Self Defence?

[Quail]

Some recent events have made me question how able I would be to defend myself, if it was necessary and I wondered if anyone had personal experience of a martial art or whatever that made them feel more able to defend themselves? I currently do Judo so was thinking I might branch out into Jiu Jitsu, but I don't really know if that would help me, or if it would just be a bit of fun. Any suggestions?

[Sasha]

kravmaga is easily the best readily available self defense system to master, esp for women (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_Maga). in most schools you do have to be able to bite back your opinions on the Palestine conflict and law-enforcement though.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I would say allow jiu jitsu. JJ is probably more helpful in helping you to master technical aspects of Judo, but it's not really a competitive sport, so i'm not sure that there is much in the way of a self-defence element to it.

If you want to stay with what you know, then there are aspects of no Gi Judo that will help make it a more practical MA in terms of self-defence.

Probably though you'll want to do something that involves striking - muay thai would be a good start, or you could just start MMA as they'll cover a variety of martial arts.

[Quail]

I went to a jiu jitsu class last night, was pretty fun so I think I'll keep it up, at least over the summer while there is only one Judo session a week. I suppose the self defence aspect comes from techniques tending to start from someone throwing a punch.

Some friends/comrades do muay thai so I could perhaps go along to that from time to time. It's just finding time/a babysitter. I'm not really that interested in striking arts though.

[Beeth]

Jiu jitsu is the easiest/least painful way to 'down' an opponent. You use the opponent's move/weight against him. But it requires remarkable concentration and practice.

[RedSonRising]

Grappling is very useful, but in the street, it can be a bit complicated and leave you vulnerable.

I may be biased as a fan/boxer and it's not the end-all be-all combat sport or self-defense system, but boxing allows you clean deterrence while staying mobile and never sacrificing your base (which is particularly useful against more than one assailant).

mTal1jCbRpc
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yawdeILXgW4

[Petrol Bomb]

Martial Arts is good for self-defense, and has health benefits along with it, as well as fun. But it takes time and dedication. If you are serious about self defense, you could always go with the option of purchasing a firearm (if laws permit, if or if not you want to follow them). It's much much faster to learn to handle. May not be practical though, keeping a firearm with you, everywhere you go, though it is pretty solid self defense. ^.^

EDIT:

I should also point out a martial art you may not have heard much about before. It's called Wing Chun. Purely self-defense. Eye-gouges, swift and efficient movements. Also, it is effective against larger attackers. You should research it a bit. Always watch out for McDojos though. Again, will take time and dedication, but it seems like a pretty good system.

[Sasha]

Aside from the fact that the OP is British carying a weapon in selfdefence is statisticaly a very bad idea, the increase in chance to end up a victim (either you yourself or a loved one, accidentally or intentionaly) from your own weapon outruns the chance you'll use it for selfdefence by massive percentages, if you have a toddler like the o.p. even more so.
Unless you live in bear country, are a career criminal, get stalked or the revolution started selfdefence weapons are plainly counter productive, if you have to carry anything, go for something non-lethal like mace or pepperspray.

[RedSonRising]

Grappling is very useful, but in the street, it can be a bit complicated and leave you vulnerable.

I may be biased as a fan/boxer and it's not the end-all be-all combat sport or self-defense system, but boxing allows you clean deterrence while staying mobile and never sacrificing your base (which is particularly useful against more than one assailant).

mTal1jCbRpc
S6OtvSHYzN4
yawdeILXgW4

Possibly more relevant than any of those in relation to my point:

qSX0PCQXiO4

[Sotionov]

I was mugged two times, and I started reasearching about what I can do about it. Yeah, I got krav maga lessons, and I work out and know how to defend myself in situations of not-insane-level-of-danger, but physical ableness is just the last instance of how to be safe. It's not about self-defence, but personal safety.

The pyramid of personal safety:


http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/images/pyramid.gif

It's explained here:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/pyramid.html

That site is one of the most helpful things I've read, go through it.

[Sotionov]

I just saw that the last post is a clip about how to win a fight by dodging, and it's thanked by dodger :laugh:

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Yeah, before you ever need to hit anyone, being able to project being fucking nuts is a good first line of defense. Last year, I saw someone who isn't me in a confrontation with a bigger guy, and he bit a chunk out of the bigger guy's hand. Buddy walked away without throwing another punch.

[cyu]

From http://web.archive.org/web/20020219173153/http://flag.blackened.net/agony/princip.html

Workers' Self-Defense


The bosses will not give up their power and wealth voluntarily. A period when the working class is beginning to pose a fundamental challenge to boss rule is likely to see violent clashes. Although we would want violence to be minimized, we recognize the use of armed force as legitimate in defending the movement for social change.

Since the workers' movement to reorganize society on the basis of self management cannot succeed without the breakup of the State and its armed machine, it is important to spread class-consciousness within the ranks of the armed forces and to link their concerns with those of workers in civilian life.
But the defense of the revolution must be the responsibility of a workers militia, organized and controlled by the workers' mass organizations, not an army or guerrilla force controlled by a minority, such as a political party. If working people are to have control over industry and society, they must also have direct, democratic control over the defense of their revolution.

[RedSonRising]

I just saw that the last post is a clip about how to win a fight by dodging, and it's thanked by dodger :laugh:

:grin: I know, I laughed at that too.

[d3crypt]

I would reccomend Shotokon Karate. I take it and it is extremely effective. Currently i am a first degree balck belt and i have taken It for 7-8 years. My Sensei mixes some MMA stuff into our training as well. I would feel confident to win almost any fight i get into as long is the opponent doesnt have a gun or knife. In that situaution its just best to surender.

[Ele'ill]

I would reccomend Shotokon Karate. I take it and it is extremely effective. Currently i am a first degree balck belt and i have taken It for 7-8 years. My Sensei mixes some MMA stuff into our training as well. I would feel confident to win almost any fight i get into

how many non-rules fights have you been in

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

Yeah, before you ever need to hit anyone, being able to project being fucking nuts is a good first line of defense. Last year, I saw someone who isn't me in a confrontation with a bigger guy, and he bit a chunk out of the bigger guy's hand. Buddy walked away without throwing another punch.

Yeah, either that or showing that you genuinely couldn't care less about getting hit or hitting them. I got punched a few times as a kid mostly because I had a tantrum when people were being assholes, but never punched back. People usually stop punching you if they notice you have no interest in hurting them.

[Ele'ill]

Yeah, either that or showing that you genuinely couldn't care less about getting hit or hitting them. I got punched a few times as a kid mostly because I had a tantrum when people were being assholes, but never punched back. People usually stop punching you if they notice you have no interest in hurting them.

this is terrible advice

[Tifosi]

Yeah, before you ever need to hit anyone, being able to project being fucking nuts is a good first line of defense. Last year, I saw someone who isn't me in a confrontation with a bigger guy, and he bit a chunk out of the bigger guy's hand. Buddy walked away without throwing another punch.

I have seen this back fire incredibly badly. It either works or it makes everything worse.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

I have seen this back fire incredibly badly. It either works or it makes everything worse.

yeah, my old Judo coach said there are two ways to go about self defence - you either let the blinkers come on, go fucking mental and attempt to pound your enemy(s) into submission and see how it goes, or you actually learn a self-defence method.

I guess some people can have the best self-defence technique in the world, but as soon as a surprise fight situation comes in, the 'fight' instead of flight mechanism kicks in and the red mist descends.

[apoState]

Jiu-jitsu is great in the event the fight goes to the ground. But in a street fight you likely don't WANT the fight to go to the ground. Ideally you should supplement it with a standing style like boxing.

The most bad ass fighters I have rolled with were proficient in Jiu-jitsu and Muay Thai.

Krav Maga is great if you have limited time to train and can help get you out of a sticky situation if your opponent isn't a practiced fighter. But try using it against even an average boxer and you are in for a world of hurt.

The thing about boxing and Muay Thai is in practice you get hit. You don't want the first time you experience an upper cut to be an actual fight.

[Red HalfGuard]

As a certified judo coach myself, I can say that judo is an excellent system for self defense. Stick with it and add some jits too (which i've been doing for a while, as you can probably tell from my handle) and you'll have 95% of all possible confrontations on lockdown.

I can't reccomend Krav Maga at all. Lot of "too deadly to spar" people. Not at all a scientific way of going about things.

[Red HalfGuard]

Also if any comrades are in the DC area, i'm available to give lessons

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

As a certified judo coach myself, I can say that judo is an excellent system for self defense. Stick with it and add some jits too (which i've been doing for a while, as you can probably tell from my handle) and you'll have 95% of all possible confrontations on lockdown.

I can't reccomend Krav Maga at all. Lot of "too deadly to spar" people. Not at all a scientific way of going about things.

I've had to remove your Youtube handle and the link to a picture of you from your post. We don't accept the posting of personal information on the forum - you don't know who is lurking around here so it's for everyone's benefit that this is an anonymous board.

I won't give you a verbal warning this time, but just have a read through of the rules to make sure you're on board with the policy - saves a lot of trouble down the line!

Interesting post, though - I fully endorse what you say about Judo's ability as a self-defence system.

[ВАЛТЕР]

I've been boxing competitively in the amateur ranks for 8+ years now. Boxing is good for self-defense I'd say. Served me fine every time I've been in a tight spot. I think that the most important thing in any combat sport is sparring. You can hit bags and work focus pads to your hearts content, but until you see what it is like to get hit, pushed, held, etc. you can't really expect yourself to react accordingly in a situation. So, I'd say go for any martial art that involves good sparring.

[Red HalfGuard]

I think that the most important thing in any combat sport is sparring. You can hit bags and work focus pads to your hearts content, but until you see what it is like to get hit, pushed, held, etc. you can't really expect yourself to react accordingly in a situation. So, I'd say go for any martial art that involves good sparring.

This is important enough that it deserves requoting. This is easier to do in grappling though as it presents less wear and tear on the body. But for striking, boxing is an excellent base.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Yeah, either that or showing that you genuinely couldn't care less about getting hit or hitting them. I got punched a few times as a kid mostly because I had a tantrum when people were being assholes, but never punched back. People usually stop punching you if they notice you have no interest in hurting them.

I don't know where you're getting this from but when someone physically assaults you they're not likely going to stop if you 'don't fight back'. Hence the entire point of self-defence.

[Sotionov]

As a certified judo coach myself, I can say that judo is an excellent system for self defense. Stick with it and add some jits too (which i've been doing for a while, as you can probably tell from my handle) and you'll have 95% of all possible confrontations on lockdown.

I can't reccomend Krav Maga at all. Lot of "too deadly to spar" people. Not at all a scientific way of going about things.
Judo, (kick-)boxing, karate, all that stuff is great for high school fights. But if someone wants to mug you, or if someone who's familiar with 'street' dirty fighting attacks you, none of that is going to help you. No sporty competition 'martial art' is going to help you against someone who's going to stomp your foot, kick your shin or knee, knee your groin, slap or grab your ear, go at your eyes and collar bones, bite you, hit your throat, spine, temples, let alone if he has a knife, broken bottle or some improvised club. So if it's "winning fights" that's the goal, then "martial arts" are ok, but if it's genuine self-defense one wants, one goes to train krav-maga.

But I want to say again, and I can't stress this enough- self defense is just the last instance of personal safety, and one should firstly get to know and practice the first six steps of personal safety, as I mentioned in the #10 post of this topic.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Judo is an incredibly useful form of self-defence, actually. As is boxing, kickboxing, thai kickboxing and other martial arts such as wing chun etc.

To dismiss all martial arts as useless shows great ignorance. Many people have used martial arts, in real-life situations, to their advantage in self-defence situations. To say 'only' krav-maga is useful in self-defence, again, is highly arrogant and foolish.

[Ele'ill]

Judo, (kick-)boxing, karate, all that stuff is great for high school fights. But if someone wants to mug you, or if someone who's familiar with 'street' dirty fighting attacks you, none of that is going to help you. No sporty competition 'martial art' is going to help you against someone who's going to stomp your foot, kick your shin or knee, knee your groin, slap or grab your ear, go at your eyes and collar bones, bite you, hit your throat, spine, temples, let alone if he has a knife, broken bottle or some improvised club. So if it's "winning fights" that's the goal, then "martial arts" are ok, but if it's genuine self-defense one wants, one goes to train krav-maga.

But I want to say again, and I can't stress this enough- self defense is just the last instance of personal safety, and one should firstly get to know and practice the first six steps of personal safety, as I mentioned in the #10 post of this topic.

I take it you've never trained in a combat ma. I would put money down on bjj, boxing, muay thai, no-gi grappling, wrestling over some mugger who wants to poke out eyeballs or 'fight dirty' because there is nothing as dirty or gritty as the basics of actual combat sports (thai elbows, knees, head butts have you seen a mid line thai kick, take downs that you have no experience defending against, submissions that you have no experience defending against).

[Sasha]

i used to do judo to a pretty high belt but my muay thay and limited kravmaga experience have proofed way more usefull because i do have to say that in my experience (as an bouncer and an militant antifascist) going to the ground is the worst possible thing to do in a streetfight, there is always an second asshole lurking somewhere who will seize the opportunity to dropkick you in the face.

but the good stance an physical awareness that any MA will give you is already often half of the work getting out of an situation threatening to become physical.

[Ele'ill]

Judo is an incredibly useful form of self-defence, actually. As is boxing, kickboxing, thai kickboxing and other martial arts such as wing chun etc.

To dismiss all martial arts as useless shows great ignorance. Many people have used martial arts, in real-life situations, to their advantage in self-defence situations. To say 'only' krav-maga is useful in self-defence, again, is highly arrogant and foolish.

I agree with most of this but we can compare martial arts. There are some that are beautiful and highly technical in an awe inspiring way but closer related to dance and not effective as a combat art/sport/defense/offense etc.. I think we can always learn and always borrow from various martial arts but the practical and necessary trend has been that the combat arts/sports remain the base with fighters borrowing minor aspects of other arts that influence their technique of the base (if borrowing at all). As was mentioned half a dozen times already in this thread, actual sparring/fights give you experience and that is what is key. If you can't actively practice half/full speed full contact sparring then you are not conditioning yourself to react realistically in a real world situation.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

yeah I agree, I wasn't saying ALL ma's are always useful, just that conversely he was wrong to say NO ma's are useful in a street fight.

[Sotionov]

Judo is an incredibly useful form of self-defence, actually. As is boxing, kickboxing, thai kickboxing and other martial arts such as wing chun etc.

To dismiss all martial arts as useless shows great ignorance.
To use strawman also shows great ingnorance. I didn't say they are useless. Someone who's in judo or boxing has a lot more chance against an attack then someone who didn't train anything, but someone who's in krav-maga or similar self-defense art training is in a way better position then someone who is in some martial sport training.


I take it you've never trained in a combat ma. I would put money down on bjj, boxing, muay thai, no-gi grappling, wrestling over some mugger who wants to poke out eyeballs or 'fight dirty' because there is nothing as dirty or gritty as the basics of actual combat sports (thai elbows, knees, head butts have you seen a mid line thai kick, take downs that you have no experience defending against, submissions that you have no experience defending against).
No, I haven't, but I was a soccer huligan for some time when younger, and had a bunch of friends that were in kick-boxing, thai-boxing, karate, with whom I went into a bunch of fights. A guy I knew from there who had medals in kyokushin, who has been in a lot fights and kicked a lot of asses got his knee f-cked up in a fight against a proper street fighter (who slapped his ear and then kicked his knee) and will not walk properly the rest of his life, and a lot of them got hurt a bunch of times because they were trained in a certain way and did not expect dirty punches.

Sure, a boxer should be able to kick some bully's ass easily, but if one is up against someone who's an efficiant violent criminal, the boxer, or any other martial athlete, is propably going to get hurt badly.

[Ele'ill]

To use strawman also shows great ingnorance. I didn't say they are useless. Someone who's in judo or boxing has a lot more chance against an attack then someone who didn't train anything, but someone who's in krav-maga or similar self-defense art training is in a way better position then someone who is in some martial sport training.

I completely disagree with this and would put money on a boxer, bjj student or thai fighter against someone trained in krav maga 100% no doubt.



No, I haven't, but I was a soccer huligan for some time when younger, and had a bunch of friends that were in kick-boxing, thai-boxing, karate, with whom I went into a bunch of fights. A guy I knew from there who had medals in kyokushin, who has been in a lot fights and kicked a lot of asses got his knee f-cked up in a fight against a proper street fighter (who slapped his ear and then kicked his knee) and will not walk properly the rest of his life, and a lot of them got hurt a bunch of times because they were trained in a certain way and did not expect dirty punches.Traditional ma's are problematic in that they train under specific choreographed situations of attack that don't mimic real combat fight scenarios that are fluent, alive and changing by the second. Combat sports are training in fighting, period. I don't consider kyokushin and other types of karate, tkd, etc.. to be combat sports.


Sure, a boxer should be able to kick some bully's ass easily, but if one is up against someone who's an efficiant violent criminal, the boxer, or any other martial athlete, is propably going to get hurt badly.this is simply wrong

[Quail]

I actually spoke to someone at the Scarborough judo club (took my kit and trained on holiday haha) who said she'd used her Judo in self-defence loads because she works in a shop where people quite often try to rob the place. Different situation to a street fight I suppose, though.

For the time being I'll probably have to stick with Judo and Jiu Jitsu, simply for practical purposes (it's hard to get babysitting for any more days) but I'll perhaps try and get down to a Muay Thai session every once in a while (I think the local hunt sabs do self defence together so maybe should get in touch with them).

At least doing martial arts twice a week (hoping to get that up to three times) will give me a good level of fitness I suppose.

[Sotionov]

Traditional ma's are problematic in that they train under specific choreographed situations of attack that don't mimic real combat fight scenarios that are fluent, alive and changing by the second.
If you think that combat sports are any better, then I don't think you've seen real criminal encounters happening. If you think that boxing prepares you for kicks to the shin and knee; that bjj prepares you for ear pulling and biting; or that thai box training prepares you for knees to the groin and throat punches- it is you who's simply wrong. I have an acquaintance from the KM training, a small jewish guy, and we hung out on some gigs, being that we listened to similar music, he was into KM for years, and was pretty fit, but nevertheless, I've seen him demolish kick-boxing and mma right-wingers basically with ease, and it's simply a fact- no sporty training prepares you for dirty fighting. And in situations where real self-defence is needed, the assailant isn't going to play nice.

[Red HalfGuard]

Sure, a boxer should be able to kick some bully's ass easily, but if one is up against someone who's an efficiant violent criminal, the boxer, or any other martial athlete, is propably going to get hurt badly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJX9QnrZtfc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4BvnrlfCQI
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08mSN2ol5ek
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gy8O0OLZ21c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4vY55zSP5M
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6V97Pnljj7I
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3CC9F0EcNw

[Ele'ill]

If you think that combat sports are any better, then I don't think you've seen real criminal encounters happening.

(most criminal hardmen worth their salt train boxing, muay thai, bjj or a combination just go down the list of legends)



If you think that boxing prepares you for kicks to the shin and knee;

anyone suggesting that they're a capable fighter who utilizes 'kicks to the shins' instead of kicks and blocks with the shins needs to refocus their studies and if you don't understand what I am talking about then you should refocus too



that bjj prepares you for ear pulling and biting;

actually it does because if someone were to be on the ground with someone skilled in bjj they wouldn't last long enough to do it (and the bjj person could also bite and ear pull)




or that thai box training prepares you for knees to the groin and throat punches-

actually much like boxing but even more so it teaches you how to get in and out of range of most attacks and an elbow, knee, or kick to the head is about as deadly as a hit to the throat in other words don't let the other person knock you out because they can do anything they want to you afterwards

also the thai boxer can deliver the attack to the groin and throat but with much more accuracy and velocity



it is you who's simply wrong. I have an acquaintance from the KM training, a small jewish guy, and we hung out on some gigs, being that we listened to similar music, he was into KM for years, and was pretty fit, but nevertheless, I've seen him demolish kick-boxing and mma right-wingers basically with ease, and it's simply a fact- no sporty training prepares you for dirty fighting. And in situations where real self-defence is needed, the assailant isn't going to play nice.

anecdotes don't mean anything though I think we should debate using logic and theory which you tried to do at first in your post here even though you're obviously wrong as I have demonstrated in my replies



wall of youtube links

lol I didn't even want to take it this far but a cursory google search shows just how often trained actual fighters trained to fight fuck up people who aren't fighters and are not trained to fight both 'street fighters/criminals/idiots and non combat oriented ma practitioners

[Sotionov]

You just provided clips that confirm my comment that sport is great if you want to take care of a bully. In any of those clips, if those sport practicioners were attacked by an experienced, efficient criminal, they would have their larynxed or eyes hurt bad, or some similar injuries. And being that a lot of real assailants will carry a knife, or will use bottles or similar stuff nearby, trying to grapple someone with a blade who knows how to use it is just a stupid way to put your life in great risk.

[Sotionov]

(most criminal hardmen worth their salt train boxing, muay thai, bjj or a combination just go down the list of legends)
I'm talking about the organized crime goons. I'm talking about the above-the-average street criminal that knows how to hurt you.


anyone suggesting that they're a capable fighter who utilizes 'kicks to the shins' instead of kicks and blocks with the shins needs to refocus their studies and if you don't understand what I am talking about then you should refocus too
You're talking like you can't break the mentality of competition rules and the forms of fighting that are accepted there. Except against a thai boxer that's been conditioning his shins for years, short jab-like front kicks to the shin and knee, are very effective in fights, I know that from experiance and have used it against boxers.


actually it does because if someone were to be on the ground with someone skilled in bjj they wouldn't last long enough to do it (and the bjj person could also bite and ear pull)
If you think you're going to go ground grappling in an robbery by an efficient criminal or criminals, you're simply deluded.


also the thai boxer can deliver the attack to the groin and throat but with much more accuracy and velocity
Not only is the thai boxer (or any other combar sport athlete) not trained to go against dirty punches, he is positevely trained to expect attacks that are within the rules. And crimes like serious assaults and robberies are not conducted in the scope of competitive martial art fighting rules.

[Ele'ill]

You just provided clips that confirm my comment that sport is great if you want to take care of a bully. In any of those clips, if those sport practicioners were attacked by an experienced, efficient criminal, they would have their larynxed or eyes hurt bad, or some similar injuries. And being that a lot of real assailants will carry a knife, or will use bottles or similar stuff nearby, trying to grapple someone with a blade who knows how to use it is just a stupid way to put your life in great risk.

You are so ridiculous. First, 'criminal' is a legal term. If a criminal that was experienced in criminal activity (lol) but inexperienced in fighting/combat sports went toe to toe with someone who was experienced in fighting/combat sports the criminal would get thumped. This happens every day. If someone has a weapon, walk the other way, I don't even believe for a second that kali or krav maga can protect someone let alone get someone out of a situation unscathed. The stories of such are highly sensationalized and exaggerated. This is all beyond the point of what you originally said. Fighters fight and would give a licking to many other ma's including those involved in krav maga and definitely to those people who have no fighting background. To suggest otherwise is a symptom of inexperience.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

My incredibly bad-ass (I don't mean 'dickhead' badass, I mean quietly efficient knows what he's doing badass) former Judo coach, who had trained security forces in close combat, emphasised time and again that the Judo moves he taught us, he had also applied in close combat situations.

For example, that seoi-nage is an incredibly useful technique against someone attempting a straight down hammer stab to the head, particularly ippon seoi-nage. It's logical, it uses the principles in many ways of jitsu, in terms of using your opponents force to defeat them, and as he said, it works.

I don't know enough about krav maga or whatever to comment on their absolute effectiveness, but I do know that Judo, Jitsu, Boxing, Kickboxing/Muay Thai are extremely effective in self-defence and close combat situations. To say otherwise shows ignorance.

[Ele'ill]

I'm talking about the organized crime goons. I'm talking about the above-the-average street criminal that knows how to hurt you.

unless they train to fight other highly skilled fighters they do not know how to hurt me hand 2 hand



You're talking like you can't break the mentality of competition rules and the forms of fighting that are accepted there.

In the combat sports I have been talking about, the competition rules still set those fighting arts at a level so far beyond traditional non-fighting martial arts and people with no fighting background that it isn't even worth comparing unless you are an idiot.




Except against a thai boxer that's been conditioning his shins for years,

oh yeah except for that :rolleyes:



short jab-like front kicks to the shin and knee, are very effective in fights,

no they are not








I know that from experiance and have used it against boxers.

:rolleyes:






If you think you're going to go ground grappling in an robbery by an efficient criminal or criminals, you're simply deluded.

No but grappling would offer up a clear win against a krav maga practitioner.



Not only is the thai boxer (or any other combar sport athlete) not trained to go against dirty punches, he is positevely trained to expect attacks that are within the rules.

you are confusing your theory, combat sports were birthed and evolved from the criticism that traditional ma's don't offer an alive fighting style


however arts like kali and krav maga offer original ma theory based on sets of predictable scenarios much like karate etc.. :lol:




And crimes like serious assaults and robberies are not conducted in the scope of competitive martial art fighting rules.

the combat sports I am talking about are not competitive martial arts they are combat sports, NHB, MMA etc..

[Sotionov]

If a criminal that was experienced in criminal activity (lol) but inexperienced in fighting/combat sports went toe to toe with someone who was experienced in fighting/combat sports the criminal would get thumped. Not true. I've beaten boxers and karatekas without any training except my soccer hooligan street fighting experience- because they don't train for dirty fighting, it's simply as that.


If someone has a weapon, walk the other way, I don't even believe for a second that kali or krav maga can protect someone let alone get someone out of a situation unscathed.I started doing krav maga when two guys with knives mugged me, and though I am not confident to respond in a such a situation, I did have a chance to respond against a kid with a knife, and I took it- I feinted fear, positioned my hands, and went straight at the throat while simultaneously blocking his knige-hand, and it worked like a charm.

[Ele'ill]

Not true. I've beaten..

no you haven't



I started doing krav maga when two guys with knives mugged me, and though I am not confident to respond in a such a situation,ask your instructor to allow two guys in your class to attack him full contact with real knives, ask him to allow one



I did have a chance to respond against a kid with a knife, and I took it- I feinted fear, positioned my hands, and went straight at the throat while simultaneously blocking his knige-hand, and it worked like a charm.:lol:

[Sotionov]

In the combat sports I have been talking about, the competition rules still set those fighting arts at a level so far beyond traditional non-fighting martial arts and people with no fighting background that it isn't even worth comparing unless you are an idiot.What's idiotic is thinking that training for fights with rules can prepare you for fights with literally no rules.


no they are not Oh yes they are.


No but grappling would offer up a clear win against a krav maga practitioner.You would never get to that point against a KM practitioner. Good thing is that virtually all KM trainers will not train people that were convicted for violent crimes, and exibit violent tendencies.


the combat sports I am talking about are not competitive martial arts they are combat sports, NHB, MMA etc..They are sports. They have rules.

[Red HalfGuard]

If you think you're going to go ground grappling in an robbery by an efficient criminal or criminals, you're simply deluded.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GBdpYa19-AQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdZTsdUFhj0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBToCp_IuvE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qkSulF3IzS0

(Ignore or actively criticize the racist tone in some of these)

Duder you've placed your martial art beyond falsifiability via the No True Scotsman fallacy. You really need to start evaluating things objectively, not through anecdotes.

[Ele'ill]

What's idiotic is thinking that training for fights with rules can prepare you for fights with literally no rules.

It can for the reasons I've stated already but I'll restate- the combat arts train you for an organic flowing real life situation and not a specific set of well scripted steps that you know how to react to as the person you're training with fully obliges. The amount of things allowed in combat sports under various rules are more than enough to end fights against highly trained opponents in said flowing alive fight with nothing choreographed. Non-fighters don't stand a chance. Shin kicks? Eye gouges? Ear pulling? why would I have my hands down that would be dangerous anyways for all strikes coming at me even incidental eye poking etc..




Oh yes they are.

You would never get to that point against a KM practitioner. Good thing is that virtually all KM trainers will not train people that were convicted for violent crimes, and exibit violent tendencies.

They are sports. They have rules.

I guess what I'm saying is that even the fighters I'm talking about can use small joint manipulation, eye gouging, and groin strikes so your km trainers would be even more out of their league but I doubt this logical next step in thinking applies to you here since it is easier for you to ignore away things like this

[Red HalfGuard]

"It'll never work in the real world because it has rules." is the new "Communism will never work in the real world because human nature." and no matter how many counterexamples are cited, people like Sotionov will never believe them.

Also note his weirdo exoticism of the lumpen classes via coded language: "hardened criminals" and such.

[Quail]

lol this has become a bit of an internet hardman thread sorry

[Red HalfGuard]

No, it's about how you ignore evidence that contradicts you and exoticise people in the lumpen classes. But then you were perfectly happy with the tone when you talked about destroying boxers on the street.

[Sotionov]

It can for the reasons I've stated already but I'll restate- the combat arts train you for an organic flowing real life situation and not a specific set of well scripted steps that you know how to react to as the person you're training with fully obliges.
The "organic flow" of fights that any sport practitioner accustomes himself to by definition excludes the very things that are the most dangerous things in fights without rules- kicks and punches to the knees, groin, throat, eyes, ears, spine, using anything handy as a weapon, or using a knife.

That is why the only thing that can really prepare someone for self-defence is, logically- training that is specificly made to train you for self-defence, such as krav maga.


No, it's about how you ignore evidence that contradicts you and exoticise people in the lumpen classes.
More like you ignoring sane thought and refusing to get out of your idealist preconception of sport training. Also, what's exoticising? When talking about criminals, I was also talking about myself, being that I was a hooligan, who had beaten people up for no other reason then we having a fight because we supported different football teams.

[RedCloud]

Personally a weapon or some knuckle dusters. I have a couple of them and some knives. I doubt I'll ever need them where I am living now though. Also probably going to take a gun saftey course soon because I like recreational shooting - though someone mentioned you were British and I don't know how they look on other weapons but you can't really get a gun.

I took wresting in high school, which certainly wouldn't be the best but being able to grapple and take someone down easily, quickly and properly would certainly be useful knowledge. There are also techniques you can learn for disarming someone, or wrist/arm control, etc.

This is pretty funny but Bas Rutten is a good fighter in reality.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O-pd3ekzVr8

Like a Bas. :D
Of course you won't be slitting someone's throat in self defense, I shared it because he goes over some good things about getting arm control later on in the video.

[Ele'ill]

lol this has become a bit of an internet hardman thread sorry

fighting shouldn't be about hardmen though, or rather, lots of folks should allowed to be hard without having to be hardmen, and we are talking about some tough things

[Ele'ill]

The "organic flow" of fights that any sport practitioner accustomes himself to by definition excludes the very things that are the most dangerous things in fights without rules- kicks and punches to the knees, groin, throat, eyes, ears, spine, using anything handy as a weapon, or using a knife.

none of those things are as useful as the regular basics of those combat ma's which i've said now about ten times


That is why the only thing that can really prepare someone for self-defence is, logically- training that is specificly made to train you for self-defence, such as krav maga.ask your trainer to allow live weapons in class, or a thai boxer same thing

[Red HalfGuard]

From the 20s until very recently, everything Sotionov is big upping was allowed in Vale Tudo matches and they looked pretty much exactly the same.

But like I said, Sotionov has placed his assertions beyond the realm of falsifiability. No matter what evidence he's presented with, he'll continue moving the goalposts.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

however arts like kali and krav maga offer original ma theory based on sets of predictable scenarios much like karate etc.. :lol:

Isn't Kali that South-East Asian martial art that was banned by the Spanish colonialists because of how incredibly dangerous it was getting for them in skirmishes with locals?

[darkblues]

db

[Ele'ill]

Isn't Kali that South-East Asian martial art that was banned by the Spanish colonialists because of how incredibly dangerous it was getting for them in skirmishes with locals?

I think a lot of buzz surrounding certain ma's fall entirely on the physical weapons used (which get overlooked with emphasis being put on some almost magical element of the ma), its emergence within a certain historical time period that sets it or the weapons used above some opposing forces or at least which levels the playing field in some skirmishes, and an unrealistic expectation of out comes due to a mystical generalization of it's effectiveness because of the above two things. I actually really like Kali. It is a beautiful art and I want to take it badly. I think it probably has some uses against slow moving or stationary opponents in some situations (if you've seen the movie The Hunted you'll get to see all kinds of neat assassination sequences with just the knife). In the video below you can see that they train stationary, slow speed and full speed but the general reaction both in the defensive and offensive movements against the target is relatively scripted and the opponent doesn't flinch, doesn't hesitate and change course etc.. now the catch is if you are in a knife fight like that it is possible to completely wing it and inflict damage with no Kali experience at all. I mean, you're slashing at someone with a knife. I think if someone cross trained through muay thai, bjj, etc.. were to be attacked by someone with a knife they wouldn't do some of the things that the training target is doing and if you were to miss with some of those knife strikes all it would take is one miss to open up for some counter attack. A beautiful art that probably has some merit, mainly because it teaches some positioning and how to target vitals with edged weapons.

K2sYDe86qhU

The Hunted

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and stick fighting too

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[cyu]

The civilian fights using his hands.

The mugger fights using a knife or handgun.

The riot police fights using clubs and tear gas launchers.

The SWAT team fights using rifles and body armor.

The mayor fights using police.

The general fights using soldiers.

The capitalist fights using bribes.

The propagandist fights using the media.

The revolutionary fights using anything and everything ;)

[Red HalfGuard]

Youtube search the Dog Brothers to see some escrima/kali/arnis in action, mixed with muay thai and bjj

[herminiadalton]

According to me, Judo is good but you can also go for taekwondo lessons. It will teach you one of the best self defense lessons (https://plus.google.com/109961623743501378349).

[BIXX]

According to me, Judo is good but you can also go for taekwondo lessons. It will teach you one of the best self defense lessons (https://plus.google.com/109961623743501378349).
Why did you do this? The thread was long dead you bastard.

[RedKobra]

I would say allow jiu jitsu. JJ is probably more helpful in helping you to master technical aspects of Judo, but it's not really a competitive sport, so i'm not sure that there is much in the way of a self-defence element to it.

If you want to stay with what you know, then there are aspects of no Gi Judo that will help make it a more practical MA in terms of self-defence.

Probably though you'll want to do something that involves striking - muay thai would be a good start, or you could just start MMA as they'll cover a variety of martial arts.

This.

Jui-jitsu is great but unless I was really, seriously good I wouldn't want to try to defend myself against someone who was armed. There's just so much room for error and one mistake and you're screwed. Great martial art though.
Muay Thai is awesome. I did it for a while before my knees gave out. You really won't need anything else. It's the tightest technique I've ever come across in terms of attack and defense. Knees, elbows, kicks, punches. No frills, just efficiency.
I did Wado-ryu Karate as a kid and really wouldn't waste my time with that. Looking back I think it made me worse at defending myself than before I started. Too much emphasis on form and co-operation from your opponent. If you're up against someone who isn't doing karate/Kung-Fu, basically they'll completely throw you off.

[envelope]

I train BJJ and and have boxed for many years. If I got in a street fight I would respond with my BJJ for sure. You can control the other person and minimise the damage done to them while maintaining maximum control over their body, meaning when the law shows up your not getting trouble because you beat the crap out of them, also many people sustain real brain injury when they get knocked out and hit their head on the concrete, if you KO someone in the street there is a real chance you catch flack if they have brain damage or even just a big cut. BJJ means this doesn't happen, plus it's really easy to break your hand on someones forehead, better to control them and choke them out if you have to have the fight IMO

[Antiochus]

BJJ/Wrestling are the only martial arts I would recommend for someone who isn't a physical animal. Most 'fights' devolve into ground fights anyway. In ground fighting TKD, Karate, Boxing become totally useless since these sports do not permit anything but striking contact.

People then say something like "do Krav Maga!!! It is practiced by the IDF special forces!!!". Ok first off, Krav Maga is basically throat hitting, eye gouging and testicle kicking/punching. That sounds all well and nice but keep a few basic things in your mind:

1) No Krav Maga practitioner has ACTUALLY practiced these things against a reactive opponent (for obvious reasons). In your mind, if you practice Krav Maga you think you are like Sylvester Stallone reborn, but actually more like this guy:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzh9koy7b1E

2) Krav Maga depends on a quick "death" combo. Once you fail at this and you get in a tussle with someone ~50 lbs heavier than you, you will lose.

But off course, if you are weaker than your opponent, always just run away. Fight only as a truly last resort. And never, ever, ever, ever try this against more than 1 attacker. Unfortunately people don't "fight fair" (1 at a time).

For a woman a gun is the best defence but if that fails BJJ is very good vs imbalanced (i.e drunk harassers, potential rapists etc...) opponents.

Finally, BJJ actually allows you to humanely (if thats your thing) put down your opponent without causing major injury or death (but you can if you wanted to).

[BIXX]

Agree with antiochus.

I've been interested in learning self defense in a situation where someone has a knife and for whatever reason I can't get away. I would assume that means I should train in Kali. Any better recommendations?

[Sasha]

Krav maga puts heavy emphasis on disarmament and asymmetric self defense

[Sewer Socialist]

Agree with antiochus.

I've been interested in learning self defense in a situation where someone has a knife and for whatever reason I can't get away. I would assume that means I should train in Kali. Any better recommendations?

Kali is what I would have said. It seems like it is super-focused on weapons, including asymmetrical situations, and specifically including knives.

That said, putting some focus on getting away is pretty useful, too. :)

[Antiochus]

Krav Maga is generall useless in an actual combat situation unless you are a trained soldier. Most people have a hard time killing someone as it is, much less with their bare hands.

Furthermore, the "civilians" that practice Krav Maga don't actually do reactive practice vs opponents. Grabbing someone's testicles and crushing them sounds great until you realize jeans make it really hard/almost impossible. Krav Maga assumes an enormous amount of compliance on the part of the attacker that is generally just not there.

If you are attacked by multiple attackers and you can't get away... sorry but you are pretty much fucked. Your only hope is to deal a quick strike vs 1 opponent and scare the rest of. Fighting more than 1 person when you are already weaker then all of them individually is next to impossible.

However, doing SOMETHING is usually better than doing nothing. Rapes, some types of murders, kidnapping require a lot of compliance from the victim.

[Cliff Paul]

You can control the other person and minimise the damage done to them while maintaining maximum control over their body

This is really important, and also another one of the disadvantages of Krav Maga. Unless you are truly in a life-or-death situation, I can't imagine that people would have the stomach to gouge someone's eyes or go for their throat (and even then, I wonder how many people could actually carry that out).

[Quail]

I think it's pretty important to do a sport where you actually get to spar. I think in a life or death situation I'd definitely fight dirty, but it's useful to practice against an opponent who is actually trying to hit or throw you.

[cyu]

Depending on how much "real life" experience you want, you can always train by intentionally going into real life dangerous situations, and see how well you handle yourself there. But if things turn out bad, be sure you have enough friends with you who suddenly pop out and scare them off.

On the other hand, if many conflicts require resolution by group activity, then we're getting into the realm of politics. It's much easier to train for those scenarios online, since you can just pop into any random debate forum.

[Sasha]

I think it's pretty important to do a sport where you actually get to spar. I think in a life or death situation I'd definitely fight dirty, but it's useful to practice against an opponent who is actually trying to hit or throw you.


like said, a big part about successful self defence is mental control over your fight/flight reflex, projecting a self confident stance (not scared but also not hyper aggressive) will allow you to walk away from 9 out of 10 confrontations without getting a punch or needing to throw one.
any MA with full contact sparring is good for this, some a bit better, some a bit worse. for those confrontations that do end up in a physical confrontation you need technique, here there is a huge difference in more and less valuable MA's, kickboxing/muaythai is obviously superior to boxing in a street fight, BJJ better than judo, MMA better than wrestling etc etc.

therefor i would advise anyone who just want to be able to defend themselves to train any full contact sport they happen to enjoy and are able to keep a regular training schedule in and next to that take a few classes in kravmaga or another streetfighting system.
if you need it for work (if you work security) or live in a seriously fucked up aggressively environment (punk/gay/imigrant in eastern-europe for example) i advise raising your streetfighting system to the same level as your more traditional MA, just make sure that here too they train full contact/stressdrills.

i admit though that this ask a lot, i for one, even while i need it for work already find it impossible to keep my kickboxing training at an acceptable level, let alone do regular kravmaga training next to it.

but if i had time/discpline for it this would be my ideal training schedule;

monday;
condition training
kickboxing technique/sparring training

wednesday;
heavy bag training
MMA technique/sparring training

friday;
kravmaga technique
kravmaga stressdrills

[Sasha]

Depending on how much "real life" experience you want, you can always train by intentionally going into real life dangerous situations, and see how well you handle yourself there. But if things turn out bad, be sure you have enough friends with you who suddenly pop out and scare them off.

stop giving dangerous advice


On the other hand, if many conflicts require resolution by group activity, then we're getting into the realm of politics. It's much easier to train for those scenarios online, since you can just pop into any random debate forum.

stop giving stupid advice

[Sasha]

Krav Maga is generall useless in an actual combat situation unless you are a trained soldier. Most people have a hard time killing someone as it is, much less with their bare hands.

Furthermore, the "civilians" that practice Krav Maga don't actually do reactive practice vs opponents. Grabbing someone's testicles and crushing them sounds great until you realize jeans make it really hard/almost impossible. Krav Maga assumes an enormous amount of compliance on the part of the attacker that is generally just not there.

If you are attacked by multiple attackers and you can't get away... sorry but you are pretty much fucked. Your only hope is to deal a quick strike vs 1 opponent and scare the rest of. Fighting more than 1 person when you are already weaker then all of them individually is next to impossible.

However, doing SOMETHING is usually better than doing nothing. Rapes, some types of murders, kidnapping require a lot of compliance from the victim.


This is really important, and also another one of the disadvantages of Krav Maga. Unless you are truly in a life-or-death situation, I can't imagine that people would have the stomach to gouge someone's eyes or go for their throat (and even then, I wonder how many people could actually carry that out).


dont know whether any of you actually did any kravmaga training or maybe where you are from the trainers do not understand their job but this has no resemblance to what i learned at kravmaga. sure there are some specific situations where testicel grabbing and eye gorging is offered as a possibility (mostly in self defense against rapes) but for the rest its mostly traditional MA techniques made "dirty", muaythai elbows and boxing punches to the nose or throat instead of the side of the head, kick-boxing low kicks and taekwando front kicks on the knees instead of the upper leg, and yes, always finish (or start) any combination with a kick or strike in the crotch, one of the most usefull pieces of advice i have found in a real life confrontation.

[Cliff Paul]

dont know whether any of you actually did any kravmaga training or maybe where you are from the trainers do not understand their job but this has no resemblance to what i learned at kravmaga.

That's fair. My only knowledge of Krav Maga comes second hand from people I know who've studied it, so I guess they probably just emphasized the more shocking aspects of it.

[John Nada]

muaythai elbows and boxing punches to the nose or throat instead of the side of the headI know about the throat, and breaking noses can be fun(for one person). However, the nose usually won't knock them out, and (if they know what they're doing) the chin will be tucked in to make it harder to hit both the chin(a bad spot to get hit at) and throat.

But the side of the head is one of the best(worst for them) places to hit. It's where the temporal lobe is. This is one of the most important parts of the brain, but in a cruel twist of fate, also the most vulnerable. Hitting the chin and jaw fucks up the temporal lobe too. This will knock them(or you) out if done right.

Something that's helpful is studying anatomy. It helps to learn where vulnerably spots are and what they do.

[Sasha]

Sure, and as someone trained far more in kickboxing/muaythai i always instinctively go for the more traditional punches, fact is though that (at least here in amsterdam) every dick looking for a fight at my door has had their fair share of kickboxing classes too, so im glad i am able to block most punches and kickes thrown at me until my co worker or the pigs from across the street show up but sometimes the situation get sticky and you need to down someone fast an then going for some unorthodox techniques is your saving. No doubt that the unexpected shock of someone willing to go there is far more a factor in me getting the upperhand than me flawlessly excecuting some ninja warrior move though. :lol:
The puzzled look of some "come at me bro" fists up fight picker when you do something they, even in their rage and drug/booze filled mind, could never think about doing is priceless. But it should always be proportional, most times dropping their pants is way better than dropping them knocked-out ;)

[Ele'ill]

yoga for defense against myself

[John Nada]

This is really important, and also another one of the disadvantages of Krav Maga. Unless you are truly in a life-or-death situation, I can't imagine that people would have the stomach to gouge someone's eyes or go for their throat (and even then, I wonder how many people could actually carry that out).I'm not trained in Krav Maga, but goughing eye's and going for the throat does save one's ass. Then again, I guess that's not most people.;)
Sure, and as someone trained far more in kickboxing/muaythai i always instinctively go for the more traditional punches, fact is though that (at least here in amsterdam) every dick looking for a fight at my door has had their fair share of kickboxing classes too, so im glad i am able to block most punches and kickes thrown at me until my co worker or the pigs from across the street show up but sometimes the situation get sticky and you need to down someone fast an then going for some unorthodox techniques is your saving. No doubt that the unexpected shock of someone willing to go there is far more a factor in me getting the upperhand than me flawlessly excecuting some ninja warrior move though. :lol:Oh, for sure. If it wasn't clear, the anatomy thing was advise in general. Shit, seeing you as moderator here, I'd hate to see the IRL damage.:lol:

Where I'm from, the pigs showing up means the pain has just began.:lol:
The puzzled look of some "come at me bro" fists up fight picker when you do something they, even in their rage and drug/booze filled mind, could never think about doing is priceless. But it should always be proportional, most times dropping their pants is way better than dropping them knocked-out ;)Depending on who's pant's, that always a good thing. Though a different set of skills not found in fight.:wub:

Obviously one shouldn't send some jackass to the hospital for the lolz, particularly in certain jobs. In fact conflict deescalation or restraint is called for and nearly always best. But in some places and situations, mean's throwing out everything you got.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Professor Snape for defence against the dark arts.

[The Lizard]

Fighting has two phases, standing and ground.

You will need to be well-practiced at both. Boxing and Muay Thai are perfect for standing. Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu are perfect for ground.

You will also need to consider the legality of what you are doing as well. As an example, you will probably not be able to convince a prosecution team and a jury that your Ground & Pound was viable self defence. So, perhaps as effective as that is, I would avoid using that at all costs.

[BIXX]

Fighting has two phases, standing and ground.

You will need to be well-practiced at both. Boxing and Muay Thai are perfect for standing. Wrestling and Jiu Jitsu are perfect for ground.

You will also need to consider the legality of what you are doing as well. As an example, you will probably not be able to convince a prosecution team and a jury that your Ground & Pound was viable self defence. So, perhaps as effective as that is, I would avoid using that at all costs.

Honestly I think if someone tries to hurt me or a loved one I'll do whatever it takes to keep my people safe and worry about legal ramifications later.