Black 14-year-old Carrying a Puppy Tackled and Choked by Police [Archive]

RedSonRising

31st May 2013, 06:16

...for Giving Them a "Demeaning Look"

http://www.alternet.org/civil-liberties/black-14-year-old-carrying-puppy-tackled-and-choked-police-giving-them-dehumanizing

They even hurt the pup's paw. You couldn't write this shit.

http://www.alternet.org/files/styles/story_image/public/story_images/screen_shot_2013-05-30_at_12.12.54_pm.png

May 30, 2013 |
New cell phone footage shows Miami-Dade Police officers aggressively pinning an unarmed teen to the ground while choking him. His alleged crime: giving the officers “dehumanizing stares” and “clenching his fists.”

Fourteen-year-old Tremaine McMillan says he was feeding his puppy and playing on the beach with some friends when cops riding ATVs approached him and asked what he was doing. The "peacekeeping" officers say they saw McMillan roughhousing with another teenager, told him it was “unacceptable behavior,” and asked where his mother was. When McMillan walked away, they chased him on ATVs, jumped out, pinned him to the ground and arrested him. According to police reports, McMillan “attempted to pull his arm away, stating, 'Man, don't touch me like I did something.'" See footage of the incident, captured by McMillan's mother:

McMillan says he obeyed orders, and was leading the officers towards his mother when they jumped him. The teen adds that he was holding and feeding his puppy at the time, who got injured during the encounter.

“I don’t like it. I feel sad. He got in front of me on the ATC (sic) and he slammed my hand,” McMillan said. “Then he started choking me. Then my 6-week old Pit Bull mix named Polo got hurt and bruised his front paw when the police grabbed me and slammed me down. It makes me feel sad.”

Miami-Dade Police Detective Alvaro Zabaleta justified the use of force, saying McMillan was exhibiting threatening “body language,” which includes “clenched fists.” McMillan adamantly denies this charge because, well, he was holding a puppy.

“Of course we have to neutralize the threat in front of us,” said Zabaleta. “And when you have somebody that is being resistant, somebody that is pulling away from you, somebody that’s clenching their fist, somebody that’s flaring their arms, that’s the immediate threat.”

McMillan’s mother, Maurissa Holmes saw the incident and recorded it on her cell phone. She told WSVN-TV, "I ran over there and said, 'That's my son, that's my son. Can you get off of him? He can't breathe.'

Police charged McMillan with resisting arrest, a felony, and disorderly conduct. The teen’s attorney entered a plea of not guilty for his client and asked the court to reconsider the charges. The judge did not grant him his request.

McMillan’s 6-week old puppy, who suffers an injured front paw, did not make the police report.

“At this point we are not concerned with a puppy,” said Zabaleta.

Craig_J

31st May 2013, 06:53

Althusser

31st May 2013, 07:00

I hope people start EDIT helping the EDIT cops on a large scale.

RedSonRising

31st May 2013, 22:39

This makes me so angry! Don't even know if I want to watch the video, will only further my anger to this whole fiasco. I can't believe that they're getting away scot free with this. And the judge even refuses to reconsider the charges!

Blatant police racism - a problem not only in the USA but something which is happening globally.

EDIT: Oh and the term "Neturalise the threat" that's so ridiculous!

The judge refusing to reconsider the charges is a positive thing; there's a trial date set up. A slim chance for justice, but a chance nonetheless.

EDIT: Sorry, thought the kid's family was pressing charges. I hope the kid gets a good lawyer.

I hope people start killing cops on a large scale.

Eh, they'd just get more trigger happy.

Goblin

31st May 2013, 22:42

Content Edited.

Nevsky

31st May 2013, 23:11

Content Edited

#FF0000

31st May 2013, 23:16

look at all these people who are gonna be banned lol

The Garbage Disposal Unit

1st June 2013, 00:27

I hope one day that pitbull grows up and . . .

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 01:54

Imagine what the reaction would be if he was a white kid holding a puppy that got attacked by police. Oh wait, that doesn't happen!

RedSonRising

1st June 2013, 02:47

(Mods, can anything be done about the tread title? I've tried shortening the title with an edit to cut everything before the word "for" but it hasn't changed in the sub-forum.)

Skyhilist

1st June 2013, 03:30

I hope people start killing cops on a large scale.

Dude I strongly recommend that you delete or change that comment right now because I don't want to see you get banned

Vercingetorix

1st June 2013, 03:49

I won't link my blog, because it would personally identify me, but I posted this an hour ago and I now have 600 likes on facebook.

This child is from my hometown.

Thank you for having his back.

No freedom til we're equal.

No justice? No peace.

Quail

1st June 2013, 08:50

(Mods, can anything be done about the tread title? I've tried shortening the title with an edit to cut everything before the word "for" but it hasn't changed in the sub-forum.)
Done :)

This is yet another incident of blatant racism/racial profiling by police officers. The sad thing is, I feel angry whenever I read about this kind of stuff, but it doesn't surprise me because it seems to happen so fucking often.

Craig_J

1st June 2013, 10:41

People really taking the wannabe cow boy approach and saying they want to hunt cops?

Get over yourselfs, don't know if you're trying to come across as bad ass but it's not working.

It's blatant vile racism by the police, and I'm no fan of them by a long shot. Plenty of them are genuinley scum. But some, albeit a minority, are genuinley good people just doing a job which helps them live in a capitalist system.

Going around killing cops wouldn't do much good. You'd end up killing a lot of genuinley nice people along the way, along with all the bad.

Rather than wishing death on police, wish death on the system which gives them the power which is usually what ends up turning them into nasty pieces of work.

Saying you're gonna shoot some cops isn't cool. It doesn't make you seem like a hardcore revolutionary, it makes you seem like a hardcore idiot who's probably getting their IP adress monitored as we speak.

Nevsky

1st June 2013, 12:34

Flying Purple People Eater

1st June 2013, 14:54

'Neutralise the threat'?

A kid with a puppy in his arms leading you towards his mother is a 'threat'? How the fuck did these blatant racist shits get away with this!?

Can't anyone at the least file charges?

Vercingetorix

1st June 2013, 16:06

Can't anyone at the least file charges?

Yes.

The police.

Who are charging him with felony resisting arrest.

Also, don't shoot cops you morons, propagandize them. Convince them. Get them on OUR side. Have them disobey illegal orders.

If the police and soldiers support US then there's no one left to defend the state, and it will fall. That's the only way that revolutions become succesful.

The Garbage Disposal Unit

1st June 2013, 16:33

Going around killing cops wouldn't do much good. You'd end up killing a lot of genuinley nice people along the way, along with all the bad.

Stupidest shit. While I'm sure if we looked deep in to the hearts of the police, we'd find some of them pure and full of sweet intention . . . but let's stop and think for ten seconds about what the function of all police actually is.
I'm not talking (just) about relative outliers like this, where a cute puppy was involved, but the everyday functioning of the prison industrial complex. What you're saying basically falls into the same category as ". . . but some slave owners really loved their slaves! We need to attack the system of slavery!" (the parallel being particularly pertinent when we stop and consider the racialized character of the P.I.C.). While I'm sure that's very comforting to a large number of implicitly white supremacist liberals to hear, "Let's pull down the system without hurting any of the people who's day to day activities constitute that system!" it's, on even cursory analysis, an absurd proposition.

Per Levy

1st June 2013, 17:25

Also, don't shoot cops you morons, propagandize them. Convince them. Get them on OUR side. Have them disobey illegal orders.

nay, cops are shyte and i really dont want scum like this on our side.

If the police and soldiers support US then there's no one left to defend the state, and it will fall. That's the only way that revolutions become succesful.

so workers arnt importent, only armed workers who protect for the state? let the revolution come and we'll see where the police and the military stands, i have my doubts that they will be on our side.

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 17:37

Stupidest shit. While I'm sure if we looked deep in to the hearts of the police, we'd find some of them pure and full of sweet intention . . . but let's stop and think for ten seconds about what the function of all police actually is.
I'm not talking (just) about relative outliers like this, where a cute puppy was involved, but the everyday functioning of the prison industrial complex. What you're saying basically falls into the same category as ". . . but some slave owners really loved their slaves! We need to attack the system of slavery!" (the parallel being particularly pertinent when we stop and consider the racialized character of the P.I.C.). While I'm sure that's very comforting to a large number of implicitly white supremacist liberals to hear, "Let's pull down the system without hurting any of the people who's day to day activities constitute that system!" it's, on even cursory analysis, an absurd proposition.

Not, it's not "stupid shit". Most police are normal middle class people. The bad ones are a minority. They too are facing hard economic times. Killing them will only make you look like a lunatic, rightfully so. What will your justification be to family and friends of a now dead cop with children who had never done anything like the ones in this story? Do you tell people "good" when you hear a cop dies? Would you kill friends and family of mine who are cops? After that, how would you convince them your fight is 'just'?

Tenka

1st June 2013, 17:44

Yes.
Also, don't shoot cops you morons, propagandize them. Convince them. Get them on OUR side. Have them disobey illegal orders.

I'd rather propagandise against them, get more people to loathe cops. That's more productive than vainly appealing to the humanity of instruments of the bourgeois state. ACAB, etc.

If the police and soldiers support US then there's no one left to defend the state, and it will fall. That's the only way that revolutions become succesful.

I think there's a chance of winning support from soldiers, poor exploited meatbags thrown around to reënforce global capitalist order (except the careerists...), but police seem really hopeless in general. Their jobs aren't even dangerous, contrary to popular belief.

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

1st June 2013, 17:48

Not, it's not "stupid shit". Most police are normal middle class people. The bad ones are a minority. They too are facing hard economic times. Killing them will only make you look like a lunatic, rightfully so. What will your justification be to family and friends of a now dead cop with children who had never done anything like the ones in this story? Do you tell people "good" when you hear a cop dies? Would you kill friends and family of mine who are cops? After that, how would you convince them your fight is 'just'?

I know you're a liberal and all but... do you have to be such a piglover? Sorry, that's unfair to pigs (actual pigs are fucking cute after all) to be associated with these foul-smelling carcases.

It's utterly and totally bloody irrelevant what police are like in their sacred iron-railed ice-fortified hearts, they can be the sweetest people alive and it doesn't change the fact that they are at the forefront of reaction and the forceful fist of the bourgeois state.

The revolution is also not a popularity contest. And the families of those swine, let's just put it this way, they aren't exactly inclined to be of the progressive sort by any measure, after all "They risk their lives to maintain order and security! WAAH WAAAH, cops I love 'em! I'm proud of you, dad!" and then they go watch that terrible television show about that filthy cop-scum family and how perilous their work is while another dozen construction workers die in accidents.

Unrelated, but why are american cops always sporting Nazi-like hairdo's and are almost universally so fucking fat? Even that filthy cop-loving show COPS doesn't often show the bastards being anything but utterly despicable beasts.

billydan

1st June 2013, 17:53

This makes me so pissed he didn't even do anything wrong

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 17:59

I know you're a liberal and all but... do you have to be such a piglover? Sorry, that's unfair to pigs (actual pigs are fucking cute after all) to be associated with these foul-smelling carcases.

I have family and friends that are cops. Yes I do LOVE my family and friends. I didn't know love was a liberal value.

It's utterly and totally bloody irrelevant what police are like in their sacred iron-railed ice-fortified hearts, they can be the sweetest people alive and it doesn't change the fact that they are at the forefront of reaction and the forceful fist of the bourgeois state.

So are most workers today. Should we just kill everyone in a non-revolutionary time and place?

The revolution is also not a popularity contest. And the families of those swine, let's just put it this way, they aren't exactly inclined to be of the progressive sort by any measure, after all "They risk their lives to maintain order and security! WAAH WAAAH, cops I love 'em! I'm proud of you, dad!" and then they go watch that terrible television show about that filthy cop-scum family and how perilous their work is while another dozen construction workers die in accidents.

So as a communist I am not progressive? Oh wait, I'm just some stupid liberal because I think killing people willy-nilly is dumb.

Unrelated, but why are american cops always sporting Nazi-like hairdo's and are almost universally so fucking fat? Even that filthy cop-loving show COPS doesn't often show the bastards being anything but utterly despicable beasts.

Oh no, buzz cuts and fat people! Ahhh!

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

1st June 2013, 18:06

I have family and friends that are cops. Yes I do LOVE my family and friends. I didn't know love was a liberal value.

Fuck them. I for one wouldn't talk to some pig in my family if there was such.

So are most workers today. Should we just kill everyone in a non-revolutionary time and place?

Cops aren't workers.

Oh wait, I'm just some stupid liberal because I think killing people willy-nilly is dumb.

That's not all there is to your liberalism. Of course there's nothing inherently revolutionary about just killing people. Then serial killers would be revolutionaries (which amusingly enough was a point Ayn Rand liked to make from time to time...). But likewise the utter sanctity of life and cop-pacifism is ultimately counter-revolutionary.

Oh no, buzz cuts and fat people! Ahhh!

Oh, don't bring up fat people, there's nothing wrong with them. Cops aren't people. They're below dogs and dolphins and birds, vile beasts.

The Garbage Disposal Unit

1st June 2013, 18:11

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 18:31

Fuck them. I for one wouldn't talk to some pig in my family if there was such.

You do know that the majority of cops have not done anything like this story at all, right?

Cops aren't workers.

They are facing the same economic troubles just as much as most of us. Still, the rest of my post's point is still unanswered. No one disagrees that their actions support this system, but so do most other people in capitalist society. Should we not kill them all, then?

But likewise the utter sanctity of life and cop-pacifism is ultimately counter-revolutionary. How is my belief that killing cops willy-nilly in a non-revolutionary time and place equivalent to "the utter sanctity of life and cop-pacifism"?

Oh, don't bring up fat people, there's nothing wrong with them. Then why bring it up?

Cops aren't people. They're below dogs and dolphins and birds, vile beasts.Cops are not a homogeneous group.

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 18:41

My father is a retired cop.
I still think cops deserve it when they get offed.
Nothing personal against my Dad, but I'm pretty unwaveringly on the side of the criminalized against the white supremacist stormtroopers. That's the thing, it's not personal. It's not about some moral calculus where the good or bad character of individuals can be added up (though I will say, honestly, having known many police on a personal level because of my father, the vast majority are vile racist misogynist homophobe scumbags), but it's about what the police do as an institution. When your job is shit-kicking poor and racialized communities in to obedience, it doesn't mean shit whether or not you believe in it.
So, you know, instead of crying, "But cops' families!" - think about the fucking families (and entire nations!) whose violent dispossession, oppression, and outright genocide the wellbeing of cops' families is predicated on.

And in case you're wondering, yes, I have said this to him.

Cops are not a homogeneous group. The ones I know that are my friends are not living off of others, they do not hate minorities (there are gay minority cops fyi). They are poor, depressed, and care a lot about others. I agree the police system is oppressive, I have never said otherwise, but killing individual cops won't help. But so is the capitalist system everyone a part of it makes it run. Kill them all too? Back to cops. Whatever, some of them are bad people that deserve death, so kill them all! Have you told your dad you want to kill him? You know what, you should stop being a liberal and kill him RIGHT NOW. Be a true revolutionary!

Sperm-Doll Setsuna

1st June 2013, 18:49

You do know that the majority of cops have not done anything like this story at all, right?

This isn't about some reaction to individual excesses, though these too are a consequence of the societal niche which the institution that is the police fill.

They are facing the same economic troubles just as much as most of us. Still, the rest of my post's point is still unanswered. No one disagrees that their actions support this system, but so do most other people in capitalist society. Should we not kill them all, then?

Who said all cops would die, anyway? I mean, they would certainly be liquidated, if by that we take to mean cease to exist; but the only ones who would perish in the event of revolutionary violence would be those who actually participate in attempts to quell the revolution.

How is my belief that killing cops willy-nilly in a non-revolutionary time and place equivalent to "the utter sanctity of life and cop-pacifism"?

Apart from some angry reactions to this story and in threads like this about other similar vile abuse from pigs, has anyone made any effort to actually go and kill cops everywhere? Of course, that wouldn't be useful or worth anything. But I likewise would not feel sad for the dead cops.

Then why bring it up?

I just think it's odd why american police are so often fat and have those army-like haircuts. It looks nasty. Though there are a few fat coppers I've seen here too, I've never seen so many look so out of shape, I thought coppers had these intensive training courses, but they seem to just drive around and eat doughnuts across the pond.

Cops are not a homogeneous group.

Their class position is homogenous. If they don't abandon their positions, should they become enlightened in some way, any discomfort they face in line of their reactionary duty is not without some modicum of justification.

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 19:02

This isn't about some reaction to individual excesses, though these too are a consequence of the societal niche which the institution that is the police fill.

Advocating the killing of cops brings it to an individual level, which won't help at all.

Apart from some angry reactions to this story and in threads like this about other similar vile abuse from pigs, has anyone made any effort to actually go and kill cops everywhere? Of course, that wouldn't be useful or worth anything.

I know that, but my points are against those angry reactions. Very few would actually do it because it's stupid and ineffective, as I have said.

But I likewise would not feel sad for the dead cops.

It depends on what type of person they are, what they have done, etc. These cops? Sure. Some depressed and poor traffic cop? I'd feel bad.

I just think it's odd why american police are so often fat and have those army-like haircuts. It looks nasty. Though there are a few fat coppers I've seen here too, I've never seen so many look so out of shape, I thought coppers had these intensive training courses, but they seem to just drive around and eat doughnuts across the pond.

It's more of an American thing than a cop thing. America has a big obesity problem, plus short-hair cuts are best for physically-intense jobs (ironic I know).

Ele'ill

1st June 2013, 20:16

oh my god my fucking brain just exploded this thread is so bad yes all cops are cops they are the police and that is always 100% terrible period but I find all of this beyond the point, so here in this thread, where people allegedly interested in organizing and action seem to not be able to actually wrap their heads around a coherent plan, perhaps pleasantly spontaneous, that would offer an acceptable level of consequences for them to actually participate and escalate these situations. I would have to say that for most people 'killing cops' isn't a very realistic strategy at the moment.

Skyhilist

1st June 2013, 21:02

Can we just acknowledge that while just like soldiers who might go into (bourgeois/imperialist) war with good intentions, cops might also have good intentions, but are still simultaneously bastards for protecting the rule of the bourgeois?

I have no sympathy for cops who pull shit like this. As for the "more moral" ones; while just killing them would be stupid, trying to convince them to "get on our side" would be equally futile given that they're so entrenched with bourgeois laws and bourgeois moralism. Just ignore them, unless they get violent. When they get violent protecting bourgeois class rule (e.g. at protests), defend yourself. Otherwise it's unfortunately futile I think to try to get involved with cops when we're such a minority and would probably just alienate more people from class struggle by doing so.

Ele'ill

1st June 2013, 21:09

Otherwise it's unfortunately futile I think to try to get involved with cops when we're such a minority and would probably just alienate more people from class struggle by doing so.

Then people will forever be alienated from class struggle. What kind of movement building revolves around non-confrontation when the perpetual attack from the enemy is what created the desire for movement to begin with? It's institutionalized organization and movement and it's as much a part of empire as anything else.

The Garbage Disposal Unit

1st June 2013, 21:25

Note: Nowhere in this thread have I advocated killing individual cops as a viable strategy in and of itself. Inevitably part of a viable strategy, however, yes.

Re: Username
You're a white teenager who's friends with cops. Yeah, I bet you have a really important perspective on this. As for why I haven't offed my own Father, not only is it on the surface of the matter very obviously an inhumane suggestion, I don't think that it would have particular strategic relevance. It's a crucial distinction. In any case, it's not like I'd rat out somebody else for doing so.

Skyhilist

1st June 2013, 21:35

Then people will forever be alienated from class struggle. What kind of movement building revolves around non-confrontation when the perpetual attack from the enemy is what created the desire for movement to begin with? It's institutionalized organization and movement and it's as much a part of empire as anything else.

If there were actually enough socialists to carry out a revolution, then confrontation in that manner would make sense. When the cops outnumber the revolutionaries in the country 100 to 1, it makes absolutely no sense. Why? Because
a) they outnumber us and we can never beat them with the few groups of revolutionaries currently in existence, so it's futile
and
b) It'll be presented to the public as "hateful commie scum kill people" instead of "proletarian class wages class war", which is only going to turn the populace off even more from socialism.

Skyhilist

1st June 2013, 21:37

In any case, it's not like I'd rat out somebody else for doing so.

If someone killed your own father, you wouldn't pursue that and would just let it be?

That's pretty sad

Ele'ill

1st June 2013, 21:48

If there were actually enough socialists to carry out a revolution, then confrontation in that manner would make sense. When the cops outnumber the revolutionaries in the country 100 to 1, it makes absolutely no sense. Why? Because
a) they outnumber us and we can never beat them with the few groups of revolutionaries currently in existence, so it's futile
and

As I already stated I'm not talking about killing cops I said that was a bad idea, nor am I talking about an armed red dawn struggle. Theoretically, I'm not talking about engaging anything in particular because that isn't up to me it would be up to folks thinking about this concept and their current situation/location/etc but it doesn't take 'the proletariat' to attack capital and peripherals or to escalate within current situations where it may make sense to do so.

b) It'll be presented to the public as "hateful commie scum kill people" instead of "proletarian class wages class war", which is only going to turn the populace off even more from socialism.

which is how every subversive action, organization and movement is presented to the public this won't change

Quail

1st June 2013, 22:00

Whether cops are "nice people" or not is really irrelevant. What is relevant is that their role in society is inherently anti-working class and reactionary. It is their job to "maintain order" by keeping a lid on protests and strikes, by protecting private property and by upholding laws that for the most part do more harm than good. Even a "good apple" in the police force would be obliged, for example, to arrest a young man for dealing drugs and throw his life down the drain, or to contain anti-fascists and prevent them from doing any good, or to make sure striking workers don't do anything too radical. Regardless of the individual copper's beliefs and personality, they are nothing but an armed thug whose purpose is to protect the ruling class and the status quo.

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 22:11

Quail

1st June 2013, 22:15

But doesn't that also apply to everyone else because they are all actively protecting capitalist society? It certainly doesn't call for such views that killing them willy-nilly is not at least partially immoral.

No. The entire purpose of a cop's job is to protect private property and the interests of capitalism.

People working in other jobs - say as teachers, shop assistants, waiters, etc - aren't "actively" protecting capitalist society. They're cogs in the machine, but their entire purpose isn't to protect capitalist society.

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 22:18

[QUOTE]Re: Username
You're a white teenager who's friends with cops. Yeah, I bet you have a really important perspective on this.
Yes, as someone who has multiple of these evil bloody sucking vampires as a part of my friends and family, and that you people find no problem with the idea of them dead, yes, I have a very important perspective on this regardless of age or race. Why does it matter in this case whether I am a white 15-year-old or an old, non-white? Am I not allowed to defend my friends and family from people spewing how if they knew the person who murdered a close relative of mine, they would keep quiet?

Hermes

1st June 2013, 22:21

Yes, as someone who has multiple of these evil bloody sucking vampires as a part of my friends and family, and that you people find no problem with the idea of them dead, yes, I have a very important perspective on this regardless of age or race. Why does it matter in this case whether I am a white 15-year-old or an old, non-white? Am I not allowed to defend my friends and family from people spewing how if they knew the person who murdered of close relative of mine, they would keep quiet?Why do you keep bringing up the concept of family and unconditional love as if it was a real thing? Do you really believe that simply because they're family it absolves them from everything they do, and that you should always love them, regardless?

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 22:24

No. The entire purpose of a cop's job is to protect private property and the interests of capitalism.

People working in other jobs - say as teachers, shop assistants, waiters, etc - aren't "actively" protecting capitalist society. They're cogs in the machine, but their entire purpose isn't to protect capitalist society.

Of course not to the same degree. But for example, donating to Obama's campaign would be actively protecting capitalist society. In fact, any political activism for a non-socialist ideology would be protecting the system. So why constantly focus on how individual cops are bad rather than the system? Most cops are poor and indoctrinated into believing what they do is right. Sure, some of their actions are good, but most of it is not. But to go to not caring whether they'd die or not, to not fight against those who want to go kill willy-nilly, (if they're genuinely good people), is not going to help the cause of socialism.

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 22:27

Why do you keep bringing up the concept of family and unconditional love as if it was a real thing? Do you really believe that simply because they're family it absolves them from everything they do, and that you should always love them, regardless?

Except no one in my group of family and friends has done anything like this, yet you people don't seem to care if they are murdered and some of you would actively protect such murderers.

Hermes

1st June 2013, 22:29

Except no one in my group of family and friends has done anything like this, yet you people don't seem to care if they are murdered and some of you would actively protect such murderers.

So because they haven't reproduced the exact same extreme example as represented in the OP, they are free of guilt and aren't actively upholding capitalism?

Do they just sit on their asses all day in the station, actively sabotaging any effort to make them patrol or arrest?

Craig_J

1st June 2013, 22:31

You shouldn't take every single post in an internet forum entirely serious. I most certainly wasn't actually suggesting to go out and kill cops as everything you said about the subject is my opinion, too , on a serious note.

Sorry about that then, took it as serious.

Stupidest shit. While I'm sure if we looked deep in to the hearts of the police, we'd find some of them pure and full of sweet intention . . . but let's stop and think for ten seconds about what the function of all police actually is.
I'm not talking (just) about relative outliers like this, where a cute puppy was involved, but the everyday functioning of the prison industrial complex. What you're saying basically falls into the same category as ". . . but some slave owners really loved their slaves! We need to attack the system of slavery!" (the parallel being particularly pertinent when we stop and consider the racialized character of the P.I.C.). While I'm sure that's very comforting to a large number of implicitly white supremacist liberals to hear, "Let's pull down the system without hurting any of the people who's day to day activities constitute that system!" it's, on even cursory analysis, an absurd proposition.

You're joking right? If you truly believe that then fine, why aren't you ot shooting down cops? Why aren't you doing this if you truly believe that that's the way to go about it?

If you believe that we have to attack everyone who helps to keep the system in place then you're not going to leave very many people left in the world. What good does saying "Lets kill cops!" do?

Yeah the functions they peform aren't good at all, don't mistake me for some kind of police state advocate. But why not attempt conciousness raising and try getting the message out there about why it's bad. After all, no effort to get rid of police will happen without serious conciousness riasing. If you disagree, then I ask that you shoot a policeman and see what kind of impact that has on bringing across socalism. Shooting down what the majority of people see as the protectors of society (now before you leap on this comment I know they're certainly not, but that's what they're seen as) isn't going to help at all. In fact, it's going to be quite detrimental.

Hate the system, not the man. When bourgeois society is bringing people up to think that we need this sort of stuff it's going to carry on regardless of how many police you gun down. As another poster has already said, gun down police and they'll just become more vigilant and kill more of us. Play their game if you will, help them get they're message of communists being violent thugs who hate society across if you please. But I'd much rather not play their game where they're purposley trying to stir up trouble to give them more reason, in the eyes of the vast majority of people in the world, to enact harsher punishments and tred the name of socalism with even more dirt then they so already.

Kalinin's Facial Hair

1st June 2013, 22:32

This is the weirdest thread ever wtf

Quail

1st June 2013, 22:33

Of course not to the same degree. But for example, donating to Obama's campaign would be actively protecting capitalist society. In fact, any political activism for a non-socialist ideology would be protecting the system. So why constantly focus on how individual cops are bad rather than the system? Most cops are poor and indoctrinated into believing what they do is right. Sure, some of their actions are good, but most of it is not. But to go to not caring whether they'd die or not, to not fight against those who want to go kill willy-nilly, (if they're genuinely good people), is not going to help the cause of socialism.

I'm not focusing on individual cops. In fact I said whether or not individual cops are good or bad is irrelevant. I also didn't say anything about whether or not they deserve to die. My point was that cops are doing a job that is inherently anti-working class because of their role in society. I gave examples of why that is the case, and you haven't given any arguments to support your idea that cops aren't inherently anti-working class. Cops are class traitors and there is no other way of looking at it.

Craig_J

1st June 2013, 22:36

nay, cops are shyte and i really dont want scum like this on our side.

so workers arnt importent, only armed workers who protect for the state? let the revolution come and we'll see where the police and the military stands, i have my doubts that they will be on our side.

Yeah you're right, they probably wouldn't be on our side. Not when people are threatning to kill them and gun them down without actually educating them on the reasons why they shouldn't be doing what they are.

If you're resigned to not having police or military recruited to our side then you may as well give up now because without them on our side the revolution will be one big mess with all of us dead and long forgotten about with bourgeois society carrying on the same way as it always has.

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 22:37

So because they haven't reproduced the exact same extreme example as represented in the OP, they are free of guilt and aren't actively upholding capitalism?

EVERYONE who isn't a socialist and supports capitalist movements are supporting the system. Cops that do stuff like this, or stop protests, etc do so more of course. But seriously, where are you going to get when most people who are cops don't do racist things like this? And then their families and friends see those "crazy socialists" calling their husband/dad/son a heartless and racist pig who deserves death? That's not the way forward.

Do they just sit on their asses all day in the station, actively sabotaging any effort to make them patrol or arrest?

No they work. They're poor, like millions of others are here. But they think they're also doing the right thing, and often they do, so have no sympathy if they're murdered? Hurl insults at all of them when they are so apolitical they have no idea any cases like this are common? Really?

Craig_J

1st June 2013, 22:39

I'm not focusing on individual cops. In fact I said whether or not individual cops are good or bad is irrelevant. I also didn't say anything about whether or not they deserve to die. My point was that cops are doing a job that is inherently anti-working class because of their role in society. I gave examples of why that is the case, and you haven't given any arguments to support your idea that cops aren't inherently anti-working class. Cops are class traitors and there is no other way of looking at it.

Maybe they are class tratiors, but why not find out why they're class traitors. It's because the system brings through people to be so through promoting bourgeois hegenomy and false class conciousness. Without stoping the source of this hegenomy you'll never prevent the outcome, no matter what you do.

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 22:39

I'm not focusing on individual cops. In fact I said whether or not individual cops are good or bad is irrelevant. I also didn't say anything about whether or not they deserve to die. My point was that cops are doing a job that is inherently anti-working class because of their role in society. I gave examples of why that is the case, and you haven't given any arguments to support your idea that cops aren't inherently anti-working class. Cops are class traitors and there is no other way of looking at it.

Except I never said this, and I agree that they're supporting the capitalist system. The whole debate on this thread was about people spewing how they want to kill cops ie individuals for which I am against.

Craig_J

1st June 2013, 22:51

I know you're a liberal and all but... do you have to be such a piglover? Sorry, that's unfair to pigs (actual pigs are fucking cute after all) to be associated with these foul-smelling carcases.

Actually you're being far more liberal then him, in the sense that you seem to think becoming a cop is a complete moral and informed descision which is made by an individual.

You seem to think that everyone who chooses to be a police oficer does so completely out of their own choice and that they're informed about the anti-working class notions of such a descion yet still choose to ignore it.

Well, if you believe that why are you a socalist?? If everyone makes an informed and moral descion then all those who work in the capitalist system are doing so out of choice, all those who are greedy are doing so out of choice, all those who are doing police work are doing so out of chice.

And if it's all done completely out of choice then, going by your logic, no form of socalism or communism will ever work because they're doing all these things as a matter of choice. You're making the exact same arguments any pro-capitalist would make. How could socalism work if all these people are performing these roles and commiting these actions out of choice?

It's not out of choice. These are people who are being coniditioned from day one to go down one of these paths. The only way socalism can work is if these aren't simple choice based well infroemd decisions but are ill-informed descisions taking by inidviduals who are being conditioned. The only way you can stop people making these descisions is to eliminate the source its self, not the people themselves. If you were to remove a cop every day it wouldn't matter as for everyone you remove the system is currently producing and grroming 5, perhaps even more,, to take their place.

The logic of some people on this forum really astounds me some times.

Ele'ill

1st June 2013, 22:57

Fourth Internationalist

1st June 2013, 23:03

they hurt us, kill us, imprison us, keep us poor, they are not 'some workers chillin' they're the armed thug wing of the ruling class and honestly I am immediately skeptical when people talk of family who are cops that are 'no really they're good cops they're pretty chill they don't do bad stuff' I think it's more likely they don't tell you about all the monstrous things they've done or the monstrous things are just daily occurrences with weak explanations and a waterfall of fingerpointing apologies. The next most 'off' thing is this 'u have 2 think of cops as individuals criticize the system not the individuals' hey guess what the police are individual cops standing behind the state 100% if they want to be ignored in the critique they should quit their jobs

Yeah, my family are secret racist thugs that like to beat black 5-year-olds. But they just don't tell me about it. No, in all seriousness their job as a cop is completely boring and full of paper work with awful wages. Not exactly thug-like to me. But of course, they're just lying to protect their secret thug-life.

Ele'ill

1st June 2013, 23:06

Actually you're being far more liberal then him, in the sense that you seem to think becoming a cop is a complete moral and informed descision which is made by an individual.

You seem to think that everyone who chooses to be a police oficer does so completely out of their own choice and that they're informed about the anti-working class notions of such a descion yet still choose to ignore it.

yeah except most cops know what being a cop is about the blueline kind of demonstrates this where any critical thought against cops by cops means immediate and permanent alienation from their porkslab former friends

Craig_J

1st June 2013, 23:08

they hurt us, kill us, imprison us, keep us poor, they are not 'some workers chillin' they're the armed thug wing of the ruling class and honestly I am immediately skeptical when people talk of family who are cops that are 'no really they're good cops they're pretty chill they don't do bad stuff' I think it's more likely they don't tell you about all the monstrous things they've done or the monstrous things are just daily occurrences with weak explanations and a waterfall of fingerpointing apologies. The next most 'off' thing is this 'u have 2 think of cops as individuals criticize the system not the individuals' hey guess what the police are individual cops standing behind the state 100% if they want to be ignored in the critique they should quit their jobs

As I have just stated, if you believe that they're making a well informed descison and then choosing completely themselves to go down these career paths then how can socalism ever work? If it's a complete and utter choice of the individual then people will always make descions such as these and, according to your logic, socalism will never work.

Ele'ill

1st June 2013, 23:12

Yeah, my family are secret racist thugs that like to beat black 5-year-olds. But they just don't tell me about it. No, in all seriousness their job as a cop is completely boring and full of paper work with awful wages. Not exactly thug-like to me. But of course, they're just lying to protect their secret thug-life.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if they were lying to you given the prevalence of police violence.

Ele'ill

1st June 2013, 23:14

As I have just stated, if you believe that they're making a well informed descison and then choosing completely themselves to go down these career paths then how can socalism ever work? If it's a complete and utter choice of the individual then people will always make descions such as these and, according to your logic, socalism will never work.

What?

Craig_J

1st June 2013, 23:20

What?

You're saying that Cops are individuals making a choice to stand behid the state despite the fact they know what evil they're doing. Well if they truly know they're betraying the working class then how can socalism ever work? Going by your logic they've made this descion themselves. They themselves have decided to become cops. How can socalism ever be achieved if peope make choices completely based on their own judgment? Because that would mean that every greedy and immoral descion that's ever been taken is down to the choice of the inidivudal alone, and that would indicate that socalism would never work as inidviduals themselves decide to take immoral actions.

Ele'ill

1st June 2013, 23:35

You're saying that Cops are individuals making a choice to stand behid the state despite the fact they know what evil they're doing. Well if they truly know they're betraying the working class then how can socalism ever work? Going by your logic they've made this descion themselves. They themselves have decided to become cops. How can socalism ever be achieved if peope make choices completely based on their own judgment? Because that would mean that every greedy and immoral descion that's ever been taken is down to the choice of the inidivudal alone, and that would indicate that socalism would never work as inidviduals themselves decide to take immoral actions.

It doesn't matter if cops even know what the state is so long as they are fighting for it they will be an enemy combatant, because they don't think what they do is 'bad', but it is, it's dominating, violent, repressive and they think those things are 'right'. Otherwise we let our future (use your imagination here) global general strikes and fireworks filled insurrections get broken by the weird pacifist moral dogma that 'they don't know any better so we shuld surrender' or 'they have a right to their opinion/perception we should surrender'

Ele'ill

2nd June 2013, 00:09

also, 'greedy' and 'morals' are problematic to discuss in relation to a communist future because both are viewed from the perspective of our current society

Craig_J

2nd June 2013, 00:16

It doesn't matter if cops even know what the state is so long as they are fighting for it they will be an enemy combatant, because they don't think what they do is 'bad', but it is, it's dominating, violent, repressive and they think those things are 'right'. Otherwise we let our future (use your imagination here) global general strikes and fireworks filled insurrections get broken by the weird pacifist moral dogma that 'they don't know any better so we shuld surrender' or 'they have a right to their opinion/perception we should surrender'

As you've said though, they think these things are right. The general population also thinks they're right. By killing a cop all it serves is to make it appear that police brutality is justified so that they can "neturalise the threat" as the police inapprpriatley have used. The majority of the population do see them as protectors of society, it's a sad truth but a truth none the less. If we start killing of what they see as protectors of society, regardless of the fact (and this is one thing we can agree on!) that they're clearly not, they will see us also as a threat. They may even throw the ultimate insult and hypocritical rhetoric at us and label us as fascists who are trying to impose our beliefs on them. All we can do is try and educate people on why we don't need them and on how we are quite capable of living without them. Without the general population on our side the police aren't the first enemy we face, the first enemy we face is the insitutions, such as the eudcation system, which impose the bourgeois values onto the masses.

The only weapon we can use at the moment is reason. Once we have used that the masses will join with us and the state will crumble. If not, then once we have the backing of the mass population and can claim a democratic unanimous majority the police and army who still back the state, of which there will be little if we've done our job on educating people properly, may result to slaughter and combat in order to keep the status-quo intact. At that point the police and army will become our number one enemy, as at that point we can claim that we've done our job of recruiting the masses and creating a true class consciousness. At that point all that will be left to back the bourgeosie state will be the bourgeosie themselves. That's the point when we can make them our number one enemy and possibly justify combat.

But at the moment killing any police officer when there's clearly no class conciousness in place and bourgeois values are firmly rooted in society would only serve to undermine our position and potentially turn people further away from us.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist

2nd June 2013, 00:17

Not, it's not "stupid shit". Most police are normal middle class people. The bad ones are a minority.

Police produce no use value or do any socially necessary labor. They are not exploited, their only role is the reproductive role of reproducing the system. Regardless of how nice they are, they are our class enemies.

They too are facing hard economic times. Killing them will only make you look like a lunatic, rightfully so. What will your justification be to family and friends of a now dead cop with children who had never done anything like the ones in this story? Do you tell people "good" when you hear a cop dies? Would you kill friends and family of mine who are cops? After that, how would you convince them your fight is 'just'?

The only morality is class morality. The only reason why we shouldn't go forth and do that is because it would not be a tactically sound strategy for ending capitalism, if it was, then by all means let's get started.

Craig_J

2nd June 2013, 00:31

Police produce no use value or do any socially necessary labor. They are not exploited, their only role is the reproductive role of reproducing the system. Regardless of how nice they are, they are our class enemies.

The only morality is class morality. The only reason why we shouldn't go forth and do that is because it would not be a tactically sound strategy for ending capitalism, if it was, then by all means let's get started.

Sure, let's have our own 'Final Solution'.

Jesus, sometimes I wonder why people automaically assume that the left are all nutjobs. I think this thread is starting to answer my wonderment!

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist

2nd June 2013, 00:34

Sure, let's have our own 'Final Solution'.

Jesus, sometimes I wonder why people automaically assume that the left are all nutjobs. I think this thread is starting to answer my wonderment!

A failure to engage the content of an argument is an admittance of defeat.

Althusser

2nd June 2013, 00:35

Yes.

The police.

Who are charging him with felony resisting arrest.

Also, don't shoot cops you morons, propagandize them. Convince them. Get them on OUR side. Have them disobey illegal orders.

If the police and soldiers support US then there's no one left to defend the state, and it will fall. That's the only way that revolutions become succesful.

Same could be said about the bourgeoisie. Just convince them to join us.

It's very unlikely. If the people of the US started making revolutionary gains, the cops and especially the military would be the fuckin' freikorps, protecting the ruling class til the end, at the head of the transition to fascist military state. Nahmeannn?

Fourth Internationalist

2nd June 2013, 00:39

Police produce no use value or do any socially necessary labor. They are not exploited, their only role is the reproductive role of reproducing the system. Regardless of how nice they are, they are our class enemies.

I don't know why everyone seems to keep thinking I think that the police system is right and not anti-working class. From Quail, to YABM, etc the list keeps going on. Anyways, most cops are not living the life of luxury, many are pretty poor, they're working as much hours and getting paid just as much as a working class job. The majority is not just a bunch of WN thugs beating up black teenagers for shits and giggles.

The only morality is class morality. The only reason why we shouldn't go forth and do that is because it would not be a tactically sound strategy for ending capitalism, if it was, then by all means let's get started. This is in response to my post about you people not caring about killing my relatives. Great. Real great, assholes.

Craig_J

2nd June 2013, 00:42

A failure to engage the content of an argument is an admittance of defeat.

I've engaged in it, reply to any of my other posts if you wish as no one has engaged with them.

Kalinin's Facial Hair

2nd June 2013, 00:47

For as much as I consider the police and the army to play the role of the (or a?) class enemy, the lack of left work within the corporation/army bugs me. I know that the environment is hostile to left-leaning politics, but we're just making it too easy.

I mean, looking back at Brazilian history, we did have quite a few revolutionary soldiers.

Thewhitesea

2nd June 2013, 00:52

I'm sure if there were supposedly "nice policemen" that some of you happen to be friends with, they wouldn't have a problem standing with you in the movement rather than against you.

Hermes

2nd June 2013, 00:57

Anyways, most cops are not living the life of luxury, many are pretty poor, they're working as much hours and getting paid just as much as a working class job.

So obviously the content of their job is the same as any other worker, simply because they're "pretty poor".

The majority is not just a bunch of WN thugs beating up black teenagers for shits and giggles.

No one's made this argument. It doesn't help your point.

This is in response to my post about you people not caring about killing my relatives. Great. Real great, assholes.

...sorry that your family isn't exempt from analysis simply because they're family, I guess.

Craig_J

2nd June 2013, 01:04

I'm sure if there were supposedly "nice policemen" that some of you happen to be friends with, they wouldn't have a problem standing with you in the movement rather than against you.

I'm not friends with any policemen. In fact, most of the policemen I have encountered have been absoloute scum. I'm 19 so aren't really at the age when anyone I know would be a police officer, but I know one old school friend is now about to undergo traning to be a police officer.

Saying "they wouldn't have a problem standing with you in the movement" isn't really a great way to judge a persons character as 99% of the world aren't standing with us in a momvment now. That doesn't mean they're all horrible scum, it just means they're of a different poliitcal belief, largely because they've been indoctrinated into bourgoeis society, same as with police.

Thewhitesea

2nd June 2013, 01:16

Saying "they wouldn't have a problem standing with you in the movement" isn't really a great way to judge a persons character as 99% of the world aren't standing with us in a momvment now. That doesn't mean they're all horrible scum, it just means they're of a different poliitcal belief, largely because they've been indoctrinated into bourgoeis society, same as with police.

Well yes, you're right, most of the world isn't exactly "with us" right now which is why a revolution at this point wouldn't likely to be feasible until we somehow change that. I guess I should have used the word "revolution" instead of "movement" because I'm not talking about having different political views in this moment right now (my bad). I'm talking about a scenario in which we would have to stand against such institutions like police, military, etc. So I think if we were to be put in that scenario it'd be much easier to see who our true friends are, and they'd certainly not be the one to keep their blue uniform on.

Fourth Internationalist

2nd June 2013, 01:20

So obviously the content of their job is the same as any other worker, simply because they're "pretty poor".

That is not what I said. The jobs are different, but this idea that these cops are a homogeneous group of thugs beating up 14 year olds, who deserve to die is disgusting.

No one's made this argument. It doesn't help your point.Not the exact words, sure, but the idea that my relatives are evil thugs has been made, and then the idea that them dying would not be bad has also been made.

...sorry that your family isn't exempt from analysis simply because they're family, I guess.I have never said that, nor do I disagree. However, the idea that they should die does personally offend me. Sorry if that's too liberal for all you people to understand.

Invader Zim

2nd June 2013, 02:53

I know you're a liberal and all but... do you have to be such a piglover? Sorry, that's unfair to pigs (actual pigs are fucking cute after all) to be associated with these foul-smelling carcases.

It's utterly and totally bloody irrelevant what police are like in their sacred iron-railed ice-fortified hearts, they can be the sweetest people alive and it doesn't change the fact that they are at the forefront of reaction and the forceful fist of the bourgeois state.

The revolution is also not a popularity contest. And the families of those swine, let's just put it this way, they aren't exactly inclined to be of the progressive sort by any measure, after all "They risk their lives to maintain order and security! WAAH WAAAH, cops I love 'em! I'm proud of you, dad!" and then they go watch that terrible television show about that filthy cop-scum family and how perilous their work is while another dozen construction workers die in accidents.

Unrelated, but why are american cops always sporting Nazi-like hairdo's and are almost universally so fucking fat? Even that filthy cop-loving show COPS doesn't often show the bastards being anything but utterly despicable beasts.

Palm. Face.

Yeah, you don't like cops. Got it. Few people on this board do. But usually they manage to make serious posts regarding law, order, enforcement and the punitive 'justice' system, not critiquing the cops because they 'smell'.

Skyhilist

2nd June 2013, 04:57

As I already stated I'm not talking about killing cops I said that was a bad idea, nor am I talking about an armed red dawn struggle. Theoretically, I'm not talking about engaging anything in particular because that isn't up to me it would be up to folks thinking about this concept and their current situation/location/etc but it doesn't take 'the proletariat' to attack capital and peripherals or to escalate within current situations where it may make sense to do so.

I really have no idea what you're trying to advocate here. What do you even by by "attack capital" and how is it a rebuttal to anything I've said about cops in this thread? I already said that if attacked or brutalized by cops it should be acceptable to defend oneself, so I'm really not even sure what you mean beyond that.

which is how every subversive action, organization and movement is presented to the public this won't change

I was referencing killing cops though, which would obviously get socialists a lot worse of a reputation that things like self-defense at protests, regardless of this.

Nicolas_Cage

2nd June 2013, 05:11

Speaking of bad cops, you guys should check out the film "Bad Lieutenant".

Skyhilist

2nd June 2013, 05:19

Seriously, people like Takayuki, what the hell do you think you're helping? maybe instead of attacking User Name actually to explain your points clearly and not make it look like you'd like his family dead "just for the hell of it", or some shit like that.

Anyways so here's the thing: I don't fetishize violence against any group. But, the idea of revolution isn't just "oh we eradicate all the cops and them we have socialism." That's not how it works. HOWEVER, when engaging in revolution, we will inevitably be attacked by the cops, who are there to defend bourgeois class rule in those situations. We can't not resort to violence when they attack us for waging revolution... So inevitably we will have to fight back. Some cops will probably die and some revolutionaries will probably die. And for everything who dies on either side who's heart was actually in the right place -- that is tragic, but it is unfortunately a part of what happens in war, and will not be exempt from class war. User Name, no one (hopefully) thinks that just randomly killing one of your relatives would be productive or necessary -- but when revolutionaries engage in class war and are attacked by people like police for doing so, we have to defend ourselves, not because "killing is fun, especially cops", but because it's what's needed to win and to prevent ourselves from being killed and injured. But of course, it's not productive to jus randomly attack cops... There will always be more to replace them anyways if that's how we do things. So, perhaps if we ever do have a revolution, tell anyone you know that's a cop to say, maybe not go try to go deal with that bakery down the road that the workers have just expropriated. Perhaps you can't convince them to support us, but maybe you can at least convince them to do that? Because in any successful revolution, the deaths of people like cops won't be "because we want to kill", but because we've been attacked and must fight back to defend revolution.

Flying Purple People Eater

2nd June 2013, 06:43

But doesn't that also apply to everyone else because they are all actively protecting capitalist society?
No, because they are not armed and given the allowance to act as the force of the country. An uncle tom complaining about authoritarian unions in the workplace is one thing - police firing tear gas at aggressive protesters is another.

It certainly doesn't call for such views that killing them willy-nilly is not at least partially immoral.

This is a strawman. Where did Quail call for 'killing cops willy-nilly' when calling them defenders of capital?

Craig_J

2nd June 2013, 06:45

Well yes, you're right, most of the world isn't exactly "with us" right now which is why a revolution at this point wouldn't likely to be feasible until we somehow change that. I guess I should have used the word "revolution" instead of "movement" because I'm not talking about having different political views in this moment right now (my bad). I'm talking about a scenario in which we would have to stand against such institutions like police, military, etc. So I think if we were to be put in that scenario it'd be much easier to see who our true friends are, and they'd certainly not be the one to keep their blue uniform on.

Yes, that's what I said. I do believe that some genuinley nice people are police officers as I've stated. I do also believe that some of them won't be Marxist revolotionary right at this point in time, even if they're friends with someone who is. But I beleive once we've achieved true conciousness raising and have reached a unaimous united conensus, as I've stated, the insitutions which hold bourgeois society will start to degenrate and crumble, at which point the only enemies left will be the bourgeoise themselves, rather than pawns that have been indoctrinated into play their game.

But we aren't in that situation now as you've quite rightly said so people saying they want to go out and shoot cops right now wouldn't do any favours, would do us a lot of harm and it would be completely ridiculous to gun down groups of people we should aim to win over/ stop from joining.

Flying Purple People Eater

2nd June 2013, 06:53

Jesus, sometimes I wonder why people automatically assume that the left are all nutjobs. I think this thread is starting to answer my wonderment!
I think it's more to do with the fact that you've grown up in a country where the only two major parties have the political ideal of a neoclassical hell.

Craig_J

2nd June 2013, 07:04

I think it's more to do with the fact that you've grown up in a country where the only two major parties have the political ideal of a neoclassical hell.

Definantly plays a huge part in it, but doubt the "We'll shoot them all down" talk does many favours. I think most people don't take kindly to the idea of killing as a solution to a problem.

Fourth Internationalist

2nd June 2013, 15:00

No, because they are not armed and given the allowance to act as the force of the country. An uncle tom complaining about authoritarian unions in the workplace is one thing - police firing tear gas at aggressive protesters is another.
Except cops in my family have never done this! And then this reason and cases like this thread are ones that get people to say things like they don't feel bad if cops, like close family members of mine, were murdered, or that they're secret thugs who lie about they're secret WN job, and as if they're not poor and facing tough economic times like the rest of us. Yeah, cause all cops just beat up black children all day, so who cares if they die! And yes, I know the police system is oppressive towards the working class, I have never stated otherwise. You people need to stop putting words into my mouth.

This is a strawman. Where did Quail call for 'killing cops willy-nilly' when calling them defenders of capital?

I was talking about all the other people talking about police killing, not her. So no, it is not a straw man.

Hermes

2nd June 2013, 15:52

Except cops in my family have never done this! And then this reason and cases like this thread are ones that get people to say things like they don't feel bad if cops, like close family members of mine, were murdered, or that they're secret thugs who lie about they're secret WN job, and as if they're not poor and facing tough economic times like the rest of us. Yeah, cause all cops just beat up black children all day, so who cares if they die! And yes, I know the police system is oppressive towards the working class, I have never stated otherwise. You people need to stop putting words into my mouth.

Again, though, and what you seem to keep ignoring, it's irrelevant. Regardless of what your personal, entirely unique, family has done in the police and what they have not done, they are willing to do so if it means keeping their jobs. Whether or not they happen to have done so in the past ~14 years doesn't matter. Somehow I doubt your town gets a lot of 'angry protestors' anyway.

Fourth Internationalist

2nd June 2013, 16:02

[QUOTE=Hermes;2625221]Again, though, and what you seem to keep ignoring, it's irrelevant. Regardless of what your personal, entirely unique, family has done in the police and what they have not done,

Yes it is relevant. People on this thread want to see cops dead because of stories like these, yet only a minority of cops do these things. That is the whole point of my continuing posts, yet people are accusing me off defending the system as not anti-working class.

they are willing to do so if it means keeping their jobs.

No they are not willing to assault 14 year olds. How was this incident a fight for their jobs?

[QUOTE]Whether or not they happen to have done so in the past ~14 years doesn't matter.

It does. If they haven't done anything, they do not deserve death.

Dropdead

2nd June 2013, 16:06

[QUOTE]
Yes it is relevant. People on this thread want to see cops dead because of stories like these, yet only a minority of cops do these things. That is the whole point of my continuing posts, yet people are accusing me off defending the system as not anti-working class.

No they are not willing to assault 14 year olds. How was this incident a fight for their jobs?

[QUOTE]Whether or not they happen to have done so in the past ~14 years doesn't matter.

It does. If they haven't done anything, they do not deserve death.

Yea, in riots every cop is so goddamn peaceful! I know man it's awesome to get beaten by 10 cops at the same time while lying on the ground!
In riots, atleast, every cop goes crazy and just enjoys beating the shit out of citizens.

Rusakov

2nd June 2013, 16:10

snip story

What the hell? I hope the boy gets at least some justice for this.

Fourth Internationalist

2nd June 2013, 16:24

Yea, in riots every cop is so goddamn peaceful!

I never said this! Why is everyone is this thread putting words into my mouth constantly over and over again?!

I know man it's awesome to get beaten by 10 cops at the same time while lying on the ground!

Why does everyone on this thread have to act like such a child?

In riots, atleast, every cop goes crazy and just enjoys beating the shit out of citizens.

Yeah all cops are secret sadists.

Dropdead

2nd June 2013, 16:27

I never said this! Why is everyone is this thread putting words into my mouth constantly over and over again?!

Why does everyone on this thread have to act like such a child?

Yeah all cops are secret sadists.

That thing has happened to me IRL and I just put some sarcasm in it, not trying to ''act like a child''

Fourth Internationalist

2nd June 2013, 16:40

That thing has happened to me IRL and I just put some sarcasm in it, not trying to ''act like a child''

So what does it have to do with my posts, then? Irrelevent sarcasm is childish.

I do not disagree that many cops have done bad things. However, some people here believe all cops are secret racist thugs living the good life. So, they dont care if they are dead. That's just not true and is disgusting. I'm not saying all or nessecarily most cops are good people as they are not a homogenous group. My points in this thread have nothing to do with defending the police system as so many of you people are thinking they are.

Ele'ill

2nd June 2013, 19:08

I really have no idea what you're trying to advocate here. What do you even by by "attack capital" and how is it a rebuttal to anything I've said about cops in this thread?

I was pointing out that your immediate response to engaging the state that 'we' are out numbered and that it would take 'the proletariat' is about as relevant as people posting about killing cops on an internet forum when there are actually very valid ways to engage in direct action against the state that doesn't involve harming or killing someone and doesn't require some impossible homogenized critical-mass societal hive action. It might come as a shock that there never will be a final battle scene.

I already said that if attacked or brutalized by cops it should be acceptable to defend oneself, so I'm really not even sure what you mean beyond that.

Being kept poor is a perpetual attack and brutalization the existence of police is a systemic attack on freedom, repression of liberation. Also, 'should be acceptable' to who? The State? The Law? Your family and friends? Are you viewing morals through the lens of current society or through one of liberation?

I was referencing killing cops though, which would obviously get socialists a lot worse of a reputation that things like self-defense at protests, regardless of this.

I think you should drop the fetish for reputation because it is unwinnable.

Ele'ill

2nd June 2013, 20:06

As you've said though, they think these things are right. The general population also thinks they're right. By killing a cop all it serves is to make it appear that police brutality is justified so that they can "neturalise the threat" as the police inapprpriatley have used.

First of all we're talking about killing cops right now and not during a global crisis that we have not yet seen, right?. Okay so right now when someone kills a cop I think of the cop's role within society. That is my thought process and I don't really shed any tears. Regarding 'revolutionary strategy' or 'methods of attack, escalation, organization' I think there are projects that allow for greater duration. All of the above was beyond my original point though that users half jokingly posting about killing cops regarding strategy and not just 'billions and billions of dead cops ACAB' memes is about as irrelevant as proposing to not engage in actions against the state because 'cops are family and friends' or whatever

The majority of the population do see them as protectors of society, it's a sad truth but a truth none the less.I don't agree with this. I think it depends on what portion of 'the population' you ask.

If we start killing of what they see as protectors of society, regardless of the fact (and this is one thing we can agree on!) that they're clearly not, they will see us also as a threat. They may even throw the ultimate insult and hypocritical rhetoric at us and label us as fascists who are trying to impose our beliefs on them. All we can do is try and educate people on why we don't need them and on how we are quite capable of living without them. Without the general population on our side the police aren't the first enemy we face, the first enemy we face is the insitutions, such as the eudcation system, which impose the bourgeois values onto the masses. If you haven't paid attention ever the media and who the media turns to for information and statements already labels 'us' as all the negative things in the entire world because 'we' are their enemies. That's already the norm. Action against the state is not 'us' trying to impose our beliefs it's direct action against an oppressive barrier in 'our' life.

The only weapon we can use at the moment is reason. Once we have used that the masses will join with us and the state will crumble.And how has that been working so far? Pretty good?

If not, then once we have the backing of the mass populationwho or what is 'we'? I consider myself more a part of the mass population than a part of some mythos 'we' at the very least the 'we' are people I can actually reach out and talk with and act with

and can claim a democratic unanimous majority the police and army who still back the state, of which there will be little if we've done our job on educating people properly, may result to slaughter and combat in order to keep the status-quo intact. At that point the police and army will become our number one enemy, as at that point we can claim that we've done our job of recruiting the masses and creating a true class consciousness. At that point all that will be left to back the bourgeosie state will be the bourgeosie themselves. That's the point when we can make them our number one enemy and possibly justify combat.so getting everyone on the entire planet to agree with "we"'s idea before taking action sounds legitimate and actually possible to you? It might surprise you that the 'we' organization doesn't even last long enough to become relevant in its home town.

But at the moment killing any police officer when there's clearly no class conciousness in place and bourgeois values are firmly rooted in society would only serve to undermine our position and potentially turn people further away from us.I think the guerrilla red dawn strategy would get crushed. I think other strategies to directly engage the state don't.

Craig_J

2nd June 2013, 22:32

I don't agree with this. I think it depends on what portion of 'the population' you ask.

If you were to ask the population whether we need police the vast majority would say yes. If you were to ask whether or not we should kill them all I think even less would agree with that.

If you haven't paid attention ever the media and who the media turns to for information and statements already labels 'us' as all the negative things in the entire world because 'we' are their enemies. That's already the norm. Action against the state is not 'us' trying to impose our beliefs it's direct action against an oppressive barrier in 'our' life.

So you seriously think we could win a revolution right now? Most of the population wouldn't agree with it. They'd revolt against it immediatley. You say that it's got nothing to do with winning people over, well how do you suppose we stop the vast majority of people revolting after a revolution? Well the only solution would be to have our own police force and use them. Therefore taking us back to square 1.

And how has that been working so far? Pretty good?

No, because there's not enough of us. Which is exactly why reasoning isn't working and why a revolution or mass killing of the police wouldn't work anyway.

who or what is 'we'? I consider myself more a part of the mass population than a part of some mythos 'we' at the very least the 'we' are people I can actually reach out and talk with and act with

so getting everyone on the entire planet to agree with "we"'s idea before taking action sounds legitimate and actually possible to you? It might surprise you that the 'we' organization doesn't even last long enough to become relevant in its home town.

I think the guerrilla red dawn strategy would get crushed. I think other strategies to directly engage the state don't.

So you accept leftist orginisations don't last long enough to become relevant in a town but you think we can go out and hold some kind of revolution? :laugh: Yeah OK then, think we'll have to fight off the Monster Raving Loony Party first, they might get the same idea once they find out they don't need the backing of the mass population to make it work.

Don't be so ridiculous! If it was that easy a revolution would of happened a long, long, long time ago.

MarxArchist

2nd June 2013, 23:03

Except no one in my group of family and friends has done anything like this, yet you people don't seem to care if they are murdered and some of you would actively protect such murderers.
Hey son/daughter, how was your day, today I harassed and arrested people of color for no reason. I also turned a blind eye while my fellow pigs plant evidence, beat people and talk about itching for the opportunity to use their firearm on anyone and everyone who looks at them wrong or makes a "sudden move". Can you pass the butter please?

Ele'ill

3rd June 2013, 00:26

If you were to ask the population whether we need police the vast majority would say yes. If you were to ask whether or not we should kill them all I think even less would agree with that.

I'm not saying the vast majority of people have a radical series of talking points on the topic but from my experience there is a considerable portion perhaps the vast majority who don't like the police and don't think 'the police' as they know it now are necessary so basically at the very least they want a series of changes or reforms which I obviously disagree with. I don't even think asking radicals 'should we kill them all' will result in a torrent of yes's. All of this is irrelevant as you're trying to frame the concept of a future society and police abolition off of a doctrine of not even non-violence but one of pure non-confrontation.

So you seriously think we could win a revolution right now? Most of the population wouldn't agree with it. They'd revolt against it immediatley. You say that it's got nothing to do with winning people over, well how do you suppose we stop the vast majority of people revolting after a revolution? Well the only solution would be to have our own police force and use them. Therefore taking us back to square 1.

No and I don't know that revolutions will ever occur as discussed on this forum. None of this means that we cannot attack.

No, because there's not enough of us. Which is exactly why reasoning isn't working and why a revolution or mass killing of the police wouldn't work anyway.

I'm not talking about mass killings of anything. So if you organize under a banner of de-escalation, non-confrontation and non-violence with a quantitative goal what will happen, what have we seen happen? What have we seen with monolithic, rights groups, religious justice groups, unions, revolution or assimilation? Action or waiting? Concern for progress or concern for maintaining the structure?

So you accept leftist orginisations don't last long enough to become relevant in a town but you think we can go out and hold some kind of revolution? :laugh:

no, fuck left organizations

Yeah OK then, think we'll have to fight off the Monster Raving Loony Party first, they might get the same idea once they find out they don't need the backing of the mass population to make it work.

what?

Don't be so ridiculous! If it was that easy a revolution would of happened a long, long, long time ago.

I don't think revolution has anything to do with formal/traditional organization or critical mass in the way you are suggesting it would occur, I think it has more to do with conditions. You can't even convince everyone within a party-line organization to agree on major things let alone a global population with their own unique struggles and opportunities towards informal organization, attack, and solidarity.

Decolonize The Left

3rd June 2013, 02:02

[QUOTE]

It does. If they haven't done anything, they do not deserve death.

The whole notion of desert is a tough one when it comes to mediating out life and death - but that is a separate matter. I only wish to say that it would be wise of you to understand when folks are reacting emotionally to a very difficult news item (calling for cops to be killed, etc...). If you can do this, then you won't attempt to take the people seriously and can avoid much of the events which have occupied this thread.

The whole deal of how to look at cops through a leftist lens takes on different hues depending upon the glasses you're wearing. I think it's safest to say that cops occupy a role in society which represses and oppresses the working class as they are individuals employed by the capitalist class and hence do not represent our interests.

Hence they are technically enemies of the working class and deserve to be treated as such. This doesn't mean killing them at all but it does mean acknowledging that no matter how well-intentioned or kind a cop may be, s/he is still on the other side of the trench when it comes to what's best for you as a worker.

Craig_J

3rd June 2013, 02:08

I'm not saying the vast majority of people have a radical series of talking points on the topic but from my experience there is a considerable portion perhaps the vast majority who don't like the police and don't think 'the police' as they know it now are necessary so basically at the very least they want a series of changes or reforms which I obviously disagree with. I don't even think asking radicals 'should we kill them all' will result in a torrent of yes's. All of this is irrelevant as you're trying to frame the concept of a future society and police abolition off of a doctrine of not even non-violence but one of pure non-confrontation.

No and I don't know that revolutions will ever occur as discussed on this forum. None of this means that we cannot attack.

I'm not saying we should have pure non-confrontation. I'm saying it's pointless to go out at this momemnt and time and killing a load of police when people don't even understand what the left stand for. Bourgeois propoganda has left to a very poor understanding of what the left are actually aiming for. In some parts of the world, such as the USA, people would equate being a leftist with being like Obama which is so far from the truth.

Yes, none of this doesn't mean we cannot attack. We could attack when ever we feel like. Doesn't mean that we should attack though.

Please explain then how you think the revolution would occur? Because from reading your posts it seems like you think we will go out and attack, with no plan for what we happen in the extrmley unlikely event that we're succesful, because as you've said, fuck leftist orginisations. We take down every policeman then afterwards we have no plan for what happens afterwards. We're then left sat around doing nothing whilst the majority of people, who are pro-capitalist, sit around reforming everything that we've destroyed as we've had no plan for how society looks after we've done. After which, capitalist society becomes structured back to how it was and leftist ideas get washed around in the dirt with even more venom then before this so called revolution.

RedSonRising

3rd June 2013, 05:09

People need to stop thinking of the institution of the police as an abstract target that needs to be dealt with decidedly in one manner or the other.

Don't spend time thinking about the police, whether you want to propagandize them or violently confront them. Spend time on organizing workers, teachers, unions, students, etc. and planning short-term and long-term goals for politicizing the masses, and then staging actions which have real material consequences for people. How the police react and which elements of the police are receptive can determine our actions. I doubt many will be sympathetic, but there's no reason to forego the idea, even if it would be unwise to focus your attention on propagandizing police. Many current and former NYPD members have been active in aiding litigation challenging stop-and-frisk and general corruption within the police. Why alienate them? Do your thing, attempt to bring about revolution, try to recruit who you can, and spare no sympathy for those who stand against you once society has taken a truly revolutionary turn.

Craig_J

3rd June 2013, 06:48

L1NKS

3rd June 2013, 07:01

I doubt this racist incident would have gotten reported if it wasn't for the puppy's paw.

Doflamingo

3rd June 2013, 09:32

I doubt this racist incident would have gotten reported if it wasn't for the puppy's paw.

A shame isn't it?

Am I the only one who hopes these officers get sent to prison and slapped around by a few huge guys every day?

Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant'

3rd June 2013, 09:49

Cops are so quick to defend themselves with brute force, it's equally comical and horrifying.
"Hey, that kid's waving his hand in a threatening manner, might have a knife or a gun hidden up his sleeveless shirt, better tase / tackle / shoot him. Threat neutralised."

Seems like if you give somone that kind of authority, and immunity, and it'll lead to abuse.

Ele'ill

3rd June 2013, 14:22

I'm not saying we should have pure non-confrontation. I'm saying it's pointless to go out at this momemnt and time and killing a load of police when people don't even understand what the left stand for. Bourgeois propoganda has left to a very poor understanding of what the left are actually aiming for. In some parts of the world, such as the USA, people would equate being a leftist with being like Obama which is so far from the truth.

Yes, none of this doesn't mean we cannot attack. We could attack when ever we feel like. Doesn't mean that we should attack though.

Please explain then how you think the revolution would occur? Because from reading your posts it seems like you think we will go out and attack, with no plan for what we happen in the extrmley unlikely event that we're succesful, because as you've said, fuck leftist orginisations. We take down every policeman then afterwards we have no plan for what happens afterwards. We're then left sat around doing nothing whilst the majority of people, who are pro-capitalist, sit around reforming everything that we've destroyed as we've had no plan for how society looks after we've done. After which, capitalist society becomes structured back to how it was and leftist ideas get washed around in the dirt with even more venom then before this so called revolution.

Are you aware that I've stated a position against mass killings in every single one of my posts sometimes multiple times in each post but you continue to reference 'killing them all' in your replies to me as if it's something I've actually said. I know it's kind of the lowest common denominator and has a bit of shock value but it's a strawman at this point and incredibly dishonest. My immediate issue with what you are proposing is that in each of your posts you have talked of mass organizing but not that other inevitable part of praxis which is action.

Ele'ill

3rd June 2013, 14:53

People need to stop thinking of the institution of the police as an abstract target that needs to be dealt with decidedly in one manner or the other.

If we did this with every aspect of the state/society we could wish and think our enemies completely away!

Don't spend time thinking about the police, whether you want to propagandize them or violently confront them.

No I kind of am going to spend time thinking about the idea of propagandizing the police and how impossibly dumb it is and I will of course think of how to confront the state by other means.

Spend time on organizing workers, teachers, unions, students, etc. and planning short-term and long-term goals for politicizing the masses, and then staging actions which have real material consequences for people.

tell me, what kind of real material consequences

How the police react and which elements of the police are receptive can determine our actions. I doubt many will be sympathetic, but there's no reason to forego the idea, even if it would be unwise to focus your attention on propagandizing police.

what about politicians maybe we should drop the radical revolutionary portion of what's influenced us and just become liberal reformers that organize and then ask for things through staged-actions.

Many current and former NYPD members have been active in aiding litigation challenging stop-and-frisk and general corruption within the police. Why alienate them?

because I don't want a nicer police force because no such thing can exist, I want police abolished

Do your thing, attempt to bring about revolution, try to recruit who you can, and spare no sympathy for those who stand against you once society has taken a truly revolutionary turn.

so you're saying organize under a banner of inclusion and then when the inevitable resulting revolution comes (which it won't but let's pretend) it is suddenly no sympathy time and those formal cop friendly reformist staged-action organizational structures ......... what do they do besides completely implode?

The Garbage Disposal Unit

3rd June 2013, 17:21

That is not what I said. The jobs are different, but this idea that these cops are a homogeneous group of thugs beating up 14 year olds, who deserve to die is disgusting.

I don't think anybody has said that - rather, people are asserting that the "excesses" (beating up fourteen year olds, shooting unarmed people in the back, mass-arresting demonstrations, and so on) are a normal function that acts in legitimating relationship to everyday police violence. Most cops don't shoot unarmed people in the back - they don't need to, since its function is to be an "isolated incident" (laughable, given its frequency, but, y'know). On the contrary, most cops simply carry out the day-to-day business of enforcing the law - a racist misogynist structure of class warfare. Most cops, y'know, just do their little bit to keep hundreds of thousands of black men in prison.

Not the exact words, sure, but the idea that my relatives are evil thugs has been made, and then the idea that them dying would not be bad has also been made.

I have never said that, nor do I disagree. However, the idea that they should die does personally offend me. Sorry if that's too liberal for all you people to understand.

Get over it. Seriously. I'm sure they're "very nice people", but they're very nice people who are actively waging war on significant sections of the population, and those people have a right to defend themselves.

Jesus Saves Gretzky Scores

3rd June 2013, 18:14

Speaking of bad cops, you guys should check out the film "Bad Lieutenant".

I was reading this in the middle of a pretty quiet class and came so close to laughing out loud.

Vercingetorix

3rd June 2013, 22:35

I'd rather propagandise against them, get more people to loathe cops. That's more productive than vainly appealing to the humanity of instruments of the bourgeois state. ACAB, etc.

I think there's a chance of winning support from soldiers, poor exploited meatbags thrown around to reënforce global capitalist order (except the careerists...), but police seem really hopeless in general. Their jobs aren't even dangerous, contrary to popular belief.

You don't know the police I know.

In large cities like New York, there is absolutely hope for the police. They talk to journalists. They leak information. That's why Stop and Frisk is on Trial.

The men in Blue hate the authority figures in white. I talk to them all the time. I have never met a single man or woman in blue who has defended the officers in white. I've met several men in white who fear what might happen when the tens of thousands of officers in blue wake up to the fact that the police union here is a pyramid scheme.

There is no blue wall in New York City. There is a white wall. If you're LT or above, you can do no wrong. If you wear blue, you get thrown under the bus to protect the men in white.

We can turn the NYPD red. We can split the police union. We can change this city.

We just have to be willing to try. And I would bet that it's the same situation in every police force in a large city, with the exception of some of the places on the west coast, like Oakland. But in the central states? In Chicago? In Florida? In New York and Boston?

There is hope.

Fourth Internationalist

3rd June 2013, 22:46

Hey son/daughter, how was your day, today I harassed and arrested people of color for no reason. I also turned a blind eye while my fellow pigs plant evidence, beat people and talk about itching for the opportunity to use their firearm on anyone and everyone who looks at them wrong or makes a "sudden move". Can you pass the butter please?

Yes, because cops are a homogeneous group of white supremacist thugs. All of them. So what if I know some personally? You're all-knowing. You're right. Always. KILL ALL THE COPS!

Ele'ill

3rd June 2013, 22:54

In large cities like New York, there is absolutely hope for the police. They talk to journalists.

hahahahaha

I talk to them all the time.

I bet

Ele'ill

3rd June 2013, 22:57

Yes, because cops are a homogeneous group of white supremacist thugs. All of them. So what if I know some personally? You're all-knowing. You're right. Always. KILL ALL THE COPS!

the police is a homogenous group

Fourth Internationalist

3rd June 2013, 22:59

the police is a homogenous group

No, there are probably thousands and thousands of cops (depending on where you live). They're all not the same, let alone that they're all white supremacist thugs beating up black children and planting evidence.

Ele'ill

3rd June 2013, 23:03

No, there are probably thousands and thousands of cops (depending on where you live). They're all not the same, let alone that they're all white supremacist thugs beating up black children and planting evidence.

their purpose within society is identical

Fourth Internationalist

3rd June 2013, 23:07

their purpose within society is identical

Yes, to protect the ruling class.

Ele'ill

3rd June 2013, 23:10

Yes, to protect the ruling class.

and let's not overlook the systemic methods and peripherals that enable and support this- from the original conception of 'the police' to current

Fourth Internationalist

3rd June 2013, 23:11

and let's not overlook the systemic methods and peripherals that enable and support this- from the original conception of 'the police' to current

Hm?

Ele'ill

4th June 2013, 00:02

Hm?

:confused:

Vercingetorix

4th June 2013, 02:44

hahahahaha I bet

What are you, 12?

Your response to my post was to laugh and deride.

That's a typical tactic. You laugh at me, you pretend my points don't matter. It's insulting, and childish.

I've talked about my experiences and the work I'd like to do, and your response is laughter rather than discussion.

You want to debate me, that's fine. Until then, stop trolololololing like this is /b/ or /pol/.

Ele'ill

4th June 2013, 02:49

What are you, 12?

Your response to my post was to laugh and deride.

That's a typical tactic. You laugh at me, you pretend my points don't matter. It's insulting, and childish.

I've talked about my experiences and the work I'd like to do, and your response is laughter rather than discussion.

You want to debate me, that's fine. Until then, stop trolololololing like this is /b/ or /pol/.

lol do you know why cops talk to journalists and journalists to cops? Are you aware of the relationship between the two? The last thing I want to hear from someone who is a radical is 'hey I talk to cops all the time' I mean what in the fuck how I'm not even the one trolling here with comments from you like that holy shit

Vercingetorix

4th June 2013, 02:56

lol do you know why cops talk to journalists and journalists to cops? Are you aware of the relationship between the two? The last thing I want to hear from someone who is a radical is 'hey I talk to cops all the time' I mean what in the fuck how I'm not even the one trolling here with comments from you like that holy shit

Ah, so you ARE 12. Talking to the police, trying to convince them to be socialists, planting the seeds of doubt in their mind, working to try and convince them to turn against the people who are forcing them to do things that they know for a fact are wrong, that couldn't have any positive a affect at all.

Grow up.

When they talk to independent bloggers and journalists, not the corporatist schills who are journalists in name only, they risk their livelihoods.

In some communities, they risk their lives.

Yet that is what I'm seeing the police start to do.

We have a real chance here to undermine the corporate power, and you want to throw it away. You're a shortsighted fool.

Ele'ill

4th June 2013, 03:26

Ah, so you ARE 12.

no, I'm eleven.

Talking to the police, trying to convince them to be socialists, planting the seeds of doubt in their mind, working to try and convince them to turn against the people who are forcing them to do things that they know for a fact are wrong, that couldn't have any positive a affect at all.

it doesn't

Grow up.

When they talk to independent bloggers and journalists, not the corporatist schills who are journalists in name only, they risk their livelihoods.

there is a relationship between 'independent' and all journalist/news/media and the cops and it involves favors from either side to benefit both at certain times such as front row seats/first call to major breaking news for benign/or positive press

also the 'independent journalists' and media are often the ones snitching to the cops and feds about radical activity

In some communities, they risk their lives.

Yet that is what I'm seeing the police start to do.

We have a real chance here to undermine the corporate power, and you want to throw it away. You're a shortsighted fool.

what corporate power are you talking about exactly and If cops want to defect and flip they have to defect and flip not 'still be cops doing cop things' although personally I probably wouldn't trust them even then- I'm sure there are disgruntled cops everywhere I don't care and by short sighted fool I think you mean valid criticism towards an immediately threatening proposal to shake hands with the state (which isn't imploding despite your wild fantasies)

RedSonRising

4th June 2013, 09:56

If we did this with every aspect of the state/society we could wish and think our enemies completely away!

No I kind of am going to spend time thinking about the idea of propagandizing the police and how impossibly dumb it is and I will of course think of how to confront the state by other means.

tell me, what kind of real material consequences

what about politicians maybe we should drop the radical revolutionary portion of what's influenced us and just become liberal reformers that organize and then ask for things through staged-actions.

because I don't want a nicer police force because no such thing can exist, I want police abolished

so you're saying organize under a banner of inclusion and then when the inevitable resulting revolution comes (which it won't but let's pretend) it is suddenly no sympathy time and those formal cop friendly reformist staged-action organizational structures ......... what do they do besides completely implode?

How are you going to politicize the masses without short-term campaigns first?

How are you going to abolish the police as an institution if you don't have the backing of a significant portion of the population who trusts your political program for one reason or another? Talk of dialectics alone isn't going to do it. Winning Union battles, wage battles, prison reforms, etc. are material consequences people need to taste in order to commit themselves to social change. It's not reformism make short-term gains in the system while gaining momentum for revolutionary social change on a large scale.

A banner of inclusion? I'm simply saying some individual police are willing to help expose the institution for what it is, and that is useful. We don't have to adopt hug-a-cop as a program to recognize and utilize that reality. When shit hits the fan, servants of the structure have to make hard choices. They may not implode, but war veterans and policemen switching to the side of the dissident masses is not unheard of, it's actually a common occurrence during revolutionary struggle.

Why are you even on this forum if you don't believe in any impending revolution?

Tolstoy

4th June 2013, 14:00

Did the puppy give the police a "dehumanizing look".

What I find amusing is that these cops, responsible for the repression, subjugation and brutality against minorities, queers and protestors said that the boys stare was "dehumanizing"

The troubling thing is, no matter what society does as long as it has cops, they will be pricks like this because assholes are naturally attracted to careers where one enforces the rules. While we need stronger regulations against racial profiling and brutality, I always wonder if the only point of the police is to scare the lower classes into submission.

Ele'ill

4th June 2013, 22:35

How are you going to politicize the masses without short-term campaigns first?

I am going out on a limb here and assuming you mean campaign as in project or some other similar wordage although I am really not sure. There are plenty of short-term projects although I don't think politicizing the masses is very realistic in the way you're using the phrase in combination with your post below. Suggesting that unions, reformist organizations etc.. are helping the public engage in or even build towards radical action is dishonest if not a borderline lie.

How are you going to abolish the police as an institution if you don't have the backing of a significant portion of the population who trusts your political program for one reason or another? Talk of dialectics alone isn't going to do it. Winning Union battles, wage battles, prison reforms, etc. are material consequences people need to taste in order to commit themselves to social change. It's not reformism make short-term gains in the system while gaining momentum for revolutionary social change on a large scale.

How are you going to get a significant portion of the population to trust abolition and revolution when the entire framework of your never ending campaign revolves around organizations bent on de-escalation, anti-radical mediation and purely reformist options. How's it working out so far? It isn't is it?

A banner of inclusion? I'm simply saying some individual police are willing to help expose the institution for what it is, and that is useful.

Can you give some noteworthy examples of cops exposing the institution.

We don't have to adopt hug-a-cop as a program to recognize and utilize that reality. When shit hits the fan, servants of the structure have to make hard choices. They may not implode, but war veterans and policemen switching to the side of the dissident masses is not unheard of, it's actually a common occurrence during revolutionary struggle.

There is no revolutionary struggle, stop talking to cops. If global revolt breaks out in full tilt insurrection don't talk to cops. All the evidence in the world points towards cops and intelligence agencies not helping revolutionary movements they tend to do the opposite (all the time).

Why are you even on this forum if you don't believe in any impending revolution?

If you can't answer that question maybe you shouldn't be on the forum.

RedSonRising

5th June 2013, 00:53

I am going out on a limb here and assuming you mean campaign as in project or some other similar wordage although I am really not sure. There are plenty of short-term projects although I don't think politicizing the masses is very realistic in the way you're using the phrase in combination with your post below. Suggesting that unions, reformist organizations etc.. are helping the public engage in or even build towards radical action is dishonest if not a borderline lie.

Unions and other organizations as they exist today are not pushing towards radical actions, but they must be made to. Workers must be radicalized, there are factions within the labor movement that need support, as well as other groups campaigning for short-term reforms that can mean everything to a prisoner or a worker who needs to put food on the table or an undocumented immigrant. Where is the revolution going to spring from if not organized campaigns? Calling for an immediate upheaval of the social structure without roots in any present-day struggle makes you look like a loon to most unradicalized people.

How are you going to get a significant portion of the population to trust abolition and revolution when the entire framework of your never ending campaign revolves around organizations bent on de-escalation, anti-radical mediation and purely reformist options. How's it working out so far? It isn't is it?

Woah, who said anything about a campaign based on a framework of de-escalation and purely reformist measures? You're making odd assumptions out of nowhere. Reformism is a philosophy of working strictly within the system as it is. Pushing for reforms along with a broader campaign of agitation and organization is not reformism. Nor does it have much to do with the simple fact that some policemen, such as the ones providing testimony for anti-Stop and Frisk litigation, are worth talking to.

Can you give some noteworthy examples of cops exposing the institution.

7rWtDMPaRD8

There is no revolutionary struggle, stop talking to cops. If global revolt breaks out in full tilt insurrection don't talk to cops. All the evidence in the world points towards cops and intelligence agencies not helping revolutionary movements they tend to do the opposite (all the time).

Which is why nobody is advocating trying to overtake and adopt the police as an institutional ally. Nobody is foolish enough to think that a majority, or even a significant portion, of the police, will start quitting and joining a dissident movement out of nowhere in the near future .What I'm saying is that there are benign cops who function as little more than security guards for public places or give out tickets, and once their pensions are threatened, might come out and supply important information and show support. That's useful. It's not a focal point of a struggle, it's not something to rely on, but it's useful. Just like the many anti-war veterans being vocal against imperialism.

If you can't answer that question maybe you shouldn't be on the forum.

If I don't know why you don't believe in a revolution, I shouldn't be on RevLeft? All I'm getting from that is blatant irony. Clearly the revolution won't happen tomorrow. But if you don't think it's happening ever, I'm not sure why you're on his forum.

Ele'ill

5th June 2013, 01:27

Unions and other organizations as they exist today are not pushing towards radical actions, but they must be made to. Workers must be radicalized, there are factions within the labor movement that need support, as well as other groups campaigning for short-term reforms that can mean everything to a prisoner or a worker who needs to put food on the table or an undocumented immigrant. Where is the revolution going to spring from if not organized campaigns? Calling for an immediate upheaval of the social structure without roots in any present-day struggle makes you look like a loon to most unradicalized people.

I'm not calling for the immediate upheaval of the social structure although it is on my wish list of course and most 'radical politics' makes you look like an irrelevant loon especially ones that seek to 'politicize the masses' as an actual campaign. What exactly do you mean by 'the labor movement'

Woah, who said anything about a campaign based on a framework of de-escalation and purely reformist measures? You're making odd assumptions out of nowhere. Reformism is a philosophy of working strictly within the system as it is. Pushing for reforms along with a broader campaign of agitation and organization is not reformism. Nor does it have much to do with the simple fact that some policemen, such as the ones providing testimony for anti-Stop and Frisk litigation, are worth talking to.

Your examples of unions and other organizations in your previous post are ones that revolve around such framework as you admit in the first part of your reply here

Unions and other organizations as they exist today are not pushing towards radical actions

your youtube link that I cannot watch at the moment

I meant a series or trend of defecting cops that would suggest talking to cops is a good strategy.

Which is why nobody is advocating trying to overtake and adopt the police as an institutional ally. Nobody is foolish enough to think that a majority, or even a significant portion, of the police, will start quitting and joining a dissident movement out of nowhere in the near future .What I'm saying is that there are benign cops who function as little more than security guards for public places or give out tickets, and once their pensions are threatened, might come out and supply important information and show support. That's useful. It's not a focal point of a struggle, it's not something to rely on, but it's useful. Just like the many anti-war veterans being vocal against imperialism.

No, all cops protect capital. There are no benign cops because cops are the police. Now here you come forth and state that the police as an institutional ally is a poor decision (it is). I'm not going to tell or force people how to engage in struggle but I would suggest they don't talk to cops, ex cops, and if cops want to defect they can carry out their own projects on their own. They should be able to figure out why, if not, are they actually non-cop allies or folks still trolling the blue-line tradition.

If I don't know why you don't believe in a revolution, I shouldn't be on RevLeft? All I'm getting from that is blatant irony. Clearly the revolution won't happen tomorrow. But if you don't think it's happening ever, I'm not sure why you're on his forum.

Criticizing me for not believing in a specific revolutionary strategy by asking me what I'm doing on this forum betrays your lack of insight into other tendencies..

Vercingetorix

5th June 2013, 05:33

Criticizing me for not believing in a specific revolutionary strategy by asking me what I'm doing on this forum betrays your lack of insight into other tendencies..

Oh, we have plenty of insight into other tendencies.

How's this for insight:

WHAT WE'VE BEEN TRYING FOR THE PAST CENTURY ISN'T FUCKING WORKING.

Getting cops on the side of the people WORKS if it's successful.

Best case scenario: the cops support us.
Worst case scenario: the cops don't support us.

The cops have referred to anarchists as "cockroaches." The more we humanize ourselves in their eyes, the less likely they are to be violent towards us. The more likely they are to question their orders and their tactics.

This is coming from someone who's had rubber bullets and teargas fired at him.

And it's bullshit for some keyboard puncher like you to tell someone like me who has been politically active and taking part in actions for 15 fucking years that I don't know what I'm talking about.

When you've been in the streets for 15 years, when you've been where I've been and seen what I've seen, when you've been fighting as long as I have, then you'll have some level of understanding when I tell you that the police are DIVIDED. That there is a way to reach them. That ONE of the tactics we should use is propaganda and engagement targeting the police.

In every succesful revolution and conflict, there has ALWAYS been psychological action targeting the police, attempting to inspire pathos within them towards the movement.

In Egypt, it worked. In Libya, it worked. It's working in turkey, right the fuck now. It worked in Jordan.

In Kuwait, the police saw pictures of protesters helping police officers who'd gotten trapped in teargas. The regime changed it's fucking mind about its policies, because it was afraid the police were going to switch sides.

That can happen here.

You think we disagree with you because we don't understand your "tendency?!"

We disagree with you because you're wrong.

We know you're wrong because you're really obviously wrong. But you're pigheaded about this and you think you know everything, so the only reason I'm continuing to debate you on this point is because other people are reading this conversation.

RedSonRising

5th June 2013, 09:59

No, all cops protect capital. There are no benign cops because cops are the police. Now here you come forth and state that the police as an institutional ally is a poor decision (it is). I'm not going to tell or force people how to engage in struggle but I would suggest they don't talk to cops, ex cops, and if cops want to defect they can carry out their own projects on their own. They should be able to figure out why, if not, are they actually non-cop allies or folks still trolling the blue-line tradition.

This is really the heart of the matter at discussion and I find we don't really disagree. Talking to cops on a regular basis and seeking them out is not what I've had in mind. Even cops coming forward is in itself a fishy business. But if cops defect more continuously, or supply useful information (like the recorded tapes revealing cops discussing illegal quotas for stop-and-frisk arrests/reports, and other policemen sharing information about the pressures to profile and regularly search poor working class people of color), it would be useful. That's all.

Ele'ill

5th June 2013, 14:36

This is really the heart of the matter at discussion and I find we don't really disagree. Talking to cops on a regular basis and seeking them out is not what I've had in mind. Even cops coming forward is in itself a fishy business. But if cops defect more continuously, or supply useful information (like the recorded tapes revealing cops discussing illegal quotas for stop-and-frisk arrests/reports, and other policemen sharing information about the pressures to profile and regularly search poor working class people of color), it would be useful. That's all.

Which is a world apart from what the cop loving anarchist Vercingetorix proposed which was much more than irrelevantly convenient fall out from cops defecting and more along the lines of mass organization of cops and support of their union struggles. Ultimately, there are cops who will abandon the blue-line but it is n insignificant number and the things they are shedding light on aren't new issues.

The Garbage Disposal Unit

5th June 2013, 15:03

This is really the heart of the matter at discussion and I find we don't really disagree. Talking to cops on a regular basis and seeking them out is not what I've had in mind. Even cops coming forward is in itself a fishy business. But if cops defect more continuously, or supply useful information (like the recorded tapes revealing cops discussing illegal quotas for stop-and-frisk arrests/reports, and other policemen sharing information about the pressures to profile and regularly search poor working class people of color), it would be useful. That's all.

So, given that the police premise their power on their ability to carry out violence w/o experiencing retribution, their gang mentality, etc., what is strategically likely to make cops start throwing in the towel? Pretty obviously it's not shit like what started this thread (since it's pretty normalized) or any of the other "excesses" of policing. I'm not saying violence against police will do the trick by itself (and a military confrontation with the police is suicidal anyway), but there's something to be learned from how morale of the US army was broken in Vietnam (the Vietcong were a pretty crucial part of that process).

Ele'ill

5th June 2013, 15:13

Oh, we have plenty of insight into other tendencies.

How's this for insight:

WHAT WE'VE BEEN TRYING FOR THE PAST CENTURY ISN'T FUCKING WORKING.

Getting cops on the side of the people WORKS if it's successful.

Can you provide evidence of a radical revolutionary movement that is sweeping through the NYPD? Wasn't it you who was saying this was happening?

Best case scenario: the cops support us.
Worst case scenario: the cops don't support us.The police are undesirable because they are a violent authoritarian body of people serving the purpose of protecting a state, they have nothing to offer as the police, and that will not fit into the frame work of coherent revolutionary praxis.

I feel like you are trying to make this argument work by using a conventional group of people involved in revolutionary organizing and action and then saying they are cops but the fact is if cops defect and abandon the blue line and stop acting like cops, if they radicalize, they're not cops.

The cops have referred to anarchists as "cockroaches." The more we humanize ourselves in their eyes, the less likely they are to be violent towards us. The more likely they are to question their orders and their tactics.cops think a lot of people are cockroaches and other more racial slurs and by humanize what you really mean is become more colonial and white or at the least monoculture and assimilated into society/empire and I think a lot of folks would disagree with you

hahaha, in relation to your fantasy cop organization scenario, at this point in the timeline of events, the cops as a body are already presenting a demand for people to change. Funny how they're still the police and this is even through the eyes of you, an optimist and their number one cheerleader. :lol:

This is coming from someone who's had rubber bullets and teargas fired at him.:tt1::tt1::tt1::tt1::tt1::tt1::tt1:

And it's bullshit for some keyboard puncher like you to tell someone like me who has been politically active and taking part in actions for 15 fucking years that I don't know what I'm talking about.The post of mine you quoted was a reply to someone else and not to you. The user was suggesting that I shouldn't be on the forum because I don't appear revolutionary and I suggested they expand their knowledge of other tendencies so they'd learn otherwise. The only thing more obnoxious than people talking during a movie are people talking about their activist credentials. How pretentious.

When you've been in the streets for 15 years, when you've been where I've been and seen what I've seen, when you've been fighting as long as I have, then you'll have some level of understanding when I tell you that the police are DIVIDED.no they aren't, are you an @news chris hedges troll?

That there is a way to reach them. That ONE of the tactics we should use is propaganda and engagement targeting the police.no thanks

In every succesful revolution and conflict, there has ALWAYS been psychological action targeting the police, attempting to inspire pathos within them towards the movement.

In Egypt, it worked. In Libya, it worked. It's working in turkey, right the fuck now. It worked in Jordan.

In Kuwait, the police saw pictures of protesters helping police officers who'd gotten trapped in teargas. The regime changed it's fucking mind about its policies, because it was afraid the police were going to switch sides.actually what most often happens and what is happening or has happened in those places is the military defects and helps the people against the police which I believe is happening in turkey right now and the police have a history of working with the most violent anti-social elemenits of society in times of crisis for the sole reason of maintaining order and keeping the state running and protected.

.

You think we disagree with you because we don't understand your "tendency?!"

We disagree with you because you're wrong.Don't know why you are using 'we' because the user RedSonRising took a completely different position than you, one which was closer to my own position. And yes, when you tell someone that they don't belong on a multi-tendency forum because they aren't agreeing with liberal reform and cop apologies I tend to think especially when all that is presented in a question such as 'why are you on this forum' it betrays a lack of understanding as to what my tendency is, the details are clear, you just can't put me in a category.

We know you're wrong because you're really obviously wrong. But you're pigheaded about this and you think you know everything, so the only reason I'm continuing to debate you on this point is because other people are reading this conversation.
how cute the cop lover calling me pigheaded

The Garbage Disposal Unit

5th June 2013, 16:50

"In every successful revolution there has ALWAYS been psychological action targeting the police"

And there has also been intense violence directed against police.
Seriously, 40+ cop shops torched in Cairo.

Get your head out of your ass.

Ele'ill

5th June 2013, 20:00

(Trigger Warning) this was posted in the other thread on Turkey, http://turkishpolicebrutality.tumblr.com/

* I've heard that there are police stations getting torched in Turkey

RedSonRising

5th June 2013, 21:35

So, given that the police premise their power on their ability to carry out violence w/o experiencing retribution, their gang mentality, etc., what is strategically likely to make cops start throwing in the towel? Pretty obviously it's not shit like what started this thread (since it's pretty normalized) or any of the other "excesses" of policing. I'm not saying violence against police will do the trick by itself (and a military confrontation with the police is suicidal anyway), but there's something to be learned from how morale of the US army was broken in Vietnam (the Vietcong were a pretty crucial part of that process).

I think a variety of factors come into play. I think certain segments of the police force, specifically policemen of color forced to profile and harass other people of color from familiar neighborhoods, are more ready to challenge the system, particularly if agitation causes more and more pressure from the institution to act with violence and animosity.

Brutus

5th June 2013, 21:43

"The worker who becomes a policeman in the service of the capitalist state, is a bourgeois cop, not a worker."
Lev Trotski

Vercingetorix

6th June 2013, 07:06

Can you provide evidence of a radical revolutionary movement that is sweeping through the NYPD? Wasn't it you who was saying this was happening?

Perhaps I need to work on my syntax. Is english your first language? Because I never said that a revolutionary movement was sweeping through the NYPD. I'm not sure if it's that I'm a bad writer, or if it's that you have trouble with English.

The police are undesirable because they are a violent authoritarian body of people serving the purpose of protecting a state, they have nothing to offer as the police, and that will not fit into the frame work of coherent revolutionary praxis.

I feel like you are trying to make this argument work by using a conventional group of people involved in revolutionary organizing and action and then saying they are cops but the fact is if cops defect and abandon the blue line and stop acting like cops, if they radicalize, they're not cops.

I love your no true scotsman here. "If cops radicalize, then they're not cops." It makes about as much sense as saying that if anarchists like the color blue, they're Tories.

The post of mine you quoted was a reply to someone else and not to you. The user was suggesting that I shouldn't be on the forum because I don't appear revolutionary and I suggested they expand their knowledge of other tendencies so they'd learn otherwise. The only thing more obnoxious than people talking during a movie are people talking about their activist credentials. How pretentious.

Yeah, I'm a pretentious prick, but at least I'm fucking doing something. And you're actively telling me not to. I'm not content to sit on my ass and wait for change to come to me.

no they aren't, are you an @news chris hedges troll?

Namecalling? I'm telling you that I know the NYPD are divided. The great example is this:

But if cops defect more continuously, or supply useful information (like the recorded tapes revealing cops discussing illegal quotas for stop-and-frisk arrests/reports, and other policemen sharing information about the pressures to profile and regularly search poor working class people of color), it would be useful.

That's my evidence. That's exactly what's happening within the NYPD. Police are coming forward and providing us with evidence because activists here in NYC have been working really hard to convince them that what they're being ordered to do is wrong.

It's working.

The only reason that the police are coming forward is because there is a division between those LT and above, and the rank and file.

If we exploit that division within the NYPD, we can make sure that the police continue to come forward and testify about the illegal activities that take place within the police force.

And that's incredibly useful.

And the only reason it's happening is because activists are engaging with the police.

Edit: And you can call me names like "cop lover" all you want, it wont change the fact that my tactics are working.

PC LOAD LETTER

6th June 2013, 08:24

Well, this thread escalated.

Anyways, this is fucked up, what happened to this kid and his puppy.

Ele'ill

6th June 2013, 22:30

Perhaps I need to work on my syntax. Is english your first language? Because I never said that a revolutionary movement was sweeping through the NYPD. I'm not sure if it's that I'm a bad writer, or if it's that you have trouble with English.

you were talking about a noteworthy rift in the NYPD, one that would offer revolutionary potential for 'organizing cops'

I love your no true scotsman here. "If cops radicalize, then they're not cops." It makes about as much sense as saying that if anarchists like the color blue, they're Tories.Not sure what's so hard to understand about this. A reformed police department meeting the needs of disgruntled beat cops will end up with the police and their FOP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fraternal_Order_of_Police) which sorry is kind of a big deal breaker.

Yeah, I'm a pretentious prick, but at least I'm fucking doing something. And you're actively telling me not to. I'm not content to sit on my ass and wait for change to come to me.Maybe you should stop supporting the institution that actively fights against change.

Namecalling? I'm telling you that I know the NYPD are divided. The great example is this:

That's my evidence. That's exactly what's happening within the NYPD. Police are coming forward and providing us with evidence because activists here in NYC have been working really hard to convince them that what they're being ordered to do is wrong.

It's working.Do you have any actual evidence at all that anything is working.

The only reason that the police are coming forward is because there is a division between those LT and above, and the rank and file.Fuck them all.

If we exploit that division within the NYPD, we can make sure that the police continue to come forward and testify about the illegal activities that take place within the police force.

And that's incredibly useful.How is it a growing trend, how is it successful, what is it successfully doing, evidence.

And the only reason it's happening is because activists are engaging with the police.

Edit: And you can call me names like "cop lover" all you want, it wont change the fact that my tactics are working.They aren't working because at the end of the day there will still be the police.

Anti-White

12th June 2013, 16:52

Getting back to the original incident: Welcome to everyday in my life.

bcbm

12th June 2013, 18:30

That's my evidence. That's exactly what's happening within the NYPD. Police are coming forward and providing us with evidence because activists here in NYC have been working really hard to convince them that what they're being ordered to do is wrong.

It's working.

The only reason that the police are coming forward is because there is a division between those LT and above, and the rank and file.

If we exploit that division within the NYPD, we can make sure that the police continue to come forward and testify about the illegal activities that take place within the police force.

And that's incredibly useful.

And the only reason it's happening is because activists are engaging with the police.

certainly we should always take advantages of divisions in the police. its good to sow discord in our enemies. but these cops are not ready to switch. they are still cops and they are doing what they do to organize a more 'just' policing, which is not at all a goal we should share.