'Citizen' title in the first international

[Brutus]

I was reading some of Marx's speeches to the first international, and I noticed that people in the association were refered to as 'Citizen' ('Citizen Marx' for example). It seems similar to 'Comrade' that can be seen when reading the transcripts of bolshevik party congresses. Anyway, what I was wondering is whether there is a history behind the title?

[Anti-Traditional]

It's from the French revolution when the overhrew their monarch. Hench the phrase 'I'd rather be a citizen than a subject' (i.e a loyal subject of the king)

[Captain Ahab]

I'm assuming this a reference to the times of the French Revolution where people would be referred to as "citizen" in the same way we call others "comrade".

Edit: Dammit, anti-traditional beat me to it.

[Fourth Internationalist]

It sounds 100x better than comrade, which I think is such a childish-sounding word.

[Brutus]

It sounds 100x better than comrade, which I think is such a childish-sounding word.

Here's a new question: should 'Citizen' replace 'Comrade'?

[Fourth Internationalist]

Here's a new question: should 'Citizen' replace 'Comrade'?

I actually hate both; it sounds like some cult greeting. In any case, names are fine, and "Ladies and gentlemen" OR "Sir" and "Ma'am" or "Madam" are preferable in my opinion despite their bourgeoisie-ness.
Edit: or just "Friends"

[Brutus]

You're too picky! God damn it comrade/citizen/sir!

[Fourth Internationalist]

You're too picky! God damn it comrade/citizen/sir!

What about (with flamboyant voice), "Heeeeeey homies!" rather than "Greetings comrades."

[goalkeeper]

Citizen was still used in the Russian Revolution, with comrade (i think) reserved for party members, but was slowly fazed out, perhaps as "socialism" was achieved.

[blake 3:17]

In the group I was in there were frequent criticisms of "citizen" because of the ties it had to immigration status. I think that's mostly BS now. I'm in favour of a universal citizenship.

[Rafiq]

Citizen implies an existing legal state you recognize and pledge fealty to that you live in, recognition of the bourgeois state, no good. At least comrade has militant leverage, it signifies active struggle. Both have waning relavance.


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[Die Neue Zeit]

I actually hate both; it sounds like some cult greeting. In any case, names are fine, and "Ladies and gentlemen" OR "Sir" and "Ma'am" or "Madam" are preferable in my opinion despite their bourgeoisie-ness.
Edit: or just "Friends"

What about companero?

[Brutus]

What about companero?

That depends on the language being spanish- unless user name is in an area with lots of Latinos to say companero would be a bit queer.

[goalkeeper]

I think citizen has, for the most part, lost its revolutionary connotations. In Britain, even though technically we are subjects of the Queen, the term citizens is used to refer to the population in general.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

No way am I ever calling someone 'sir' or 'lady' - doesn't that defeat the intended purpose of words like 'comrade' in the first place?

Haters gonna hate, comrade.

[blake 3:17]

I tend to use "friends" with slightly different tones, depending on the situation, kind of the same with "sisters and brothers" --

None of those are actually very handy in written form. And in conversation, I will refer to people, both 'regular' people and some historical figures as "Comrade"-- I know I've referred to Lenin that way in a couple of slightly odd settings...

When I have spoken at demonstrations I have always used "Brothers and sisters" or "Sisters and brothers" as a way to address the crowd. Wish I had a tape of the whole, but mostly my, speech at the Naqba demonstration a few years back... I did rock a mic that day...

[blake 3:17]

That depends on the language being spanish- unless user name is in an area with lots of Latinos to say companero would be a bit queer.

Maybe it's more American (as in the Americas not the United Snakes) -- but I hear it a fair bit. In USFI circles, folks I like called themselves Mandelistas and even if we don't agree on anything it's cool.

But most anyone I know and respect on political issues in Canada and US has been involved in Sandanista/Zapatista work at some point...

[Red Commissar]

It sounds 100x better than comrade, which I think is such a childish-sounding word.

I'm sure there were similar criticisms from those in the radical Republican tradition who thought "citizen" was being used to death.

[Taters]

It sounds 100x better than comrade, which I think is such a childish-sounding word.

You're kidding right? Calling each other comrade is pretty much the best reason to be a communist, comrade.

[Leftsolidarity]

Fuck "citizen" and "sir" or "ma'am".

I use "comrades", "friends", or "brothers and sisters" most often.

[Geiseric]

Citizen Kane haha. No I refuse to call anybody that. Comrade should only be used in appropiate situations. Somebody is a comrade while undertaking the same task as you in a direct kind of relationship. People who refer to themselves as communists but don't really do anything aren't really comrades.

[Brutus]

I don't like 'brothers and sisters'. It sounds cult-ish.

[Leftsolidarity]

I don't like 'brothers and sisters'. It sounds cult-ish.

I feel its best used in an environment of like a community event where you definitely aren't all comrades and maybe not even know each other at all so "friends" wouldn't work that well. It has kind of a grass-rootsy feel to me.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Citizen is hopelessly outdated. I prefer comrade.

[Brutus]

What about comritizenade?

[Rugged Collectivist]

What about comritizenade?

Sounds like a sports drink. Or a weapon.

[Brutus]

The official drink of the first and second international!
For when the road to power is a marathon, try comritizenade!

[blake 3:17]

I feel its best used in an environment of like a community event where you definitely aren't all comrades and maybe not even know each other at all so "friends" wouldn't work that well. It has kind of a grass-rootsy feel to me.


It's the common language here in leftish trade unions and some movements here -- I'd refer to many people as a 'brother'/'Brother' or 'sister'/'Sister' in slightly different ways than I would a "comrade"/"Comrade". The latter designates a fairly specific Marxist position and has a caricatured and sarcastic ring to it.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Why do we need a title before a name? Or as a replacement? And why not just say "hi everyone" to a group?

[Skyhilist]

Haha I never actually use the word "comrade" irl let alone "citizen" as it's replacement. Usually with my close friends it's something like "this fucker over here", or something of the like, with love of course

[blake 3:17]

Why do we need a title before a name? Or as a replacement? And why not just say "hi everyone" to a group?

There's a lot of sense to what you say.

In certain forms of address for radicals there is a need for "This is someone committed to social change" in some kind of short form.

[Tim Cornelis]

Can you give me a link to the speech? Because the Dutch word for citizen ('burger') is synonymous for bourgeois ('burger', bourgeoisie 'burgerij'), so I'm curious how it's translated.

[Brutus]

Can you give me a link to the speech? Because the Dutch word for citizen ('burger') is synonymous for bourgeois ('burger', bourgeoisie 'burgerij'), so I'm curious how it's translated.

It's in most of Marx's speeches to the first international, but here is a speech in which it is mentioned. (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/iwma/documents/1869/inheritance-speech.htm)

[The Jay]

Citizen implies an existing legal state you recognize and pledge fealty to that you live in, recognition of the bourgeois state, no good. At least comrade has militant leverage, it signifies active struggle. Both have waning relavance.


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You beat me to it. If we called each other 'citizen' it would have a bourgeois ring to it.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Citizen was still used in the Russian Revolution, with comrade (i think) reserved for party members, but was slowly fazed out, perhaps as "socialism" was achieved.

It was phased out, like the "Workers' Marseillaise" and similar imitations of French revolutionary vocabulary, because it was used extensively by the government socialists during the Provisional Government.

I think the term has connotations of authority and police procedure in much of Eastern Europe; personally, I have nothing against the term "comrade".

[Jimmie Higgins]

In the US Socialist Party, I think they made a semi-formal decision to use "comrade" because "brother/sister" was associated with the trade union movement and "friend" was associated with Christians.

I don't remember any mention of Citizen. At any rate, I wouldn't be a big fan of citizen... it sounds right-wing (patriot movement and so on, not to mention it would suck to have to explain that you don't mean legal citizen when addressing people) and no less strange than "comrade" as far as being antiquated and out of common use. It also sounds more formal. I generally only use comrade amongst comrades. I use "folks" and sometimes "friend" if just talking to or about some random people who are not radicals.

[Comrade #138672]

Why do we need a title before a name? Or as a replacement? And why not just say "hi everyone" to a group?Why don't we just drop the classes. Why don't we just talk about people exploiting people, and some people fighting against the people exploiting the people, while other people are fighting against the people who are fighting against the people who are exploiting the people? And then there are people who are fighting against these people. It's just people. Aren't we all the same?

I think labels can be important.

[soso17]

Citizen is a relic from post-French revolution, when being a citizen was much better than being a serf. Nowadays it has a bourgeois nation-state connotation.

Sisters and brothers points out sex/gender, unnecessarily IMHO. Comrade is a "leveller", paying no mind to differences.

I think the history of the term's use is an asset, not a liability.

Comradely yours,
soso

[Q]

Here's a new question: should 'Citizen' replace 'Comrade'?
The trouble with that is that 'citizen' has a very bourgeois message attached to it. In Dutch for example its even the same word: bourgeois = 'burgerij' while citizen = 'burger'. It would just confuse everyone.

[Brutus]

The trouble with that is that 'citizen' has a very bourgeois message attached to it. In Dutch for example its even the same word: bourgeois = 'burgerij' while citizen = 'burger'. It would just confuse everyone.

Tim mentioned this already. :)

[Q]

Tim mentioned this already. :)
And I completely missed that :p

[Tim Cornelis]

I still don't know how 'citizen' in First International speeches was translated to Dutch though. Couldn't find it...

[Tower of Bebel]

Can you give me a link to the speech? Because the Dutch word for citizen ('burger') is synonymous for bourgeois ('burger', bourgeoisie 'burgerij'), so I'm curious how it's translated.
The historic lineage between the Dutch/German words burger (citizen, free man capable of defending the town) and burch/burcht (independent town or city defended by stone walls) and their French counterparts bourgeois and bourg, made the Dutch and flemish socialist movement use the word gezel (fellow, companion, ..), while the Germans used and still use Genosse (companion, colleague, ..).

[Point Blank]

Of course they would use the French Revolutionary vocabulary.

From the opening chapter of The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte:

The tradition of all dead generations weighs like a nightmare on the brains of the living. And just as they seem to be occupied with revolutionizing themselves and things, creating something that did not exist before, precisely in such epochs of revolutionary crisis they anxiously conjure up the spirits of the past to their service, borrowing from them names, battle slogans, and costumes in order to present this new scene in world history in time-honored disguise and borrowed language.

Speaking of comrade (in English and in languages which use a word with the same etymology), doesn't it have too much of a militarist flavour?

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

Citizen is a relic from post-French revolution, when being a citizen was much better than being a serf. Nowadays it has a bourgeois nation-state connotation.

Sisters and brothers points out sex/gender, unnecessarily IMHO. Comrade is a "leveller", paying no mind to differences.

I think the history of the term's use is an asset, not a liability.

Comradely yours,
soso
You know, I quite agree. I've always liked the use of the word comrade because - in my conception of the word at least - it's a fairly universal term for those who are with us so to speak. I personally don't attach any militaristic slant to the word (I might be in a minority, who knows) and to me, it means companionship and a shared purpose.