The greatest country our universe has ever seen...

[Aram]

...is bringing liberty, Liberal Democracy, hope and prosperity to the Middle East starting with Iraq. How do you guys feel about that fact considering your ideology in general and your irrational hatered for this great country in particular?

[Pete]

Rhetoric won't bring you anything. America only said it went to bring democracy after it became clear the WMD excuse was going to fall apart. They were pulling straws, and so far they have yet to get the lucky one.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

http://imageshack.us/files/barney.gif

[Aram]

Rhetoric won't bring you anything. America only said it went to bring democracy after it became clear the WMD excuse was going to fall apart. They were pulling straws, and so far they have yet to get the lucky one.



WRONG! Bush talked about it in many speeches before and after the invasion. Go recheck the State of the Union address. It details Saddam's crimes against the Iraqi people among many reasons for removing him, and it was decided before the war that Iraq would be rebuilt by the US.

[Pete]

I did not say he didn't use it before the invasion, I said he used it after his first plan fell apart. He simply changed course and said 'We must get rid of Saddam and bring democracy because he killed his people brutally 15 years ago' but left out this part 'when we were his staunch allies and rumsfeld was selling him WMD to use on the Iranians and his pesky revolting kurds!'

America must take its share of the blame if that arguement is to be used.

[El Brujo]

The worse country our universe has ever seen is bringing oppression, liberal bourgeoisie "democracy", Zionism and despair to the Middle East starting with Iraq. How do you guys feel about that fact considering your ideology in general and your irrational love for this shit country in particular?

[redstar2000]

The greatest country our universe has ever seen...

No false modesty here. Yesterday: Afghanistan! Today: Iraq! Tomorrow: the universe!

Clearly, those with imperial ambitions should not use cocaine or other strong stimulents...if they do, they go completely off the charts.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Aram]

America must take its share of the blame if that arguement is to be used.



America, TODAY, is taking care of business and spreading Liberty, Democracy and Capitalism. Saddam's Baath pan-Arab Socialist sorry ass is in jail.

How does that make you feel?

[Vinny Rafarino]

In the immortal words of Cleo McDowell from the 80's smash hit "Coming to America".....



I FEEL LIKE BREAK DANCIN'!

[El Brujo]

Welcome back Comrade RAF.

[Sam Adams]

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jcapshaw/iwo%20jima%202.jpg

America rules

[Aram]

Yes Sam, it certainly does. :D

[Sam Adams]

And the pitiful whining of a few freedom hating socialists isnt going to change that fact.

[Aram]

Oh, how long can you people keep up the denial? How long can you keep yourself blind to the facts? When will you be able to explain the fact that even poor people in the US have it better than the vast majority of people in socialist countries? How long will you remain blind to the way America broke your beloved Communism in the Soviet Union? How long will you ignore the fact that "Red China" has adopted Capitalism (allthough they've unfortunately kept up the political repression part)? Or that Cuba is a hellhole that people are dying to leave like rats on a sinking ship?


A funny thing is that Lebanon (a haven of Bourgeouise Democracy and Capitalism before the Civil War) even today, after the civil war, still has a higher GDP/Capita than Baath Socialist Syria (its occupier). Socialism, in any form, does not work.

[Pete]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 07:10 PM

America must take its share of the blame if that arguement is to be used.



America, TODAY, is taking care of business and spreading Liberty, Democracy and Capitalism. Saddam's Baath pan-Arab Socialist sorry ass is in jail.

How does that make you feel?
I think this is a doctrine called 'change of course.' Perhaps Rumsfeld, Regan, Bush I, and their crew should all be in jail too for aiding and albetting the crimes?

Don't dodge the point I was making. Your nation changed its reason after its orginal one fell apart, it calls into serious question any future reasoning they bring about. You should be offended your leader lied to you.

We admitt china is not red. I doubt many people here will argue withthat.

The CCCP fell due to internal problems starting in the Kruschev era.

Cuba is not a hellhole, and the only reason why people resort to dingies is because of the propaganda coming from flordia, and america not making good of its promise to let those people go over legally. You can't look at the situation from one side, and ignore the base cause. That is like saying 9-11 was a complete fluke, that it was not a backdraft of American foriegn policy. It is ignorance.

Socialism cares less about GDP than human conditoins. Money is not everything, pull your head out of your ass and see that.

-Pete

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 01:01 AM
...Money is not everything...

-Pete
Ok, it's official. These guys are insane.

What planet are you guys from? It's def not earth.

[Pete]

I have something I like to call 'ethics' and 'morals' and I see the human condition as more important than any form of wealth, except if you consider wealth to be a stable human condition. Human condition, in the sense I am refering to it, is the general welfare of everyone, not just those with money, but those with out it. If one person must work hard to stay alive, and a nother must work a lot less but has a lot more luxaries then the human condition is being failed.

The question should be this: where do you heartless bastards come from?

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 01:08 AM
I have something I like to call 'ethics' and 'morals' and I see the human condition as more important than any form of wealth, except if you consider wealth to be a stable human condition. Human condition, in the sense I am refering to it, is the general welfare of everyone, not just those with money, but those with out it. If one person must work hard to stay alive, and a nother must work a lot less but has a lot more luxaries then the human condition is being failed.

The question should be this: where do you heartless bastards come from?
I also would like everyone to have the opportunity to provide for there families. I have no probem with supporting a social(ist) plans that provide for people that are unable to work due to injuries or handicaps. I do have a problem with social(ist) programs that provide for lazy people that do not even try to better themselves. But I don't think that switching to a system that has killed millions of people will ever happen, or work.

Im not heartless. I am the sole supporter of 3 children ages 4 - 7 - 13 that are not even mine. I put a roof over their head, food in their mouths, and clothes on their backs. At the same time I am helping their mother finish her nursing degree. If it wasn't for capitalists assholes like me they might be on the street...

[Aram]

I think this is a doctrine called 'change of course.' Perhaps Rumsfeld, Regan, Bush I, and their crew should all be in jail too for aiding and albetting the crimes?

The first Bush kicked Saddam's ass. Rumsfeld was just a diplomat doing his job. He didn't set policy. Reagan was doing a lot of things wrong granted, but he was trying to do his best in a difficult situation. The Cold War was very complicated. Fortunately, the current regime understands that it was a mistake to tolerate and aid dictators in the name of "stability". 9/11 showed that stability is not what you get out of it.


"Don't dodge the point I was making. Your nation changed its reason after its orginal one fell apart, it calls into serious question any future reasoning they bring about. You should be offended your leader lied to you."

The WMD reason was pushed hard at first only because it was the only thing that they could go to the UN with. Once that fell through and the war was on, they didn't need to keep that up as the main reason.


"We admitt china is not red. I doubt many people here will argue withthat."

Didn't really think so.


"The CCCP fell due to internal problems starting in the Kruschev era."

I'd say starting in 1917. :)

They didn't have the economic strength to keep up the pace in the arms race. During the late 70s and early 80s new modern tanks, fighters and other military hardware (M1 tanks, M2 Bradley IFVs, F15s, F16s, MLRS) that were superior to those of the Soviet Union were introduced in large numbers. That was a big part in what broke them.


"Cuba is not a hellhole, and the only reason why people resort to dingies is because of the propaganda coming from flordia, and america not making good of its promise to let those people go over legally. You can't look at the situation from one side, and ignore the base cause. That is like saying 9-11 was a complete fluke, that it was not a backdraft of American foriegn policy. It is ignorance."

9/11 was only related to US foreign policy in that the US had not dealt with the threat earlier but had ignored it or even tried to use it at times.


"Socialism cares less about GDP than human conditoins. Money is not everything, pull your head out of your ass and see that."

Human conditions are better in capitalist countries. They combine material wealth and individual freedom on a level that the world has never known before in history.

[lucid]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 01:01 AM
Cuba is not a hellhole, and the only reason why people resort to dingies is because of the propaganda coming from flordia, and america not making good of its promise to let those people go over legally. You can't look at the situation from one side, and ignore the base cause. That is like saying 9-11 was a complete fluke, that it was not a backdraft of American foriegn policy. It is ignorance.

See Aram,

The cubans are using high tech mind control devices that make Cubans Hollucinate. They are just imagining that there power, if they have it, gets cut off a dark most nights. They are just imaging that their meat is cut with soy and barely has any meat in it at all. They are just imaging things when they wake up in the middle of the night and have to walk down 20 flights of stairs to get outside of there building and take a leak. They are just imaging that there Cuban friends from Florida are sending them money monthly so they can survive. These florida Cubans are sneaky as hell! They even use propoganda when they get into Florida to help them keep their cover. Like the lady that I worked with that used to break down crying because she knows she will never see her family again.

People are fucking stupid if they think Cuba is paradise. They obviously have never been there.

[Aram]

Lucid,

Are you dumb? I was quoting Pete.

[lucid]

I quoted pete to.

Don't you know sarcasm when you hear it =]

[Aram]

Sorry then, but reread your post. You sound like you are attacking me.

[lucid]

That better :D

[Xprewatik RED]

I like the American talking about a poor american worker having it better off than a Soviet. Truth is if your a factory laborer you would rather be in the USSR. With :free school, free medicine, best schools in the WORLD, chep transport, rationed goods meaning it might take a while but you will still get your basic needs, free housing, guarenteed pensions, college for the kids, no unemployment, no risk of homelessness, no crime, pride, no drugs in school, it had its bad sides but looking back capitalism is alot worse.

[redstar2000]

In a way, our defenders of capitalism live--at least for the moment--in a "dream world".

They have been fortunate thus far in life and they honestly believe that this is the norm.

It isn't...and mostly likely they will make some very painful discoveries in the future.

The most painful lesson that they will learn is uncertainty...and the anxiety that every knowledgeable person feels about that condition.

They will learn to worry...about all the thousands of mis-haps and "bad breaks" that capitalism holds for the unwary.

Today you have a great job with a terrific future, a beautiful home in a nice neighborhood, a loving spouse and one or more terrific kids, etc., etc., etc.

Tomorrow, it can all be gone! In three to six months, everything can come unraveled, disintegrate, crumble into dust.

And it doesn't have to be because of anything you did or failed to do.

Someone 10,000 miles away who doesn't know your name or anything about you decided that your whole division was not profitable enough to keep operating.

You discover that all your painfully-acquired expertise is no longer "marketable".

The minimum-wage job that you are forced to take is not enough to make your car payments, your credit-card payments, your house payments.

You fight with your spouse over money; she leaves and takes the kids. The bank takes your house; the auto dealer repossesses your car. You file for bankruptcy.

You start drinking heavily; soon, even a minimum-wage job is more than you can handle.

You end up a hopeless piece of "human garbage" on the "mean streets".

From "middle class" to "homeless bum" in less than a year.

Under capitalism, just when you think you "have it made"...the bottom falls out and the wheels fall off.

I know, you think that will never happen to you--you're "too smart" and "too capable" and "too whatever".

Every single one of the people you see on the street and try to avoid looking at...they thought that too.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Bradyman]

Im not heartless. I am the sole supporter of 3 children ages 4 - 7 - 13 that are not even mine. I put a roof over their head, food in their mouths, and clothes on their backs. At the same time I am helping their mother finish her nursing degree. If it wasn't for capitalists assholes like me they might be on the street...

That is very nice of you, and believe it or not, that is the "socialist asshole" that you are displaying by doing those actions. As a capitalist point of view, you would see those kids as taking away from your profits, and thus choose not to help them.

But you, as I, feel that it isn't fair for children to have to suffer for things outside their control, mainly poverty. Clearly, your goals to help others is very similiar to ours, you just don't realize that we are just as compassionate as you are.


When will you be able to explain the fact that even poor people in the US have it better than the vast majority of people in socialist countries? How long will you remain blind to the way America broke your beloved Communism in the Soviet Union?

I love the fact that the reason why the poor people in America have it so "good" is because of socialist measures that have been instituted in American politics.

[Vinny Rafarino]

I am the sole supporter of 3 children ages 4 - 7 - 13 that are not even mine



dipshit.

[lucid]

Originally posted by COMRADE [email protected] 10 2004, 03:44 AM

I am the sole supporter of 3 children ages 4 - 7 - 13 that are not even mine



dipshit.
:rolleyes:

[(*]

The greatest country our universe has ever seen...

Aram, how many other countries have you visited and/or lived in?

[ComradeRed]

what about sweden and norway? Norway has the best living conditions in the world and guess what - they're SOCIALIST!

[Rasta Sapian]

liberty must look brilliant, when you are living at the centre of the universe! :P

peace yall

[Aram]

redstar,

Don't assume that you know other people's situation and their thoughts. My family has been poorer than you care to imagine at one point. Allthough that was mostly because of civil war and being refugees.




(*:


Aram, how many other countries have you visited and/or lived in?

I've lived in Lebanon, Syria, Sweden, the USA, and now I'm back in Sweden. I'm a Swedish citizen (since 1989), but as I'm sure you've gathered I'm a huge fan of the US of A. :)

[Hiero]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 01:18 AM
I do have a problem with social(ist) programs that provide for lazy people that do not even try to better themselves.
I just love that cliche attack on communism. The way some capitalist think that communism is just one big conspiracy created by lazy people to be implemented for lazy people so they can always be lazy. Yep lucid you got it right, socialist are just fat lazy people who sit around all day wacthing tv and playing video games all day.

[Maynard]

I suppose you have visited and lived in every country in the existence of the universe to be able to make this judgement, on what is the "greatest country our universe has ever seen..."


is bringing liberty, Liberal Democracy, hope and prosperity to the Middle East starting with Iraq. How do you guys feel about that fact considering your ideology in general and your irrational hatered for this great country in particular?
Oh, I see, what if the people in the Middle East don't want your form of "liberty" , force it on to them through war ? If it was so superior then surely the systems in the middle east would naturally progress to this. It makes you wonder why so many in the Middle East distrust or dislike the USA, how do you account for that ?
It's not a "fact" at all, as what evidence is there of any "prosperity" in Iraq ?



America, TODAY, is taking care of business and spreading Liberty, Democracy and Capitalism

Why does Capitalism have to be forced on people through war ? Shouldn't Iraqi's make a decision as to what is the best system for them, rather than being told and killed to have it the way the United States wants ?



And the pitiful whining of a few freedom hating socialists isnt going to change that fact

Well, you have no need to worry then. America will rule forever if we make no difference, why are you here then ? To convince us through rhetoric and abuse ?


Oh, how long can you people keep up the denial? How long can you keep yourself blind to the facts? When will you be able to explain the fact that even poor people in the US have it better than the vast majority of people in socialist countries? How long will you remain blind to the way America broke your beloved Communism in the Soviet Union? How long will you ignore the fact that "Red China" has adopted Capitalism (allthough they've unfortunately kept up the political repression part)? Or that Cuba is a hellhole that people are dying to leave like rats on a sinking ship?
They didn't "break" communism, perhaps you are "blind" to the facts yourself. No one here ignores the fact that China is a capitalist country, in fact, it's usually capitalists who say that China is "communist". Have you been to Cuba lately, to make that judgement.



A funny thing is that Lebanon (a haven of Bourgeouise Democracy and Capitalism before the Civil War) even today, after the civil war, still has a higher GDP/Capita than Baath Socialist Syria (its occupier). Socialism, in any form, does not work.

It's amazing how Cuba the "hellhole" has higher GDP growth than the greatest country in the universe as well.
It's also amazing how Cuba ranks 30 places above Lebanon in the Human Development report. For such a Hellhole, they are not doing too bad, better than that "haven of Bourgeouise Democracy".



Ok, it's official. These guys are insane.

We are insane because we believe money isn't everything ? explain.



The first Bush kicked Saddam's ass
He didn't. He sent other's too.



Fortunately, the current regime understands that it was a mistake to tolerate and aid dictators in the name of "stability".
Why do they support Saudi Arabia and Uzbekistan ? two of the worst Human Rights abusers in the world.






They didn't have the economic strength to keep up the pace in the arms race. During the late 70s and early 80s new modern tanks, fighters and other military hardware (M1 tanks, M2 Bradley IFVs, F15s, F16s, MLRS) that were superior to those of the Soviet Union were introduced in large numbers. That was a big part in what broke them.


I agree, it was a horrible waste of resources on both sides but that was probably the United States plan, to threaten them , so it was necessary. It worked, they had the advantage but I don't see how it's a good thing for there to be so many weapons to be around.



People are fucking stupid if they think Cuba is paradise. They obviously have never been there.

Perhaps but they are also pretty fucking stupid to think it's an absolute hellhole or that it was some paradise before Castro took over or the fact , that he has introduced policy's which have significantly improved the life's of many, especially peasants, who were basically slaves before Batista was overthrown.


Just a personal question, why aren't you living in the greatest country in the world at the moment ?

[redstar2000]

I'm a huge fan of the US of A.

I suspect that's at the root of your problem in understand social, political and economic reality.

The United States is not a sports team.

Imperial ambition is not a race for the World Cup.

If, as you imply, you and your family were refugees from Lebanon's bloody civil war, then there's little doubt that you had things tougher than I ever have (for one thing, no one's ever shot at me).

What was America's role in that conflict? Who did the CIA support? What about the role of Israel (often America's surrogate in the Middle East)? Who made the weaponry and shipped it to your country?

Is it possible that "the greatest country in the universe" (how many planets have you visited?) may have played some direct and responsible role in those horrible years for the Lebanese people?

Didn't the U.S. invade your country back in 1958?

You might want to do a little research...and perhaps pick another country to "cheer for".

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Goldfinger]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 12:46 AM
...is bringing liberty, Liberal Democracy, hope and prosperity to the Middle East starting with Iraq. How do you guys feel about that fact considering your ideology in general and your irrational hatered for this great country in particular?
oh

[Aram]

I suspect that's at the root of your problem in understand social, political and economic reality.

The United States is not a sports team.

Imperial ambition is not a race for the World Cup.

I like the country, its ideals, much of its people, and many of its government's actions. (Especially right now.) Use whatever words you want to describe that.



What was America's role in that conflict? Who did the CIA support? What about the role of Israel (often America's surrogate in the Middle East)? Who made the weaponry and shipped it to your country?

None up until 1982-83 when they tried to help the (democratically elected) government regain its grip on the country and train its military as the IDF pulled out. The US efforts were undermined by the Syrian and Iranian governments along with their Palestinian, leftist and islamic militia allies in Lebanon. The newly formed Hezebollah hit the US Marine barracks, the US pulled out, and the rest is history.



Is it possible that "the greatest country in the universe" (how many planets have you visited?) may have played some direct and responsible role in those horrible years for the Lebanese people?

None that I am aware of except in not doing anything to protest the Syrian occupation until very recently.



Didn't the U.S. invade your country back in 1958?

Sending troops to a country at the request of its (democratically elected) government is hardly an "invasion". The USMC came in in 1958 to help Chamoun's Liberal party (Ahrar) government against the pan-Arab leftists that wanted to illegaly overthrow them.



You might want to do a little research...and perhaps pick another country to "cheer for".

At least I never cheered for the Soviet Union.

[lucid]

Originally posted by comrade neonate+Jan 10 2004, 11:32 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (comrade neonate @ Jan 10 2004, 11:32 AM)
[email protected] 10 2004, 01:18 AM
I do have a problem with social(ist) programs that provide for lazy people that do not even try to better themselves.
I just love that cliche attack on communism. The way some capitalist think that communism is just one big conspiracy created by lazy people to be implemented for lazy people so they can always be lazy. Yep lucid you got it right, socialist are just fat lazy people who sit around all day wacthing tv and playing video games all day. [/b]
I don&#39;t think that all communist are lazy. But you will have people that will abuse the system. I don&#39;t think that humans are as good natured as you make them out to be. There are a lot of people that would sit at home and do nothing if they got away with it. I&#39;m saying this from what I have seen during my life.

Like I said before. I don&#39;t have a problem with supporting social programs for people that are having hard times. Especially if they are physically or mentally unable to provide for themselves. I just have problems with providing for people that simply refuse to try and improve themselves.

[redfront]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 11:46 PM
...is bringing liberty, Liberal Democracy, hope and prosperity to the Middle East starting with Iraq.
Who says your country can make the Middle East in general more &#39;free&#39; than it allready is?
Have you been in the Middle East (i guess not since most americans haven&#39;t even been outside their own country, but yet they judge every other country <_<)? I&#39;ve been there and as far as i can see there&#39;re just as many % of hungry people there as in the U.&#036;.
Your vision of liberty isn&#39;t necesery the best.

[Aram]

is bringing liberty, Liberal Democracy, hope and prosperity to the Middle East starting with Iraq. How do you guys feel about that fact considering your ideology in general and your irrational hatered for this great country in particular?

Oh, I see, what if the people in the Middle East don&#39;t want your form of "liberty" , force it on to them through war ? If it was so superior then surely the systems in the middle east would naturally progress to this. It makes you wonder why so many in the Middle East distrust or dislike the USA, how do you account for that ?
It&#39;s not a "fact" at all, as what evidence is there of any "prosperity" in Iraq ?

The people in the Middle East appreciate freedom just as much as any other people in the world. Any other opinion is racist. They won&#39;t progress to it because decades of fighting against Saddam (by the Shia and Kurds) has not worked. The US helped them out. The people who mistrust the US in the Middle East do it because they have been brainwashed by their dictatorial governments who point to a foreign enemy to make the people ignore their misery at home and give them something to direct their frustrations against.

Also, the US is a powerful non-muslim country which makes it a natural target for Islamic fundies. That&#39;s also part of the reason Lebanon was a target. Because it was the only country in the Middle East with a Christian majority (now a third of the population) and a Christian president. It&#39;s a thorn in their side.





America, TODAY, is taking care of business and spreading Liberty, Democracy and Capitalism


Why does Capitalism have to be forced on people through war ? Shouldn&#39;t Iraqi&#39;s make a decision as to what is the best system for them, rather than being told and killed to have it the way the United States wants ?

They will decide, and they will make the right decision.




A funny thing is that Lebanon (a haven of Bourgeouise Democracy and Capitalism before the Civil War) even today, after the civil war, still has a higher GDP/Capita than Baath Socialist Syria (its occupier). Socialism, in any form, does not work.


It&#39;s amazing how Cuba the "hellhole" has higher GDP growth than the greatest country in the universe as well.
It&#39;s also amazing how Cuba ranks 30 places above Lebanon in the Human Development report. For such a Hellhole, they are not doing too bad, better than that "haven of Bourgeouise Democracy".

They have higher growth (I don&#39;t know the numbers for Cuba, but I trust you) because they are down there at practically nothing. West European countries used to have economic growth of 10-15% annually a hundred years ago. It is easier to grow fast when you have less.

As for Lebanon, there has been a civil war in Lebanon you know. When I said "haven of Bourgeouise Democracy" I, naturally, meant before the war.

By the way:

Cuba GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;2,300

Syria GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;3,500

Lebanon GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;5,400

Israel GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;19,000

Sweden GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;25,400

USA GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;37,600


And I just happened to see the Real GDP Growth Rate for Cuba. It was 0% in 2002. ROFL




They didn&#39;t have the economic strength to keep up the pace in the arms race. During the late 70s and early 80s new modern tanks, fighters and other military hardware (M1 tanks, M2 Bradley IFVs, F15s, F16s, MLRS) that were superior to those of the Soviet Union were introduced in large numbers. That was a big part in what broke them.


I agree, it was a horrible waste of resources on both sides but that was probably the United States plan, to threaten them , so it was necessary. It worked, they had the advantage but I don&#39;t see how it&#39;s a good thing for there to be so many weapons to be around.

The Soviet Union doesn&#39;t exist, Communism is almost dead, and the USA is the most powerful country on the face of the planet. Mission accomplished.




Just a personal question, why aren&#39;t you living in the greatest country in the world at the moment ?

Because currently I&#39;m not able to fully emigrate to the US, but I will eventually.

[Aram]

redfront,

The USA is not my country, but it is my favorite country.

And not only have I been to the Middle East, but I was born there and I have relatives there.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 10:20 AM
redfront,

The USA is not my country, but it is my favorite country.

And not only have I been to the Middle East, but I was born there and I have relatives there.
Yes, I&#39;m sure you have a picture of Emperor George II on your wall.

But you didn&#39;t answer my questions.

What was the role of the United States in the Lebanese civil war and the invasion from Israel?

If it&#39;s something you feel uncomfortable about and would rather not know, I&#39;ll understand. ;)

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[Aram]

redstar,

I&#39;ve allready replied to you. Go back a few posts. It is there.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 06:17 AM

(*:


Aram, how many other countries have you visited and/or lived in?

I&#39;ve lived in Lebanon, Syria, Sweden, the USA, and now I&#39;m back in Sweden. I&#39;m a Swedish citizen (since 1989), but as I&#39;m sure you&#39;ve gathered I&#39;m a huge fan of the US of A. :)
Compared to Lebanon, and Syria. I&#39;m sure the USA is a better place to live. As far as Sweden is concerned, I don&#39;t know much about life there, so will abstain from comment.

The thing is, what is it that makes the USA the greatest country ever? Its military strength? They are the most powerful military in the world. What would you say is Americas&#39; greatest attribute?
Why is the USA better than Canada for instance, or Britain?

[Hawker]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 03:16 PM
Cuba GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;2,300

Syria GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;3,500

Lebanon GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;5,400

Israel GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;19,000

Sweden GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;25,400

USA GDP/Capita in 2002 (with purchasing power parity): &#036;37,600
Cause of Cuba&#39;s low GDP:UN condemned US Helms-Burton Embargo

[John Galt]

Originally posted by (*@Jan 10 2004, 04:11 PM
Why is the USA better than Canada for instance, or Britain?
USA > Canada because we have an army to protect our rights. They are dependant on us to protect them.
USA > Britian because of mad cow disease and we dont have funny accents :)

[Hawker]

Originally posted by John Galt+Jan 10 2004, 05:04 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (John Galt @ Jan 10 2004, 05:04 PM)
(*@Jan 10 2004, 04:11 PM
Why is the USA better than Canada for instance, or Britain?
USA > Canada because we have an army to protect our rights. They are dependant on us to protect them.
USA > Britian because of mad cow disease and we dont have funny accents :) [/b]
Wrong,the British are speaking proper English,where do you think English originated from.The US just fucked it up.

[John Galt]

Originally posted by Hawker+Jan 10 2004, 05:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Hawker @ Jan 10 2004, 05:13 PM)
Originally posted by John [email protected] 10 2004, 05:04 PM

(*@Jan 10 2004, 04:11 PM
Why is the USA better than Canada for instance, or Britain?
USA > Canada because we have an army to protect our rights. They are dependant on us to protect them.
USA > Britian because of mad cow disease and we dont have funny accents :)
Wrong,the British are speaking proper English,where do you think English originated from.The US just fucked it up. [/b]
And Sadam was a proper ruler, how do you think original rulers were?

[Osman Ghazi]

Firstly

To John Galt, a big whopping middle finger to you. Canada doesn&#39;t need an army to protect itself because we aren&#39;t in the business of making enemies like a certain someone south of the border. I don&#39;t know if you&#39;ve ever been to Canada but if you take a look around, you&#39;ll see that ever cititzen is entitles to absolutely free healthcare. Also, ive noticed that even with our lack of military strength, we have more rights than you do in the US. Also, the govt isnt aloud to spy on me for almost no reason like they can on you. The only reason the United States has such a large army is because they have such a large arms industry, therefore they can stimulate their economy by enlarging or improving their military. Kennedy did it. Reagan did it. And Bush is doing it. And to an extent it works, but the effects are short-lived and besides which, i wouldn&#39;t want my tax money to be spent to give to the already rich arms dealers a break.

Secondly,

The United States also had a case of Bovine Spongiform Disease (or Mad Cow disease to you ignorant cappies) so i don&#39;t see how that would make you better than Britain. Also, take a look at the Southern States and try to tell me that they don&#39;t ahve funny accents. :D

[toastedmonkey]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 01:18 AM
I do have a problem with social(ist) programs that provide for lazy people that do not even try to better themselves.
Socialism has a problem with lazy people too&#33; :o , they arent helped by socialism.


They are just imaging that their meat is cut with soy and barely has any meat in it at all. :lol: Thats great&#33; U&#036; of A, that great country, one of thier finest products being Macdonalds&#33; check the ingrediants in their food&#33; Burgers have hardly any meat in, and the &#39;fries&#39; or chips or whatever you grand masters of the universe call them, has less than 4% potato in&#33;


USA > Britian because of mad cow disease and we dont have funny accentsHmmm that funny accent is amazigly the way your language is spoken :o belive it or not, but you speak English, which suprisingly wasnt invented by the good old U&#036; oppressor.
And for mad cow disease&#33; Ha&#33; :lol: that hellhole, Britain, hasnt had a case of mad cow disease for years, and those Universe Rulers have it now :o :lol: :lol:

[Germanator]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 12:45 AM





Oh, how long can you people keep up the denial? How long can you keep yourself blind to the facts?

Funny, I was about to ask you the same thing. If, indeed, America was so benevolent, I was wondering if you could explain the CIA and Military interventions that supported brutal regimes in the following countries/regions:

China
Italy
Greece
The Philippines
Korea
Albania
Eastern Europe
East Germany
Iran
Guatamala
Costa Rica
Syria
The Middle East
Indonesia
Western Europe
British Guiana
Soviet Union
Vietnam
Cambodia
Laos
Haiti
France/Algeria
Ecuador
The Congo
Brazil
Peru
Dominican Republic
Cuba
Ghana
Uraguay
Chile
Bolivia
Iraq
Australia
Angola
Zaire
Jamaica
Seychelles
Grenada
Morocco
Suriname
Libya
Nicaragua
Panama
Bulgaria
Afghanistan
El Salvador



When will you be able to explain the fact that even poor people in the US have it better than the vast majority of people in socialist countries?

Havanna, Cuba has a lower infant mortality rate than Washington, DC, thanks to Cuba&#39;s comprehensive medical plan. Germany, The Netherlands, The UK, and Scandinavia all provide better standards of living for their lowest classes.

If you had any sort of logical sensibility you&#39;d know that even if our lowest citizens lived better than the rest of the world, that there is always something we could do to make it better. That&#39;s the inherent fallacy of conservatism. You assume that this way is the best, when quite clearly it is not.


How long will you remain blind to the way America broke your beloved Communism in the Soviet Union?

Let me guess, you are going to give Reagan credit. Nope, not exactly. Most analysts will give more credit to the Pope and the Polish Solidarity movement...even the Beatles, than they would give Reagan, who just happened to be in office at an opportune time.

By the way, fuck the soviet pseudo-Marxists.


How long will you ignore the fact that "Red China" has adopted Capitalism (allthough they&#39;ve unfortunately kept up the political repression part)?

How long will you remain ignorant to the fact that there are varying "styles" of Marxism, not all of which involve brutal dictatorships.


Or that Cuba is a hellhole that people are dying to leave like rats on a sinking ship?

Most of them happen to be criminals. Castro is rather popular in Cuba, actually. Perhaps you should watch the "Discovery" channel more often.


A funny thing is that Lebanon (a haven of Bourgeouise Democracy and Capitalism before the Civil War) even today, after the civil war, still has a higher GDP/Capita than Baath Socialist Syria (its occupier). Socialism, in any form, does not work.

Well, you&#39;d better call up Germany and inform them that their socialist way of doing things doesn&#39;t work. Apparently, they didn&#39;t get the memo.

[John Galt]

Hey Osman- that cow was imported from canda :P.

Im not bashing Canada or Britian. They are two of our most productive states

[LuZhiming]

Oh, how long can you people keep up the denial? How long can you keep yourself blind to the facts?

Likewise


When will you be able to explain the fact that even poor people in the US have it better than the vast majority of people in socialist countries?

Well, I don&#39;t know, Vietnam, Laos, and Cuba never had a chance to strengthen themselves thanks to U.S. terrorism and economic strangulation. The Soviet Union had an accomplishment that worried U.S. leaders because they couldn&#39;t match it: "modernization in a single generation" as Arthur Schlesinger puts it.


How long will you remain blind to the way America broke your beloved Communism in the Soviet Union?

What, the Soviet Union wasn&#39;t a state? It didn&#39;t have dictators? That&#39;s news to me, Communism, heh. My question to you is: How long will you remain blind to the fact that "America" is two continents? How long will you remain blind to the way the U.S. had attacked the Soviet Union for unprovoked reasons?


How long will you ignore the fact that "Red China" has adopted Capitalism (allthough they&#39;ve unfortunately kept up the political repression part)?

What are you suggesting? If you are really serious with this arguement, then you can take a lesson in Chinese history, and apparently by your standards, learn that monarchies must be better than Capitalism and this so called "Communism." But of course, even you should be able to realize how twisted your standards are.


Or that Cuba is a hellhole that people are dying to leave like rats on a sinking ship?

This is an example that is just.... laughablly absurd. Ignore it all you like, Cuba is better off now than it was under U.S. puppets. And all Cubans have the benefit of healthcare, shelter, and education, there is not any sort of mass starvation. Cuba also has one of the highest literacy rates in the world, and its scientific and medical research centers are outstanding. Cuba has created groundbreaking vaccines. It has medically helped people in Angola, South Africa, Haiti, Honduras, El Salvador, Nicaragua, etc. The revolution has also from the beginning worked to end racism and sexism in Cuba. Cuban forces entered Angola after the racist, terrorist, U.S. backed South Africans entered Angola and terrorized the population. Cuba rid Angola of them, and never once demanded anything back for it or committed ruthless tactics. This is particularlly impressive if you consider the extensive economic strangulation and international terrorism Cuba has been subjected to. Take this example of Cuba&#39;s success: In 1961 the Kennedy administration created the Alliance for Progress, supposedly to help Latin America. Billions were spent on this program, it was a response to Cuba, and that meant Cuba did not benefit from it. In 1970 this program produced a report. That report read as follows: "[Cuba has] come closer to some of the Alliance objectives than most Alliance members. In education and public health, no country in Latin America has carried out such ambitious and nationally comprehensive programs. Cuba&#39;s centrally planned economy has done more to integrate the rural and urban sectors (through a national income distribution policy) than the market economies of the other Latin American countries." I don&#39;t want to take credit for this, William Blum pointed it out. Or let&#39;s look at what the CIA historian and Kennedy advisor Arthur Schlesinger has to say about the U.S.&#39; reason for hating Cuba and its threat: "the spread of the Castro idea of taking matters into one&#39;s own hands." which was a great threat because in Latin America "the distribution of land and other forms of national wealth greatly favours the propertied classes, [and] the poor and underprivileged, stimulated by the example of the Cuban revolution, are now demanding opportunities for a decent living." So the facts are the opposite of what you claim.


A funny thing is that Lebanon (a haven of Bourgeouise Democracy and Capitalism before the Civil War) even today, after the civil war, still has a higher GDP/Capita than Baath Socialist Syria (its occupier). Socialism, in any form, does not work.

Syria is socialism? :lol:

[New Tolerance]

Uh :huh:

the greatest nation our universe has ever seen?

We haven&#39;t even seen all the nations in the universe yet.

[Maynard]

None up until 1982-83 when they tried to help the (democratically elected) government regain its grip on the country and train its military as the IDF pulled out. The US efforts were undermined by the Syrian and Iranian governments along with their Palestinian, leftist and islamic militia allies in Lebanon. The newly formed Hezebollah hit the US Marine barracks, the US pulled out, and the rest is history.



First off, why is it okay to help that democratically elected and overthrow others, such as Salvador Allende, how is that justifiable ?http://www.zmag.org/ZMag/articles/chomlimwar.htm
http://www.zmag.org/chomsky/other/9604-israel.html are good short articles on Lebanon.


The people in the Middle East appreciate freedom just as much as any other people in the world. Any other opinion is racist.

They may appericate freedom just as much but who&#39;s to say there definition of freedom is not different to yours, saying that the west has the show people how to have "freedom" is racist.


They won&#39;t progress to it because decades of fighting against Saddam (by the Shia and Kurds) has not worked. The US helped them out. The people who mistrust the US in the Middle East do it because they have been brainwashed by their dictatorial governments who point to a foreign enemy to make the people ignore their misery at home and give them something to direct their frustrations against.

You don&#39;t think Saddam would have eventually died ? They didn&#39;t exactly "help them out" in 91, why is that ?
What of those in Europe or even the US itself, are there citizens being brainwashed by there governments. You don&#39;t think the same applies to the US, how come you can&#39;t apply the same logic to your beloved country, where foreign countries are identified as the enemy, so that domestic issues are no longer the major concern.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines02/1205-03.htm
What of Osama Bin Laden, he is a "rich" person, who doesn&#39;t have to worry about domestic issues but he originally had a big issue with the US having troops in Saudi Arabia

A "majority" of 1/3 rd ? Majority:a number more than half of the total.


They will decide, and they will make the right decision.

They will decide after it&#39;s put on them by the planners in Washington.


They have higher growth (I don&#39;t know the numbers for Cuba, but I trust you) because they are down there at practically nothing. West European countries used to have economic growth of 10-15% annually a hundred years ago. It is easier to grow fast when you have less.

http://www.worldbank.org/data/wdi2003/tabl...es/table4-1.pdf (http://www.worldbank.org/data/wdi2003/tables/table4-1.pdf)
Yes, I am well aware but remember this is after losing there major trading partner and not having any trade with the largest economy in the world. If that happened to many other countries, I doubt they would have grown economically. In fact Russia has 3.7 per cent GDP decline since the soviet union fell and Capitalism took root.



And I just happened to see the Real GDP Growth Rate for Cuba. It was 0% in 2002. ROFL

I personally don&#39;t see what&#39;s so amusing about that.



The Soviet Union doesn&#39;t exist, Communism is almost dead, and the USA is the most powerful country on the face of the planet. Mission accomplished.

Heh..you wish. The Soviet union has disappeared, true, Communism has never existed so it cannot be dead before it "lives", the USA is the most powerful country but that won&#39;t be forever, it never is. History changes and so the decline of the United States will come eventually.



Canada because we have an army to protect our rights. They are dependant on us to protect them.


Why does that make you "better" ? It&#39;s also true not many people want to attack Canada as well and according to the UN, Canada has a higher standard of living compared to the US

[LuZhiming]

Israel was helping the democratic government? Another lie. That government was completely isolated, neither Syria nor Israel were helping it, they were occupying lands. And long before Israel entered, they were paying Christian radicals who senselessly slaughtered Muslims in Lebanon. That conflict was utterly divided. You had Israel/Christian radicals/U.S., PLO, Hizbollah, Lebanese government, and Syria all divided. The Lebanese government was the weakest of them.

[Penguin Chariot Archer from Hell]

my response to that picture posted in first page.

[Commie Girl]

Let&#39;s have a regime change in the USA.....indict Bush II, Rummy, and gang for war crimes...HANG &#39;EM HIGH&#33; Anyway, the rest of the world can understand, but not condone, the acts of September 11th. (no cute acronyms, etc...like 9/11) You people have a foreign policy that believes they can run around, spread democracy(ya, like you have one? a pres. that wasn&#39;t even elected, Patriot Act II that gives away alot of your so-called freedoms)and generally are seen as the Bullies of the World. Keep your so-called Democracy to yourselves. It is useless to argue that these are the reasons for OCCUPYING a FOREIGN contry. Yet, you willingly slept with Saddam and pals, assasinated many heads of state, and supplied these so-called "enemies"with their weapons and then you cry and complain and seem shocked when things don&#39;t go your way. Well surprise, you can&#39;t always get what you want, but you sure get what you deserve.


USA SUCKS&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; :D

[Commie Girl]

Also, I am going to Cuba with my fiance to get married, sometime in March. Yay Socialism&#33; Viva Fidel&#33; And THANK GOD there won&#39;t be any U&#036;er&#39;s there to ruin the trip&#33;&#33;&#33; That is just one more reason to go and have fun&#33;

[Osman Ghazi]

Aram

I assume that you are Christain Lebanese, ya?
So of course you would view the Civil War the way you do. However, you may like to know that when your saviours, Israel invaded Lebanon at the request of their would-be puppets, their intention was to annex the southern part to Israel. Besides which, i would deeply suspect any "democratically elected" christian government in a country that is 2/3 muslim. I mean, doesn&#39;t that strike you as a bit odd?

[sickofyou]

FUCK CANADA&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33; jusk tiddin :ph34rr:

seriously thoLZwhat eggsackily are you dividided? better yet im so mixed up (shameless Cure plug) as to really question your own government, who we&#39;re the Lebanese fightnin.?&#33; so i must agree always keep us from EVIL

;(Yep McChoken …ona frie. sick

[Commie Girl]

Is this ARAM for real? Do you read? Do you watch REAL news (anything but CNN, the U&#036; gov&#39;t propoganda machine)? the U&#036; ranks so low on any studies done regarding the planet and how countries treat their citizens, education, health, etc. There are more people in your country that have no health care coverage than the total population of Canada (30 million). And if you believe that military might makes you so wonderful, then you go right ahead and believe that. Spread your brand of democracy? No thanks. Leave the rest of the world alone, make yourself more insular, and FUCK OFF&#33; I check the news every morning just waiting for another event in your country that maybe gives your ignorant citizens a taste of their own medicine&#33; And now the U&#036; government has said that they have quietly pulled their 400 member team out of Iraq that was looking for Weapons of Mass Destruction....?

[Hitman47]

VIVA sexydj4u&#33;&#33;&#33; :D

[Commie Girl]

Thanks Hitman :D