Syria's People's Committees

[Manar]

Since some naive members of this forum harbor illusions about the fictitious pro-opposition Syrian "Local Coordination Committees" invented by the massive opposition propaganda machine, so I thought this article might be of interest. It talks of the actual grassroots committees of Syrian workers, which are without exception, pro-government. Their main goal is to protect Syrian communities from Free Salafi Army cannibal thugs.


Popular Committees, neighborhood defense organizations mobilized to protect pro-government or politically neutral neighborhoods in Syria’s most restive regions, are evolving into locally cohesive divisions of a “National Defense Army.” They have the capacity to present a great challenge to the future military efforts of the armed opposition. [Note: This article was originally published by The (http://www.jamestown.org/programs/gta/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=40819&cHash=3bd204af671ce03738a33ea1d31c3404)Jamestown Foundation (http://www.jamestown.org/programs/gta/single/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=40819&cHash=3bd204af671ce03738a33ea1d31c3404).]

As the Syrian Civil War enters its second year, the lijaan sha’abiya (“Popular Committees”), local defense forces supported by the Syrian military, are taking on an increasingly important role in the country’s conflict. The Popular Committees (sometimes referred to as “Peoples’ Committees”), are reported to have been organized initially as neighborhood defense organizations (http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/11740) to protect pro-government or politically neutral neighborhoods that were not actively policed by the Syrian military.


Some of the Popular Committees are accused of perpetrating communal violence, with or without the support of the Syrian military. The United Nations Commission of Inquiry on Syria (http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=44332#.UYdbQMqwDh6)asserts that some Popular Committees have committed kidnappings, arbitrary arrests and killings of Syrian opposition members.


Although accused by the Syrian opposition of serving the same function as the Shabiha (“Ghosts”) paramilitary units that have earned a notorious reputation for committing massacres against Syrian opposition members, the Popular Committees, unlike the Shabiha, are not generally deployed in battle outside their area of residence. They are generally armed with light weapons and are organized on the village and city district level. Popular Committee forces man checkpoints, conduct door-to-door raids and occasionally provide support for the Syrian military (http://www.assafir.com/MulhakArticle.aspx?EditionId=2285&MulhakArticleId=764973&MulhakId=4680) against the armed Syrian opposition in divided, heavily-contested areas of the country by holding areas cleared of armed opposition members. A Hezbollah media outlet (http://www.almanar.com.lb/english/adetails.php?eid=81769&cid=23&fromval=1)reports that some Popular Committee forces are being trained in guerilla irregular warfare, surveillance, infiltration, and counterintelligence. These military disciplines are widely understood to be specialties of Hezbollah’s armed wing.

Minorities and the Popular Committees


The Popular Committees (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ieoZUM4Nws5_cKdOGDUqWB-0zL5w?docId=CNG.57fbc89c875ff2813e5605f4ea70d382.1 f1) are frequently associated with Syria’s minority communities, including Christians, Druze, and Alawites. Both men and women are recruited as fighters in the Popular Committees. The committees are typically mobilized to defend specific villages or urban enclaves, such as Christian districts (http://www.fides.org/en/news/32247?idnews=32247&lan=eng#.UYbElEo5WzY), against armed opposition attack. Syria’s Kurdish community (http://syria360.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/kurdish-popular-committees-syria-will-become-a-graveyard-for-any-invader/) has also organized Popular Committees, particularly in areas where Kurds are concentrated, such as Aleppo and the northeastern al-Jazira region. There are even reports of pro-government Sunnis (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_bxrA0i962g) forming Popular Committees in restive areas of the country, including in and around the battlefields of Damascus’ southern suburbs.


Some of these Popular Committees, such as those formed in the diverse suburban district of Jaramana in southern Damascus, are reportedly composed of local fighters forming pan-sectarian fighting fronts (http://www.assafir.com/MulhakArticle.aspx?EditionId=2285&MulhakArticleId=764973&MulhakId=4680) that have been particularly effective in stalling armed opposition offensives. Palestinian Popular Committees formed by the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine-General Command (PFLP-GC) are also active in fighting against pro-opposition Palestinian factions inside the neighboring Yarmuk refugee camp (http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/13488) and against the Syrian armed opposition in the districts of Hajar al-Aswad and al-Midan. According to Filippo Grandi (http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/2013/03/12/Over-85-percent-Palestinians-fled-Syria-s-Yarmouk-camp-UNRWA.html), the Commissioner General of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), who was speaking at a press conference at the United Nations headquarters in New York,more than 86% of Yarmuk’s pre-civil war population of 150,000 people has been internally displaced in Syria or have become refugees in Syria’s neighbors due to fighting around Yarmuk.

Cooperation with Other Pro-Assad Forces


To enhance the ability of the Popular Committees to assume a greater burden of local and regional defense against the armed opposition, the Assad government is seeking to integrate the Popular Committees into a larger National Defense Army (NDA) (http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5ieoZUM4Nws5_cKdOGDUqWB-0zL5w?docId=CNG.57fbc89c875ff2813e5605f4ea70d382.1 f1), reportedly trained with the assistance of the Iranian Quds Force. Hezbollah (http://www.kirotv.com/ap/ap/religion/hezbollah-backed-lebanese-shiites-fight-in-syria/nXL5W/), at least in the strategic central-western province of Homs, is also believed to be assisting in the mobilization, training, and deployment of Popular Committees. The integration into the NDA (http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/15127) of village and urban district-level Popular Committees (usually composed primarily of one ethnic or sectarian group from the local area) is designed to raise pro-Assad, pro-Syrian nationalist morale over communal group identity.


A potential model for the Popular Committees/National Defense Forces as effective auxiliaries to the Syrian military or its allies, such as Hezbollah, is found in the strategic central-western Syrian governorate of Homs. Currently, thisregion of Syria is receiving a great deal of international attention as a result of Hezbollah’s involvement in the area and the importance of the Homs governorate to both the Assad government and the opposition. Popular Committees have been raised in several mixed-faith villages in the Orontes River Valley region west of al-Qusayr, where tens of thousands of residents claim Lebanese nationality.


The Homs region along the Lebanese border is strategically important because it links Damascus to the generally pro-government coastal regions of Syria by highway. Control of the region by the Syrian military, Hezbollah and the Popular Committees prevents the opposition from launching attacks against Hezbollah areas in Lebanon and provides pro-regime forces a route for supply and the transit of fighters from Tripoli and Akkar in northern Lebanon into the battlegrounds of Homs, Damascus, and Idlib. Hezbollah’s involvement in the villages of the Orontes River valley, west of al-Qusayr, is the result of clan and familial ties between the Shi’a living on both sides of the border. Hezbollah, both better-armed and more established militarily in the border region than the Lebanese military, is able to provide security for the Lebanese villagers in the area of al-Qusayr.


The Popular Committees are reported to be among the first in the area to have beenincorporated (http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/15127) under the NDA. Armed conflict between nominally pro-government villagers and armed opposition groups, including militant Salafists, led to the initial organization of Popular Committees in the area west of al-Qusayr (http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/13138). These committees are believed to be fighting opposition forces that include Jabhat al-Nusra, the Farouq Battalions (aligned with the Syrian Islamic Liberation Front), and several other fighting groups aligned with the Free Syrian Army (http://english.al-akhbar.com/node/15127).

The Battle for al-Qusayr


Recent fighting in the region was launched by the Syrian military and its allies (allegedly including Hezbollah) with the support of Syrian military airpower in order to seize al-Qusayr (http://english.alarabiya.net/en/News/middle-east/2013/04/21/Activists-Syrian-regime-provides-Hezbollah-aerial-shield-in-Qusayr-.html)from armed opposition forces. Popular Committee fighters are reported to be patrolling the Lebanese-Syrian border around al-Qusayr and al-Qasr and to be fighting (http://www.kirotv.com/ap/ap/religion/hezbollah-backed-lebanese-shiites-fight-in-syria/nXL5W/) fierce defensive and limited offensive engagements against committed opposition fighters. These operations are noteworthy as demonstrations of the willingness of the Popular Committees to confront, clear, and hold pro-Assad government villages retaken from the armed opposition groups.


The evolution of the Popular Committees over the course of the Syrian civil war has important implications for the future of civil society in the country. As the Popular Committees in Syria’s most restive regions evolve into locally cohesive divisions of a “National Defense Army,” they have the capacity to present a great challenge to the future military efforts of the armed opposition. Popular Committees, professionally trained in military doctrine and tactics and battle-tested in communal warfare, are demonstrating in Homs and in Damascus’ southern suburbs a readiness to assume the burden of civil defense that the Syrian army increasingly cedes to them.

Conclusion


In the event that the Assad government would have to contract its area of control into an Alawite-dominated “rump state” with a capital in Damascus connected to a coastal strip of territory in Homs, Tartus, and Lattakia provinces, Popular Committees organized on a local level would provide a source of security and manpower to aid police efforts in confronting the armed opposition. The Popular Committee/NDA units could also provide a pan-sectarian, “Syrian patriotic” political veneer and military front for a state likely to remain politically dominated by Alawites but dependent upon a loyal but minority-dominated base of support. In the event of the total collapse of the Assad government, the Popular Committees and the NDA may face severe retribution from the armed opposition and could become major combatants in communal warfare throughout the country.


Militant Islamist organizations such as Jabhat al-Nusra and the militias of the Syrian Islamic Liberation Front, including Ahrar al-Sham and the Farouq Brigades, are reported to have been involved in some of the bitterest communal fighting in the country. The potential for communal violence in highly diverse, socially complex regions of Syria, such as Homs, the cities of Damascus and Aleppo and the northeastern al-Jazira region in and around the city of Qamishli, poses immense challenges to necessary transitional processes, including demobilization, disarmament, establishment of the rule of law and the re-integration of militarized communities such as the Popular Committees into a wider Syrian body politic.
http://www.fairobserver.com/article/counter-insurgency-role-syria-popular-committee

[Sasha]

"Grassroots" :laugh:
These are nothing more than the old shabiba militia thugs who got a superficial propaganda makeover..
But keep on claiming all who oppose Assad are Zionist Islamist canibals while cheering on torturers and kiddy rapists.

[Tim Cornelis]

I don't really see the point of this thread. Anyone who's bothered to look up the Syrian Civil War (e.g. on wikipedia) is already aware of these people's committees. And I don't see how it pertains to the local coordination committees.

[Manar]

"Grassroots" :laugh:
These are nothing more than the old shabiba militia thugs who got a superficial propaganda makeover..
But keep on claiming all who oppose Assad are Zionist Islamist canibals while cheering on torturers and kiddy rapists.
Wahhabi running dog says what? When Syrian citizens, sick of the FSA's raping and pillaging of their country, rise up and try to defend their communities from these genocidal cannibals, they are "shabiha thugs", right? And when tens of thousands of NATO, Saudi and Qatari sponsored Salafi Jihadists flood into Syria, armed with guns bought and provided by NATO and the Gulf Monarchies, they are "freedom fighters", right?

"Kiddy rapists"? Oh yeah? What do you think the FSA does with their child soldiers when they don't have them commit suicide bombings or dig their own graves? They fuck them up the ass. It's only their right, they left their wives at home, in Tunisia, Egypt and Saudi Arabia; someone must keep them company while they are fighting Allah's Jihad against Syria, for they are lonely.

i-QQsFyCEAw

The FSA is content raping women too. One woman, 50 FSA Wahhabis? Sure, it's a party! Rape time!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=872_1371299076
6 minute mark.

[Zaza]

Wahhabi running dog says what? When Syrian citizens, sick of the FSA's raping and pillaging of their country, rise up and try to defend their communities from these genocidal cannibals, they are "shabiha thugs", right? And when tens of thousands of NATO, Saudi and Qatari sponsored Salafi Jihadists flood into Syria, armed with guns bought and provided by NATO and the Gulf Monarchies, they are "freedom fighters", right?

"Kiddy rapists"? Oh yeah? What do you think the FSA does with their child soldiers when they don't have them commit suicide bombings or dig their own graves? They fuck them up the ass. It's only their right, they left their wives at home, in Tunisia, Egypt and Saudi Arabia; someone must keep them company while they are fighting Allah's Jihad against Syria, for they are lonely.

i-QQsFyCEAw

The FSA is content raping women too. One woman, 50 FSA Wahhabis? Sure, it's a party! Rape time!
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=872_1371299076


You forgot about those occupants of the Saudi jails which are free to go after they agreed to fight against the Syrian govnerment. Not to forget the pay they get.

Also, the "rebells" have enough female children comming from other states which they can use for their holy jihad-nikah.

[Tim Cornelis]

So both sides are terrible, why do you two insist on supporting a bourgeois racist dictator responsible for indiscriminate attacks on Syria's population?

[Zaza]

So both sides are terrible, why do you two insist on supporting a bourgeois racist dictator responsible for indiscriminate attacks on Syria's population?

To who should he be racist if I may ask?

[Manar]

To who should he be racist if I may ask?
To the Ulamah, the Islamic Nation, because he refuses to institute Shariah Law.

[Tim Cornelis]

Iran is now sending 4,000 troops to Syria. Now y'all running dogs of the shia imperialist machine.


To who should he be racist if I may ask?

The Ba'athist regime declared Syria an all-Arab state and revoked the statehood of hundreds of thousands of Kurds and sought to wipe out their cultural identity (not allowing the Kurdish language). Presently, the Kurdish population is socially economically less developed than their Arabic counterparts.
If, say, Merkel declared Germany an all-Germanic state and revoked the statehood of hundreds of thousands of Turks, or even millions, then this would uncontroversially be declared racist.


To the Ulamah, the Islamic Nation, because he refuses to institute Shariah Law.

Oh shut it. Your obvious bias in favour of oppressive strongmen has impaired your ability to evaluate the situation as it actually is. Meanwhile you are propping up a bourgeois, racist, imperialist-backed dictator that has massacred thousands to retain in power. And of course you don't have the same problems with Hezbollah and other Islamic fundamentalists as long as they back your preferred strongman. But you're blindsided to all of this because of your bonapartist cognitive bias.

[Manar]

So both sides are terrible, why do you two insist on supporting a bourgeois racist dictator responsible for indiscriminate attacks on Syria's population?
Indiscriminate? What do you mean, comrade?The Syrian Government is very discriminate about whom it targets. It calls for civilians to evacuate soon-to-be combat zones sometimes months prior to the actual government offensives. Like in the recent liberation of Qusayr. In Al-Qusayr, actually, most of the civilians fled before the rebels suddenly blocked their exists and forbade them from evacuating the city. When the city was liberated, hundreds of these Wahhabi cannibals were able to escape because the Syrian Arab Army and Hezbollah volunteers didn't want to hurt the civilians who were taken captive as human shields by the escaping rebels.

[Tim Cornelis]

Indiscriminate? What do you mean, comrade?The Syrian Government is very discriminate about whom it targets. It calls for civilians to evacuate soon-to-be combat zones sometimes months prior to the actual government offensives.

Maybe he sent those messages in Arabic because Kurdish neighbourhoods have sustained civilian casualties resulting from indiscriminate regime bombings. In a more serious tone, the indiscriminate attacks on civilians (including Arabs of course) have been well known and well documented for years already. So any sources I provide, I presume, will be discarded and dismissed as "bourgeois imperialist propaganda" by you.
Nonetheless, here's some of the least biased sources:

http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/reports/indiscriminate-attacks-kill-terrorize-and-displace-civilians-in-syria
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_details.asp?NewsID=20676
http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/press-releases/syria-indiscriminate-bombing-residential-neighbourhood-damascus-2012-10-22-0
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=45162&Cr=syria&Cr1#.Ub2nCPmLB-c
http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/10/syria-aerial-attacks-strike-civilians

Amnesty International disproportionally reports on human rights abuses in and by the US and other Western countries, so it's by no means an "imperialist" extension. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty_International#Country_focus )


Like in the recent liberation [re-occupation] of Qusayr. In Al-Qusayr, actually, most of the civilians fled before the rebels suddenly blocked their exists and forbade them from evacuating the city. When the city was liberated, hundreds of these Wahhabi cannibals

Really? Hundreds of those Wahhabis ate humans? Source please.


were able to escape because the Syrian Arab Army and Hezbollah volunteers didn't want to hurt the civilians who were taken captive as human shields by the escaping rebels.

Allahu ackbar then! Bless Almighty Allah (swt) for Hezbollah, may they kill many infidels insha'Allah! Oh wait...

Evidently, they're not going to slaughter all Syrians, but that they have indiscriminately targeted Syrians is well established. This does not imply, as you imply this implies (still with me?), it means it's all they do.

The Ba'athist regime:
- Is imperialist-backed
- Has persecuted communists
- Is racist
- Has indiscriminately targeted civilians to terrorise them
- Supports Islamic fundamentalism
- is neoliberal
- supports thugs that rape

Let's hope they win huh.

inb4: false dichotomy

[Zaza]

The Ba'athist regime:
- Is imperialist-backed
- Has persecuted communists
- Is racist
- Has indiscriminately targeted civilians to terrorise them
- Supports Islamic fundamentalism
- is neoliberal
- supports thugs that rape



And? I doubt they would be as victorious without them as they are without them. I doubt anyone goes around in a war and avoids getting weapons by someone if he needs them.
The FSA does the same with America.
"Even if they hate them".

"Has indiscriminately targeted civilians to terrorise them"
I doubt so much that this is true. I doubt that they need more enemies right now.
And especially since it was "indiscriminately" as you say, I doubt they would be interested in killing their own supporters.

And who are those thugs you are speaking of?

[Sasha]

Maybe if Assad fucked off when the people rose up peacefully those damned "wahabist terrorists" never became a factor. And even more so if Assad himself wouldn't have invited them into the country in the first place to destabelise Iraq (where they where killing Shiites already) in his synical powerplays...
Hand that fed them and all...

[Tim Cornelis]

And? I doubt they would be as victorious without them as they are without them. I doubt anyone goes around in a war and avoids getting weapons by someone if he needs them.

To whom are you referring now?


"Has indiscriminately targeted civilians to terrorise them"
I doubt so much that this is true. I doubt that they need more enemies right now.
And especially since it was "indiscriminately" as you say, I doubt they would be interested in killing their own supporters.

I already posted these:


http://www.amnestyusa.org/research/r...lians-in-syria
https://www.amnesty.org.uk/news_deta...p?NewsID=20676
http://www.amnesty.org/en/for-media/...s-2012-10-22-0
http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.as...1#.Ub2nCPmLB-c
http://www.hrw.org/news/2013/04/10/s...rike-civilians

Amnesty International disproportionally reports on human rights abuses in and by the US and other Western countries, so it's by no means an "imperialist" extension. (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amnesty...#Country_focus )

I will cite one:


Indiscriminate air bombardments and artillery strikes by the Syrian army are killing, maiming and terrorizing the residents of Jabal al-Zawiya and other parts of the Idlib and north Hama regions.

Every day civilians are killed or injured in their homes, in the street, while running for cover or trying to shelter from the bombings. Hundreds have been killed or injured in recent weeks, many of them children, in indiscriminate attacks.

Battlefield weapons and munitions – unguided bombs dropped from the air and imprecise artillery shells and mortars which have a wide impact radius and cannot be aimed at specific targets – are now being used daily against residential areas, significantly increasing the number of civilian casualties. Such indiscriminate attacks violate fundamental provisions of international humanitarian law, as they fail to distinguish between military targets and civilian objects. In the Idlib, Jabal al-Zawiya and north Hama regions, where Amnesty International carried out its investigations for this report, such attacks account for the overwhelming majority of civilian casualties in the current phase of the conflict and have forced massive civilian displacement. Unexploded ordnance and remnants of weapons founds at the scene of strikes in the areas visited by Amnesty International include: air-delivered Soviet era unguided fragmentary OFAB-100-120 bombs and other unidentified unguided bombs packed full of pieces of metal rods for maximum impact; 122mm artillery shells; 120mm mortars (in one case an 82 mm mortar); and S5 rockets.

Some towns and villages have been virtually emptied of their residents, many of whom are now camping out in the surrounding countryside or hiding in caves; others are crowding in with relatives in what they hope are safer areas, while others have sought refuge in Turkey – or are currently stuck at the border with Turkey waiting to flee the country.

With the attention of the international media mostly focused on the fighting in Aleppo and the capital, hardly any news reaches the outside world about the horrors of daily life for the residents of Idlib, Jabal al-Zawiya and north Hama regions.

Amnesty International visited 26 towns and villages between August 31 and September 11 and carried out on-the-ground field investigations into indiscriminate attacks which killed 166 civilians (including 48 children and 20 women) and injured hundreds of others. In recent days Amnesty International has continued to receive information from residents of several villages about ongoing air and artillery attacks, some of which have resulted in yet more civilian casualties.


And who are those thugs you are speaking of?

Shabiha thugs.

[Manar]

Iran is now sending 4,000 troops to Syria. Now y'all running dogs of the shia imperialist machine.
Iran is a semi-colonial country, not an imperialist one, and either way, that's a stupid conspiracy theory The Independent invented yesterday, citing super-secret sources(yeah, right).



The Ba'athist regime declared Syria an all-Arab state and revoked the statehood of hundreds of thousands of Kurds and sought to wipe out their cultural identity (not allowing the Kurdish language).
Not really, go and read the Syrian consitution, it guarantees the freedom of religion, bars any discrimination on the basis of sex, religion, origin or creed.


Presently, the Kurdish population is socially economically less developed than their Arabic counterparts.
Yeah sure, that's obviously why the Kurds are fighting for Assad furiously, like in Aleppo right now.


If, say, Merkel declared Germany an all-Germanic state and revoked the statehood of hundreds of thousands of Turks, or even millions, then this would uncontroversially be declared racist.
Of course.


Oh shut it. Your obvious bias in favour of oppressive strongmen has impaired your ability to evaluate the situation as it actually is.
"Strongmen" ahahahhahaha, have you ever seen Assad on video? He's as gentle as a flower. You're thinking of his father.
BIF7Xx1JiVo


Meanwhile you are propping up a bourgeois
If we must choose between a bourgeois president and a genocidal Caliphate, I'll choose the bourgeois president any day of the week.



racist
Nope


imperialist-backed dictator
Every single imperialist power in the world is sponsoring the opposition, with a few exceptions like Germany.


that has massacred thousands to retain in power.
Massacred thousands of Wahhabis, sure, which is a pretty good thing. The longer these scum live, the more they insult the dignity of the human race.


And of course you don't have the same problems with Hezbollah and other Islamic fundamentalists as long as they back your preferred strongman
Hezbollah isn't Wahhabi. Actually, they are Shias. I don't really have much of a problem with them. They collect garbage, build hospitals and schools, supply clean water, feed the hungry and maintain Lebanon's independence from the Zionist Entity. They hand their enemy wounded over to the Red Cross. They don't even eat people, so that's good. The Wahhabis force their children to dig their own graves, behead their captives and rape women in packs.


But you're blindsided to all of this because of your bonapartist cognitive bias.
Of course, I even masturbate to Assad photos when I'm all alone.

[Manar]

Maybe he sent those messages in Arabic because Kurdish neighbourhoods have sustained civilian casualties resulting from indiscriminate regime bombings.
Yeah Assad killed so many Kurds that they decided to join his side. That's totally how that works.



In a more serious tone, the indiscriminate attacks on civilians (including Arabs of course) have been well known and well documented for years already.
Documented by whom? Oh right...



So any sources I provide, I presume, will be discarded and dismissed as "bourgeois imperialist propaganda" by you.
Nonetheless, here's some of the least biased sources:

So you admit these links were biased but you don't want me to dismiss them as propaganda? Please. FSA cannibals forcing children to behead civilians on camera are evidence, blocs of text by pro-imperialist Western organisations don't mean shit.




- Is imperialist-backed
Tell me again whom NATO is backing.


- Has persecuted communists
So? I don't support the Syrian Government against communists. I support the Syrian Government against Salafi Jihadis that want to create a Caliphate in Syria.


- Is racist
Not really.


- Has indiscriminately targeted civilians to terrorise them
That wouldn't really be a rational thing for them to do considering that most Syrians have supported the government since the beginning.


- Supports Islamic fundamentalism
Or not. If the Syrian government supported Wahhabism, every single Wahhabi on this planet wouldn't be calling for Jihad against Syria.


- is neoliberal
So? Almost every country is.


- supports thugs that rapeThey are actually at war with said thugs. It's called the Syrian Civil War, ever heard of it?

[helot]

lol at supposed communists supporting bourgeois forces.

[Manar]

Maybe if Assad fucked off when the people rose up peacefully those damned "wahabist terrorists" never became a factor. And even more so if Assad himself wouldn't have invited them into the country in the first place to destabelise Iraq (where they where killing Shiites already) in his synical powerplays...
Hand that fed them and all...
First of all, why would Assad have fucked off when most of the country was for him? A few hundred thousand anti-Assad protesters in a country of 20 million, with millions of pro-Assad protestors? Yeah, the people did rise up, except, they rose up against the anti-Assad protestors. Why do you think these lackeys of foreign imperialism start this war? Precisely because they did not find substantial support within the Syrian populace.

And secondly, just what the fuck are you smoking? Are you saying that Assad invited Sunni Jihadis into Syria, so they could kill Assad's Shia allies in Iraq? Just what the fuck is wrong with you? And you do know that the Sunni Jihadis would feel obligated to kill themselves for agreeing to be aided by Shia "apostates" and "rejectionists", right? Assad sheltering Sunni Jihadists is as fucking likely as Israel sheltering Nazi war criminals. Actually, Assad sheltering Sunni Jihadists so they could go and kill his Shia friends in Iraq is as likely as Israel sheltering Nazi war criminals so they could later go to America and kill Republicans.

[Zaza]

lol at supposed communists supporting bourgeois forces.

Yeaaah ! I should hate the Army which protects my people down there right? :rolleyes:

Better support the FSA, which are basically the same people who burned us down 1993 in Sivas.

[Tim Cornelis]

Iran is a semi-colonial country, not an imperialist one, and either way, that's a stupid conspiracy theory The Independent invented yesterday, citing super-secret sources(yeah, right).

Semi-colonial?! To whom is it semi-colonial, because if the interdependence of economic relations skewed in favour of one (ever so slightly or entirely) makes you semi-colonial then Greece is semi-colonial to Germany, and Ireland to the UK. Iran is a highly developed country, positioned above Ukraine in terms of human development (and Bosnia, Azerbeijan, Brazil, Turkey, China, India, South Africa). And Iran is in the same category (namely High Human Development) as Russia and Saudi Arabia. How is it possibly "semi-colonial"?

Zimbabwe participated in the Congo Civil War to reap economic benefits, it was awarded stakes in mines and hundreds of acres of land in Congo. This constitutes imperialism. Yet Zimbabwe was one of the least developed countries in the world. If Zimbabwe can be imperialist, so can any country.


Not really, go and read the Syrian consitution, it guarantees the freedom of religion, bars any discrimination on the basis of sex, religion, origin or creed.

This makes no sense whatsoever: you are going to deny the fact that hundred thousands of Kurds have had their Syrian citizenship revoked because a piece of paper nominally suggested this is not allowed?
The American Constitution declared "all men are created equal" does this mean the slavery and subsequent segregation of African American never occurred? And that native Americans were never persecuted. That would be the exact same logic.
The facts on the ground weigh infinitely more than a piece of paper with hollow rights and declarations.


Yeah sure, that's obviously why the Kurds are fighting for Assad furiously, like in Aleppo right now.

Is that sarcasm because that statement is one hundred percent true. The Kurdish YPG has clashed with the Syrian armed forces on innumerable occasions. Here we see a symbolic instant of Kurdish fighers removing the Syrian flag and flying the Democratic Union Party flag:

http://www.firatnews.com/gallery/halep-te-kurtler-stratejik-noktalari-ele-gecirdi



Of course.

Then logically the Syrian Ba'athist is racist.


"Strongmen" ahahahhahaha, have you ever seen Assad on video? He's as gentle as a flower. You're thinking of his father.

No, strongman doesn't mean a charismatic leader of charismatic dictator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strongman_(politics)

Don't laugh at someone if you're not sure what you're talking about.



If we must choose between a bourgeois president and a genocidal Caliphate, I'll choose the bourgeois president any day of the week.


inb4: false dichotomy

Called it. Though to be fair, it was really predictable.


Nope

You already admitted as much with the Merkel analogy.


Every single imperialist power in the world is sponsoring the opposition, with a few exceptions like Germany.

Germany wouldn't count anyway, being semi-colonial and all.

Iran, Russia, China back Syria's Ba'athist regime.


Massacred thousands of Wahhabis, sure, which is a pretty good thing. The longer these scum live

I agree, the death of Islamists is net positive. However, he has also massacred thousands of Syrian civilians through indiscriminate arial bombings of neighbourhoods as I've already explained.


Hezbollah isn't Wahhabi. Actually, they are Shias.

I never said they weren't. I'm saying they are Islamic fundamentalists, which they are. And you are sympathetic to these "Islamofascists" while hating on other "Islamofascists" because they don't like your stronman.


I don't really have much of a problem with them.

Of course you don't.


They collect garbage, build hospitals and schools, supply clean water, feed the hungry and maintain Lebanon's independence from the Zionist Entity.

Right, so does the Iranian regime and Golden Dawn is aiming at doing exactly this, they are currently feeding the hungry and aim at, explicitly, "becoming Greece's Golden Dawn". A Golden Dawn MP said this. So now, I suppose, you don't have much of a problem with Golden Dawn either. Golden Dawn, incidentally, also doesn't like Zionism.


They hand their enemy wounded over to the Red Cross. They don't even eat people, so that's good. The Wahhabis force their children to dig their own graves, behead their captives and rape women in packs.

Stop pretending all opposing forces are Wahhabis and cannibals. You getting a mental hard on at bonapartist strongmen has impaired your ability to look at a situation, recognise its complexity and not become blindsided.

But keep going at it mate! At the current trajectory of your admissions you'll be restricted.


Of course, I even masturbate to Assad photos when I'm all alone.

It wouldn't surprise me.

[Manar]

Shabiha thugs.
Do you realize that "shabiha" is what rebels call pro-government civilians in order to justify beheading them?


lol at supposed communists supporting bourgeois forces.
Communists have been supporting relatively progressive bourgeois forces since Marx himself. It's not some sort of novelty. Marx spent years defending the United States during the Civil War there, as you might recall.

[helot]

Yeaaah ! I should hate the Army which protects my people down there right? :rolleyes:

Better support the FSA, which are basically the same people who burned us down 1993 in Sivas.

and then strawmanning...

I can't believe i have to say this but you're not supposed to pick sides in bourgeois conflicts. The side you're to pick is that of the working class and only then if it's not fucking reactionary.

And if your user info is correct.. you're in fucking germany, you saying "i support so and so" is as useful as an umbrella made of sugar cubes.





Communists have been supporting relatively progressive bourgeois forces since Marx himself. It's not some sort of novelty. Marx spent years defending the United States during the Civil War there, as you might recall.

who gives a toss? You shouldn't use that fallacy. "Oh well if Marx did it..." /facepalm

[Zaza]

Is that sarcasm because that statement is one hundred percent true. The Kurdish YPG has clashed with the Syrian armed forces on innumerable occasions. Here we see a symbolic instant of Kurdish fighers removing the Syrian flag and flying the Democratic Union Party flag:


The YPG also fights against the FSA and Al-Nusra.

[Tim Cornelis]

Yeah Assad killed so many Kurds that they decided to join his side. That's totally how that works.

No they haven't. They oppose the regime, a part of an opposition group, have killed regime forces and regime forces have killed and tortured Kurdish soldiers.

You can read about it here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/kurds-socialism-syrian-t178589/index.html


Documented by whom? Oh right...

Called it!


So any sources I provide, I presume, will be discarded and dismissed as "bourgeois imperialist propaganda" by you.

So now any information you don't like is false. I've already demonstrated how Amnesty International disproportionally reports on human rights abuses by the US and the West, but just ignore that.


So you admit these links were biased but you don't want me to dismiss them as propaganda? Please. FSA cannibals forcing children to behead civilians on camera are evidence, blocs of text by pro-imperialist Western organisations don't mean shit.

Biased against the US and the West as I've already demonstrated... :rolleyes:


Tell me again whom NATO is backing.

Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know imperialism is synonymous with the West. It's the only imperialism right?


So? I don't support the Syrian Government against communists. I support the Syrian Government against Salafi Jihadis that want to create a Caliphate in Syria.

But also support the Syrian government supporting Islamic fundamentalists wanting to create a Caliphate in Lebanon and Syria.... Hezbollah. You even explicitly said you don't mind them!
Talk about cognitive dissonance!


Not really.

Yeah really. Calling Syria an all Arab state then discriminating against Kurds and revoking the statehood of many Kurds is tit bit racist innit?


That wouldn't really be a rational thing for them to do considering that most Syrians have supported the government since the beginning.

Food for thought: maybe they didn't.


Or not. If the Syrian government supported Wahhabism, every single Wahhabi on this planet wouldn't be calling for Jihad against Syria.

I've never said they supported Wahhabism you. He's something revealing:
Islamic fundamentalism is not synonymous with Wahhabism!

Hezbollah is an Islamic fundamentalist group, it's not Wahhabist, it is Islamist and fundamentalist. Not that hard to comprehend.


So? Almost every country is.

We're communists, you'd think at least.


They are actually at war with said thugs. It's called the Syrian Civil War, ever heard of it?

Shabiha.


The YPG also fights against the FSA and Al-Nusra.

I know, I don't support either of them now do I? Why would you think I'd support Islamist fundamentalists? Life isn't a clear cut dichotomy. Previously in this thread:


both sides are terrible,

[Manar]

and then strawmanning...

I can't believe i have to say this but you're not supposed to pick sides in bourgeois conflicts. The side you're to pick is that of the working class and only then if it's not fucking reactionary.

And if your user info is correct.. you're in fucking germany, you saying "i support so and so" is as useful as an umbrella made of sugar cubes.





who gives a toss? You shouldn't use that fallacy. "Oh well if Marx did it..." /facepalm
Just what the fuck are you talking about? We operate within the Marxist tradition. And a part of the Marxist legacy is to support bourgeois forces wherever they are progressive. It's either the secular Syrian bourgeoisie, or Wahhabi cannibals backed by the world's most powerful imperialists and oppressors. There is no third camp. Go to Syria and start a proletarian communist camp, and we'll support it. If you don't want to, we'll continue to support the progressive bourgeois forces, following a precedent set by Marx himself. Marx and his disciples always chose a side in "bourgeois conflicts", so we'll follow in his footsteps, fine?

[Zaza]

and then strawmanning...

I can't believe i have to say this but you're not supposed to pick sides in bourgeois conflicts. The side you're to pick is that of the working class and only then if it's not fucking reactionary.

And if your user info is correct.. you're in fucking germany, you saying "i support so and so" is as useful as an umbrella made of sugar cubes.


And since when does the FSA represent the proletariats?
Their only purpose is to take the syrian govnerment down.

I honestly don't care if the SAA gets support from Russia,Iran and China.
The rebells get theirs from America,Europe and some arab countries.

And what do you mean with my location? Can't I support someone because I am not in the same street as they are?


From what I've seen the turkish and syrian workers are standing with Al-Assad anyway.

[Tim Cornelis]

Do you realize that "shabiha" is what rebels call pro-government civilians in order to justify beheading them?

Except it isn't. It's armed thugs that act as reinforcers of the regime. But why should I bother? Every single well-reported well-established fact I've provided you with you have dismissed because it doesn't fit in your narrow, biased, pro-Assad worldview. Your world is black and white, all those opposed to Assad are cannibals and Wahhabists and the Ba'athist regime has shown nothing but restraint and respect for the Syrian people..


Communists have been supporting relatively progressive bourgeois forces since Marx himself. It's not some sort of novelty. Marx spent years defending the United States during the Civil War there, as you might recall.

Yeah supporting the bourgeois forces in its historical role of advancing the preconditions for the emancipation of the working class, in this case abolishing slavery in favour of wage-labour. You're ignoring context.


And since when does the FSA represent the proletariats?

Are you two really this dense? Helot does not support the FSA. Again, it's a false dichotomy.

[Per Levy]

Yeaaah ! I should hate the Army which protects my people down there right? :rolleyes:

well yeah you should, today they "protect" you tomorrow they kill you because you're a commie worker. the army is a tool of the bourgeoisie and not your friend.


Better support the FSA, which are basically the same people who burned us down 1993 in Sivas.

wich wasnt even implied but hey strawman arguments rule the day every day.

[Per Levy]

Every single imperialist power in the world is sponsoring the opposition, with a few exceptions like Germany.

you do realize that china, russia and iran are imperialist countries who do not support the fsa and aligned groups, quite the opposite.

[helot]

Just what the fuck are you talking about? We operate within the Marxist tradition. And a part of the Marxist legacy is to support bourgeois forces wherever they are progressive. It's either the secular Syrian bourgeoisie, or Wahhabi cannibals backed by the world's most powerful imperialists and oppressors. There is no third camp. Go to Syria and start a proletarian communist camp, and we'll support it. If you don't want to, we'll continue to support the progressive bourgeois forces, following a precedent set by Marx himself. Marx and his disciples always chose a side in "bourgeois conflicts", so we'll follow in his footsteps, fine?

Further appeals to Marx.

It's not really support is it? All you're doing is saying you support them but you're not actually offering any real support. It is meaningless. So what's the point?


And since when does the FSA represent the proletariats? I never said they did. This is your strawmanning. Because i'm criticising your support of one bourgeois faction over another you immediately think i support the opposing bourgeois faction. It's quite amusing.



And what do you mean with my location? Can't I support someone because I am not in the same street as they are? Are you offering financial backing? No? What does your "support" amount to? I'm pretty sure it's just saying shit on a message board.




From what I've seen the turkish and syrian workers are standing with Al-Assad anyway.

So? There are also workers standing against Assad. There are workers siding with loads of reactionary forces around the world. What's your point? Workers can be reactionary?

[Zaza]

wich wasnt even implied but hey strawman arguments rule the day every day.

But I am still going to mention it.
Under Assad minorities could live better than in other countries in the near east.
And you didn't have to expect hate crimes, as in Turkey.

The FSA/Al-Nusra kills christians, alawis and even sunnis.
The first two because they hate them, the sunnis if they are pro-Assad.

I GUESS living under Assad would be more pleasing for alot of people than under a pseudo sunnah-regime.

[Zaza]

Further appeals to Marx.

It's not really support is it? All you're doing is saying you support them but you're not actually offering any real support. It is meaningless. So what's the point?

I never said they did. This is your strawmanning. Because i'm criticising your support of one bourgeois faction over another you immediately think i support the opposing bourgeois faction. It's quite amusing.

Are you offering financial backing? No? What does your "support" amount to? I'm pretty sure it's just saying shit on a message board.



So? There are also workers standing against Assad. There are workers siding with loads of reactionary forces around the world. What's your point? Workers can be reactionary?


Are you seriously arguing with me about how I support someone?
Yes, I meant it more in the "I am standing with him"-way. Not that I am actually going down there and fight.
But I guess it's more than just some shit on a message board.
I'm being a part of protests and hopefully in a month in turkey too.

[Paul Cockshott]

lol at supposed communists supporting bourgeois forces.

This has been an absolutely standard position when opposing monarchist counter-revolution and what is a movement funded by the King of Saudia Arabia but monarchist reaction?

[Manar]

No they haven't. They oppose the regime, a part of an opposition group, have killed regime forces and regime forces have killed and tortured Kurdish soldiers.

You can read about it here: http://www.revleft.com/vb/kurds-socialism-syrian-t178589/index.html
Outdated information. They tried to play both sides and remain neutral. Then didn't work out well since the FSA view their refusal to join them as a criminal act, and have declared war on them while Al-Qusayr was being liberated(on May 26, over 20 rebel gangs issued an official declaration of war on YPG, including all the leading Salafi outfits, and the rest of the rebel gangs declared war on the YPG in the following days and weeks). Following this, the Kurds have been signing alliances with the SAA and pro-government citizens's militias, in order to lift the sieges of various Kurd towns and villages being attacked by the rebels. In Ifreen(population 500,000) for example, very intense battles between Kurd/SAA and rebel gangs have been occurring. They are dozens of videos of this online, like:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6f7_1371261566


So now any information you don't like is false. I've already demonstrated how Amnesty International disproportionally reports on human rights abuses by the US and the West, but just ignore that.
These are the same shitheads that reported the FSA's massacre in Houla, which targeted pro-government Alawites(and even wiped out the entire family of a prominent pro-Assad Syrian MP) as a "shabiha atrocity".



Biased against the US and the West as I've already demonstrated... :rolleyes:

So biased against NATO that they are reinforcing NATO's imperial ambitions in Syria. Fuck yeah.



Oh I'm sorry, I didn't know imperialism is synonymous with the West. It's the only imperialism right?

It's synonymous with the West. America accounts for 40 percent of the world's military spending. NATO and her lackeys account for something like 70-80%. Non-Western imperialism is so negligible compared to Western imperialism that it's laughable.


But also support the Syrian government supporting Islamic fundamentalists wanting to create a Caliphate in Lebanon and Syria.... Hezbollah. You even explicitly said you don't mind them!
Talk about cognitive dissonance!

You with your stupid lies again. Hezbollah has accepted a secular government in Lebanon for decades now. Since the 1990s. 20 years now. It's not the 1980s anymore.


Yeah really. Calling Syria an all Arab state then discriminating against Kurds and revoking the statehood of many Kurds is tit bit racist innit?
Except, that never happened.




Food for thought: maybe they didn't.
If they didn't you wouldn't have had, parallel to anti-Assad demonstrations of 10,000 people, pro-Assad demonstrations of 100,000 people. Are you so naive to believe that the Assad government would have survived for almost 3 years if it weren't supported by the Syrian government? The most powerful, influential and wealthy powers in the world and in the region are actively fighting against Assad, spending billions of dollars on this proxy war. Fuck, Saudi Arabia is importing bus loads of convicts from their prisons to fight in Syria, they are that fucking desperate to overthrow the Syrian government.


I've never said they supported Wahhabism you. He's something revealing:
Islamic fundamentalism is not synonymous with Wahhabism!

Hezbollah is an Islamic fundamentalist group, it's not Wahhabist, it is Islamist and fundamentalist. Not that hard to comprehend.
What is "Islamic fundamentalism"? Please, spare me the Western propaganda terms. Hezbollah doesn't even demand Shariah law in Lebanon. Stop being a shithead for a few hours and learn at least a few things about the intricacies of Lebanese politics. Hezbollah began as a hardcore Islamic movement in the 1980s, but that swiftly changed by the 1990s. These days Hezbollah's focus is on Arab nationalism, anti-colonialism, anti-Zionism and social welfare and social justice issues.


We're communists, you'd think at least.




Shabiha.
You can repeat that term a million times, but that doesn't change the fact that "shabiha" is just a boogey man invented by the cannibals to justify executing pro-government civilians, community leaders, tribal elders, and so on.

[Manar]

Further appeals to Marx.


I apologize for being too Marxist.

[Manar]

Except it isn't. It's armed thugs that act as reinforcers of the regime. But why should I bother? Every single well-reported well-established fact I've provided you with you have dismissed because it doesn't fit in your narrow, biased, pro-Assad worldview. Your world is black and white, all those opposed to Assad are cannibals and Wahhabists and the Ba'athist regime has shown nothing but restraint and respect for the Syrian people..
Armed civilians that try to protect their wives and children and homes from pillaging, raping and cannibalizing Salafi scum are "armed thugs"? Can you show me evidence of this? Not really. On the other hand, the rebels proudly post their atrocities on the internet. Their beheadings, summary executions of civilians, their child soldiers, their cannibalism.

And yes, the Syrian Army has shown nothing but restraint and respect for the Syrian people. They are, after all, Syrian people themselves, not Saudi-hired Salafis. Why would they disrespect themselves? The army, after all, is a revolutionary institution. Remind me again, who was it that conducted the October Revolution? Russian soldiers and sailors.



Yeah supporting the bourgeois forces in its historical role of advancing the preconditions for the emancipation of the working class, in this case abolishing slavery in favour of wage-labour. You're ignoring context.
The Salafis want to commit genocide against Alawites, Christians and now Kurds and they want to abolish the secular system of government and replace it with a cleric-lead Caliphate subjugated to the will of the Gulf Monarchies and NATO imperialists. The Syrian Government's role in this mess is to prevent this, maintain secularism and prevent genocide. I'm not ignoring context at all. In a battle between the bourgeoisie and Salafi savages, there is only one camp whose side you can take.

[helot]

I apologize for being too Marxist.

So a Marxist has to unthinkingly do as Marx said? I thought you were meant to be "scientific socialists". Is not the rampant appeals to authority in contradiction to this? If science was about appeals to authority quantum mechanics would be denied at every turn.

[Zaza]

Well, didn't the "rebells" said once, "Allahu Akbaaar, we will eat your hearts and livers." ?
That pretty much sounds like they are cannibals.

[helot]

Well, didn't the "rebells" said once, "Allahu Akbaaar, we will eat your hearts and livers." ?
That pretty much sounds like they are cannibals.


Haven't you ever been on a demo where people are chanting "eat the rich, feed the poor"? It's not necessarily in good taste but it doesn't make people cannibals. You need to actually eat human flesh to be a cannibal.

[Zaza]

Haven't you ever been on a demo where people are chanting "eat the rich, feed the poor"? It's not necessarily in good taste but it doesn't make people cannibals. You need to actually eat human flesh to be a cannibal.

http://media.indiatimes.in/media/content/2013/May/syria_rebel_eating_heart_2_1368528897_540x540.jpg

[helot]

http://media.indiatimes.in/media/content/2013/May/syria_rebel_eating_heart_2_1368528897_540x540.jpg


That doesn't constitute as evidence and i think you know why.

[Zaza]

I can clearly see a "syrian" rebell which eats an heart from a soldier. How is this not an evidence.

[helot]

I can clearly see a "syrian" rebell which eats an heart from a soldier. How is this not an evidence.


That's a heart to you? The image is too low quality for me to make out what it is.

Also, how do you know he's a rebel? It's some guy in a jacket holding something to his mouth in front of some rubble.

[Zaza]

That's a heart to you? The image is too low quality for me to make out what it is.

Also, how do you know he's a rebel? It's some guy in a jacket holding something to his mouth in front of some rubble.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEZUraRor1o
Here, proving that it's a rebell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_995262&feature=iv&src_vid=3UTdo5_8Mnc&v=U30EEsDMmFo here proving that it is an heart.
Yes you can't see it. But the answer should be clear why it is censored.

Google it, you will find more.

[helot]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEZUraRor1o
Here, proving that it's a rebell.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_995262&feature=iv&src_vid=3UTdo5_8Mnc&v=U30EEsDMmFo here proving that it is an heart.
Yes you can't see it. But the answer should be clear why it is censored.

Google it, you will find more.

You should have started with that as opposed to the still image as it's far clearer the guy's eating human flesh.

[Zaza]

You should have started with that as opposed to the still image as it's far clearer the guy's eating human flesh.

I guessed you knew already about this cannibal, even if you "asked" for some edvience.

[helot]

I guessed you knew already about this cannibal, even if you "asked" for some edvience.

Nah i didn't but thanks for enlightening me.

[Manar]

That's not just a "rebel". That's Abu Sakkar, one of the founders and commanders of the Farouq Brigades, whose cannibalism was almost universally praised by the rebels in Syria. The Farouqs, by the way, who were estimated to have 20,000 fighters are one point, fly the white taliban flag. This one:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/24/Flag_of_Taliban.svg/800px-Flag_of_Taliban.svg.png
They combine it it with the different FSA embels:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/6f/Farouq_Brigades.jpg
The various "opposition groups" in Turkey issued arrest warrants, but since they have no authority on the ground in Syria, the rebels told them to fuck off. The savage made another video where he cut up an unarmed Syrian up with a saw before his cannibalism, and nobody gave a fuck back then either.

He was later wounded during the liberation of Al-Qusayr
http://edge.liveleak.com/80281E/s/s/20/media20/2013/May/27/LiveLeak-dot-com-e92fea8174db-abu_sakkar_injury.jpg.resized.jpg?d5e8cc8eccfb6039 332f41f6249e92b06c91b4db65f5e99818bad0974e4dd3d688 58&ec_rate=200

Since the Free Salafi Army abandoned all their wounded in Qusayr after they fled with human shields, he is probably one of the over 1,000 PoWs captured after Qusayr was liberated. I hope he isn't one of the rebels handed over to the Red Cross by Hezbollah, that guy needs to be shot in the face a few times, instead of being nurtured by the Red Cross.

And here he is in Qusayr before his injury:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=02f_1369049188
I guess they downgraded that arrest warrant to a "trim your beard" warrant.

[Tim Cornelis]

Outdated information.

It is absolutely not. You assume it to be outdated, while in a state of ignorance, because the information is uncomfortable to you. From the PYD website:



The Syrian Kurdish leader of PYD Saleh Mohammed Muslim assured that PYD takes a position and works together with the Syrian democratic opposition represented in the National Coordination Body for democratic change.

Muslim said to Al Badeel newspaper which conducted with him an interview that everyone knows that the Democratic Union Party (PYD) which has suffered so much last 10 years of systematic campaign by the regime, throughout all methods of repression, torture and detention of hundreds of cadres and supporters, and many of PYD leaders were killed at the hands of authoritarian Baathist regime. Therefore there is no way and under any circumstances to stand with this regime which suppresses us. We also reject any of those who manipulating and bragging that they stand against authoritarian regime more than us.

We are not agents for any

Kurdish leader and activist in the Coordination Body rejected any possible external interference in the internal affairs of Syria, whether it will be Turkey or Atlanta, stressing that the preface to this interference is throughout blurry calls. Muslim was surprised that «Most of the voices calling for foreign intervention aiming at Turkey, which we absolutely reject it as the legacy of the Turkey is anti-Kurdish people's rights».

Further about the accusation against his Party however that this position goes within the context of understanding linked with the Syrian regime, Muslim answered: «These accusations are unfounded, let them bring to us an evidence of these allegations about our involvement with the authoritarian regime. We are moving and working on our own political views and we refuse to drag the Kurdish street to violence to carry out foreign agenda which does not represent the Syrians national interest. We are not agents, not for the regime nor the opposition which operates in a regional agenda.

Turkish Penetration into the council

So about Democratic Union Party comments on the Syrian National Council, Muslim declared: «We said from the outset that the conferences that Turkey contradicts the hopes and dreams of the Kurds in Syria to obtain their national rights. In this context, I'd recall the proverb of former Turkish President Suleiman Demirel when he said famous word: «if an individual Kurdish get his national rights in South Africa We'll oppose this right» and this phrase sums up the essence of Turkish politics, and we know that the National Council comprises 70% of the different movements who agreed the Terms and agendas of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan, in particular, their acceptance of Adana Agreement signed by the Syrian regime with Turkey in 1998.

The Kurdish leader said that the statements made by the former Director of the Muslim Brotherhood Bayanouni when he described the Kurdistan Workers' Party as a «terrorist» this is a obvious evidence of what we said about the Turkish incursion into the working program of the National Council. As well as he surprised and wondered: «What is the relationship of Bayanouni with PKK and the Kurds in Turkey? Why he launched these accusations in this critical time?

Muslim criticized the Council political heterogeneity and its vague vision in the absence of unified political thinking, and arises of differences within them. It seems that the council is going to its disintegration way very soon, however he considered that the National Council is an integral part of the Syrian opposition.

Muslim assured that his party is standing side by side to the National Coordinating Body, which directly supports the revolution and the protests movement. Adding that they are moving their popular masses to demonstrate on a daily basis in all areas where there are Kurds. And he continued, « Clearly and explicitly we condemn the Baath authoritarian ruler and we call for the fall of the mono Baathist regime ».


http://www.pydrojava.net/en/index.php?view=article&catid=34%3Anews&id=93%3Awe-clearly-and-openly-condemn-the-baath-authoritarian-ruler-and-we-call-for-the-fall-of-this-mono-ba&tmpl=component&print=1&layout=default&page=&option=com_content&Itemid=53


They tried to play both sides and remain neutral. Then didn't work out well since the FSA view their refusal to join them as a criminal act, and have declared war on them while Al-Qusayr was being liberated(on May 26, over 20 rebel gangs issued an official declaration of war on YPG, including all the leading Salafi outfits, and the rest of the rebel gangs declared war on the YPG in the following days and weeks). Following this, the Kurds have been signing alliances with the SAA and pro-government citizens's militias, in order to lift the sieges of various Kurd towns and villages being attacked by the rebels. In Ifreen(population 500,000) for example, very intense battles between Kurd/SAA and rebel gangs have been occurring. They are dozens of videos of this online, like:
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=6f7_1371261566


Aleppo (published 23 May 2013) - According to YPGs press secretary, 12 soldiers of the Syrian regime forces were killed in the neighbourhood of Sheik Al Maqsoud. The statement of YPG, which was issued on Saturday, declared that YPG has blocked the Syrian regime forces attempt to enter the neighbourhood.

http://pydinfo.com/field-reports/141-on-the-ground-activities-in-western-kurdistan

All that video proves is that the YPG fights the FSA, something I've never said they didn't -- in fight, quite the contrary.


These are the same shitheads that reported the FSA's massacre in Houla, which targeted pro-government Alawites(and even wiped out the entire family of a prominent pro-Assad Syrian MP) as a "shabiha atrocity".

Here's a list of fallacies:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies
So you can use more of them.


So biased against NATO that they are reinforcing NATO's imperial ambitions in Syria. Fuck yeah.

Sigh. I never said NATO, you'll do anything to skew things in your favour. Wikipedia:

Amnesty reports disproportionately on relatively more democratic and open countries,[53] arguing that its intention is not to produce a range of reports which statistically represents the world's human rights abuses, but rather to apply the pressure of public opinion to encourage improvements. The demonstration effect of the behaviour of both key Western governments and major non-Western states is an important factor: as one former Amnesty Secretary-General pointed out, "for many countries and a large number of people, the United States is a model," and according to one Amnesty manager, "large countries influence small countries."[7] In addition, with the end of the Cold War, Amnesty felt that a greater emphasis on human rights in the North was needed to improve its credibility with its Southern critics by demonstrating its willingness to report on human rights issues in a truly global manner.[7]
According to one academic study, as a result of these considerations the frequency of Amnesty's reports is influenced by a number of factors, besides the frequency and severity of human rights abuses. For example, Amnesty reports significantly more (than predicted by human rights abuses) on more economically powerful states; and on countries which receive US military aid, on the basis that this Western complicity in abuses increases the likelihood of public pressure being able to make a difference.[7] In addition, around 1993–94, Amnesty consciously developed its media relations, producing fewer background reports and more press releases, to increase the impact of its reports. Press releases are partly driven by news coverage, to use existing news coverage as leverage to discuss Amnesty's human rights concerns. This increases Amnesty's focus on the countries the media is more interested in.[7]
Despite these explanations, Amnesty has been vocal in regards to Israel. Amnesty, for example, helped popularize the concept of "Israeli apartheid"[54][55] In 2010, the head of Amnesty's Finnish branch, Frank Johansson, called Israel a "scum state,"[56] and in 2011 a top Amnesty UK official, Kristyan Benedict, said Israel, "along with Burma North Korea, Iran and Sudan," was one of the "stupid dictatorial regimes who abuse peoples’ basic universal rights."[57][58]
Amnesty's country focus is similar to that of some other comparable NGOs, notably Human Rights Watch: between 1991 and 2000, Amnesty and HRW shared eight of ten countries in their "top ten" (by Amnesty press releases; 7 for Amnesty reports).[7] In addition, six of the 10 countries most reported on by Human Rights Watch in the 1990s also made The Economist's and Newsweek's "most covered" lists during that time.[7]



It's synonymous with the West. America accounts for 40 percent of the world's military spending. NATO and her lackeys account for something like 70-80%. Non-Western imperialism is so negligible compared to Western imperialism that it's laughable.

Imperialism is more than than military spending. Russia, China, and Iran all back the ba'athist regime in an imperialistic fashion.


You with your stupid lies again. Hezbollah has accepted a secular government in Lebanon for decades now. Since the 1990s. 20 years now. It's not the 1980s anymore.

Oh right, in the same way the FSA claims to be secular I'm sure. :rolleyes:
Hezbollah is an Islamic fundamentalist group explicitly calling for the establishment of an Islamic government based upon a Guardianship of the Islamic Jurists, one that is "democratically" (by majority) accepted would not make it any less of an Islamic state. You have the be absolutely mental to consider this in any way "secular". They only accept "secularism" insofar they have not yet achieved a majority of support for the Islamic state they advocate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ideology_of_Hezbollah

Their program states:

Allah has also made it intolerable for Muslims to participate in an unjust regime, unjust for you and for us, in a regime which is not predicated upon the prescriptions (ahkam) of religion and upon the basis of the Law (the Shari’a) as laid down by Muhammad, the Seal of the Prophets.



Except, that never happened.



The Kurdish Rebellion in Syria: Toward Irreversible Liberation
by Rozh Ahmad
The Kurds in Syria, the country's largest ethnic minority, number an estimated three million. Despite having stayed neutral amid the civil war, they now control most of Syria's Kurdish north they claim they have "liberated" from the Ba'athist regime and self-govern independently of the rebel Free Syrian Army (FSA). Although many Kurds still fear "re-occupation" of their "liberated" areas by the Syrian army as the army maintains presence in some of them, Syrian Kurdish leaders are confident that their recent political achievement is now "irreversible."

Mass anti-Assad protests took place in Syria's Kurdish north on July 17th, 2012. The protests gave a 48-hour ultimatum to the forces of the Ba'athist regime: "Either defect from this regime or withdraw peacefully -- otherwise, you will be forced to leave against your will." By July 21st, 2012 the Ba'athist forces evacuated from most parts of the Syrian Kurdish region.

Throughout the Ba'athist rule, Kurds have faced state racism, systematic displacement, and denial of their identity. The Kurdish language was banned at schools and other public places shortly after the Ba'ath Party took power in March 1963. Kurds weren't even allowed to work or pursue education unless they agreed to obtain Syrian-Arab ID cards. The names of Kurdish cities, towns, and villages were also altered to Arabic ones as the Ba'athist state declared Syria as an Arab-only nation. Now, however, apart from the Syrian Kurdish capital city of Qamishlou situated in al-Hasaka province, where the regime's vast forces still extensively operate, Kurds control the rest of Syria's northern cities and towns, which they call the "Kurdistan region of Syria" or "Western Kurdistan" (considered part of "greater Kurdistan").

http://mrzine.monthlyreview.org/2013/ahmad230113p.html


Before the Syrian revolution such meetings were unthinkable. "For 30 years we Syrian Kurds have been fighting for our rights," Abdullah says. "That's why so many of our friends have been arrested and tortured to death by the regime." The ruling Baath Party denied the Kurds all basic rights. In the 1960s, 20 percent of the two million Kurds in Syria had their citizenship revoked.

http://www.dw.de/a-kurdish-spring-in-syria/a-16828129

The Ba'athist regime was not responsible, contrary to my earlier claim, for the denaturalisation of Syrian Kurds. However, the actions of the regime do suggest support for the denaturalisation.

Relations between the Syrian state and its Kurdish minority were fraught even before the current regime came to power in the aftermath of the 1963 Baathist takeover. In 1962, the authorities used census data from the al-Jazeera region (the area between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers) in the north east to strip approximately 120,000 Kurds of their Syrian citizenship, claiming they were illegal immigrants from Turkey.24 These stateless Kurds and their descendants today are estimated at roughly
300,000, 15 per cent of the country’s estimated two million Kurds.

Cast as an Arab nationalist action to prevent the settlement of non-Arab groups in the province, the 1962 census and subsequent de-naturalisation of Kurds in reality served primarily to protect large landowners


The Kurds’ status remained essentially unchanged under Hafez Assad’s and Bashar Assad’s rule. Despite acknowledging the problems associated with the 1962 census, Bashar failed for years to take steps toward naturalising either the ajaneb or the
maktumin. As previously described by Crisis Group, Kurds also suffered from the regime’s enduring and glaring neglect of north-eastern Syria, an area particularly rich in resources but treated like a milk cow by central authorities.3

Syria used to make Kurds perform their military service, give them citizenship ID cards when they joined the military and
then take those ID cards away when they finished their service.


More recently, in 2008, the government added to a long list of Kurdish grievances legislation that restricts property ownership, transfer and other land rights in border regions, in effect denying even Kurds in such areas who enjoyed citizenship the right to own real property

p. 6: http://www.crisisgroup.org/~/media/Files/Middle%20East%20North%20Africa/Iraq%20Syria%20Lebanon/Syria/136-syrias-kurds-a-struggle-within-a-struggle.pdf



If they didn't you wouldn't have had, parallel to anti-Assad demonstrations of 10,000 people, pro-Assad demonstrations of 100,000 people. Are you so naive to believe that the Assad government would have survived for almost 3 years if it weren't supported by the Syrian government? The most powerful, influential and wealthy powers in the world and in the region are actively fighting against Assad, spending billions of dollars on this proxy war. Fuck, Saudi Arabia is importing bus loads of convicts from their prisons to fight in Syria, they are that fucking desperate to overthrow the Syrian government.

Yes, dictatorships can survive on 20-30% of popular support. Most do. In Greece, the largest demonstrations were held by the Communist Party, yet they only won 4% of the votes. Demonstrations are not a sound indicator. And there are no reliable statistics that suggest how much support Assad has. There's one article about a NATO survey, but there's no actual NATO survey.


What is "Islamic fundamentalism"? Please, spare me the Western propaganda terms. Hezbollah doesn't even demand Shariah law in Lebanon.

They do actually, under the condition that the majority accepts it.


Stop being a shithead for a few hours and learn at least a few things about the intricacies of Lebanese politics. Hezbollah began as a hardcore Islamic movement in the 1980s, but that swiftly changed by the 1990s. These days Hezbollah's focus is on Arab nationalism, anti-colonialism, anti-Zionism and social welfare and social justice issues.

I advice you to do the same. I'm almost 100% confident I know more about Hezbollah than you, or virtually any member of this forum for that matter as I've read about them extensively. The reason for this shift is because there is not yet a majority to accept the Islamic state advocated by Hezbollah, however, their aim of establishing such an Islamic state remains the same.


You can repeat that term a million times, but that doesn't change the fact that "shabiha" is just a boogey man invented by the cannibals

This is beyond idiotic. Everyone who opposes the Syrian regime is a cannibal and eye witnesses are all cannibals. I mean even if you oppose the FSA and support the regime, can you at least be reasonable and accept that cannibalism may not be ubiquitous amongst the opposition? Thank you very much.


Armed civilians that try to protect their wives and children and homes from pillaging, raping and cannibalizing Salafi scum are "armed thugs"? Can you show me evidence of this? Not really. On the other hand, the rebels proudly post their atrocities on the internet. Their beheadings, summary executions of civilians, their child soldiers, their cannibalism.

No I never said that. Misrepresenting things to suit your irrational support of an imperialist-backed, racist, capitalist dictator with a history of oppression seems to be your thing.


And yes, the Syrian Army has shown nothing but restraint and respect for the Syrian people.

You're delusional. I've also shown you evidence to the contrary, which you reject because it is inconvenient.


They are, after all, Syrian people themselves, not Saudi-hired Salafis. Why would they disrespect themselves? The army, after all, is a revolutionary institution. Remind me again, who was it that conducted the October Revolution? Russian soldiers and sailors.

You really can't think of an answer? Why would Pinochet kill his own people? Or Hitler, or Stalin, or Kim Jung Il, or Khan, or Deng, or any murderous dictator... You really can't think of any reason?

There's also this:


The Syrian military is offering weapons to Christian and Armenian communities in cities (especially Aleppo) being fought over. If the minorities will form self-defense militias and keep rebels out, the army will not fire artillery at those neighborhoods.
http://www.strategypage.com/qnd/syria/articles/20120914.aspx

So neighbourhoods that host rebels are 'indiscriminately' bombed, while pro-Assad neighbourhoods are not.

And the bourgeois army is a revolutionary institution now? Really? Can you at least stop pretending to be a Marxist-Leninist and out yourself as a Ba'athist? And what logic, because soldiers participated in the Russian revolution it makes it revolutionary. By the same token, police is revolutionary and the army might as well be reactionary (Nazi-Germany, Spanish Civil War, Chile, military juntas in Greece, Brazil, etc.).


The Salafis want to commit genocide against Alawites, Christians and now Kurds and they want to abolish the secular system of government and replace it with a cleric-lead Caliphate subjugated to the will of the Gulf Monarchies and NATO imperialists. The Syrian Government's role in this mess is to prevent this, maintain secularism and prevent genocide. I'm not ignoring context at all. In a battle between the bourgeoisie and Salafi savages, there is only one camp whose side you can take.

Your misunderstanding the context of Marx' supporting the bourgeoisie, not in this regard. Well I suppose if your worldview is so blindsided, black and white, that you deflect any negative about the regime you support and generalise anything negative about the opposition, it makes sense.

But to those who appreciate and acknowledge the complexity of the situation, don't make irrational and unsubstanitated generalisations, the only feasible thing to do is act on class lines: against Islamism, against ba'athism.

[Manar]

So a Marxist has to unthinkingly do as Marx said? I thought you were meant to be "scientific socialists". Is not the rampant appeals to authority in contradiction to this? If science was about appeals to authority quantum mechanics would be denied at every turn.
Yes, the most authoritative figure in Marxism is Karl Marx himself. What a great fucking discovery.

[Tim Cornelis]

Yes, the most authoritative figure in Marxism is Karl Marx himself. What a great fucking discovery.

An appeal to authority is unscientific. Marxism is a method, not reiterating Marx. It's not about Marx being "authoritative."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_authority

[Turinbaar]

http://www.law.yale.edu/rcw/rcw/jurisdictions/asw/syrianarabrep/syria_constitution.htm

Syria Constitution

Article 3 [Islam]
*
(1) The religion of the President of the Republic has to be Islam.
(2) Islamic jurisprudence is a main source of legislation.

Manar can you explain this?

[khad]

http://www.law.yale.edu/rcw/rcw/jurisdictions/asw/syrianarabrep/syria_constitution.htm

Syria Constitution

Article 3 [Islam]
*
(1) The religion of the President of the Republic has to be Islam.
(2) Islamic jurisprudence is a main source of legislation.

Manar can you explain this?
Simple, actually. Last time they tried to reform this under President Hafez Assad, the Muslim Brotherhood started a war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Syria#Origins


In 1971, General Hafez al-Assad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hafez_al-Assad), an Alawite, seized power; in 1973 violent demonstrations broke out again in response to a proposed constitution that did not require the president to be a Muslim (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim). Syria's intervention in the Lebanese civil war (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanese_civil_war) in 1976 on the side of the Maronites (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maronite) sparked renewed agitation in Syria, and assassinations began to target members of the Syrian government and prominent Alawites; the Muslim Brotherhood later claimed responsibility for most of these.

Hey, the state is caving to popular demands. Isn't that what you people want?

[Turinbaar]

Simple, actually. Last time they tried to reform this under President Hafez Assad, the Muslim Brotherhood started a war.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Muslim_Brotherhood_in_Syria#Origins



Hey, the state is caving to popular demands. Isn't that what you people want?

Syria's crushing of the Brotherhood was done while befriending the newly established Islamic Republic of Iran, which better explains than "popular demand" why they didn't pursue further reforms after the rebellion was over.

Also did those reforms ever include abolition of Islamic Jurisprudence as the basis of legislation? Has there ever been such an attempt?

[khad]

Syria's crushing of the Brotherhood was done while befriending the newly established Islamic Republic of Iran, which better explains than "popular demand" why they didn't pursue further reforms after the rebellion was over.

Also did those reforms ever include abolition of Islamic Jurisprudence as the basis of legislation? Has there ever been such an attempt?
Right, and Hezbollah calls for an explicitly Muslim executive in Lebanon (and here's a hint for those who are too thickheaded to detect the sarcasm: they don't) because they too are puppets who have no autonomy from their Iranian masters.

You really give the the Elders of Pars way too much credit.

[Ismail]

Syria's crushing of the Brotherhood was done while befriending the newly established Islamic Republic of Iran,I don't see what that has to do with anything. The Muslim Brotherhood is Sunni, the Islamic Republic is Shia, and Iraq was invading the latter. Iraqi-Syrian relations were never good, to the extent that Syria joined the US coalition against Iraq during the Gulf War.

Isn't it obvious that, when compared to the opposition, the Syrian government is basically secular, led by a party with a secular ideology? After 1991 Saddam started showing off his Muslim faith to gain sympathy among the populace as well, but no one in the West brought it.

[Tim Cornelis]

Right, and Hezbollah calls for an explicitly Muslim executive in Lebanon (and here's a hint for those who are too thickheaded to detect the sarcasm: they don't) because they too are puppets who have no autonomy from their Iranian masters.

You really give the the Elders of Pars way too much credit.

What do you mean by "Muslim Executive"? Does Hezbollah call for the abolition of the confessional-sectarian political system? Yes it does. This would make the executive branch entirely open to muslim occupation (whereas now only the Prime Minister is Muslim). And furthermore, they wish to establish an Islamic Republic once the population is willing to accept it, thus meaning it desires for the executive branch to be Islamic/Muslim. But I don't see how this pertains to your analogy.

[Ismail]

Does Hezbollah call for the abolition of the confessional-sectarian political system? Yes it does. This would make the executive branch entirely open to muslim occupation (whereas now only the Prime Minister is Muslim).You make it sound like the Lebanese government actually being representative of demographics is a bad thing.

[Devrim]

You make it sound like the Lebanese government actually being representative of demographics is a bad thing.

Not really wanting to get into this argument, but you do know what demographics the Lebanese state is based on, don't you?

It is based on the figures from the last census, which is all well and good until you realize when the last census was carried out.

Devrim

[Tim Cornelis]

You make it sound like the Lebanese government actually being representative of demographics is a bad thing.

How? I'm not stating my opinion on it, I'm merely reiterating Hezbollah's and Nasrallah's stance. In the 1992, 1996, 2000 programs of Hezbollah, they called for the abolition of the confessional sectarian system and Nasrallah explained in 2001 that this is to be done by first abolishing it in mind (de facto) prior to abolishing it in text (de jure).

[Ismail]

Not really wanting to get into this argument, but you do know what demographics the Lebanese state is based on, don't you?

It is based on the figures from the last census, which is all well and good until you realize when the last census was carried out.

DevrimNigeria's census-taking is also fraught with political implications, as are other states. I don't see how this justifies having a system which is based on an untenable compromise to begin with. If a minority can only feel adequately protected when it's guaranteed one of the two most important national posts then something's inherently wrong.

[Devrim]

Nigeria's census-taking is also fraught with political implications, as are other states. I don't see how this justifies having a system which is based on an untenable compromise to begin with.

I don't justify the Lebanese system. I was merely bringing up the details as I thought they might be of interest. There hasn't been a census in Lebanon since 1932. The division of political powers is based upon that census, which does not acurately reflect the demographics on the ground today. Of course Hezbollah calls for the abolition of this system as the group that has grown the most over the last 81 years when it has not been politically expedient to take a census has been Shia Muslims. Basically the current system descriminates against them.

Devrim

[Devrim]

Yeaaah ! I should hate the Army which protects my people down there right? :rolleyes:

Better support the FSA, which are basically the same people who burned us down 1993 in Sivas.

Just while I am pointing out some facts, I don't know if you are aware of it, but the Alevi in Turkey, and the Alawites in Syria are different religious groups. In the Turkish language they have the same name. Few of them exist in Turkey, mostly around Hatay, which as you know was once part of Syria. Generally in Turkish they are called 'Arap Aleviler' to differentiate.

Devrim

[Turinbaar]

You really give the the Elders of Pars way too much credit.

No I don't. Puppetry isn't required for regime to conclude that retaining it's religious requirements of office and islamic basis for legislation is beneficial in maintaining a relationship with a Shia theocracy amidst regional sectarian strife against sunni enemies.


Isn't it obvious that, when compared to the opposition, the Syrian government is basically secular, led by a party with a secular ideology?

No. I refer you again to Article Three of their constitution, and the fact that it remains relatively unaltered despite the abortive and abandoned attempt at reform mentioned by Khad.

[Zaza]

Just while I am pointing out some facts, I don't know if you are aware of it, but the Alevi in Turkey, and the Alawites in Syria are different religious groups. In the Turkish language they have the same name. Few of them exist in Turkey, mostly around Hatay, which as you know was once part of Syria. Generally in Turkish they are called 'Arap Aleviler' to differentiate.

Devrim

I am well aware of the difference between the Alawis and the Alevis. Doesn't change the fact that alot of Alevis are in Syria.

But since when do they make a difference between Alawis and Alevis? Alot of people don't see one between shiites and Alevis as well.

[Devrim]

I am well aware of the difference between the Alawis and the Alevis. Doesn't change the fact that alot of Alevis are in Syria.

But since when do they make a difference between Alawis and Alevis? Alot of people don't see one between shiites and Alevis as well.

I am pretty sure that there aren't any Alevi in Syria. I have never heard of them being there. Maybe I am terribly misinformed, but I think not.

Of course, there are many who look on all these sort of groups as the same, and I am sure that many of the rebels in Syria wouldn't differentiate before murder different sort of 'exagerators'.

Devrim

[Zaza]

I am pretty sure that there aren't any Alevi in Syria. I have never heard of them being there. Maybe I am terribly misinformed, but I think not.

Of course, there are many who look on all these sort of groups as the same, and I am sure that many of the rebels in Syria wouldn't differentiate before murder different sort of 'exagerators'.

Devrim

There surely are. But most of them fled already for sure, as the rest of the millions reported.

[Devrim]

There surely are. But most of them fled already for sure, as the rest of the millions reported.

Could you find some reference to it, English, Turkish or even Arabic would all be fine. I have never heard of Alevis in Syria, and I actually spent a couple of days about six months ago trying to workout the exact ethnic sectarian population distribution for an article. If you are right then I am very wrong.

English Wiki for example says this on Alevis:
Alevism (Alevîlik) is a religious group combining Anatolian folk Shi'ism with Sufi elements such as those of the Bektashi tariqa. Believers live almost entirely in Turkey, with minorities in Bulgaria, Cyprus, Crimea, Greece, Tatarstan and the Turkish Diaspora. Alevis are among larger Turkish, Turkmen, Tatar, Azeri, Zaza and Kurdish sub-ethnic communities.


Devrim

[Ismail]

No. I refer you again to Article Three of their constitution, and the fact that it remains relatively unaltered despite the abortive and abandoned attempt at reform mentioned by Khad.So if Article 3 were removed/amended then the character of the conflict will suddenly change?

The 1987 Constitution of Afghanistan: "The sacred religion of Islam is the religion of Afghanistan. In the Republic of Afghanistan no law shall run counter to the principles of the sacred religion of Islam and other values enshrined in this Constitution." "When no explicit provision exists in the law, the court shall, following the provisions of the Shariat of Islam, render a decision that secures justice in the best possible way."

Somehow the government was still able to be led by a self-proclaimed Marxist-Leninist party, retained equality for women, and other examples demonstrating a basically secular leadership. This is why it is dumb to treat constitutions as superior to actual practice or to try and equate a Syrian Ba'athist interpretation of Islam and Islamic law with that of, say, Al-Nusra, which makes about as much sense as comparing the PDPA to Hezb-e-Islami because Najibullah appealed for national unity via praying on TV.

[Zaza]

Could you find some reference to it, English, Turkish or even Arabic would all be fine. I have never heard of Alevis in Syria, and I actually spent a couple of days about six months ago trying to workout the exact ethnic sectarian population distribution for an article. If you are right then I am very wrong.

English Wiki for example says this on Alevis:

Devrim

I actually have no link I could provide, because I didn't read it in the internet.
I am just aware of that Alevis also live there in Syria.
Even according to my father. He says that some lolanlis are living in Syria, which are basically Alevis.

[Turinbaar]

So if Article 3 were removed/amended then the character of the conflict will suddenly change?
I understand your point about practice versus written constitutions, which is why your analogy fails. Had they succeeded, the practice of the afghan communists would have surely included the abolition of those constitutional provisions. The Baath tried once, and exchanged that course for an alliance with the regional Shia sectarian powers, which it is growing more dependent on as more Hezbollah and Iranian troops enter the fray.

[Ismail]

I understand your point about practice versus written constitutions, which is why your analogy fails. Had they succeeded, the practice of the afghan communists would have surely included the abolition of those constitutional provisions. The Baath tried once, and exchanged that course for an alliance with the regional Shia sectarian powers, which it is growing more dependent on as more Hezbollah and Iranian troops enter the fray.I'm asking why you're bringing up Article 3 to begin with, and why you're seemingly attempting to equivocate the Syrian Ba'athists with the rebels as far as attitude on religion goes.

Also if this is valid:

Maybe if Assad fucked off when the people rose up peacefully those damned "wahabist terrorists" never became a factor.Then I don't see why someone couldn't say "maybe if the USA and Co. weren't trying to prolong the rebellion in order to topple al-Assad he would have little need to request assistance from Iran and Hezbollah."

[Turinbaar]

I'm asking why you're bringing up Article 3 to begin with, and why you're seemingly attempting to equivocate the Syrian Ba'athists with the rebels as far as attitude on religion goes.

I bring it up because Manar claimed the regime is secular, which it is not. Both the written provision and the practice prove this fact.