Is rudeness just a fact of life on the left?

[GerrardWinstanley]

I'm not very experienced in far left activism so I guess part of what I'm hoping to find out in asking this is what to expect from the experience of branch meetings, committees and the like. The online subculture that has emerged since the growth of blogging and social media gives an intimidating picture of it all for me,

Okay, I'll cut to the chase. Are activists in real life act like the people who congregate at Lenin's Tomb? I've noticed the lead blogger Richard Seymour and his friends have a tendency to get foul-mouthed and abusive with anybody who gets on the wrong side of him (which doesn't take much, lets be honest), which was a bit jarring to witness at first since he's usually never at a loss to put his ideas into words with his signature verbosity. I also subscribed to Alex Callinicos' Facebook feed for while for news and views (and stopped after learning how up-to-his-neck he was in the SWP scandal) who showed a similar attitude to a woman who objected to some negative comments he made about the Chinese government, basically dismissing her as a troll without addressing any of her points, even though she didn't do anything wrong as far as I could see.

Sorry if this is approaching gossip territory and I promise this is not an anti-UK Trotskyist rant. The above people are just the best examples I have. It's just when I see the way divisions in the left play themselves out online, there's a temptation to ask myself 'do I really want a revolution lead by "comrades" like this?'. People who are too immature to take a word of criticism without going into paroxysms.

Yes, I know. A revolution is not a dinner party and all that, but then it's hard to imagine the author of that piece of wisdom saying stuff like "fuck off back to Socialist Unity" today. My own attitude to people here is, whatever your views, aren't we broadly looking for the same thing? Ergo, if somebody takes an incorrect view on theory or on foreign affairs for example (Syria is a divisive issue right now), that doesn't mean they are guilty of apostasy or they are revolting liars.

What do you think? Is there room for still room for civility and agreeing to disagree in for socialists?

[ed miliband]

internet innit. people are rude behind keyboards.

for what it's worth, i've met some incredibly rude, grumpy bastards with good politics, and some really nice people with terrible politics, and vice versa.

these people won't be leading any hypothetical revolution anyway, so don't worry about that.

[Zukunftsmusik]

internet innit. people are rude behind keyboards.

Yup. It's a fact of life, not only on the left.

[GerrardWinstanley]

internet innit. people are rude behind keyboards.

for what it's worth, i've met some incredibly rude, grumpy bastards with good politics, and some really nice people with terrible politics, and vice versa.

these people won't be leading any hypothetical revolution anyway, so don't worry about that.Yeah, that was in the back of my mind when I was writing that. I'm a bit 'all keyboard, no trousers' sometimes myself, but only to people I'm satisfied are racial/sexist bigots and generally unpleasant. And FWIW, most activists I've known in the flesh are not like that either.

No, I'm not expecting a revolution led by British students and professors within my lifetime either. I think all of this is worth bearing in mind though.

[Jimmie Higgins]

People are just rude in capitalism - especially in cities. Rude or they ignore everyone... Which can have similar effects.

The Internet also ampliphies this. People say it's the anonymity, and I think that's part of it, but I also think rudeness comes out of poor communication... And text alone can lead to misinterpretations or frustration and so a debate can go no where and so people get frustrated and resort to insults or evocations of hitler or other rhetorical versions of yelling... Or run-on sentences.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

internet innit. people are rude behind keyboards.

for what it's worth, i've met some incredibly rude, grumpy bastards with good politics, and some really nice people with terrible politics, and vice versa.

these people won't be leading any hypothetical revolution anyway, so don't worry about that.

That's correct. There will never be a revolution lead by autocratic "radical 'left'" sects. Until an actual multi-factional Party of the working class emerges anywhere, we'll continue seeing weird freak organizations with their equally distorted leadership personas.

[Althusser]

It's just when I see the way divisions in the left play themselves out online, there's a temptation to ask myself 'do I really want a revolution lead by "comrades" like this?'. People who are too immature to take a word of criticism without going into paroxysms.

It's really similar out there as well. I've found lots of people to be cultish and manipulative. Some groups with similar politics are ready to kill each other over the dumbest shit. It really turns me off from working with others when I witness this type of stuff. It makes me want to retreat away from actual organizing. This is something I see universally between the OrthoTrot spartacists, the lighter trots, the MLs, maoists, and tankies. I try to take the Norm Macdonald approach to the soap opera drama of the practicing left.

[Os Cangaceiros]

People are just rude in capitalism - especially in cities. Rude or they ignore everyone... Which can have similar effects.

I actually disagree. At least, this hasn't really been my experience. Even in cities which have a reputation for callous locals, like NYC or Paris, I've found that there are often more people than not who are amicable towards strangers. You ask for directions or something and people will drop whatever their doing and won't rest till you get to your destination.

The city that I found the most amount of rude, bizarre or indifferent reactions to me from complete strangers was in Prague. I think that was because people recognized me as a tourist, though, and they probably just despise all tourists.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I actually disagree. At least, this hasn't really been my experience. Even in cities which have a reputation for callous locals, like NYC or Paris, I've found that there are often more people than not who are amicable towards strangers. You ask for directions or something and people will drop whatever their doing and won't rest till you get to your destination.

The city that I found the most amount of rude, bizarre or indifferent reactions to me from complete strangers was in Prague. I think that was because people recognized me as a tourist, though, and they probably just despise all tourists.

I think it depends on the size of the city, too. When I first came to a large city I was shocked by how everyone seemed so unconscious of their surroundings. You could bump into someone or be bleeding in front of them and they wouldn't notice. Contrast that to smaller cities where people are usually much more relaxed and friendly. At least, that's my experience.


I haven't met any leftists that are downright insulting off the internet (besides a third-worldist, but I wouldn't really class that hack as leftist), although I have heard that a lot of Trotskyist parties where I live can be really obnoxious when it comes to organising events, and discourage or look down on people who use of any terms linked to marxism (revolution, communism, capital, etc.).

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

my experience of the left is that many of them are self-satisfied, arrogant 'reverse-snobs'. i've found this in all leftist camps and its quite disheartening. ironically enough, i found less solidarity in the left than i did in the housing estate i grew up in which, while being tarnished by social deprivation, had a strong sense of community underpinning it. the left is like all politics: argument for argument's sake and completely detached from the real world. rudeness is a product of that i think, anyone who wants to be 'right' is gonna alienate others

[Flying Purple People Eater]

my experience of the left is that many of them are self-satisfied, arrogant 'reverse-snobs'.

I've actually met people who are like this. They'll talk about Keynesian and liberal solutions to problems for "the poor", then laugh demeaningly at those 'stupid miners getting duped again'.

Although I disagree with you on politics. Politics are inescapable. Wanting something as simple as food on your plate while someone who hasn't worked for their food is treated to a buffet is a political position (in fact, this very scenario is part of what kickstarted the French Revolution).

[Admiral Swagmeister G-Funk]

I've actually met people who are like this. They'll talk about Keynesian and liberal solutions to problems for "the poor", then laugh demeaningly at those 'stupid miners getting duped again'.

Although I disagree with you on politics. Politics are inescapable. Wanting something as simple as food on your plate while someone who hasn't worked for their food is treated to a buffet is a political position (in fact, this very scenario is part of what kickstarted the French Revolution).
politics is a reality and that's the problem. not the principles of organization but the way that politics is utilized by the ruling class. the same way that the principles of democracy are utilized by the ruling class - this is something that the left has missed and it is a part of the problem we're discussing i think. the left tries to play the same game as bourgeois politicians while failing to realize that the game is rigged. the 'political system' is the creation of the ruling class and it is the mechanism that allows them to function, hence why engaging in it is a futile exercise and hence why, in this context, politics is a joke. i think this relates to the sense of rudeness that the op mentioned, given that there is a sense of superiority within political discourse and polemics and how this actually detaches us from the working class. i say this as someone who was a worker and is now a student of politics and sociology. i'm not saying this in a 'prolier than thou' sense but rather based on my correspondence with ordinary workers before and after my entrance into academia - the left, in this country, is dominated by academics and with academia comes one-up-man-ship and the inherent rudeness that comes with it - this is the same system that produces knowledge and the politicians which govern based on this knowledge. there is an emphasis on polemics and argument and with this comes rudeness. there are very thin lines between our so called revolutionaries and the people in power and in most cases, the people at the top of these different spectrum come from very similar socio-economic positions. politics aren't inescapable but the kind of politics we have are, hence the need for struggle, and the irony is that the ways in which the left engages in politics are essentially the same as how bourgeois politicians do it. thus we reach the fundamental question of the left: how do we engage in the political system with the intention of undermining it or even overthrowing it? the rudeness we're speaking of comes from the very 'us and them' nature of bourgeois politics and that's what we need to escape from - we need to go 'beyond' politics because politics isn't 'our' game. 'politics', as we understand it now, doesn't matter to the single mother on benefits in a housing estate or the working man who is being told that he no longer has a job - politics is a circle jerk for the rich and their interests.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

these people won't be leading any hypothetical revolution anyway, so don't worry about that.

This is the key point.

I too have met nice idiots and clever shits.

[bricolage]

i've been to meetings of groups before where noone's even bothered to say hello. shit like that makes me not want to go back and it's a really minor thing to sort out anyway.

[ed miliband]

i've been to meetings of groups before where noone's even bothered to say hello. shit like that makes me not want to go back and it's a really minor thing to sort out anyway.

yeah, the rudeness i've encountered has been like that -- moodiness, miserable, etc. but not the kind you get online.

[helot]

I think it depends on the size of the city, too. When I first came to a large city I was shocked by how everyone seemed so unconscious of their surroundings. You could bump into someone or be bleeding in front of them and they wouldn't notice. Contrast that to smaller cities where people are usually much more relaxed and friendly. At least, that's my experience.


A friend of mine who moved to my city from London commented on the huge difference of this. He was shocked when he first came here that random people would strike up conversation with him for no reason. Made me laugh as i never thought about it before.

[ind_com]

None of the communists with some good background of practice, whom I met, were rude. You can't organize the masses if you are rude.