Pensions and Retirement

[KarlLeft]

Where do the concepts of pension and retirement fit in a stateless and classless society? Would the concept of retirement even be recognized in such a society? Currently, the idea is that work is so onerous that retirement is seen as a reward for simply having survived decades of it. If, in a true communisty society, work is more fulfilling and satisfying no one would want to retire. Is the concept of retirement something that exists only in capitalism?

[ZenTaoist]

The nature of work would be completely different in a communist society. Work would be something done for enjoyment rather than a means for survival. Needs will be met regardless, so there wouldn't really be a point to having a retirement plan or pension. Also, remember, the concept of pensions assumes there's still money, which there will not be.

[KarlLeft]

The concept of retirement is a capitalist carrot and stick tactic designed to appeal to those with bourgeois sensibilities.

Actually, retirement is really a waste of good labor power since almost anyone, regardless of age, is capable of doing some socially valuable work. Just one more way the capitalist system wastes resources.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

The concept of retirement is a capitalist carrot and stick tactic designed to appeal to those with bourgeois sensibilities.
I think it appeals to anyone who's spent their life as a wage slave, but for most workers the idea of a comfortable retirement is only a dream.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

This is basically where the 'from each according to their ability' comes into play. If people are getting older and can no longer effectively perform the tasks they used to when they were younger then what's the point? But that doesn't mean they can't get involved in the community in some other way if they want to. Work would be a very different concept.

[LifeIs2Short]

Even in the modern world when old people retire from wage slavery, they still often continue doing socially valuable labour like taking care of grandchildren or what not. This labour should be just as appreciated as productive labour. And for the record calling retirement in capitalism a ''waste of resources'' is fucking disgusting and only a machine could truly think that way, especially since proper retirement benefits for all workers is something that has been bitterly fought for for decades, and is now under the assault of neoliberalism. Society shouldnt exist for production, it should exist for human beings who can live how they want to.

[Zukunftsmusik]

The concept of retirement is a capitalist carrot and stick tactic designed to appeal to those with bourgeois sensibilities.

Actually, retirement is really a waste of good labor power since almost anyone, regardless of age, is capable of doing some socially valuable work. Just one more way the capitalist system wastes resources.

"Stupid capitalism with its carrot and stick tactic, I want socialism so we can use just a stick!"

Serioulsy, "waste of good labour power"? You talk like people coming from this social class that I can't remember the name of, what was it again... help me out here...

You are aware that pensions is something the worker's movement fought through, right? And that this right is eroding as we speak? So much for you capitalists and their carrots...

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I think what KarlLeft meant was that retirement in a capitalist system is presented as sort of a little reward for spending most of your life laboring away - and after that, you're usually regarded as pretty useless and really pretty incapable of anything useless. That's a shitty way to treat people.

I know quite a lot of retired people who wouldn't want to go back to the kind of work they were doing before they retired but still want to contribute to society. Nobody likes feeling useless.

Since people will work more or less on their own terms when we finally get around to throwing that whole revolution thing, theactual concept of retirement won't make sense. People will work, so to speak, for as long as they want to. It's down to the individual, I suppose. Some people continue to be active well into their 90's and beyond, some people would prefer to live out their later years in relaxation.

For example, my dad's dad, although he loved his job as a bus driver, was very happy to retire at 60 and spend his time tending to his garden. My mum's great-grandma kept sewing, cooking and midwifeing for people in her village for pretty much her entire life, and she lived until just short of her 98th birthday.

[Jimmie Higgins]

The concept of retirement is a capitalist carrot and stick tactic designed to appeal to those with bourgeois sensibilities.

Actually, retirement is really a waste of good labor power since almost anyone, regardless of age, is capable of doing some socially valuable work. Just one more way the capitalist system wastes resources.Well I think worker had to actually fight to be able to "retire" in capitalism rather than to just be thrown into poverty when they were no longer able to keep up with the demands of "surplus labor extraction" i.e. capitalist work. In the US where workers don't have much power, we work longer than in a lot of similar countries.

If we had a society with communist relations then I think "obligatory work" might exist to a certain limited extent (more like community "chores" maybe - is an amish barn-raising "work" in the sense we know it? Everyone who is able needs to chip-in and they know in return the community will provide them with a house or barn when they need it too... I don't actually know much about the Amish, so I apologize if my analogy doesn't actually work). At any rate, required tasks would be minimized and so there would probably not be "retirement" in a real sense as work itself would be more causal and any specialization (something maybe like a "career") would be self-directed by interests.

Did pre-capitalist people "retire"? No, they worked while they were able for the most part, and then usually their family or community helped provide for them... maybe they used their lifetime of skills to then teach others. Of course this was generally in times when there wasn't much surplus, so there was generally a pretty heavy work-burden. But if there is abundance then there is really no need for intense work for all those who are able as long as they are able.