Maoist trained to evade UAVs, choppers

[ind_com]

Maoist trained to evade UAVs, choppers: Surrendered rebel


RAIPUR: Maoists in Chhattisgarh are being imparted training to destroy and escape the unmanned aerial vehicles (UAVs) and other air-defence equipment like helicopters and surveillance systems, revealed a surrendered divisional commander of outlawed Communist Party of India (Maoist).

Naveen Nureddy, a divisional commander of Narayanpur, who surrendered recently has in a statement to the police said that he had joined the rebel ranks in 2000 and was given air defence training to destroy UAVs, additional director general of police (ADG) (Naxalite operations) Rajinder Kumar Vij told TOI.

During one of our operations targeting the rebels, Vij said, security forces had seized literature about functioning of UAVs from the Naxalites. "This indicates that they are aware about our technologies and are learning to defend themselves. "If at all they spot a UAV in the sky, they immediately hide in the bushes", he added.

Dismissing reports that UAVs had spotted Maoist movements two day before the May 25 ambush on Congress convoy, the ADG said, "Security agencies were informed about UAV spotting movement of armed cadre on May 23 around Chintagufa and Minpa. We had received unclear footage of people carrying something on their heads and we alerted forces at Minpa. But it turned out to be people returning from a weekly market", he said adding "In fact, we had sought permission to use UAVs for two days on May 22 and 23 from the base station of National Technical Research Organization (NTRO) in Hyderabad."

Vij also confirmed the reports that the UAV base station which is currently located in Hyderabad would be moved to Bhilai, Nandini airport this year. "It was in the pipeline since long and has nothing to do with the recent attack. Moving of base stations would not only make easy communication and personal monitoring but also save on flying time," he said.

A UAV can be used for 4-6 hours at a stretch and can fly during night with thermal cameras. There are chances that Bhilai base station would have more than one UAV. Talking about its limitations, the ADG said that UAVs cannot be used in cloudy weather or when it's raining.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/Maoist-trained-to-evade-UAVs-choppers-Surrendered-rebel/articleshow/20389475.cms

[Brutus]

Does this conceal the their heat signature?

[ind_com]

Does this conceal the their signature?

No idea of what that is.

[Brutus]

The heat your body gives off to infra red cameras, which are usually on drones

[Brutus]

Example of a heat signature through a thermal imaging camera:
http://www.x20.org/uploads/1_UAV-FLIR-camera-thermal-imaging.jpg
Its not from a drone, but you get the point

[Os Cangaceiros]

"If at all they spot a UAV in the sky, they immediately hide in the bushes", he added.


Sounds like some sophisticated evasion.

[Paul Pott]

Everything that isn't absolute zero emits light. Most things, including the human body, emit in the far infrared. The higher the temperature is, the higher the frequency and shorter the wavelength of the radiation emitted. Eventually you get into the visual spectrum, like when the heating elements in the oven start to glow red and orange hot.

Cameras that see in the far infrared are called Forward Looking Infrared, or FLIR. That's what modern aircraft use when they are trying to find someone in the woods or somewhere like that since the human body stands out nicely against the background. Searchlights are old school.

American drones can search for people to kill from 30,000 feet. Needless to say, if your strategy revolves around seeing it before it sees you, your ass is toast.

[helot]

if your strategy revolves around seeing it before it sees you, your ass is toast.
this^

It should be about destroying them before they take off or hacking into them.

[Paul Pott]

this^

It should be about destroying them before they take off or hacking into them.


The first is no easier than when they were carpet bombing, and the second isn't feasible unless you're China.

[helot]

The first is no easier than when they were carpet bombing, and the second isn't feasible unless you're China.

Fair enough mate.

I am wondering what methods they actually use to try and evade them other than hiding in a bush when they see one.


Maybe an extensive network of underground tunnels? That'd be pretty damn awesome tbh. Then all that's needed is for the moletariat to rise up.

[Paul Pott]

I assume it's one of these four ways to avoid FLIR:

-Don't be in the open.

-Don't look like a human.

-Don't look like a guerrilla.

-Don't look like the best target.

Common sense, really. Basically the same rules of camouflage as with eyeballs or conventional optics. You have the extra challenge of not contrasting with your environment in temperature. I'm not going to be fighting anywhere, so my life doesn't depend on hiding from any military.

[Deity]

Not to sound too stupid here, but would covering yourself in mud like in The movie predator work to conceal your heat signature?

[Paul Pott]

No. The mud would take on your body heat within seconds.

[ind_com]

Sounds like some sophisticated evasion.

:D


The heat your body gives off to infra red cameras, which are usually on drones

I have no idea regarding what Maoists do to stop that, but one way to evade drones is to move the PLGA units through routes normally taken by large crowds of civilians. Maoists did this once when the forests of a region were sprayed with some kind of ink for future detection of guerrillas.

[ind_com]

No. The mud would take on your body heat within seconds.

I think that it might be possible to develop some kind of insulatory clothing that serves the purpose.

[Paul Pott]

I have no idea regarding what Maoists do to stop that, but one way to evade drones is to move the PLGA units through routes normally taken by large crowds of civilians. Maoists did this once when the forests of a region were sprayed with some kind of ink for future detection of guerrillas.

Do you have more information on this?


I think that it might be possible to develop some kind of insulatory clothing that serves the purpose.

It would need to be combined with something that reflects heat to be truly effective.

The thing though is they don't need to totally disappear to hide. The jungle is full of life and things around the same temperature as the human body. Large and small animals, birds, rocks and trash in the sun, etc.

[PC LOAD LETTER]

Maybe one of those mylar-ish emergency blankets from a camping supply store? They reflect your body heat back onto you.

I mean, obviously if you're a guerilla you can't go to REI, but the same concept.


[edit]


"Space blanket", thank you google

[piet11111]

I think that it might be possible to develop some kind of insulatory clothing that serves the purpose.

I have heard some Taliban are experimenting with stuff like that in blanket form.

If they think there might be a drone around they drop to the ground and cover themselves with a special blanket.

But would standing under a tree not be sufficient to block out the signature like you see with those police helicopter chases ?
Like in this video around the 1 minute mark if the car passes under a tree

EXc5PVQfn50

[o well this is ok I guess]

According to WikiHow

While the greenery will not dim your heat signature, it will break up the silhouette that the camera shows and make you look less like a human. Done correctly, the heat signature is so dispersed it is usually overlooked

[Brutus]

No. The mud would take on your body heat within seconds.

Have you seen predator? Lies!

[Paul Pott]

According to WikiHow

Actually it will totally block it if the foliage is thick enough it doesn't have any openings.

Even under thin foliage you would look like a group of small rocks or birds from something at high altitude. Don't look like a human and you won't warrant any attention from something that is trying to surveil x square miles.

[Paul Pott]

Have you seen predator? Lies!

Arnold is so cold blooded it just might work.

[The Douche]

As somebody who spent 6 years in various recon and scout units in the army, and who has used FLIR systems more times than I can count, including using them in urban areas (Iraq), the only real way to hide from FLIR, is to hide in plain sight.

If you're out in the bush, and they're tracking you with FLIR, you better make sure you don't look like a combatant, and you better make sure you don't do anything shifty. Space blankets and stuff, people have talked about using them to disrupt FLIR for a long time, I have personally looked through an LRAS at a friend using a space blanket, at a 400 yards+ it worked well, especially if worn behind some trees/bushes or inside a vehicle. I think they could be used effectively to line shelters.

But yeah, if you're out in Tora Bora or the Indian jungle, and they spot you with FLIR, and you drop to the ground and pull out your space blanket, they're probably gonna light your ass up.

[Paul Pott]

The problem with a space blanket by itself is that it will reflect the sky and stand out as a suspicious cold rectangle.

Also, space blankets are shiny. You still have to be concerned about visual detection.

Space blankets would also be super visible to radar.

[Tim Cornelis]

Not to sound too stupid here, but would covering yourself in mud like in The movie predator work to conceal your heat signature?

I was going to ask the same thing with the same phrase ("I don't mean to sound stupid") and reference Predator. Great minds think alike, and so do stupid minds apparently.
I was also going to ask if aluminium foil helps against detection...?
And isn't there this kind of thermo fabric that hides body heat? During occupy, a newspaper reported that no one was sleeping in the tents and used a heat detector to photograph this, but then it was shown that these could not detect the heat due to this special fabric... Could wearing this fabric help?

[Paul Pott]

Aluminum foil would probably work.

I don't know what those tents are made of, but if they have IR blocking properties it's definitely something to look into.

Much new military camouflage does:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsgUblarRNc

[Brutus]

The Taliban use a thick blanket, but this becomes hot and detectable after a while, so can only be used as a temporary measure

[The Douche]

The Taliban use a thick blanket, but this becomes hot and detectable after a while, so can only be used as a temporary measure

I'm not saying they don't do this, and I'm not saying it won't work "temporarily", but I would say a "thick blanket" might give you about a minute.

Also remember the ambient temperature around you. The human body is 98 degrees, what thermal imaging is picking up is the contrast between your body heat and the objects around you. So the usefulness of thermal technology is much more limited, in say, a large city, where there are many surfaces retaining heat for a long time, and there are many other bodies around.

In the woods or the desert there is not much to retain heat, so a human body becomes visible much more easily.


As for military uniforms/certain fabrics reducing/limiting IR, yes that is true, but it looses its potency over time, within a few washes really, and its not particularly effective, mostly a gimmick in my opinion.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Sounds like some sophisticated evasion.

Bush based evasion is one of the most important technological breakthroughs in Guerrilla Warfare since the cavemen invented the throwable rock

[Paul Pott]

What if like

you wore a bush as a hat.

Then you wouldn't have to dive under one.

Innovation.

[Rusty Shackleford]

There was a nifty little document on Maskirovka that i had seen a year or so ago. im trying to find it again. It talked about neat ways to evade and obscure radar. Its based on 80s technology but yeah.


for radar, they would have large traffic cone sized triangles with random sides with some sort of radar reflective surface on it interspersed over a long distance to obscure the movement of equipment and vehicles. either to create too many 'blips' or to compltetely blot out the spot.



edit: here it is:
http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj88/spr88/smith.html




obscuring with multiple sources of heat, say, on remote control trucks or stationary ones could be distracting. but the resolution on those cameras is pretty high. maybe pointing a strong laser beam at the camera or an infra red beam.

[The Douche]

There was a nifty little document on Maskirovka that i had seen a year or so ago. im trying to find it again. It talked about neat ways to evade and obscure radar. Its based on 80s technology but yeah.


for radar, they would have large traffic cone sized triangles with random sides with some sort of radar reflective surface on it interspersed over a long distance to obscure the movement of equipment and vehicles. either to create too many 'blips' or to compltetely blot out the spot.



edit: here it is:
http://www.airpower.au.af.mil/airchronicles/apj/apj88/spr88/smith.html




obscuring with multiple sources of heat, say, on remote control trucks or stationary ones could be distracting. but the resolution on those cameras is pretty high. maybe pointing a strong laser beam at the camera or an infra red beam.

An apache pilot can differentiate between an RC car and a body. You've seen gunship footage, right?

Also, if you shoot a laser at an apache he's gonna respond with 30mm.

The first rule of being an infantryman, if you see tanks or choppers, and they're not yours, you should leave.

[Rusty Shackleford]

An apache pilot can differentiate between an RC car and a body. You've seen gunship footage, right?

Also, if you shoot a laser at an apache he's gonna respond with 30mm.

The first rule of being an infantryman, if you see tanks or choppers, and they're not yours, you should leave.

yeah thats why i pointed out that the cameras are high resolution. but, it was a thought.



what actually defeats the camera though? a really good marksman?


why am i even discussing this? im not even fighting a PPW...

[The Douche]

You can't defeat an apache unless you have a stinger or you hit it on the ground.

[DROSL]

I've got few Al-Quaeda documents instructing exactly what to do with drones. It has been leaked few months ago. The hardest part is to cover your body's heat.

[Rugged Collectivist]

I vaguely remember hearing about a serial killer who evaded the police by using a homemade suit composed mostly of tin foil while he was skulking around the forest. This was years ago though and I don't know when he was actually doing it so his methods may be outdated.



I've got few Al-Quaeda documents instructing exactly what to do with drones. It has been leaked few months ago. The hardest part is to cover your body's heat.

"I've got a few Al-Qaeda documents" probably isn't something you should mention in public.

[blake 3:17]

I posted in the art section, but thought be of interest in this thread. The artist featured has worked on issues of surveillances and legibility. The video works on:
The video is partly inspired by the photo calibration targets in the California desert, which look like giant pixels in the ground. As described by the Center for Land Use Interpretation, these targets were used in the age of analog aerial photography to test the resolution of airborne cameras, like a kind of optometrist's chart for the ancestors of drones.

http://rhizome.org/editorial/2013/may/31/hito-steyerl-how-not-to-be-seen/

[khad]

An apache pilot can differentiate between an RC car and a body. You've seen gunship footage, right?

Also, if you shoot a laser at an apache he's gonna respond with 30mm.

The first rule of being an infantryman, if you see tanks or choppers, and they're not yours, you should leave.
Yeah, I'm somewhat puzzled by Rusty's decision to post that article, since maskirovka is an army-level concept that requires coordination of numerous, variegated elements to convey an overall operational effect. Historically, maskirovka concepts have been less about hiding and more about deceiving the enemy of your intentions, to convince him that an operation is going to commence at point A when you're really redirecting forces to point B.

In his defense, though, I think he means dummy vehicles with heat sources simulating actual ones. Stuff like this worked fairly well in Yugoslavia, since they had air defenses that forced NATO airpower to higher altitudes, making their sensors less accurate.

Things like using radar reflectors for SAM sites and wooden dummies for planes and vehicles are time-tested tricks of the trade. In this day and age, concealment is less viable, but imitation and simulation are. These dummy Mig-29s were perhaps the most famous examples of Yugoslav ingenuity; they even had fires to simulate the heat from engine signatures.

The fact is, though, the average dumbass or even Joe Taliban isn't going to be able to pull off something like this. Doable by an industrial army seeking to protect its assets, but of little help to the average schmuck trying to hide from the eye in the sky.


http://www.truthinmedia.org/images/NatoWar/mig-29-1.jpg http://www.truthinmedia.org/images/NatoWar/mig-29-2.jpg

Some scenes from the Serb "M-18" factory...

http://www.truthinmedia.org/images/NatoWar/mig-29-3.jpg http://www.truthinmedia.org/images/NatoWar/mig-29-4.jpg

http://www.truthinmedia.org/images/NatoWar/mig-29-5.jpg http://www.truthinmedia.org/images/NatoWar/mig-29-7.jpg

http://www.truthinmedia.org/images/NatoWar/mig-29-6.jpg

http://www.truthinmedia.org/images/NatoWar/mig-29-8.jpg