Hello

[Theodor Herzl]

I am from Israel. I am not a Zionist in the modern sense, but I deeply respect Theodor Herzl, David Ben-Gurion (who was a Leftist, Atheist, and the founder of Israel), and all of our other heroes.

Now let's be realistic Marxists. You cannot expect an Israeli Jew to be anti-Israel can you? Israel is my nation, it was were I was born, and I expect it to continue its existence alongside our Arab neighbors in peace.

Remember that Israel is the first nation to begin its existence as a Socialist state (albeit semi-Socialist under the leadership of the Mapai party).

To add to that, there have only been three times in history that an independent state existed in Canaan. Israel and Judea prior to the Babylonian and Assyrian conquest. Judea from the 2nd century BCE to the Roman annexation. And then it was passed on to the Byzantines, Persians, Arabs, Crusaders, Turks, and Brits as the Palestinian Mandate before finally declaring independence. It should be added that the term "Palestine" refers to the Roman province of Judea that was renamed following the Bar Kokhba revolt of 136. "Palestine" has never been a state, but rather a province from the Romans to the Brits.

To the anti-Semites that still linger around on Leftist forums, Israel is most certainly not a state of "European colonists."
I have spoken to people from the Far Left and Right alike that have made such arguments.
Prior to the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Israel's Jewish population was over 70% from Middle Eastern backgrounds. The influx following the dissolution increase the Ashkenazim (German/European) Jews very much.
It is thus the case that Israel was, and continues to be, a Middle Eastern country with adherents mostly from the MIDDLE EAST. And please, our children are taught Arabic in school. Do not make a mockery of how such a free and democratic nation handles itself. I emphasize FREE for those who disregard my arguments and push for the destruction of my land. I am myself half Mizrahi and half Ashkenazi. My grandmother survived the Holocaust. She came to Israel a free women in a free state. You Europeans and Americans take for granted the term freedom, as you have never been enslaved. We are finally free, and I will fight and defend my freedom until death. Like our ancestors the Maccabees, who freed our nation from the Greeks, we will die to defend the most sacred of values -freedom.

[Q]

Welcome :)

If you have political questions, you can ask them in the Learning forum. That's why it's there after all!

If you have questions about your account, don't hesitate to send me a PM or ask here.


Now let's be realistic Marxists. You cannot expect an Israeli Jew to be anti-Israel can you? Israel is my nation, it was were I was born, and I expect it to continue its existence alongside our Arab neighbors in peace.
Well, you might want to know Moshé Machover, an Israeli anti-Zionist communist. In the 1960's he was one of the founding members of Matzpen and he argues that the Hebrew community only has a future in the region if it overthrows Zionism.

In the view of Moshé Israel has an either-or choice as it is completely impossible to build an economy that is even remotely self-sufficient: Either it remains reliant on imperialism, as it is today, and continues its Zionist project of colonisation to form a "homeland for the global nation of Jews", or it breaks with Zionism and integrates itself in the Arab world, as a self-determined community, part of a wider economic region.

So, he defends a regional solution. He calls for a socialist union of Mashreq (the Eastern Arab world, including Egypt) out of which the Kurdish, South-Sudanese and Hebrew minorities would have full rights of self-determination in the areas in which they form a majority.

[#FF0000]

Now let's be realistic Marxists. You cannot expect an Israeli Jew to be anti-Israel can you?

Sure can.

[ВАЛТЕР]

Now let's be realistic Marxists. You cannot expect an Israeli Jew to be anti-Israel can you?
The way I see it is that you're not a proper communist until you get called a traitor.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Now let's be realistic Marxists. You cannot expect an Israeli Jew to be anti-Israel can you?

We can, and we do. In fact the first duty of communists who live in bourgeois dictatorships like Israel - or Croatia - is to resolutely oppose "their own" government. For example, I could hardly call myself a communist if I uncritically accepted the claims that "my" state saved Croats from "Serb aggression" and if I ignored the bestial persecution and ethnic cleansing of Serbs in the civil war.


Remember that Israel is the first nation to begin its existence as a Socialist state (albeit semi-Socialist under the leadership of the Mapai party).

Not really. The relations of production in early Israel were thoroughly capitalist. The existence of producer cooperatives is not socialist, particularly not when the cooperatives were intended to exclude Arab labour.


To add to that, there have only been three times in history that an independent state existed in Canaan. Israel and Judea prior to the Babylonian and Assyrian conquest. Judea from the 2nd century BCE to the Roman annexation.

You conveniently forgot the various Canaanite states in the area. And the independent status of the kingdom of Israel is disputed; at times it seems to have acted as a satellite state to the regional powers.


And then it was passed on to the Byzantines, Persians, Arabs, Crusaders, Turks, and Brits as the Palestinian Mandate before finally declaring independence. It should be added that the term "Palestine" refers to the Roman province of Judea that was renamed following the Bar Kokhba revolt of 136. "Palestine" has never been a state, but rather a province from the Romans to the Brits.

Alright, so? Communists support the independence of Palestine, not because of some "historical right" - the number of communists who support the independence of the Kushan is rather small - but because actual living people are currently being oppressed because of their Palestinian nationality.


To the anti-Semites that still linger around on Leftist forums, Israel is most certainly not a state of "European colonists."
I have spoken to people from the Far Left and Right alike that have made such arguments.
Prior to the dissolution of the Soviet Union, Israel's Jewish population was over 70% from Middle Eastern backgrounds. The influx following the dissolution increase the Ashkenazim (German/European) Jews very much.

The first colonists were Europeans, both Ashkenazi and Sephardic, and while there has been an influx of Mizrahi Jews, the state of Israel was founded by European Zionists.


It is thus the case that Israel was, and continues to be, a Middle Eastern country with adherents mostly from the MIDDLE EAST. And please, our children are taught Arabic in school. Do not make a mockery of how such a free and democratic nation handles itself.

It handles itself by bombing civilian areas, starving entire regions and so on. Bourgeois freedom and bourgeois democracy exist in Israel - for the Israelis (I am sure that anyone speaking Arabic will be overjoyed when their attempts to buy land are rejected because they are not Jewish - but in Arabic!) - but that matters little to someone who has to live in the occupied territories or in refugee camps.


I emphasize FREE for those who disregard my arguments and push for the destruction of my land. I am myself half Mizrahi and half Ashkenazi. My grandmother survived the Holocaust. She came to Israel a free women in a free state. You Europeans and Americans take for granted the term freedom, as you have never been enslaved.

Good grief. You do realise that there are members of this forum from the Balkans, from France, from the Netherlands? The fascist regimes of World War 2 targeted several groups, not just Jews.

Not to mention how ridiculous the whole argument is - a completely unrelated regime tried to kill your family, so "your" state has the right to treat the Palestinians as subhuman? No, that simply doesn't follow. That is the same logic that is used by (actual, not imagined) Arab anti-Semites.


We are finally free, and I will fight and defend my freedom until death. Like our ancestors the Maccabees, who freed our nation from the Greeks, we will die to defend the most sacred of values -freedom.

Freedom to starve so that the capitalists can thrive and be patriotic and strangle the Palestinians.

[Sidagma]

I'll second the idea that it's the idea of communists to oppose "their own" bourgeois rulers. I live in the United States, which has a similar history to Israel in that the land was stolen from its indigenous inhabitants to suit a colonial ideology, which went about oppressing them for five centuries in a campaign of genocide, colonialism, and domination that continues to this day. My ancestors, too, left a series of dictatorships -- I'm Greek, Greece too has suffered a lot under Nazi occupation, among other acts of imperialism and terror by various states. That doesn't mean that since my ancestors came here to escape that, that I should do whatever I want and boast of having brought "democracy" and "freedom" to north America's indigenous nations while turning a blind eye to a long, long list of atrocities against them.

As well, the modern Greek state is built on a similar ideology, that of a nation state as some kind of "homeland" to "return to". In the formation of the Greek state, Greeks were uprooted from Asia Minor, who had lived there for thousands of years. Ironically, we Greeks now refer to the process as the "Asia Minor Catastrophe".

It's my personal interpretation that the American identity is predicated on these acts of imperialism, so I do consider myself anti-American, even though I live here. I don't know enough about Israel to weigh in on whether you should take the same attitude towards Israel. But the fact that Israel is one of the more overtly imperialistic states in existence today is undeniable.

That's not to say that Israel is entirely unique; Lenin wrote extensively on how imperialism is one of the logical end-points of capitalism, and so probably every state engages in imperialistic behaviors in service of capitalism.

Therefore, as a communist, my goal isn't to oppose individual states, because the demise of one or two (even if those states are as consequential as the USA and Israel) can only bring about the rise of new imperial superpowers, as we've seen multiple times in history with the fall of Spain, the UK, the Ottoman Empire, etc. The goal is to oppose capitalism, so that imperialism stops happening.

I also want to warn against the idea that a state represents or is equivalent to the people within it. The state of Israel is not all Israelis. The state of Israel is an oppressive institution that is detrimental even to its Jewish inhabitants, if only in enforcing capitalism and peddling what are, frankly, nationalistic, paranoia-inducing lies that Qassam rockets represent some kind of actual threat, etc. I promise you, the state of Israel has lied to you. Can I ask you what your familiarity is with the condition of Palestinians living in the Gaza strip? You've made statements in this thread that point towards ignorance. If I'm wrong in that assessment, I apologize profusely.

Unfortunately, the list of atrocities committed by the state of Israel against Palestinians is too long for me to cover in any depth. But:

A post by tumblr user palestinianliberator, who lives in the West Bank, about the "West Bank Wall", being constructed by Israel in the West Bank, and the effects it has on the Palestinians who live near it. (http://palestinianliberator.tumblr.com/post/50947923839/palestinianliberator-hello-the-west-bank)

Al Nakba, a video series by Al Jazeera English, documenting the Israeli occupation of Palestine (http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/specialseries/2013/05/20135612348774619.html)

Arna's Children, a documentary that follows a group of Palestinians whose lives were disrupted by Israeli activities. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=cQZiHgbBBcI)

I recommend you watch these, if for no other reason than to understand what Palestinians really think of Israeli "freedom" and "democracy".

[Theodor Herzl]

When I say being pro-Israel, I am not saying I support the government of Israel. I am sure just about everyone here expects a Socialist state to be created in your respective nation, but remember that you are not pressing for the destruction of your respective nation like anti-Israel protestors who want to see us annexed by Arabs. You can be an anti-Zionist and still support the existence of Israel, as the nature of Zionism has changed since the creation of the state.
You cannot however be anti-Israel (the nation not the government) without being an anti-Semitic bigot that wants to see millions of people seeking refuge to avoid another genocide.

Nearly all of your oppositions against Israel refers to the government of Israel. Very good points, and so an Israeli Socialist movement should be created to overthrow our imperialist state and create an Israeli Socialist state. Much of our Mizrahi population left their respective Arab and Persian countries to escape the slavery and exploitation pushed on us by our neighbors. You Communists claim to support the struggle of people in our conditions, but never do you advocate for the struggle of the Jew. We strive to make something of ourselves, as all people do, but we are the only nation that is criticized for it! This is perhaps reflective of the anti-Semitic culture of Europe since the Roman times. We have never asked to go to war with anyone. The only war we began was the 6-day-war, which was itself a preemptive strike against people who were about to destroy our country. We want peace, so give us peace already! You act like we want to pay such high taxes to maintain our military.... NO! I have no problem with European imperialists invading our neighbors and forcing them to demilitarize if that is more appropriate for you Europeans (I am not referring to Marxists on this forum, but rather European liberals). Just come to Israel and hear the sirens that we have to hear everyday!

Another overtly racist comment is claiming that Israel is colonizing the West Bank. It should be noted that Jews in the West Bank are not necessarily "Israelis." The West Bank is a place of religious significance to many Jewish people, and thus many want to settle there. These are independent Jews who seek to emigrate to another country. This argument is the equivalent to claims that Muslims want to colonize Europe simply because many from the Arab world, Turkey, and Iran are leaving their respective countries for better lives. Upon leaving, these people are virtually renouncing their ties to their former nations. This status however does not apply for Jewish immigrants who seek to migrate to the West Bank to find better lives than the clustered cities of Israel. We are Jews, not colonists... We are not our governments, but individuals who are looking for better lives. My goodness...

[Theodor Herzl]

As well, the modern Greek state is built on a similar ideology, that of a nation state as some kind of "homeland" to "return to". In the formation of the Greek state, Greeks were uprooted from Asia Minor, who had lived there for thousands of years. Ironically, we Greeks now refer to the process as the "Asia Minor Catastrophe".
Greece was officially recognized in 1830 with the war of independence ending in 1832. The Turkish-Greek was wasn't until 1920, where millions of Greeks were uprooted from their villages in Anatolia. The Greek up-rooting was a result of Greece's alliance with the entente that led to war with Turkey and Bulgaria. A claim that Greece would be better off under Turkish occupation is laughable, although this is what you seem to be pushing at without articulating your point further.


It's my personal interpretation that the American identity is predicated on these acts of imperialism, so I do consider myself anti-American, even though I live here. I don't know enough about Israel to weigh in on whether you should take the same attitude towards Israel. But the fact that Israel is one of the more overtly imperialistic states in existence today is undeniable.

Israel's imperialism in-scope is nothing compared to European and American Imperialism. Our now semi-military dictatorship of the West Bank is overshadowed by the PA's own capable policing authority. You also state this as if Israel wants to maintain soldiers in the West Bank. Do you know how much Israeli tax payer shekels go into military expenditure? Providing security for the PA for the last 45 years has been agonizing, but now we need to make sure a government is created there that will be peaceful towards Israel and Jewish migrants in the West Bank. The base of our Imperialism is in our military thrust in comparison to our neighbors, but that is just logical in our neighborhood.

Therefore, as a communist, my goal isn't to oppose individual states, because the demise of one or two (even if those states are as consequential as the USA and Israel) can only bring about the rise of new imperial superpowers, as we've seen multiple times in history with the fall of Spain, the UK, the Ottoman Empire, etc. The goal is to oppose capitalism, so that imperialism stops happening.


Can I ask you what your familiarity is with the condition of Palestinians living in the Gaza strip?

You do know we don't militarily occupy the Gaza strip right? Issues regarding the Gaza strip can be referred to Hamas and the embargo pressed on the region by Israel and Egypt for terrorist-related activities.

[Marxaveli]

Hi, and welcome to the forum.

If you are truly a leftist, you should be more concerned with the interests of your class, and not your country. Nationalism is reactionary. Just my humble opinion.

We don't advocate for the struggle of the Jew, or any particular race, because communism is based on class politics, and not identity politics. We recognize that some groups of people such as minorities, women, etc suffer more under capitalism than white, straight property-owning males, but to turn our struggle into one of race or gender is to abandon our ultimate goal - the liberation of all working men and women, regardless of nationality. Any struggle for the preservation of a particular state, culture, race or nationality is usually reactionary, and in some cases even fascist.

"In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality" - Marx

[Q]

If you are truly a leftist, you should be more concerned with the interests of your class, and not your country. Nationalism is reactionary. Just my humble opinion.

Lest of all should communists be lining up behind a colonial settler nation. This is the core behind all strands of Zionism.

[Akshay!]

Wait, are nationalists, patriots, etc.. allowed on revleft? :confused:
I thought communists were supposed to be internationalists? At least not supporters of a racist, imperialist, settler colonial state based on the oppression of a specific group and the occupation and control of their land and resources.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

When I say being pro-Israel, I am not saying I support the government of Israel. I am sure just about everyone here expects a Socialist state to be created in your respective nation, but remember that you are not pressing for the destruction of your respective nation like anti-Israel protestors who want to see us annexed by Arabs.

Neither the socialist left, nor the Palestinians, who have experienced the benevolence of the various regional despots and militias, want that. We want a free and democratic Palestine with the right of return implemented in full.


You can be an anti-Zionist and still support the existence of Israel, as the nature of Zionism has changed since the creation of the state.

Zionism had been, and remains, a colonial project that depends on the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from targeted regions. At least in the present, the ethnic cleansing is rarely carried out by direct massacres like in the late forties.

The early history of Israel was nothing like the idealised version that some people seem to believe.


You cannot however be anti-Israel (the nation not the government) without being an anti-Semitic bigot that wants to see millions of people seeking refuge to avoid another genocide.

"The nation" meaning the people, or the state? I can guarantee that not one of the posters on this thread has anything against Jewish people living in Palestine. But the Israeli state is another matter. The state of Israel can't be separated from the Zionist project of colonisation and expulsion; as such, socialists are opposed to its existence, just as we are opposed to the existence of the current Sinhala-chauvinist regime in Sri Lanka.

And why would the destruction of the Israeli state mean the genocide of the Jews? I understand that the ruling class in Israel constantly pushes this narrative, but does it really stand up to scrutiny? There was no genocide of whites when the apartheid regime fell, and no genocide of the Portuguese when the remnants of Portugal's colonial empire achieved independence. While the PLO was still a revolutionary organisation, it had prominent Jewish members. So why do you think the Palestinians want to kill every Jew? That is precisely the sort of demonisation and dehumanisation that leads to the worst excesses of the Israeli state.


Nearly all of your oppositions against Israel refers to the government of Israel. Very good points, and so an Israeli Socialist movement should be created to overthrow our imperialist state and create an Israeli Socialist state. Much of our Mizrahi population left their respective Arab and Persian countries to escape the slavery and exploitation pushed on us by our neighbors. You Communists claim to support the struggle of people in our conditions, but never do you advocate for the struggle of the Jew.

This is simply untrue. Communism has always opposed antisemitism. Consider the situation in revolutionary Russia, for example, where the Bolshevik administration was the only authority to consistently persecute and destroy pogromists. Moreover, I could, if you're interesting, dig up some articles from the Socialist Workers' Party (of America) newspaper, criticising the restrictions on Jewish immigration enacted by America during World War 2.


We strive to make something of ourselves, as all people do, but we are the only nation that is criticized for it!

Consistent socialists criticise all colonial efforts, whether Israeli, Austrialian, Sinhala or Croat.


This is perhaps reflective of the anti-Semitic culture of Europe since the Roman times.

Not really. Our conscience is fairly clear when it comes to antisemitism - we have always opposed it and we will always oppose it. But we will not allow ourselves to be bullied into supporting Israel by accusations of antisemitism.


We have never asked to go to war with anyone. The only war we began was the 6-day-war, which was itself a preemptive strike against people who were about to destroy our country.

Again, you forget the decades of horrifying sectarian violence in the Mandate of Palestine, which included ethnic cleansing and massacres by both sides.


We want peace, so give us peace already!

But no one can "give you" peace. The Israeli state needs to be either defeated by a revolutionary Palestinian movement, or subverted by its own proletariat, or both.


Another overtly racist comment is claiming that Israel is colonizing the West Bank. It should be noted that Jews in the West Bank are not necessarily "Israelis." The West Bank is a place of religious significance to many Jewish people, and thus many want to settle there. These are independent Jews who seek to emigrate to another country.

Israel supplies these "independent" Jews with military protection, arms their militias, builds walls around them that carve up the West Bank, assists in their exploitation of water resources etc.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

We want peace, so give us peace already!

Didn't 80% of the Israeli population vote in favour of apartheid in a poll last year? And what about firing white phosphorus at dispossessed Palestinians? Jewish Kids throwing rocks at Palestinian children? Racist pigs using dated religious scriptures and a history of ethnic cleansing to justify ethnic cleansing!? That's totally 'peaceful' aye.

Fuck this nationalist, faux-peace posturing. When you do not take sides in a scenario of oppression, you have already sided with the oppressors.

[Orange Juche]

The way I see it is that you're not a proper communist until you get called a traitor.

Ha! I guess it is part of the rite of passage into becoming a red. :lol:

[Goblin]

Please get the fuck off this site

[Theodor Herzl]

"In the national struggles of the proletarians of the different countries, they point out and bring to front the common interests of the entire proletariat, independently of all nationality" - Marx

You should not abstract Marx's hopes for humanity with his real materialist outlook on history. Nations were created for a reason, and that reason is for social configuration to maintain class relations with advancements in the means of production. I cannot imagine a condition in which all nations would dissolve simultaneously, simply because production is so greatly based on nationalism and the like.

Ordinarily I am fine with arguments like this, but I am afraid Left Fascists that are prevalent on this forum will accept this argument yet still wish for the destruction of Israel and a creation of Palestine in its place.

Your program doesn't wish for such a replacement, rather a destruction of such distinctions themselves, but when we fast forward to arguments by Semendyaev, we see clear support for the Palestinian nationalist movement.


Neither the socialist left, nor the Palestinians, who have experienced the benevolence of the various regional despots and militias, want that. We want a free and democratic Palestine with the right of return implemented in full.
Israel wants that too. However despotism exists were there should be freedom.


Zionism had been, and remains, a colonial project that depends on the ethnic cleansing of Arabs from targeted regions. At least in the present, the ethnic cleansing is rarely carried out by direct massacres like in the late forties.Zionism is dead. Israeli patriotism is the trend of today. Israel has never taken upon a policy of ethnic cleansing. I have myself been to many Arab villages in Israel and around Jerusalem. I see people who are freely able to be active in their respective areas. They are even allowed to vote in our Knesset elections.


And why would the destruction of the Israeli state mean the genocide of the Jews?You stated that you don't support the destruction of Israel earlier, but now you are showing support for such a thing.
The narrative can be answered with plain logic why Jewish people don't want to be made subject people. Why might Bosnia not allow itself to be annexed by Serbia, for Republika Srpska controls half of the country? Pure logic my friend, as Bosnians seek self-determination and not exploitation in a Serb-led state. The same goes for Jews, who wish for self-determination.


Consistent socialists criticise all colonial efforts, whether Israeli, Austrialian, Sinhala or Croat."Colonial efforts" just refers to plain Jewish civilians looking for better lives in the West Bank. This is an overtly racist comment, because you are referring to all Jews as if they are Israeli or drones of the Israeli government.


we have always opposed it and we will always oppose it
You shouldn't say "always" when referring to Europe. Especially now when the far right is on the rise and has passed the far left in most countries.


Again, you forget the decades of horrifying sectarian violence in the Mandate of Palestine, which included ethnic cleansing and massacres by both sides.Until the mid to late '40's, there was relative peace in the Mandate. In fact, the real bloodshed didn't begin until 1947, where nearly 1,000 people died in riots across the territory.


But no one can "give you" peace. The Israeli state needs to be either defeated by a revolutionary Palestinian movement, or subverted by its own proletariat, or both.Defeat is never an option for any nation. The whole citizenry of Israel will be armed to defend their homes before the Arabs are able to proclaim a state there. Jewish resilience has been a trend for our people since the Maccabees.


Israel supplies these "independent" Jews with military protection, arms their militias, builds walls around them that carve up the West Bank, assists in their exploitation of water resources etc. This is referred to as humanitarian aid, seeing that those communities are especially targeted. The state of Israel was created on a promise to the Jews of the world that no Jew would ever go unprotected again in the face of destruction. The state will always live up to that promise, and it currently continues to live on that promise in the question of migration in the West Bank.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Please get the fuck off this site

Don't be mean.

And welcome, Theodor, to RevLeft! :D

[Sasha]

moved to OI as OP is restricted

[Theodor Herzl]

That is okay I guess. I shouldn't expect better treatment from a Leftist forum. Although wasn't this forum supposedly created by a Zionist (Edelweiss)?

I just wish my restriction didn't boil down to a hello, an introduction to the country I live, and why I believe my country should continue to exist rather than being replaced by an imperialist regime. I didn't even get a chance to discuss other things...

I also suppose the clustering of likes for users who are for the destruction of Israel suggests that most users on here are generally for the destruction of my country. It is such a shame that the Left has taken up the legacy left by the Fascists.

[Fourth Internationalist]

That is okay I guess. I shouldn't expect better treatment from a Leftist forum.

I just wish my restriction didn't boil down to a hello, an introduction to the country I live, and why I believe my country should continue to exist rather than being replaced by an imperialist regime. I didn't even get a chance to discuss other things...

You were not restricted for wanting Israel to exist independently rather than under an imperialist regime (who said that?). You were restricted for defending the Israeli State, a capitalit state, from accusations of oppression towards the Palestinians.

[Theodor Herzl]

You were not restricted for wanting Israel to exist independently rather than under an imperialist regime (who said that?). You were restricted for defending the Israeli State, a capitalit state, from accusations of oppression towards the Palestinians.

You don't seem to have a solid understanding of logic, nor how my argument was developed into what you suggest based on the nature of the arguments by other users. The premise of one argument led from supporting an independent program to what you are suggesting at the end. Only in that fashion would my argument have been wholly sound. This is regrettable, but I cannot expect the admins on this forum to have a quality education in logic as we are offered in my country.

[Theodor Herzl]

I ask that my account be terminated seeing as I will not be returning to this forum.

For the sake of humanity, please avoid the mistakes of the twentieth century before moving forward with your hate-based ideologies.

[Akshay!]

before moving forward with your hate-based ideologies.

You support a regime which is based on the most vicious form of racism and settler colonialism and we're the ones who have "hate-based" ideologies??


I ask that my account be terminated seeing as I will not be returning to this forum.

The single best sentence you've written since joining revleft.

[Ele'ill]

I ask that my account be terminated seeing as I will not be returning to this forum.

how about just not returning to the forum



For the sake of humanity, please avoid the mistakes of the twentieth century before moving forward with your hate-based ideologies.

so it's ok to keep the hate though just avoid the mistakes is what you're saying.. right?

[Le Socialiste]

That is okay I guess. I shouldn't expect better treatment from a Leftist forum. Although wasn't this forum supposedly created by a Zionist (Edelweiss)?

I'm a little more interested in how you know about Edelweiss (and the accusations that have been leveled against him in the past)? You've only been here a few days, how would you have any knowledge about this so quickly - unless, of course, you're not really a new user...

[slum]

with hertzl as a nick i have a real hard time believing this guy is not a troll

[Comrade Nasser]

I as an Arab, former christian, and what i'd like to think a pretty cool guy harbor you no ill-feelings. I personally don't think governments necessarily speak for the people at large.

Is there a reason you got restricted? Lmao.

[Fourth Internationalist]

This is regrettable, but I cannot expect the admins on this forum to have a quality education in logic as we are offered in my country

Because your country is better than all the others, right? :rolleyes:

[Fourth Internationalist]

I ask that my account be terminated seeing as I will not be returning to this forum.

For the sake of humanity, please avoid the mistakes of the twentieth century before moving forward with your hate-based ideologies.

Are you even a leftist, at all?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Ordinarily I am fine with arguments like this, but I am afraid Left Fascists that are prevalent on this forum will accept this argument yet still wish for the destruction of Israel and a creation of Palestine in its place.

Your program doesn't wish for such a replacement, rather a destruction of such distinctions themselves, but when we fast forward to arguments by Semendyaev, we see clear support for the Palestinian nationalist movement.

I support Palestinian national liberation, as does every consistent Leninist. Leninists support national liberation of all nations that are presently enslaved by bourgeois dictatorships; whether the nation in question is Palestinian, Berber, Tamil or whatnot. I do not support Palestinian chauvinism, just as I don't support Tamil chauvinism etc. You seem to have convinced yourself that the socialist movement opposes Zionism due to antisemitism. I suggest that, if you truly believe this, you stop, take a deep breath, and then actually acquaint yourself with the relevant literature before you make an arse out of yourself. Like I said, Trotskyist groups were protesting restrictions on Jewish immigration during the Second World War. Is that what antisemites do? The PLO included prominent Jewish members. The Bolshevik government put an end to the persecution of Jews several times. And so on and so on - yet you want us to believe that all of leftism, except the cowardly pro-Zionist section, is antisemitic!


Israel wants that too.

Well, their methods of achieving this are curious to say the least. Currently, over half of Palestine is occupied, subjected to sporadic military incursions, divided by walls and checkpoints etc. etc.


Zionism is dead. Israeli patriotism is the trend of today. Israel has never taken upon a policy of ethnic cleansing. I have myself been to many Arab villages in Israel and around Jerusalem. I see people who are freely able to be active in their respective areas. They are even allowed to vote in our Knesset elections.

Oh, Israel lets its own citizens vote? How noble. And a policy of ethnic cleansing has existed since the first days of the Jewish agency, as the case of Deir Yassin attests to, if the Palestinian refugees from the conflict were not proof enough. Even today, Palestinians are evicted from their homes under the most Hellerian "security" pretexts.


You stated that you don't support the destruction of Israel earlier, but now you are showing support for such a thing.

I don't support the annexation of Israel to any of the existing Arab states, certainly. Again, most socialists support a free, democratic Palestine with the right of return implemented, not some sort of Greater Syria or Jordan.


The narrative can be answered with plain logic why Jewish people don't want to be made subject people.

And what makes you think the Jews would be a "subject people"? But by all means, if you think an independent, democratic (and that implies that there should be no racist laws restricting non-Jewish inhabitants) Jewish republic can exist on land that was not seized from the plebeian Arabs, fair enough. I doubt this state could sustain itself, though, and it would most likely be forced into union with its neighbours.


Why might Bosnia not allow itself to be annexed by Serbia, for Republika Srpska controls half of the country? Pure logic my friend, as Bosnians seek self-determination and not exploitation in a Serb-led state.

And that is their prerogative. Just as self-determination is a prerogative of the Serb population of Bosnia. But neither group has the right to seize new territories for itself through ethnic cleansing and colonisation.


"Colonial efforts" just refers to plain Jewish civilians looking for better lives in the West Bank. This is an overtly racist comment, because you are referring to all Jews as if they are Israeli or drones of the Israeli government.

I am referring to people backed by the Israeli state, for clear political reasons, as instruments of Israeli policy. Their Jewish nationality is irrelevant. Israel could be colonising the West Banks with the Druze, the Berbers or the Inuits, but the nature of the colonial enterprise would not change. And of course Jews like Ilan Halevi are not "drones of the Israeli government".


You shouldn't say "always" when referring to Europe. Especially now when the far right is on the rise and has passed the far left in most countries.

How is that the fault of the socialist left?


Until the mid to late '40's, there was relative peace in the Mandate. In fact, the real bloodshed didn't begin until 1947, where nearly 1,000 people died in riots across the territory.

Well, if you want to call the Jaffa, Hebron pogroms, the Irgun attacks on Arab civilians and so on peaceful then yes, there was peace.


Defeat is never an option for any nation.

Defeat is always an option, and in the case of bourgeois dictatorships, agitating for their defeat is the duty of every communist.


This is referred to as humanitarian aid, seeing that those communities are especially targeted. The state of Israel was created on a promise to the Jews of the world that no Jew would ever go unprotected again in the face of destruction. The state will always live up to that promise, and it currently continues to live on that promise in the question of migration in the West Bank.

That's odd. I don't see IDF battalions defending the few Jews I know in Croatia. Also, during the recent massacre of Jews in Mumbai, Israel did not invade Pakistan. So apparently this humanitarian aid in the form of arms, military protection, walls, checkpoints and so on, is only extended to Jews in the West Bank.

[Sasha]

thread closed as the OP was indeed a sockpuppet of a banned user (and not from israel btw) so he is banned too now.