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Supertramp
30th May 2013, 02:01
I used google translator but I think the text is understandable.


"When Marx refutes Keynes and the current Marxist

Marxists, social democrats and other advocates of interventionism always claimed that certain sectors of the economy - particularly health, education and safety, but also the electric sector and telecommunications - can not stand on its free market and free competition because greed and the profit motive are not only incompatible with such industries, but also lead to absurdly expensive prices, which would hurt mostly the poor.
As for the followers of the Austrian School economists always said categorically that it is precisely the search for profit in an environment without protectionism, no privileges, no regulatory agencies and without subsidies which generates high quality services and low prices.

And the explanation is simple: as entrepreneurs, in general, do not like competition, they always show themselves eager to lobby and use state power in their own interest in order to ban the competition and solidify its position of dominance. They do so by means of protective tariffs, subsidies and regulatory agencies that cartelizam the market and prevent the entry of competitors.

But the free market arrangement where there is no protectionism, subsidies and regulatory agencies, is a system in which consumers are controlling the business. On the free market, companies have no choice: either they serve the consumer effectively or close their doors. And serve the consumer effectively means always offering quality goods and services at prices growing ever smaller.

It's just the government - with its subsidies, special privileges (such as protective tariffs and execution of public works to private contractors) and restrictions on competition (through regulatory agencies and bureaucratic requirements) - who promotes monopolies and oligopolies, and consequently high prices and low quality services. So if you want quality services at ever lower prices, you have to defend the free market.

You know who agrees with this? None other than Karl Marx. There is curious to note that Marx understood perfectly that reality. Moreover, he was explicit in demonstrating this. On the issue of "beneficial effects of free competition", Marx agrees with the Austrians and disagrees with all current Marxist and other interventionists. Here's what he wrote in the opening pages of the Communist Manifesto:

The bourgeoisie, by the rapid improvement of all instruments of production, by infinitely facilitated communication, draws all nations, even the most barbarian, into civilization. The cheap prices of its commodities are the heavy artillery with which refute all Chinese walls, with which force capitulation the most obstinate hatred of the barbarians abroad. It compels all nations appropriating the bourgeois mode of production, if they will not ruin it, it compels them to introduce in its bosom the call civilization, i. is to become Bourgeois. In a word, it creates for itself a world after its own image.

In short: in addition to credit the bourgeoisie and its instruments of production - that is, the system of profits and losses - the feat of removing nations of barbarism and bring them to civilization, Marx asserts categorically that the bourgeois mode of production - that is nothing more than the pursuit of profit - generates goods at cheap prices. And not only that: he claims that the system of profits and losses compels all nations to adopt this mode of production, failing to completely ruin if they do not.

Ie, the real problem of the current Marxist and other interventionists who claim contrary to health services, education, security, energy and telecommunications are offered in an environment of free competition, as would be expensive and unaffordable for the poor is that they certainly not read Marx. If you have read, understood not. Marx understood perfectly that the pursuit of profit under an arrangement of free competition leads to the cheapening of products and services, and that this is cheapening "the heavy artillery with which [the profit system] ... compels all nations to take ownership mode production of the bourgeoisie [and become civilized], lest you ruin yourself. "

Unlike recent Marxist who advocate nationalization of various services on the grounds that it would reduce their prices, Marx understood that the profit motive is what really drives down prices, and not the nationalization of these services.
As if that were not enough, Marx also shot a petard against Keynesian fiscal stimulus advocates and state borrowing policies. Marx mocked Keynesianism even before this system was created - something possible because there was absolutely nothing original in the ideas of Keynes.

This is what Marx wrote in Capital, chapter 24, section 6, "The Genesis of the Industrial Capitalist":

The only part of the so-called national wealth that actually is in the collective ownership of modern peoples is their national debt. Hence ... the modern doctrine that a nation becomes the richer the more deeply into debt. The public debt becomes the credo of capital. And with the advent of the indebtedness of the state, goes to the place of sin against the Holy Spirit - for which there is no forgiveness - perjury against the state debt.

As with the touch of the magic wand, [the debt] takes money unproductive procreative power and transforms this into capital. ... [But] the modern fiscal policy ... carries within itself the germ of automatic progression. The overcharge is not an accident, but a principle.

Conclusion

Here, then, the two beliefs that a true follower of Karl Marx must submit: the profit motive in a free market environment leads to reduction of prices, and Keynesian fiscal policies, as well as being a method of enslavement, make money unproductive be seen as illusory capital creates wealth. Moreover, according to Marx, criticizing the indebtedness of the state came to be seen by advocates of state profligacy as an act equivalent to blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

So if you're a Marxist defender of the poor and want them to have access to quality goods and services at low prices, you have to defend the free market. If you advocate that the people have power over companies, you have to defend the free market. And if you are against the enslavement of the people by the financial elite, you have to argue that government expenditures are restricted to the maximum.

Now, if you advocate that the government regulates the market and spend too much, you will be defending the interests of large corporations and financial elites, and will be defending privileges they have on the poor and those they oppress the abolition of competition, with high prices and poor services.

Marx's words."

mises. org.br/Article.aspx?id=1608


The post is non-sense, simplistic and partial. Marx clearly saw problems in free trade and the text does not show this.


marxists. org/archive/marx/works/1848/01/09ft.htm on the question of free trade

communistvoice .org/23cWTOMarxFreeTrade.html - How Marx opposed both free traders and protectionists
A look back on Marx's speech
'On the question of free trade'

"But, in general, the protective system of our day is conservative, while the free trade system is destructive. It breaks up old nationalities and pushes the antagonism of the proletariat and the bourgeoisie to the extreme point. In a word, the free trade system hastens the social revolution. It is in this revolutionary sense alone, gentlemen, that I vote in favor of free trade." ~ Karl Marx

tuwix
30th May 2013, 08:13
When I read those right-wing "libertarian" idiots, I only wait thath they'll say that free market is communism... :D
And during discussions withe them in local forums i was very close to that... :D

Tim Cornelis
30th May 2013, 10:35
It's quite obvious he doesn't understand Marxism no the theoretical and historical context of Marx calling capitalism progressive.

Bardo
31st May 2013, 09:15
So if you're a Marxist defender of the poor and want them to have access to quality goods and services at low prices, you have to defend the free market. If you advocate that the people have power over companies, you have to defend the free market. And if you are against the enslavement of the people by the financial elite, you have to argue that government expenditures are restricted to the maximum.


Mises seems to be missing the point of Marx's work. This is actually a common argument I hear from proponents of the Mises Institute and the Austrian school in general, they debate Marxists as if they're debating liberals. Completely ignoring the concept of class, societal dominance and capital accumulation.

Craig_J
31st May 2013, 09:32
So if you're a true Marxist you have to defend the free market?

Does the author have any idea what he/ she is saying?

cyu
31st May 2013, 09:54
If you want to psycho-analyze this, the fact that demagogues start attempting to co-opt Marx indicates that they pretty much know what's up - that is Marx is gaining in popularity much faster than they are, and they're trying to get in front of the wave, to channel it, rather than get overwhelmed by it.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
31st May 2013, 10:09
Well yes, as Marxists (and I think most non-reactionary, sane political economists/historians/philosophers) would understand that, compared to feudalism, capitalism has been able to generate the production of a great number of goods at historically low prices/easy availability.

The problem is that it also generates a load of shit externalities too, and is based on the exploitation of labour; capitalism may be the leader of the class societies in terms of its productive ability and raising living standards (and should be recognised as such), but it's still a class society.

helot
2nd June 2013, 19:41
On the free market, companies have no choice: either they serve the consumer effectively or close their doors. And serve the consumer effectively means always offering quality goods and services at prices growing ever smaller.

Or you know, make the consumer think you're providing quality products at low prices when you're actually not. There is a thing called lying and manipulating people. Why don't free-market advocates realise this? For people who supposedly know alot about business they don't understand marketing.

RadioRaheem84
9th June 2013, 06:23
Then you have the other side of the coin like done sell out Marxists like the guy at London School of Economics, I forgot his name, but he was booed and nearly thrown off stage during a panel discussion with David Harvey. He said that Marxists and socialists are fools for not seeing the greatness of the free market and are becoming more irrelevant as a result. That despite the people dying of hunger and war, that capitalism is an amazing dynamic system that is actually good. I mean he was taking Marx's words about the dynamism of capitalist production to new heights. He was clearly a sell out.

Anti-White
9th June 2013, 23:18
"I am not a Marxist."
-- Karl Marx

:grin:

Manar
9th June 2013, 23:26
I've had a good laugh over that.

Atilla
14th June 2013, 15:38
If only I could pretend that was an error in translation, and that the writer never actually said that. :lol:

Brandon's Impotent Rage
14th June 2013, 19:20
It is true that Marx opposed protectionism in economics, but not due to any kind of Adam Smith-ian glorification of the market.

He opposed protectionism because it made the necessities, like food, more expensive for the working class to acquire.


On another note, this seems to just be a sign that people are taking Marx far more seriously than they used to.

They keep saying his ideas are dead. Well, obviously that proverbial stake in the heart isn't doing the job, is it?

Sinister Cultural Marxist
14th June 2013, 19:30
This misinterpretation occurs because these folks hold a false dichotomy. In their view, obviously an economic system is going to be based on exchange, because no other society with modern modes of production is imaginable. Therefore, we must analyze the two forms of economies based on private exchange - protectionism/interventionism and lassiez faire. If Marx criticized protectionism and said that Free Market economists understood how to make the the bourgeois economy grow more rapidly, it must be because he was a free market economist. What terrible reasoning this argument holds!

It making this false dichotomy, they miss the whole point of Marxist analysis. For Marx, it is true that free trade allows for more rapid growth of the bourgeois economy, and protectionists miss that fact. However, this economy is still bourgeois. These Mises Institute folks have no understanding of the relationship Marx holds between economic classes and the kinds of economic system we have. For Marx, there is no reason to assume that a modern economy must be based on the exchange of labor for sustenance. Protectionism helps the national bourgeoisie over the international one, but hurts the working class. So does the free market, and it is also based on the exploitation of this working class. For Marx, this means that the free market is just as problematic for workers.

What does protectionism have to do with welfare spending/public health care anyhow? You could have an internationalist, free market economy with modest welfare spending (the UK) and a protectionist society with terrible welfare spending (Russia)

RadioRaheem84
15th June 2013, 00:49
These lolbertarians do that with everything. They hold such idiotic presupposed arguments that it's laughable to watch them fit every single thing out there into their mold.

They even do this with art that is supposed to be anti-capitalist or anti-authoritarian from leftist perspective like 1984. I remember reading that the two biggest watchers of the HBO hit The Wire were left wingers and libertarians. Despite the show's creator saying that the show was a critique of free market capitalism and it's effects on local neighborhoods, libertarians saw it as an expose of how government is inefficient and how it was a critique of Statism.

The funniest was when some Objectivist clown was trying to convince me that the anti-corporate movie Moon was a great anti-Statist movie. When I explained to him that the antagonist in that movie was a corporation, he insisted that the corporation represented the oppression of big government.

It's a really weird state/private dichotomy that they refuse to reconcile. They don't see that State in capitalist country as being part of the system of capitalism. They see it as this lecherous entity that wraps itself around the free market sucking it dry. They see it as two mutually exclusive forces. So when they see us championing for nationalization, they assume we want everything to look like the Post Office. And when Marx says something like he is opposed to protectionism or some form of State intervention in the market, then that must me mean to them that he was a proponent of a market solution!

It's just absurd. These libertarians are bat shit insane. I am not surprised it took a massive backing by corporate interests during the late 70s to get them out and off their dusty academic desks.

ryan1894
22nd June 2013, 09:06
These lolbertarians do that with everything.
It's just absurd. These libertarians are bat shit insane. I am not surprised it took a massive backing by corporate interests during the late 70s to get them out and off their dusty academic desks.

Could you explain why?

Tim Cornelis
22nd June 2013, 13:01
Under the freedom of trade the whole severity of the laws of political economy will be applied to the working classes. Is that to say that we are against Free Trade? No, we are for Free Trade, because by Free Trade all economical laws, with their most astounding contradictions, will act upon a larger scale, upon a greater extent of territory, upon the territory of the whole earth; and because from the uniting of all these contradictions into a single group, where they stand face to face, will result the struggle which will itself eventuate in the emancipation of the proletarians.

Engels, To Free Trade Congress at Brussels (1847)


Could you explain why?

Right-libertarians believe that philosophical considerations and political principle is sufficient to steer social structures in a to them desired direction irrespective of social forces that move in opposite directions. The state did not emerge out of evil, it emerged from the neolithic revolution and its corresponding arising of class antagonisms. The state became the defensive and offensive (oppressive) body of the ruling class, protecting the minority of slave owners against the majority of slaves. The contemporary state similarly protects the ruling class and its business interests. The bourgeois state is convenient to the capitalist class, and they will be reluctant to see it disappear. It was the capitalist class that invited state intervention in the economy on their behalf. Class struggle made the bourgeois state make concessions, though these are often in the interest of the capitalists as well (e.g. universal education means an increased supply of skilled workers leading to lower wages).
The haute bourgeoisie has an interest in maintaining the state and its intervention in the economy, (bail outs, for instance, minimise risks which is beneficial to them) only diminishing it slightly where it impairs their business, and the working class has an interest to maintain social security at decent levels. Only the petite-bourgeoisie has an interest in significantly diminishing the role of the state, but they lack the economic power to form a social force capable of materialising this aim.
So regardless of philosophy and principles and ideals, right-libertarians is unrealistic as right-libertarians do not take into account the social forces at play in society.

ryan1894
22nd June 2013, 13:51
Right-libertarians believe that philosophical considerations and political principle is sufficient to steer social structures in a to them desired direction irrespective of social forces that move in opposite directions. The state did not emerge out of evil, it emerged from the neolithic revolution and its corresponding arising of class antagonisms. The state became the defensive and offensive (oppressive) body of the ruling class, protecting the minority of slave owners against the majority of slaves. The contemporary state similarly protects the ruling class and its business interests. The bourgeois state is convenient to the capitalist class, and they will be reluctant to see it disappear. It was the capitalist class that invited state intervention in the economy on their behalf. Class struggle made the bourgeois state make concessions, though these are often in the interest of the capitalists as well (e.g. universal education means an increased supply of skilled workers leading to lower wages).
The haute bourgeoisie has an interest in maintaining the state and its intervention in the economy, (bail outs, for instance, minimise risks which is beneficial to them) only diminishing it slightly where it impairs their business, and the working class has an interest to maintain social security at decent levels. Only the petite-bourgeoisie has an interest in significantly diminishing the role of the state, but they lack the economic power to form a social force capable of materialising this aim.
So regardless of philosophy and principles and ideals, right-libertarians is unrealistic as right-libertarians do not take into account the social forces at play in society.

If the government is to blame for these problems, why do left libertarians appear to appeal to government as a means to their ends?

Tim Cornelis
22nd June 2013, 15:24
If the government is to blame for these problems, why do left libertarians appear to appeal to government as a means to their ends?

I don't see how what I wrote pertains to the government being to blame. Quite the contrary, the underlying social dynamics of class society are to blame. And left libertarians want to use government as a means to their ends in what way? Certainly not in a way of achieving socialism if that's what you mean.

RadioRaheem84
22nd June 2013, 18:30
If the government is to blame for these problems, why do left libertarians appear to appeal to government as a means to their ends?

How did you gather that from anything the previous poster wrote to you?

Libertarians seem to have the state of their mind 24-7

smellincoffee
16th July 2013, 04:12
Pat Buchanan quoted Marx in a book (Day of Reckoning) as saying he supported free trade, because it meant the uprooting of everything workers held dear and would hasten the Revolution. Buchanan quoted Marx to attack free trade -- I wonder if that's what the Brazilians are thinking of?

liberlict
16th July 2013, 13:53
Even before he became a communist, Marx had been pro–free trade, and he continued to hold this position when he became an economist. If there were to be any interference in the workings of the market, which was leading to the collapse of capitalism, then him and Engels wanted it to come from trade unions and the politically organized labor movement, not from economics professors and German state officials.