Are the Brazilian people primed for an uprising? [Archive]

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Eleutheromaniac

15th June 2013, 13:01

The Jay

15th June 2013, 13:07

That's interesting. I don't know much about the situation in Brazil. I'll sniff around and be back later.

Kalinin's Facial Hair

15th June 2013, 13:31

The country-wide protests/riots started because of a raise in the bus fare. Some cities such as Goiânia barred the raise. Now it is escalating in São Paulo (where the police is being less than friendly, as usual) with an aggravating: both the Governor and the Mayor, members respectively of the sworn enemies PSDB (Party of Brazilian Social Democracy, don't let the name fool you) and of PT (Workers' Party, again just the name), are against what they call vandalism and chaos. Rio and other cities are starting as well.

On the other hand, there are these Popular Committees of the Cup (Comitês Populares da Copa) formed by the population in which parties and militants in general participate. Anything Cup related (expulsion of the population who live nearby the stadiums, a law, not yet enacted, that classifies as terrorism any protest during the Cup, etc etc). Don't know much about them.

It is said that the protest transcended the mere raises and some protesters surely are trying to 'turn Brazil into Turkey' ('Acabou o amor, isso aqui vai virar a Turquia!', some chant). Nevertheless the thousands out in the streets every two days, people don't seem to be prime for an uprising. The main movement behind the protests is the MPL (Movimento Passe Livre, something like Free Pass Movement) with the participation of parties, anarchists (who actually are a majority in the MPL), regular students and workers.

Even though police is being brutal as shit (even journalists from bourgeois newspapers were beaten by 8 cops at a time, arrested and one was hit by a rubber bullet in the eye; he is most likely losing his sight), there is no uprising without the working class. I mean, the majority is formed by uni students, high school students and young workers. The bulk of the working class, however, don't seem to be out there. On the contrary, the country's biggest union is controlled by the federal government.

I actually hope there is no uprising, for the working class lacks organization to handle such a big task.

But what do I know? Things may change quick, and 'there are weeks when decades happen'.

Kalinin's Facial Hair

15th June 2013, 13:48

In case you are interested in any videos...

They're chanting "No violence!" to the police. Yeah, that worked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-7uuwuTecUPig breaks the glass of his own car to blame you know who

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i0XucCXXl3wReporter being beaten.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=043RmwFweroLonger video

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MWHYn8Mfchk&feature=youtu.beThis fucking genius right here. I love him, whoever he is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmcLqlFk6Ac

Yeah, like I knew how to post videos. If some mod could put that on spoilers, it would be better, I guess.

Tim Cornelis

15th June 2013, 14:12

A 2009 poll indicating the social views of the Brazilian urban population:

Twenty years after the fall of the Berlin Wall, a new BBC World Service global poll finds that dissatisfaction with free market capitalism is widespread, with an average of only 11% across 27 countries saying that it works well and that greater regulation is not a good idea.

In only two countries do more than one in five feel that capitalism works well as it stands—the US (25%) and Pakistan (21%).

The most common view is that free market capitalism has problems that can be addressed through regulation and reform—a view held by an average of 51% of more than 29,000 people polled by GlobeScan/PIPA.

An average of 23% feel that capitalism is fatally flawed, and a new economic system is needed—including 43% in France, 38% in Mexico, 35% in Brazil and 31% in Ukraine.

Furthermore, majorities would like their government to be more active in owning or directly controlling their country’s major industries in 15 of the 27 countries. This view is particularly widely held in countries of the former Soviet states of Russia (77%), and Ukraine (75%), but also Brazil (64%), Indonesia (65%), and France (57%).
...
Latin Americans are particularly enthusiastic about a more active role for government in running the economy, with around nine in ten supporting more redistribution of wealth in Mexico (92%), Chile (91%), and Brazil (89%). Support for redistributing wealth more evenly is lowest in Turkey (9 %)—but those who do not support a greater role for government in this area are also in the majority in India (60%), Pakistan (66%), Poland (61%), and the US (59%).
...
The proportions wanting to see government be more active in regulating business are highest in Brazil (87%), Chile (84%), France (76%), Spain (73%), China (71%), and Russia (68%). Only in Turkey (71%), does a majority think their government should do less to regulate business.

These polls are obviously flawed as the definitions of capitalism and free markets widely differ. If 43% of the French population really believed capitalism was fatally flawed we would assume this to be reflected in elections, but the far-left Left Front merely received 11% of the votes, and the Workers' Struggle and the New Anticapitalist Party an additional 1% or so. However, they are still useful insofar to get a grip of the social views of a population. This poll indicates that Turkey is a very right-wing society and a leftist let alone socialist revolt is unlikely.

Paul Pott

15th June 2013, 14:35

After the Turkey uprising, it's definitely possible. The difference is that the Brazilian government would probably recognize the possibility of a greater social explosion and respond by giving concessions, whereas Erdogan still seems to think most of Turkey will come out to support him someday, and refuses anything to the protesters.

Sasha

15th June 2013, 14:53

One of the slogans during riots apperently was "peace is over, Istanbul is here" :grin:

Paul Pott

15th June 2013, 15:28

A 2009 poll indicating the social views of the Brazilian urban population:

These polls are obviously flawed as the definitions of capitalism and free markets widely differ. If 43% of the French population really believed capitalism was fatally flawed we would assume this to be reflected in elections, but the far-left Left Front merely received 11% of the votes, and the Workers' Struggle and the New Anticapitalist Party an additional 1% or so. However, they are still useful insofar to get a grip of the social views of a population. This poll indicates that Turkey is a very right-wing society and a leftist let alone socialist revolt is unlikely.

Polls like this are notoriously meaningless (see: majority of US youth have a positive view of socialism), and the polls in Turkey and India were likely skewed toward the upper classes.

LuÃs Henrique

16th June 2013, 14:18

Brazil has one of the world's largest economies and the largest in South America. Their per capita GDP by PPP is incredibly low for such a large economy, and poverty creates an atmosphere where violence is very prominent. While Brazil's infrastructure is in shambles, the government is squandering money on stadiums for the FIFA World Cup next year. The world doesn't need another Tlatelolco Massacre, but I definitely see some large protests against the Cup tournament. With what's been happening in Turkey, etc., are the Brazilian pessoas ready to stand up? If anyone has more details, please let me know.

Well, we are in the midst of a deep and worldwide crisis of capital, so any conjuncture is fluid; so any attempt to predict anything in the long term is bogus. And Brazil is a capitalist society, so the basic requisite for a socialist revolution is evidently fulfilled.

But generalities apart, it doesn't look as something that will happen immediately, or as a consequence of the protests against bus ticket rising, or their suppressing by the police. Much less from protests against football tournaments.

The Brazilian police, like in the United States, are state-level corporations; there is a Federal Police, but it is not normally used in repression against street demonstrations. The immediate responsible for police actions, consequently, are the state governors, not the federal government. Bus ticket fares are usually municipal responsibilities. This precludes protests against bus ticket fares from being directly directed against federal government (and the fact that some of the government parties, including the President's party, take active part in those protests, makes that even more difficult). Similarly, it is difficult to pin the police brutality in São Paulo and Rio de Janeiro into the federal government's responsibility (again, moreso because the violence is going to be condemned in strong terms by the PT, and perhaps even by federal government).

The protests against the Cup are of a different nature, and are obviously directed against Dilma and the PT; but while there certainly are legitimate popular movements that take part on them, they seem to respond to a quite un-popular logic: that of austerity and spending cuts.

What creates a contorted situation is that while evidently the government spending on the football championships are dictated by a logic of stimulus of economic activity, the prices of tickets for the games are prohibitive for most Brazilians - especially for those who support the federal government and vote for the PT. (This explains why Dilma was booed during Brazil x Japan: among those who could pay the extorsive ticke prices, opposition supporters are certainly the majority...) This quid-pro-quo makes possible to frame austerity-ism in populist terms.

But, when things boil down, the protests against bus fares and for free tickets for students match the general disposition, both in population and government, in favour of more State intervention in economy, while the protests against the Cup run in the directly opposite way. This is the reason it is extremely unlikely they can find any common ground beyond a common rage against police violence.

(Two minor quibblings: I don't think the Brazilian infrastructure is "in shambles" (and to the extent it is, it is mostly an inheritance of previous governments), and the translation of "Brazilian people" would be "povo brasileiro", not "pessoas brasileiras"...)

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

16th June 2013, 14:36

This poll indicates that Turkey is a very right-wing society and a leftist let alone socialist revolt is unlikely.

I would rather say that indicates that Turkey is a very State-dominated society, and so people see its problems as a consequence of State omnipresence rather than as a consequence of markets and inequality.

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

16th June 2013, 14:48

Even though police is being brutal as shit (even journalists from bourgeois newspapers were beaten by 8 cops at a time, arrested and one was hit by a rubber bullet in the eye;

Which puts the bourgeois press in direct collision against their beloved São Paulo government.

he is most likely losing his sight), there is no uprising without the working class.

He is a she, and her eye seems to be out of danger now.

I mean, the majority is formed by uni students, high school students and young workers. The bulk of the working class, however, don't seem to be out there. On the contrary, the country's biggest union is controlled by the federal government.

Since it is a movement for free bus tickets for students, it is quite natural that students are going to be the bulk of it.

But it is false to say that Brazil's biggest union (CUT) is "controlled by the federal government". It is controlled by its base, which elects the directive boards in democratic congresses. Yes, as of now, the CUT's directive boards are more or less aligned with the federal government, but there is no "control" at all; should the next congress elect a different direction, or even the present direction get disgruntled with the federal government, there is no way the government can force the CUT to support it.

Luís Henrique

barbelo

16th June 2013, 17:07

I actually hope there is no uprising, for the working class lacks organization to handle such a big task.

Lol, you what?
The protests are very very valid: their country is turning into an über tourist trap with shitty transport, shitty quality of life and absurd inflated prices for everything. It's time to shrug all this brazilian passivity and actually stand for something instead of soccer or carnival.
Fuck the working class.

I- as someone who can read a bit of portuguese- am following these protests from close and I'm very happy they are happening. I only think they should be more organized, i.e. why the protest in Rio was in the center of the city, a commercial region completely far from the "centers of power"? Why not in front of Guanabara palace, the governor's seat? Why not in Cidade Nova, the municipal building? Why people won't simply march in Gávea to the mayor's house?

Kalinin's Facial Hair

16th June 2013, 18:45

Lol, you what?
The protests are very very valid: their country is turning into an über tourist trap with shitty transport, shitty quality of life and absurd inflated prices for everything.
Where did I say the protests were not valid? Where did I say I'm against the protests? Where did I say anything different from what you just sad? :confused:

It's time to shrug all this brazilian passivity and actually stand for something instead of soccer or carnival."Brazilian passivity", as though Brazilians had a natural tendency of being passive. Would it be our genetics? There is no passiveness, class struggle has its ups and downs.

Fuck the working class....?

I- as someone who can read a bit of portuguese- am following these protests from close and I'm very happy they are happening.So am I.

I only think they should be more organized, i.e. why the protest in Rio was in the center of the city, a commercial region completely far from the "centers of power"? Why not in front of Guanabara palace, the governor's seat? Why not in Cidade Nova, the municipal building? Why people won't simply march in Gávea to the mayor's house?As opposed to São Paulo, where they aimed to stop the city's major avenue.

You just confirmed my point: the working class is not ready to take a major step such as an uprising.

newdayrising

16th June 2013, 18:55

Since it is a movement for free bus tickets for students, it is quite natural that students are going to be the bulk of it.

You got it completely wrong. The movement is not for "free bus tickets for students", it's for free bus fare for all.
It still has serious limitations and I'm fairly critical of it, but I feel it still can be supported on a class basis, because it's against an attack on the living standards of workers.
Even if one, as myself doesn't support or agrees with the organization leading it.

Kalinin's Facial Hair

16th June 2013, 18:56

By the way, another union, CSP-Conlutas, whose bigger wing is from the morenist PSTU, announced that metalworkers and other categories will be joining the next protest. Let's see how that turns out.

barbelo

16th June 2013, 19:11

Where did I say the protests were not valid? Where did I say I'm against the protests?

This is what you implied and it's the same shallow criticism many people direct at socialist protests. "Oh, they are just jobless, middle class students, it's nothing relevant..."
Where the fuck enters class struggle in this situation? People are not trying to overthrow the country leadership or stuff like that, they're just voicing their discontent. I bet that even some of them are by definition "rightists" (against the main dominant labor and social democratic political scene of Brazil) and should enjoy the same support as the rest of protesters.

"Brazilian passivity", as though Brazilians had a natural tendency of being passive. Would it be our genetics?Blame it on genetics, culture or in a 3 centuries old catholic ingrained mentality; brazilians are indeed passive. A german would go crazy in a month in Brazil, because it's not normal to live in a state with a bigger population than Canada (São Paulo) or Netherlands (Rio de Janeiro), yet nothing works, you wait 1 hour for the bus to a completely unreachable place, you live side by side with absurd slums, pay absurd taxes... And yet brazilians doesn't care, they just accommodate themselves and live their lifes.
I'm actually amazed that people are protesting against the bus.

You just confirmed my point: the working class is not ready to take a major step such as an uprising.Lol, you're just forcing class struggle in a completely out of place context. What you mean by uprising? I've spoken with countless, countless brazilians in my life, and not even one of the them enjoyed the idea of hosting the world coup and olympics. At least until now the protests are for expressing such opinions.

barbelo

16th June 2013, 19:22

It's amazing to read how the president thinks the country is being targeted by foreign "terrorism".
She doesn't even think the protests are reasonable and native...

http://g1.globo.com/politica/noticia/2013/06/dilma-afirma-que-brasil-e-alvo-de-terrorismo-informativo.html

LuÃs Henrique

16th June 2013, 19:27

Kalinin's Facial Hair

16th June 2013, 19:41

I really don't know what is going on here...

This is what you implied and it's the same shallow criticism many people direct at socialist protests. "Oh, they are just jobless, middle class students, it's nothing relevant..."

Are you mad? Many of them are indeed middle-class students, jobless young people and etc. Now, where on Earth have I said that it doesn't matter? Just so you know (that is, if you don't know already) there were people from Alphaville (upper strata of the petite-bourgeoisie) to Pirituba (fucking poor, violent and peripheral).

On the contrary, mate, I find it is goddamn marvelous that thousands of young people are out on the streets.

Where the fuck enters class struggle in this situation?Er... When students and workers confront the fare raise, when they confront the 'public' transport companies that make millions and millions because of something that will harm mainly the working class, i.e., they fight for the interests of the working class against the capitalists, it is class struggle.

The claims may be close (if they have not yet) to transcend the mere raise. Imagine if they start to claim the petrol (remember 'O petróleo é nosso' or, more recently, 'O petróleo tem que ser nosso'?). But that is just speculation.

People are not trying to overthrow the country leadership or stuff like that, they're just voicing their discontent.An all-out civil war is not the only way class-struggle manifests.

I bet that even some of them are by definition "rightists" (against the main dominant labor and social democratic political scene of Brazil) and should enjoy the same support as the rest of protesters.Some of them are indeed rightists. They're, ironically, siding with the proletariat, whom, unfortunately, is not out there yet.

Blame it on genetics, culture or in a 3 centuries old catholic ingrained mentality; brazilians are indeed passive. A german would go crazy in a month in Brazil, because it's not normal to live in a state with a bigger population than Canada (São Paulo) or Netherlands (Rio de Janeiro), yet nothing works, you wait 1 hour for the bus to a completely unreachable place, you live side by side with absurd slums, pay absurd taxes... And yet brazilians doesn't care, they just accommodate themselves and live their lifes.No, that makes no sense whatsoever. The 'passive' Brazilian working class not 30 years ago starred massive strikes, which ended up creating PT. Last year, federal universities and institutes were on strike for months, a thing we had not seen in a long while. Workers protest on Northern Brazil, and Northeastern Brazil all the time (remeber Jirau and Belo Monte?). Landless' Workers Movement is out there, despite mistakes and all, since the 80s.

The passivity is a complete myth.

I'm actually amazed that people are protesting against the bus.You shouldn't. MPL exists for almost a decade now.

What you mean by uprising?I think here is where we're misunderstanding each other. I mean the proletariat threatening bourgeois hegemony, the bourgeois power.

I've spoken with countless, countless brazilians in my life, and not even one of the them enjoyed the idea of hosting the world coup and olympics. At least until now the protests are for expressing such opinions.Many people, me included, were discontent with that too, because we all saw what was about to come. I love football, btw.

LuÃs Henrique

16th June 2013, 19:54

Blame it on genetics, culture or in a 3 centuries old catholic ingrained mentality; brazilians are indeed passive.

Enough with this racist absurd.

A german would go crazy in a month in Brazil, because it's not normal to live in a state with a bigger population than Canada (São Paulo) or Netherlands (Rio de Janeiro), yet nothing works, you wait 1 hour for the bus to a completely unreachable place, you live side by side with absurd slums, pay absurd taxes... And yet brazilians doesn't care, they just accommodate themselves and live their lifes.

I think you are mystified by the supposed efficiency of urban services elsewhere. Sure, there are places where they are more efficient than in Brazil, but the difference is of degree, not of nature.

Shockingly, some of us don't live side by side with slums - some of us live in slums.

We evidently care, which is the reason that we regularly set buses on fire:

https://www.google.com.br/search?q=onibus+incendiado&client=opera&hs=9BJ&channel=suggest&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=TgS-UZmDOuqGyAGZxIHQCA&ved=0CAkQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=477#imgrc=_

Lol, you're just forcing class struggle in a completely out of place context. What you mean by uprising? I've spoken with countless, countless brazilians in my life, and not even one of the them enjoyed the idea of hosting the world coup and olympics. At least until now the protests are for expressing such opinions.

Certainy many, probably most, of us enjoy the idea. You may argue that this is out of disinformation, or foolishness, or whatever, but most people here like soccer, so it is natural that many support the idea of having the world cup here.

Luís Henrique

LifeIs2Short

16th June 2013, 20:20

while the protests against the Cup run in the directly opposite way.
Luís Henrique

Really though? I would imagine a lot of those protesting the Cup would like to see the money go directly into making peoples lives better. (I'm just guessing though)

La GuaneÃ±a

16th June 2013, 20:30

Really though? I would imagine a lot of those protesting the Cup would like to see the money go directly into making peoples lives better. (I'm just guessing though)

Much of the protesting done against the cup is coming from right wing anti-PT positions, and are, in most forms demagogic stuff against corruption and the bread and circus, where the welfare is the bread and the cup is the circus.

There are indeed very nice positions on it, talking about the workers getting kicked out of their homes so stuff can be built, about how football is being elitized and of the working conditions in the construction sites.

La GuaneÃ±a

16th June 2013, 20:32

And the bus fares protests in general started with very leftist arguments and rhetoric, but as they grew in number I'm noticing the rise of the anti-corruption anonymous types.

LuÃs Henrique

16th June 2013, 20:45

Really though? I would imagine a lot of those protesting the Cup would like to see the money go directly into making peoples lives better. (I'm just guessing though)

Well, yes. There are people of all kinds in such movements. I would even reckon that the leadership of anti-cup movements is earnestly leftist; but the "flavour" of the issue seems to attract pro-austerity petty-bourgeois types. It is not like the free transportation movement, that can have no other consequence except questioning the property rights of bus companies.

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

17th June 2013, 11:51

It's amazing to read how the president thinks the country is being targeted by foreign "terrorism".
She doesn't even think the protests are reasonable and native...She isn't even talking about that.

She is talking about speculative attacks on the economy, as a widespread rumour that electricity would have to be rationed. She is not speaking about the protests, either against bus fares or the football tournament. And nowhere she talks about "foreign" anything. Rather it is clear that she is pointing the finger to the (very internal) right-wing opposition.

Luís Henrique

DDR

18th June 2013, 01:47

It seems that the Brazilians have stormed the Congress

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BNADlscCcAAE0hX.jpg

XUcRSOiYyow

Paul Pott

18th June 2013, 02:35

How large are the protests right now, and what is their class basis? What is the nature of the political demands being made? Are there strikes in support of the protests right now?

La GuaneÃ±a

18th June 2013, 03:36

How large are the protests right now, and what is their class basis? What is the nature of the political demands being made? Are there strikes in support of the protests right now?

The protests are really big, some cities with more than 50 thousand people. But the struggles have taken a hard right turn, coming from bus fare raises, free pass for students and stuff like that to "anti-corruption" anomalous and general middle class whining.

I'm very concerned on how the media is using these movements to attack the Federal Government in a very dirty fasion. Allthough I am no supporter of it, having the Right-Wing use this discontempt to knock it down would be disasterous as hell.

Paul Pott

18th June 2013, 03:45

Has the right wing part of the protest overtaken the original protest?

Paul Pott

18th June 2013, 03:50

Also, to what extent is the anti-corruption populism a creature of the "social democratic" opposition party?

An article:

(Reuters) - Tens of thousands of demonstrators marched through the streets of Brazil (http://uk.reuters.com/places/brazil)'s biggest cities on Monday in a growing protest that is tapping into widespread anger at poor public services, police violence and government corruption.
The marches, organized mostly through snowballing social media campaigns, blocked streets and halted traffic in more than a half-dozen cities, including Sao Paulo, Rio de Janeiro, Belo Horizonte and Brasilia, where demonstrators swarmed past the Congress and Presidential Palace.
While peaceful, and unfolding mostly as a festive display of dissent, Monday's demonstrations were the latest in a flurry of protests over the past two weeks that have added to unease over Brazil's sluggish economy (http://uk.reuters.com/finance/economy?lc=int_mb_1001), high inflation and a spurt in violent crime.
The marches began this month with a small protest in Sao Paulo against a small increase in bus and subway fares. The demonstrations initially drew the scorn of many middle-class Brazilians after protesters vandalized storefronts, subway stations and buses on one of the city's main avenues.
But the movement quickly gained support and spread to other cities as police used heavy-handed tactics to try to quell the demonstrations. The biggest crackdown happened on Thursday in Sao Paulo when police fired rubber bullets and tear gas in clashes that injured more than 100 people, including 15 journalists, some of whom said they were deliberately targeted.
The protests have gathered pace as Brazil is hosting the football Confederation's Cup, a dry run for next year's World Cup. The government hopes these events, along with the 2016 Summer Olympics (http://www.reuters.com/london-olympics-2012), will showcase the country as an emerging power on the global stage.
Brazil is also gearing up to welcome more than 2 million visitors in July as Pope Francis makes his first foreign trip for a gathering of Catholic youth in Rio.
Contrasting the billions in public money spent on new stadiums with the shoddy state of Brazil's public services, protesters are using the Confederation's Cup as a counterpoint to amplify their concerns. The tournament got off to shaky start this weekend when police clashed with demonstrators outside stadiums at the opening matches in Brasilia and Rio.
"We shouldn't be spending public money on stadiums," said one protester in Sao Paulo who identified herself as Camila, a 32-year-old travel agent. "We don't want the Cup. We want education, hospitals, a better life for our children."
Other common grievances at Monday's marches included political corruption and the inadequate and overcrowded public transportation networks that Brazilians cope with daily.
POLICE ORDERED TO USE RESTRAINT
The harsh police reaction to last week's protests touched a nerve in Brazil, which endured two decades of political repression under a military dictatorship that ended in 1985. It has also added to doubts about whether Brazil's police forces would be ready for next year's World Cup.
Jose Vicente da Silva, a security consultant and retired police colonel, said training for the big events has focused too much on elite forces instead of the rank-and-file officers who must face the public.
The clashes, he said, "suggest that the everyday policeman in Sao Paulo has barely trained at all" in how to handle a demonstration.
The uproar following last week's crackdown prompted Sao Paulo state Governor Geraldo Alckmin, who initially described the protesters as "troublemakers" and "vandals," to order police to allow Monday's march to proceed and not to use rubber bullets.
The protests are shaping up as a major political challenge for Alckmin, a former presidential candidate, and Sao Paulo's new mayor, Fernando Haddad, a rising star in the left-leaning Workers' Party that has governed Brazil for the past decade. Both have so far insisted that the bus fare hike that sparked the protests is non-negotiable.
Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff, who has enjoyed high approval ratings since taking office in 2011, only recently began to slip in opinion polls. Although the protests have gained traction, they do not appear to reflect any broad-based collapse in her support, but Rousseff was booed at Saturday's Confederations Cup opener.
Still, the resonance of the demonstrations underscores what economists say will be a challenge for Rousseff and other Brazilian leaders in the years ahead: providing public services to meet the demands of the growing middle class.
"Voters are likely to be increasingly disgruntled on a range of public services in a lower growth environment," Christopher Garman, a political analyst at the Eurasia Group, wrote in a report.
(Additional reporting by Esteban Israel (http://uk.reuters.com/places/israel?lc=int_mb_1001) and Brian Winter.; Editing by Paulo Prada and Christopher Wilson)

MarxSchmarx

18th June 2013, 05:14

Blame it on genetics, culture or in a 3 centuries old catholic ingrained mentality; brazilians are indeed passive. A german would go crazy in a month in Brazil, because it's not normal to live in a state with a bigger population than Canada (São Paulo) or Netherlands (Rio de Janeiro), yet nothing works, you wait 1 hour for the bus to a completely unreachable place, you live side by side with absurd slums, pay absurd taxes... And yet brazilians doesn't care, they just accommodate themselves and live their lifes.
I'm actually amazed that people are protesting against the bus.

This is a verbal warning for peddling negative stereotypes and trolling. next person that pulls something like this gets an infraction.

La GuaneÃ±a

18th June 2013, 05:48

Also, to what extent is the anti-corruption populism a creature of the "social democratic" opposition party?

An article:

It is indeed, as they are basing many of their campaigns on a moralistic "anti-corruption" and ehtical platform, as if their 8 years in power were a sea of roses.

And yes, this kind of rhetoric has taken over in many cities, and it is also a fault of the MPL - Movimento Passe Livre, who organizes this mostly in São Paulo and Rio.

They are very applied to their horizontalism and ultra left stuff, so anybody with a stronger pulse ends up taking the movement in the vaccum they create.

LuÃs Henrique

20th June 2013, 19:45

Also, to what extent is the anti-corruption populism a creature of the "social democratic" opposition party?

It of course isn't. It is a widespread characteristic of Brazilian politics, especially of middle-class politics. The PSDB obviously surfs on it (when it is in the opposition, when they are in charge they are busy filling their pockets), but they didn't create it (if anything, the PT itself is more guilty of that, from the years it spent in opposition).

The 1988 constitution created control mechanisms that make it much more difficult to deviate public money, but the politicians in general haven't yet upgraded their methods of circumventing it. It results in increased public exposition of corrupt politicians, something the naive middle class individual mistakes for a growth in corruption.

The movement at this moment is quite fluid. It is certainly not a proletarian uprising (though its roots in the Free Pass movement are working class. It is also very different from the Venezolan mass demonstrations ("White Hands") of a few years ago, which were obvious covers for a coup attempt against Chávez. Sure, a few right wingers are trying hard to change its course, even trying to promote old right wing banners (death penalty, the reduction of penal age) within the movement. Feminists have also complained about the sexist behaviour of many protestors (cat calling women who appeared in windows to watch the demonstrations, for instance). And of course the press wastes its time trying to interpret and define what the movement is for.

Shortly put, the movement demonstrates an extensive crisis of representation; whatever people think about what should be done in politics, they think the politicians - government and opposition, and even the weakish "left" opposition alike (the police had to escort a few PSTU activists out from a demonstration in Brasília on Monday, lest they be beaten by the "apolitical" populace) - are not doing it well, or at all.

Of course, the violent intervention of the police - particulary, though by no means exclusively, of the paulista police - helped spread discontent and manifestations. Also of course, the extorsive prices of the tickets for the Confederation Cup caused revolt in a country where football is often the most important leisure activity of the poor, and such revolt curiously melt together with the traditional upper middle class prejudice that football is a problem because it deviates the underclass from working hard and using their minds to understand and consequently support the middle class demands and ideology.

(Extremely interesting what was often reported, about people shouting demands against the Cup coming into places where public TV sets were showing the games, and then quickly sliding from protesting the Cup to watching the game...)

Besides that, inflation has soared for the last two or three months, and the quick growth of the economy in 2009-2011 stalled (though the country is by no means in a situation of recession similar to that of Europe or the Middle East, the contrast between a strongly growing Brazil and a receding world has been obviously blurred). The opposition, besides, had moved to try and put the government on checkmate on "morality issues" (they passed an "Unborn Statute" through one of the House commissions two weeks ago, which, though quite defanged by parliamentary debate, still points to a retrocess on reproductive issues, and this week they managed to pass through other of the House commissions a law project that, quite irregularly, forbids the Federal Council of Psychology from characterising the offer of psychologic counsel aiming to revert homosexuality as scientifically and clinically unsound and ethically unnacceptable). And to that end they have been mobilising their base, particularly the Pentecostal faithful (on the day the Unborn Statute passed the Tax and Finance House commission, for instance, they managed to put a mob of some 40,000 people on the lane in front of Congress, to put pressure on representatives).

The President of the Republic, meanwhile, adopted a line of "the demonstrations show the strength our democracy, and we are not afraid of them", that has inhibited state governments from repeating the display of brutality of the first days. (So whatever you read about Dilma conflating the demonstrations with terrorism is bogus) And the main Central Union, the CUT, is calling "Red" demonstrations to thwart the movement to the left and from party politics into demanding material gains for the working class.

We will have to see what comes out of this - but I fear, or perhaps hope, it is something quite different from what the sundry political actors - government, press, opposition, political parties, unions, the right, the left, etc. - expect...

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

20th June 2013, 19:55

I really haven't the time or patience to translate it, but this blog (http://escrevalolaescreva.blogspot.com.br/2013/06/visoes-diferentes-dos-muitos-protestos.html?showComment=1371610404265#comment-c4543919180677717743) (by feminist activist Lola Aronovich) makes a nice survey of what is happening on what people are seeing in the movement, and how. (the comments are rather interesting too, ranging from the far right to the far left, and showing perplexity in all the quarters of the political spectrum). The pictures are also very interesting. Those who are interested in the Brazilian situation, and have a basic knowledge of Portuguese or Spanish should have a look at it.

The idea that Brazil "woke" last weekend is a point of contention, and indeed one of the most beautiful pics of the movement is this one:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-VcDfKV7KvOQ/UcC7ETHo6OI/AAAAAAAA8U0/opsMO7YrJuw/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+vc+acordou+agora+a+periferia+nun ca+dormiu.png

The poster reads, "You woke just now; the 'periphery' never slept".

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

20th June 2013, 20:23

A few other pics:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-cAyXVG2qjiY/UcC6vLcDQTI/AAAAAAAA8RI/xO6IytfzKc0/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+fortaleza.png

"We are out from Facebook"

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-pw0GtV7RbNM/UcC6zRVCLMI/AAAAAAAA8R4/8ZUUskZ6qAY/s320/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+mascus+pedindo+pra+levar+bandeir a+contra+a+ditadura+lgbt.png

"The movement belongs to Brazilians, out with opportunists"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-IWfMveJMX58/UcC6zRJtZgI/AAAAAAAA8R8/d7YKze32Gb8/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+nao+acordei+ontem.png

I am going to the streets Thursday, for the quotas, for the legalisation of abortion, for the end of homophobia. And I didn't wake yesterday!"

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-H6hTVFoYoTw/UcC6f9FBRkI/AAAAAAAA8PM/MYmhlYjRWSs/s320/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+bh+15+de+jun1.jpg

"You shall see that a child of yours does not flee struggle" (a verse from the Brazilian national anthem)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-o59BjwdpaDU/UcC6yj2mg6I/AAAAAAAA8Rk/N_OD1ueD1Ao/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+manifest+em+curitiba.png

"Sorry for the disturbance" (a common phrase in signs warning for public works in streets or roads) "we are struggling for your rights - it is not just 20 cents" (twenty cents is the raise in bus tickets)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-840Elm7MFUY/UcC6zy3UbPI/AAAAAAAA8SI/VOryK0BNnvA/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+nem+direita+nem+esq.jpg

"Neither left nor right, we are Brazil; BR is BR"

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-zeET_LcyuUE/UcC61blcRwI/AAAAAAAA8Sc/FefPKydApWU/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+nao+esqueceremos+sp.png

"We shall not forget" (picture of a journalist who took a rubber bullet shot in the eye in São Paulo, on the first day of demonstrations)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-3rfG5F6nK30/UcC6vwVKBCI/AAAAAAAA8RM/7WBJH7O1dRk/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+legalize+o+vinagre.jpg

"Legalise vinegar, legalise freedom" (rumour had that vinegar could act as an antidote to tear gas, and the police is said to have arrested people on grounds of "possession of vinegar"...)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-t6mOIPwNRfY/UcC6tkTqVjI/AAAAAAAA8Q8/VfKAhdCosYI/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+em+porto+alegre+olha+a+minha+car a+de+vandala.png

"Don't I look like such a vandal?"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-g2KgMrbOvOs/UcC64QmUQDI/AAAAAAAA8TM/1iRij3aQRNc/s320/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+quando+seu+filho+ficar+doetne.jp g

"When your kid gets sick, take him to the $tadium"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-X-dDBV0phSA/UcC6zBT9KHI/AAAAAAAA8R0/qW7YtWSVTCM/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+manifestantes+cobrem+onibus+em+s p.png

"More love, please"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-gx_VBgDfp3M/UcC6nHW51qI/AAAAAAAA8QM/oGI3nK1Hfa4/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+curitiba+juventude+perdida.png

"'Lost youth' the fuck, I have so much more to say"

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-Qz6H6pQsFq4/UcC63jV0neI/AAAAAAAA8TA/1Medp8vD7zw/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+povo+unido+nao+precisa+de+partid o.jpg

"The people, united, doesn't need parties" (sorry, the rhyme got lost in translation...)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-sOhM9AQXIoo/UcC69VHTlmI/AAAAAAAA8T0/LuqEMjAix0g/s200/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+pro+rj+linda+foto.png

Red flags torn.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-TVd9hjc8bqs/Ub8-Nx7Pd3I/AAAAAAAA8NM/H-jEgBekgHc/s1600/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+prot+manifestante+abraca+policia.jpg

Tough love? Nah, more like "brave love". (and the number in the policeman's casket is ironic, "171" being the Penal Code article for swindling...)

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-gPMBS7hNBiI/Ub8-IvNiEqI/AAAAAAAA8MM/rVX5Wwr-Dh0/s1600/1+a+1+a+a+a+a+prot+acabou+a+apatia+fortaleza+virou +turquia.png

"Apathy is over, Fortaleza is now also Turkey" (another rhyme sacrificed to the cruel gods of translation)

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

20th June 2013, 21:31

This one is quite shocking:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=645843395445699&set=a.644729832223722.1073741828.644721115557927&type=1&permPage=1

"Elite's demonstration? No, ignorant. It is a demonstration of those who pay your 'bolsa-esmola'" ("bolsa-esmola" is the pejorative nickname the right gives to "bolsa-escola"; "esmola" means "alms" while "escola" means "school")

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

21st June 2013, 01:19

Today, in São Paulo, confrontations between red protestors (PT, PSTU, PSOL, PCO, PCdoB, CUT, Conlutas, UNE) and green-yellow protestors. There was little violence between the groups, but the tension was constant. The MPL has now adopted the line that it is "apartidary, not anti-partidary", and that they support the right of activists of the political parties to joint the protests. I think they are shocked by some posters (against abortion, for the reduction of penal age, for death penalty, for the return of the military rule) and some actions (vandalism) and in need of alliances against the right-wingers.

Luís Henrique

GuyinCognito

21st June 2013, 03:20

KarlLeft

21st June 2013, 03:22

I was interested to read that Sao Paulo state governor Gerlado Alckmin described the protestors as "troublemakers" and "vandals" which is a typically dismissive response from the ruling class. Tens of thousands protesting in the streets sounds like more than just "troublemakers" and "vandals" to me. Seems like there's a lot of discontent that's not being addressed.

LuÃs Henrique

21st June 2013, 15:21

The MPL has now adopted the line that it is "apartidary, not anti-partidary", and that they support the right of activists of the political parties to joint the protests. I think they are shocked by some posters (against abortion, for the reduction of penal age, for death penalty, for the return of the military rule) and some actions (vandalism) and in need of alliances against the right-wingers.

The MPL has indeed now decided no longer to call protests or participate in them: http://noticias.uol.com.br/cotidiano/ultimas-noticias/2013/06/21/apos-hostilidade-a-partidos-e-pauta-conservadora-mpl-nao-convocara-mais-atos.htm

I think they are wrong in doing that, and that their defection reinforces the right-wing aspect of these movements.

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

21st June 2013, 15:24

You got it completely wrong. The movement is not for "free bus tickets for students", it's for free bus fare for all.
It still has serious limitations and I'm fairly critical of it, but I feel it still can be supported on a class basis, because it's against an attack on the living standards of workers.
Even if one, as myself doesn't support or agrees with the organization leading it.

Well, they changed the demand. It started as a movement for free pass for students, and then radicalised into a movement for free pass for all. But its social base is still mainly composed of students.

Luís Henrique

LuÃs Henrique

21st June 2013, 15:43

These protests, which was initially about increasing the burden on transport of the poor, has had it's objectives concluded. Everything after that is just middle/uppermiddle/upper class brat protesting against not having more of the pie. They should not be supported since they are just like the terrible opposition in Venezuela.

Well, this is extremely simplistic. Next thing people will be saying that this is a Salafist-Zionist conspiracy; unhappily for them, neither Salafists nor Zionists are a relevant part of Brazilian politics (which further shows how mistaken such kind of idealist interpretations about the "Arab Spring" are).

But no. There is widespread discontent; people do not feel represented by the political system, and life is hard and people feel alienated and dehumanised. True, some react by demanding further dehumanisation of others; but this a different issue.

This is quite different from the escuálido movement in Venezuela. That one started as a movement against the expropriation of a private TV station; this one started as a movement for the expropriation of urban transport monopolies. The White Hands were clearly the instrument of a right-wing opposition, which from the start, and without hesitation, supported them; the Brazilian movement was brutally repressed by the opposition's police where it has state-level government. The Brazilian right evidently wants to surf the movement, and its most articulate sector - the bourgeois press - is evidently indirectly influencing it, and trying to tell the protestors what their demands and tactics should be; but they have no actual control, and are, in great part, as disoriented as the left and the extreme-left.

The immediate objective, that of reducing the bus fares, has been attained - but we know that the working class is still going to pay the difference through other means; all indications are that the mayoralities are going to give subsidies to the bus companies, so that their profits aren't reduced, and such mis-spending of public money cannot but negatively impact on other public services. So by no means have the objectives been "concluded".

Sure, there are middle class "brats" surfing the movement and demanding all kinds of absurds, death penalty, abolition of the auxílio-reclusão, lowering of the penal age, increased police violence against the poor, illegalisation of same-sex marriage, "abolition of the gay dictatorship", more strict penalties against abortion, etc. But if those were the only demands, you would not be able to get 1.5 million people protesting in the streets.

Luís Henrique

Rusty Shackleford

22nd June 2013, 03:44

This was posted before i was aware of another thread containing the same informaton. Ill leave it posted in spoilers though.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/brazils-protests-have-t181553/index.html

This is well worth a read. Seeing the "neither left nor right" shit is worrisome.

I havent seen much of this at all from the Turkish protests. But it was probably the most pervasive thing in Occupy in the US.

http://www.reddit.com/r/communism/comments/1gremb/brazils_protests_have_become_fascist/

and another comment on this post.

I just wanted to share this. A user /u/smithw sent us this message they'd sent to mods of another subreddit and that they'd written before they knew about /u/starmeleon's post on the same subject. I want to show it because it demonstrates that this is a view shared by other comrades in Brazil who also feel very strongly about fighting this current. Here is the message:
I'm writing to you because I really can't think of anyone else to write, and I (and my country) really need help. Right now, on the front page, there is a post with 3000+ upvotes glorifying the protests occurring in Brazil today. I need to tell someone, anyone, who's not in this country, the real story behind what's really happening here. I figured, since you people are in social justice movement, you'd be in a better position to undestand.
I'm not sure if you have been following international news in the last two weeks, so I'll summarise the facts. About two weeks ago, the major cities in the country raised the bus and train fares to a value too high for the average Brazilian (which does not speak English, does not visit Reddit and in many cases doesn't even have Internet access) to afford. The rate of this last increase was below inflation, but the accumulated rates of increases in the last 10 to 15 years easily surpasses it.
MPL (Movimento Passe Livre, Free Fare Movement), an organization which exists since the mid-2000s, and which is not affiliated to any political party (although it does maintain communication with minority left-wing parties), started calling for protests against the fare raise. The first two protests didn't garner much mainstream media attention, but when the third protest took over Avenida Paulista (Paulista Avenue), which is to São Paulo what the Times Square is to New York, the newspapers started to complain, painting protesters and the MPL as vandals and hooligans which only were interested in destroying the city. They had, in fact, used public trash bins as barricades against our violent PM (Polícia Militar or Military Police, a direct heritage from our military dictatorship period), which was using tear gas bombs, pepper spray and rubber ammunition on protesters indiscriminately.
This third protest occurred on Tuesday the 18th. On Thursday, the day scheduled for the fourth protest, two of the biggest newspapers in the country printed heavily opinionated editorials calling for the PM to "take action" and not be so "soft" on the protesters, and to defend the (mostly middle-class's) right to cars to run on the city's streets. What happened, then, was a massacre: the elite squad of the PM, Tropa de Choque, transformed the fourth protest in a reign of terror. I wasn't there, but I had close friends who were, and it was scary. The Tropa de Choque officers managed to split the protest into various small groups, and stablished a perimeter around the area so that no one could leave. They would surround any small group they could and relentlessly throw tear gas bombs. A journalist (and acquaintance of mine) was arrested on charges of carrying VINEGAR (since it can be used to alleviate the effects of tear gas and pepper spray). Two journalists were hit with rubber ammunition squarely on their eyes, and one of them, a photographer, lost his vision (and most likely his profession). Several journalists were arrested and injured, and the mainstream media, mostly because some of their own were injured, changed their discourse.
Since the disastrous procedure of the PM couldn't be buried under the rug (mostly because the noise on social media was too high), the mainstream media gave great exposure to this, instead. Throughout the weekend, anticipation started to mount for the next protest, scheduled for this last Monday. And that's when things started to get weird.
On Monday, the biggest (so far) protest occurred. At least 65 thousand people were on the streets of São Paulo alone, although people who were there were talking about figures of 200, 300 thousand. But it wasn't the people, it was the middle/upper classes, and right-wing extremists. Militants for small left-wing parties, who hold no political power whatsoever, were openly harassed by "protesters". The protest agenda was shifted right, mostly dropping the bus fare complaint to instead focus on "corruption" (which, in Brazil, is a right-wing demand, since the party holding the power is center-leftist), "high taxes", the "exploitation of the middle-class", the excessive public spending for next year's World Cup etc. The MPL and its demands were still present, but they were silenced by the elitists' demands. The newspapers suddenly stared glorifying the protests, and in the social networks memes like "O gigante acodou (the giant has awakened)" started popping up, implying there has been no social justice movement in Brazil before, which is a rampant lie - I can attest to that, since I am part of left-wing and feminist movements myself.
On Tuesday, there was another protest. This time, people destroyed the entrance to the City Hall in São Paulo. What's weird is that MPL, which called for the protest, scheduled the date and set the rendezvous point, did not go the City Hall's way. The rendezvous point was close to the City Hall, but the route MPL set for the protest was exactly opposite of the City Hall, and still a rather large group of people with national flags (which, in Brazil, is usually a sign of far-right fascist movements) and anti-taxes banners went that way. The PM, which was so ready to intervene before, stood and watched as the same people who destroyed the City Hall set a TV station van on fire on the middle of the street, according to people I know personally and who were there. Less trustworthy, but trustworthy (to me) nonetheless, rumours circulated on the social networks implying the state governor (which holds authority over the PM) had instructed the police -not to act- on any circumstances. The right-wing agenda instead continued being broadcast by the mainstream media, specially regarding the "impeachment" (lawful deposition, according to our Constitution) of the legally elected president - who is herself hated by the middle and upper classes, and adored by the lower classes. The nationalism on this protest was so thick you could smell it, as the fascism of it.
On Wednesday, São Paulo's mayor and the state governor (who are from rival political parties) went on TV together to announce the bus fare increased had been cancelled. The MPL scheduled another protest today, to celebrate the decision, but is has been another disaster.
This time, there was confront between the protester themselves. Left-wing protesters have been harassed. There are reports of anti-racism, feminist and anti-homophobia activists being beaten by right-wing protesters. Fascist skinheads have been spotted on the general surroundings of the protests, looking for victims. And the media is now reporting all the protests have been PACIFIC, which is an absurd lie. And the social justice people, on the social networks, have been conjuring a theory that actually makes sense, regarding our recent history.
In 1964, our country has suffered a coup d'état perpetrated by the military and the establishment forces together. In the days preceding the coup, there was uprising and political instability on the country, just as today. There was a big protest, aptly named "Walk of the Family With God For Liberty", which took place a mere two weeks before the coup, and on which about half a million middle and upper class people took the streets to protest against the center-left president João Goulart. What I mean is, we have been there, we know the feeling in the air, and the anger of the middle class against a president who has some pretty left wing policies is boiling and ready to explode.
From what I've seen, today's protest was very much akin to this 1964's Walk. The MPL's protests have been hijacked by the right, and since the left won't leave the streets to them, conflicts and confrontations are sure to take place. And, what's more dangerous, the police is now ignoring it, waiting for the popular clamor to call them back into action, so they can take over, possibly together with the military. There are rumours of a state of siege being prepared on the government dark corners.
I'm very worried, because these people who have "awakened" and who are now on the streets are people who look back to a time when they had unlimited and unchecked privileged, and who are so upset because that privilege has been slowly being taken away from them. They are people who hates on minorities, and who stand for exactly the opposite what I believe [you stand] for. And, mostly worrying, they have the full cooperation of the mainstream media, who had already shifted the protests' focus away from the bus fare and towards their demands since Monday.
Their discourse is becoming hegemonic, and if that happens, it spells a very dark future for my country. And that is happening on the mainstream media on Brazil, and now, as I see, on Reddit too. So please, if you can do anything to help shed a light on the OTHER side of those protests here, being it a meta post on prime (I mean, you don't have to take my word for it, Google Translator does an acceptable job on Portuguese to English texts, and I can link you to non-mainstream media news sources that will tell you the exact same story I've told), or anything really, I'd be really thankful.
I'm sorry for my bad English and for wasting you time with our 3rd world problems, but again, this is one of the only places I think I could be heard on Reddit.
Thanks in advance.

cyu

29th June 2013, 18:57

"Brazilian police prepared to receive tourists (in 06/17/2013)"

http://robson666.deviantart.com/art/Protest-Rio-de-Janeiro-in-17-06-2013-378848600

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/169/2/c/protesto_by_robson666-d69k1g8.jpg

cyu

29th June 2013, 19:10

http://fc06.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/171/b/e/the_giant_woke_up____by_madmonalisa-d69ywk8.png

http://madmonalisa.deviantart.com/art/The-Giant-woke-up-379542104

"It's not only for 20 cents, it's because of all the years that the government has been shitting on Brazilian people.

There are no good public schools, no efficient public hospitals, people are dying in the corridors of hospitals because there's no room or bed for them, the violence in the streets is incredibly high amidst many other problems. People really disliked the fact that the government invested some much in building and reforming stadiums for the World Cup 2014 while other, much important aspects of our country need improving.

we have an open racist and homophobe evangelist leading the Commission of Human Rights. Marcos Feliciano says black people are cursed people, descending from some cursed son of Noah from Africa (or something like that), he also says that being gay is a disease. He said all that in his Twitter account. He even managed to make his proposal of a 'gay cure' be approved in his commission. The 'gay cure' says that psychologists can treat homosexuals as if they were diseased, as if they could be cured for being homosexual. The Council of Medicine and Psychology is revolted by this.

absurd new laws in progress of being approved are the 'Unborn Child Statute', that basically prevents RAPED women to go through an abortion. If approved, women pregnant of STILLBIRTH and ANENCEPHALIC babies will be FORCED to go through the ENTIRE gestation! And women who suffered NATURAL ABORTION will be under the risk of being investigated by the authorities. The authorities will also give some sort of financial aid to RAPED woman so they can raise their fruit of violence.

people are also revolted with the press coverage. showing almost only the vandalism and "forgetting" to show the peaceful, organized side of the protest, so the mass can think the riots don't have a cause for this, or that they are just looking for trouble.

What these pictures say is that the media has been telling people that there are only about 50.000 brazilians on the street, while the photos clearly show that there's more than 1 million people!"

cyu

29th June 2013, 19:11

"A reporter was SHOT IN THE EYE. SHE HAS LOST HER EYE. A POLICE MAN AIMED AT HER. She saw it, but she would NEVER thought he was going to actually SHOT."

http://blacklothussayshello.deviantart.com/art/Brazilian-Spring-378713162

http://fc07.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/168/a/f/brazilian_spring_by_blacklothussayshello-d69h4y2.jpg

cyu

29th June 2013, 19:13

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2013/168/0/d/brazilian_spring_by_blacklothussayshello-d69h7yt.jpg

http://blacklothussayshello.deviantart.com/art/Brazilian-Spring-378717077

"our public tranport is awful, metro is inhuman full every day, buses are in a terrible state, etc. They were painted as a bunch of vandals(but I have to assume, a few ones were), when the police used tear gas bombs and rubber bullets against people that were only armed with their VOICES and POSTERS. They were screaming NO VIOLENCE! And as result? VIOLENCE!

So, now it has gained nacional extent, and almost all major cities in the country.

I am spreading the news here, because the Governement does not show it, and so does our media.

The CUP it's actually seen here as a bad thing, since our School and Healthcare systems are a TOTAL FAIL, because our money is not been correctly invest on them. And a 1,2 billion reais were gone to build the stadium "Mané Garrincha". It is absurd."

cyu

29th June 2013, 19:15

"What is happening here it's not the Cup, it's not vandalism. It's revolution."

http://blacklothussayshello.deviantart.com/art/Brazilian-Spring-378722831

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/168/9/a/brazilian_spring_by_blacklothussayshello-d69hcen.jpg

cyu

29th June 2013, 19:16

http://blacklothussayshello.deviantart.com/art/Brazil-381354192

http://fc03.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2013/179/6/d/brazil_by_blacklothussayshello-d6b1qs0.jpg

LuÃs Henrique

3rd July 2013, 21:45

"A reporter was SHOT IN THE EYE. SHE HAS LOST HER EYE. A POLICE MAN AIMED AT HER. She saw it, but she would NEVER thought he was going to actually SHOT."

As a correction, she did not lose her eye.

Luís Henrique

barbelo

4th July 2013, 16:19

Brazilians, what is your opinion about Dilma's pronouncement? Do you agree with her plans (political reform, importing medics from others coutries [lol, wut], enormous and useless federal investment in the education and transport, etc)?

I read about her pronouncement with my heart in my hand: at the same that she didn't tackle any of the country problems, only proposed to spend more and more, I feel that the protests now lost the momentum, as if the country is now tamed.

LuÃs Henrique

5th July 2013, 12:52

Brazilians, what is your opinion about Dilma's pronouncement? Do you agree with her plans (political reform, importing medics from others coutries [lol, wut], enormous and useless federal investment in the education and transport, etc)?

I think they are good ideas. I particularly like the useless investment; I am always in favour of useless investment.

Seriously - they are attempts at direct responses to the concerns and demands raised by the demonstrations. In general, I think they go in the right direction; obviously some of them will rub a few people the wrong way, such as "importing" physicians from abroad, which irritates the corporativism of Brazilian physicians.

Investment in transport is absolutely essential; it is an old and well known bottleneck. I wonder how education has gone from priority #1 to "useless", but it is also evident that more investment in the area is necessary.

I read about her pronouncement with my heart in my hand: at the same that she didn't tackle any of the country problems, only proposed to spend more and more, I feel that the protests now lost the momentum, as if the country is now tamed.

The problems of the country can't be tackled without raising public "spending"; it is impossible to ammelliorate the lot of the Brazilian people for free.

The protests have lost momentum, definitely. The people haven't been "tamed", as they were not "tamed" before the protests either. The special conjunction of disparate political aspects that made them soar is over. The Confederations Cup is over; the PEC 37 was rejected by Congress; so was the "gay cure" project; the raises in bus fares were reversed, and the federal government established institutional mechanisms to deal with the problem of urban transportation. Most important, perhaps, people have realised that the protests were amorphous and demanded sundry, incoherent, even mutually exclusive things. This has lead to several successive splits in the protests, as not everyone was eager to protest and demand the same things. This of course resulted in smaller and less photogenic demonstrations. As soon as it felt safe, the bourgeois press, that had been incentivating them and trying to direct them against the federal government, called them off, arguing the main demands had been met (and if such main demands were the rejection of PEC 37, the end of secret vote in the parliament, and harsher penalties for corruption, they certainly were met) and claiming vandalism (which was also an evident thing, and something that utterly repulsed the vast majority of people taking part of the demonstrations).

So, really... things aren't black and white. We weren't "asleep"; the Brazilian social movements have a long, fierce tradition of struggle. We didn't rise against bourgeois order; the demonstrations were incoherent and demanded little that wasn't within the limits of capital's logic. We didn't come to the brink of a revolution; public order, bourgeois institutions and ideology, private property, social hierarchy, all remained firmly in place and were hardly questioned by the demonstrations (hell, not even the markets panicked!) And the deep discontent that fueled the demonstrations isn't gone; we remain a poor country with too little public services, a very unequal distribution of income, a problematic economy, a firmly entrenched high bourgeoisie, a middle class who don't recognise themselves as workers and is easily seduced by petty privilege, law-and-order demagoguery, and general prejudice against the poor. None of those things have changed, and all of them, among others, remain the material basis for further social struggle. But things do not develop linearly, and much less according to our wishes.

Luís Henrique

barbelo

5th July 2013, 17:22

I said useless because- correct me if I'm wrong- isn't education in Brazil, except tertiary, decided and spent in a state and city level? I remember from the pronouncement the proposition of spending oil money on education, as again, isn't this money property of the state instead of the federation? Does she plan to hurt the constitution and the states autonomy in order to determine how they spend in education?
I wish she said anything about making voting not obligatory anymore, or changing how parties are created... It seems there isn't interest in brazilian political class to really change anything.

And also the investment in transport, something in the figures of 25$ billion, you agree that more public spending is the solution to an inefficient public spending? As before, isn't transport as buses and subways planned and built on a state or city level?
It seems almost as if Dilma is trying to assume the movement for herself and use it to push her own plans, i.e. the importing of medics.
I don't remember seeing any train or rail in Brazil, not even for goods transport, there is any plan to build those?

such as "importing" physicians from abroad, which irritates the corporativism of Brazilian physicians.If this was proposed in the United States...
Anyway, what a tricky capitalistic tactic, she is obvisouly trying to attract spanish and portuguese unemployed youth to Brazil.

Most important, perhaps, people have realised that the protests were amorphous and demanded sundry, incoherent, even mutually exclusive things.Well, but any movement is like that. People doesn't need to know what they demand, and doesn't need to be unified, because there is a fucking class of workers, called politicians, who are paid exactly to infer that.

But I see what you mean, I really started to perceive the heterogeneity of the movement after some time, the brazilian left seems stuck in the 80's (I remember even reading some comments in news websites about military coup, which is ridiculous and a irrational hysteria) and the brazilian right, or let's say, the brazilian liberalistic forces who struggle for a smaller and more free economy, are non-existent. Reading all slogans of the movement I could see this, in one side people who want bus for 0,50$ subsidized from the population pocket, in the other side people who doesn't like the fact that Brazil turned into a smaller, weaker and more corrupt China, with big state companies like Petrobrás running shit and doesn't see the point in paying thousands of taxes that are never returned in services and better quality of life.
Pardon me for any ignorance, as I read this only from a distance and from sites that probably distort the events.

I think it would be or would've been a great conquest for brazilians if they could simply prevent the world coup and olympics from happening.

LuÃs Henrique

5th July 2013, 23:34

I said useless because- correct me if I'm wrong- isn't education in Brazil, except tertiary, decided and spent in a state and city level?

Well, the main responsibility for elementary education belongs to municipalities, and the main responsibility for intermediate education belongs to states. As anyone who knows Brazil is aware, there are plenty of state-level elementary schools, and a few municipal high schools: states fill the void when municipalities are too poor to fund their elementary schools, and bigger and richer municipalities venture into intermediate education when possible. Same goes for federal investment. College level education is the primary responsibility of federal government, but this does not mean that the federal government cannot invest in elementary or intermediate education, or that states or municipalities cannot have their own universities (indeed, two of the best Brazilian universities, USP and Unicamp, belong to the state of São Paulo). Plus, I am not informed that investment in college level education is "useless", nor can I understand how are you going to take elementary or intermediate education in serious without preparing teachers for them, and I don't see where else they can be prepared except in Universities.

I remember from the pronouncement the proposition of spending oil money on education, as again, isn't this money property of the state instead of the federation?

Oil money evidently will be part federal and part state-level. Or are we thinking that a poor state like Rio Grande do Norte should remain poor because it was not blessed with oil fields?

Does she plan to hurt the constitution and the states autonomy in order to determine how they spend in education?

The Brazilian constitution does not allow that much autonomy to states. It is perfectly possible to determine what part of state budgets should be spent in education without hurting the constitution.

I wish she said anything about making voting not obligatory anymore,

Argh. The typical "demand" of mauricinhos and patricinhas, who can't be bothered with participating in the political process. And, of course, the dream of the Brazilian oligarchs who wish for a way to deny the right to vote to the poor majority of the population.

or changing how parties are created...

What, in your opinion, is wrong with the way parties are created?

It seems there isn't interest in brazilian political class to really change anything.

So, more funding to education isn't important, but the "right" of upper middle class idlers not wasting their holyday in a voting queue, or the way political parties are created are? What are your criteria for "important change"?

And also the investment in transport, something in the figures of 25$ billion, you agree that more public spending is the solution to an inefficient public spending?

Sure. Without completely revamping public transportation, I don't see how this problem can be solved or reduced.

As before, isn't transport as buses and subways planned and built on a state or city level?

As before, your understanding of the functioning of the Brazilian federation is quite feeble.

It seems almost as if Dilma is trying to assume the movement for herself and use it to push her own plans, i.e. the importing of medics.

Well, a states(wo)man should listen to what people want and demand, or not? Is your complaint that she isn't merely unleashing police against the masses, so that you can denounce her as a dictator?

What, in your opinion, is the problem with "importing" physicians?

I don't remember seeing any train or rail in Brazil, not even for goods transport, there is any plan to build those?

Here are some (https://www.google.com.br/search?q=trem+da+central&client=opera&hs=ZnF&channel=suggest&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=3kXXUYmuELLM0gH0tYDYAw&ved=0CD4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=655), but this is a really important question; the rail net in Brazil was all but destroyed by the dictatorship, in order to favour the auto industry; it is well the time that its rebuilding becomes an important public concern. I don't know if this is in Dilma's plans; it certainly didn't figure among the priorities of her or Lula's government with the priority it deserves.

If this was proposed in the United States...

Well, not everything that is good for the States is good for Brazil. The United States do not have the problem of meeting demand for physicians in rural areas in the same level as Brazil has, nor do they have the problem of Medicine college level education being strictly directed to urban (and, frankly, middle class) pathologies.

Anyway, what a tricky capitalistic tactic, she is obvisouly trying to attract spanish and portuguese unemployed youth to Brazil.

Which is bad, exactly how?

Well, but any movement is like that. People doesn't need to know what they demand, and doesn't need to be unified, because there is a fucking class of workers, called politicians, who are paid exactly to infer that.

Well, in a revolutionary movement, people do need to know what they demand, and they do need to be unified, because the point is to oust the "fucking" class of workers called politicians. If we don't and aren't, it is quite to expect that politicians will "infer" what we want, and take their measures after such "inference".

But I see what you mean, I really started to perceive the heterogeneity of the movement after some time, the brazilian left seems stuck in the 80's (I remember even reading some comments in news websites about military coup, which is ridiculous and a irrational hysteria) and the brazilian right, or let's say, the brazilian liberalistic forces who struggle for a smaller and more free economy, are non-existent.

Thankfully, I would say. The last thing we need are "forces who struggle for a smaller and more free economy".

Though I fear you don't make justice for the PSDB and the DEM; they are the parties for the free economy, which means, the parties for further enslavement of the people. They fight their fight against everything human with great dedication; if they don't attain better results is because we are not idiots, and we have seen and suffered in our flesh the results of their "smaller and more free" economy.

Reading all slogans of the movement I could see this, in one side people who want bus for 0,50$ subsidized from the population pocket, in the other side people who doesn't like the fact that Brazil turned into a smaller, weaker and more corrupt China, with big state companies like Petrobrás running shit and doesn't see the point in paying thousands of taxes that are never returned in services and better quality of life.

In other words, you favour the return of neoliberal politics to our country. I hope you will continue to be very disgruntled.

Pardon me for any ignorance, as I read this only from a distance and from sites that probably distort the events.

Apparently you read this from a right-wing, pro-capital, neoliberal, antipopular point of view.

I think it would be or would've been a great conquest for brazilians if they could simply prevent the world coup and olympics from happening.

I think this is extremly foolish and naïve.

Luís Henrique

barbelo

7th July 2013, 19:01

Luis Henrique, I hope you don't sense any hostily in my words, as I said before, I'm not brazilian, my knowledge of portuguese is poor and I'm just trying to understand the political situation of your country.

Plus, I am not informed that investment in college level education is "useless", nor can I understand how are you going to take elementary or intermediate education in serious without preparing teachers for them, and I don't see where else they can be prepared except in Universities.More money doesn't mean more quality, it's impossible to generate qualification with money alone. In most countries the best universities are private while in Brazil the best ones are god forsaken islands of public money that only a small priviledged portion of the population is able to enter.
When the executive power says that it'll spend a money that isn't his in an educational system that already has an absurd budget with almost no return or quality, I can only feel alarmed.

Oil money evidently will be part federal and part state-level. Or are we thinking that a poor state like Rio Grande do Norte should remain poor because it was not blessed with oil fields?Will? I thought that the oil royality bill was rejected, no?
Poor like Nebraska is in relation to Texas? So all states should be equally rich even if it hurts their autonomy?
What if there wasn't any oil field at all, should people be dependent on resources in order to "not be poor"?
Of course this is my personal and partial opinion, but it seems very strange and authoritarian for a federation to centralize and appropriate a state profit from resources extraction. I hope Brazil doesn't follow this russianesque path.

Argh. The typical "demand" of mauricinhos and patricinhas, who can't be bothered with participating in the political process. And, of course, the dream of the Brazilian oligarchs who wish for a way to deny the right to vote to the poor majority of the population.I thought these oligarchs were the same ones who get elected en masse by a population who doesn't feel represented by them, or the ones who, like that scene in Tropa de Elite 2, buy votes of entire poor communities in a few illegal moves.
People are not participating of any political process if you are forcing them to participate, choosing not to chose, etc, etc, etc.
I met a guy in Brazil who couldn't travel because he was abroad during an election, they didn't accept his justification and he lost his passport. I can't see how this helps brazilian democracy, how being forced to vote for the lesser of two evils is "political process", and how Brazil would be so different from Usa or Russia, big countries where voting isn't compulsory.

What, in your opinion, is wrong with the way parties are created?Maybe I'm mistaken but I believe you need to fill 5 thousands signatures in order to create a party in Brazil, right? Or something similar? And after that you need the approval of some government institution? This seems extremely archaic.
I remember seeing the new parties in the last municipal elections, there was a state capitalistic one which sounded like Party of Scientific Socialism, and it was basically a party funded by employees of the oil company Petrobrás and another which seemed a small imitation of PT.
What I understood from the situation: only parties following PT lines, ideology and plans were approved.
Looking at the protests one of the biggest frustrations I could identify is that brazilians doesn't feel represented by their politicians, they feel completly excluded and alienated from the political process.
If the procedure of parties creation was easier, more transparent, more honest, I bet that many brazilians with the desire to improve things would enter politics. But... This is only a bet.

What are your criteria for "important change"?Implementation of a swiss like direct or semi-direct democracy in state or municipal level.
Real autonomy for states.
Creation of a lasting rail network for transport of people and goods in the whole country, something which Dilma doomed forever by making private.
Budget transparency, consistent public spending- for example, when I went to Rio I saw that carnival and new year were public funded events but Rio subway was left incomplete in the 70's and never touched again-, less corruption, etc.

But I disgress. Maybe I'm speaking stupid things because I'm not brazilian, but these are stuff, at least from a distance, that I think would be universally good for brazilians.

Well, a states(wo)man should listen to what people want and demand, or not? What, in your opinion, is the problem with "importing" physicians?It seems strange.
Before the protests she was already talking about some plans (like importing medics), then protests happen and she appears on national television saying that she will, ta da, implement exactly her plans, as if they were part of the protests demand, which I'm surely they weren't.
And the problem is, the brazilians medics have their worker rights. You can't simply import foreign (and irregular) workforce in order to lower wages and create "competition".

Here are some (https://www.google.com.br/search?q=trem+da+central&client=opera&hs=ZnF&channel=suggest&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=3kXXUYmuELLM0gH0tYDYAw&ved=0CD4QsAQ&biw=1024&bih=655), but this is a really important question; the rail net in Brazil was all but destroyed by the dictatorshipThis is a inteurban tram, right? I was talking more about city to city trains.
And I thought the one who destroyed Brazil rail network was Kubitschek and the car lobby, way before dictatorship.

Though I fear you don't make justice for the PSDB and the DEM; they are the parties for the free economyI thought PSDB was the social democratic party which started welfare programs and such. There is any party in Brazil with proposals to reform taxes, cut spending and similar?

In other words, you favour the return of neoliberal politics to our country. I hope you will continue to be very disgruntled. [...] Apparently you read this from a right-wing, pro-capital, neoliberal, antipopular point of view.Please don't misinterpret me, I don't favor anything. I only think Brazil is the perfect example of why this left-right dicothomy doesn't make sense anymore, you see a supposedly left wing party in power, yet they behave like command capitalists, they save private banks with public money, they privatize airports and stadiums, they avoid any opportunity to create a social service or control inflation, they build and push state companies like Petrobrás...

I think this is extremly foolish and naïve.Why you think so?

LuÃs Henrique

7th July 2013, 21:33

More money doesn't mean more quality, it's impossible to generate qualification with money alone. In most countries the best universities are private while in Brazil the best ones are god forsaken islands of public money that only a small priviledged portion of the population is able to enter.

Money is like rope; you can pull things with it but not push them. So, no, more money is not a guarantee of quality, but less money is, yes, a guarantee of less quality.

I don't know whether in most countries the best universities are private, but you are right, in Brazil they are public. They are certainly not "god forsaken islands of public money", whatever that means. They are, well, universities: places of research and learning, where people who play indispensable roles in a modern capitalist society are formed: physicians, engineers, teachers, nurses, lawyers, journalists, etc.

We have a warped educational system, where in order to be able to enter public college people need first to attend private elementary and intermediate education. And yes, this is a huge problem. It cannot be solved by worsening the situation through privatisation of college education. On the contrary, what is needed is a strong public elementary and intermediate education system, that can prepare people for college as well or even better than the private schools.

That is the reason the federal government - that one that you believe is good for nothing - has been pressing states and municipalities to strengthen their educational systems - including legislation that reserves quotas in public colleges for people who attended public elementary and intermediate schools.

When the executive power says that it'll spend a money that isn't his in an educational system that already has an absurd budget with almost no return or quality, I can only feel alarmed.

Seriously, it must be the first time I hear or read the idea that the budget of the educational system is "absurd", meaning "absurdly high". All complaints - included those that could be seen in the June demonstrations - are that it is insufficient.

Will? I thought that the oil royality bill was rejected, no?

It still doesn't mean that the states will somehow pocket all the "oil money", no. First, not all taxes are state-level; second, as the federal government redistributes money to the poorer states and municipalities, those that will enjoy increased revenues from oil will no longer be favored in such way, and consequently federal transferences will benefit other places.

Poor like Nebraska is in relation to Texas? So all states should be equally rich even if it hurts their autonomy?

Well, I am a communist. Are you asking me if I am against equality?

Seriously, I don't give a shit for states' autonomy. I would gladly live in an unitary country, and I really don't think federations are sacred. I don't think France is less of a democracy than Brazil or Germany, merely because it isn't a federation.

As a note, Nebraska is actully richer than Texas. It is the 22nd richer state, and Texas the 25th. The richest American state is Maryland, with a median household income of US$ 70,000; the poorest is Mississippi, with a mhi of US$ 36,000. So, a disparity of 2 to 1. The richest Brazilian state is São Paulo, with a per capita income of R$ 24,000; the poorest is Piauí, with a per capita income of R$ 5,400. That is a proportion of almost 5 to 1! So, no, not like Nebraska in relation to Texas, nor even like Mississippi in relation to Maryland. Brazilian inequality is on an altogether different level. Even though inequality in the US has been consistently in the rise since 1980 at least, while Brazilian inequality has been diminishing from 2004 on.

(And I am pretty sure Texas' wealth is hampered by federal regulations that limit drilling, on strategic federal considerations.)

What if there wasn't any oil field at all, should people be dependent on resources in order to "not be poor"?

No, of course. But existing wealth must be shared. What does non-existing wealth to do with that?

Of course this is my personal and partial opinion, but it seems very strange and authoritarian for a federation to centralize and appropriate a state profit from resources extraction. I hope Brazil doesn't follow this russianesque path.

I don't see anything wrong with that. It is the French path, or the Swedish, or the Neozelander, etc.

I thought these oligarchs were the same ones who get elected en masse by a population who doesn't feel represented by them, or the ones who, like that scene in Tropa de Elite 2, buy votes of entire poor communities in a few illegal moves.

The golden age of vote buying is, I fear, on they way of its long deserved death. Which is one of the reasons for the agitation of "non-mandatory vote": if we can no longer buy their vote, let's try and see if we can at least still buy their abstention, which should logically be much cheaper.

People are not participating of any political process if you are forcing them to participate, choosing not to chose, etc, etc, etc.

Citizens are citizens. They must participate, it is part of their duties as citizens. What is wrong with that?

I met a guy in Brazil who couldn't travel because he was abroad during an election, they didn't accept his justification and he lost his passport. I can't see how this helps brazilian democracy, how being forced to vote for the lesser of two evils is "political process", and how Brazil would be so different from Usa or Russia, big countries where voting isn't compulsory.

He lost his passport because they didn't accept his justification? That sounds utterly absurd. One easily justifies for not voting if one is in a different city within Brazil; this is not something that demands an evaluation and being "accepted" by anyone - you just go to a post office and communicate that you aren't going to vote. The mere fact that you go to a post office in a place different of your voting place proves you cannot vote, there is nothing that authorities can do about it.

Are you sure your acquaintance told you the true story?

Maybe I'm mistaken but I believe you need to fill 5 thousands signatures in order to create a party in Brazil, right? Or something similar? And after that you need the approval of some government institution? This seems extremely archaic.

5 thousand signatures in a country of more than 100 million voters, and you think this is too much? In the country where you live, there is a 5% threshold for a party to obtain seats in the parliament! (an idea, to be sure, that the parties that favour a "smaller and more free economy" have been campaigning for for decades - or had been, perhaps, since it is increasingly more likely that they themselves might not reach such threshold not to far to the future.) 5% of 100 million would be 5 million, not 5 thousand.

And no, there is no necessity of any kind of approval of any government institution. There is, I suppose, some kind of control to guarantee that Dilma Rousseff's signature isn't being used for the foundation of the White Males' Neoliberal Party, or José Serra's for the foundation of the Radical Internationalist Communist Party, but then this would be common sence, wouldn't it? And, of course, once a party is created, it is possible for someone else to argue it is aims are unconstitutional, and probably in this way get the São Paulo's Independence Party, or the National Socialist Brazilian Workers' Party, or the War on Argentina Party banned. Like, you know, in Germany, neonazi parties are banned?

I remember seeing the new parties in the last municipal elections, there was a state capitalistic one which sounded like Party of Scientific Socialism, and it was basically a party funded by employees of the oil company Petrobrás and another which seemed a small imitation of PT.

I didn't see any of those; are you sure they exist?

What I understood from the situation: only parties following PT lines, ideology and plans were approved.

You would be very mistaken. The parties created since 2003 are:

PR - conservative (actually hegemonised by evangelic conservatives, acts as a political arm of Brazilian protestant churches), supports the federal government
PRB - centrist/conservative, quite similar to the above, supports the federal government
PSD - centrist, a splinter from the PSDB, tries to play a third-way line between government and opposition
PSOL - democratic socialist, opposes the government
PPL - "Marxist-leninist" left nationalism, supports the government
PEN - centrist "green", tries to play a third way between government and opposition

As you see, they are from all corners of the political spectrum, and both oppose or support the government, or try some kind of support-and-oppose trickery.

Looking at the protests one of the biggest frustrations I could identify is that brazilians doesn't feel represented by their politicians, they feel completly excluded and alienated from the political process.

Yes, there is such feeling. It also comes from very different corners, some of it having to do with people who vote for the left but then have to deal with a PT government that includes a whole lot of centrist or even right-wing "allies" (or, better saying, parasites"), some having to do with the extreme polarisation between PT and PSDB (the kind of voter who opted for Marina Silva in the latest presidential election), some with the absence of an actual far right party, some just with the general feeling that the political system is unable to listen/understand the small folk. None of those can be even ammeliorated by non-mandatory vote (which, much on the contrary, can only result if further alienation; if I don't feel represented by those I have voted in, how am I going to feel represented by those I didn't even bother to vote in?)

If the procedure of parties creation was easier, more transparent, more honest, I bet that many brazilians with the desire to improve things would enter politics. But... This is only a bet.

I don't think it can be easier or more transparent, short of allowing two or three people to declare themselves a "political party".

Implementation of a swiss like direct or semi-direct democracy in state or municipal level.

Like for instance the participatory budgets that are common in municipalities governed by the PT?

Real autonomy for states.

I don't think so. If that was actually implemented, the possibility of real secessionist tensions would greatly increase.

Creation of a lasting rail network for transport of people and goods in the whole country, something which Dilma doomed forever by making private.

Erm... the privatisation of railroads was in Fernando Henrique's government. But to recast an actual rail network, a huge amount of public spending will be necessary. Something that certainly doesn't fit a "smaller and more free economy".

Budget transparency, consistent public spending- for example, when I went to Rio I saw that carnival and new year were public funded events but Rio subway was left incomplete in the 70's and never touched again-, less corruption, etc.

I suppose you have an idea of how complicated it is to have actual controls over public money, no?

There has been huge progress in such matters since the new constitution in 1988. An independent body of public attorneys, attorney control of the police, stricter internal controls in the federal government, increased publicisation of budgets and spending, stricter laws against corruption, less political interference in the judicial branch. Etc.

A huge amount of the present frustration with corruption is caused exactly because such improvements expose and reveal corruption. That's the reason behind the crazed "popular" belief that in the time of the military there was "no corruption". Of course, there was "no corruption": people who tried to denounce it were jailed, instead of the corrupts themselves. It is the kind of "no corruption" that I want nothing to do with, and that I sincerely hope is never reinstated in our country.

Cutting public spending on Carnival isn't a good idea. It is a huge popular party, one that people wait for the whole year, quite certainly the most important leisure event for workers and the poor in general. It would look like a merely sadistic act of revenge against the poor, and would likely spark revolt.

And I am pretty sure one of the reasons that the subway in Rio remains unfinished is because of corruption in its works, which caused lawsuits that stopped it (and disencouraged more recent administrations to restart the process).

But I disgress. Maybe I'm speaking stupid things because I'm not brazilian, but these are stuff, at least from a distance, that I think would be universally good for brazilians.

It is curious, because you certainly seem influenced by the kind of self-deprecating "reverse nationalism" that is so much characteristic of so many Brazilians.

It seems strange.
Before the protests she was already talking about some plans (like importing medics), then protests happen and she appears on national television saying that she will, ta da, implement exactly her plans, as if they were part of the protests demand, which I'm surely they weren't.
And the problem is, the brazilians medics have their worker rights. You can't simply import foreign (and irregular) workforce in order to lower wages and create "competition".

Well, regardless of whether the protests were demanding the import of physicians (they weren't), the issue is whether the import of physicians would ease some of the problems raised by the protests, isn't it?

Nobody that I know is talking about importing and irregular workforce. On the contrary, the issue is how to make the import of physicians regular.

The necessity of physicians in rural areas is a well known problem. Brazilian physicians (understandably) don't want to work in small cities, which in turn haven't the budget necessary to pay them what they are paid in urban centres (much less what it would take to convince them to abandon the facilities of a huge city). Brazilian medical colleges, accordingly, don't teach what is necessary to work in small town conditions; Brazilian physicians don't know how to work without sophisticated material that isn't available in small towns, nor are they likely to specialise in tropical diseases, for instance. We have too may aesthetic surgeons (some of the best in the world, indeed), and to little general clinics, enterologists, dermatologists, infectologists.

Solving this again means considerable public spending, not a smaller economy, and probably reducing universitary autonomy, not expanding it. But that takes time, and the import of foreign physicians (especially Cubans, since they do have the training for the kind of diseases that are found in rural Brazil, and the training necessary to work without sophisticated instruments) is an emergency measure that will probably help tackling that (by making Brazilian physicians aware that they are needed in Lábrea, not in Copacabana, and by making Brazilian universities aware that they need to prepare physicians to all that need them, not just for the urban middle and upper classes).

This is a inteurban tram, right? I was talking more about city to city trains.
And I thought the one who destroyed Brazil rail network was Kubitschek and the car lobby, way before dictatorship.

Ah, yes, it started under Kubitshek. But it was taken to its glorious conclusion by the military dictatorship, and the problems it caused remain unaddressed, having not been dealt with by any of the civil governments, from Sarney to Dilma.

I thought PSDB was the social democratic party which started welfare programs and such. There is any party in Brazil with proposals to reform taxes, cut spending and similar?

Hahaha, no.

The PSDB is social democratic in name only. It is the main party of neoliberalism in Brazil. The feeble welfare system we have in Brazil was created during the Vargas dictatorship, under the populist governments of the democratic period 1945-64, under the military dictatorship (which expanded it while lowering the quality standards), and attacked by Collor and Fernando Henrique.

The parties that propose to reform taxes and cut spending are, as usual, the right: the PSDB and the DEM. They want "austerity", as they call it in Europe, which is an awful idea, certain to make the country downspiral into a brutal recession. Granted, they are not excessively consistent on these issues, in part because they don't want to become completely irrelevant. There have been other right wing parties that were more "ideological" about that, usually agitating a very stupid idea, the "imposto único", but they have never been able to convince anyone that a regressive tax system is a good idea for a country with such brutal inequality indexes as Brazil.

Please don't misinterpret me, I don't favor anything. I only think Brazil is the perfect example of why this left-right dicothomy doesn't make sense anymore, you see a supposedly left wing party in power, yet they behave like command capitalists, they save private banks with public money, they privatize airports and stadiums, they avoid any opportunity to create a social service or control inflation, they build and push state companies like Petrobrás...

Well, you know, you can't completely revamp a country overnight just because you win an election. It takes widespread support to do it, and it cannot be earned without a lot of political labour. That such labour isn't being done as it should is another consideration. Until the working class itself takes in its hands to revolutionise society, there is little a left wing government can do except behave like command capitalists. I don't think Lula or Dilma's governments have saved private banks with public money, though certainly one could argue that this is because no Brazilian private banks went bankrupt from 2003 on. The main process of privatisation was discontinued in 2003; the new government made two things I disagree with, but that probably would have been too difficult to avoid at that time: they continued the privatisations that were already ongoing, and didn't reverse the privatisations that were already concluded.

Airports weren't really privatised; they were leased to private initiative, but the process, unlike privatisation, is reversible. I don't like it either, but it is not the same thing. But your priorities seem confused. Apparently you oppose the privatisation of airports or stadiums, but favour the privatisation of oil companies and universities? I have seen people who want to privatise all, and people who want to privatise none; but the people who want to privatise some but not all usually agree that Petrobrás and the universities are the ones not to be privatised, and that stadiums are the ones to go. Your position seems paradoxal, wanting to privatise what is most likely to be seen as evidently public, and to keep public what would be more likely to be considered the terrain of private initiative.

Why you think so?

Really? The great conquest of a Brazilian popular movement would be the canceling of an event that probably the huge majority of Brazilians want to be held? For what end, so that the political right can accuse the government of being too incompetent for even an easy task like organising the Olympics an the World Cup, and consequently dream of winning the next election?

Luís Henrique

barbelo

9th July 2013, 03:55

Luis Henrique, you wrote a long ass wall of text and I'll take some time to answer it.
I'll only reply a brief thing.

It is curious, because you certainly seem influenced by the kind of self-deprecating "reverse nationalism" that is so much characteristic of so many Brazilians.Indeed, my main channel of information, besides news sites as carta capital and folha of course, is a brazilian co-worker of mine.
He said many times he is grateful for leaving Brazil and don't plan to ever get back.

But by his physical appearance I would never say he is brazilian, or what I imagine as being the average brazilian at least.

LuÃs Henrique

9th July 2013, 12:04

Luis Henrique, you wrote a long ass wall of text and I'll take some time to answer it.

Sorry for that. I live in a complicated country, which is not easy to explain to foreigners in few words.

Indeed, my main channel of information, besides news sites as carta capital and folha of course, is a brazilian co-worker of mine.
He said many times he is grateful for leaving Brazil and don't plan to ever get back.

Ah, yes... that would explain a lot of things.

As a friendly advice, don't take everything an expatriate says about his country at face value - exile isn't an easy experience, and people go to quite convoluted extremes to "justify" their decision to move abroad to themselves.

I would say this is doubly true in case of expatriate Brazilians, due to the strong tendency for self-deprecation that is prevalent among Brazilians in general.

But by his physical appearance I would never say he is brazilian, or what I imagine as being the average brazilian at least.

It is said that Brazilian passports are highly valued among passport counterfeiters... because whatever your physical appearance is, it matches some significant group of Brazilians. We have them European-looking, African-looking, Middle-Eastern-looking, East Asian-looking... all flavours and colours.

I suppose your friend looks like an European? That would possibly explain a little bit more about his bitter reverse nationalism.

Luís Henrique