's Philosophy of Poverty.)

Here's a collection of what Marx and Engels wrote specifically on the subject of Anarchism - http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/anarchism/

Unfortunately it doesn't have the essay that I'm referring to but the basic arguments are the same.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Actually you sound like you're about 15. If you could shut the fuck up and go an entire day without making a post like this it would be awesome.

I'm 15 and I'm not as bad as him... :(

[svenne]

Why the heck are people discussing anarchism and On Authority in a thread about autonomism? If you want to discuss the relation between autonomism and anarchism, fine - but don't use a 150 year old text as some form of authorative statement, at least not when the tendency itself is theoreticly based in marxism and leninism. For crying out loud, this is the learning forum. You could at least have linked to a critique about the specific tendency people are discussing here. People with nothing to add and no idea what the subject is about should just not write, instead of spewing out stupid nonsense.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm 15 and I'm not as bad as him... :(

Sorry no offence intended, that was actually an uncool jab at the more thoughtful younger people here. Ashkay displays the normal irritating zealotry that often accompanies the newly converted, it probably doesn't have much to do with his age.

[hatzel]

Engels' On Authority is basically a summary of Marx's rebuttals of both Bakunin and Proudhon. I don't know how the latter has "nothing to do" with the former. (Also check out Poverty of Philosophy by Marx which refutes Proudhon's Philosophy of Poverty.)

Well yeah that's real cute and everything but none of these people are Negri or whoever so what's your point exactly?

[Akshay!]

Why the heck are people discussing anarchism and On Authority in a thread about autonomism? If you want to discuss the relation between autonomism and anarchism, fine - but don't use a 150 year old text as some form of authorative statement, at least not when the tendency itself is theoreticly based in marxism and leninism.

Because the fourth word of the thread's title is "Marxism"?

[The Feral Underclass]

Marx takes every single anarchist argument (including the one you mentioned) and systematically refutes it (in the text I mentioned). Engels' On Authority is basically a summary of Marx's rebuttals of both Bakunin and Proudhon. I don't know how the latter has "nothing to do" with the former. (Also check out Poverty of Philosophy by Marx which refutes Proudhon's Philosophy of Poverty.)

Autonomous Marxism isn't anarchism. I am asking you to explain to us why you think autonomous Marxism cannot be called Marxism.


Here's a collection of what Marx and Engels wrote specifically on the subject of Anarchism - http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/subject/anarchism/

That's cute. Unfortunately, most of the time, Marx was just wrong about anarchism.


Unfortunately it doesn't have the essay that I'm referring to but the basic arguments are the same.

Yes, I've had them numerous times. I'm familiar with what Marx thinks about anarchism.

[The Feral Underclass]

I'm 15 and I'm not as bad as him... :(

Yeah, people shouldn't use people's ages as a means of denigration. In fact ageism is against board policy if I remember correctly.

Being 15 doesn't make someone an idiot. Being stupid and uncritical makes someone an idiot.

[The Feral Underclass]

Because the fourth word of the thread's title is "Marxism"?

Anarchism and autonomous Marxism are not the same thing.

[svenne]

Because the fourth word of the thread's title is "Marxism"?

Yes. And the second word is "is"? You base your whole argument on a quote from Wikipedia, and then suddenly jump to linking an Engels text. About authority. Which has nothing at all, in any way, in common with standing outside and against the state, the reformist political parties, and the unions. While he in this text uses the word autonomists, i hope you do understand that he isn't critizising a movement which won't exist for another hundred years, but something entirely different. The autonomists of this day and age (at least in the form firmly grounded in the italian theories) does not attack all forms of authority, that's just something you made up. You also seems to be stuck in a world where nothing at all has changed since 1872, which scares me a bit, since i hope you know that computers are a pretty recent invention.

You make extremely little sense, and doesn't seem to bother with building arguments or anything, just throwing a lot of ill-informed crap at random people.

[Os Cangaceiros]

A mod should just trash all of Ashkay's posts in this thread, LOL. They have absolutely nothing to do with the topic at hand, not even peripherally.

Guess what bud, people like Antonio Negri and Mario Tronti came from backgrounds as militants in the Italian Socialist Party and the Communist Party of Italy. Noticing that you're getting fucked by the so-called representatives of the working class & struggling to find a resolution to this dilemma has what to do with anarchism again? :rolleyes:

[d3crypt]

I'm 15 and I'm not as bad as him... :(
I'm 15 too...:-(

[The Jay]

Will you or Karl Marx decide the meaning of Marxism? Read "Marx Debates Bakunin" (pg 542) in "The Marx Engels Reader" (Robert C Tucker).

If you're going to quote holy texts you could at least learn proper citation.

[Akshay!]

I'm 15


I'm 15 too...:-(

wow lol. :laugh:
Now I understand why none of you have ever read a word of Marx or Lenin.

[Point Blank]

If you are not answering the question in the opening post, knock it off.

[Akshay!]

If you are not answering the question in the opening post, knock it off.

says someone with "Tendency: Libertarian Marxist" lololol :laugh:

Try to understand this -

1) Marx was AGAINST libertarianism. I've mentioned some texts along with their links to prove that point.

2) Marx defines Marxism, you don't. You define what's Point Blankism, psychoism, theAnarchist Tensionism etc..

3) Libertarian Marxism is as oxymoronic as Fascist Democracy or Capitalist Classless Society.

4) Adding Marxism after something DOES NOT make it Marxist - i.e. related to the principle of dialectical materialism as defined by Marx and Engels.

[Taters]

wow lol. :laugh:
Now I understand why none of you have ever read a word of Marx or Lenin.


says someone with "Tendency: Libertarian Marxist" lololol :laugh:

Try to understand this -

1) Marx was AGAINST libertarianism. I've mentioned some texts along with their links to prove that point.

2) Marx defines Marxism, you don't. You define what's Point Blankism, psychoism, theAnarchist Tensionism etc..

3) Libertarian Marxism is as oxymoronic as Fascist Democracy or Capitalist Classless Society.

4) Adding Marxism after something DOES NOT make it Marxist - i.e. related to the principle of dialectical materialism as defined by Marx and Engels.

Get off the internet.

You know as little about Marxism as you do about anarchism or autonomism.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

A few questions

What are/were the relationship between the Brigate Rosse and autonomism? Were the Red Brigades an outgrowth of autonomism? Could Hardt & Negri be considered still within the autonomist tradition?

what happened to this movement, why did it collapse? The Italian radical left today seems almost non-existent, as shown by the success of a (literal) clown like Beppi Grillo.So what happened to autonomism?

Are there non-Italian autonomist thinkers today?

[Os Cangaceiros]

It's been a while since I read about the Red Brigades, but I'll take a stab at it. People can correct me if I'm wrong.

The Red Brigades started out as basically an informal working class organization in the northern Italian industrial centers of Milan and Turin, they grew out of the worker's council system there. A lot of their early activities were things like leafleting, burning the cars of scabs/strike-breakers, attacking unpopular bosses, etc. They had a lot of support at one time, esp. in northern Italy.

But the leadership of BR got paranoid (which wasn't completely uncalled for, because it was Cold War-era Italy). Some figures in BR thought that a fascist coup was imminent, probably involving extreme reactionaries coming to power with NATO's approval or something. The organization went underground and that's when all the abductions and shootings and murder and whatnot went on.

The ideology of BR was Marxist-Leninist and anti-imperialist. Similar in ideology to Red Army Faction in Germany or November 17 in Greece, I guess. They weren't autonomists.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Also Hardt and Negri's stuff is not the same as autonomism. Autonomism still had the working class as it's commonly understood to be it's revolutionary subject, with capital as the primary foe. Hardt & Negri had the oppositional relationship being one between "empire" (nations, corporations, NGO's, trade organizations, multinational instutions, etc.) and "multitude" (everyone who toils for empire, which includes the working class but goes far beyond it).

[Sasha]

It's been a while since I read about the Red Brigades, but I'll take a stab at it. People can correct me if I'm wrong.

The Red Brigades started out as basically an informal working class organization in the northern Italian industrial centers of Milan and Turin, they grew out of the worker's council system there. A lot of their early activities were things like leafleting, burning the cars of scabs/strike-breakers, attacking unpopular bosses, etc. They had a lot of support at one time, esp. in northern Italy.

But the leadership of BR got paranoid (which wasn't completely uncalled for, because it was Cold War-era Italy). Some figures in BR thought that a fascist coup was imminent, probably involving extreme reactionaries coming to power with NATO's approval or something. The organization went underground and that's when all the abductions and shootings and murder and whatnot went on.

The ideology of BR was Marxist-Leninist and anti-imperialist. Similar in ideology to Red Army Faction in Germany or November 17 in Greece, I guess. They weren't autonomists.


the confusion is one intentionally created by the italian state, they arrested Negri as the "idealogical leader" of the RB's and hundreds, thousands of Autonomists for "sympathizing with terrorism". this while there was no connection what so ever. only after this assault on autonomia many members joined the red brigades and prima linea (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prima_Linea) but they where solidly marxist-leninist around that time.

in general its important to realise that autonomia was a very, very broad movement, it included as discussed already "workerist" groups with a background firmly in leninism collectively known as Autonomia Operaia Organizzata but also an more Situationist like art and student movement known as autonomia difusa.
Automia was a mass movement, not an organization, brutal state repression changed the movement and its politics profoundly, its like looking at the turkish situation, while DHKC-P is an direct heir to DEV-YOL they are definitely not one on one the same...

[The Feral Underclass]

wow lol. :laugh:
Now I understand why none of you have ever read a word of Marx or Lenin.

What is your excuse?

[The Feral Underclass]

1) Marx was AGAINST libertarianism. I've mentioned some texts along with their links to prove that point.

What do you think libertarianism is?


2) Marx defines Marxism, you don't. You define what's Point Blankism, psychoism, theAnarchist Tensionism etc..

No. Marx never used the term Marxism.


3) Libertarian Marxism is as oxymoronic as Fascist Democracy or Capitalist Classless Society.

Why is this the case?


4) Adding Marxism after something DOES NOT make it Marxist - i.e. related to the principle of dialectical materialism as defined by Marx and Engels.

What do you think Marxism is? Explain to me what Marxism is.

[Sasha]

Note though that the the RB's where no small sect either, they had huge support and hundreds even thousands of members at a time, even the smaller prima linea had about 900 militants. So comparisons with the RAF or other urban guerrilla groups don't apply in that sense, their politics where pretty similar though indeed.

[Sasha]

For more on the red brigades and the brutal repression wiki: years of lead/strategy of tension and operation gladio/loge P2

[Sasha]

A few questions

What are/were the relationship between the Brigate Rosse and autonomism? Were the Red Brigades an outgrowth of autonomism? Could Hardt & Negri be considered still within the autonomist tradition?

what happened to this movement, why did it collapse? The Italian radical left today seems almost non-existent, as shown by the success of a (literal) clown like Beppi Grillo.So what happened to autonomism?

Are there non-Italian autonomist thinkers today?


While autonomism as marxist current is pretty much past both parts of its theory and its praxis live on, the squatting/social center movement is still very much alive in lots of places in the world including italy, and while i wouldnt call hardt & negri autonomists anymore their (earlier) work has been of big influence on groups like Tiqqun etc who's politics one would earlier call now "communization theory" but who, as part of a "movement" would be called "autonomist" by many, both insiders and outsiders.