The punishment for the bourgeoisie

[Manifesto]

I was discussing workers' struggles with a good friend of mine that is on this forum about how pimps are the bourgeois of the sex industry. While talking with her I came up with an idea, after a fair trial and if found guilty, the bourgeoisie should have to experience the same life they put their workers through. That means doing the same job, and in the same work conditions for a determined amount of time or when they have been reformed. Their housing might be along the lines of youth hostels and as there would be no pay in this society they do without wants but needs would of course be met. There would be some differences such as no physical abuse or putting their family through the same thing. Thoughts?

[Os Cangaceiros]

How would they interact with the world in any way similar to how their former underlings did, seeing as how now they were living in a society in which they were being put on trial for their former status? A society in which housing has presumably been collectivized and the old forms of usury presumably no longer exist as they once had?

Or would the former bourgeoisie just live in some kind of weird, "Truman Show"-type world, or...?

[Manifesto]

Valid point. I will take out the pay, as for the housing I will change it to better suit the future conditions. As I am sure it will also be mentioned, for the factories or what have you, some of the old ones would be kept that could not be updated as I have a feeling there are plenty of those.

[BIXX]

It just strikes me as kinda odd that we'd put ANYONE through that. I mean, I do believe that everything they've done is terrible, but I thought the point of the revolution was to end this kind of treatment of people? If the point of the revolution is to simply flip the roles so that the proletariat are the bourgeoisie and the bourgeoisie are the proletariat, then count me out. I wanna END OPPRESSION, not change who is being oppressed.

[Manifesto]

It just strikes me as kinda odd that we'd put ANYONE through that. I mean, I do believe that everything they've done is terrible, but I thought the point of the revolution was to end this kind of treatment of people? If the point of the revolution is to simply flip the roles so that the proletariat are the bourgeoisie and the bourgeoisie are the proletariat, then count me out. I wanna END OPPRESSION, not change who is being oppressed.
I was thinking the same thing too but it would not be some slave class thing, as if there are enough of them to even do that. It is undeniable that they have committed crimes against humanity and there should be consequences for that, all of them deny what they do is that. Maximum time would probably be ten years.

[BIXX]

I was thinking the same thing too but it would not be some slave class thing, as if there are enough of them to even do that. It is undeniable that they have committed crimes against humanity, all of them deny what they do is that. Maximum time would probably be ten years.

I still think it's wrong to put someone through the shit we've had to go through for any amount of time. I'm not saying we simply forgive them and let them so whatever they want, but just require then to work as our equals.

[Manifesto]

But...would that not be letting them get away with it by their only form of punishment to just be an equal?

[Blake's Baby]

Why do we need to 'punish' them? Have they 'sinned' against some God?

Surely 'punishment' is seeing their entire lives rendered meaningless and realising that their existence will be erased from history? We'll have won. I think we can at least avoid being total dicks about it.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

But...would that not be letting them get away with it by their only form of punishment to just be an equal?

Aye, there's the rub. The question is whether or not we're all seeking some kind of revenge / justice that somehow runs alongside the new classless society or if we are coming at it from a place of 'this is how it is now, a world of equals irrespective of past deeds' (could be argued that removing status /power /money serves as a punishment in itself).
I'm more inclined towards the latter idea for the reasons EchoShock has given; I don't want to replace the ruling class and reap a terrible revenge or see anyone do the same. It seems contrary to what we believe and strive for (apologies if a lil presumptous, I know there are other tendencies and perspectives who might disagree)

[Manifesto]

It is not even just about some revenge thing. They have caused countless deaths and stole trillions from the workers, these are crimes in any society, they are just doing it in a form they can get away with. What I mean by this is that it is not like we would be doing something new, those same rules apply. Would murder not have any sort of punishment in a communist society? Which brings up I have really not seen much or anything really about crime and punishment in a communist society, it just seems to be a blank area to be decided after the revolution.

[Blake's Baby]

You've been a member of RevLeft for 4 years and you've never seen anything about crime and punishment in a post-revolutionary society?

Do you not come here very often? There's a thread about every two weeks.

The revolution is not about revenge it's about liberation. How free is a jailor?

[Manifesto]

You've been a member of RevLeft for 4 years and you've never seen anything about crime and punishment in a post-revolutionary society?

Do you not come here very often? There's a thread about every two weeks.

The revolution is not about revenge it's about liberation. How free is a jailor?
Well I have not been around in a while but I have seen some of those threads and they all were pretty vague as far as the answers were.

[Blake's Baby]

Because it's not up to self-proclaimed 'revolutionaries' to develop blueprints that we expect the working class to carry out. How much 'detail' do you want on something that will in the future involve masses of people in public discussions?

[egalitarian]

I was discussing workers' struggles with a good friend of mine that is on this forum about how pimps are the bourgeois of the sex industry. While talking with her I came up with an idea, after a fair trial and if found guilty, the bourgeoisie should have to experience the same life they put their workers through. That means doing the same job, and in the same work conditions for a determined amount of time or when they have been reformed. Their housing might be along the lines of youth hostels and as there would be no pay in this society they do without wants but needs would of course be met. There would be some differences such as no physical abuse or putting their family through the same thing. Thoughts?

I think that the responsibility of society is to protect the people from future abuse, and then rehabilitation. Will this experience rehabilitate the criminal?

[Igor]

huh ive always thought the point was to abolish wage work and not just have a smaller minority of people doing it for basically no reason at all

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

Not to be "that guy" but no "this is the solution" is going to work for this sort of thing - if there are going to be "punishments" (probably a pretty bad framework) they will spring from specific conditions and particular bosses' relationships to emerging workers' power.

I also think it's worth noting, vis- the specific example that started this, that sex work is gendered and racialized to a great degree, greatly complicating the question in that instance. I expect similar peculiarities could be pointed out in other cases.

[Nevsky]

Sorry, but this thread seems very bizarre. The bourgeoisie and proletariat are not to abstract entities fighting each other. Bourgeoisie is a vague term for all sorts of different individual people who currently live on the priviledged side of our society, it's not one inherently evil super villain or something. Our aim is to radically change class relations, to create a just society without class priviledge. We don't want to "punish" an abstract enemy.

[Tenka]

It is somewhat perplexing to see an "Anarcho-Communist" talking about "punishing" the bourgeoisie because they "stole trillions from the workers" and did other things which "are crimes in any society".

The usual excuse for punishment today is that it supposedly helps the punished to see the error of their ways, and acts as a deterrent to future misdeeds and others behaving in the same manner. Of course that's all bollocks. And there's no need to punish people for anything, let alone for a class position from which they were recently removed.

[Brutus]

If they submit to the proletarian dictatorship, they can live as proletarians. If they support the reaction, we will do to them what we do to all reactionaries

[BIXX]

It is somewhat perplexing to see an "Anarcho-Communist" talking about "punishing" the bourgeoisie

I feel like talking about punishing people is fucking weird, I can't imagine that if wanna punish them. I'm not saying that we shouldn't lead a violent struggle against the bourgeoisie, but seriously, after a successful revolution, there is no need/reason to punish people, and I would in fact label that as reactionary.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

I'd rather punishment as due, as humane. I wouldn't want a post-revolutionary tribunal to be as brutal as a Nazi tribunal. Certainly those who have done the more terrible things would face a level of retaliation, but not all by far.
Unless, of course, we were to expose some of the 'truths' of the world such as the pathetic state of affairs in third world countries and the masses demanded them all dead. Then, in that case...

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

Although I don't necessarily agree with your solution, I DO understand your misgivings comrade. How we deal with the bourgeoisie after the revolution is often on my mind.

I am convinced that we MUST be just, fair, and merciful. I believe there are many bourgeoisie who are sympathetic to the cause and will happily take part in the new socialist society, aiding it with their own unique talents and skills. As I always say: "Remember Engels".

But there will be bourgeoisie who will run to the counter-revolution. Those individuals we will have to deal with as we must. If captured, we should be just and fair to them, using harsh justice if we must, and be merciful when mercy is best.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

Although I prefer the more flamboyant title, "The Persecution of the Bourgeoisie." Has a better, more tragic ring to it. I don't know why, but although I profess justice, I seem to have this bubbling "Kill them all" attitude beneath the surface.

[Manifesto]

Because it's not up to self-proclaimed 'revolutionaries' to develop blueprints that we expect the working class to carry out. How much 'detail' do you want on something that will in the future involve masses of people in public discussions?
Which is why this is posted in THEORY and you just went back on what you previously said. I said how it was an empty slate you said go look at other threads then you admit that there would not be any specifics because it is for people after the revolution to decide that I said in the first place.

It is somewhat perplexing to see an "Anarcho-Communist" talking about "punishing" the bourgeoisie because they "stole trillions from the workers" and did other things which "are crimes in any society".

The usual excuse for punishment today is that it supposedly helps the punished to see the error of their ways, and acts as a deterrent to future misdeeds and others behaving in the same manner. Of course that's all bollocks. And there's no need to punish people for anything, let alone for a class position from which they were recently removed.
I thought of this last night and thought it was interesting so I posted it, obviously that does not make it part of my ideology. An idea to discuss.

This is not simply punish them for being the ruling class. But being the cause of murder and poverty on a massive scale.

[Quail]

I don't see why we would punish them. As has already been said, a revolution is not about some kind of petty revenge against the ruling class, it's about freedom and equality to allow all human beings to thrive and live up to their potential.

[Ele'ill]

I'd rather them live free to watch as their position of domination tumbles down as all their stuff gets set on fire

[BIXX]

Like Mari3l said, I'd just want them to realize that their time of ruling over us has come to an end. Imagine the Koch brothers, watching their corporate empire crumbling under the weight of revolution.

[BIXX]

This is not simply punish them for being the ruling class. But being the cause of murder and poverty on a massive scale.

Ignore punishing them- after a successful revolution, what good would punishment be other than petty revenge?

Now, DURING and BEFORE a revolution, I see no problem with the deaths of the bourgeoisie, but afterwards they wouldn't be bourgeoisie anymore so it's pointless.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

Man, for some reason, I'm still up for bourgeois genocide... I can't shake the feeling for some reason! Maybe I'm just in an odd state of mind right now.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

See, now I can't fathom the thought of punishing something we arbitrarily label as 'class'. And that was change of just a few minutes. The doctor was wrong- I must be bipolar/schizo.

[Manifesto]

Ignore punishing them- after a successful revolution, what good would punishment be other than petty revenge?

Now, DURING and BEFORE a revolution, I see no problem with the deaths of the bourgeoisie, but afterwards they wouldn't be bourgeoisie anymore so it's pointless.
That is inconsistent though. Their deaths are ok for that time but post revolution a karma kind of punishment is too harsh?

[Manifesto]

See, now I can't fathom the thought of punishing something we arbitrarily label as 'class'. And that was change of just a few minutes. The doctor was wrong- I must be bipolar/schizo.
Not exactly bipolar but something.

Man, for some reason, I'm still up for bourgeois genocide... I can't shake the feeling for some reason! Maybe I'm just in an odd state of mind right now.
A genocide is going pretty far.

[Lucretia]

Another example of an anarchist reducing revolutionary politics to moralism. Ubiquitous on this forum. Bad bourgeoisie! Naughty, naughty bourgeoisie! You get 30 lashes!

[Quail]

Another example of an anarchist reducing revolutionary politics to moralism. Ubiquitous on this forum. Bad bourgeoisie! Naughty, naughty bourgeoisie! You get 30 lashes!

This is just unnecessary tendency baiting. Besides, clearly not all anarchists think the bourgeoisie need to be punished as several of us have articulated.

[Lucretia]

This is just unnecessary tendency baiting. Besides, clearly not all anarchists think the bourgeoisie need to be punished as several of us have articulated.

Not all of them moralize on this particular issue, but then I never said they did.

[BIXX]

I thought of this last night and thought it was interesting so I posted it, obviously that does not make it part of my ideology. An idea to discuss.

Then why are you advocating it?


That is inconsistent though. Their deaths are ok for that time but post revolution a karma kind of punishment is too harsh?

I'm sorry, I didn't explain my position well- during a revolution, while the bourgeoisie are trying to resist the revolution, then if their deaths are required/help ensure the success of the revolution, then I see no problem. But when their deaths would only serve to satisfy what you refer to as "karma kind of punishment" (this wording is a flat out lying, it is trying to say that they deserve that punishment due to some imbalance in the universe), then no, I don't support this punishment.

I would again support the death of those participating in a counter-revolution, but as soon as that counter-revolution is stopped, we MUST NOT punish those who tried to participate, if any of them remain. If we were to punish them, we would simply be encouraging counter-revolution.

Also, seeing as you are advocating hierarchy, take "Anarcho-" out of your ideology.

[Ele'ill]

Not all of them moralize on this particular issue, but then I never said they did.

anarchists on this forum have put up with other tendencies that they strongly dislike and oppose for years (as is the case with other tendencies too) without much of any collective response from 'the anarchists' aside from conversation and leaving the forum because the conversation was so god damned repetitively boring but when anarchists on this forum have started posting more recently certain users from certain tendencies lose their fucking mind and travel from thread to thread posting the most diluted generalized strawman barely-sentences that are so off topic they should probably never have even been thought up let alone posted in fractured-mind format. If you have something to actually add to the discussion so that I can participate please post it

[Lucretia]

anarchists on this forum have put up with other tendencies that they strongly dislike and oppose for years (as is the case with other tendencies too) without much of any collective response from 'the anarchists' aside from conversation and leaving the forum because the conversation was so god damned repetitively boring but when anarchists on this forum have started posting more recently certain users from certain tendencies lose their fucking mind and travel from thread to thread posting the most diluted generalized strawman barely-sentences that are so off topic they should probably never have even been thought up let alone posted in fractured-mind format. If you have something to actually add to the discussion so that I can participate please post it

Apart from whining about my post, in which I did actually add an observation into the discussion that I think is quite important (that lacking any rigorous materialist analysis of politics, anarchists tend to fall back time and again onto undertheorized moral categories), I don't really see what your post adds. Perhaps you can inform me.

[The Feral Underclass]

Lucretia is just at odds with himself after he got his ass kicked in the militant anti-fascism thread. This is a person who condones the murder of anarchists, but doesn't think we should use violence against fascists.

[Lucretia]

Lucretia is just at odds with himself after he got his ass kicked in the militant anti-fascism thread. This is a person who condones the murder of anarchists, but doesn't think we should use violence against fascists.

You're pissed I stopped responding to you in that thread, since I have come to the realization that trying to have an exchange of political ideas with you is a waste of time. So you come to this thread and start telling lies about how I "condone the murder of anarchists" (which you have no basis for claiming) and am "opposed to violence against fascists" (similarly baseless)? Anybody who wants to see what a childish little wanker you are can go to that thread and look for any remark remotely resembling your claim that I am categorically opposed to violence against fascists, then can look for any comment I made about violence against anarchists. They won't find any such remarks, because they're the fevered inventions of your warped mind as you carry on your decade-long moral crusade against "the Trotskyists." Which now consists of following them from thread to thread and trying to derail the existing discussions there.

Grow up, before I choose to put you on ignore altogether. Then even stalking me and waylaying threads won't get me to read your rubbish.

[The Feral Underclass]

You're pissed I stopped responding to you in that thread

Yes exactly. Your tantrum was frustrating.


since I have come to the realization that trying to have an exchange of political ideas with you is a waste of time.

Convenient.


So you come to this thread and start telling lies about how I "condone the murder of anarchists" (which you have no basis for claiming) and am "opposed to violence against fascists" (similarly baseless)?

I came in this thread to read the discussion, only to find that you had attempted to troll some anarchists.


Anybody who wants to see what a childish little wanker you are can go to that thread and look for any remark remotely resembling your claim that I am categorically opposed to violence against fascists, then can look for any comment I made about violence against anarchists.

I think that constitutes a flame, dear boy. I seem to have gotten to you.

And sure, I invite people to go and read the thread. You make some overtures about violence to make yourself sound reasonable, but fundamentally you're a liberal.

On the anarchist front, you're guilty by association.


They won't find any such remarks

Untrue.


because they're the fevered inventions of your warped mind as you carry on your decade-long moral crusade against "the Trotskyists." Which now consists of following them from thread to thread and trying to derail the existing discussions there.

Don't flatter yourself, Lucreature. I respond to shit. Since you speak nothing but, I thought I should offer my insights into why you have attempted to derail this thread by trolling anarchists.

I also find it somewhat hypocritical of you to accuse me of a crusade against Trots (I don't deny it), when you are so willing to troll anarchists at any given opportunity.


Grow up, before I choose to put you on ignore altogether. Then even stalking me and waylaying threads won't get me to read your rubbish.

If growing up means that I am more like you, I'd rather stay the way I am, thanks. Someone help me if I ever turn into such an uptight douche! But if you can't handle my criticism against you, feel free to put me on ignore.

Tschüssie.

[Lucretia]

Yes exactly. Your tantrum was frustrating.



Convenient.



I came in this thread to read the discussion, only to find that you had attempted to troll some anarchists.



I think that constitutes a flame, dear boy. I seem to have gotten to you.

And sure, I invite people to go and read the thread. You make some overtures about violence to make yourself sound reasonable, but fundamentally you're a liberal.

On the anarchist front, you're guilty by association.



Untrue.



Don't flatter yourself, Lucreature. I respond to shit. Since you speak nothing but, I thought I should offer my insights into why you have attempted to derail this thread by trolling anarchists.

I also find it somewhat hypocritical of you to accuse me of a crusade against Trots (I don't deny it), when you are so willing to troll anarchists at any given opportunity.



If growing up means that I am more like you, I'd rather stay the way I am, thanks. Someone help me if I ever turn into such an uptight douche! But if you can't handle my criticism against you, feel free to put me on ignore.

Tschüssie.

Like most anarchists, you talk a good game about opposing states and hierarchies and the like, but you are quite the little authoritarian when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of practice. We see it on full display here. Annoyed that you can't make me respond to your nonsense in the anti-fascist thread, you honestly seem to think you can force me to continue the discussion by making all sorts of patently untrue and deliberately provocative comments over here. You can't, and you won't.

I have no interest in having any additional discussion with you. Let other posters, anarchist or Trotskyist or whatever, venture down to the revleft cesspool to deal with you. My posts to you on this forum speak for themselves, and I don't feel so insecure about them that I go venturing from thread to thread exclaiming how "I WON! I WON!" Any posters interested in seeking out the veracity of your claims that I "condone killing anarchists" and am categorically opposed to violence against fascists can simply go to the thread in question and see for themselves.

Rest assured that your last exchange with me has just ended, because you are now on ignore.

Enjoy :lol:

Oh, and now back to your regularly scheduled program, which is the moralizing desire of some anarchist to "punish" the bourgeoisie for being naughty.

[The Feral Underclass]

Like most anarchists, you talk a good game about opposing states and hierarchies and the like, but you are quite the little authoritarian when it comes down to the nuts and bolts of practice. We see it on full display here. Annoyed that you can't make me respond to your nonsense in the anti-fascist thread, you honestly seem to think you can force me to continue the discussion by making all sorts of patently untrue and deliberately provocative comments over here. You can't, and you won't.

I'm not trying to make you do anything hun, I'm merely pointing out that your attitude is indicative of someone who is pouting.

I don't care if you engage with me. In fact, my post in this thread wasn't even directed at you. You're the one who chose to respond to it with your standard "I don't need to talk to you because blah blah blah."

You don't want to talk to me because you think I'm an idiot. We get it. I would suggest you actually stop talking to me then.


I have no interest in having any additional discussion with you.

So you keep saying, yet here we are.


Let other posters, anarchist or Trotskyist or whatever, venture down to the revleft cesspool to deal with you. My posts to you on this forum speak for themselves, and I don't feel so insecure about them that I go venturing from thread to thread exclaiming how "I WON! I WON!"...and am categorically opposed to violence against fascists can simply go to the thread in question and see for themselves.

You realise that I have only mentioned it in one other thread, right?


Any posters interested in seeking out the veracity of your claims that I "condone killing anarchists"

So you condemn Trotsky's repressive methods against anarchists in Russia and the Ukraine?


Rest assured that that will be the only discussions you'll have with me, because you are now on ignore.

Pay heed everyone. This is a man who can't take criticism.


Enjoy :lol:

You'll be back. They always are.


Oh, and now back to your regularly scheduled program, which is the moralizing desire of some anarchist to "punish" the bourgeoisie for being naughty.

Actually, most anarchists reject punitive justice.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

Ah, I love the smell of leftists arguing in the morning!

[The Feral Underclass]

Ah, I love the smell of leftists arguing in the morning!

I'm not a leftist.

[Ele'ill]

Oh, and now back to your regularly scheduled program,

of lucretia whinging on for attention about how some specifically only anarchists do something bad




which is the moralizing desire of some anarchist to "punish" the bourgeoisie for being naughty.

can you actually supply the thread with quotes from users and describe why you disagree with their position because what you've been posting in this thread is even less adequate than people with dodgy praxis

i

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

Look, realistically, it's unlikely that there won't be an exaggerated witch hunt for bourgeois/ruling class peoples and anyone descendant from them/related to them will very likely be chastised and oppressed in society. In most places, at least. In some, it might be more humane. In others... Guang Xi anyone? (http://horrorhomework.com/blog/2012/06/cannibalism-in-china-during-cultural-revolution/) Heeheeheh...
Y'know, I'm starting to think I'm actually the most unhinged person here. I actually feel like condoning this right now.

[mybloodisred]

I actually thought about this for a bit. And it is a divisive dilemma in my mind.

These people have been living on the backs of others for years, some their whole lives, and some families for generations. If they were decent human beings at some point they wouldn't have played the game, but they did, cause they had good cards. Hopefully the tables will turn and then all the qualities they possess: greed, ability to fuck over others, indifference, ignorance, etc. become useless. We don't need "businessmen" and "lawyers".

So what I say is... fuck 'em. I'm not going to personally execute people because I'm not a fan of killing, but if others want to, that's their prerogative. In my eyes these people don't deserve a life. If not execution then hard labor for the rest of their days. Otherwise these people will jump on the opportunity to sabotage the revolution or destroy the way of life after a revolution. Can people change? Sure. Should they be given a chance to? Maybe, maybe not.

At any point these people could have given up their lifestyle and helped those in need. It would only cost $78 billion to end world hunger, right now. So many billionaires, yet they can't put together that sum to save every hungry human being from starving. The rich aren't humans, they're parasites.

So, my position is that I wouldn't kill them, but I wouldn't really do anything to stop them from being killed. Unless they are children. Only assholes kill children.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

I actually thought about this for a bit. And it is a divisive dilemma in my mind.

These people have been living on the backs of others for years, some their whole lives, and some families for generations. If they were decent human beings at some point they wouldn't have played the game, but they did, cause they had good cards. Hopefully the tables will turn and then all the qualities they possess: greed, ability to fuck over others, indifference, ignorance, etc. become useless. We don't need "businessmen" and "lawyers".

So what I say is... fuck 'em. I'm not going to personally execute people because I'm not a fan of killing, but if others want to, that's their prerogative. In my eyes these people don't deserve a life. If not execution then hard labor for the rest of their days. Otherwise these people will jump on the opportunity to sabotage the revolution or destroy the way of life after a revolution. Can people change? Sure. Should they be given a chance to? Maybe, maybe not.

At any point these people could have given up their lifestyle and helped those in need. It would only cost $78 billion to end world hunger, right now. So many billionaires, yet they can't put together that sum to save every hungry human being from starving. The rich aren't humans, they're parasites.

So, my position is that I wouldn't kill them, but I wouldn't really do anything to stop them from being killed. Unless they are children. Only assholes kill children.
Meh, too forgiving. Edit: BTW, I'm writing a story about what if one of 'em actually did that, about a very young empress who wields nearly a quadrillion dollars and does exactly that (without too much help, however...) (http://www.revleft.com/vb/mother-meki-my-t181450/index.html) How would you respond if one of the ultra-super rich gave their entire wealth to the poor? Would you defend them if they were suddenly horribly and brutally tortured?
Meh, I wouldn't.

[mybloodisred]

How would you respond if one of the ultra-super rich gave their entire wealth to the poor? Would you defend them if they were suddenly horribly and brutally tortured?

Of course. If they did it before the revolution, before they "had to" it shows a good character. We don't choose the family in which we're born, or the circumstances of our birth, but we do choose what we do with our life. No one should be punished for the things one cannot control.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

Of course. If they did it before the revolution, before they "had to" it shows a good character. We don't choose the family in which we're born, or the circumstances of our birth, but we do choose what we do with our life. No one should be punished for the things one cannot control.

Meh, still wouldn't.

[BIXX]

Although I prefer the more flamboyant title, "The Persecution of the Bourgeoisie." Has a better, more tragic ring to it. I don't know why, but although I profess justice, I seem to have this bubbling "Kill them all" attitude beneath the surface.


Man, for some reason, I'm still up for bourgeois genocide... I can't shake the feeling for some reason! Maybe I'm just in an odd state of mind right now.


See, now I can't fathom the thought of punishing something we arbitrarily label as 'class'. And that was change of just a few minutes. The doctor was wrong- I must be bipolar/schizo.


Look, realistically, it's unlikely that there won't be an exaggerated witch hunt for bourgeois/ruling class peoples and anyone descendant from them/related to them will very likely be chastised and oppressed in society. In most places, at least. In some, it might be more humane. In others... Guang Xi anyone? (http://horrorhomework.com/blog/2012/06/cannibalism-in-china-during-cultural-revolution/) Heeheeheh...
Y'know, I'm starting to think I'm actually the most unhinged person here. I actually feel like condoning this right now.


Meh, too forgiving. Edit: BTW, I'm writing a story about what if one of 'em actually did that, about a very young empress who wields nearly a quadrillion dollars and does exactly that (without too much help, however...) (http://www.revleft.com/vb/mother-meki-my-t181450/index.html) How would you respond if one of the ultra-super rich gave their entire wealth to the poor? Would you defend them if they were suddenly horribly and brutally tortured?
Meh, I wouldn't.



2edgy4me


Anyway, I just feel that PUNISHMENT isn't a good way to go. Suppressing a counter-revolution is fine, and violent revolution is fine. I don't see the problem with those.

[Tenka]

That is inconsistent though. Their deaths are ok for that time but post revolution a karma kind of punishment is too harsh?

Karma is nonsense, especially this warped notion of the Western warped notion of Karma, which looks like a faceless deity meting out retributive justice.

And punishing the former bourgies for all the death and poverty they caused because of their class is punishing them for their class, of which they are, after this hypothetical revolution, no longer a part. I don't see why we should even be thinking about anything "post-revolution", let alone punishment of PEOPLE for pre-revolution class positions--or crimes, as you might prefer to phrase it. It's doubtful any actual former bourgeoisie will not have died of old age by the time "post-revolution" comes around anyway. I have a conception of socialist revolution as more than the moment of the proletariat seizing power for itself.

[Skyhilist]

They wont be allowed to stay out past 9 on school nights

[BIXX]

They wont be allowed to stay out past 9 on school nights

Well, I mean, duh. That's a given :laugh:

[blake 3:17]

My greatest hope is to be delivered from the spirit of revenge.

[Ele'ill]

My greatest hope is to be delivered from the spirit of revenge.

mine is to deliver the spirit but I think our timing is probably different

[G4b3n]

Assuming we have a successful revolution in the foreseeable future, there would be no need to punish the diminishing bourgeoisie. Not only is it unnecessary, but also a characteristic of a not only authoritarian but brutal society.

[Point Blank]

Only those who have willingly supported wars or used violence to suppress the workers' movement should receive some kind of punishment, if any.

It doesn't make much sense holding all (or even most of) the bourgeois responsible for being "oppressive". They cannot choose not to be exploitative, because capitalism as a world system is structurally exploitative. Your boss can be a "good" or a "bad" person, whatever: you will always be exploited to some extent, because that's the way social relations under capitalism are.

It's not a matter of getting rid of bad guys, but of abolishing class society.

[Dialectical Wizard]

Why should we even give them a fair trail?
The fact that there is something like a bourgeoisie is a crime in itself.

[roy]

Why should we even give them a fair trail?
The fact that there is something like a bourgeoisie is a crime in itself.

all this talk of crime and punishment, not to mention trials, reminds me far too much of bourgeois society. anyway, there would be no bourgeoisie in communism. what are people gonna do, round up those who used to own the means of production before they were violently stripped of all their power? how arbitrary, I hope we can move past that kinda stuff

[Dialectical Wizard]

all this talk of crime and punishment, not to mention trials, reminds me far too much of bourgeois society. anyway, there would be no bourgeoisie in communism. what are people gonna do, round up those who used to own the means of production before they were violently stripped of all their power? how arbitrary, I hope we can move past that kinda stuff


I dont care about your utopian sentiments, all i was trying to say is why waste time on trials. When it's clear that the very existence of a upper class is a crime in itself.

[roy]

I dont care about your utopian sentiments, all i was trying to say is why waste time on trials. When it's clear that the very existence of a upper class is a crime in itself.

haha im sorry my 'utopian sentiments' are below you I guess i'm not possessed of your superior Military Mind. anyway yeah I got that part then I said there won't be a bourgeoisie so voila...

[Dialectical Wizard]

haha im sorry my 'utopian sentiments' are below you I guess i'm not possessed of your superior Military Mind. anyway yeah I got that part then I said there won't be a bourgeoisie so voila...


For god's sake it's just a user name, and of course it's not a pleasant thing to go
out and kill people. But in an act of liberation this is sometimes necessary.

[roy]

For god's sake it's just a user name, and of course it's not a pleasant thing to go
out and kill people. But in an act of liberation this is sometimes necessary.

we're not talking about acts of liberation though this is about punishing the former bourgeoisie post-revolution

[Dialectical Wizard]

we're not talking about acts of liberation though this is about punishing the former bourgeoisie post-revolution



To punish the oppressors of humanity is clemency; to forgive them is cruelty.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

To punish the oppressors of humanity is clemency; to forgive them is cruelty.

Friend request imminent.

This is debate is remindin' me of 'Former People: The Final Days of the Russian Aristocracy" (by Douglas Smith).
Although, if you ask me, like I keep on saying, I couldn't care less if you gave me a 15-year old burzhui who gave all her wealth to the workers and liberated them before the revolution and willingly gave up any social status beforehand or an 60-year-old asshole who condoned violent counter-revolution to re-establish a racist, classist, misogynistic elite. It's violence and oppression and utter annihilation for all of them, no exceptions. You're born to anyone upper class, or even upper middle class, you're fucked and no one gives a shit about you. Got gang raped? Who the fuck cares! Go back to your gulag and work for 24 hours, you rich summa*****!
Because I'm a social origin hater like that.
Besides all the slapstick stuff, I am serious.


For god's sake it's just a user name, and of course it's not a pleasant thing to go
out and kill people. But in an act of liberation this is sometimes necessary.
Bah, weak. Although I wouldn't let them die quickly, if I had my way.

[Brutus]

Got gang raped? Who the fuck cares! Go back to your gulag and work for 24 hours, you rich summa*****!

Sweet mother of God!

[roy]

you know i'm not seeing much of an argument for this whole thing except some very disturbing fetishism and embarrassingly lame posturing

oh sky hedgehog whatever I see you think gang rape is 'slapstick stuff' why not fuck off and never return?

[BIXX]

Friend request imminent.

This is debate is remindin' me of 'Former People: The Final Days of the Russian Aristocracy" (by Douglas Smith).
Although, if you ask me, like I keep on saying, I couldn't care less if you gave me a 15-year old burzhui who gave all her wealth to the workers and liberated them before the revolution and willingly gave up any social status beforehand or an 60-year-old asshole who condoned violent counter-revolution to re-establish a racist, classist, misogynistic elite. It's violence and oppression and utter annihilation for all of them, no exceptions. You're born to anyone upper class, or even upper middle class, you're fucked and no one gives a shit about you. Got gang raped? Who the fuck cares! Go back to your gulag and work for 24 hours, you rich summa*****!
Because I'm a social origin hater like that.
Besides all the slapstick stuff, I am serious.


Bah, weak. Although I wouldn't let them die quickly, if I had my way.

You are acting like a fucking 12 year old rape apologist you piece of shit. Burn in hell.

By the way, to anyone who says no trial, this is POST REVOLUTION! If we decide to punish these people for the class they were BORN INTO, then we should at least have a trial. HOWEVER, saying we should punish the bourgeoisie for the class they were born into is like then saying they should force is to work 20 hrs a day for the class we were born into. So honestly, anyone who talks of punishing the bourgeoisie is just trying to make themselves feel like REVENGE is an acceptable course of action, especially for something the bourgeois person couldn't help the fact that they were born into their class.

If gulags and punishment to satisfy revenge and rape apologia and flat out murder is what the revolution will look like, then fuck the revolution.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

^ Bourgeois sentimentality if I ever saw it.
I'm not a rape apologist... as long as you're not rich.

[BIXX]

Hating you for rape apologia is not bourgeois sentiment. It's called being a fucking human.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

Hating you for rape apologia is not bourgeois sentiment. It's called being a fucking human.

Of which, the rich are not.
Your move.

[BIXX]

Of which, the rich are not.
Your move.

Post revolution there will be no rich. We will all be human you fuck.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

Post revolution there will be no rich. We will all be human you fuck.

Exactly. Now you've got it right!

[roy]

rape apologia is never acceptable. I hope you enjoyed your however many days on revleft.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

I'm surprised you're surprised by this. What, did you think everyone who barks revolution was going to want to be nice and humane?
In the real world, even if most won't outright state it, vengeance will play a role in the post-revolution world. And of course I know rape is never tolerable. What, did you actually think I seriously condoned rape or class genocide or saw the rich as inhuman vermin?
Ok, I admit, I was a bit convincing.

[BIXX]

Exactly. Now you've got it right!

That is not an argument. thats showing immaturity. There will be no poor either.


I'm surprised you're surprised by this. What, did you think everyone who barks revolution was going to want to be nice and humane?
In the real world, even if most won't outright state it, vengeance will play a role in the post-revolution world. And of course I know rape is never tolerable. What, did you actually think I seriously condoned rape or class genocide or saw the rich as inhuman vermin?
Ok, I admit, I was a bit convincing.

Joking about it is condoning it.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

That is not an argument. thats showing immaturity. There will be no poor either.



Joking about it is condoning it.

I wasn't joking either, I'm currently roleplaying. My apologies if it became a bit too distressing and offensive.
Around the time I first joined, I believe I mentioned that I was writing a series called 'Mother Meki (http://www.revleft.com/vb/mother-meki-my-t181450/index.html).' One of the facets of Mother Meki is a group called 'Viyetists', who condone the very thing I was talking about earlier: the utter and sadistic humiliation of the rich, whom they feel racist-levels of hatred and disdain towards. But one of the problems they faced was that they were unpopular amongst the left, the socialists and communists and anarchists for how trollishly brutal they and their rhetoric were, and how they actually acted when they assumed some level of power over their defeated enemies and rivals.

Of course, we need to see how the left/anarchists would actually react to a Viyetist before we note anything about the movement. As I've seen, it's exactly as I predicted. You think I'm a troll because I played a viyetist. Just as a real viyetist would be.
Which is why I fear what would happen if they actually existed. This simply isn't a healthy fascination!

In all actuality, I'd much rather us not have to succomb to violent revolution or punishment in the first place.

Although I will not deny that I do hold some form of interest in the fate of the persecuted rich following any such revolution, since I'm just as certain that it's inevitable something like that would happen to some degree if a revolution is sweeping enough.

[BIXX]

I wasn't joking either, I'm currently roleplaying. My apologies if it became a bit too distressing and offensive.
Around the time I first joined, I believe I mentioned that I was writing a series called 'Mother Meki (http://www.revleft.com/vb/mother-meki-my-t181450/index.html).' One of the facets of Mother Meki is a group called 'Viyetists', who condone the very thing I was talking about earlier: the utter and sadistic humiliation of the rich, whom they feel racist-levels of hatred and disdain towards. But one of the problems they faced was that they were unpopular amongst the left, the socialists and communists and anarchists for how trollishly brutal they and their rhetoric were, and how they actually acted when they assumed some level of power over their defeated enemies and rivals.

Of course, we need to see how the left/anarchists would actually react to a Viyetist before we note anything about the movement. As I've seen, it's exactly as I predicted. You think I'm a troll because I played a viyetist. Just as a real viyetist would be.
Which is why I fear what would happen if they actually existed. This simply isn't a healthy fascination!

In all actuality, I'd much rather us not have to succomb to violent revolution or punishment in the first place.

Although I will not deny that I do hold some form of interest in the fate of the persecuted rich following any such revolution, since I'm just as certain that it's inevitable something like that would happen to some degree if a revolution is sweeping enough.

You're full of shit. The fact is you are trying to cover your ass for rape apologia. That's it.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

You're full of shit. The fact is you are trying to cover your ass for rape apologia. That's it.

As a viyetist would, unfortunately.
Also, this should be noted as full evidence (particularly towards my conservative grandmother) that leftists are not rape apologists as she claims they are, since she tends to believe that, should a revolution occur, things (such as rape) would be legalized and used as torture against reactionaries.
Seriously, grade C trolling. That's what it came down to. What kind of asshole would actually say rape really is good?
Relating this to the topic at large, I'm not saying that we should do anything to the losers of a revolution (whom I always felt would be the ones who were against it, not an entire class), but that such things have been done before. Hell, in China they started eating 'bourgeois class enemies.' In other words, while we should strive towards a peaceful resolve, there will be some... dark things done by those who think that vengeance can only be achieved through the barrel of a gun.

[BIXX]

You would. You and your bullshit "anti-social" crap.

[d3crypt]

Friend request imminent.

This is debate is remindin' me of 'Former People: The Final Days of the Russian Aristocracy" (by Douglas Smith).
Although, if you ask me, like I keep on saying, I couldn't care less if you gave me a 15-year old burzhui who gave all her wealth to the workers and liberated them before the revolution and willingly gave up any social status beforehand or an 60-year-old asshole who condoned violent counter-revolution to re-establish a racist, classist, misogynistic elite. It's violence and oppression and utter annihilation for all of them, no exceptions. You're born to anyone upper class, or even upper middle class, you're fucked and no one gives a shit about you. Got gang raped? Who the fuck cares! Go back to your gulag and work for 24 hours, you rich summa*****!
Because I'm a social origin hater like that.
Besides all the slapstick stuff, I am serious.


Bah, weak. Although I wouldn't let them die quickly, if I had my way.
Dude thats brutal :lol: do you take some sort of sadistic pleasure out of torturing the bourgeois?

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

Dude thats brutal :lol: do you take some sort of sadistic pleasure out of torturing the bourgeois?

Not really. Though the concept of an oppressor becoming oppressed always intrigued me, it's more to do with karma than anything.
I'd say it's because most books that deal with rich vs poor are the same "Rich are bastards, snobs, assholes who taunt the poor and tell them that they're lazy; poor rise up in revolt probably with some chisel-chinned man at the forefront; poor win, the tyrant suffers some Disney Death, the end." And fuck it if there any movies that even go that far.

Realistically, something has to come afterwards, and that's what we've been debating on this thread. Because I'm writing a novel series that deals heavily with this, especially with characters who do derive sadistic pleasure out of torturing the bourgeois, I've actually become sympathetic and I feel some fuzzy "don't say that" feeling when I hear people downtalk the rich/rich portrayed in a negative light. I blame my sympathizing with the main character.

That, and robots. And maybe telescopic thinking. Look, the point is: I can't be a viyetist (my term for this phenomenon) because I'm a transhumanist and I opt against brutality of any kind. As interesting as it might look on paper (http://www.revleft.com/vb/mother-meki-my-t181450/index.html).

Short answer, despite what some may say, no.

[d3crypt]

You're full of shit. The fact is you are trying to cover your ass for rape apologia. That's it.
He's acually writing it. I don't think he is covering up rape apology.

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

He's actually writing it. I don't think he is covering up rape apology.
Point taken.

[d3crypt]

When is the finished version of your book going to be done?

[Sky Hedgehogian Maestro]

When is the finished version of your book going to be done?

Considering that I have a lot to learn and study, probably 2015. At that's under the absolute best circumstances. If I'm actually alive, then by 2040 at the latest.

I have been writing new prompts though, most of them away from the grim psychoticness of the two I have posted (I'm beginning to realize how shizoid this story is when, in one scene, you have a royal being butchered just for being seen as a tyrant (amongst other things...), and then, in another, the same ex-royal at a party with a dancing liquid metal dragon built on Mars.
I mean, what the living fuck is going on here... But I'm interested.)

I just might have to type up the whole trilogy/quadlog.. quadrophy? quadogy? Whatever, in some early prompt version. Jack off to that one when I do it.

[BIXX]

As a viyetist would, unfortunately.

Just cause an imaginary sect from your own book would do something doesn't mean you should to.


He's acually writing it. I don't think he is covering up rape apology.


Was it when I let a machine rape me

This is from his Mother Meki thing.

I don't give a shit if he's writing about it, his writing is problematic to.

[Althusser]

Is there really a proletarian that wouldn't be a bourgeois if given the chance? People are a product of their material conditions. Smash the system, don't punish individuals for no reason. If any one was particularly sadistic or brutal, I would imagine they'd get fucked up by their ex-exploited employees like some Chinese feudal lord.

[Point Blank]

I dont care about your utopian sentiments, all i was trying to say is why waste time on trials. When it's clear that the very existence of a upper class is a crime in itself.

I don't care about trials, or moral arguments like "they deserved it" or the opposite "no, it would be inhumane!".

But punishing someone solely for their social being is irrational.

[Dialectical Wizard]

I don't care about trials, or moral arguments like "they deserved it" or the opposite "no, it would be inhumane!".

But punishing someone solely for their social being is irrational.




To hell with your bourgeois notions of irrationality, what is a moment of swift revolutionary justice compared to centuries of hunger, exploitation and deprivation?

[BIXX]

To hell with your bourgeois notions of irrationality, what is a moment of swift revolutionary justice compared to centuries of hunger, exploitation and deprivation?

I grant that during the revolution a lot of bad shot will happen to the bourgeoisie, but it doesn't make it right. I mean, I wouldn't say all bourgeoisie deserve bad shit to happen to them. Maybe people like the Koch brothers, but not all of them. But I condone violence against the bourgeoisie DURING. A revolution, unless they are class traitors.

However, after a revolution, it is fucked up to punish someone for their class which they were BORN INTO. They cannot help what their ancestors did.

[Madame Ennui]

Why does something tell me I'm going to be shocked reading this...

[Point Blank]

To hell with your bourgeois notions of irrationality, what is a moment of swift revolutionary justice compared to centuries of hunger, exploitation and deprivation?

I disagree that the notions of rationality and irrationality are bourgeois, unless they are fetishised to the point they become ideology (as in positivism).
Things like logical consistency are perfectly acceptable criteria to determine your actions. Punishing deliberate violence and repression is one thing, but punishing irresponsible actions (like "being a bourgeois", ie. extracting surplus value) when they were beyond the control of a single person is illogical.

Your "revolutionary justice" (in a post-revolution society) is, really, some kind of monstrously deformed will to power.

[Dialectical Wizard]

I disagree that the notions of rationality and irrationality are bourgeois, unless they are fetishised to the point they become ideology (as in positivism).
Things like logical consistency are perfectly acceptable criteria to determine your actions. Punishing deliberate violence and repression is one thing, but punishing irresponsible actions (like "being a bourgeois", ie. extracting surplus value) when they were beyond the control of a single person is illogical.

Your "revolutionary justice" (in a post-revolution society) is, really, some kind of monstrously deformed will to power.

Your whole argument is nothing more than bourgeois moralism which you try to disguise as reason.
Pathetic liberal rationalism, how dare you spew such nonsense on this forum!






Your "revolutionary justice" (in a post-revolution society) is, really, some kind of monstrously deformed will to power.


That’s a moral argument you idiot! My concept of revolutionary justice is not out of some sadistic pleasure or will to power.
But out of necessity, the bourgeoisie must perish so that the proletariat can prosper.

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

No. The bourgeoisie must 'perish' so that the proletariat can 'perish' too.

[Brutus]

We must abolish ourselves.

[Dialectical Wizard]

No. The bourgeoisie must 'perish' so that the proletariat can 'perish' too.


I agree an authentic egalitarian society is most favorable, but if we want to achieve such a classless society we should also not be naïve.