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View Full Version : An immodest proposal, concerning the health benefits of socialism



MarxSchmarx
3rd June 2013, 05:39
I thought of posting this in Science and Environment, or hell even chit-chat, but decided it would be of use to all around if right-wingers could chime in as well.

A commonly cited benefit of socialism is that production will go towards human need, and that truly meaningful advances to social progress will be prioirtiezed over the trivial. For example, one of the benefits frequently touted by those of us on the left is that medicine will flourish under socialism. It has been said, for example, that we should ask not whether this or that therapy will cure cancer, but whether the workers occupying the factories will cure cancer.

So here is my immodest proposal. For one specific medical field, caitalism has largely provided the solution. And the social implications of this solution are far from trivial.

And this is infectious diseases. Currently, infectious diseases are quite treatable and are no longer considered a serious health problem in wealthy countries. The situation is very different in developing countries, yes. But insofar as capitalism has "worked" in places like Japan, America and Switzerland, a capitalist health system has largely mitigated infectious diseases as a serious problem. The machinery of capitalism has provided the wherewithal to cure most diseases (in the form of antibiotics and vaccines) and these are continuously being improved. AIDS is a possible exception, especially in certain demographics.

The ability of the capitalist system, taken as an aggregate, to solve medical problems therefore seems very real. Of course, the same could be said for the ability of the system in, e.g., Cuba and the USSR to solve real medical problems. It is no accident that the broad absence of infectious disease problems in much of the former eastern bloc (excepting, again, AIDS and likely tuberculosis in the ex-USSR) is due to a highly sophisticated, essentially non-market driven distribution system.

But ironically, one would have thought the capitalist system better at treating indvidual diseases like cancer and heart disease than infectious diseases, which are inherently deeply social.

Even if of course capitalism made shit smell like roses and gave us all a pony, I would reject it for its inherently dehumanizing nature. But at least as it concerns one argument, namely, improvement in medical technology, I think capitalism has proven it can do an OK job despite competition for top talent from parasites like Monsanto, Lloyds and Google.

I'm kind of curious what others think of this idea. Our knee jerk response to how socialism will make things better often involves citing medical advances. And maybe capitalism places undue constraint on medical innovation. But I think the case of the effective "curing" of infectious diseases in the global north, by and large, argues against the idea that signficant public health gains are impossible under capitalism.

Perhaps this is the core problem with why diseases haven't been eradicated in the third world, although this isn't so much a critique of capitalism per se as it is a critique of how capitalist ideas are implemented under current coditions, which even American lolbertarians would describe as imperfect.

Just to clarify, I am hardly a capitalist, but am merely interested in how others see this argument. Given that there is no serious example of "actually existing socialism", are claims of medical improvements under socialism largely beside the point? Do they distract from the core of the critique of capitalism, unduly exposing our arguments to an aspect of human existence which grudgingly capitalism seems to have delivered, at least for some segment of the global population?

International_Solidarity
3rd June 2013, 07:58
Of course Capitalism has done a good job of eliminating some disease. Even Marx would agree with this point, Capitalism is just another stage of development. Of course Capitalism will do good things in some aspects of society. However, the point of Marxism and Socialism is that society will continue to evolve beyond Capitalism. Capitalism has been the single most productive system in history, outdoing the systems of Feudalism and Slavery before it, but Socialism and later, Communism will outdo Capitalism even more and produce even more for society.
Also, you yourself point out the inherent problem of Capitalist medical development. And I quote: "The situation is very different in developing countries, yes. But insofar as capitalism has "worked" in places like Japan, America and Switzerland, a capitalist health system has largely mitigated infectious diseases as a serious problem."
This is the inherent problem with any Capitalist development, it becomes available only for the Capitalist countries. And when you have a country with a Capitalist healthcare system, only for the rich. These infectious diseases cannot truly die while inequality exists, because only certain people will be being treated for said diseases.
There is an Anthropologist/Doctor (he has a PhD in both subjects) by the name of Paul Farmer that has in-depth studied how social inequality has led to an increase of infectious disease in much of the world. His hypothesis in his book on Haiti (which he studied in for years), called Aids and Accusations states that without such highly stratified social inequalities these infectious diseases would very easily be eradicated.
In this PDF is another article by Paul Farmer in which he discusses the subject; (in the table of contents click Social Inequalities and Emerging Infectious Diseases)
http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/content/2/4/pdfs/v2-n4.pdf

Without this inherent inequality, these infectious diseases would be eradicated far more quickly and efficiently. A Socialist system would outdo a Capitalist one in this regard. A Capitalist system does have the ability to do this, but dealing with this problem would be an integral part of a Socialist system.

I see nothing in your argument that shows Capitalism as being better than Socialism in any regard.

Jimmie Higgins
3rd June 2013, 09:27
Capitalism creates progress in a way but also constrains it. The Atom bomb is a pretty marvoulous technical and scientific achievement... and also horrifying and terrible. Capitalism creates wealth and also poverty and inequality.

Wider acess to medicine is an achievement - I'd argue that the semi- (and also jim-crow) democratization of home-ownership in post-war US had a bigger ideological impact in uniting worker's behind capitalism in recent history. But the 20th century has seen a big reduction in infectuious diseases.

Of course there are some issues with this. First, how much of these massive contagious outbreaks in the past were actually due to a combination of poverty and cramped urban living, mass factory work, etc? In other words, to a certain extent capitalism also created the potential for such epidemics. At a certain point, this also impacts the system - you can't circulate capital if all your workers are at home hiding from an outbreak of some disease... or dead from illness... or just absent all the time.

Even today, strees-related sickness is a problem for employers and (along with unloading the health-care problem as source of labor-disputes) is the reason some industries really supported Obama's health care reform (I mean aside form directly self-interested industries in health insuracne). Capitalism creates problems like then and then looks to capitalist solutions to the same problem.

In addition, it's not enough to look at the advances in the abstract, but also how they play out in actual society. In this we see, on the one hand the potential and on the other hand the unequal distribution of this potential. While life expectancies in general have gone up, which is a good thing, also within the bigger trajectory are things like how black male life expectancy in the US is going down, in fact in general there is a class divide in life expectancies (based in surveys on "education" not class, but it's a pretty good indicator). It's like with food: yes capitalism has created the potential to feed everyone, but it doesn't - and in fact doesn't because of the nature of the system itself. Capitalism isn't just a repressive machine, it does make advances, but these are constrained within the logic of an inherently unequal system.

NGNM85
13th June 2013, 22:55
I thought of posting this in Science and Environment, or hell even chit-chat, but decided it would be of use to all around if right-wingers could chime in as well.

A commonly cited benefit of socialism is that production will go towards human need, and that truly meaningful advances to social progress will be prioirtiezed over the trivial. For example, one of the benefits frequently touted by those of us on the left is that medicine will flourish under socialism. It has been said, for example, that we should ask not whether this or that therapy will cure cancer, but whether the workers occupying the factories will cure cancer.

So here is my immodest proposal. For one specific medical field, caitalism has largely provided the solution. And the social implications of this solution are far from trivial.

And this is infectious diseases. Currently, infectious diseases are quite treatable and are no longer considered a serious health problem in wealthy countries. The situation is very different in developing countries, yes. But insofar as capitalism has "worked" in places like Japan, America and Switzerland, a capitalist health system has largely mitigated infectious diseases as a serious problem. The machinery of capitalism has provided the wherewithal to cure most diseases (in the form of antibiotics and vaccines) and these are continuously being improved. AIDS is a possible exception, especially in certain demographics.

The ability of the capitalist system, taken as an aggregate, to solve medical problems therefore seems very real. Of course, the same could be said for the ability of the system in, e.g., Cuba and the USSR to solve real medical problems. It is no accident that the broad absence of infectious disease problems in much of the former eastern bloc (excepting, again, AIDS and likely tuberculosis in the ex-USSR) is due to a highly sophisticated, essentially non-market driven distribution system.

But ironically, one would have thought the capitalist system better at treating indvidual diseases like cancer and heart disease than infectious diseases, which are inherently deeply social.

Even if of course capitalism made shit smell like roses and gave us all a pony, I would reject it for its inherently dehumanizing nature. But at least as it concerns one argument, namely, improvement in medical technology, I think capitalism has proven it can do an OK job despite competition for top talent from parasites like Monsanto, Lloyds and Google.

I'm kind of curious what others think of this idea. Our knee jerk response to how socialism will make things better often involves citing medical advances. And maybe capitalism places undue constraint on medical innovation. But I think the case of the effective "curing" of infectious diseases in the global north, by and large, argues against the idea that signficant public health gains are impossible under capitalism.

Perhaps this is the core problem with why diseases haven't been eradicated in the third world, although this isn't so much a critique of capitalism per se as it is a critique of how capitalist ideas are implemented under current coditions, which even American lolbertarians would describe as imperfect.

Just to clarify, I am hardly a capitalist, but am merely interested in how others see this argument. Given that there is no serious example of "actually existing socialism", are claims of medical improvements under socialism largely beside the point? Do they distract from the core of the critique of capitalism, unduly exposing our arguments to an aspect of human existence which grudgingly capitalism seems to have delivered, at least for some segment of the global population?

I don't know, man; rose-scented fecal matter, and a pony. (!!!) That's a tough call. (Just kidding.) Also; god help us if this, admittedly, unlikely choice ever becomes a reality; the 10-year-old girls will lead us straight to hell.

Jokes aside; you've really answered you're own question. Those arguments are woefully deficient, and deeply problematic, if you put them to the test. If one takes a clear, objective look at the situation, one would not conclude that capitalism (Which is, in itself, a mystification, anthropomorphizing capitalism, and removing it from it's social, and historical context.) has eradicated disease, in much of the developed world, but, rather; than capitalism has perpetuated, and continues to perpetuate needless suffering, all over the world. Millions die, annually, from treatable diseases, millions more starve. It's not that we don't have the resources; we have the medicine, we have enough food, it's that these items are rationed according to the profit motive. Defending capitalism on the grounds' of it's (Again; mystifying.) alleged ability to meet human needs presumes we care, primarily, about meeting human needs. If that were the case; we would never leave it up to the whims of an impersonal, and indifferent market. This is the unenviable position of the would-be defenders of the status quo; that of having to defend the indefensible.

Atilla
15th June 2013, 18:30
Interesting read.

KarlLeft
21st June 2013, 04:06
Sure, capitalism is great at organizing research...but only if it's profitable and therein lies the problem, I think. Who's to say cancer or AIDS wouldn't have been cured by now except for the fact that maybe it's more profitable to treat symptoms than it is to cure illness.

I'm not saying there's a secret committee of capitalists somewhere making conscious decisions not to cure certain diseases but, inevitably, a profit-driven system is only going to do something if it's profitable. Who knows what medical science might have been able to accomplish if, all this time, there had been some other motive besides profit to drive research?