Bro tells Glenn Beck to read Foucault

[The Douche]

Sorry about the shitty rap song at the end, but this is actually cool.

HK6-kbdHE2A

[khad]

You guys see the Vice documentary on this? This guy is a toal ancap. At the 7 min mark:
DconsfGsXyA


The question that I hear a lot is, well, why does anyhone need an ammunition clip for more than 30 rounds? Or 30 rounds? Why does anyone need that? Don't you know they can do all kinds of harm with that? Why shouldn't we limit their reload times?

But I think there's an error here, and I can, like, demonstrate it in other ways. Why does anyone need two houses? Why does anyone need to make more than $400,000? You hear it every day. It's just a kind of dim view of human spontaneity.Yep, capitalism is just the natural expression of human spontaneity.


Sorry about the shitty rap song at the end, but this is actually cool.

On the contrary; I found it hilarious and instructive. It's yet another one of the neckbearded, basement-dwelling left's attempts to feign political relevance by riding on some bourgeois personality's coattails.

[bad ideas actualised by alcohol]

What just happened? Guy said "anarchist" and "left" and Beck didn't raise his voice?
Is Glenn Beck getting therapy or getting pills or something? This is strange.

[Pirate Utopian]

The guy is pretty interesting, I saw a few interviews he did including one with Alex Jones.

[The Douche]

Why is he an "anarcho-capitalist"? That bit from the video that you reference, khad, is not "pro-capitalist". He's just making a comparison, communism doesn't mean a limit on your annual income or how many homes you can own. Not to mention the dude is probably not what one would call a "communist", but that certainly does not mean he can't be my bro.

I think you're gonna have a really, really, really, hard time reconciling Foucault with capitalist ideology in a coherent way.


Edit: I see that he has called himself a "market-anarchist" in the past, seems like one of the "anarchist without adjectives" types, or a pomo critical theory nerd. I would probably consider him an ally, but I can see why most revleft posters wouldn't, which is neither here nor there, because most revleft posters would not be my comrades anyway.

[khad]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cody_Wilson


Cody Rutledge Wilson (born January 31, 1988) is an American law student, self-proclaimed crypto-anarchist[1] and a market anarchist.[2] He is the founder and director of Defense Distributed, a non-profit organization that develops and publishes open source gun designs, so-called "Wiki Weapons," suitable for 3D printing.[3][4]

Wilson is a second year law student at The University of Texas School of Law in Austin, Texas.[5][6] He describes himself as being influenced by a wide array of anti-state and libertarian political thinkers[7] ranging from Left-wing market anarchists such as the Mutualist scholar Pierre-Joseph Proudhon,[8][9] to Right-libertarians such as the Austrian scholar Hans-Herman Hoppe and classical liberal scholar Frederic Bastiat.[7][2]From mutualism to Austrian economics. Quite an ideological range, don't you think? Too bad it's all capitalist.

[The Douche]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cody_Wilson

From mutualism to Austrian economics. Quite an ideological range, don't you think? Too bad it's all capitalist.

I don't think mutualism is capitalist.

[khad]

I don't think mutualism is capitalist.
And Austrian economics is right anarchocommunist, amirite?

[The Douche]

And Austrian economics is right anarchocommunist, amirite?

Just because he agrees with something I oppose doesn't mean we aren't allies. I don't even care much about his politics, 1) his political actions stand alone (like wikileaks) 2) he presents himself in that interview as a potential ally of mine, maybe he is, maybe he isn't...

[Os Cangaceiros]

I think that a lot of the "crypto-anarchists" and even some of the "market anarchists" are good people who have their hearts in the right place, even if they're not on the same level with me politically. (Although they usually have better social positions than 99% of your garden variety liberals and conservatives).

[goalkeeper]

Why is he an "anarcho-capitalist"? That bit from the video that you reference, khad, is not "pro-capitalist". He's just making a comparison, communism doesn't mean a limit on your annual income or how many homes you can own. Not to mention the dude is probably not what one would call a "communist", but that certainly does not mean he can't be my bro.

I think you're gonna have a really, really, really, hard time reconciling Foucault with capitalist ideology in a coherent way.


Edit: I see that he has called himself a "market-anarchist" in the past, seems like one of the "anarchist without adjectives" types, or a pomo critical theory nerd. I would probably consider him an ally, but I can see why most revleft posters wouldn't, which is neither here nor there, because most revleft posters would not be my comrades anyway.

I agree. I'd consider himself much more of an ally than someone who upholds the Warsaw Pacts states as the pinnacle of human achievement.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I agree. I'd consider himself much more of an ally than someone who upholds the Warsaw Pacts states as the pinnacle of human achievement.

The soviet Union disgusts me but I can honestly saw that I would prefer someone like a tankie over a hipster metaphysical cap-loving, boot licking wanker who likes to quote historical philosophers to try and staple his shitty right-wing politics to them.

[The Douche]

The soviet Union disgusts me but I can honestly saw that I would prefer someone like a tankie over a hipster metaphysical cap-loving, boot licking wanker who likes to quote historical philosophers to try and staple his shitty right-wing politics to them.

I love how people can gather such an accurate assessment of another person so quickly from a few quotes and video clips...

[ComradeOm]

I think you're gonna have a really, really, really, hard time reconciling Foucault with capitalist ideology in a coherent wayThe assumption being that this Wilson character holds a coherent set of beliefs. Given that he's appeared on a Glenn Beck show, that's quite a large assumption

But maybe you have to hand some biography/profile that explains how his admiration for Hans-Hermann Hoppe can be reconciled with 'left anarchist' influences? Or at least doesn't make him an anarcho-capitalist?


I agree. I'd consider himself much more of an ally than someone who upholds the Warsaw Pacts states as the pinnacle of human achievement.Of those two archetypes (and you're limiting yourself if you have to 'ally' with either) one is a harmless nutjob and the other a nutjob that appears on right-wing TV, talks of 'liberty and sovereignty' under threat and manufactures guns. I know what group that I'm more concerned about

[The Douche]

The assumption being that this Wilson character holds a coherent set of beliefs. Given that he's appeared on a Glenn Beck show, that's quite a large assumption

But maybe you have to hand some biography/profile that explains how his admiration for Hans-Hermann Hoppe can be reconciled with 'left anarchist' influences? Or at least doesn't make him an anarcho-capitalist?

Of those two archetypes (and you're limiting yourself if you have to 'ally' with either) one is a harmless nutjob and the other a nutjob that appears on right-wing TV, talks of 'liberty and sovereignty' under threat and manufactures guns. I know what group that I'm more concerned about

hahaha. Thats the point, finding out who is your friend and who is your enemy.

[Paul Pott]

At heart just another Randian antisocial radical.

[The Douche]

Revleft sure has changed a lot since 2004.

[Paul Pott]

I think that a lot of the "crypto-anarchists" and even some of the "market anarchists" are good people who have their hearts in the right place, even if they're not on the same level with me politically.


Why? Your political integrity is none of my concern, and frankly left and right wing anarchists sound so much alike on other things from my perspective. But their first and last concern is the defense and worship of capital, which to them is the essence of liberty or whatever. They oppose the state on those grounds, because they don't understand how the world functions. Regardless of whatever other philosophical baggage they carry, without their fallacy on the state they are the same as neoliberals, paternal religious conservatives of the anti-globalization variety, or Latin American caudillos.

[ComradeOm]

hahaha. Thats the point, finding out who is your friend and who is your enemy.You'll have to elaborate because that wasn't my point at all

Unless of course you're suggesting that someone that I'm concerned about is a potential "friend" of yours? In which case feel free to go ahead and join the EDL or the army

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Revleft sure has changed a lot since 2004.

Thank the fucking, nonexistent, fascist god for that, if there was really a period where the user base was closer to ancaps than to tankies.

But that assumes that the term "tankie" even makes sense. When I was younger, it was used for obnoxious types who thought communism meant wanking over Soviet military capacity. Now it seems that everyone who doesn't think the Soviet Union was THE WORSE THING EVER!!!!! is a tankie. Replace the Soviet Union with China or the DPR Korea, in some situations. The liberals always go into fits over Korea.

It annoys me that so many "leftists" are nothing more than Cold Warriors with some outdated hippie ideas and an aversion to "authoritarianism". In fact, it annoys me so much I ended up quoting the wrong post and had to edit my post.

[The Douche]

Thank the fucking, nonexistent, fascist god for that, if there was really a period where the user base was closer to ancaps than to tankies.

But that assumes that the term "tankie" even makes sense. When I was younger, it was used for obnoxious types who thought communism meant wanking over Soviet military capacity. Now it seems that everyone who doesn't think the Soviet Union was THE WORSE THING EVER!!!!! is a tankie. Replace the Soviet Union with China or the DPR Korea, in some situations. The liberals always go into fits over Korea.

It annoys me that so many "leftists" are nothing more than Cold Warriors with some outdated hippie ideas and an aversion to "authoritarianism". In fact, it annoys me so much I ended up quoting the wrong post and had to edit my post.

No, there was a time when revleft was mostly populated by individuals actually active in different parts of the radical milieu, in real life. So the discussions being had were about the way various ideas actually related to what was going on, and what we (as militants or activists, depending on your interpretation of things) were experiencing, what was working or failing in our projects.

New theories were discussed regularly and people wanted to find out how they could use those new theories to refine their political work, or were motivated to show the uselessness of those theories, and to make their arguments in an intelligent and passionate way, something you can't fake if communism is just an RPG.

Now revleft is populated by for whom radical politics is a hobby that they engage with on the internet, revleft is political activity for many people who post here now. And that is pathetic. And that is why people are far more interested in talking about some historical event than anything else, thats why the board is filled with sectarian squabbles, because that is what communism is to most people around here.



I'm glad you put leftists in quotes, for future reference, I abhor the term.

[ComradeOm]

No, there was a time when revleft was mostly populated by individuals actually active in different parts of the radical milieu, in real lifeYeah, I call bullshit. When I joined RevLeft was no more a hive of radical organisation than it is now. It's quite possible that more activist posters have been driven off (see below) but the overall population mix has not changed significantly. And the idea that the site has become more sectarian in recent years is just laughable (to anyone who saw the CC purge itself at least).

What is true is that the quality of discussion has dropped radically in recent years as constructive posters were driven off. But, irony of ironies, you are more to blame than most for that. Funny that, no?

[The Douche]

Yeah, I call bullshit. When I joined RevLeft was no more a hive of radical organisation than it is now. It's quite possible that more activist posters have been driven off (see below) but the overall population mix has not changed significantly. And the idea that the site has become more sectarian in recent years is just laughable (to anyone who saw the CC purge itself at least).

What is true is that the quality of discussion has dropped radically in recent years as constructive posters were driven off. But, irony of ironies, you are more to blame than most for that. Funny that, no?

I'm not really interested in talking about when revleft went bad. But things like what is bolded are best reserved for PMs or walls or whatever, and I resent the statement.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

No, there was a time when revleft was mostly populated by individuals actually active in different parts of the radical milieu, in real life.

Somehow I doubt that. I mean, there probably were quite a few users who were active in the various socialist organisations. Just as there are now. But I've browsed through the archives on several occasions, and most of the content - ah, let's be honest, it looks subpolitical to me.


Now revleft is populated by for whom radical politics is a hobby that they engage with on the internet, revleft is political activity for many people who post here now. And that is pathetic. And that is why people are far more interested in talking about some historical event than anything else, thats why the board is filled with sectarian squabbles, because that is what communism is to most people around here.

Ahahaha, yes, because restricting all Marxists-Leninists was the height of unsectarian behaviour. And when some long-term members start threatening to restrict emels (and probably orthotrots, but no one cares about us anyway) again (which would incidentally cost this site some of its more intelligent users and staff members, but whatever), that is also not sectarian. Bollocks.

[ComradeOm]

I'm not really interested in talking about when revleft went bad. But things like what is bolded are best reserved for PMs or walls or whatever, and I resent the statement.Then I suggest that in future you don't bring it up. Because you do not get a free pass to publicly decry how all the good posters have left

[Pirate Utopian]

He explains his political philosophy here;

v3zx8kyVtGM
ZTTbkcj3JA4

I think it's kinda simplistic to simply write him off as a dumb ancap.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Does he support the market while claiming to be against the state? He does. Then he is no comrade of ours. Nor our "bro". Sometimes simple analyses are enough.

[The Douche]

Does he support the market while claiming to be against the state? He does. Then he is no comrade of ours. Nor our "bro". Sometimes simple analyses are enough.

He doesn't "support the market". Even though he may sometimes propose the concept of markets or accept that there may be markets in the future.

But I should say again, that I don't think mutualism is capitalist.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

But I should say again, that I don't think mutualism is capitalist.

And in doing so you would be wrong.

[The Douche]

And in doing so you would be wrong.

Ok.

[Os Cangaceiros]

What a productive discussion!


Why? Your political integrity is none of my concern, and frankly left and right wing anarchists sound so much alike on other things from my perspective. But their first and last concern is the defense and worship of capital, which to them is the essence of liberty or whatever. They oppose the state on those grounds, because they don't understand how the world functions. Regardless of whatever other philosophical baggage they carry, without their fallacy on the state they are the same as neoliberals, paternal religious conservatives of the anti-globalization variety, or Latin American caudillos.

Actually I don't subscribe to the view that people have to share my exact same politics in order for me to admire them in some respect. I'm not an African nationalist but I admire Amilcar Cabral and Samora Machel in some respects, even though I'm opposed to their politics in more than one aspect. If you're view of "how the world functions" is the only one that's correct (and therefore nothing of value can ever be gleaned from anyone else's perspective, politically-speaking), than 99.9% of people in this country are the equivalent of "Latin American caudillos" :rolleyes:

Whatever their other faults, radical individualists will (and have) fought tooth-and-nail against being forced into traditional Taylorist/Fordist systems of production, and I can definitely respect that. Unlike some other leftists, I don't view work as a sacrament.

[Os Cangaceiros]

As far as I'm concerned anyone who undercuts the state's authority, humiliates the state or otherwise cripples the state's ability to function in any way, shape or form is a friend of mine. I don't care if the hacker who releases classified cables is a libertarian or is to the left of Lenin. Fuck 'em.

[Paul Pott]

Actually I don't subscribe to the view that people have to share my exact same politics in order for me to admire them in some respect.

I don't think anyone does.


If you're view of "how the world functions" is the only one that's correct (and therefore nothing of value can ever be gleaned from anyone else's perspective, politically-speaking),

This isn't a question of one philosophy in the working class movement vs another. Ancaps and right wing anarchists are reactionaries.

So they oppose big bad authority, and extend this to the bourgeois state. What insights do they have to "glean" that aren't redundant? Their ideology is the purest expression of petty bourgeois philosophy.


than 99.9% of people in this country are the equivalent of "Latin American caudillos" :rolleyes:

So the majority of people don't identify with, or vote for, Republicans and Democrats? Maybe we should "glean" things from whatever happens to be popular and become eclectics and reformists. You don't have to be a strongman to defend capitalism.


Whatever their other faults, radical individualists will (and have) fought tooth-and-nail against being forced into traditional Taylorist/Fordist systems of production, and I can definitely respect that. Unlike some other leftists, I don't view work as a sacrament.

I'm aware of the 'everyone should take up farming/own a business/become self-sufficient' shtick. The petty bourgeoisie hates to be proletarianized or have its economic power eroded by the ruling class.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

He doesn't "support the market". Even though he may sometimes propose the concept of markets or accept that there may be markets in the future.

Yes, and I hear Margaret Thatcher isn't actually dead. She's just stopped breathing and decomposed.


But I should say again, that I don't think mutualism is capitalist.

"In theory" it is, since it requires de facto private ownership of the means of production; "in practice" it simply isn't possible. Regressive modes of production can't simply be resurrected, particularly not by the historically bankrupt and impotent class of artisans and shopkeepers.


As far as I'm concerned anyone who undercuts the state's authority, humiliates the state or otherwise cripples the state's ability to function in any way, shape or form is a friend of mine. I don't care if the hacker who releases classified cables is a libertarian or is to the left of Lenin. Fuck 'em.

Including scum like Karin Spaink? Anyway, communism is not the juvenile ideology of "sticking it to the man" or whatever. We don't go around applauding reactionaries when they fight the bourgeois state simply because they're fighting the bourgeois state (which the Douche's bro isn't really doing).

[The Douche]

As far as I'm concerned anyone who undercuts the state's authority, humiliates the state or otherwise cripples the state's ability to function in any way, shape or form is a friend of mine. I don't care if the hacker who releases classified cables is a libertarian or is to the left of Lenin. Fuck 'em.

To tag onto this, and to point out something quite poignant that he mentions in the video, about "real political acts". Whatever his ideology or world view is becomes largely irrelevant (or drastically less relevant) when his real actions benefit us as communist militants. And the fact that he recognizes this, and speaks to it, means that it is likely that there is room for us to work together.




"In theory" it is, since it requires de facto private ownership of the means of production; "in practice" it simply isn't possible. Regressive modes of production can't simply be resurrected, particularly not by the historically bankrupt and impotent class of artisans and shopkeepers.

I didn't say I am a mutualist, you don't need to explain to me why its not preferable, or particularly functional. I know this, its why I am not a mutualist. I am comrades with other people who believe in some form of private property (like Stirnerists), and depending on how you understand property, you can advocate for communism and property at the same time. Its just not property in the way capital understands it.

If you people can't understand that revolution and the seeing through of communism is going to be messy, confusing, at times contradictory, and is going to manifest itself in different ways in different places, at different times, well, then I don't really know how to help you other than to encourage you to use your heads. But then again, many of you want to see the restoration of the USSR...:rolleyes:

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm all for stickin' it to the man. :cool:

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I didn't say I am a mutualist, you don't need to explain to me why its not preferable, or particularly functional. I know this, its why I am not a mutualist. I am comrades with other people who believe in some form of private property (like Stirnerists), and depending on how you understand property, you can advocate for communism and property at the same time.

Personal property, yes. But not private property. Ancaps, mutualists etc. advocate private property, therefore they are not communists as the term is commonly used.


If you people can't understand that revolution and the seeing through of communism is going to be messy, confusing, at times contradictory, and is going to manifest itself in different ways in different places, at different times, well, then I don't really know how to help you other than to encourage you to use your heads.

And we should embrace confusion rather than trying to struggle against it? But then again, you probably consider struggling against confusion to be "authoritarian".


But then again, many of you want to see the restoration of the USSR...:rolleyes:

I'd rather live in the Soviet Union than in the present society, in ancap or mutualist business federations, or in the woods, true.


I'm all for stickin' it to the man. :cool:

So, do you applaud Karin Spaink and consider her your comrade/"bro"/whatever?

[A Revolutionary Tool]

No, there was a time when revleft was mostly populated by individuals actually active in different parts of the radical milieu, in real life. So the discussions being had were about the way various ideas actually related to what was going on, and what we (as militants or activists, depending on your interpretation of things) were experiencing, what was working or failing in our projects.

New theories were discussed regularly and people wanted to find out how they could use those new theories to refine their political work, or were motivated to show the uselessness of those theories, and to make their arguments in an intelligent and passionate way, something you can't fake if communism is just an RPG.

Now revleft is populated by for whom radical politics is a hobby that they engage with on the internet, revleft is political activity for many people who post here now. And that is pathetic. And that is why people are far more interested in talking about some historical event than anything else, thats why the board is filled with sectarian squabbles, because that is what communism is to most people around here.



I'm glad you put leftists in quotes, for future reference, I abhor the term.
Isn't this a thread in non-political that you started which is kind of lacking in anything meaningful to talk about? I mean the title is "Bro tells Glenn Beck to read Foucault". Cool, somebody told Glenn Beck to read Foucault, what did you expect, a lively discussion about how that is going to effect organizing or something?

I'm just saying, if you're going to start threads like this how are you going to make the critique that the level of discussion has lowered? I know you're talking more about the whole board, you posted this is NP, but I just find it kind of ironic that you're going to make a thread like this(I don't give a fuck about somebody telling Glenn Beck to read a book) and then complain that people aren't on whatever level you want them at. What's more interesting to talk about? Someone telling Glenn Beck to read a book(It's more interesting when Glenn Beck tells people to read a book, I know) or you calling someone who may be an ancap a "bro". Especially when you've told a lot of freakin' people here that they are not "allies" over petty little shit(Like how I'm not an ally because I don't think smashing windows every march in Oakland is conducive to struggle).

[ComradeOm]

To tag onto this, and to point out something quite poignant that he mentions in the video, about "real political acts". Whatever his ideology or world view is becomes largely irrelevant (or drastically less relevant) when his real actions benefit us as communist militants. And the fact that he recognizes this, and speaks to it, means that it is likely that there is room for us to work together.There is no practical benefit to the publishing of these plans. The only reason this has gotten any notice is that it pushes the two current media hot buttons of 'guns will save/end us all' and '3D printing is like totally awesome'. There is no way in which making a gun via 3D printing is feasible (on any scale) or efficient. The world has not changed and amateur/artisan production is no more feasible than it was before this.

The symbolic value of the gesture... well, that's already been appropriated by the Right. Hence the appearance on Glenn Beck. Guns and individual rights is exactly what his show tends to bang on about, right?

[Jimmie Higgins]

I don't know anything about this guy and I'm at work so I didn'tr watch the videos because I don't want to be caught both on a Leftist website and watching Glenn Beck (in the bay area) at the same time :D.

I'm not really convinced of really any meaningful benifit to the gun design leak - in a country where guns are fairly easy to get and 3-D printers and much harder to get. And unless radicals can print out a trained copy of the entire US military, we aren't ultimately going to be able to do much with force of arms primarily or solely anyway. Now if he uploaded the new Game of Thrones episode before it aired... well then, that's a whole different story :laugh:.

But on the general shit-fest about his politics: well like I said, I don't know anything about him, but the WikiLeaks guy is a libertarian and maybe a rapist. I wouldn't consider him a bro, but he did us all a solid none-the-less with some of the military leaks. People can do the right thing for the wrong conception (or do the right thing but be an asshole) - they do it all the time.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

That might be the case, but we don't call them comrades, allies or "bros" over that. That is the attitude of the "wanderers into the void" who can't see the difference between the right and the left.

And in any case, surely even the most extreme insurrectos, who think they can take on the state with a submachine gun and hip slang, realise that a 3D printer and the material required to print the guns cost more than the good, old, honest black market?

[khad]

'm not really convinced of really any meaningful benifit to the gun design leak - in a country where guns are fairly easy to get and 3-D printers and much harder to get. And unless radicals can print out a trained copy of the entire US military, we aren't ultimately going to be able to do much with force of arms primarily or solely anyway. Now if he uploaded the new Game of Thrones episode before it aired... well then, that's a whole different story.
It's all about exploiting a legal loophole. Currently all the serialization that makes a weapon traceable is in the lower receiver. It's not actually 3D printing a gun; it's printing one part of a gun to make it untraceable. Hobbyists have been doing this before by making the lower out of wood, and you or I could easily do it with the right tools.

However, you'd still need a metalsmith to make the other parts of gun, particularly stuff like the barrel.

Everyone makes a big deal about 3D printing because here in the West we're too lazy to pick up actual machining skills, you know, something that enables Pakistani peasants to reverse engineer all kinds of guns without the help of a 5000 dollar plastic-extruding novelty.

rT_d9-52D04

[human strike]

As far as I'm concerned anyone who undercuts the state's authority, humiliates the state or otherwise cripples the state's ability to function in any way, shape or form is a friend of mine. I don't care if the hacker who releases classified cables is a libertarian or is to the left of Lenin. Fuck 'em.

I think this is an important point. The fetish the Left has for ideological debate means the practical (and communist) implications of what people are actually doing are missed. Frankly, it's unmaterialist.

[The Douche]

It's all about exploiting a legal loophole. Currently all the serialization that makes a weapon traceable is in the lower receiver. It's not actually 3D printing a gun; it's printing one part of a gun to make it untraceable. Hobbyists have been doing this before by making the lower out of wood, and you or I could easily do it with the right tools.

However, you'd still need a metalsmith to make the other parts of gun, particularly stuff like the barrel.

Everyone makes a big deal about 3D printing because here in the West we're too lazy to pick up actual machining skills, you know, something that enables Pakistani peasants to reverse engineer all kinds of guns without the help of a 5000 dollar plastic-extruding novelty.

rT_d9-52D04

I'm not sure if you know this, but the lower reciever of an AR15 is the "firearm", per US law. So, all other parts (barreled upper assembly, buffer tube/stock assembly, magazines etc) can be bought and sold person to person, they are the items that are "parts". Not to mention that the printers would be capable of printing other weapon systems, the AR15 was picked because of 1) the controversy 2) the patent on the AR lower has expired (or was sold to the government maybe, I dunno, the design is free to be used by anybody). (also, this is not about a "loophole", its a not a loophole, the law was specifically designed to allow people to continue the art of gunsmithing)

And let me know when you've handled a Khyber Pass rifle, and we'll compare it to a 3d printed AR.:laugh::laugh::laugh:


And in any case, surely even the most extreme insurrectos, who think they can take on the state with a submachine gun and hip slang, realise that a 3D printer and the material required to print the guns cost more than the good, old, honest black market?

You're an idiot, and you show your ass everytime you talk about anarchism, nobody believes what you suggest, except maybe some youthful marxist-leninists.


But to respond to the issue of "using 3d printers to make guns" and how that fits into the revolutionary puzzle... Its not about guns, its not about reaching a peak amount of guns in the hands of poor people and suddenly communism is realized. The state's power hinges on its monopoly on violence, when militants of the class, or the class itself has wide access to arms it weakens the state's monopoly on violence, whether the class/the militants use the arms or not. Its not necessarily about a shooting conflict, its about having the ability and the willingness to have that shooting conflict if necessary.

As for revolutionary potential in 3d printing, that remains to be seen. You people crying about the cost aren't using your heads, its a brand new technology, computers used to be insanely expensive when they first came out, and I bet there were naysayers talking about how they woul never effect normal people, because they would never be affordable...

Afterall, you can print a 3d printer, from a 3d printer.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I think this is an important point. The fetish the Left has for ideological debate means the practical (and communist) implications of what people are actually doing are missed. Frankly, it's unmaterialist.
Just because someone has come up with a new way to undermine the system doesn't mean they should be considered an ally politically. If some fascist had come up with the idea would you consider them an ally? Then why would people who support a fucking insane version of capitalism be an ally. Of course it could be utilized by ourselves but that's not going to warrant becoming their ally. I mean how many things can you thank the military industrial complex for? Military tactics? One doesn't have to be a Maoist to get something from Mao's military writings on Guerrilla Warfare.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

I guess it could be seen as taking the means of production and the monopolisation of violence out of the hands of the bourgeois state. Personally I'd be more supportive of radical unions taking over the factories in which guns are made now. At the end of the day, it's about dismantling the military industrial complex but I'm not certain which tactic would bear more fruit. Certainly neither at the moment with the material conditions of both organised labour and technological availability of 3D printers but this could change at any moment.

As for the guy himself; I have literally no opinion. Foucault is pretty cool but from personal interaction with ideological parrots it means nothing that he got mentioned.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I guess it could be seen as taking the means of production and the monopolisation of violence out of the hands of the bourgeois state. Personally I'd be more supportive of radical unions taking over the factories in which guns are made now. At the end of the day, it's about dismantling the military industrial complex but I'm not certain which tactic would bear more fruit. Certainly neither at the moment with the material conditions of both organised labour and technological availability of 3D printers but this could change at any moment.

As for the guy himself; I have literally no opinion. Foucault is pretty cool but from personal interaction with ideological parrots it means nothing that he got mentioned.
How? The means of production to create weapons are in the hands of private manufacturers I believe and how does this take the monopolization of violence out of the hands of the state? I could easily go out, buy a gun from some dude illegally, and murder somebody right now. This happens all the time. As Khad said, this is just the lazy way of making your own gun which is already completely possible if you have the skills. It could introduce a easier DIY way to obtain a gun and could happen on a mass scale I guess if a lot of people had access to 3D printers. But this country is already FULL of guns, revolution hasn't popped off yet, state hasn't been legitimately challenged at all.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Yeah I'm not from the US and even if I was I don't think it'd be such a simple process as 'easily' going out and getting a gun illegally. In the UK - not to say that there is no gun crime whatsoever - the state has a monopoly on firearms and the production of firearms.

I didn't word it very well when I suggested it would be 'taking the means of production ... out of the hands of the bourgeois state'. I was actually trying to indicate, as you suggested, that every worker has the potential to produce anything up to and including firearms and 3D printers can facilitate that production perhaps on a more industrial scale.

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

I don't think mutualism is capitalist.

Hey, the guy is a petty-bourgeois. Naturally, he is pro-capitalist. The petty-bourgeoisie is by definition a confused class which can go either backward or forward. Obviously, we now live in a new age. An age where the vast majority of the western population are wage dependent/working class, becoming proletarianized, losing their houses, their benefits and their wages while productivity of labor is increasing through the radical advance of technology. The Proletariat and its values are resurging in a massive way.

Popular wisdom that the Dollar controls politics; the fact that the ever-aristocracising US Plutocracy has for all to see an iron grip over the US State, rules the US system; increasing "wealth inequality", US society being so visibly divided into two camps: bourgeois and proletarian; the US being an ethnically diverse and majority urban populated country; the proportion of proletarians in US society growing etc. etc. - added on top of the current systemic crisis of capitalism, in which the scrambling petty-bourgeoisie sees itself confronted with ever monopolizing big business, unfair economic/political competition or its own proletarianization through monopoly capital - one cannot see any other viable option for the confused middle class to be relieved of their grievances than to eventually follow an organization of the majority of the US population which are ethnically diverse, urban workers. No organization will be able to go around that. Taking power in the United States means winning over the proletarian american majority-ethnic minority population .

The only chance the class enemy has left to survive in the US is military dictatorship. And the petty-bourgeoisie would not accept that.

But, without a proper proletarian party there can be no proletarian revolution.

[The Feral Underclass]

I quite liked the rap song.

[The Douche]

Are you guys proud of yourselves?

Somebody says and does some pretty wild things, that have revolutionary implications, but his ideas are very complex and contradictory.

So instead of really investing time and energy to learn about whats going on, and how events fit into the movement towards communism, you take the easiest way out you can find, you call him a "capitalist", and suddenly you no longer have to grapple with what he is saying or doing or what it means for the communist project. His ideas can just be dismissed, meanwhile posters on here quote a wall of text from some asshole who was the head of a capitalist state (or aspiring head of a capitalist state), and people are impressed.


How many of the detractors in this thread have even read Foucault?

[Aurora]

Your rattle seems to have gotten away from you. :lol:

Maybe you should learn some politics that aren't about supporting what's 'wild', i'd start with learning about class and class struggle that should help you understand how thoroughly petite-bourgeois yours and his politics are.

3d printers and printed guns don't have any revolutionary potential or implications btw, when they can print out class consciousness give me a call. :rolleyes:

[The Douche]

Your rattle seems to have gotten away from you. :lol:

Maybe you should learn some politics that aren't about supporting what's 'wild', i'd start with learning about class and class struggle that should help you understand how thoroughly petite-bourgeois yours and his politics are.

3d printers and printed guns don't have any revolutionary potential or implications btw, when they can print out class consciousness give me a call. :rolleyes:

Gee, I wonder which side of the barricade you'll be on.:rolleyes:

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

You're an idiot, and you show your ass everytime you talk about anarchism, nobody believes what you suggest, except maybe some youthful marxist-leninists.

R. Novatore did. So did W. Landstreicher. Of course, there are Marxists and "Marxists" whose tactical line is extreme insurrectionism with the serial number filed off - the Political-Military Communist Party, for example.


But to respond to the issue of "using 3d printers to make guns" and how that fits into the revolutionary puzzle... Its not about guns, its not about reaching a peak amount of guns in the hands of poor people and suddenly communism is realized.

One can only wonder, then, why communism had not been realised in the era of conscript armies. Or, for example, in Somalia. Could it be that "the poor" (what sort of class is "the poor"? what is their relation to the means of production?) are not always conscious of their interests, obviating the equivalence you draw between communist militants and "the poor".


As for revolutionary potential in 3d printing, that remains to be seen. You people crying about the cost aren't using your heads, its a brand new technology, computers used to be insanely expensive when they first came out, and I bet there were naysayers talking about how they woul never effect normal people, because they would never be affordable...

There were. And until certain advances in semiconductor technology were made, they were absolutely justified. I'm not sure the class struggle can wait for developments that might make 3D printing cost-efficient.

I mean, 3D printers are cool and all, but at the moment they can't do anything that a decent machine tool kit can't, and they're prohibitively expensive.


Afterall, you can print a 3d printer, from a 3d printer.

All machine tools can replicate themselves. And you can build machine tools from discarded engine blocks.


I guess it could be seen as taking the means of production and the monopolisation of violence out of the hands of the bourgeois state.

Not really. Alright, so technically anyone who has access to a 3D printer could print a rifle, but the state has the entire military apparatus on its side. Rifles might be effective against the local police or whatever, but they're rather useless against armoured transports, not to mention things like helicopters and main battle tanks.


Somebody says and does some pretty wild things, that have revolutionary implications, but his ideas are very complex and contradictory.

How are they complex and contradictory? To me they seem like fairly standard petit-bourgeois "libertarianism".


So instead of really investing time and energy to learn about whats going on, and how events fit into the movement towards communism, you take the easiest way out you can find, you call him a "capitalist", and suddenly you no longer have to grapple with what he is saying or doing or what it means for the communist project.

So, someone publishes the schematics that enable one to build a gun using machine tools, something that, er, people could already do, so that means we should treat them like some revolutionary genius and tail their confused petty bourgeois nonsense?


Gee, I wonder which side of the barricade you'll be on.:rolleyes:

The one where there are no ancaps, hopefully.

[The Douche]

Semendyaev, you have misread my post. Also, those parts of my post which you have not misread, you have misunderstood, and you are not arguing against what I'm saying, but against a caricature you have created.

You should take a step back and calm down, then come back to the discussion when you can process my posts (which are usually pretty short and free of any jargon) better, or at least ask for clarification where necessary.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Semendyaev, you have misread my post.

How? If I have misinterpreted you somehow, well, point out where I have done so.


You should take a step back and calm down, then come back to the discussion when you can process my posts (which are usually pretty short and free of any jargon) better, or at least ask for clarification where necessary.

I am calm; in fact I've always been calm. Theoretical confusion doesn't make me angry, unless actual revolutionary groups and situations are being derailed by lousy analysis. Someone calling an ancap their "bro" really isn't such a situation.

[o well this is ok I guess]

i'd start with learning about class and class struggle that should help you understand how thoroughly petite-bourgeois yours and his politics are.
Every time I see a post like this I want to come on revleft less

The one where there are no ancaps, hopefully. In what era did anyone look for ideological purity on the barricades?

[The Feral Underclass]

I'm confused about what's going on here.

I thought the point was simply that 3D machines can democratise weapon creation. I'm not sure why that's controversial...

[The Douche]

I'm confused about what's going on here.

I thought the point was simply that 3D machines can democratise weapon creation. I'm not sure why that's controversial...

No way TAT, all thats going on here is some anarcho-capitalist is on the Glenn Beck show and I am furiously masturbating myself to the notion of unwashed masses of the poor, lead by artisans and shop keepers, all wielding printed rifles.

[Aurora]

Every time I see a post like this I want to come on revleft less

Funny i feel the same way when worthless anarchists talk about being allies with small business owning, law student, libertarians or when their politics amount to cheering whatever is wild, fun or illegal rather than what advances and develops the working class and it's struggle against capital. But hey that's boring right?

[The Douche]

Funny i feel the same way when worthless anarchists talk about being allies with small business owning, law student, libertarians or when their politics amount to cheering whatever is wild, fun or illegal rather than what advances and develops the working class and it's struggle against capital. But hey that's boring right?

I'm not an anarchist, dweeb.

[The Douche]

I think the ultimate irony of this thread is that when I put "bro" in the title, I didn't actually mean I saw the dude as "my" bro, just that he is a "bro".

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Yeah I'm not from the US and even if I was I don't think it'd be such a simple process as 'easily' going out and getting a gun illegally. In the UK - not to say that there is no gun crime whatsoever - the state has a monopoly on firearms and the production of firearms.

I didn't word it very well when I suggested it would be 'taking the means of production ... out of the hands of the bourgeois state'. I was actually trying to indicate, as you suggested, that every worker has the potential to produce anything up to and including firearms and 3D printers can facilitate that production perhaps on a more industrial scale.

Yeah I imagine it's a lot easier to get a gun in the U.S. than it is to get a gun in Britain. We're a country full of guns, I could very easily buy a gun off the black market or even just walk into a gun show and buy it legally, we have them all the time.

I think maybe it could have potential if the price dropped(I looked them up and most were a couple thousand dollars, plus then you have to pay for material to print) but as someone else suggested, it's way easier and costs a lot less money to just buy a gun off the black market(at least here and I imagine most of the world).

[The Feral Underclass]

No way TAT, all thats going on here is some anarcho-capitalist is on the Glenn Beck show and I am furiously masturbating myself to the notion of unwashed masses of the poor, lead by artisans and shop keepers, all wielding printed rifles.

That sounds fun, I wonna join in.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I'm confused about what's going on here.

I thought the point was simply that 3D machines can democratise weapon creation. I'm not sure why that's controversial...

Really? I thought the whole point was "bro" told Glenn Beck to read a book which was pretty cool I guess. It's hardly a democratizing force when the class that needs to liberate itself doesn't usually have thousands upon thousands of dollars lying around. Most of us are living paycheck to paycheck. It could hardly have a real impact on any struggles now for the working class in America and especially no real revolutionary implications for workers in poorer countries at the moment.


Are you guys proud of yourselves?

Somebody says and does some pretty wild things, that have revolutionary implications, but his ideas are very complex and contradictory.

So instead of really investing time and energy to learn about whats going on, and how events fit into the movement towards communism, you take the easiest way out you can find, you call him a "capitalist", and suddenly you no longer have to grapple with what he is saying or doing or what it means for the communist project. His ideas can just be dismissed, meanwhile posters on here quote a wall of text from some asshole who was the head of a capitalist state (or aspiring head of a capitalist state), and people are impressed.


How many of the detractors in this thread have even read Foucault?
Says and does some pretty wild things? All this guy has done was utilize technology that enables you to print something in 3D off a schematic and put a schematic of a gun in there. Maybe that will interest me when it becomes practical for the working class to be able to invest in this on a mass scale but as of now I don't have the money to spend thousands upon thousands of dollars for a printed version of a gun when I could easily just ask around and get a gun for cheaper. What are the practical revolutionary implications of this right now? And I mean right now, not in the future where you say 3D printers will be cheaper(how many more decades until the new invention of cars get cheaper, I could really use one).


I think the ultimate irony of this thread is that when I put "bro" in the title, I didn't actually mean I saw the dude as "my" bro, just that he is a "bro".Da fok does that even mean? Plus in post 6 you say "Not to mention the dude is probably not what one would call a "communist", but that certainly does not mean he can't be my bro." So you don't say it in the title of the thread but you say it right there...I don't know the big difference since I usually only call people bro if they're my bro...

[The Feral Underclass]

Really? I thought the whole point was "bro" told Glenn Beck to read a book which was pretty cool I guess. It's hardly a democratizing force when the class that needs to liberate itself doesn't usually have thousands upon thousands of dollars lying around. Most of us are living paycheck to paycheck. It could hardly have a real impact on any struggles now for the working class in America and especially no real revolutionary implications for workers in poorer countries at the moment.

Do you understand what the word "can" means? It doesn't mean "has."

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Da fok does that even mean? Plus in post 6 you say "Not to mention the dude is probably not what one would call a "communist", but that certainly does not mean he can't be my bro." So you don't say it in the title of the thread but you say it right there...I don't know the big difference since I usually only call people bro if they're my bro...

"Bro" should become a banned word across the internet and all communication. Should be auto-censored, too.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Do you understand what the word "can" means? It doesn't mean "has."

Well in what sense can it have such revolutionary implications? I really don't buy the "it's going to be cheap" later stuff because that's not what happens with all commodities. If it does then it does but I'm not going to presuppose it just because that can maybe happen. If it doesn't have any practicality where's the revolutionary potential? At this point me and my people don't have those kinds of resources. And even if they do get really cheap and any person can have a gun factory in their room, this flag-waving anarcho-cap isn't going to be an ally.

Plus what are these guns even made of, plastic? Are they even durable or are they only going to last 20 rounds?

[The Douche]

Da fok does that even mean? Plus in post 6 you say "Not to mention the dude is probably not what one would call a "communist", but that certainly does not mean he can't be my bro." So you don't say it in the title of the thread but you say it right there...I don't know the big difference since I usually only call people bro if they're my bro...

Do you know what a bro is? Like, a dude in college who is in a fraternity, wears polo shirts and hair gel, plays beer pong, plays lacrosse.

And since everybody got super butthurt, I played along and declared him to be my bro, as opposed to a bro.

Whats unfortunate is that the majority of people posting in this thread are morons.



Like people who don't understand the revolutionary implications of somebody being able to print things into being. A 3d printer suitable to make an AR15 costs (right now) about $1000, and the plastic material to make the lower receiver is about $15 for enough to make one. Even that is not particularly expensive, especially when we consider that 3d printers can be printed from other 3d printers, so one could potentially make a 3d printer for not much more than $100.

If you can't see the way that this removes power from empire then you're being purposefully dense.

The interesting thing is all of you are being so disingenuous, if the guy was using 3d printers to make water purifiers would the argument be so drawn out? You are pretending we're fascinated by this because its guns, but thats only your assertion, that is not contained in the statements of any of us who have engaged with your tiresome and phony "arguments". Now it is of some interest that a gun was chosen, obviously it was done so that this project would get more attention.

And I think there are some interesting points raised by the issue of making weapons with this technology, in that it has the potential to put a gun in the hand of anybody who wants one. And despite what you idiots have said, its not "easy" to get a gun on the black market. Lol at any of you pasty nerds walking into the ghetto and up to the first hard looking dude you see and asking to buy a gun.

Pacification and "social peace" are an important part of empire's dominance, this potentially disrupts that goal, when empire tries to attain it (or reinforce it, really) through limiting the ownership of firearms.

I will say again, (and probably for the last time, because most of you will not engage in this discussion in a honest way) the reason this has radical implications is because it takes power away from empire, and disperses it amongst the broad masses of people, this is not explicitly communist (obviously), but it weakens empire and puts cracks in the spectacle, and those cracks are where we are supposed to be operating, as communist militants;

and since Semendyaev needs this restated, it is not about printing guns and arming ourselves (like I already said, communism does not simply hinge on arms in the hands of anyone), its about the ability to do so. (and so many other things, that are currently tightly controlled by empire, and are expensive)

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

I think the ultimate irony of this thread is that when I put "bro" in the title, I didn't actually mean I saw the dude as "my" bro, just that he is a "bro".
I understood you.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

First of all, having reread my previous post, I really did misread the Douche's post I was replying to, since I somehow neglected a crucial "not". I apologise for that. I don't think that really impacts my subsequent argument.


Do you know what a bro is? Like, a dude in college who is in a fraternity, wears polo shirts and hair gel, plays beer pong, plays lacrosse.

And since everybody got super butthurt, I played along and declared him to be my bro, as opposed to a bro.

This, however, is simply not true. You did not simply proclaim him your "bro"; you outright stated that since he did something that has revolutionary potential (according to you), we should pay attention to his ideas. And this is rank nonsense.


Like people who don't understand the revolutionary implications of somebody being able to print things into being.

As I stated earlier, this is simply an advanced form of machining. And a prohibitively expensive form of machining at that. As I said in my previous post, there exist schematics for machine tools that can be made from old engine blocks, something most locales should have.

The only advantage of 3D printers, at present at least, is that they require less skill. But in the long run, learning to machine is less expensive than simply buying a new 3D printer at every location.

Furthermore, rifles require training to use effectively - someone unskilled might print a shiny new rifle, but when the agents of "the empire" try to arrest them, chances are they'll accidentally kill or seriously hurt themselves before they're able to even wound one policeman.


A 3d printer suitable to make an AR15 costs (right now) about $1000, and the plastic material to make the lower receiver is about $15 for enough to make one. Even that is not particularly expensive, especially when we consider that 3d printers can be printed from other 3d printers, so one could potentially make a 3d printer for not much more than $100.

This is a misconception. The plastic parts of a 3D printer can be replicated easily, but the metal and electronic parts are problematic. Open-source 3D printers can't print anything but the plastic parts, and even if they could, how many of us have spare blocs of germanium just lying around?


The interesting thing is all of you are being so disingenuous, if the guy was using 3d printers to make water purifiers would the argument be so drawn out? You are pretending we're fascinated by this because its guns, but thats only your assertion, that is not contained in the statements of any of us who have engaged with your tiresome and phony "arguments". Now it is of some interest that a gun was chosen, obviously it was done so that this project would get more attention.

Or, perhaps, because ancaps have little use for water purifiers, but they're perpetually paranoid about the gummint taking away the money they own by divine right.


And I think there are some interesting points raised by the issue of making weapons with this technology, in that it has the potential to put a gun in the hand of anybody who wants one. And despite what you idiots have said, its not "easy" to get a gun on the black market. Lol at any of you pasty nerds walking into the ghetto and up to the first hard looking dude you see and asking to buy a gun.

Perhaps you should stop stereotyping people. I am, in fact, a pasty nerd, but I know at least two or three people who could help me get military hardware (if they didn't all think I was insane). I think any idiot can get a weapon in Croatia (a civil war tends to do that), and in fact all of the idiots seem to have done so already. That didn't weaken the state one bit.

[The Feral Underclass]

Well in what sense can it have such revolutionary implications?

Democratise doesn't mean revolutionary implication. I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.


I really don't buy the "it's going to be cheap" later stuff because that's not what happens with all commodities. If it does then it does but I'm not going to presuppose it just because that can maybe happen. If it doesn't have any practicality where's the revolutionary potential? At this point me and my people don't have those kinds of resources. And even if they do get really cheap and any person can have a gun factory in their room, this flag-waving anarcho-cap isn't going to be an ally.

Well if they were being used by groups to illegally mass produce weapons for revolutionaries, I can't imagine they would have done a whip around for it. Presumably there are other ways for revolutionaries to acquire things? Not that I was even talking about revolutionaries or cost. I was merely talking about the fact that you wouldn't need a manufacturer or the complex process, equipment and parts to produce a gun. You can also produce them covertly quite easily.

As for the guy in the video, I have no idea if he is an ally, he didn't really discuss his politics with much depth. Unless you can see into the future. Is that something you can do?


Plus what are these guns even made of, plastic? Are they even durable or are they only going to last 20 rounds?

I have no idea, this is the first time I've even heard about this.

[The Douche]

This, however, is simply not true. You did not simply proclaim him your "bro"; you outright stated that since he did something that has revolutionary potential (according to you), we should pay attention to his ideas. And this is rank nonsense.

If you don't see how expanding the ability of people to manufacture on their own (something which is specialized, guarded, and requires access to certain resources which are denied to the majority of proletarians), then this conversation is over.

And if you look at the original post, I don't say anything about him being my bro, you'll notice that doesn't happen until people get upset.

Your whole "prohibitively expensive" argument, is dumb. 3d printers do in fact open up a range of possibilities for manufacturing (and the democratisation of manufacturing).

Its just dumb for you to claim that a metalworking shop is cheaper than a 3d printer. Maybe you're right in Croatia, but certainly not in the states (at least, not in most parts of the US).


Furthermore, rifles require training to use effectively - someone unskilled might print a shiny new rifle, but when the agents of "the empire" try to arrest them, chances are they'll accidentally kill or seriously hurt themselves before they're able to even wound one policeman.

This is not about guns, I have made that extremely clear.


This is a misconception. The plastic parts of a 3D printer can be replicated easily, but the metal and electronic parts are problematic. Open-source 3D printers can't print anything but the plastic parts, and even if they could, how many of us have spare blocs of germanium just lying around?

Now I'm not an expert on 3d printing, but this does not add up with what I have learned from talking to people who did in fact build their own 3d printers, some items did have to be purchased, but they were still well under $1000, certainly under the cost of a full machine shop.


Or, perhaps, because ancaps have little use for water purifiers, but they're perpetually paranoid about the gummint taking away the money they own by divine right.

This is just you assigning values to an individual with nothing to really substantiate it, "that dude said he appreciates Von Mises, obviously he is a paranoid, delusional, anarcho-capitalist!". And it still ignores the fact, that what he is ultimately trying to do is disrupt the power of empire. (not "the empire" by the way, this isn't star wars)


Perhaps you should stop stereotyping people. I am, in fact, a pasty nerd, but I know at least two or three people who could help me get military hardware (if they didn't all think I was insane). I think any idiot can get a weapon in Croatia (a civil war tends to do that), and in fact all of the idiots seem to have done so already. That didn't weaken the state one bit.

Croatia is not England or the US, where most posters are from. And what do you think would happen if you walked up to a guy on the street in Harlem and asked "pardon me, sir, could you help me purchase a mac11"?

But again, its not about guns (necessarily), and you seem really, really fixated on the idea that production of arms is what I find so interesting about this. But really what I find so interesting about this is that the state suggested the idea of banning something and this fella came along and said "it won't do you any good, cause I can print what you banned from a computer in my living room", it strips power from empire, how do you not see that? Obviously, the further implication being that we could build what we could not buy, and if you don't see how that threatens empire, well, I think you're being dense on purpose.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Do you know what a bro is? Like, a dude in college who is in a fraternity, wears polo shirts and hair gel, plays beer pong, plays lacrosse.My bros are my friends but I'm aware of this "bro" culture you speak of. He doesn't really look like one either so...


And since everybody got super butthurt, I played along and declared him to be my bro, as opposed to a bro.And declared that he was probably an ally politically even though he believes in capitalism. That's more than just saying he's a "bro"(most of my "bros" I would not consider political allies).




Like people who don't understand the revolutionary implications of somebody being able to print things into being.I do understand that it can have revolutionary implications, it's just that now in our current society most of the people who will utilize such technology will be businesses because these things aren't cheap. 3D printing for the capitalist class means even less workers they have to pay(and as you said, you can even print a 3D printer with a 3D printer). 3D printing means lower wages.


A 3d printer suitable to make an AR15 costs (right now) about $1000, and the plastic material to make the lower receiver is about $15 for enough to make one.Most sites I look at say that you're going to spend a couple thousand to even 3,000 on a 3D printer that will reliably print out the lower reciever of an AR. RT has a story on their website about Australian cops who tried out the Liberator from a 3D printer that cost about $1,630 and the first one exploded on them. So how durable/reliable is this stuff anyways again? And even at 1,000, you think I have that kind of money?


Even that is not particularly expensive, especially when we consider that 3d printers can be printed from other 3d printers, so one could potentially make a 3d printer for not much more than $100.That kind of presupposes that you have a 3D printer.


If you can't see the way that this removes power from empire then you're being purposefully dense.I just don't take it as very practical for the working class.


The interesting thing is all of you are being so disingenuous, if the guy was using 3d printers to make water purifiers would the argument be so drawn out?I think I'd have the same objection of calling someone a political ally because they did so and told Glenn Beck to read Foucalt.


You are pretending we're fascinated by this because its guns, but thats only your assertion, that is not contained in the statements of any of us who have engaged with your tiresome and phony "arguments".What are you talking about? I've gone from thinking this thread was at first talking about how you think this ancap is a political ally because he told Beck to read a fucking book, to thinking this was about the potential use of 3D printed guns, and now it's to the implications of 3D printing itself? How the fuck was anybody supposed to gather that info from "Bro tells Glenn Beck to read Foucalt"? I really think you're just full of bullshit, if this is supposed to be some serious thread about the revolutionary implications of 3D printers, why is it in non-political. You know what would have really saved your time? When people started calling you out for calling an ancap a bro you could have just been like "It's not meant to be serious." Unless you don't feel that way and you were serious...


And I think there are some interesting points raised by the issue of making weapons with this technology, in that it has the potential to put a gun in the hand of anybody who wants one.Again, anyone being anyone who can afford a 3D printer and the material. Which effectively means a majority of Americans. A majority of the world.
And despite what you idiots have said, its not "easy" to get a gun on the black market. Lol at any of you pasty nerds walking into the ghetto and up to the first hard looking dude you see and asking to buy a gun.Hahaha, you know me now? I live in the ghetto part of town, I don't need to walk anywhere to go there. Although working night shifts have made me whiter than usual, it's pretty easy to get a gun for me. I mean I used to be involved with gangs, you don't think I know people who I could get a gun from? But I don't need that connect, every place I've worked there's been at least two gun crazy coworkers. When I worked at McDonalds I didn't even have to ask, bros asked me all the time if I wanted to buy guns off of them. You can walk into a gunshow and buy guns, you don't even need to know anybody then.


Pacification and "social peace" are an important part of empire's dominance, this potentially disrupts that goal, when empire tries to attain it (or reinforce it, really) through limiting the ownership of firearms.What is empire?


I will say again, (and probably for the last time, because most of you will not engage in this discussion in a honest way) the reason this has radical implications is because it takes power away from empire, and disperses it amongst the broad masses of people, this is not explicitly communist (obviously), but it weakens empire and puts cracks in the spectacle, and those cracks are where we are supposed to be operating, as communist militants;

and since Semendyaev needs this restated, it is not about printing guns and arming ourselves (like I already said, communism does not simply hinge on arms in the hands of anyone), its about the ability to do so. (and so many other things, that are currently tightly controlled by empire, and are expensive)Oh geez, more symbolic resistance. I pray that next you'll tell me about how that guy breaking a window at Starbucks is breaking the illusion of the authority of the state or whatever it is you guys like to say. I can burn CD's too, I'm such a badass. Sucks I still have to go into work tonight though. Maybe I'll save up enough money over the next couple years so I can buy a 3D printer and then really stick it to the man! I'll make a bunch of shit just to show them I have the ability! Thinking about that will make working for these bastards go by faster hopefully.

[The Feral Underclass]

My bros are my friends but I'm aware of this "bro" culture you speak of. He doesn't really look like one either so...

And declared that he was probably an ally politically even though he believes in capitalism. That's more than just saying he's a "bro"(most of my "bros" I would not consider political allies).



I do understand that it can have revolutionary implications, it's just that now in our current society most of the people who will utilize such technology will be businesses because these things aren't cheap. 3D printing for the capitalist class means even less workers they have to pay(and as you said, you can even print a 3D printer with a 3D printer). 3D printing means lower wages.

Most sites I look at say that you're going to spend a couple thousand to even 3,000 on a 3D printer that will reliably print out the lower reciever of an AR. RT has a story on their website about Australian cops who tried out the Liberator from a 3D printer that cost about $1,630 and the first one exploded on them. So how durable/reliable is this stuff anyways again? And even at 1,000, you think I have that kind of money?

That kind of presupposes that you have a 3D printer.

I just don't take it as very practical for the working class.

I think I'd have the same objection of calling someone a political ally because they did so and told Glenn Beck to read Foucalt.

What are you talking about? I've gone from thinking this thread was at first talking about how you think this ancap is a political ally because he told Beck to read a fucking book, to thinking this was about the potential use of 3D printed guns, and now it's to the implications of 3D printing itself? How the fuck was anybody supposed to gather that info from "Bro tells Glenn Beck to read Foucalt"? I really think you're just full of bullshit, if this is supposed to be some serious thread about the revolutionary implications of 3D printers, why is it in non-political. You know what would have really saved your time? When people started calling you out for calling an ancap a bro you could have just been like "It's not meant to be serious." Unless you don't feel that way and you were serious...

Again, anyone being anyone who can afford a 3D printer and the material. Which effectively means a majority of Americans. A majority of the world. Hahaha, you know me now? I live in the ghetto part of town, I don't need to walk anywhere to go there. Although working night shifts have made me whiter than usual, it's pretty easy to get a gun for me. I mean I used to be involved with gangs, you don't think I know people who I could get a gun from? But I don't need that connect, every place I've worked there's been at least two gun crazy coworkers. When I worked at McDonalds I didn't even have to ask, bros asked me all the time if I wanted to buy guns off of them. You can walk into a gunshow and buy guns, you don't even need to know anybody then.

What is empire?

Oh geez, more symbolic resistance. I pray that next you'll tell me about how that guy breaking a window at Starbucks is breaking the illusion of the authority of the state or whatever it is you guys like to say. I can burn CD's too, I'm such a badass. Sucks I still have to go into work tonight though. Maybe I'll save up enough money over the next couple years so I can buy a 3D printer and then really stick it to the man! I'll make a bunch of shit just to show them I have the ability! Thinking about that will make working for these bastards go by faster hopefully.

Why are you so angry?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Why are you so angry?

Why do you post inflammatory one-liners that add nothing of substance to the discussion?

[The Feral Underclass]

Why do you post inflammatory one-liners that add nothing of substance to the discussion?

I didn't realise asking my question would be inflammatory and I wasn't trying to add substance, I was asking a question...

I genuinely don't understand why Revolutionary Tool is so angry. I mean, that's how he's coming across anyway. There's just no need for this animosity. It's okay to disagree with each other without acting as if they've insulted your mother.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Democratise doesn't mean revolutionary implication. I don't even know what that's supposed to mean.you're right, my bad, misreading on my part. I don't see it as "democratizing" when most people aren't able to utilize the technology. Revolutionary implications like the revolutionary implications of the steam engine, airplanes, the lightbulb, etc. I was specifically meaning the supposed revolutionary implications of 3D printed guns to the struggle of the working class.


Well if they were being used by groups to illegally mass produce weapons for revolutionaries, I can't imagine they would have done a whip around for it.A whip around for it? I'm sorry, I don't know what that means. But I don't really know if it can mass produce guns. The RT article I mentioned in my reply to The Douche said it took 27 hours for it to make the gun they made. So I don't know how fast they are or how long you could do it before the machine itself breaks.


Presumably there are other ways for revolutionaries to acquire things? Not that I was even talking about revolutionaries or cost. I was merely talking about the fact that you wouldn't need a manufacturer or the complex process, equipment and parts to produce a gun. You can also produce them covertly quite easily.You still have to buy parts for the gun. Like if you did make an AR you still have to buy the barrel and stuff, you're just printing the lower reciever.


As for the guy in the video, I have no idea if he is an ally, he didn't really discuss his politics with much depth. Unless you can see into the future. Is that something you can do?You skipped over the first couple pages didn't you?



I have no idea, this is the first time I've even heard about this.I imagine they're less durable(I mean come on metal vs. plastic) but by how much? That's what I'm interested in.

[The Douche]

Yeah well ART also asked me to post a description of myself and my location around Oscar Grant plaza after occupy oakland's may day events, so I generally don't take anything he posts to seriously...

[A Revolutionary Tool]

I didn't realise asking my question would be inflammatory and I wasn't trying to add substance, I was asking a question...

I genuinely don't understand why Revolutionary Tool is so angry. I mean, that's how he's coming across anyway. There's just no need for this animosity. It's okay to disagree with each other without acting as if they've insulted your mother.

If you're talking about the cussing, that's just standard. It's a bad habit I have. But I really don't like when people stereotype me like The Douche did. Like apparently I'm a pasty nerd. What are we in the third grade? He called someone a dweeb for Christs sake, he's like a schoolyard bully.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Yeah well ART also asked me to post a description of myself and my location around Oscar Grant plaza after occupy oakland's may day events, so I generally don't take anything he posts to seriously...

What are you saying, I'm a snitch? Sorry, I ran into a tatted anarchist skinhead and had a weird talk with him. When you said you were in the same location as me and fit the description my immediate thought was to ask if that was you by describing what clothes he wore.

I don't see how that means you wouldn't take anything I say seriously though, but that's a nice dodge there.

[The Douche]

he's like a schoolyard bully.

Or I just don't wanna play with you.

[The Douche]

What are you saying, I'm a snitch? Sorry, I ran into a tatted anarchist skinhead and had a weird talk with him. When you said you were in the same location as me and fit the description my immediate thought was to ask if that was you by describing what clothes he wore.

I don't see how that means you wouldn't take anything I say seriously though, but that's a nice dodge there.

No, I don't think you're a snitch. (not intentionally) But I think you're naive, and I think you've got a lot to learn, but I'm not inclined to help you along because thats not really who I am and because you already enter conversations with a position, you don't come to understand, you come to argue. And I don't mind an argument, but I prefer to have them with people who can at least understand the concepts being argued about.


Which element do you not see? How 3d printing stands to democratise production, or, how the democratisation of production opens up potentialities for us as communist militants? (especially when that democratisation occurs in the context of a direct confrontation with the state)

[khad]

How many of the detractors in this thread have even read Foucault?
Ex-foucauldian.

Like someone else said in this thread, he willingly gave people AIDS. A fitting analogy for his entire ideology, as he abandoned the left and Marxism for religious nationalism.

[The Douche]

Ex-foucauldian.

Like someone else said in this thread, he willingly gave people AIDS. A fitting analogy for his entire ideology, as he abandoned the left and Marxism for religious nationalism.

Foucault:


'I would like my books to be a kind of tool-box which others can rummage through to find a tool which they can use however they wish in their own area... I would like the little volume that I want to write on disciplinary systems to be useful to an educator, a warden, a magistrate, a conscientious objector. I don't write for an audience, I write for users, not readers.'

Why do you think Foucault's work no longer has relevance? (maybe we should discuss that in philosophy)

[A Revolutionary Tool]

No, I don't think you're a snitch. (not intentionally) But I think you're naive, and I think you've got a lot to learn, but I'm not inclined to help you along because thats not really who I am and because you already enter conversations with a position, you don't come to understand, you come to argue. And I don't mind an argument, but I prefer to have them with people who can at least understand the concepts being argued about.I'm the naive one? You just said that it's not about actually arming ourselves, that the ability itself to 3D print guns weakens "empire", puts a crack in the spectacle. That's the most idealist crap I've seen all day. Has downloading songs for free destroyed the music industry(something which the masses of people do do)? Has it weakened "empire".



Which element do you not see? How 3d printing stands to democratise production, or, how the democratisation of production opens up potentialities for us as communist militants? (especially when that democratisation occurs in the context of a direct confrontation with the state)
Neither of which are actually practical, something you haven't taken the time to address. You just seem to think most people have a couple thousand lying around just waiting to get spent though. It's cool technology, but again how does it democratize production when most people likely to buy it are capitalists for their businesses, not your average working class person?

[The Feral Underclass]

Ex-foucauldian.

Like someone else said in this thread, he willingly gave people AIDS. A fitting analogy for his entire ideology, as he abandoned the left and Marxism for religious nationalism.

That's simply just not true and it's absurd you would even say it. You're not an Ex-Foucauldian! No one who has seriously studied Foucault, even those who later abandon his analysis, would ever say something like this. Unless of course you are purposefully trying to be a dick.

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

Besides the fact that I generally abhor violence, I do have a few other points to make about this.

Firstly, as far as I know, these weapons aren't terribly effective - limited range and durability and so on. You have to wonder if the people armed with them would present any kind of effective opposition to even armed police, let alone the army.

Secondly - violence scares people. Even people who actually own guns. Bear in mind that the people who will actually be interested in overthrowing the state with toy guns are a small minority - most people do not usually wish for violence (even if they glorify it (at some long distance)) Again, this brings up the issue that small numbers of people with these weapons would find their struggle short, and futile. Besides which, I personally feel that advocating violence tends to alienate most people - unless said violence is far away, of course.

Thirdly - and I know this is a cliche - the enemy of my enemy is not my friend. Time and time again there are examples of this through history - the fuck-ups in the middle east alone are adequate evidence, and don't forget that plenty supposedly communist movements were also funded by the major powers - the Viet Minh were funded not only by the USSR and China, but by the United States of America! Just because someone initially seems to share similar aims (i.e driving out the japanese and opposing more overt colonial rule in the case of Vietnam or opposing the USSR in Afghanistan) does not mean that it is really benificial to ally with them. It's a case of win-the-battle-lose-the-war, I suppose. Not all allies are good allies.

[MarxArchist]

Edit: I see that he has called himself a "market-anarchist" in the past, seems like one of the "anarchist without adjectives" types, or a pomo critical theory nerd. I would probably consider him an ally, but I can see why most revleft posters wouldn't, which is neither here nor there, because most revleft posters would not be my comrades anyway.


Ah geez, c'mon. Do I really have to explain why "anarcho" capitalists aren't our bedfellows and can never be? My guess is you have a fetish for guns and that love of guns is perhaps blinding you on the issue.

[MarxArchist]

No, there was a time when revleft was mostly populated by individuals actually active in different parts of the radical milieu, in real life. So the discussions being had were about the way various ideas actually related to what was going on, and what we (as militants or activists, depending on your interpretation of things) were experiencing, what was working or failing in our projects.

New theories were discussed regularly and people wanted to find out how they could use those new theories to refine their political work, or were motivated to show the uselessness of those theories, and to make their arguments in an intelligent and passionate way, something you can't fake if communism is just an RPG.

Now revleft is populated by for whom radical politics is a hobby that they engage with on the internet, revleft is political activity for many people who post here now. And that is pathetic. And that is why people are far more interested in talking about some historical event than anything else, thats why the board is filled with sectarian squabbles, because that is what communism is to most people around here.



I'm glad you put leftists in quotes, for future reference, I abhor the term.

Your view is printing guns is "democratization of production" and as communists we should support this because it brings us one step closer to having control over our own means of production (communism in effect) or 3-d printing can somehow be a tool to end or help end capitalism. This "anarcho" capitalist also supports 3-d printing so in essence we should consider him an ally in our goal of ending capitalism.


So in 2004 this site considered Ludwig Von Mises and his followers, even the ones who call themselves "Mutualists", comrades? I'll admit over the years in the real world I've ran into people on the socialist left who thought somehow these people could organize with us and we could form a "united front" against capitalism as is but, well, those people have been, to say the least, completely ignorant as to the views of these Ludwig von Mutualists. Proudhon himself would probably shoot one of them in the head if they tried to impliment their ideas ina theoretical purely "Proudhonian" mutualist society.

Every single theory they have on capitalism is insane and practice is based on theory. If we begin considering these people our "comrades" it would accomplish nothing but the even further degeneration of our materialist theory and thus even further decay of our practice within society. We may as well just embrace idealism. Hell, if someone likes the color blue, as blue is my favorite color, I'll be willing to ignore their political ideology and will consider them a comrade! Maybe we should even consider National Socialists our comrades as they too want to end capitalism as it is.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

I'm the naive one? You just said that it's not about actually arming ourselves, that the ability itself to 3D print guns weakens "empire", puts a crack in the spectacle. That's the most idealist crap I've seen all day. Has downloading songs for free destroyed the music industry(something which the masses of people do do)? Has it weakened "empire".



Neither of which are actually practical, something you haven't taken the time to address. You just seem to think most people have a couple thousand lying around just waiting to get spent though. It's cool technology, but again how does it democratize production when most people likely to buy it are capitalists for their businesses, not your average working class person?


Consumer level 3d printers are still relatively new. Remember how expensive flat screen TVs were when they first came out? They're already working on inexpensive models http://gigaom.com/2013/07/01/buccaneer-3d-printer-closes-kickstarter-campaign-with-hefty-1-4m-in-funding/. 3d printing, if it isn't destroyed by state and capital, could absolutely undermine fundamental aspects of the economy, not even taking into consideration the actual manufacture of weapons.

[ComradeOm]

3d printing, if it isn't destroyed by state and capital, could absolutely undermine fundamental aspects of the economy, not even taking into consideration the actual manufacture of weapons.No it couldn't. The idea that you can replace the entire set of manufacturing technologies that underpin modern mass manufacturing with a single operation is, well, silly

[A Revolutionary Tool]

No it couldn't. The idea that you can replace the entire set of manufacturing technologies that underpin modern mass manufacturing with a single operation is, well, silly

Especially considering the size of the parts these printers make, they're not very big...Oh if only the masses of workers had 3-D printers to make small parts out of plastic, it would really undermine the capitalist system :rolleyes:

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Oh man I sure hope they figure out a way to make bigger stuff someday:rolleyes:. it's a new technology genius.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

Oh man I sure hope they figure out a way to make bigger stuff someday:rolleyes:. it's a new technology genius.

And we have the same type of machines that do this type of work on metal on large scales too. Low and behold they are not massively distributed out to the working class but instead utilized by the capitalist class that have the means to actually acquire such technology. That's a point I've been trying to make for a while now. But let's pretend that your average Joes all across the nation can make these little plastic parts with these machines and then they have the skills to build what they're making with it and it's totally undermining the manufacturing sector of the economy. Is the market just something that's going to be stagnant, it's just going to sit there and not change? Capitalism is a dynamic system. Can a 3D printer print plastic or any raw materials?

[khad]

And we have the same type of machines that do this type of work on metal on large scales too. Low and behold they are not massively distributed out to the working class but instead utilized by the capitalist class that have the means to actually acquire such technology. That's a point I've been trying to make for a while now. But let's pretend that your average Joes all across the nation can make these little plastic parts with these machines and then they have the skills to build what they're making with it and it's totally undermining the manufacturing sector of the economy. Is the market just something that's going to be stagnant, it's just going to sit there and not change? Capitalism is a dynamic system. Can a 3D printer print plastic or any raw materials?
You can actually 3D print metals with industrial grade fabricators, but the temperatures required would mean that Joe Schmo Anarchist will probably end up burning down his house/squat/tent/whatever before producing anything of value.

[A Revolutionary Tool]

You can actually 3D print metals with industrial grade fabricators, but the temperatures required would mean that Joe Schmo Anarchist will probably end up burning down his house/squat/tent/whatever before producing anything of value.

It's funny because my coworker was just talking about machines he used to work on like that, he said you could make a gun out of it if you wanted. Immediately I thought of this thread and wondered why the technology hasn't fallen into everybody's hands, especially considering its been around for years.