Decimation in the Red Army during the Russian Civil War

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

I was reading my history textbook a while back and found that it claimed that Leon Trotsky insisted that every tenth man be shot if a battalion performed poorly. This practice is called decimation and has been around since the time of the ancient Romans.

There were no sources in the history tectbook and I couldn't find anything about this being done in the Red Army online. So now I'm asking you guys: is it true that Trotsky supported and practiced decimation?

[Vercingetorix]

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this is anything other than anticommunist propaganda.

I would believe it of Stalin. I would believe it of someone within the Russian military. I would believe it of the forces of the Russian Empire.

It does not sound like something that Trotsky would have supported. It doesn't square with his ideology.

[Paul Pott]

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this is anything other than anticommunist propaganda.

I would believe it of Stalin. I would believe it of someone within the Russian military. I would believe it of the forces of the Russian Empire.

It does not sound like something that Trotsky would have supported. It doesn't square with his ideology.

This is such a parody of left wing anticommunism I can go to bed amused. Thank you.

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

Wait guys, I did more research. Apparently, this was only done once: and the punishment was inflicted on a bunch of deserters, a regiment that had run away in the middle of a crisis.

I could be wrong, but I think that's right.

[Brutus]

Well, discipline needed to be enforced...

[Flying Purple People Eater]

If you could tell us the name of the book, or at least its' sources, then it would be heavily appreciated. Does this book haves sources, or is it a primary account?

I find this hard to believe, personally - especially the part about 'retaliating against scoundrels'. Far more monstrous soviet generals have gotten away with simply being exiled (like that guy who cut a defectors' heart out and ate it which Lenin cut all connections with).

Even with that said, it's hard to make a response until you specify what it is you're referencing for this information.

[Bronco]

There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that this is anything other than anticommunist propaganda.

I would believe it of Stalin. I would believe it of someone within the Russian military. I would believe it of the forces of the Russian Empire.

It does not sound like something that Trotsky would have supported. It doesn't square with his ideology.

Why would you not believe it of Trotsky, he was notorious for the ruthless military discipline that he imposed during the civil war

[Igor]

Why would you not believe it of Trotsky, he was notorious for the ruthless military discipline that he imposed during the civil war

u dont get it he was the "good one"

revolutions fail because of their leaders personalities and if only trotsky who never had the oppressive qualities of some other leaders we could be living in a magical land of

[GoddessCleoLover]

Decimation was employed by the Red Army during World War Two, but I am unsure about its use during the Civil War.

[TheWannabeAnarchist]

Here's one source:

http://books.google.com/books?id=FbkKvBHkBDcC&pg=PA102&lpg=PA102&dq=trotsky+shot+every+tenth+man&source=bl&ots=wDYUtn917q&sig=ClTXig1fcqUUzsNjOhbB1R-VM64&hl=en&sa=X&ei=m1OvUb30JK2n4APIuYCQAw&ved=0CDIQ6AEwAw


Here's another:

(12) Leon Trotsky, order issued to the Red Army during the Civil War.

I give warning that if any unit retreats without orders, the first to be shot down will be the commissary of the unit, and next the commander. Brave and gallant soldiers will be appointed in their places. Cowards, dastards and traitors will not escape the bullet. This I solemnly promise in the presence of the entire Red Army.

(I got that quote from Spartacus International.)

Forgive me for calling them "scoundrels." People trying to learn about history should not put things in such black and white terms. The Russian Civil War was a war, not some epic struggle between the forces of good and evil. It's never that simple :laugh:


Here's another:

[Geiseric]

This is such a parody of left wing anticommunism I can go to bed amused. Thank you.

He's right though stalin purged most of the officer Corp even before they did anything wrong. Trotsky knows a thing or two about leadership and had a history of being right at the front lines of the revolution unlike stalin who was nobody until post civil war, which is when he assigned his friends to be in charge of georgia.

[Geiseric]

Why would you not believe it of Trotsky, he was notorious for the ruthless military discipline that he imposed during the civil war

So was makhno. For every execution there were hundreds of soldiers inspired legitimately. But for things like looting and raping, executions were completely necessary.

[Rusty Shackleford]

He's right though stalin purged most of the officer Corp even before they did anything wrong. Trotsky knows a thing or two about leadership and had a history of being right at the front lines of the revolution unlike stalin who was nobody until post civil war, which is when he assigned his friends to be in charge of georgia.

This stalinophobia is ridiculous sometimes. Stalin, like Trotsky, was a major organizer in the Bolshevik party. Stalin had been quite active for a long period of time and had written some major works for the party before even 1910. to say he was no-one is absolutely childish, a-historical, and nonsense.



As far as the whole brutality thing in the military goes. There was an article by a right-wing german news paper, of all places, that actually discounted the notion that the battle of stalingrad was a battle where soviet soldiers were basically walking between guns pointed at them from all sides.

And on the quotes provided, Trotsky was threatening the leadership of a unit, not 10% of the regular enlisted folks. Stalin may not have actually been a great military leader though, didnt he have trouble in brest litovsk in the civil war?

[Geiseric]

By the way that would of been stupid to decimate the workers red army they would of shot the commanders if they tried anything like that. The red army was disciplined but I know that trotsky made a speech to about 10000 deserters and got them to rejoin, in one example that you can look up if you'd like, but most of the deserters were from the whites to the reds. The zeal was very high due to the revolution which in the civil war is what largely was responsible for a red victory.

[Brutus]

"In the provinces of Kaluga, Voronezh, and Ryazan, tens of thousands of young peasants had failed to answer the first recruiting summons by the Soviets. The war was going on far from their provinces, the registration of conscripts was inefficient, and consequently the draft to service was not taken seriously. Those who failed to present themselves were known as deserters. It became necessary to launch a strong campaign against these absentees. The war commissariat of Ryazan succeeded in gathering in some fifteen thousand of such deserters. While passing through Ryazan, I decided to take a look at them.

Some of our men tried to dissuade me. “Something might happen,” they warned me. But everything went off beautifully. The men were called out of their barracks. “Comrade-deserters – come to the meeting. Comrade Trotsky has come to speak to you.” They ran out excited, boisterous, as curious as schoolboys. I had imagined them much worse, and they had imagined me as more terrible. In a few minutes, I was surrounded by a huge crowd of unbridled, utterly undisciplined, but not at all hostile men. The “comrade-deserters” were looking at me with such curiosity that it seemed as if their eyes would pop out of their heads. I climbed on a table there in the yard, and spoke to them for about an hour and a half. It was a most responsive audience. I tried to raise them in their own eyes; concluding, I asked them to lift their hands in token of their loyalty to the revolution. The new ideas infected them before my very eyes. They were genuinely enthusiastic; they followed me to the automobile, devoured me with their eyes, not fearfully, as before, but rapturously, and shouted at the tops of their voices. They would hardly let me go. I learned afterward, with some pride, that one of the best ways to educate them was to remind them: “What did you promise Comrade Trotsky?” Later on, regiments of Ryazan “deserters” fought well at the fronts."

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1930/mylife/ch34.htm

[Bronco]

So was makhno. For every execution there were hundreds of soldiers inspired legitimately. But for things like looting and raping, executions were completely necessary.

You say that like I should be offended by the idea that Makhno could also be ruthless, it makes no difference to me, I was just making the point that you shouldn't assume Trotsky would never employ something like this because it supposedly "doesn't square with his ideology"

[Geiseric]

You say that like I should be offended by the idea that Makhno could also be ruthless, it makes no difference to me, I was just making the point that you shouldn't assume Trotsky would never employ something like this because it supposedly "doesn't square with his ideology"

It was not only not square with communism to institute corporal punishment, but also counter productive and counter revolutionary. It was made illegal to do corporal punishment as soon as the soviets were in power.