North America/Europe Socialist and or Revolutionary Groups

[Christopherxx]

Hi there guys,

So my first post was on the irish situation because that is the one I know.

But I wonder are there any other active socialist and or revolutionary groups in north america and or caucasian europe that are actually active and have an underground presence going on?

Seems crazy that no one actually does anything and the only groups are us irish lol.

[Blake's Baby]

Do you mean guerrilla groups?


...
Seems crazy that no one actually does anything and the only groups are us irish lol.

Seems crazy that anyone in Ireland believes in 'national liberation', but there you go.

[Sasha]

There are mostly national-liberation groups (eta being probably the biggest), Greece has a lot of urban-insurgency groups, France, Germany and Italy have regular leftwing originated attacks too.

[Lenin1986]

Do you mean guerrilla groups?



Seems crazy that anyone in Ireland believes in 'national liberation', but there you go.

Why is it crazy?

[Vercingetorix]

The American Left is mostly fragmented and divided, and cannot agree on a course of action. I've gone to some communist meetings here in new york, but they were a creepy group that wanted to talk about how awesome North Korea was.

North Korea is a feudal monarchy dressed up in hammers and sickles, and these people are marching around waving North Korean flags.

In my area, my fellow leftists have no sense of tactics and tend to spend their time scaring people rather than convincing them.

[Christopherxx]

No kidding, reading from these comments I can see why we're not moving out of capitalism remotely soon.

Or even working together for a better worker situation.......

[blake 3:17]

If you have ideas on the forums, I'd appreciate hearing them. I'm a new moderator -- which is totally volunteer and I should be sleeping right now instead of writing this -- which isn't to guilt, just being honest -- and the Struggles section could be livelier.

Having said that, I often don't post some of I'm involved with if I don't think anyone much here much can act on it. Where I work, I'm not legally part of the union, but have been helping out on some stuff. But it's pretty boring -- get the newsletter here, trying to open up some language in the collective agreement, make sure X has Y's phone number. That's the day to day of doing socialism.

And when shit gets crazy, I've been putting stuff on twitter or FB -- mostly to keep the cops in line. Cameras scare them these days. 24 hours later it's mostly not much interest. And folks busy doing stuff aren't mostly sitting around posting. I'm waaay more on here when I'm less politically active.

Contradictions.

[Christopherxx]

Hey Blake, I'll keep you posted :)

I have some friends that are in direct action fronts. I'll let them know that this could be a good place to help inform, educate, and recruit?

[Blake's Baby]

Why is it crazy?

Because a local bourgeoisie is no better than the bourgeoisie of the state next door. It's still, you know, a bourgeoisie. And the workers have no country, after all.

[Christopherxx]

Blakes Baby, though I agree with you I think your also limiting the situation quite drastically.

[Christopherxx]

And there is a slight difference.

Though I again think your characterization of the local groups is not really all that complete.

In a culture of action where a local 'bourgeoisie' may topple an imperialist power there is a climate of readiness.

This usually can lead to other groups taking the stage to highlight platforms that where possibly marginilazed under 'greater' aims.

History knows that.

Though I do understand the point your making and I agree with it in as far it is accurate and applicable.

[Blake's Baby]

Not sure how you can both agree that national liberation is no step forward for the working class, and think that national liberation is a step forward for the working class.

The working class in the Irish Republic is no freer now than it was in 1913. Nor is the working class in the 6 counties, or in Britain. The American and German bourgeoisies, however, have a freer hand in the Irish Republic than they did under British rule. That, I don't see as any advantage to the working class.

So, precisely what is the benefit please?

[Christopherxx]

Not sure how you can both agree that national liberation is no step forward for the working class, and think that national liberation is a step forward for the working class.

I wouldn't go that far.

There is grey ground. You can have better worker/social conditions without it becoming a communist or anarchist situation or any other ideal according to a philosophic construct.

Lastly I'm sure you don't view life itself as simple as those sentences you summed up the situation with?

Again I understand your point and I agree with it in it's essence, but realism is important as an adult.

I think this is a problem with Revleft. People here seem to treat issues very narrowly and that may be a reason why there isn't much discussion and or interesting takes on new issues arriving on the fore-front or on any subject for that matter.

[Blake's Baby]

Don't really know how you're defining 'new' here. Marx wrote about Irish liberation in the 18860s. To quote James Connelly from 1897, "If you remove the English army to-morrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain...". Rosa Luxemburg summed up my position on national liberation a century ago.

So, yeah, I don't think 'new' really applies.

[Christopherxx]

I agree with you in the sense of what Connolly* said. I know the quote well (IRSP friends ;))

I'll leave it at that.

[Lenin1986]

Don't really know how you're defining 'new' here. Marx wrote about Irish liberation in the 18860s. To quote James Connelly from 1897, "If you remove the English army to-morrow and hoist the green flag over Dublin Castle, unless you set about the organisation of the Socialist Republic your efforts would be in vain...". Rosa Luxemburg summed up my position on national liberation a century ago.

So, yeah, I don't think 'new' really applies.

Yeah James Connolly was right in what he said. Heres another quote by Connolly "The cause of labour is the cause of Ireland, the cause of Ireland is the cause of labour". I beleave he is right in this to.
The only way there can be a 32 County Socialist Republic is by removing the the british imperialist occupation. The only way to this, is by waging a national liberation struggle. When the British occupation has been removed then socialist construction can beggin.

[Christopherxx]

Well put.

Blake's Baby is making an important point - That what is needed is the historical transformation long awaited for.

However though this may not be the "eschatological" event period there are things unfolding that simply can not be summed up with statements that make black and white of the situation. Or even worse - Trying to fit it into a certain bubble of paradigm.

We need BBs but they need us too and that is something here at Revleft that could really grow and reinvigorate the community ;)1

[Christopherxx]

Additionally when you are to fast to write off a movement or to label it as "This or that" you may miss what the movement may or can/could be, what you could bring to the table, what you can help make the movement by your participation.

Help direct the movement with intelligence, communication, etc.

Investment helps not harms the left, something we need more of.

[Lenin1986]

Because a local bourgeoisie is no better than the bourgeoisie of the state next door. It's still, you know, a bourgeoisie. And the workers have no country, after all.

No one is saying leave the Irish bourgeoisie in power once national liberation has been achieved. The end goal is a workers republic. most supporters of Irish national liberation are working class and just about all members of republican groups are working class. So it is in their intrest to have a workers republic.

The people of Europe and the US should support the Irish national liberation struggle its in their intrest. If the struggle becomes successful in Ireland I beleave revolution would spread to many countries throughout Europe.

[Christopherxx]

Exactly.

I think for those outside the loop many are not aware of why the south is the way it is or what the rebel groups are fighting for.

Let alone how this issue could drastically alter the rest of the consciousness of the people around europe/north america with so many identifying themselves as irish or as having friends/family that are irish.

Our struggle could be your struggle, unity.

I do want to make clear though. The rebel groups as they stand today need to reformat. Solidarty, Love, Respect, and above all an ethos needs to be at the heart of the movement.

Major changes have to happen, but if people across all lines pooled together. Got involved, it would. And it could be a turning point for many things in our present climate. Here at home and abroad.

[Lenin1986]

I do want to make clear though. The rebel groups as they stand today need to reformat. Solidarty, Love, Respect, and above all an ethos needs to be at the heart of the movement.

Major changes have to happen, but if people across all lines pooled together. Got involved, it would. And it could be a turning point for many things in our present climate. Here at home and abroad.

I think your a 100% correct. There needs to be revolution within republicanism cohesion and solidarty need to be built and as you said there needs to be an ethos at the heart of the movement. All old differences need to be forgotten. Its time to move the struggle forward.

[Lenin1986]

There also needs to be cohesion and solidarty built between Irish Republicanism and with other revolutionary groups throughout the world.

[Blake's Baby]

I was born in England of Irish family. My father is, and my grandfather was, a republican socialist.

A 'socialist republic of Ireland' is an impossibility. The idea that re-uniting Ireland would somehow spark a Europe-wide revolution, or a North American revolution, is ludicrous. There are situations in Europe that are much closer to revolution than Ireland - Greece, Turkey, Spain... even the London riots 2 years ago or the current events in Stokholm are closer to triggering a 'Europe-wide revolution' than the possible re-unification of Ireland.

[Lenin1986]

I was born in England of Irish family. My father is, and my grandfather was, a republican socialist.

A 'socialist republic of Ireland' is an impossibility. The idea that re-uniting Ireland would somehow spark a Europe-wide revolution, or a North American revolution, is ludicrous. There are situations in Europe that are much closer to revolution than Ireland - Greece, Turkey, Spain... even the London riots 2 years ago or the current events in Stokholm are closer to triggering a 'Europe-wide revolution' than the possible re-unification of Ireland.

Im not saying a re-united ireland will spark revolution in other countries im saying a socialist revolution in ireland would. do you not agree?

[Lenin1986]

[QUOTE=Blake's Baby;2624938]
A 'socialist republic of Ireland' is an impossibility.QUOTE]

so your saying socialism can never be created in Ireland? i think this is ludacris

[Christopherxx]

Your point has been recognized and I think your missing our point.

Either way, maybe it's best we call it on this one. Nothing more is being said and I think the conversation has become stagnant.

In truest feelings best of luck.

L your right there needs to be cooperation with other groups to help broaden a "climate" of revolution rather than just focusing on the Isle. Other causes can only help our own by helping inform and gaining international public support. The same goes with us providing material and operational assistance from the lessons we have learned.

Additionally we have to bring in the Ulster heritage that the unionists, separatists, and other groups encompass.

This I think is the biggest struggle as it takes a envisioning of what being "Irish" means and stands for. Not simply a "gaelic domination" as it often mistaken as the goal.

It has been stated numerous times but a national recognition has to go hand in hand with a social identity and that social identity should be counter to the individualism seen in current Europe and North America.

It will be left up to the people to determine how best to situate themselves and what goals are set for the future :).

P.s. This would be a good discussion for our IRA Unity post rather than how this post started. Which was in hopes to learn about other struggles in North America and Europe haha.

:) Thanks for everyone that posted your time was appreciated and it was great hearing what various voices had to say.

[Blake's Baby]

Im not saying a re-united ireland will spark revolution in other countries im saying a socialist revolution in ireland would. do you not agree?

Yes, a socialist revolution could be a spark to ignite the rest of Europe and indeed North America. So could a socialist revolution in Iceland, Norway, Finland, Sweden, the UK (any part, or all bits simultaneously), Denmark, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Russia, Byelorus, Ukraine, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Moldova, Romania, Bulgaria, Turkey, Greece, Cyprus, Macedonia, Albania, Serbia, Croatia, Bosnia, Slovenia, Slovakia, Hungary, Czech Republic, Germany, Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium, France, Spain, Portugal, Andorra, Monaco, Leichtenstein, Malta or Italy.

Or for that matter Brazil, Argentina, Peru... etc.

So, what's so special about Ireland in this scenario?




A 'socialist republic of Ireland' is an impossibility.

so your saying socialism can never be created in Ireland? i think this is ludacris

So you're saying you eat babies? I think that's horrendous.

Back in the world of people who don't make up shit on the internet, please explain the logical leap you make from my statement that a 'socialist republic of Ireland' is impossible to your statement that I think 'socialism can never be created in Ireland'. Go on, connect them I, I dare you.

I fixed your mangled quotes by the way, but not your spelling.

[Christopherxx]

I think this conversation speaks strongly to the alienation some feel from their community.

People should not speak to each other like this. It's not productive and it creates a cycle of ignorance, distrust, and apathy/isolation of spirit.

Mod's I would appreciate this and all my other posts be removed from Revleft. I came here to enjoy discussion with others even if divergent and to reason together to greater things. Not argue over fictional black and white scenarios with about as much depth as a drained pond.

On a brighter note BB read your statement: my statement that a 'socialist republic of Ireland' is impossible to your statement that I think 'socialism can never be created in Ireland'.

Lol no personal jab mate but you gotta see the word-play ;)1

[Christopherxx]

Additionally BB if you ever felt attacked in my posts I apologize. It was not intended.

[Christopherxx]

Good luck Revleft

[Leftsolidarity]

Seems crazy that anyone in Ireland believes in 'national liberation', but there you go.

yeah, crazy to think that people are pissed that their country is still occupied afters 100's of years :rolleyes:

[Leftsolidarity]

Mod's I would appreciate this and all my other posts be removed from Revleft.

We don't do that. If you want them deleted you have to go through them and delete them yourself. Idk why you would want to, though.

[Blake's Baby]

Additionally BB if you ever felt attacked in my posts I apologize. It was not intended.

Not at all. I don't think you attacked me, and I don't think you need to apologise for it because it didn't happen.

If I came across as annoyed, there two possible reasons.

Firstly, it's immensely arrogant to wander into a new forum, and than say that no-one is doing anything worthwhile, except you, which is what you did. It's not conclusive but from your spelling of 'apologize' I'd reckon you're an American. If that's the case, while you're banging on about how only 'us Irish' are doing anything, you're not even in the country where it's happening. Even if you are in Ireland, it's still arrogant. You could apologise for that.

Secondly, people who make rubbish up. Lenin1986, for instance, who claimed that for some reason I thought it would be impossible to create a socialist society in Ireland. Utter nonsense, and not my position at all. But perhaps at some point Lenin1986 will explain why it was necessary to invent some nonsense and then ascribe it to me, instead of engaging with what I said.

Both of those are unedifying examples of internet shit. Sometimes I think that I've already wasted too much of my life on stuff like this, but then I think, no, keep plugging away, you never know when it'll be worthwhile. So I do.


...

On a brighter note BB read your statement: my statement that a 'socialist republic of Ireland' is impossible to your statement that I think 'socialism can never be created in Ireland'.

Lol no personal jab mate but you gotta see the word-play ;)1

No, I don't see any word play.

To think that there's any connection between me thinking that "a 'socialist republic of Ireland' is impossible" and what Lenin1985 claims I believe, that " 'socialism can never be created in Ireland'", would require that 'a socialist republic' and 'the creation of socialist society' are the same thing thing.

'A socialist republic' is an impossibility anywhere. It is an oxymoron. There can be no 'socialist republic of Ireland' because socialism in one country is impossible. Stalin was wrong in 1913 when he wrote the Bolsheviks' position paper on the national question, and Lenin and Trotsky were wrong to follow Stalin in 1917. Luxemburg, however, was right that in the era of imperialism and global war, the independent development of new nations was a nonsense. The Irish working class has no business fighting for a re-arrangement of the political furniture, its business is fighting for the destruction of capitalism. That doesn't come from strengthening the national bourgeoisie.

The creation of socialist society will be the task of the proletariat of the whole world, not Ireland alone. It will require the Irish proletariat to unite with the English, Welsh and Scottish proletariat, the Spanish, French, Portuguese, Algerian, Icalandic, American etc etc proletariat. That isn't going to happen as a result of a prolonged nationalist war. You don't to internationalism through nationalism, you don't get to socialism through nationalism.



yeah, crazy to think that people are pissed that their country is still occupied afters 100's of years :rolleyes:

So, I take it you're coming back to Europe and publically giving your stolen country back?

Or are you just going to wear a big hat with a sign that says 'I am a massive hypocrite' from now on?