Feminism

[Miles Davis]

Hello, I've just joined.

I wonder if there are any feminists here. If there are, I'd like to have a discussion about feminism. I'm not a feminist.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Hello, I've just joined.

I wonder if there are any feminists here.

Every communist is also a feminist in the sense that they support the liberation of women.


If there are, I'd like to have a discussion about feminism. I'm not a feminist.

Why?

[Miles Davis]

Will women always need liberation, or is the job nearly done?

[Per Levy]

Hello, I've just joined.

I wonder if there are any feminists here. If there are, I'd like to have a discussion about feminism. I'm not a feminist.

trollalert, firstpost threads about kronstadt or stalin/trotsky are probally to oldschool nowadays so lets start with feminism.

[Bostana]

Will women always need liberation, or is the job nearly done?

Oy this guy,

Yes yes we know. Feminists demand too much rights, and the are white christian men are under attack. They are loosing their rights to women etc etc

Unfortunately my friend, there is still a gender pay gap, female progress is slowed down by "Traditionalists" (Or whatever they want to call themselves). So yes there is still a need for feminist liberation

[Ele'ill]

Will women always need liberation, or is the job nearly done?

what do you mean

[Zaza]

Every communist is also a feminist in the sense that they support the liberation of women.



Why?

he surely means those feminists which you see on pictures like on Reddit or 4chan.

[Miles Davis]

Oy this guy,

Yes yes we know. Feminists demand too much rights, and the are white christian men are under attack. They are loosing their rights to women etc etc

Unfortunately my friend, there is still a gender pay gap, female progress is slowed down by "Traditionalists" (Or whatever they want to call themselves). So yes there is still a need for feminist liberation

I don't understand why people still talk about there being a pay gap. Can you explain? I've never known a single woman who feels that she gets shortchanged for the work that she does. Are you talking about certain types of jobs in which women get paid less?

[Per Levy]

what do you mean

nothing, he starts a thread about discussing feminism and has posted nothing worthy of discussion and i doubt that anything beyond "feminism is bad" will come. i stay with my trollalert.

[Bostana]

I don't understand why people still talk about there being a pay gap. Can you explain?
Because there is still a pay gap. I think America's is getting a larger and larger difference over the years. But I can't remember. Anyways, the fact that there is still a pay gap is morally and ethically wrong

I've never known a single woman who feels that she gets shortchanged for the work that she does.

I have. Some I know personally, they're many feminist groups who still recognized that there is still a pay gap in America and across the world

[WelcomeToTheParty]

I've never known a single woman who feels that she gets shortchanged for the work that she does. Are you talking about certain types of jobs in which women get paid less?

Anecdotal evidence #1! Academically rigorous studies (http://ec.europa.eu/justice/gender-equality/files/documents/130530_annual_report_en.pdf) are just the tools of man hating misandrists.

[helot]

I don't understand why people still talk about there being a pay gap. Can you explain? I've never known a single woman who feels that she gets shortchanged for the work that she does. Are you talking about certain types of jobs in which women get paid less?


It's got nothing to do with whether a woman feels shortchanged for the work they do.

In the UK, using the IT & Telecoms industry as an example full-time male IT & telecoms professionals earn 13% more than their female equivalents. Surprisingly this pay gap is less than within the workforce as a whole.

[Miles Davis]

It's got nothing to do with whether a woman feels shortchanged for the work they do.

In the UK, using the IT & Telecoms industry as an example full-time male IT & telecoms professionals earn 13% more than their female equivalents. Surprisingly this pay gap is less than within the workforce as a whole.

I meant if a woman feels that she is getting underpaid for what she does.

Let's be specific. For jobs where there is an advertised hourly rate, I find it hard to believe that any women would get paid less than that hourly rate. First of all, she would see it in her payslip. Secondly, quite often people talk about how much they get paid, and sometimes they look at each others' payslips. If there were any problem, it would be immediately seen. The same would apply to jobs where there's an advertised annual salary. Once she sees her payslips, it would be obvious if something was wrong. Same for jobs where you clock in and clock out, or sign in and sign out. As for self employed jobs, well I doubt there's any problem there for obvious reasons, i.e. the person who is self employed charges for their services, and gets paid for what they do.

That's why I'm asking, in what types of jobs do women get paid less than what they're supposed to get for what they do?

[Miles Davis]

Anecdotal evidence #1! Academically rigorous studies are just the tools of man hating misandrists.

If there was really a significant issue with women getting paid less than men for the same job, anecdotal evidence of that would be seen everywhere. You wouldn't have to grab statistics from here and there to try to prove it because it would be common knowledge.

[DDR]

If there was really a significant issue with women getting paid less than men for the same job, anecdotal evidence of that would be seen everywhere. You wouldn't have to grab statistics from here and there to try to prove it because it would be common knowledge.

It is common knowledge

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_pay_gap

[Miles Davis]

It is common knowledge

I'm not talking about it having a wiki page, I mean common knowledge in the sense that it is something that is confirmed by many people that you might come across. I have never heard a conversation in my life where a woman mentions getting paid less than what she is supposed to get for the job that she does. I have worked in many different types of job and it has never come up, not once.

[Le Socialiste]

If there was really a significant issue with women getting paid less than men for the same job, anecdotal evidence of that would be seen everywhere. You wouldn't have to grab statistics from here and there to try to prove it because it would be common knowledge.

But it is common knowledge. Everyone knows women earn less than men. In fact, on average a full-time woman earns just 77 cents to every dollar a man makes. Older statistics show that women earned 20% less than men between 1983 and 2000, and nearly 97% of full-time working women were in jobs that typically paid men more as of late 2011. It's not hidden away in statistics, it's out there. Just look at how it impacts single mothers: in 2010, 11% of U.S. children in single-mother families - and 26% of single mothers - lacked healthcare coverage, and the majority of the latter work more hours yet have higher poverty rates. If you can't recognize that, this is going to become a much different conversation, like whether you belong on this site at all.

[Bostana]

If there was really a significant issue with women getting paid less than men for the same job, anecdotal evidence of that would be seen everywhere. You wouldn't have to grab statistics from here and there to try to prove it because it would be common knowledge.

That is what common knowledge is based off of...statistics and facts.

And the pay gap is common knowledge...

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

That is what common knowledge is based off of...statistics and facts.

And the pay gap is common knowledge...

Well sure there's all that, but can you spin it in such a way as to fit my preconceived notion about feminazis?

thanks

[The Feral Underclass]

I'm not a feminist.

Did she dump you and start going out with your best friend whose penis is bigger than yours?

[Aurora]

Common instances of women systemically being treated dreadfully are pretty well known, rape and the culture that rape is ok, women as object not subject, domestic violence, state control of womens bodies, unrewarded and unappreciated domestic labour, dependence on men within the home, pay gap, sexual harassment, street harassment, being talked down to, opinions not valued etc etc
But i was genuinely surprised the other day to discover that knowledge of the cell is affected by sexism, seriously, most of our knowledge about the cell focuses on the nucleus which comes from the male gamete, the cytoplasm comes from the female gamete and hence has much less research on it.
It shouldn't really have surprised me tbh, anyone female or considered feminine has less value in our society.

So ya, that's why we need feminism and communism because there's a lot of sick shit around and it's long time that changed.

[helot]

But i was genuinely surprised the other day to discover that knowledge of the cell is affected by sexism, seriously, most of our knowledge about the cell focuses on the nucleus which comes from the male gamete, the cytoplasm comes from the female gamete and hence has much less research on it.

I dont understand this at all. Im no biologist but i was under the impression that ova do possess nuclei.

[Decolonize The Left]

I'm not talking about it having a wiki page, I mean common knowledge in the sense that it is something that is confirmed by many people that you might come across. I have never heard a conversation in my life where a woman mentions getting paid less than what she is supposed to get for the job that she does. I have worked in many different types of job and it has never come up, not once.

You are a very poor troll my friend. I shall now answer all of your posts with dinosaur pictures.

http://www.hdwallpapersplus.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/4513995_orig.jpg

[Aurora]

I dont understand this at all. Im no biologist but i was under the impression that ova do possess nuclei.
They do, it's not that the ova don't contain nuclei it's that all cells in you are made up of information from both sperm and egg this information if it comes from the sperm is considered active while the information from the egg is considered passive.
I'm no biologist either i just came across it here in passing so it may be that my understanding is incorrect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cytoplasm#Controversy_and_research sources are two books called Has feminism changed science? and Science and Technology in a Multicultural World.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Will women always need liberation, or is the job nearly done?

The liberation of women is impossible in the framework of capitalism, which necessitates the continuation of the family unit as a source of unpaid domestic labour. Concessions can and should be won, and defended against all attempts to subvert them, but patriarchy as the system of violence against women can only be completely smashed when the entire bourgeois society has been smashed.

The job is not nearly done.


I don't understand why people still talk about there being a pay gap. Can you explain? I've never known a single woman who feels that she gets shortchanged for the work that she does.

And yet, demonstrably, there exists a significant difference between the remuneration men and women receive for an equal expenditure of labour power. And of course, domestic labour, which is disproportionately preformed by women, is usually not remunerated at all. If certain women (and men) do not perceive this objective disparity, this simply underlines the need for women's liberation.


But i was genuinely surprised the other day to discover that knowledge of the cell is affected by sexism, seriously, most of our knowledge about the cell focuses on the nucleus which comes from the male gamete, the cytoplasm comes from the female gamete and hence has much less research on it.
It shouldn't really have surprised me tbh, anyone female or considered feminine has less value in our society.

Genetic material comes from both the female and the male gamete, though. I think the cytoplasm has been neglected as a factor in inheritance, not due to sexism, but due to rigid Mendelian assumptions. One ought to be careful here; the practice of science is, of course, not free from sexism, but these matters should not be analysed impressionistically.

[Zaza]

Did she dump you and start going out with your best friend whose penis is bigger than yours?

Todays feminism is all about american lesbians hating males. They do not want equal rights.
Call them feminazis if you like to,since some feminists i talked to were totally against those. I couldn't care less.


But a nice answer instead of asking why he feels like he is no feminist.

[Quail]

Todays feminism is all about american lesbians hating males. They do not want equal rights.
Call them feminazis if you like to,since some feminists i talked to were totally against those. I couldn't care less.


But a nice answer instead of asking why he feels like he is no feminist.

Feminism isn't about being a man-hating lesbian, it's about women's liberation. Now, since it's impossible to have a free, equal society (i.e. communism) without women also being free and equal, it stands to reason that any socialist should also consider themselves a feminist. A movement where women can't participate as equals has no chance of creating a society where women can participate as equals.

[Zaza]

Feminism isn't about being a man-hating lesbian, it's about women's liberation. Now, since it's impossible to have a free, equal society (i.e. communism) without women also being free and equal, it stands to reason that any socialist should also consider themselves a feminist. A movement where women can't participate as equals has no chance of creating a society where women can participate as equals.

Maybe that's why I said "Todays feminism" right at the start.

[Nevsky]

Why are you all so aggressive? Maybe the guy just lives in a civilized country where women are in a better position? He only said he isn't a feminist, that doesn't mean he believes women should wear burkas...

[Zaza]

Why are you all so aggressive? Maybe the guy just lives in a civilized country where women are in a better position? He only said he isn't a feminist, that doesn't mean he believes women should wear burkas...

According to some pages I visited it's common here.
Also, wanting a woman to wear burkas doesn't make you an anti-feminist.
Hating them makes you one.

[Quail]

Maybe that's why I said "Todays feminism" right at the start.
Is this even true though, or are you just attacking a common stereotype of feminists? I read a few feminist blogs and I haven't come across a single article written by a lesbian who is just expressing her hatred of men. Most articles are about actual issues that women face.


Why are you all so aggressive? Maybe the guy just lives in a civilized country where women are in a better position? He only said he isn't a feminist, that doesn't mean he believes women should wear burkas...
I don't know what you mean by "civilised" but I live in the UK and still have to put up with street harassment and casual sexism, and there is still an awful culture of victim-blaming when women are sexually assaulted, unequal pay, women doing more of the undervalued domestic work, etc. I don't think there is a country in the world where feminism isn't necessary to fight against the inequalities that still exist.

[Zaza]

It is true. For me, atleast.
I also mentioned before that I had some chats with feminists who are against those, therefore I don't stereotype.

[Quail]

It is true. For me, atleast.
I also mentioned before that I had some chats with feminists who are against those, therefore I don't stereotype.

Could you provide a website that is representative of "today's feminism"?

[Zaza]

Could you provide a website that is representative of "today's feminism"?

No, I can not. It was mostly from conversations I had, stuff I saw on other pages and things like that.

But let me search for some pictures I have about pseudo Feminists claiming that hate of men is legit.

[Zaza]

Only found two you would take serious.
http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/datscreenshot5q0mnpkvfx.png
http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/datdattg8mljvp6d.png

Other stuff I have is about "feminists" which hate their sons, ***** about sexism in games and even one of a woman telling other mothers to stop breastfeeding their children.
Sounds ridiculous, but I was once in an argument with a pseudo feminist which claimed there was no sexism against men, but then suddenly said it is legit.
Also always nice to hear I can't understand feminism because of that little thing called penis down there.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

There exists, of course, bourgeois, idealistic "feminism", and carried to its, er, logical conclusion, this idealistic "feminism" leads to stupid and oppressive policies directed at transwomen and against LGBT people in general. There is also lesbian separatism, which is another thing entirely; I find it tragic rather than hateful and ridiculous, since its very existence demonstrates the gap between men and women.

But these tendencies are not the entirety of feminism; in fact, they are probably not feminist at all.


Why are you all so aggressive? Maybe the guy just lives in a civilized country where women are in a better position? He only said he isn't a feminist, that doesn't mean he believes women should wear burkas...

Unfortunately, the patriarchal imposition of burqas is not the only problem facing women today; in "civilised" America, for example, the media praised and sympathised with convicted rapists while harassing the victim, in "civilised" Ireland a woman died because the bourgeois state forced her to not abort, and so on, and so on.

[Nevsky]

Unfortunately, the patriarchal imposition of burqas is not the only problem facing women today; in "civilised" America, for example, the media praised and sympathised with convicted rapists while harassing the victim, in "civilised" Ireland a woman died because the bourgeois state forced her to not abort, and so on, and so on.

America is the last country on earth that I'd call civilized, don't worry. What I meant were the nordic countries which pay a lot of attention to gender equality, I think in Denmark and Norway it is unlawful for companies to employ a too low quota of women. I know that patriarchal culture is still quite the problem all around the globe, I live in southern Italy after all...

[#FF0000]

Only found two you would take serious.
http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/datscreenshot5q0mnpkvfx.png
http://img5.fotos-hochladen.net/uploads/datdattg8mljvp6d.png

Other stuff I have is about "feminists" which hate their sons, ***** about sexism in games and even one of a woman telling other mothers to stop breastfeeding their children.
Sounds ridiculous, but I was once in an argument with a pseudo feminist which claimed there was no sexism against men, but then suddenly said it is legit.
Also always nice to hear I can't understand feminism because of that little thing called penis down there.

"I saw a person who called themselves a feminist on the internet say a mean thing once so feminism bad. no i haven't read books why do you ask"

[Sam_b]

He only said he isn't a feminist

If you don't care about women's liberation then you're not a socialist.


Also always nice to hear I can't understand feminism because of that little thing called penis down there.

Being a bigot doesn't help either.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

America is the last country on earth that I'd call civilized, don't worry. What I meant were the nordic countries which pay a lot of attention to gender equality, I think in Denmark and Norway it is unlawful for companies to employ a too low quota of women. I know that patriarchal culture is still quite the problem all around the globe, I live in southern Italy after all...

Even in the Nordic countries, there is official and systematic private discrimination of women, from restrictions on abortion to forced prostitution etc. Furthermore, domestic labour, preformed predominantly by women, is still not properly remunerated, and in fact, can't be, since that would destroy the family unit, crucial to the reproduction of capitalist relations.

Concerning the hatred some women feel toward men, perhaps that is a personality flaw. Perhaps. And it often leads to stupid, unproductive tactics. But surely we can not equate this hatred, conditioned by the systematic violence and exploitation of women, with the hatred a lot of men feel toward women? Just as we do not equate the hatred of whites held by some black people in the United States with the hatred a lot of whites feel for black people.

[Tenka]

"I saw a person who called themselves a feminist on the internet say a mean thing once so feminism bad. no i haven't read books why do you ask"

I haven't read any Feminist books but I've never had this senseless distaste for Feminism that seems quite trendy nowadays, not even before I was any kind of Leftist or Socialist.

P.S. I expect the person to whom you reply will receive a hasty banishment or restriction, not just for Sexism, but also for Kemalism.

[Nevsky]

If you don't care about women's liberation then you're not a socialist.

So if you say you're not a feminist you automatically are against women's liberation? Some "feminists" are egomaniacal bourgeois-careerists, real feminists are revolutonary socialists. What if the op had the former category in mind?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

So if you say you're not a feminist you automatically are against women's liberation? Some "feminists" are egomaniacal bourgeois-careerists, real feminists are revolutonary socialists. What if the op had the former category in mind?

If they were referring exclusively to radical bourgeois feminism, why would they try to deny a quantifiable, established phenomenon like the pay gap, though?

[Sam_b]

Some "feminists" are egomaniacal bourgeois-careerists,

As are some "socialists". This isn't a point at all.


but I've never had this senseless distaste for Feminism that seems quite trendy nowadays

It's not even 'trendy', it's male dinosaurs of the left trying to explain away their reluctance to either learn or admit to their own prejudices.

[bcbm]

Also always nice to hear I can't understand feminism because of that little thing called penis down there.

i think the problem is between your ears, not your legs

[Rafiq]

You cannot be a Communist without being a feminist in at least a sense.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Hermes]

I might have read it entirely wrong, but the first link Zaza posted seems to not reinforce his point. The first sentence comes off as sarcasm, which seems to be reinforced afterwards by: "Of course women don't hate men". Again, I could have read it entirely wrong.

The second answer kind of harkens back to the discussion this board had earlier: http://www.revleft.com/vb/man-rape-supporter-t180148/index.html

[Decolonize The Left]

So if you say you're not a feminist you automatically are against women's liberation? Some "feminists" are egomaniacal bourgeois-careerists, real feminists are revolutonary socialists. What if the op had the former category in mind?

Simply put: women make up more than fifty percent of the human population. They also make up the majority of the working class. Sexism and patriarchy exist and are cultural, social, and structural systems of oppression - they affect everyone on this planet, males included.

As a leftist you supposedly care primarily about the conditions of the working class, namely, making those conditions better for all of us in a collective effort to overthrow the capitalist class and regain the means of production. You cannot do this in any sense without at the same time supporting the cultural, social, and structural liberation of many sub-groups within this large and amorphous whole known as the 'working-class.'

Sexism, racism, ageism, homophobia, etc... all these issues divide and separate the working class, make us disjointed and weak. They are not invented in order to do this - they are real. Women live our sexism everyday just like racial minorities live out racism.

You cannot escape or deny their realities and to spit in the face of their claims while at the same time jacking yourself off as a leftist is naive and sad. It makes me look bad and I don't even know you. So pay attention when women say shit is fucked up - it is. You probably pay attention when a black man says shit is fucked up - you don't tell him he's a crazy minority of minorities and that racism is totes last century - do you?

All leftists are feminists whether or not they adopt the label. Just like all leftists are anti-racists whether or not they adopt that label. You can't be a leftists and discriminate against members of your class based on sex, race, whatever. Nor can you be a leftist and passively support the structures which discriminate on these grounds.

Labels serve specific purposes and are very useful but you don't have to have a laundry-list of your labels in your wallet just to call yourself a leftist. You do, however, have to acknowledge that the social, cultural, and structural systems of oppression exist above and beyond the root of material capitalist oppression and need to be addressed in their own right and fought on their own terms.

tl;dr:
All leftists are feminists/anti-racists/whatever whether or not they personally identify with that label. You can be a leftist and just be a leftist but you need to be aware of the many systems of oppression which affect members of your class based on things like gender, race, etc.. instead of just focusing on the material relationship of the class to the means of production.

[Rafiq]

Sexual revolution will inevitably follow any sort of revolution in social relations. Therefore, it should be the immediate task for any sort of future proletarian movement to take up and politicize feminism as a core component, a weapon of class struggle. The existing sexual relations serve the existing social relations, they exist for no other reason. Their existence sustains the cultural hegemony of the bourgeois class, a blow to the family structure is therefore a blow to the dominance of the bourgeois class. It is for this reason that a communist must be a feminist, among other things (against racism, etc.).

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I go away for awhile, and come back to find we're still having threads like this? Oy vey.

[Luís Henrique]

I don't understand why people still talk about there being a pay gap.

Perhaps because there is a pay gap, ie, women get paid less for the same job?


Can you explain? I've never known a single woman who feels that she gets shortchanged for the work that she does. Are you talking about certain types of jobs in which women get paid less?

1. Women get paid less for doing the same job as men.
2. Women are overrepresented in most jobs that don't pay well, and underrepresented in all jobs that have a better pay.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

If there was really a significant issue with women getting paid less than men for the same job, anecdotal evidence of that would be seen everywhere. You wouldn't have to grab statistics from here and there to try to prove it because it would be common knowledge.

First time I hear the argument, "statistics are not enough for me, I need anecdotal evidence".

Epic.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

I'm not talking about it having a wiki page, I mean common knowledge in the sense that it is something that is confirmed by many people that you might come across. I have never heard a conversation in my life where a woman mentions getting paid less than what she is supposed to get for the job that she does. I have worked in many different types of job and it has never come up, not once.

Try. Talking. To. More. Women.

I guess you also never worked in HR departments.

Luís Henrique

[Red Flag Waver]

Todays feminism is all about american lesbians hating males. They do not want equal rights.
Call them feminazis if you like to,since some feminists i talked to were totally against those. I couldn't care less.
Nice homophobia, jackass. Why do morons think that connecting feminism to lesbians is some kind of denigration?

[Jimmie Higgins]

The pay gap is just the tip of the iceburg, really. It's important - or should be important to working class revolutionaries - because it's an obvious intersection between worker's power and the oppression of women. A pretty simple way to put it in class terms would be to say, "would the lives of workers be imporoved if 51% of the working class won a 20% raise?". But IMO this is also a crude and sort of reductionist way to look at the connections between women's oppression and class oppression. But still to think that anyone would think that the "pay gap" isn't a big deal... it's pretty bizzare.

On a side note, one of the most obnoxious propagandistic anti-women/anti-worker things I've noticed is that when female dominated occupations go on strike, the media and bosses always say, "these teachers don't care about children, they just want money... these nurses don't care about sick people, they just care about money". On the other hand you usually don't hear propaganda that says, "these construction workers don't care about the generic office building they are working on". Also the irony is that most female nurses and teachers do that thankless underpaid worker BECAUSE they think it's something honerable... and of course NO ONE says, "by deneying teachers/nurses/support staff higher wages, this HMO, the city council don't care about education/health but just profits"... and that's true!

[Luís Henrique]

On a side note, one of the most obnoxious propagandistic anti-women/anti-worker things I've noticed is that when female dominated occupations go on strike, the media and bosses always say, "these teachers don't care about children, they just want money... these nurses don't care about sick people, they just care about money". On the other hand you usually don't hear propaganda that says, "these construction workers don't care about the generic office building they are working on". Also the irony is that most female nurses and teachers do that thankless underpaid worker BECAUSE they think it's something honerable... and of course NO ONE says, "by deneying teachers/nurses/support staff higher wages, this HMO, the city council don't care about education/health but just profits"... and that's true!

I am not absolutely sure that this "they don't care" is really related to the predominant sex among a group of workers. Yesterday in Brasília, bus drivers (who are overwhelmingly male in Brazil) closed the central bus station, leaving a significant part of the population without transport, and certainly the discourse about how they are egotistical and don't respect passengers was present in the media, and was even voiced by other workers, who were "victims" of the strike. So perhaps it has more to do with the fact that some professionals deal more directly with the final consumer than others (yes, perhaps there is a significant overlap between this and gender; after all, "women are caretakers" according to the predominant mythology).


Disclaimer: this doesn't mean that I endorse the bus drivers strike of yesterday; I don't know too much about the movement, and there is rumour that it is the result of a collusion between drivers and bus companies.

Luís Henrique

[Jimmie Higgins]

^Good point and my comment was mostly annecdotal anyway.

Employers will obviously throw any reasoning out there to intimidate workers and drive a wedge between the striking workers and workers and the community in general. But in these cases I do really feel that it's a sexist line specifically that's being used: the implication being that male labor is more valuable, female labor is "optional" and should really be about supporting and caring for society. The old home-maker sexism re-applied to a world where women are now a huge part of the labor force: care for childre, nuture the sick, make sure that the men can do their jobs.

[NewLeft]

there is a brand of feminism that can be discarded tho: trans exclusionary

white imperialist 'feminists' are annoying too

to quote feminist kanye: 'white feminism' does not care about black women

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

Every time I see someone call feminists "man hating dykes" or somesuch i feel a little spark in my heart flare because i know something's being done right. Why are you annoyed? Because you're threatened and you aren't used to it.

[MarxArchist]

what do you mean

Usually when I have these discussions in non socialist friendly atmospheres Sweden is thrown around as what happens to feminism after women reach a certain amount of equality. Things like banning men from peeing standing up, calling children in schools "hens" and such (as in no male, no female). Some feminists want a sort of androgynous population, not to make light of theory but like that "Pat" character from Saturday night live. "Is it a man? Is it a woman?". You know, Mary Daily, Janice Raymond, Sheila Jeffreys etc. Shiny happy people those are I tell ya.


VwT1kp0C3Ss

Mary Daily

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRHKyRqx7qG2OKFDhRtgDSlZDYlAZaO9 I0wOgTVCp__Rdi_fdzTSQ

Janice Raymond
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_kC5MT2r5U8s/TJaVD_N79MI/AAAAAAAAQw4/ngPs064GcK0/s1600/Dr.+Janice+Raymond.gif

Sheila Jeffreys
http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2012/5/29/1338302932194/Sheila-Joy-Jeffreys.jpg

This is why they HATE trans women so much. Sometimes feminist theory does go too far. This isn't to say we shouldn't question traditional gender roles my point is first and foremost women's material independence needs to be addressed. As in, women need the complete freedom to survive without depending on a man. From that many freedoms follow. Once this need is met, to large extent (as is the case in Sweden), other issues become the focus. Taken to the logical conclusion, as some radical feminists do with gender roles/anti trans positions, we run into some shifty things that may not be in everyone's best interests.

[MarxArchist]

Every time I see someone call feminists "man hating dykes" or somesuch i feel a little spark in my heart flare because i know something's being done right. Why are you annoyed? Because you're threatened and you aren't used to it.

There are indeed feminists who are man hating lesbians. Sad thing, they get most of the attention because they have the most controversial theories. I too pay a disproportionate ammount of attention to them but it's because I criticize their brand of feminism, as in, have the ability to separate their theory from the overall body of feminist theory. I think they should be singled out and criticized while upholding the need for feminism in general.

[MarxArchist]

It's not even 'trendy', it's male dinosaurs of the left trying to explain away their reluctance to either learn or admit to their own prejudices.

No. It's people on the socialist left, men and women, who have read the authors in question and oppose their brand of feminism. Speaking of myself here obviously. I do think men in general do have a reaction to feminism in general as you described though.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I'd like to elucidate that I have never met a self-described feminist who hates men. Plenty despise the patriarchy, but frankly ALL of us do. The patriarchal model assigns men rigid, oppressive roles too - roles that tend to be cushier than those of most women, but a gilded cage is a cage nontheless.

if there are actually "man hating" feminists out there, I generically condemn them, but they must be such a small minority that they really aren't worth bothering with in terms of argument. We shouldn't be really interested in anyone who promotes hatred except to say that we simply oppose prejudice.

In regards to feminism, I take a similar stance to the one I have on trade unionism. Although I believe that the lot of all of us will be exponentailly better when we achieve socialism/communism, I think that for the time being we should struggle and make ourselves known just as we promote awareness of class and marxism amongst our contemporaries.

[Red Flag Waver]

There are indeed feminists who are man hating lesbians.
Be that as it may, many people seem to think that feminism is more worthy of derision when they can tack on "lesbians" to the already vitriolic "man haters," as if women would have to be crazy to hate men and doubly irrational to not want to fuck them. I'm sure it's not intentional, but many of your posts give off a similar vibe.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I'd like to elucidate that I have never met a self-described feminist who hates men.
Most radems do and, coupled with their belief in biological determinism, forms the root of their attacks on trans women. To them, we're just mutilated men.

[#FF0000]

Most radems do and, coupled with their belief in biological determinism, forms the root of their attacks on trans women. To them, we're just mutilated men.

That's not all radfems though. Hella radfems, sure, but then there were/are people like Dworkin who didn't/don't hate on transgender people at all.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

That's not all radfems though.
That's why I said most, because I know some who aren't. But, in general, most of the negative stereotypes of feminists do tend to be true, or partly true, of radfems.

[#FF0000]

I'm dumb and just didn't see the "most" there, for some reason.