A material dialectic analysis of the "problem" of synthetic relationships in japan:

[rylasasin]

7PKwcJVa3dU

Okay, so basically the person in this video talks about japan's "population problem" and (tries) to tie it to dating sims/synthetic relationships. However, I think that explanation is rather ridiculous so I was hoping for a more materialist analysis of the ... er, problem, that the person makes light of in this vid.

And as long as we're at it, I'm also wondering if his concern is even valid to begin with.

[Astarte]

In short, it is yet another effect of the atomization of society capitalism induces.

[rylasasin]

In short, it is yet another effect of the atomization of society capitalism induces.

Could you please elaborate a little more?

[Hit The North]

7PKwcJVa3dU

Okay, so basically the person in this video talks about japan's "population problem" and (tries) to tie it to dating sims/synthetic relationships. However, I think that explanation is rather ridiculous so I was hoping for a more materialist analysis of the ... er, problem, that the person makes light of in this vid.


Dating sims and synthetic relationships would be part of a materialist analysis, but more as symptom than cause. If it was a dialectical analysis then sims, etc. would be seen as a secondary complicating factor, one that acts back on the primary conditions for its existence.


And as long as we're at it, I'm also wondering if his concern is even valid to begin with. All advanced capitalist societies are facing this demographic time-bomb due to negative birth rates so the concerns are real. In part this explains why most capitalist governments encourage immigration.


Could you please elaborate a little more? Marx wrote:


The bourgeoisie cannot exist without constantly revolutionising the instruments of production, and thereby the relations of production, and with them the whole relations of society.... Constant revolutionising of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones. All fixed, fast-frozen relations, with their train of ancient and venerable prejudices and opinions, are swept away, all new-formed ones become antiquated before they can ossify. All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned... This inherent drive of capitalism creates an atomised social structure, where social relations are in a state of flux and produce an atomised consciousness in the heads and habits of individuals. Marx called it alienation.

[Rafiq]

You don't need any sort of substantial Marxist analysis to recognize the problems with this.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

Increasingly I think this isn't just a problem in Japan. I mean, I'm not specifically saying that more and more people are using dating sims or not, but more and more younger people are shutting themselves off from the world, opting not to participate in society.

Sometimes I think "can you really blame them?". It's demoralising to open the front door every day and see a sick and rotten society, and I think that's probably part of it. Obviously there are far more factors than that, another important one I can think of is that increasing numbers of people have very poor interpersonal skills and so on.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

You don't need any sort of substantial Marxist analysis to recognize the problems with this.

How so? Because, to be honest, to me it sounds like the usual hue and cry about how The Nation Is Dying Out and that Something Needs To Be Done since people Are Not Behaving According To Tradition. Are population statistics something that should even concern communists?

[Luís Henrique]

Are population statistics something that should even concern communists?

If the population is too small, doesn't this push the productive forces backward? And isn't a certain development of the productive forces necessary to sustain a communist society?

Luís Henrique

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

If the population is too small, doesn't this push the productive forces backward? And isn't a certain development of the productive forces necessary to sustain a communist society?

Fair enough, but I was specifically talking about birth rates - immigration can replenish the labour force in any of the states that are allegedly dying out (possibly making them more open societies in the process).

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

You don't need any sort of substantial Marxist analysis to recognize the problems with this.

Well, to be fair, most people who have some time on their hands and half a brain will land on the materialist way of thinking.

The problem here is quite simple: neo-liberal age, capitalist suppression of workers' moral and social independence and initiative. Japan is perhaps the most advanced capitalist country in the world. I think it's no coincidence that where the most suicide rates are is also where you will find the most Proles hooked onto 'feel-good' technological devices: Japan, two categories I know Japan scores high, if not highest in.

In my humble opinion, this perfectly demonstrates how it should as well be the goal of Communists to begin thinking about (not to use that loaded term "lifestyle") attempting to build a social movement around the Party, focused on getting workers out of their shitty little apartments and into material reality: building solidarity networks, organizing Party-colored recreational / sports events, building party-owned institutions in working class neighborhoods to host worker events etc.

The only question is: when will the rest of the oppressed class-conscious Proletariat become aware of the need for a united Worker Party movement?

[MarxArchist]

How often are women in relationships with a simulation? I've recently seen two documentaries about men who "date" and have sex with dolls and one about men who try to get their partners to "role play" as robots who will take every order from them, as in, total submission. This could be the motivation for some of this. Some men's desire to completely control the situation, to possess their partner. To possess a woman. It doesn't have to be sexual. In either event I see it as rather unhealthy behavior to say the least, even if it's not coming from the motivation I mentioned. I'm not giving materialist analysis here, just my brief opinion.

[rylasasin]

You don't need any sort of substantial Marxist analysis to recognize the problems with this.

Yes, I know the conclusion he comes to is utterly bogus ("lawl, it's all dating sim's fault!!"), and one doesn't need to be a Marxist to see through that. That's not really what I'm looking for here. What interests me here is "Are the people in japan really acting like he implies in the video (with the women becoming "carnivorous", that is, pickier and choosier and more aggressive; and the men becoming "herbivorous", that is, meeker and more submissive; and are people there genuinely loosing interest in interpersonal sexual relationships? And if this is the case, what is causing it (besides dating sims, which isn't even a cause but more of a symptom, and an example of the way that capitalism displaces its problems and attempts to make a quick buck off of them) and is this even a real problem?"


Increasingly I think this isn't just a problem in Japan. I mean, I'm not specifically saying that more and more people are using dating sims or not, but more and more younger people are shutting themselves off from the world, opting not to participate in society.

Sometimes I think "can you really blame them?". It's demoralising to open the front door every day and see a sick and rotten society, and I think that's probably part of it. Obviously there are far more factors than that, another important one I can think of is that increasing numbers of people have very poor interpersonal skills and so on.

Oh dear, that sounds quite like me unfortunately. from the shutting myself off from the real world part to the poor interpersonal skills part.

[Luís Henrique]

Fair enough, but I was specifically talking about birth rates - immigration can replenish the labour force in any of the states that are allegedly dying out (possibly making them more open societies in the process).

Sure, but in the case of a communist - and consequently worldwide - society, immigration cannot do this. So, shouldn't we be worried that the dwindling population might push us back in to a situation where a worldwide communist society is no longer possible?

Luís Henrique

[Hit The North]

Sure, but in the case of a communist - and consequently worldwide - society, immigration cannot do this. So, shouldn't we be worried that the dwindling population might push us back in to a situation where a worldwide communist society is no longer possible?

Luís Henrique

Presumably communist society won't need an infinitely expanding rate of accumulation in order to guarantee its existence like the capitalist mode of production does, so the further development of the forces of production will be achieved on the basis of other considerations and therefore the material sustainability of the society should no longer necessitate a quantitative growth in labour power (and hence population growth) but a qualitative growth in the technical means of production.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Sure, but in the case of a communist - and consequently worldwide - society, immigration cannot do this. So, shouldn't we be worried that the dwindling population might push us back in to a situation where a worldwide communist society is no longer possible?

I concur with the post above; presumably the communist society will develop the forces of production primarily through the qualitative development of the instruments of production. But even if the communist society was threatened by the declining birthrate, would this be reason enough for society to interfere with the sexual habits of its members? I think it isn't - the notion sounds dangerous, as if people have a duty to procreate and perpetuate society.


In my humble opinion, this perfectly demonstrates how it should as well be the goal of Communists to begin thinking about (not to use that loaded term "lifestyle") attempting to build a social movement around the Party, focused on getting workers out of their shitty little apartments and into material reality: building solidarity networks, organizing Party-colored recreational / sports events, building party-owned institutions in working class neighborhoods to host worker events etc.

That said, even with these structures in place, there will be people who will prefer to stay inside, perhaps even prefer synthetic relationships to real ones. I guess I find them odd, but I don't think they should be judged, and in general, a workers' party will have to learn to work with such people.

By the way, aren't things like strike funds, shelters, safe spaces, workers' libraries and media rooms, perhaps even protective services, of higher priority than cultural institutions?

[Luís Henrique]

I concur with the post above; presumably the communist society will develop the forces of production primarily through the qualitative development of the instruments of production. But even if the communist society was threatened by the declining birthrate, would this be reason enough for society to interfere with the sexual habits of its members? I think it isn't - the notion sounds dangerous, as if people have a duty to procreate and perpetuate society.

Well, I do agree that part of the problem may be solved by the qualitative development of the instruments of production. And with the world population at 6 giga, I don't think this is an urgent issue - the productive forces needed for a worldwide socialist society certainly would be OK with a a half or a third of such population.

But I don't think it would be possible to maintain a worldwide socialist society with one thousand or even one million inhabitants in the planet.

Luís Henrique

[Astarte]

Could you please elaborate a little more?

Capitalism creates every non-ruling class member of society into an exploitable unit. The value of the individual is reduced to the sum of the wealth they produce. Capital thrives on fragmenting and sharpening competition in the exploited classes in the name of profit. The atomization capitalism causes which would result in an increase of "synthetic relationships" would mean more and more people would opt for this type of "companionship" over the economic expenses a real relationship could bring - the cost of dating, which brings with it potentially the cost of transportation, an activity (going to the movies / whatever etc.), and ultimately where it all may lead to - the cost of raising children which is just way too expensive for many people who in turn simply opt to remain isolated.

Also, factor in the superabundance of false needs capitalism creates to pre-occupy the individual and sever them off from the community as a whole and less and less people are out there mingling and meeting each other, in turn continually losing confidence in themselves as a healthy and or worthy mate which reduces their choice to "syntheticism", I suppose.

[CatsAttack]

The only 'demographic' problem socialists should be worried about, is the mass pauperization of working people. How many Japanese people there are in relation to other ethnicities is of no concern.

[Sidagma]

By the way, aren't things like strike funds, shelters, safe spaces, workers' libraries and media rooms, perhaps even protective services, of higher priority than cultural institutions?

Hmmmmmmmm I would say, not necessarily. I know that for me, one of the worst things about being homeless was the utter disenfranchisement from any sort of community. I never really utilized things like shelters or libraries, for many reasons, but I sure as hell have utilized community institutions, which in any case are NOT distinct from safe spaces, media rooms, etc.

The societal atomization happening here creates a hell of a lot of mental illness, etc. I wouldn't be a communist if I thought that that meant I had to remain a unit for production; the single most important thing you can do for any person is to give them a chance to learn and grow as an individual and a part of a community.

Not to say that there isn't work to be done, or that shelter and the like are unimportant concerns. But when it comes to reaching a diverse population that will stay involved in the long term, cultural institutions are, IMHO, extremely important.