Failure oF UsSR

[koba]

Id like to have your point of view on the failure of the USSR or maybe a website which explains the last moments of the USSR and the reasons why it crumbled. All i know is that there are no official reasons on paper only theories. And that there was Coup d'état ? was Gorbachev (sorry for spelling) to blame ? *Ive also hear of a step towars democracy ? * my knowledge is vary vague so please clear things up for me ...... Thx

p.s. dont give me no Ussr was never truly marxist speaches *i know that already, and that there is no truly marxist/communist/socialist country. I just want to know the events that took place and the reasons of its crumble.

-koba

[Dreadnaht1]

Yeah don't worry, I'm not a neo-Marxist about to give you one of those crazy never was communist speeches.

I feel that one magor reason the USSR fell on 12/8/91 (10th anniversary, hurray) was the fact that the US had starved the magor ally of USSR, Cuba. By strangeling Cuba, the USSR had to spend valuable rescources, money, etc. on the island and this probobly aided in the fall and collapse of the Soviets.

Another reason was just the general deterioration of the revolution and of the government after Lenin's death. He himself stated that the government he set up would fall shortly after his death (allthough by short 70 years isnt exactly that). He however assumed that the communist gov't would be replaced by a classless society. Maybe if Trotsky had been the successor to Lenin instead of Stalin we would all be in paradise but past is past.

I suppose the magor final reason that the USSR collapsed was probobly due to interior problems. I.E. Gorbachev wanted democracy and the rest of the government did not.

Anyway, that's my opinion as to what really killed the USSR. Hope it helps.

Comrade Dread

[Kez]

Hey,
im Armenian and as Armenia was a former USSR republic, and ive returned to armenia many times it is clear to see the problems which occured in the USSR.
I am talking of the problems post Stalin
One major problem was the fact that there was little or no incentive for workers. ie the govt told the worker to make a building, the worker was a lazy sod and he took ages, knowing he wouldnt be fired.
Therefore people were low in terms of productivity.
Which meant that the USSR couldnt keep up with the ridiculous arms race.
Which meant it spent shitloads % wise of its budget on weapons, which probably werent gonna be used.
The communist party was also screwed, people knew that if they wanted to get anywhere in life they had to join the communist party, which meant that there were loads of communist party members who werent even communists.
Another thing which led to the downfall fo the glorious USSR, was that people believed it wasnt the best system, because they couldnt contrast the commies with the capitalists and they therefore didnt know the full story.

there are other points also i will add later
comrade kamo

[Capitalist]

What led to this monumental historical event? The answer is very complex, yet I will try to provide a simple answer.

The Russian revolution which the Communistic Bolsheviks stole from the Democratic Mensheviks was intended to create one socialistic state that would overcome national differences.

This was a problem from the start.

First, the Soviets underestimated the non-Russian ethnic groups in the conquered neighboring countries (which comprised more than fifty percent of the total population of the Soviet Union) would resist assimilation into a Russianized State.

Second, their communistic economy outlawed the practice of Capitalism and business ownership. The socialistic economy failed to meet the needs of the State, which was caught up in a vicious arms race with the United States.

Third, the Soviet Government failed to brainwash the population into accepting Communism Totalitarian Rule. The political landscape was corrupted and controlled entirely by the one communist party.

In 1985, the country had devolved into deep economic and political disaster.

Gorbachev decided to introduce some bold reforms.

First he initiated a policy of glasnost, or freedom of speech.

Second, he began a program of economic reform known as perestroika,

What Gorbachev did not realize was that by giving people complete FREEDOM of expression, he was unwittingly unleashing a nation of slaves.

The Soviet people consequently used their newly allotted freedom of speech to criticize Gorbachev and the Communist Party for their failure to improve the nation.

The disintegration of the Soviet Union began on the peripheries, in the non-Russian areas. The first region to produce mass, organized dissent was the Baltic region, where, in 1987, the government of Estonia demanded autonomy. This move was later followed by similar moves in Lithuania and Latvia, the other two Baltic republics. The nationalist movements in the Baltics constituted a strong challenge to Gorbachev's policy of glasnost. He did not want to crack down too severely on the participants in these movements, yet at the same time, it became increasingly evident that allowing them to run their course would spell disaster for the Soviet Union, which would completely collapse if all of the periphery republics were to demand independence.

After the initiative from Estonia, similar movements sprang up all over the former Soviet Union. In the Transcaucasus region (in the South of the Soviet Union), a movement developed inside the Armenian-populated autonomous region of Nagorno-Karabagh, in the Republic of Azerbaijan. The Armenian population of this region demanded that they be granted the right to secede and join the Republic of Armenia, with whose population they were ethnically linked. Massive demonstrations were held in Armenia in solidarity with the secessionists in Nagorno-Karabagh. The Gorbachev government refused to allow the population of Nagorno-Karabagh to secede, and the situation developed into a violent territorial dispute, eventually degenerating into an all-out war which continues unabated until the present day.

More nationalist movements emerged in Georgia, Ukraine, Moldova, Byelorussia, and the Central Asian republics. The power of the Central Government was considerably weakened by these movements; they could no longer rely on the cooperation of Government figures in the republics.

Finally, the situation came to a head in August of 1991 in a last-ditch effort to save the Soviet Union. A group of "hard-line" Communists organized a coup d'etat. They kidnapped Gorbachev, and then, on August 19 of 1991, they announced on state television that Gorbachev was very ill and would no longer be able to govern. The country went into an uproar. Massive protests were staged in Moscow, Leningrad, and many of the other major cities of the Soviet Union. When the coup organizers tried to bring in the military to quell the protectors, the soldiers themselves rebelled, saying that they could not fire on their fellow countrymen. After three days of massive protest, the coup organizers surrendered, realizing that without the cooperation of the military, they did not have the power to overcome the power of the entire population of the country.

After the failed coup attempt, it was only a few months until the Soviet Union completely collapsed. The massive demonstrations of the "August days" had demonstrated that the population would accept nothing less than democracy. On December 25, 1991, Gorbachev resigned. By January of 1992, by popular demand, the Soviet Union ceased to exist. In its place, a new entity was formed. It was called the "Commonwealth of Independent Republics," and was composed of most of the independent countries of the former Soviet Union. While the member countries had complete political independence, they were linked to other Commonwealth countries by economic, and, in some cases, military ties.

Now that the Soviet Union has ceased to exist, the fifteen newly formed independent countries which emerged in its aftermath are faced with an overwhelming task. They must develop their economies, reorganize their political systems, and, in many cases, settle bitter territorial disputes. A number of wars have developed on the peripheries of the former Soviet Union. Additionally, the entire region is suffering a period of severe economic hardship, mostly due to Mafia involvement and corrupt politicians. However, despite the many hardships facing the region, bold steps are being taken toward democratization, reorganization, and rebuilding in most of the countries of the former Soviet Union.

The problem with socialism is that it creates a state where everyone is equal except the communist party member. There is no incentive to better one self under socialism. Only under Capitalism and Demcoracy, can a nation reach it's full potential. Democracy creates an atmosphere of competition where only the best leaders are elected and capitalism creates an atmosphere where hard workers and inovative thinkers are rewarded for contributing to the community.

Don't let the communist bad mouth Capitalism.

The ONLY time Capitalism is bad is when

1 - The workers are slaves, or paid low wages, or are restricted from the right to freely assemble and create unions.

2 - If the product manufactured by the worker creates harmful by-products to the environment or community (example - pollution).

A nation without Capitalism and Democracy will starve itself to death - which is what has happened in the Soviet Union.

[Kez]

Brings a tear to my eye
capitalist my friend, id say 75% of that is correct, which is remarkebly good considering how an ass u seemed b4. my apologies for b4
the incorrect things are the last few paragraphs,
u used the USSR as the ideal form of communism, when in fact it isnt.
Democracy and communism go hand in hand when applied correctly, unlike in the SU.
Capitalism is slavery, as marx puts it, wage slave or something, plz correct me.
The capitalists brainwash the workers more than SU, its hard to brainwash ppl when ur giving them the best education free!
I agree that if the bolsheviks didnt fuck the mensheviks up, and held up democracy then we would still have SU, now and it would be the best,
i will add more later

comrade kamo

[Moskitto]

1 - The workers are slaves, or paid low wages, or are restricted from the right to freely assemble and create unions.

Yep, Go to Africa, see people living in poverty, starving, selling goods for prices set by western corporations. Thats people being paid low wages.


2 - If the product manufactured by the worker creates harmful by-products to the environment or community (example - pollution).

Hmmm, Different this one. Maybe it is the constant drive for profit that is causing pollution. Well the US won't enter the Kyoto agreement on the basis that "It's not in our economic interest" so that's probably the case.

Right, Mensheviks

You can't diss Mensheviks. Mensheviks were better, They wanted democratic process, They wanted reform not an all out revolution.

Shame Stalin killed them all. And Bukharin. And Decent Farmers. Yeah Stalin got rid of all the good people.

[Dreadnaht1]

Capitalist: "What led to this monumental historical event? The answer is very complex, yet I will try to provide a simple answer."

Is it just me or does it seem like you think you know it all and if a little condescending as well?

I just got a new idea for a quote. Thank's Cappy...

Comrade Dread

[Capitalist]

To Dreadnaht 1:

"Oink Oink"

[Dreadnaht1]

At least you have some pride in being what you are and to admitting to it. I can't deny that little bit of respect that I have to give you for that.

Comrade Dread

[Moskitto]

I'll do my usualy "OK then, i'll move slowly away"

[Markxs]

guys please dont insult eachother all the time ( you damn assholes ) sorry that was a joke.

ok the only reason capitalism worked in the western world is because of the ppl who have the no goods dont live here but live in africa. our minds are taken of them and we give war child and all cash and steal 8 times as much from them every day. i wonder why ppl feel good about capitalism

as for fake communism in the ussr, china, (in the head of john lennon:) )
i believe it failed at the point there was a rev which nobody who wasnt brainwashed supported. capitalism is the same as it, everybody who can understand economics (capitalist ones offcourse ). can see that when i give you one dollar i receive 0.5 back i loose everytime it happens when you do that every day for 400 years with africa who is wondering why those ppl are poor ? and who is wondering which economic system creates ? and yes it was also hard for me to see that the capitalist dream ( my lives dream ) was a lie...... i am sorry please try martin luther kings one its better!

[Guest1]

I don't remember who but someone in one of the other threads mentioned evolution of society as the reason for failure of the USSR. I just finished reading the communist manifesto, Marx believed in Communism as the next step. USSR went straight from Feudalism to Communism, there was no industrialization, no education of the proletariate. In the manifest, he never even mentions Russia. He had Germany in mind. Mexico would be perfect, industrialized, educated proletariat, revolution already under way and a democratic socialist movement rather than a tyrannical one. Keep an eye on that, who knows, maybe it'll happen.

[Capitalist]

To Markxs

I really like that song from John Lennon - "Imagine"

Unfortunately - I don't think the utopia he sings about is possible - it is imagination.

I like Martin Luther King - He was a true Revolutionary. He truly loved people - even the enemy. Unlike Che Guevara who was motivated by American hatred. Che lost his focus. Che's revolution was for revenge. Martin Luther's revolution, like Gahndi's revolution, was for reform.

And I will admit that the Communist did quite a lot to help the African people in their struggle for world respect. I understand that many communist have good intentions - and sometimes are quite successful in certain aspects of socialism.

[Moskitto]

I once learned to play Imagine on the keyboard. I can't remember the words though

[CommieBastard]

Che's battle was for the freedom of the people of Latin America. He wanted to see reforms in Latin America that would set people free of the 'banana republic' shit which the american's perpetuated. He did not want to take on the US, he was only concerned with the US where it interfered with the freedom of the people he loved.

[Moskitto]

If I wanted a revolution I'd blatantly try and do it like Ghandi did it.

The thing is i bet i'd be assasinated by a hard line communist.

[CommieBastard]

I would use the alternative community method, and only resort to violence as a direct means of defence. I wouldnt want another paris commune...

[Kez]

Screw me man, if i could id do another paris commune, id put so many friggin guns there and man them so good that if one capitalist drunk came withing a 5 mile radius of my town id liberate the whole friggin world of the expoliting whores
peaceful protest dont work, just works as a phase, name me a peaceful revoluition which worked?
European protests in 60's were militant, they didnt just sing songs and do jack, they took action.

comrade kamo

[Dreadnaht1]

Peace is good, until it no longer serves any purpose. Take action of the most bold kind when it is needed and it is needed now, here, today.

I think the FTAA Summit Meeting in Canada a year ago were quite refreshing. They had protestors who were peacefully protesting. The cops interviend by setting up a 8' tall fence arround the meeting area and spraying the crowd with tear gas. Many of the protestors, the more militant ones, were ready for this. They had tear gas, crowbars, gas masks, pepper spray, and best of all their main weapon against the cops--moltov cocktails. And they used it against the police. They took down the fence and distracted the cops for most of the meeting allowing the rest of the protestors to have slightly less of an opressive force present.

[MJM]

I was talking with a Russian guy a few months back,he was there when communism fell. His take on it was that corruption and organised crime were the cause,the government couldn't stop the criminals.The guy is over 40 and he grew up in the USSR.He also told me the images the west were shown were simply not true.When I mentioned the people lined up in the snow trying to get food he laughed and told me they were lining up for vodka.
I think that the sino-soviet split is at the heart of it and the continuation of classes.
The class thing is still a problem I think and the greatest one of all.With the intellegentsia,party members and proleteriat you are gonna get trouble.


(Edited by MJM at 5:02 pm on Dec. 13, 2001)

[ArgueEverything]

3 primary reasons for the collapse of the USSR:

1) suppression of free thought.
2) mismanagement of already scarce resources (aiding foreign liberation armies that had no hope of winning)
3) the ignorant stalinist belief that socialism can work in one country. capitalism is a world economic system; the system that replaces it must also be.

[CommieBastard]

err, kamorade... the paris commune was pacifist, and what resulted was the paris commune massacre, in which the whole lot of em were slaughtered...

which is why i was saying i would use violence in direct defense, i would pump the place full of weapons too, just pray i wouldnt have to use them...

Peacefull action is needed to raise awareness and support. That is something that there is not enough of yet, violent action is only relevant in the poorer countries, in richer countries you simply wont get support from the ignorant quasi-bourgoisie lower classes.

major reasons for USSR collapse?
don't forget the pressure that the space and arms race put on the USSR's budget, to keep up with the USA, which spent about 5%, the USSR had to spend about 40%.
aiding foreign liberation armies? good idea, spreads socialism and allows interaction with elsewhere, and some were succesful, vietnam? cuba?
but yes, stalinism in general was fated for doom. It was a sickening perversion of communism which removed the progressive elements of it's ideology. A dictatorship is not the ulimate aim of communism, but Stalin said it was. He fucked the Russian people, and he fucked communist ideologies. He was the enemy from within, and he still hangs over us like a spectre. We should curse and spit when we say his name, hell, i do anyway.

[Freiheit]

for once i have to agree with capitalist.
if the menshevik had got the power, it would have looked very different.
the mistake was the foundation. with the time the leader lost the connection with the pple and that was the death.

[koba]

Thank you all.... :)
even though i found out pretty much what you all told me before i came back here to check your answers.

the point on Mencheviks, i especially agree if the Bolcheviks didnt kill them off ... things would of been a whole lot differant.

And it tears me to see that capitalists use Stalinism to diss us off to the general public making things much harder for us.

Thanks Again


-Koba

[peaccenicked]

The failure of the USSR has to be put in the context of world history, central to this is the failure of the revolution to spread to the western developed countries. Imperialism become the dominant mode of production. Socialism on the perifery is doomed to market forces, the siege mentality and counter revolution
The USSR was an entity with no future which become a relative fetter on the development of western notions of socialism and Gorbachev merely gave the final expression of counter revolutionary politics by summoning Menshevism a pro maket pro war creed.


(Edited by peaccenicked at 11:51 pm on Dec. 23, 2001)

[Kez]

Do any of you believ that radio liberty or whatever that propaganda bollocks was called fucked the system of the USSR up?
where is the hq of radio liberty?

comrade kamo