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Y2A
8th January 2004, 23:23
I am a first generation immigrant from a working class family. Last time I said this the communist on these boards continuously said how I was being opressed. I am not "opressed" but would like to know why you people think that you are speaking on my behalf when you say such uninformed statements like that.

Hal
8th January 2004, 23:36
I too am a first generation born american, and I hate to break it to you, but you're _not_ being oppressed! Although this may not be true in other parts of the world, you, and I, have access to a first-rate education, a world of information (the internet), and the resources to acheive your dreams. I don't call this oppression.

Sora
8th January 2004, 23:39
He's saying that he's not being opressed. Apparently some people on this board told him he's being oppressed because there have been no non-white American presidents, despite the fact that he is a quite successful Hispanic-American.

Y2A
8th January 2004, 23:40
Nice! I'm just tired of these "communist" in there big suburban homes, rich as hell, telling me that I am "oppressed" and want them to tell me how I am "oppressed".

BTW what country are you from? I was born in Peru but came here when I was only a year old and then was raised in the inner city but through hard work and CAPITALISM my family made it out and just about 3 months ago bought a home in a middle class neighborhood.

redstar2000
8th January 2004, 23:55
...but through hard work and CAPITALISM my family made it out and just about 3 months ago bought a home in a middle class neighborhood.

A heart-warming story. :lol:

Did all those other folks who were your family's neighbors--back in the inner-city--move into the new middle-class neighborhood with you?

They didn't?

Why not? They worked hard and lived under capitalism too, didn't they? Don't they still?

Perhaps it is your view that they are "human garbage" and "deserve" to live "in the shit"...yes?

I can't imagine who on this board suggested that you were "oppressed" (by anything other than your own manifest arrogance). It sounds to me very much like you are one of our recent oppressor-wannabes...looking forward to your opportunity to exploit the crap out of some poor unlucky bastards.

May you receive a just reward for your efforts.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

Dirty Commie
8th January 2004, 23:58
The frequent statements about oppression in the usa against the working class are exagerated, but our labor standards are far below that of the industrialized world.

But as someone in public school in a working class family, our education standards are low, we are given a one sided view of amerikan history, we aren't told of genocide against AmerIndians, or our support of tyrannical regimes around the world.

Y2A
9th January 2004, 00:05
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 12:55 AM

...but through hard work and CAPITALISM my family made it out and just about 3 months ago bought a home in a middle class neighborhood.

A heart-warming story. :lol:

Did all those other folks who were your family's neighbors--back in the inner-city--move into the new middle-class neighborhood with you?

They didn't?

Why not? They worked hard and lived under capitalism too, didn't they? Don't they still?

Perhaps it is your view that they are "human garbage" and "deserve" to live "in the shit"...yes?

I can't imagine who on this board suggested that you were "oppressed" (by anything other than your own manifest arrogance). It sounds to me very much like you are one of our recent oppressor-wannabes...looking forward to your opportunity to exploit the crap out of some poor unlucky bastards.

May you receive a just reward for your efforts.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas
First off RedStar, it was your fellow communist who said I was "oppressed" I did not make this up. And have you ever lived in the inner city? Not everyone "works hard" like you think. Most people in the inner city have thrown there lives away on drugs and gangs. Stop you bullshitting thinking that everyone that is poor is in that position because of capitalism. I understand that the majority of poor outside developed countries are born into the sitiuation and really have no way of making it out unlike in the United States. I did not make this thread to discuss that though. I made it because I laughed my ass off when your fellow communist told me that I was "oppressed" and want them to explain why they think I am "oppressed".

el_profe
9th January 2004, 01:03
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 12:40 AM
Nice! I'm just tired of these "communist" in there big suburban homes, rich as hell, telling me that I am "oppressed" and want them to tell me how I am "oppressed".

BTW what country are you from? I was born in Peru but came here when I was only a year old and then was raised in the inner city but through hard work and CAPITALISM my family made it out and just about 3 months ago bought a home in a middle class neighborhood.
Peru, Do you know how to speak and read spanish?. IF YOU DO, read fabricantes de miseria, its a great book about why is latin America poor and one of the authors is from Peru who curretnly was in exile(in spain) because Toledo(the presidetn fo peru) wants to put him in jail for "Difamacion". Of course im not sure what he said, but I bet the author pointed out that that Toledo is corrupt so now toledo wants to throw him in jail.

I also am from Latin america lived their 18 years and just moved to the states 2 years ago.

Anyway here is a review from the book I am talking about:

Those who create and sustain poverty in Latin America require a certain twisted talent and dubious diligence. The authors show, with substantial success, that the politicians, Roman Catholic clergy, labor leaders, military officers, and businessmen together produce and maintain impoverishment. Businessmen fear the free market and prefer the cozier framework of mercantilism; a professionalized officer corps keeps capable watch over dissidents; labor officials zealously guard a system that protects the incapable and discourages enterprise; the Catholic clergy marches in step with leftist intellectual attitudes throughout Latin America. The authors describe these mechanisms of control accurately and deftly, illustrating how self-serving practices and ideological justification work together to keep the continent poor. The authors offer no solutions; though they might well have mentioned the positive effect that evangelical Protestantism is having on literacy rates, work discipline, and more. A bit of light in a dark place? After reading this book we need to believe there is such a light.
-John P. Farrance
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detai...=glance&s=books (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553060945/qid=1073613460/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-6626317-0592739?v=glance&s=books)

redstar2000
9th January 2004, 02:33
Businessmen fear the free market and prefer the cozier framework of mercantilism

"Protectionism" (or high tariffs on imported goods to protect "less efficient" domestic industries) have been part of the history of most if not all capitalist countries, successful and unsuccessful alike. Both Europe and North America currently have high tariffs on foodstuffs grown in Latin America and other poorer parts of the world. Protectionism can't be a "reason" why Latin America is poor.


a professionalized officer corps keeps capable watch over dissidents

No argument here; the author probably neglected to mention that the worst of them were trained in the United States for that specific purpose.


labor officials zealously guard a system that protects the incapable and discourages enterprise

That actually contradicts the previous point; labor officials--at least radical ones--are generally close to the top of the list for a military firing squad or "disappearance".

The "protection of the incapable" is, of course, an entirely subjective judgment. If you won't hire my brother-in-law so that your brother-in-law can keep his job, you are "obviously" protecting the incapable.


the Catholic clergy marches in step with leftist intellectual attitudes throughout Latin America

That's just wrong. Historically, the Catholic hierarchy in Latin America has been deeply intertwined with the resident oligarchies...indeed, they often have the same social origins. The older brother is a general; the younger an archbishop.

Presently in Venezuela, the Catholic clergy is universally opposed to the populist (not socialist) Hugo Chavez...as are all the traditional oligarchs, of course.


The authors offer no solutions; though they might well have mentioned the positive effect that evangelical Protestantism is having on literacy rates, work discipline, and more.

This one was quite amusing. Work harder, boy, or your ass will burn in Hell!

Pathetic.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

el_profe
9th January 2004, 03:41
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 03:33 AM

Businessmen fear the free market and prefer the cozier framework of mercantilism

"Protectionism" (or high tariffs on imported goods to protect "less efficient" domestic industries) have been part of the history of most if not all capitalist countries, successful and unsuccessful alike. Both Europe and North America currently have high tariffs on foodstuffs grown in Latin America and other poorer parts of the world. Protectionism can't be a "reason" why Latin America is poor.



The authors offer no solutions; though they might well have mentioned the positive effect that evangelical Protestantism is having on literacy rates, work discipline, and more.

This one was quite amusing. Work harder, boy, or your ass will burn in Hell!

Pathetic.

LOL, they are not christians, I think all the authors are atheist. PLEASE READ THE BOOK BEFORE YOU JUDGE THE BOOK, OF COURSE YOU CANT DO THAT BECUASE YOU CANT READ SPANISH, lol.

LOL, look what it says, THOUGH THEY MIGHT WELL HAVE MENTIONED THE POSTIVE effect that evangelical prtestantism..., MEANING THEY DID NOT MENTION THAT, that was just hte opinion of the person that gave the review.

PRETECTIONISM IS NOT PART OF CAPITALISM, lol. you dont know that. PLEASE YOUVE NEVER EVEN LIVED in latin america, I dont think youve visited it so you cant say that capitalism exist in tehse countries. HIGH TARIFFS IS NOT CAPITALISM, Taxies is not capitalism, learn a little about capitalism first.
YOU REALLY HAVE NO IDEA HOW THINGS WORK IN LATIN AMERICA.



a professionalized officer corps keeps capable watch over dissidents

No argument here; the author probably neglected to mention that the worst of them were trained in the United States for that specific purpose.
NO, many of the worse came during the 1800's others in the 1900's. THEY WHERE NOT TRAINED IN THE USA, WTF are you talking about, I think you got that statement confused with the fact the USA helped countries fight the guerillas.


labor officials zealously guard a system that protects the incapable and discourages enterprise


That actually contradicts the previous point; labor officials--at least radical ones--are generally close to the top of the list for a military firing squad or "disappearance".

The "protection of the incapable" is, of course, an entirely subjective judgment. If you won't hire my brother-in-law so that your brother-in-law can keep his job, you are "obviously" protecting the incapable.

LOL. OUT of the largest and i think first Union in Mexico came the leaders of el PRI. That ruled mexico for 70 years.
The guerillas in Latin america had their intelectuals that would infiltrate the UNIONS spreading the communist ideals and they had the guerillas that terrorized civilians. And how does it contradict the previous statement?



the Catholic clergy marches in step with leftist intellectual attitudes throughout Latin America

That's just wrong. Historically, the Catholic hierarchy in Latin America has been deeply intertwined with the resident oligarchies...indeed, they often have the same social origins. The older brother is a general; the younger an archbishop.

Presently in Venezuela, the Catholic clergy is universally opposed to the populist (not socialist) Hugo Chavez...as are all the traditional oligarchs, of course
JAJAJAJAJA, thats wrong. You really have no idea on what happened in Latin America, why do you think that some catholic priest where killed by the military. BECUASE THEY WHERE Communist, they helped spread the guerillas message. LOL, go learn who CAMILO TORRES was, he was a catholic priest turned colombian guerilla figher who died. learn who Sergio mendez arceo and Samuel Ruiz are. The last one is the real brains behind the zapatista movement in CHiapas.
Learn who Marta Harnecker from Chile was/is. She is/was in charge of the catholic youth movement and an admitted communist.

LULA da silva the very leftist president of Brazil has praised the Catholic churched for thier role in Latin american politics.

This is just a one paragrpah review of the book, IF you could read spanish you should read the book.

El Brujo
9th January 2004, 03:41
Worms don't classify as Latin Americans. The second they chose to help the US oppress their own people for their own self-interest, they cease to be Latin Americans in my eyes. That means all Miami Cubans as well as the US-backed leaders and parties in Latin America (most of which flee to Miami when they are ousted).

el_profe
9th January 2004, 03:47
Originally posted by El [email protected] 9 2004, 04:41 AM
Worms don't classify as Latin Americans. The second they chose to help the US oppress their own people for their own self-interest, they cease to be Latin Americans in my eyes. That means all Miami Cubans as well as the US-backed leaders and parties in Latin America (most of which flee to Miami when they are ousted).
you have no idea how stupid you sound when you say that. LOL

You know many of the latin americans that go to the USA are very poor and dont even know about capitalism or even communism, they just want a better life for their family or for themselves.

El Brujo
9th January 2004, 04:00
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 12:47 PM
you have no idea how stupid you sound when you say that. LOL
You have no idea how stupid 99% of your posts sound:

"OMG, everybody knows Stalin was an evil dictator who killed 200 million people... OMG, all muslims are evil and want to ethnically cleanse the Jews... OMG, communists like to eat children and rape dogs... OMG... OMG... OMG"


You know many of the latin americans that go to the USA are very poor and dont even know about capitalism or even communism, they just want a better life for their family or for themselves.

I take it you are referring to the Mexicans. I am in complete solidarity with them, first of all because all boarder states belong to Mexico and were robbed by the yankee bandits in the Mexican-American war, and second of all, because they ARE, as you say, very poor and simply looking to improve their condition, ignorant about politics because of it. I am referring to the worms of the business community, particularly from Cuba and Venezuela, who support US dominance over their country because it will lead them to a better livelyhood than they already have. Also, the US supported dictators that were ousted and exiled to the worm-hole (Pinochet, Losada, etc.).

el_profe
9th January 2004, 04:07
Originally posted by El Brujo+Jan 9 2004, 05:00 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (El Brujo @ Jan 9 2004, 05:00 AM)
[email protected] 9 2004, 12:47 PM
you have no idea how stupid you sound when you say that. LOL
You have no idea how stupid 99% of your posts sound:

"OMG, everybody knows Stalin was an evil dictator who killed 200 million people... OMG, all muslims are evil and want to ethnically cleanse the Jews... OMG, communists like to eat children and rape dogs... OMG... OMG... OMG"


You know many of the latin americans that go to the USA are very poor and dont even know about capitalism or even communism, they just want a better life for their family or for themselves.

I take it you are referring to the Mexicans. I am in complete solidarity with them, first of all because all boarder states belong to Mexico and were robbed by the yankee bandits in the Mexican-American war, and second of all, because they ARE, as you say, very poor and simply looking to improve their condition, ignorant about politics because of it. I am referring to the worms of the business community, particularly from Cuba and Venezuela, who support US dominance over their country because it will lead them to a better livelyhood than they already have. Also, the US supported dictators that were ousted and exiled to the worm-hole (Pinochet, Losada, etc.). [/b]
So youre saying Stalin was not a dictator and he did not kill millions. So yourse saying muslims dont hate jews. Of course stalin did kill millions and was a dictator, and muslims do hate jews, at least most of them.
NO i wasnt talking about the Mexicans.
And look what mexicans have done with mexico, what makes you think California or texas wouldnt be the same crap??

Youre referring to the venezuelan worm and the cuban worms. The cubans that leave just want a better life, I dont know why you hate them, most of them where born during castro&#39;s dictatorship.

In VENEzuela 3.3 million signatures where collected to get an election to elect a new president. So are 3.3 million venezuealns wealthy bussinessmen who support USA dominance, no. They just hate chavez.

Where ae you from brujo?

El Brujo
9th January 2004, 04:28
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 01:07 PM
So youre saying Stalin was not a dictator and he did not kill millions.
Yes I am. Take a look at the millions of threads on that topic.


So yourse saying muslims dont hate jews.

As I am not a racist that makes such cretinous generalizations, yes. Are you denying that Zionists hate Arabs?


Of course stalin did kill millions and was a dictator, and muslims do hate jews, at least most of them.

*yawn*


NO i wasnt talking about the Mexicans.

Who were you referring to, then? I don&#39;t see any Cubans or Venezuelans working long hours under the blazing sun to feed their families.


And look what mexicans have done with mexico, what makes you think California or texas wouldnt be the same crap??

What "crap" have they done in Mexico? Mexico had (and still has, to an extent) some of the best living standards in the "third world" before they became "the backyard of the US" as their UN representative said. It has been known for having relative prosperity and political stability in regards to the rest of the world. Yes there is a lot of poverty, I would know because Ive been there a lot, but that is pretty much a given in a capitalist country.


Youre referring to the venezuelan worm and the cuban worms. The cubans that leave just want a better life, I dont know why you hate them, most of them where born during castro&#39;s dictatorship.

The Cubans are Batistaite traitors who want Cuba to be the US&#39;s "official whorehouse" as it was known in the early 50&#39;s so they can live in gross excess in their own country instead of the US. Real Cubans will not take that shit, that is why they are expelled from the country (and are lucky that they arent simply executed, as they should be).


In VENEzuela 3.3 million signatures where collected to get an election to elect a new president. So are 3.3 million venezuealns wealthy bussinessmen who support USA dominance, no. They just hate chavez.

So your telling me that the CIA-supported coup in 4/11/2002 wasn&#39;t in favour of US dominance?


Where ae you from brujo?

Argentina.

el_profe
9th January 2004, 05:39
NO i wasnt talking about the Mexicans.

Who were you referring to, then? I don&#39;t see any Cubans or Venezuelans working long hours under the blazing sun to feed their families.

Oh, another who fails to see the facts. seems most on this site are divided on that. I wont discuss stalin on this topic.

I was talking about all the latin americans that work in the USA.


QUOTE]And look what mexicans have done with mexico, what makes you think California or texas wouldnt be the same crap??

What "crap" have they done in Mexico? Mexico had (and still has, to an extent) some of the best living standards in the "third world" before they became "the backyard of the US" as their UN representative said. It has been known for having relative prosperity and political stability in regards to the rest of the world. Yes there is a lot of poverty, I would know because Ive been there a lot, but that is pretty much a given in a capitalist country.
[/QUOTE]
Oh yeah I forgot, Mexico is a great country. 80% live in poverty. Other than that its a great country.


QUOTE]Youre referring to the venezuelan worm and the cuban worms. The cubans that leave just want a better life, I dont know why you hate them, most of them where born during castro&#39;s dictatorship.

The Cubans are Batistaite traitors who want Cuba to be the US&#39;s "official whorehouse" as it was known in the early 50&#39;s so they can live in gross excess in their own country instead of the US. Real Cubans will not take that shit, that is why they are expelled from the country (and are lucky that they arent simply executed, as they should be).[/QUOTE]
Batistaite traitors? why? how about the ones that fled to other countries in Latin America? dont you think they just want a better life? YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE EXECUTED, your and idiot. They are not expelled they escape tehir country. Your really fcked up if you say they should be executed.



In VENEzuela 3.3 million signatures where collected to get an election to elect a new president. So are 3.3 million venezuealns wealthy bussinessmen who support USA dominance, no. They just hate chavez.

So your telling me that the CIA-supported coup in 4/11/2002 wasn&#39;t in favour of US dominance?
No, they where going to do it with or without support from the CIA, they want to get that moron out of office, that is why 3.3 million people signed to get new elections.



Where ae you from brujo?

Argentina.

do you still live in argentina?

Loknar
9th January 2004, 06:22
No wonder he likes capitalism, considering what the Maoists in peru are doing.

EneME
9th January 2004, 07:48
Originally posted by el_profe+Jan 9 2004, 04:41 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Jan 9 2004, 04:41 AM)
[email protected] 9 2004, 03:33 AM

Businessmen fear the free market and prefer the cozier framework of mercantilism

"Protectionism" (or high tariffs on imported goods to protect "less efficient" domestic industries) have been part of the history of most if not all capitalist countries, successful and unsuccessful alike. Both Europe and North America currently have high tariffs on foodstuffs grown in Latin America and other poorer parts of the world. Protectionism can&#39;t be a "reason" why Latin America is poor.



The authors offer no solutions; though they might well have mentioned the positive effect that evangelical Protestantism is having on literacy rates, work discipline, and more.

This one was quite amusing. Work harder, boy, or your ass will burn in Hell&#33;

Pathetic.

LOL, they are not christians, I think all the authors are atheist. PLEASE READ THE BOOK BEFORE YOU JUDGE THE BOOK, OF COURSE YOU CANT DO THAT BECUASE YOU CANT READ SPANISH, lol.

LOL, look what it says, THOUGH THEY MIGHT WELL HAVE MENTIONED THE POSTIVE effect that evangelical prtestantism..., MEANING THEY DID NOT MENTION THAT, that was just hte opinion of the person that gave the review.

PRETECTIONISM IS NOT PART OF CAPITALISM, lol. you dont know that. PLEASE YOUVE NEVER EVEN LIVED in latin america, I dont think youve visited it so you cant say that capitalism exist in tehse countries. HIGH TARIFFS IS NOT CAPITALISM, Taxies is not capitalism, learn a little about capitalism first.
YOU REALLY HAVE NO IDEA HOW THINGS WORK IN LATIN AMERICA.



a professionalized officer corps keeps capable watch over dissidents

No argument here; the author probably neglected to mention that the worst of them were trained in the United States for that specific purpose.
NO, many of the worse came during the 1800&#39;s others in the 1900&#39;s. THEY WHERE NOT TRAINED IN THE USA, WTF are you talking about, I think you got that statement confused with the fact the USA helped countries fight the guerillas.


labor officials zealously guard a system that protects the incapable and discourages enterprise


That actually contradicts the previous point; labor officials--at least radical ones--are generally close to the top of the list for a military firing squad or "disappearance".

The "protection of the incapable" is, of course, an entirely subjective judgment. If you won&#39;t hire my brother-in-law so that your brother-in-law can keep his job, you are "obviously" protecting the incapable.

LOL. OUT of the largest and i think first Union in Mexico came the leaders of el PRI. That ruled mexico for 70 years.
The guerillas in Latin america had their intelectuals that would infiltrate the UNIONS spreading the communist ideals and they had the guerillas that terrorized civilians. And how does it contradict the previous statement?



the Catholic clergy marches in step with leftist intellectual attitudes throughout Latin America

That&#39;s just wrong. Historically, the Catholic hierarchy in Latin America has been deeply intertwined with the resident oligarchies...indeed, they often have the same social origins. The older brother is a general; the younger an archbishop.

Presently in Venezuela, the Catholic clergy is universally opposed to the populist (not socialist) Hugo Chavez...as are all the traditional oligarchs, of course
JAJAJAJAJA, thats wrong. You really have no idea on what happened in Latin America, why do you think that some catholic priest where killed by the military. BECUASE THEY WHERE Communist, they helped spread the guerillas message. LOL, go learn who CAMILO TORRES was, he was a catholic priest turned colombian guerilla figher who died. learn who Sergio mendez arceo and Samuel Ruiz are. The last one is the real brains behind the zapatista movement in CHiapas.
Learn who Marta Harnecker from Chile was/is. She is/was in charge of the catholic youth movement and an admitted communist.

LULA da silva the very leftist president of Brazil has praised the Catholic churched for thier role in Latin american politics.

This is just a one paragrpah review of the book, IF you could read spanish you should read the book. [/b]
Just terrible....horrible....I&#39;m ashamed that you are Latino too. You are supporting those who exploit your own ppl....I&#39;m Latin American and everything you have said is trash and you might as well go spit into the face of Peruvian peasants. I&#39;m from Latin America and have gone back many times so don&#39;t give me that "you&#39;ve never been to Latin America" bull shit. Have YOU ever been back? Have YOU ever seen the poverty that capitalism has created?
Of COURSE Latin American soldiers in Latin America are trained at "The School of Americas" it&#39;s in Georgia&#33; It&#39;s a KNOWN FACT boy&#33; Even the CIA won&#39;t disregard it&#33; Google it okay? Look it up in an encyclopedia or some shit...
It&#39;s sickening that you actually SUPPORT the killing of priests. In my country we had many many priests and nuns murdered, even WHITE Americans were murdered by soldiers trained at the School of America&#39;s and they were even put on trial for the murders in front of the international community....I said "white americans" cuz I&#39;m sure that pulls an extra tug on ur heart unlike those Communist dark peasants that were murdered. Even if you don&#39;t believe us, their are MOVIES that were shown Nationally like any other movie about it...the US has admitted their fault in training these murderers and since thats the only way u&#39;ll believe stuff is by being spoon feed by Uncle Sam. Watch "Romero," "Choices of the Heart," or "Salvador."
http://www.uln.com/cgi-bin/vlink/027616862...le=Salvador-DVD (http://www.uln.com/cgi-bin/vlink/027616862822IE.html?ptitle=Salvador-DVD)
^its even in the description&#33; "the savagery unleashed by fascist thugs in El Salvador during the early 1980s with the complicity of the U.S. government. "
ok I&#39;m done...

Rasta Sapian
9th January 2004, 08:48
u r merley a sheep, grazeing on the fields of yankee daller. Allow your shepard, mr. bush to guide you to your journey of freedom&#33;

who ever said exploitation and facism could be this exciting&#33;&#33; :D

El Brujo
9th January 2004, 09:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 02:39 PM
I was talking about all the latin americans that work in the USA.
First of all, Mexicans are a major part of the Latin American workers in the US, so I don&#39;t see how your not referring to them. Second, what&#39;s your point? Yes, a lot of poor workers come here to work and are ignorant about politics. They don&#39;t oppress their own people and are part of the oppressed at home as well as when they move here, that&#39;s why I support them (and because most of them don&#39;t buy into US propaghanda because they are living proof that it&#39;s bullshit). On the other hand, there are the worms.


Oh yeah I forgot, Mexico is a great country. 80% live in poverty. Other than that its a great country.

Have you even bothered to read what I wrote? Im speaking comparatively. I know the US is a lot better off, that tends to happen when you leech off the rest of the world&#39;s resources.


Batistaite traitors? why?

Its self-explanatory. They want to oust a leadership that made maintained Cuba a sovereign nation and defeated a US-backed puppet and install a puppet "democracy." They aren&#39;t interested in the well-being of their country, only to keep their own disgusting "livelyhood."


how about the ones that fled to other countries in Latin America? dont you think they just want a better life?

Extremely few flee to other Latin American countries. Most go to the US, and while it may only be for a "better life" most of them are conditioned by the worm community. Poverty isn&#39;t as harsh in Cuba as it is in other Latin American countries.


YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE EXECUTED, your and idiot. They are not expelled they escape tehir country. Your really fcked up if you say they should be executed.

There are many who are expelled too (mostly subversive political opponents). Yes, I think they should be executed because they actively work to destabilize Cuba once their in exile and create more problems than there already are. Im fucked up? Thank you, that&#39;s a compliment coming from a neo-conservative.


No, they where going to do it with or without support from the CIA, they want to get that moron out of office, that is why 3.3 million people signed to get new elections.

Who wanted to get that "moron" out of office? Definitely not the vast majority of the population (especially the working class). The people who want him out of office are the business elite, traditional ally&#39;s of US foreign policy, as well as people brainwashed by the privatized media. It is a fact that the CIA created the commotion to de-stabilize Chavez&#39;s government. A trend it has practiced in the past 50 years in regimes it consideres hostile and plans to invigorate (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...latin_america_1 (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040105/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_latin_america_1)).


do you still live in argentina?

Unfortunately, no.

Blackberry
9th January 2004, 10:12
LULA da silva the very leftist president of Brazil has praised the Catholic churched for thier role in Latin american politics.

Someone has escaped from the mental asylum:


We (Brazil and USA) agree that &#39;free&#39; trade furthers prosperity and development, contributes to the promotion of entrepreneurial initiative and to the strengthening of the private sector, with positive social impact. We also agree that trade &#39;liberalization&#39; can contribute to dynamic growth, technological innovation, and to individual and collective advancement over the long term. We therefore reaffirm our commitment to fighting protectionism.

Emphasis and quotation marks added.

Source: http://www.brazil.org.uk/page.php?cid=1659

Y2A
9th January 2004, 13:42
Originally posted by El [email protected] 9 2004, 04:41 AM
Worms don&#39;t classify as Latin Americans. The second they chose to help the US oppress their own people for their own self-interest, they cease to be Latin Americans in my eyes. That means all Miami Cubans as well as the US-backed leaders and parties in Latin America (most of which flee to Miami when they are ousted).
I came to the U.S when I was 1 year old. If you consider me a "worm" then you obviously lack basic comprehention skills.

redstar2000
9th January 2004, 13:56
PROTECTIONISM IS NOT PART OF CAPITALISM...

"LOL" -- as seems to be your own main response. Were you to actually read the histories of capitalist countries, both in the 19th and 20th centuries, you would learn that protectionism is as common as dirt.

Of course, the practice may not conform to your "pure capitalist" ideology...but every capitalist country, rich and poor alike, has done it and is doing it.

There is no fucking way you can "blame protectionism" for poverty. Historically, that is a bullshit argument.


YOU REALLY HAVE NO IDEA HOW THINGS WORK IN LATIN AMERICA.

And you do? My turn to "LOL".


NO, many of the worst came during the 1800&#39;s, others in the 1900&#39;s.

Fair enough; we may not, I suppose, hold the U.S. responsible for the military despots of the 19th century or even the early 20th century (other than the ones installed in Central America and the Caribbean by the U.S. Marines).

By the 1950s, I think, the U.S. began to loom much larger over Latin America; the CIA began "cultivating" those military figures that look "promising".

I think it&#39;s reasonable to assume that the U.S. government bears direct responsibility for all of the Latin American military dictatorships after 1960 or so...some much more than others, of course.


LOL. OUT of the largest and i think first Union in Mexico came the leaders of el PRI. That ruled Mexico for 70 years. The guerrillas in Latin America had their intellectuals that would infiltrate the UNIONS, spreading the communist ideals, and they had the guerrillas that terrorized civilians. And how does it contradict the previous statement?

I might rather respond by asking you how your statement supports the previous statement? What does the PRI have to do with the fact that in general union organizers and officials are the targets of military despots in Latin America?

If anything, it seems to me that you at least imply that military despotism is "ok" with you provided that it targets "communist intellectuals" who have "infiltrated unions" and "guerrillas" who "terrorize civilians"?

Somehow, that doesn&#39;t surprise me.


Why do you think that some Catholic priests were killed by the military? BECAUSE THEY WERE Communist, they helped spread the guerrillas&#39; message.

Yes, there have been and possibly still are a few Catholic priests who expressed sympathy with the guerrillas. That doesn&#39;t make them "communists" and doesn&#39;t even imply that they were "spreading the guerrillas&#39; message".

And it certainly doesn&#39;t make the Catholic hierarchy in Latin America "left wing". That is such a monstrously ill-informed statement that your questioning of my knowledge of Latin America is impertinent.

You don&#39;t know enough to have the right to question my competence&#33;

You may well have lived in Latin America--and frankly I&#39;m beginning to doubt that very much. But if you did, you did so with your ears stopped and your eyes closed.


LULA da silva the very leftist president of Brazil...

Just stop right there, please. You don&#39;t even know what "left" is. I suspect that you think Bill Clinton was a "very leftist president".

"LOL"...you are simply an ignoramus. Go back to school and learn some real history before you presume to lecture us on Latin America or anything else.

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

El Brujo
9th January 2004, 16:31
Originally posted by Y2A+Jan 9 2004, 10:42 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Jan 9 2004, 10:42 PM)
El [email protected] 9 2004, 04:41 AM
Worms don&#39;t classify as Latin Americans. The second they chose to help the US oppress their own people for their own self-interest, they cease to be Latin Americans in my eyes. That means all Miami Cubans as well as the US-backed leaders and parties in Latin America (most of which flee to Miami when they are ousted).
I came to the U.S when I was 1 year old. If you consider me a "worm" then you obviously lack basic comprehention skills. [/b]
Do you support what the US is doing in Latin America?

Y2A
9th January 2004, 16:36
Originally posted by El [email protected] 9 2004, 05:31 PM
Do you support what the US is doing in Latin America?
If you mean support for Pinochet, Rios Montt, Opperation Condor, etc... then of course not. But do not think for a second that I side with FARC, ELN, Shining Path, etc... I find it funny how you people think that just because I don&#39;t support these communist groups that I am some how an "imperialist pig".

Misodoctakleidist
9th January 2004, 16:48
Y2K, learn the plural of communist for god&#39;s sake&#33; I&#39;ve seen you say things like "your fellow communist" at least four times in this thread, the plural of communist is "communists" learn it bofore you make another post.

El Brujo
9th January 2004, 16:51
Originally posted by Y2A+Jan 10 2004, 01:36 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Y2A @ Jan 10 2004, 01:36 AM)
El [email protected] 9 2004, 05:31 PM
Do you support what the US is doing in Latin America?
If you mean support for Pinochet, Rios Montt, Opperation Condor, etc... then of course not. But do not think for a second that I side with FARC, ELN, Shining Path, etc... I find it funny how you people think that just because I don&#39;t support these communist groups that I am some how an "imperialist pig". [/b]
Not just that, do you support the US&#39;s economic dominance over Latin America? Do you support it&#39;s constant involvement in Latin American issues for its own self-interest? You don&#39;t have to be a communist to see this as a threatening reality, there are and have been many great leaders who have worked for Latin American sovereignty who weren&#39;t Marxists: Hugo Chavez, Juan Domingo Peron, Jacobo Arbenz, Lula, etc. (and of course, Salvador Allende, a Marxist who came to power through "democratic," supposingly pleasible to westerners).

Y2A
9th January 2004, 16:57
And what do you purpose? That all corporations leave and destroy already struggling economies? Face it, globalization, with all it&#39;s faults, is neccessary. I dispise Pinochet and his reguime but even you must admit that the free-marketers of his reguime are the reason that Chile&#39;s economy rose beyond those of it&#39;s neighboring nations. However, unlike the libertarians and conservatives. I see the downside to globalization, the abuse of worker&#39;s rights, and therefore am for a more regulated capitalist system. I attack both hardcore leftwingers and hardcore rightwingers, I am not foolish or arrogant enough to claim that my side has all then answers and that if everyone agreed with me everything would be perfect.

LSD
9th January 2004, 17:05
And what do you purpose? That all corporations leave and destroy already struggling economies? Face it, globalization, with all it&#39;s faults, is neccessary.

Yes, because the third world countries that have &#39;adopted&#39; neoliberal trade practices are doing the best today.....

El Brujo
9th January 2004, 18:12
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 01:57 AM
And what do you purpose? That all corporations leave and destroy already struggling economies? Face it, globalization, with all it&#39;s faults, is neccessary.
It most-certainly is not. In fact, it&#39;s because of globalization that Latin America is in the condition that it is today. Western imperialists want the third world to remain a backward, feudalistic shithole because it provides them with cheap labor and plentiful raw materials. That is why the government and the CIA do all in their power to maintain the current conditions, weather its through puppet dictators, death squads that keep wages down to 50 cents an hour, or "dirty tricks" such as "loaning" money through the IMF and imposing harsh conditions on the country&#39;s that accept it (knowing fully that they are not able to pay back and making them dependant). If Latin America were to gain political and economic sovereignty, it could further advance on its own. That is why socialism and pan-Latin Americanism are necessary.


I dispise Pinochet and his reguime but even you must admit that the free-marketers of his reguime are the reason that Chile&#39;s economy rose beyond those of it&#39;s neighboring nations.

What about his economic policies made Chile more "prosperous"? What evidence is there that it could not have been with a socialist economy. The reason Chile was on the downfall economically before Allende was killed is because of massive sabotage by part of the ruling class (supported by the US) and ideological conflicts. Under the ruling classes vision, either it prospers under their condition or it dosen&#39;t prosper at all. That is why the west is critical of the USSR. It was a perfect example of an extremely-backward feudalist state advancing and becoming a world power under socialism and without any foreign "assistance." The only reason neo-liberalism has been so "successfull" in the west is because of the use of slavery, land theft and other forms of exploitation. Most certainly not a decent way to prosper and obviously not beneficial to backward economies.


However, unlike the libertarians and conservatives. I see the downside to globalization, the abuse of worker&#39;s rights, and therefore am for a more regulated capitalist system.

And who is to regulate the capitalist system? Certainly not the workers. All the regulation comes from big business and the ruling class, and if they are ever accept such regulation, it is for the purpose of maintaining the status quo, not because they care about their workers. Policies of welfare capitalism are "cookies" in Marxist terms: remote measures taken to make the working class conform and not eliminate the status quo.


I attack both hardcore leftwingers and hardcore rightwingers, I am not foolish or arrogant enough to claim that my side has all then answers and that if everyone agreed with me everything would be perfect.

And what would you describe as the "extreme right" and "extreme left."

el_profe
9th January 2004, 18:36
Originally posted by El [email protected] 9 2004, 10:15 AM

how about the ones that fled to other countries in Latin America? dont you think they just want a better life?

Extremely few flee to other Latin American countries. Most go to the US, and while it may only be for a "better life" most of them are conditioned by the worm community. Poverty isn&#39;t as harsh in Cuba as it is in other Latin American countries.



ONly a Few? :o :blink: :lol: . Of the 38 million hispanics in teh USA 21 are mexicans. That leaves another 17 million hispanics form other countries.


There are many who are expelled too (mostly subversive political opponents). Yes, I think they should be executed because they actively work to destabilize Cuba once their in exile and create more problems than there already are. Im fucked up? Thank you, that&#39;s a compliment coming from a neo-conservative.
yes if you think killing someone is justified because they left cuba, youre an idiot.



No, they where going to do it with or without support from the CIA, they want to get that moron out of office, that is why 3.3 million people signed to get new elections.

Who wanted to get that "moron" out of office? Definitely not the vast majority of the population (especially the working class). The people who want him out of office are the business elite, traditional ally&#39;s of US foreign policy, as well as people brainwashed by the privatized media. It is a fact that the CIA created the commotion to de-stabilize Chavez&#39;s government. A trend it has practiced in the past 50 years in regimes it consideres hostile and plans to invigorate
NOT THE VAST MAJORITY???? lol, even Castro does not believe in chavez, they dont think he is a good "socialist" leader, they would of preferred the vicepresident which is a stalinist. It is known that the cuban goverment calls cahvez EL LOCO HUGO.http://www.revistaperfiles.com/2003.asp . SO 3.3 million people are rich bussinessmen?? NO chavez is just a horrible president and people want him out.



do you still live in argentina?

Unfortunately, no.
then you should be executed because your a traitor to your country, you worm.

el_profe
9th January 2004, 18:55
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 08:48 AM

Just terrible....horrible....I&#39;m ashamed that you are Latino too. You are supporting those who exploit your own ppl....I&#39;m Latin American and everything you have said is trash and you might as well go spit into the face of Peruvian peasants. I&#39;m from Latin America and have gone back many times so don&#39;t give me that "you&#39;ve never been to Latin America" bull shit. Have YOU ever been back? Have YOU ever seen the poverty that capitalism has created?
Of COURSE Latin American soldiers in Latin America are trained at "The School of Americas" it&#39;s in Georgia&#33; It&#39;s a KNOWN FACT boy&#33; Even the CIA won&#39;t disregard it&#33; Google it okay? Look it up in an encyclopedia or some shit...
It&#39;s sickening that you actually SUPPORT the killing of priests. In my country we had many many priests and nuns murdered, even WHITE Americans were murdered by soldiers trained at the School of America&#39;s and they were even put on trial for the murders in front of the international community....I said "white americans" cuz I&#39;m sure that pulls an extra tug on ur heart unlike those Communist dark peasants that were murdered. Even if you don&#39;t believe us, their are MOVIES that were shown Nationally like any other movie about it...the US has admitted their fault in training these murderers and since thats the only way u&#39;ll believe stuff is by being spoon feed by Uncle Sam. Watch "Romero," "Choices of the Heart," or "Salvador."

^its even in the description&#33; "the savagery unleashed by fascist thugs in El Salvador during the early 1980s with the complicity of the U.S. government. "
ok I&#39;m done...
Im not from Peru. do you still live in el salvador?

Yes I went BACK FOR SUMMER, AND IM GOING BACK AGAIN THIS SUMMER.

The poverty created by capitalism? once again I must say we dont have capitalism in Latin america, we have corrupt politicians. I think you should read that book:

Book Description
¿Quién o que es responsable por la pobreza que siempre afecta a una misma clase social, del atraso que continua plagando a América Latina y lo relega a una posición tercer mundista?

Esa es la pregunta que se plantea en el nuevo libro de los autores del bestseller Manual del perfecto idiota Latinoamericano, que como forma de respuesta, cita diversos casos de corrupción, por diferentes grupos en el poder y otros grupos de interés mundial.

Entre los implicados están gobiernos, tales como el de Peron en Argentina, el PRI en México y los Sandinistas en Nicaragua; sindicatos como la inflexible unión laboral que contribuye al desempleo, partidos políticos corruptos e ilegales, y agencias gubernamentales, como el sistema universitario que promueve disentimiento radical con la ideología contemporánea de corrupción y desperdicio que prevalece en la burocracia.

El autor también apunta a los empresarios mercantilistas que distorsionan el mercado con sus posiciones privilegiadas como monopolistas, quienes evalùan el costo indirecto que esta pagando la sociedad por el terrorismo y la guerrilla con el resultado económico de tener que financiar milicias para combatir las amenazas internas y externas.

Tres grandes autores crean un comentario provocador y controversial.


Did latin american gov&#39;s receive help from the USA to fight the guerillas, yes, Did the USA assist in training does soldiers, yes. BUT, guerilla soldiers many where trained in Cuba, and Castro suported the terrorist guerillas, so the USA helped the gov&#39;s fight these guerillas, where somoe of these gov&#39;s bad, yes , But many used the guerilla tactics of kidnappings and killings against the guerillas, This included priest and intelectuals that where helping the guerilla.The USA in some instinces supportd the lesser of 2 evils, but castro supported the guerillas so the USA had to support the militaries.
Are you TALKING ABOUT THE SAME PRIEST THAT molest children, you support that?
I was not for the killing of these priest but many of these priest helped the guerilla do their killings. IN YOUR COUNTRY (el salvador) you had many priest and nuns killed, thank you for saying that, NOW RED STAR can see that in fact the catholic church did support the guerillas and did not support the"capitalist". Although some priest and nuns where unjustifiably killed.

el_profe
9th January 2004, 19:07
Originally posted by Comrade [email protected] 9 2004, 11:12 AM

LULA da silva the very leftist president of Brazil has praised the Catholic churched for thier role in Latin american politics.

Someone has escaped from the mental asylum:


We (Brazil and USA) agree that &#39;free&#39; trade furthers prosperity and development, contributes to the promotion of entrepreneurial initiative and to the strengthening of the private sector, with positive social impact. We also agree that trade &#39;liberalization&#39; can contribute to dynamic growth, technological innovation, and to individual and collective advancement over the long term. We therefore reaffirm our commitment to fighting protectionism.

Emphasis and quotation marks added.

Source: http://www.brazil.org.uk/page.php?cid=1659
Castro wants free trade with the USA, and many of you, beg for the USA TO END THEIR EMBARGO, to promote free trade, does taht mean you and castro are not socialist???

That means castro and all of you are hypocrites. :lol: :lol: :lol:

Lula is more of a socialist, ask anyone from brazil, Are you saying lula never said the statement I posted?? yes he did, go look for it. Go look at his policies. They are not capitalism. to say he is a capitalist is just insane.

"On 10 March 1980 Lula founded the Worker´s Party together with other trade unionists, intellectuals, politicians and representatives of social movements, such as rural and religious leaders."

http://www.brazil.org.uk/page.php?cid=1394

http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%eds_In%e1...o_Lula_da_Silva (http://en2.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lu%eds_In%e1cio_Lula_da_Silva)

el_profe
9th January 2004, 19:19
Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 02:56 PM

PROTECTIONISM IS NOT PART OF CAPITALISM...

"LOL" -- as seems to be your own main response. Were you to actually read the histories of capitalist countries, both in the 19th and 20th centuries, you would learn that protectionism is as common as dirt.

Of course, the practice may not conform to your "pure capitalist" ideology...but every capitalist country, rich and poor alike, has done it and is doing it.

There is no fucking way you can "blame protectionism" for poverty. Historically, that is a bullshit argument.

What??? I am blaming protectionism for poverty, when the hell did i say dont blame protectionism for helping poverty?? Of course protectionism is bad and its not capitalist.


Fair enough; we may not, I suppose, hold the U.S. responsible for the military despots of the 19th century or even the early 20th century (other than the ones installed in Central America and the Caribbean by the U.S. Marines).

By the 1950s, I think, the U.S. began to loom much larger over Latin America; the CIA began "cultivating" those military figures that look "promising".

I think it&#39;s reasonable to assume that the U.S. government bears direct responsibility for all of the Latin American military dictatorships after 1960 or so...some much more than others, of course.
direct? the USA did help these gov&#39;s fight the guerillas that where helped by the Cubans.


Yes, there have been and possibly still are a few Catholic priests who expressed sympathy with the guerrillas. That doesn&#39;t make them "communists" and doesn&#39;t even imply that they were "spreading the guerrillas&#39; message".

And it certainly doesn&#39;t make the Catholic hierarchy in Latin America "left wing". That is such a monstrously ill-informed statement that your questioning of my knowledge of Latin America is impertinent.

You don&#39;t know enough to have the right to question my competence&#33;

You may well have lived in Latin America--and frankly I&#39;m beginning to doubt that very much. But if you did, you did so with your ears stopped and your eyes closed.

No, the catholic church(in latin america) still publically supports a socialist style economy. And many priest did help the guerillas, some even where in charge of the guerillas (the leaders).
Go look for statemetns that CELAM (consejo episcopal latinoamericano) has made, maybe they have a website, anyway they support socialist style economies.

El Brujo
9th January 2004, 19:36
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 03:36 AM
ONly a Few? :o :blink: :lol: . Of the 38 million hispanics in teh USA 21 are mexicans. That leaves another 17 million hispanics form other countries.
And your point is? They are still over half of the Latin American populace in the US. Why do you systematically exclude them? Are they not Latin Americans?


yes if you think killing someone is justified because they left cuba, youre an idiot.

I am not justifying killing someone for leaving, shit for brains. I justify execution for working against their people in the interests of foreign entrepreneurs.


NOT THE VAST MAJORITY???? lol, even Castro does not believe in chavez, they dont think he is a good "socialist" leader, they would of preferred the vicepresident which is a stalinist. It is known that the cuban goverment calls cahvez EL LOCO HUGO.http://www.revistaperfiles.com/2003.asp . SO 3.3 million people are rich bussinessmen?? NO chavez is just a horrible president and people want him out.

Huh, huh, huh. Ok, keep on believing what Fox News and the Miami-mafia run Telemundo tells you.

¡No Volverán&#33; They will not return&#33;

Saturday, Dec 20, 2003


By: Dawn Gable

NO VOLVERAN&#33; This rallying cry embodies Venezuela’s response to the recall referendum that would subject Hugo Chavez’s presidential mandate to yet another vote. It can be heard throughout the streets and read on city walls throughout Venezuela. The chant refers to the previous ruling class who held power from 1958 until the election of Hugo Chavez. To fully appreciate why this particular mantra is a favorite it is necessary to examine what the majority of Venezuelans are refusing to return to.

Over the past several decades it had been sheik, in the international academic and business communities, to fit one’s discourse regarding Venezuela within the framework of the Venezuela Exceptionalism Theory. This theory asserts that in 1958 Venezuela departed from the common path of Latin America and established itself as a stable democracy and developed nation more closely resembling its two most northern American neighbors than any of those south of the Texas.

While the opposition uses this theory’s existence as evidence that Venezuela was a peaceful and prosperous place until Chavez came along, his supporters use it as a yardstick to illustrate where the country should have gone, but they argue, did not go. Who’s right? Lets take a few snapshot views at Venezuela’s history and in particular refresh our memory about the 1958-1998 period.

It is true that Venezuela made a break form its own past in 1958 in regards to political stability. In the 150 years prior, Venezuela had no less than 100 changes of power and 23 constitutions. But was the period from 1958 to1998 peaceful? Hardly. During Romulo Betancourt’s first elected term (1959-1964) there were six military uprisings, a steady stream of terrorist attacks, strong guerilla activity, one narrowly escaped presidential assassination attempt (perpetrated by a foreign government) and 916 political prisoners (Gunther, 1967).

In 1967, nine years after Betancourt took office Caracas was deemed the most expensive city in the world. The wealthy stashed their loot in foreign accounts, as the poor suffered. The infant mortality rate was 56 percent and life expectancy was 65 years. While during this period, Cuba and Brazil had each increased their public education budgets by over 60 percent, Venezuela only raised its own by 7.2 percent; and while Venezuela boosted the highest population growth rate in the world, Cuba and Brazil’s primary-school enrollment growth rate was more than ten times higher than Venezuela’s.

One well-respected author, who was a fan of Betancourt, described the economic gap of this decade as being "as wide as an alligator’s yawn" (Gunther, 1967). A mere 1.7 percent of the population owned 74 percent of the arable land. One fourth of all Caracas residents were prosperous enough to own a car, but an entire third of all Caraquenos lived in makeshift shantytowns called ranchos. What’s worse, 40 percent of these rancho households had no immediate access to water, much less any other sanitation services. The above glimpse illustrates that Venezuela’s first decade of democracy was far from exceptional with regard to the rest of Latin America.

But then came the black-gold years. The oil boom of 1970-78, the further raising of the governments oil revenue shares to 70 percent, and the nationalization of other natural resources provided the government with an unprecedented income. Wages increased, price controls were set, imports were subsidized, and land titles were given out (albeit in a disastrous manner). But how did the government and the moneyed class use this short-lived windfall to secure the future? They didn’t. By the early 80’s, corruption and mismanagement had created a huge deficit and the nation’s GDP plummeted.

The discontent of the 80’s culminated in street riots, deadly repression, and political instability. Like many other Latin American countries, Venezuela had suffered hard economic times in the 80’s and was being brought in line with the neo-liberal desires of the World Bank, which included austerity measures. One such measure ignited the country. Although commonly referred to as "El Caracazo" the uprising of 1989 occurred throughout the nation.

The poor flooded into the city centers rioting and looting for a couple days before eliciting an official response. The response was brutal. In Caracas the military was ordered into the barrios and within a few days 372-2000 people were killed (accounts vary between official and independent sources). This repression left the poor as well as many military men shocked, scared, and seething.

In 1992, Hugo Chavez led a failed coup attempt. His televised surrender speech gave the people their mantra for the next six years: "Por Ahora" (for now). These two words contained the will of the nation, just as today’s NO VOLVERAN&#33; When this will became reality, Hugo Chavez skated into the palace with a 56 percent vote count.

By 1998 the nation as a whole still had not noticeably moved forward from 1967 in terms of social development and in fact was still at par with many other Latin American countries which had had significantly less resources over these decades. According to a United Nations Development Program Report (2000 ) President Chavez was handed over a leading oil-exporting nation where 18 percent of its population were classified in extreme poverty (Unsatisfied Basic Needs) and an additional 26 percent were considered in critical poverty. These poor included 2/3 of the nation’s children under 5-years old.

Forty-five percent of households still had no daily access to safe water and 27 percent had no sewage facilities. There was at least one person with chronic illness in 44 percent of all households and one hospital bed available per 585 residents (although most of these beds were only accessible to the wealthy). Not attending school at all were 13 percent of the county’s youth, nearly all of them from the poor sector, while the drop out rate among those who did enter school was 69 percent. In total, 44 percent of children in 1998 were excluded from the education system.

The 90’s saw Venezuela’s overall Human Development Index decline more than 10 percentage points and the real wage of all workers drop by 43 percent. Urban unemployment was 31 percent higher than in the rest of Latin America (Ellner, 2002) and of all new jobs created in this decade, 70 percent of them were in the informal sector.

Forty years had been lost during which the oil rich nation’s leadership had thrashed about aimlessly leaving the country right back where it had started. With one grand difference: Chavez and company was now in charge.

In the past few years since Chavez took office, the country has struggled forward despite crippling economic sabotage by the business community, an expensive failed coup, a constant media offensive, and international harassment and direct meddling. Early accomplishments of the Bolivarian Revolution are visible in all aspects of life.

Twenty thousand new homes have been built and another ten thousand were rebuilt by military programs called Avispa and Reviba. Three million people received potable water for the first time. One million received sewage services. Two and a half million acres of productive land has been distributed along with credits, technical support and equipment; and 30,000 land titles were given to urban squatters (all titles contain a no-resale clause).

The federal allotment to education at all levels more than doubled in Chavez’ first 2 years and more than one million children were integrated into the education system. Kindergarten enrollment tripled. Nearly 700 new schools were built, over 2,000 were reconstructed, and 36,000 new teachers were employed. The Bolivarian school model was established in 3000 schools, bringing two meals a day, art, sports, and recreation to many children’s daily lives.

One million people are being taught to read and write under the Mission Robinson project. Under Mission Ribas Venezuela’s drop-outs will get a second chance at finishing high school. Two new Bolivarian public universities will be open by spring and others will follow shortly, offering 10’s of thousands of scholarships to the underprivileged through Mission Sucre.

Hundreds of thousands of poor are being attended by volunteer Cuban doctors through the Barrio Adentro Program that provides one doctor per 200 families in slums where no medical facilities have ever existed before. The number of doctors throughout the nation increased by 48 per 1000 residents and life expectancy rose by 9 months. The new Proyecto Simoncito gave support to women and infants from pregnancy to preschool and infant mortality and under nutrition dropped significantly.

The Women’s Bank gave out 42,000 thousand credits to small woman-owned businesses; another 30,000 micro credits were given out to farmers, fishermen, and transportation collectives. Thirty-nine reforestation projects were executed and community nurseries produced 4.4 million plants. Laws pertaining to fishing have protected coastal waters from industrial fishing to the benefit of 200,000 community fisherman and various coastal marine species.

Three new metro lines, three freeways, a railway line, a second bridge over the Orinoco river, the Caruachi dam, a giant aqueduct, and second heavy oil refinery are under construction, creating tens of thousands of jobs. Thirteen cultural centers were built around the nation and the Caracas Theater was re-opened. Two hundred and forty-three "Infocenters", computer salons with high speed internet, were installed in libraries, museums, city halls and NGO offices (1).

Chavez’ term started out on strong economic footing partially due to Chavez-lead, OPEC-instigated oil price increases. From 1999 to 2001 the gross domestic product per capita rose significantly, prices were stable and per capita consumption rose generously (ECLAC, 2002). However, in the past 18 months, lower oil prices, economic sabotage, and constant civil turmoil staged by the opposition has caused the economy to contract sharply.

These ruthless attacks by the opposition coupled with the phenomenal accomplishments of the administration and the citizenry, despite this hostile environment, has served to consolidated Chavez’ support and heighten the determination of the newly empowered masses to move ever onward in an attempt to make Venezuela truly the exceptional country it had been prematurely labeled decades ago. In fact, many Venezuelans, as well as internationalists, see the country as going well beyond being exceptional in Latin America, to become a worldwide model for other nations ready to move forward.

It is already too late to entertain the possibility of a return to the past in Venezuela. The failure of the recall referendum signature drive has confirmed this. Chavez has once again been "re-elected", the Constitution has been re-affirmed, and the Revolution has been re-declared. This rallying cry has now become a reality. NO VOLVERAN&#33;


then you should be executed because your a traitor to your country, you worm.

Aw, how cute. Tell me now, do I actively work to oppress my country for the interests of the US?

el_profe
9th January 2004, 20:03
Originally posted by El Brujo+Jan 9 2004, 08:36 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (El Brujo @ Jan 9 2004, 08:36 PM)
[email protected] 10 2004, 03:36 AM
ONly a Few? :o :blink: :lol: . Of the 38 million hispanics in teh USA 21 are mexicans. That leaves another 17 million hispanics form other countries.
And your point is? They are still over half of the Latin American populace in the US. Why do you systematically exclude them? Are they not Latin Americans?


yes if you think killing someone is justified because they left cuba, youre an idiot.

I am not justifying killing someone for leaving, shit for brains. I justify execution for working against their people in the interests of foreign entrepreneurs.


[/b]
What, No......... You tried to exclude the rest of latin americans that live in the USA.

So YOu do think killing somoene fro leaving cuba is justified.


I justify execution for working against their people in the interests of foreign entrepreneurs.

You know, castro has helped foreing investors from europe by letting them put Hotels and resorts in cuba where they pay the people very low salaries. should he be executed?
he also wants to trade with the USA and is trading with some countries in Euorpe that is helping companies from Europe and traiding with the USA would also benefit american countries. SO SHOULD CASTRO BE EXECUTED. Dont be like your fellow commies who have never answered me this question, answer that question.
If your against free trade, why do you want the embargo lifte, it only promotes free trade.


I gave you a link to the site where i got the info on what the cubas thinks of who they call "EL LOCO HUGO". The article is in the main page , look for it.
www.revistaperfiles.com (http://www.revistaperfiles.com)

As to the 3.3 million, this was reported on all the media stations and I didnt see it on fox or CNN. I got it from here http://www.globovision.com/index.php

Do you know how to speak spanish? do you live in the USA?


Aw, how cute. Tell me now, do I actively work to oppress my country for the interests of the US?

your first statement was: "Worms don&#39;t classify as Latin Americans. The second they chose to help the US oppress their own people for their own self-interest, they cease to be Latin Americans in my eyes. That means all Miami Cubans as well as the US-backed leaders and parties in Latin America (most of which flee to Miami when they are ousted). "
and since you think worms should be executed, you think Latin american that left for a better life to the USa should be executed.

:o :lol: :lol: Your location says california, , lol, what a hypocrite youre a worm that is helping the USa opress latin america, you should be executed, lol.

Osman Ghazi
9th January 2004, 20:36
Maybe you don&#39;t understand that trade exists so that people can aquire resources they dont have. People want the embargo lifted because it prevents them from aquiring resources from the United States. I&#39;m not Latin American, nor have i ever been, but it seems to me like all these cappies who say that they go back all the time are full of shit. First of all, Y2A, you left when you were 1. I don&#39;t see how that entitles you to lecture me on Latin America. Second of all, id be willing to bet money that when you went back you stayed in a hotel in the wealthy part of the city. Besides which, you&#39;ve probably never even visited the rural areas which are the worst off.

Y2A
9th January 2004, 20:45
Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 9 2004, 09:36 PM
First of all, Y2A, you left when you were 1. I don&#39;t see how that entitles you to lecture me on Latin America. Second of all, id be willing to bet money that when you went back you stayed in a hotel in the wealthy part of the city. Besides which, you&#39;ve probably never even visited the rural areas which are the worst off.
Hey I&#39;m not saying anything about being smarter then anyone in Latin American issues, although I do know more about them then your average american. And the times that I have gone back, I do not stay in the wealthy part of the city I stay in Mira Flores with my aunt and cousins. However you are right in the fact that I have never visited the rural areas, however I have seen poverty there, unfortunately.

Anyway this thread is not suppose to be about that. It is suppose to be about why some of those communist thought I was "oppressed" because I was I minority living in the inner city in the United States. I&#39;d just like to know why they think they know more about my previous situation then I do.

El Brujo
9th January 2004, 21:15
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 05:03 AM
What, No......... You tried to exclude the rest of latin americans that live in the USA.
You are a fucking idiot. Quit trying to twist my words around.


So YOu do think killing somoene fro leaving cuba is justified.

I believe killing people who want to help oppress their own country is justified.


You know, castro has helped foreing investors from europe by letting them put Hotels and resorts in cuba where they pay the people very low salaries. should he be executed?
he also wants to trade with the USA and is trading with some countries in Euorpe that is helping companies from Europe and traiding with the USA would also benefit american countries. SO SHOULD CASTRO BE EXECUTED. Dont be like your fellow commies who have never answered me this question, answer that question.
If your against free trade, why do you want the embargo lifte, it only promotes free trade.

Way to oversimplify the situation with lame rhetoric. I promote the embargo lift because it is a violation of Cuban political and economic sovereignty. The US imposed the embargo because Cuba refused to allow US hedgemony and the implementation of the "single-crop" economy the US enforced there to keep it dependant on its purchase of sugar. Due to the devastating effects of the embargo, Cuba is forced to take measures to stay afloat while not giving in to US hedgemony.


I gave you a link to the site where i got the info on what the cubas thinks of who they call "EL LOCO HUGO". The article is in the main page , look for it.
www.revistaperfiles.com (http://www.revistaperfiles.com)

As to the 3.3 million, this was reported on all the media stations and I didnt see it on fox or CNN. I got it from here http://www.globovision.com/index.php

Well, let&#39;s see here,

revistaperfiles: "Revista liberal de opinion sobre Politica y Economia"

Globovision: Has links to CNN en Espanol and BBC mundo

Hm, how is this any less western propaghanda than Fox or CNN?


Do you know how to speak spanish?

Yes.


do you live in the USA?

Yes.


your first statement was: "Worms don&#39;t classify as Latin Americans. The second they chose to help the US oppress their own people for their own self-interest, they cease to be Latin Americans in my eyes. That means all Miami Cubans as well as the US-backed leaders and parties in Latin America (most of which flee to Miami when they are ousted). "
and since you think worms should be executed, you think Latin american that left for a better life to the USa should be executed.

I did not say that, moron. I said that people who work to oppress their countries for US interests are worms that should be executed. There is a huge difference between moving here because your poor and have no choice (as my family did) and moving here as a political refugee from countries "unfriendly" to the US and working to de-stabilize them.


:o :lol: :lol: Your location says california, , lol, what a hypocrite youre a worm that is helping the USa opress latin america, you should be executed, lol.

How so?

el_profe
9th January 2004, 21:48
So YOu do think killing somoene fro leaving cuba is justified.

I believe killing people who want to help oppress their own country is justified.


You know, castro has helped foreing investors from europe by letting them put Hotels and resorts in cuba where they pay the people very low salaries. should he be executed?
he also wants to trade with the USA and is trading with some countries in Euorpe that is helping companies from Europe and traiding with the USA would also benefit american countries. SO SHOULD CASTRO BE EXECUTED. Dont be like your fellow commies who have never answered me this question, answer that question.
If your against free trade, why do you want the embargo lifte, it only promotes free trade.

Way to oversimplify the situation with lame rhetoric. I promote the embargo lift because it is a violation of Cuban political and economic sovereignty. The US imposed the embargo because Cuba refused to allow US hedgemony and the implementation of the "single-crop" economy the US enforced there to keep it dependant on its purchase of sugar. Due to the devastating effects of the embargo, Cuba is forced to take measures to stay afloat while not giving in to US hedgemony.

Oversimplify? no, IF USA lifts its embargo, USA companies will benefit from that. Which is what you dont want.
YOu know you really are retarded. YOU are mad that countries in latin america trade with the USA, but you ***** because Cuba cant trade with the USA, WTF????? If you want cuba to be able to trade with the USA, then dont get mad that other countries also want to trade with the USA,


I gave you a link to the site where i got the info on what the cubas thinks of who they call "EL LOCO HUGO". The article is in the main page , look for it.
www.revistaperfiles.com (http://www.revistaperfiles.com)

As to the 3.3 million, this was reported on all the media stations and I didnt see it on fox or CNN. I got it from here http://www.globovision.com/index.php

"Well, let&#39;s see here,

revistaperfiles: "Revista liberal de opinion sobre Politica y Economia"

Globovision: Has links to CNN en Espanol and BBC mundo

Hm, how is this any less western propaghanda than Fox or CNN?"

ARE YOU RETARDED? i think so. Are you saying their where not 3.3 million signatures?? no, it was 3.6. you sound like a complete moron when you say these numbers are a lie. WHAT LIE, everyone reported the same fucking numbers and they are oficially counting them to see if the have the 2.4 million signatures required to get him out of office. YOUr a moron if you cant admit that these numbers are true.
Is the BBC biased? many here dont think so, as they always give a link to bbc news? If they have a link to cnn.comn they are biased?? WTF.
As to revista perfiles, did you even read the article , its easy to find. Read it first its written by a CUBAN not some Argentinian worm in the USA.



QUOTE]do you live in the USA?

Yes.


your first statement was: "Worms don&#39;t classify as Latin Americans. The second they chose to help the US oppress their own people for their own self-interest, they cease to be Latin Americans in my eyes. That means all Miami Cubans as well as the US-backed leaders and parties in Latin America (most of which flee to Miami when they are ousted). "
and since you think worms should be executed, you think Latin american that left for a better life to the USa should be executed.

I did not say that, moron. I said that people who work to oppress their countries for US interests are worms that should be executed. There is a huge difference between moving here because your poor and have no choice (as my family did) and moving here as a political refugee from countries "unfriendly" to the US and working to de-stabilize them.


:o :lol: :lol: Your location says california, , lol, what a hypocrite youre a worm that is helping the USa opress latin america, you should be executed, lol.

How so?[/QUOTE]
This is just beutifull, first you insult latin americans (especially cubans and venezuelans) that go to live to the usa and call them worms that need to be executed. THEN you say your family left argentina to go to the USA. What a bunch of worms, your family should be executed by your way of thinking.
How is your family any different than a poor cuban family (or person) or a poor venezuelan family or person? THEY JUST WANT A BETTER LIFE SO THEY GO TO THE USA.

Really your a fucking hypocrite you hate the USA, yet your dad decided to move their??? WHY DIDNT HE MOVE TO CUBA? :lol: :lol:
You just lost your argument, jajaja, unless you do want your family executed for being worms that went to help the US economy by moving to the USA. DEATH TO THE WORMS :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Osman Ghazi
9th January 2004, 22:09
There is a subtle difference between a country trading with the Ubited States and the United States having economic hedgemony over a country. The problem is that Americans own all the profitable companies in Latin America and therefore they are able to reap all the benefits whilest the countries of Latin America get systematically fucked in the ass because they have to pay for infrastructure improvements which eventually makes more money, not for the people of Latin America but for already righ American fat cats who sit on their asses all day long and to nothing to merit the rich rewards that they recieve. I would have thought that such a simple concept would have been obvious to anyone with a brain but apparently not.

el_profe
9th January 2004, 22:29
WRONG&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;&#33;

The USA does not own the most profitable companies in latin america.

WOW, really youre really wrong on that.

About 75% percent of the largest companies in latin america are owned by latin america.

Go check out the world richest people. You will find alot of latin americans on that list that own their countries largest companies. Of course many of them made theri money by their gov&#39;s protecting their industies, but that is another story.

In mexico, the person that owns the largest telecom in mexcio(which was protected from competition by el PRI) has a fortune of 7 billion. That company which arguably is mexico largest is owned by mexicans like many other companies.

IN my country I know for a fact the 2 largest corporations where owned by people form my country.

All thorugh Brazil you can see that. Just go to forbes to see the richest people and look for them by country.

Really an uneducated argumetn you just gave their.

Now a company that has bought a lot of the telephone companies in latin america is TELEFONICA from spain, but im sure you never heard of them.

ONE more thing, do all those american tech companies that invest outside the USA exploiting? no, they create jobs, and usually good paying jobs too.

"Intel has been creating jobs outside the U.S. from its beginnings and that won&#39;t change," he said. "It is unreasonable to expect that 100% of our employees would be within the U.S. when 70% of our business is done offshore." http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=stor...d/200418feature (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ibd/20040108/bs_ibd_ibd/200418feature)

Osman Ghazi
9th January 2004, 22:47
About 75% percent of the largest companies in latin america are owned by latin america.
I know for a fact that you just reached into your ass and pulled that out because it simply isn&#39;t true. Besides which it appears that you&#39;ve never heard of a CORPORATION. Sure, Latin Americans often own a large part of them, perhaps even the majority but the fact is that a huge slice of those corporations is owned by Americans and the profits return to them. Sure there are a couple of fantastically rich Latin Americans but they are very few and very far between.

El Brujo
9th January 2004, 22:57
Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 06:48 AM
Oversimplify? no, IF USA lifts its embargo, USA companies will benefit from that. Which is what you dont want.
YOu know you really are retarded.YOU are mad that countries in latin america trade with the USA, but you ***** because Cuba cant trade with the USA, WTF????? If you want cuba to be able to trade with the USA, then dont get mad that other countries also want to trade with the USA
As it has been said, there is a big difference between simply trading and economic hedgemony. Before Castro, the US had virtual control over Cuba&#39;s economy and American business was given priority over the needs of the Cuban people. The US refuses to lift the embargo unless Fidel gives in to them and "open&#39;s up to commerce." Its basically a lose/lose situation for Cuba. Quit acting like a pre-pubescent kid.


ARE YOU RETARDED? i think so.

El sentimiento es mutuo, putito.


Are you saying their where not 3.3 million signatures?? no, it was 3.6. you sound like a complete moron when you say these numbers are a lie. WHAT LIE, everyone reported the same fucking numbers and they are oficially counting them to see if the have the 2.4 million signatures required to get him out of office. YOUr a moron if you cant admit that these numbers are true.
Is the BBC biased? many here dont think so, as they always give a link to bbc news? If they have a link to cnn.comn they are biased?? WTF.
As to revista perfiles, did you even read the article , its easy to find. Read it first its written by a CUBAN not some Argentinian worm in the USA.

Even if that were the case, wow, 3.3 million. Good for you. Am I supposed to care about what 14% of the population thinks? What is the opinion of the other 21 million Venezuelans? Certainly not very unfavourable. Chavez won the elections in 1998 and 2000 by the largest majorities in 40 years (not to mention, he came back to power due to popular demonstrations). You have to be a complete idiot to think most of the people are opposed to Chavez.

PS: I don&#39;t give a fuck about some stupid personal issues between Fidel and Chavez.


This is just beutifull, first you insult latin americans (especially cubans and venezuelans) that go to live to the usa and call them worms that need to be executed. THEN you say your family left argentina to go to the USA. What a bunch of worms, your family should be executed by your way of thinking.
How is your family any different than a poor cuban family (or person) or a poor venezuelan family or person? THEY JUST WANT A BETTER LIFE SO THEY GO TO THE USA.

I am not repeating myself for the 5th time. Read what I wrote.


Really your a fucking hypocrite you hate the USA, yet your dad decided to move their??? WHY DIDNT HE MOVE TO CUBA? :lol: :lol:
You just lost your argument, jajaja, unless you do want your family executed for being worms that went to help the US economy by moving to the USA. DEATH TO THE WORMS :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Whatever you say, bucko. Remember to cut down on the anti-depressants, you wouldn&#39;t want to get a heart attack.

el_profe
9th January 2004, 23:05
Originally posted by Osman [email protected] 9 2004, 11:47 PM

About 75% percent of the largest companies in latin america are owned by latin america.
I know for a fact that you just reached into your ass and pulled that out because it simply isn&#39;t true. Besides which it appears that you&#39;ve never heard of a CORPORATION. Sure, Latin Americans often own a large part of them, perhaps even the majority but the fact is that a huge slice of those corporations is owned by Americans and the profits return to them. Sure there are a couple of fantastically rich Latin Americans but they are very few and very far between.
NO, I didnt pull taht out of my ass.

A huge slice of those corporation is owned by americans?
NO , definetly not a huge slice.

Give me proof ? you cant, because you know thats a lie. What example are you going to give me: Chiquita banana, jajaja. Listen GO TO www.FORBES.com and look for the richest latin americans. LIKE i said most of them made their money through gov. protection of their industry and that is how they got so rich.

Anyway, you have never lived in Latin America so you cant even have proof about that.

Your really insane to think that the USA controls the biggest corporations in latin america.

Blackberry
10th January 2004, 03:53
Originally posted by el_profe+Jan 10 2004, 07:07 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (el_profe @ Jan 10 2004, 07:07 AM)
Comrade [email protected] 9 2004, 11:12 AM

LULA da silva the very leftist president of Brazil has praised the Catholic churched for thier role in Latin american politics.

Someone has escaped from the mental asylum:


We (Brazil and USA) agree that &#39;free&#39; trade furthers prosperity and development, contributes to the promotion of entrepreneurial initiative and to the strengthening of the private sector, with positive social impact. We also agree that trade &#39;liberalization&#39; can contribute to dynamic growth, technological innovation, and to individual and collective advancement over the long term. We therefore reaffirm our commitment to fighting protectionism.

Emphasis and quotation marks added.

Source: http://www.brazil.org.uk/page.php?cid=1659

"On 10 March 1980 Lula founded the Worker´s Party together with other trade unionists, intellectuals, politicians and representatives of social movements, such as rural and religious leaders."[/b]

Are you denying the statement that I posted, where it specifically states that Lula da Silva isn&#39;t any sort of &#39;leftist&#39; at all? &#39;LOL.&#39;

One has to look at what is happening now -- not what happened almost 25 years ago. &#39;LOL.&#39;


Go look at his policies.

Yes, his policies now suggest capitalism, as says Brazil&#39;s joint statement with the USA. &#39;LOL.&#39;

Like Redstar2000 said, you probably think that Bill Clinton was a &#39;very leftist President&#39;. &#39;LOL.&#39;


Castro wants free trade with the USA, and many of you, beg for the USA TO END THEIR EMBARGO, to promote free trade, does taht mean you and castro are not socialist???

That means castro and all of you are hypocrites. :lol: :lol: :lol:

For the record, I don&#39;t support Cuba, nor Brazil, nor any other nation in the world, in fact.

But I defend any country, people, or person in the face of U.S. imperialism.

So don&#39;t lump me in with Castro and Lula da Silva, or anyone else, you arse. I am an individual, not to be lumped in with other&#39;s actions or beliefs.

But if you want to know my observation on Cuba, it seems to me to be drifting towards capitalism.

Oh, and &#39;LOL&#39;, &#39;LOL&#39;, &#39;LOL&#39;.

Osman Ghazi
10th January 2004, 18:41
Dear Asshole (el profe),

I went to Forbes.com and lo and behold, what did i discover but that there was but one Latin American billionaire in the top 50, one Carlos Slim Helu. I&#39;m not exactly sure what you were trying to prove but i don&#39;t think it worked. Want to know what else i discovered, O my brothers? 28 of the top 50 were Americans. Now considering that they represent about 5% of the world&#39;s population, it strikes one as odd that they would make up 56% of its billionaires. Unless of course one takes into consideration that they have made every other nation on earth into either their accomplices or economically speaking, their *****es. That is what is called American economic hedgemony. How&#39;s that for proof?

P.S. I realize that we have strayed somewhat from the original topic but hey, conversations sometimes change topic, so what can you do, really?

Also, near as i can tell South America has 8 billionaires total and Central America has 9 as opposed to the US&#39;s whopping 222 billionaires. Do you honestly believe that they only own American companies?

Monty Cantsin
10th January 2004, 22:10
http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?a...=ST&f=8&t=20973 (http://www.che-lives.com/forum/index.php?act=ST&f=8&t=20973)