Communism and Anti-Semitism

[Nikolay]

I am getting the feeling that communists are generally anti-Israel, and to an extent anti-antisemitic. And I don't really understand why. I myself don't agree with how Israel went about stealing Palestinian territory, however, I do believe that Israel is entitled to territory that belonged to it in the past. I believe Jerusalem should be divided by east and west, and that all Israeli settlers in the West Bank should be sent back to Israel. However, I don't believe Israel should be destroyed or "taken" off the face of the earth.

So, what is the deal with all this hate towards Israel? Shouldn't the Jews have their own homeland?

[Akshay!]

No, Israel is NOT "entitled" to any stolen land. Do you think British are "entitled" to Indian land? Are French "entitled" to Algerian land?

Colonialism is colonialism - no matter who does it.


Also, your statement that "communists are to an extent anti-semitic" doesn't make any sense at all. What has communism got to do with racism? In fact, communists MUST be Against all forms of racism otherwise they're not communists to begin with!

For the MILLIONTH time, being anti-Zionist has Nothing to do with being antisemitic!
anti-Zionism is anti-racism. Anti-semitism is racism. Equating these two is like saying anti-racism is racism - which does make a lot of sense... if you're an idiot (or a Zionist).


So, what is the deal with all this hate towards Israel?

Yes, we hate Israel - just like we hate every other country based on racism, colonialism, constant oppression and humiliation of the native population, and occupation of their land and resources. And if you're not against such an entity, you're NOT a communist. Period.

[Sudsy]

however, I do believe that Israel is entitled to territory that belonged to it in the past- Marceau

What about everyone else that originated from there? What about the vast number of non-jewish people who originate there? Human life began in Africa, but I don't have any right to roll over their land, kill them and live there. The zionists use holy references as well to justify their conquest of Palestine. As if any holy doctrine should be the guideline for morality, (that maybe hard to say to everyday people but my leftist friends know what I mean). Communists don't care if these people are Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, whatever, we are against all imperialist oppression, I strongly agree with everything Akshay said above.

[evermilion]

Have you ever heard of adverse possession? The fact that the Palestinians have been on that land for as long as they have, developing it for human use, means that they were putting it to much, much better use than the Jews were at the same time, given that they were not using it at all. Who cares if the Jews "used" to live there? The most recent settlers were the Palestinians and they were the ones who had developed homes there.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Personally I back the Canaanites to take back their rightful homeland from those damned Egyptians... :rolleyes:

You're meant to be a 'communist'. That comes with a certain willingness to stand against oppression, nationalism, imperialism and the nation state. Israel just happens to be a prominent example of such.

[WelcomeToTheParty]

What would be the leftist solution to the Israel-Palestine problem? Is it two state or single state?

[evermilion]

What would be the leftist solution to the Israel-Palestine problem? Is it two state or single state?

Ultimately, the leftist solution is no state, right?

[Sudsy]

What would be the leftist solution to the Israel-Palestine problem? Is it two state or single state?

I don't think that's really the business of outsiders, but I would say that both have many flaws. If Palestinians and Israelis could live together in peace with Zionism demolished, I'd say one state solution like the PFLP proposes, as this would probably be the more egalitarian solution because if Palestine was a separate state from Israel, it wouldn't stop Israel from being the already imperialist aggressor that it is. Palestinians have the right to land within Israel as well, not just what's left of it. A one state solution may be idealistic, but I believe it is best. Then again, these matters should be up to the Palestinians.

[Sudsy]

But to Marceau, I assure you we are not fringe lunatic anti-semites.

[Sudsy]

Ultimately, the leftist solution is no state, right?
Yes, but unfortunately that seems far off for Palestine.

[barbelo]

Discussions about Israel get tedious after the 100th time.

As for your question of why Israel is picked apart from the numerous ills that ravage this world, my opinion is that there is a huge material interest behind both supporting and opposing Israel; and one wonder how many more Zaha Hadid's colossal and useless buildings could be made in Arabia with the money that is funneled into this, if you know what I mean.
The western left is merely confining itself to be as relevant as it was over the past century: the moralists, do-gooders cries have less impact than background noise.
As I said here before anyone who went to Israel could see how the reality there is different from what is portrayed both by supporters and opposers of this state, what you get from Israel outside Israel is so distorted that people discussing this country and its circumstances sounds like kids pretending to be kings and enacting solutions for the world.

Winners write history and the most amazing thing of this conflict is that there isn't any winner and there won't be in a future. Palestine, be it Hamas or whatever weak mutant entity that rules the West Bank, have no objective besides frustrating Israel, and Israel is locked, they doesn't have diplomatic options, they doesn't have military options, they doesn't have demographic options, they doesn't even have the sheer number of people to simply flood everything and everyone with their own point of view, like Russia or Usa always had. Neither sides can do anything. At least one lesson can be taken out of this: technologic and organizational superiority means nothing if you don't have diplomacy.
Someone more realistic would say that this is what the jews deserve for trying to be honorable, for preserving the Dome of the Rock and that shitty nearby mosque, for putting all the signs of the country in arab and hebrew, for getting out of Gaza, for dancing to the american flute, for preserving arabs in Nazareth or Haifa, for absorbing arab jews who will never be compensated by their countries like people demand compensation for palestinians, for... Not killing the palestinians like Gengis Khan would.

Now excuse me that I need to give attention to the BDS movement against the imperialistic californians. Free Aztlan! Them evil colonists think I forgot that more than 150 years ago they were stealing land from natives.

[Crixus]

As for your question of why Israel is picked apart from the numerous ills that ravage this world, my opinion is that there is a huge material interest behind supporting Israel

Sure is.




The western left is merely confining itself to be as relevant as it was over the past century: the moralists, do-gooders cries have less impact than background noise.

I agree to an extent, about irrelevance of the left partly being because an endless supply of moralistic complaints but this issue is an obvious case of one peoples oppressing another. It's in the interests of all workers to advocate equal power dynamics. This isnt so much about doo-gooding just as it's in all of our interest to advocate equal power dynamics between men and women. Black and white etc.





As I said here before anyone who went to Israel could see how the reality there is different from what is portrayed both by supporters and opposers of this state, what you get from Israel outside Israel is so distorted that people discussing this country and its circumstances sounds like kids pretending to be kings and enacting solutions for the world.

Westerners do go there all the time. Some have been ran over by Israeli tanks. Kids, cameramen, women...you name it.


Winners write history and the most amazing thing of this conflict is that there isn't any winner and there won't be in a future.

Such wisdom.



Palestine, be it Hamas or whatever weak mutant entity that rules the West Bank, have no objective besides frustrating Israel

This is just silly. That's all they can do with rocks and overgrown bottle rockets. In turn they're systematically slaughtered while being subjugated.




, and Israel is locked, they doesn't have diplomatic options,

Nonsense




they doesn't have military options,

Air raids, bombings, troops and tanks with piles of dead Palestinians. Nope. No military options are used.




they doesn't have demographic options

Squeeze the Palestinians out via further setting. You know, something you supposedly don't support?



they doesn't even have the sheer number of people to simply flood everything and everyone with their own point of view
It's a pity they can't brainwash the globe.


Neither sides can do anything.


One can oppress and the other can be oppressed. Poor Israeli state.





Someone more realistic would say that this is what the jews deserve for trying to be honorable, for preserving the Dome of the Rock and that shitty nearby mosque, for putting all the signs of the country in arab and hebrew, for getting out of Gaza, for dancing to the american flute, for preserving arabs in Nazareth or Haifa, for absorbing arab jews who will never be compensated by their countries like people demand compensation for palestinians, for... Not killing the palestinians like Gengis Khan would.

Such restraint! You're right, the Israeli state is compassionate. I should've thought of this sooner.



Now excuse me that I need to give attention to the BDS movement against the imperialistic californians. Free Aztlan! Them evil colonists think I forgot that more than 150 years ago they were stealing land from natives.

And if Marxists were around 150 years ago we would have opposed colonial land grabs and the forced expansion of capitalist markets. Somewhat how we now oppose whats going on in the Middle East and Africa. We may as well just stop all the moralizing and be pro-war. Pro apartheid. Pro sexism. Pro racism and pro creation of religious homelands.

[Palmares]

This is the like the claim that hip-hop was actually created by white people...

Karl Marx was a Jew. There is a history of communist Jews.

There just isn't a record of zionist communists. And for good reason. Just because someone is Jewish, doesn't mean they have to be zionist.

Fuck nationalism, even Hesiodic Jews aren't zionist.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I myself don't agree with how Israel went about stealing Palestinian territory, however, I do believe that Israel is entitled to territory that belonged to it in the past.

Well, there goes Canada to the French, I suppose.


Discussions about Israel get tedious after the 100th time.

I agree. But that is what happens when avowed "leftists" insist on defending a psychotic settler dictatorship currently engaged in ethnic cleansing.


As for your question of why Israel is picked apart from the numerous ills that ravage this world, my opinion is that there is a huge material interest behind both supporting and opposing Israel; and one wonder how many more Zaha Hadid's colossal and useless buildings could be made in Arabia with the money that is funneled into this, if you know what I mean.

Palestinians are just rolling in money, of course. First they had to make do with simple rocks against Israeli tanks, but now they're so filthy rich they throw rubies and citrines at the Merkavas. And of course, every leftist except Sean Magatma is simply drowning in sheik money. At this rate, we'll be able to buy the capitalists out.


As I said here before anyone who went to Israel could see how the reality there is different from what is portrayed both by supporters and opposers of this state, what you get from Israel outside Israel is so distorted that people discussing this country and its circumstances sounds like kids pretending to be kings and enacting solutions for the world.

This is probably my favourite lazy argument. "You've never been to Israel/Cologne/Cestus III, so you should shut up." Well, believe it or not, reports exist, and while they are of course biased, it's not as if coming to Israel and staying for a week or two is enough.


Winners write history and the most amazing thing of this conflict is that there isn't any winner and there won't be in a future.

Let us review the facts. One group in this conflict lives in relative security and luxury. The other has either been expelled to refugee camps, or has to live with the fear of being bombed, shot or run over every time an Israeli politician needs to boost their poll ratings.


Palestine, be it Hamas or whatever weak mutant entity that rules the West Bank, have no objective besides frustrating Israel,

The Palestinian governments have done everything in their power to pacify the Palestinian masses and to stop them from attacking Israel.


and Israel is locked, they doesn't have diplomatic options,

Hello? Israel recently attacked the territory of another state, without provocation, and was not even censured.


they doesn't have military options,

...except the cruise missiles and the main battle tanks and the cluster munitions and the...


they doesn't have demographic options,

Except driving the Palestinians out and replacing them with Israeli settlers. Which they have been doing for quite some time.


Someone more realistic would say that this is what the jews deserve for trying to be honorable, for preserving the Dome of the Rock and that shitty nearby mosque, for putting all the signs of the country in arab and hebrew, for getting out of Gaza, for dancing to the american flute, for preserving arabs in Nazareth or Haifa, for absorbing arab jews who will never be compensated by their countries like people demand compensation for palestinians, for... Not killing the palestinians like Gengis Khan would.

But you're not realistic, right? A more realistic administration would ban people for such vile outbursts of racist hate against Palestinians, not thank your posts.

[Rurkel]

Someone more realistic would say that this is what the jews deserve for trying to be honorable, for preserving the Dome of the Rock and that shitty nearby mosque, for putting all the signs of the country in arab and hebrew, for getting out of Gaza,I don't think that Israel deserves any praise or being called "honorable" for some elements of Basic Decency 101 (actually, praising Israel for BD 101 is a common trait in fervent Israeli defenders).

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

That quote does more than praise Israel, though. It implies that Palestinians should have been "killed like Genghis Khan would". Them and their "shitty mosques".

[barbelo]

I don't think that Israel deserves any praise or being called "honorable" for some elements of Basic Decency 101 (actually, praising Israel for BD 101 is a common trait in fervent Israeli defenders).

I was just pointing that although Israel have 100% control of Jerusalem, they never touched the Dome of the Rock.
I'm not a fervent israel defender, I'm just someone who think that this shit of apartheid state and supporting ethnic-sectarian-national struggles is a big brainwashing.


That quote does more than praise Israel, though. It implies that Palestinians should have been "killed like Genghis Khan would". Them and their "shitty mosques".

I was not implying that palestinians should be killed, unlike many posters here I don't entitle myself to determine how things should our should not be, I was implying the obvious: in every successful occupation/expropriation of land in history, the invading side won by exterminating or near exterminating the invaded side. And that many diplomatic problems of Israel comes from this.


Palestinians are just rolling in money

Oh please I wasn't talking about palestinians, but arabs. And arabs do support palestinians.


The Palestinian governments have done everything in their power to pacify the Palestinian masses and to stop them from attacking Israel.

Wut, how does that even reply to what you quoted from me?
Lack of options=lack of solutions for the conflict
Or you think Israeli military actions actually solve anything?
Or you think Palestinian engagement in diplomacy with international organization actually solve anything?


Except driving the Palestinians out and replacing them with Israeli settlers

It makes me laugh that someone think there was people living in the middle of the judean desert where today stands Maale Adumim. But yes, I agree with you, the one option Israel appears to have in tipping things for their side is settlement in the West Bank.
Only the future will tell.

Racist for saying Al-Aqsa mosque is shitty? Compare it with Blue Mosque in Turkey or the thousands of Seljuq mosques in Anatolia and Iran... Al-Aqsa seems like a rushed and bland work for such an important place. I bet you guys don't understand shit about islamic architecture :3

[Paul Pott]

Let me turn that on its head. Why should we normalize the demographic status quo imposed by Zionism? Why shouldn't we condemn modern day colonialism?

As for the land belonging to Israel, this is like saying France should belong to the Irish and Welsh because it was ancient Celtic land.

At any rate, even that analogy is too generous because the notion that the modern Jews are equivalent to the ancient Hebrews is the biggest propaganda coup of Zionism. The Palestinians ironically have a much better claim in that regard.

Israel should not exist. Palestinians should reclaim the entirety of the territory occupied by the Zionist state. That position should be a litmus test for revolutionary parties, orgs, and individuals. This board should take a hard stance on Zionist posters, but we know why that won't happen...

If the OP and the resident Zionists want to call that anti-Semitic then I'm proudly anti-Semitic and will remain so for the rest of my life.

[blake 3:17]

Someone more realistic would say that this is what the jews deserve for trying to be honorable, for preserving the Dome of the Rock and that shitty nearby mosque, for putting all the signs of the country in arab and hebrew, for getting out of Gaza,

I'd started to respond to your post about the theft of California and reread the entire post and am shocked. What's to respond to? What would I be responding to?

[Lokomotive293]

Maybe a lot of people here won't agree with me, but I do believe that a lot of the "drive Israel back into the sea", that is unfortunately supported by many leftists as well, is at least inspired by anti-semitism.
Yes, that whole stuff about "the Jews originated there, so Israel is entitled to this land" is bullshit, and also, there are a lot of Jews who don't want anything to do with Israel, so Israel claiming to be the only rightful representative of all Jews of the world is, imo, pretty disgusting.
However, you shouldn't forget that Israel has existed for 60 years, many settlers have lived there for generations, and many want to live in peace with the Palestinians. We simply shouldn't forget that not all Israelis are Imperialists, and that the oppression of the Palestinians is not just against the interests of the Palestinians, but also against the interests of the majority of Israelis.

[WelcomeToTheParty]

Ultimately, the leftist solution is no state, right?

A little less long term than that. What's the compromise you push for? Or do you stick to the line and hope that pulls the eventual compromise farther left?


Palestinians have the right to land within Israel as well, not just what's left of it. A one state solution may be idealistic, but I believe it is best. Then again, these matters should be up to the Palestinians.

Is that possible though? Given the material conditions (like The U.S. guaranteeing Israel's right to exist) what's the least good option that you'd accept if it stopped the blockades and the violence?

[Akshay!]

Someone more realistic would say that this is what the jews deserve for trying to be honorable, for preserving the Dome of the Rock and that shitty nearby mosque, for putting all the signs of the country in arab and hebrew, for getting out of Gaza,


communists are generally anti-Israel, and to an extent antisemitic. And I don't really understand why.

Shouldn't the Jews have their own homeland?

Do you know what's Racist? Saying that Jews are somehow special ("chosen") people above everyone else and must have their own "homeland" which is to be created by the occupation of Palestine - THAT is Racist.

Do you know what else is Racist?

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." — Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." — Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

THAT is racist.

Now stop calling yourself a "communist". You're lucky that one of the admins (psycho) is himself a Zionist (who thinks that Palestine is a "backwater colony improved by Zionism", as he said in the "What is Zionism" thread). Otherwise you both would've been banned long ago!


A more realistic administration would ban people for such vile outbursts of racist hate against Palestinians, not thank your posts.

This. I couldn't have put it better.

[Nikolay]

Do you know what's Racist? Saying that Jews are somehow special ("chosen") people above everyone else and must have their own "homeland" which is to be created by the occupation of Palestine - THAT is Racist.

Do you know what else is Racist?

"Spirit the penniless population across the frontier by denying it employment... Both the process of expropriation and the removal of the poor must be carried out discreetly and circumspectly." — Theodore Herzl, founder of the World Zionist Organization, speaking of the Arabs of Palestine, Complete Diaries, June 12, 1895 entry.

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism,colonialization or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." — Yoram Bar Porath, Yediot Aahronot, of 14 July 1972.

THAT is racist.

Now stop calling yourself a "communist". You're lucky that one of the admins (psycho) is himself a Zionist (who thinks that Palestine is a "backwater colony improved by Zionism", as he said in the "What is Zionism" thread). Otherwise you both would've been banned long ago!



This. I couldn't have put it better.

I've said nothing and done nothing that warrants a ban. I am a communist. I believe in a stateless and classless society. What I asked was a simple and well meaning question. I never intended on saying communists are racists, which we aren't. I am just confused as to why Israel is always being bashed. I stated before that I don't agree with how Israel went about taking Palestinian land, however, some sort of two-state solution needs to be made, that both nations can agree on. Ultimately though, I hope that they both become stateless and classless societies.

Also, can you at least keep the conversation civil, instead of threatening me with a ban? Greatly appreciated... :l

[#FF0000]

I am just confused as to why Israel is always being bashed.

Because it's a hella high-profile US ally in the middle east that is enforcing a new and exciting form of apartheid.


I stated before that I don't agree with how Israel went about taking Palestinian land

Well, like, it never stopped happening.


however, some sort of two-state solution needs to be made, that both nations can agree on.

Can't see how that could turn out in any way that doesn't make Palestine cripplingly poor and weak tho.

[Nikolay]

Because it's a hella high-profile US ally in the middle east that is enforcing a new and exciting form of apartheid.



Well, like, it never stopped happening.



Can't see how that could turn out in any way that doesn't make Palestine cripplingly poor and weak tho.

I don't agree with the Israeli form of apartheid AT ALL. I do believe Israel is an imperialist country, but the Jewish people have been put through a lot. In terms of the land, I think East Jerusalem should be given to Palestine. All Israeli settlements should be dismantled, the Golan Heights should be given back to Syria, and any Palestinian majority land in Israel should be given to Palestine.

I support Palestine, you know. I just believe countries need to live in peace. And Israel and Palestine both want to fight each other, which I don't want.

And may I just add this is the Learning section. I came here to understand the issue, not to be bashed or threatened with a ban or called a racist.

[cyu]

I myself don't agree with how Israel went about stealing Palestinian territory, however, I do believe that Israel is entitled to territory that belonged to it in the past.

Irrelevant =] http://libcom.org/library/dispossessed-ursula-le-guin

“Shev, you aren't to push other people.”

“Mine!” he said in a high, ringing voice. “Mine sun!”

“It is not yours,” the one-eyed woman said with the mildness of utter certainty. “Nothing is yours. It is to use. It is to share. If you will not share it, you cannot use it.”

The knobby one shook all over, screamed, “Mine sun!” and burst into tears of rage.

“There, now” Shev,” he said. “Come on, you know you can't have things. What's wrong with you?”

[SmirkerOfTheWorld]

I think it would be naive to suggest that the pro-Palestine movement doesn't have some anti-semites in it, particularly when they start going off on 9/11 conspiracy theories and the like. But it's a tiny minority, really, and can be picked out and dismissed by any educated observer.

Similarly, I don't blame Palestinians if there are some anti-semites there - with the kind of abuse they've suffered from Israel, they're hardly going to have the healthiest and most balanced view of the Jews when Israel proudly proclaims itself as the 'Jewish state'.

But of course many of the leaders of the pro-Palestine movement are jewish so it's somewhat absured to suggest anti-semitism is a real problem.

The only worry is when the far-right tries to jump on the pro-Palestine bandwagon so as to promote its own anti-semitic agenda...

[Akshay!]

I am a communist. I believe in a stateless and classless society.

communists are generally anti-Israel, and to an extent antisemitic. Shouldn't the Jews have their own homeland?

Do you see the contradiction? I guess not! Let me point out a few
1) A stateless classless society where Jews can have their "homeland" by occupying Palestine and creating a racist, imperialist state?
2) You're a "communist" and according to you "communists" are "anti-semitic" so you mean you're anti-semitic? o_O
3) "Communists are generally anti-Israel" - you mean you're not? How on earth is Israel = a "classless stateless society"?


I never intended on saying communists are racists, which we aren't.

Wow. You said it, but you didn't intend to say it. Interesting.


I am just confused as to why Israel is always being bashed.

Because as I said it's a racist, imperialist state based on the occupation of land and genocide. If Britain occupied India - why would it be bashed?


I stated before that I don't agree with how Israel went about taking Palestinian land,

So now you don't agree "how" they went about "taking" the land. First, they didn't "take" it. Second, why would it be any better if they had "taken" it some other way? Should the Chinese "take" India and then send all Indians to Sri Lanka and then ask him if they want one little corner of Gujarat back so that all of them can live in that second state?


I do believe that Israel is entitled to territory that belonged to it in the past.

This is so stupid that I can't even begin to reply.


However, I don't believe Israel should be destroyed or "taken" off the face of the earth. So, what is the deal with all this hate towards Israel? Shouldn't the Jews have their own homeland?

Wait, did you mention something about a "stateless" society a few lines ago?

So, to sum up, communists are anti-semitic, Israel should exist in a stateless society, Jews should have their homeland, that territory belongs to them, communists should never be critical of Israel, the Jews are entitled to Palestinian land, and..... you are a communist who believes in a stateless society. :lol:

[Pelarys]

However, you shouldn't forget that Israel has existed for 60 years, many settlers have lived there for generations

Damn, we are litteraly going back to arguments that were used to justify the maintaining of French colonies in Africa.

[Nikolay]

Do you see the contradiction? I guess not! Let me point out a few
1) A stateless classless society where Jews can have their "homeland" by occupying Palestine and creating a racist, imperialist state?
2) You're a "communist" and according to you "communists" are "anti-semitic" so you mean you're anti-semitic? o_O
3) "Communists are generally anti-Israel" - you mean you're not? How on earth is Israel = a "classless stateless society"?



Wow. You said it, but you didn't intend to say it. Interesting.



Because as I said it's a racist, imperialist state based on the occupation of land and genocide. If Britain occupied India - why would it be bashed?



So now you don't agree "how" they went about "taking" the land. First, they didn't "take" it. Second, why would it be any better if they had "taken" it some other way? Should the Chinese "take" India and then send all Indians to Sri Lanka and then ask him if they want one little corner of Gujarat back so that all of them can live in that second state?



This is so stupid that I can't even begin to reply.



Wait, did you mention something about a "stateless" society a few lines ago?

So, to sum up, communists are anti-semitic, Israel should exist in a stateless society, Jews should have their homeland, that territory belongs to them, communists should never be critical of Israel, the Jews are entitled to Palestinian land, and..... you are a communist who believes in a stateless society. :lol:

Well, it looks like you've just mismatched all my words. I never said communists are anti-semitic, I said it seems like it. I just needed clarification, but here you are being a complete jerk. Also, how on earth could Israel exist in a stateless society? Did I ever say that? Nope. Since it's you know, impossible to have country in a stateless society. Yes, I believe in the present system of things, that Israel should have a homeland, but obviously Palestine is entitled to most of the land. I could also care less if communists are critical of Jews, I just never understood why, and that's why I asked in the Learning section to clarify things. I never said Jews are entitled to Palestinian land, such as the West Bank or Gaza. I believe Palestine should be much larger than it is presently. And you're last part is right, I am a communist who believes in a stateless society.

I can't believe how much of a jerk you are. I don't completely understand the Israel and Palestine issue, but here I am being bashed, called a racist, and stupid. Thanks for teaching me so many things. :rolleyes:

[Akshay!]

However, you shouldn't forget that Israel has existed for 60 years, many settlers have lived there for generations,

Ok, so if 1 billion Chinese come to US and stay there for 60 years and create a state, that means US belongs to China.

[evermilion]

However, you shouldn't forget that Israel has existed for 60 years, many settlers have lived there for generations, and many want to live in peace with the Palestinians. We simply shouldn't forget that not all Israelis are Imperialists, and that the oppression of the Palestinians is not just against the interests of the Palestinians, but also against the interests of the majority of Israelis.

Emphasis added.


Damn, we are litteraly going back to arguments that were used to justify the maintaining of French colonies in Africa.

I think the above raises a question as to what some may mean when they say "colonialism." What's wrong with colonialism is not that people of certain national backgrounds are settled in lands to which they're historically alien. Keep in mind that it isn't in the interests of Israeli proletarians to oppress the Palestinian proletarians; most working Israelis and Palestinians believe their two nations can co-exist somehow. Considering that working Israelis have made their homes where they have, recognizing their interests does not have to exclude recognizing the interests of the displaced Palestinians. That Jews have settled in Palestinian land is not the problem. The problem is that Zionist imperialists have terrorized the Palestinians.


A little less long term than that. What's the compromise you push for? Or do you stick to the line and hope that pulls the eventual compromise farther left?

The more I think about it, the more I push for a single transnational state for the Israelis and Palestinians. That may sound idealistic, but I believe the proletarians of both current states recognize their ability to co-exist peacefully. I just doubt the interested bourgeois entities will allow it to happen. I do think it's a good tactic to stick to the no-state line that it might pull the eventual compromises farther left, though.

[evermilion]

Ok, so if 1 billion Chinese come to US and stay there for 60 years and create a state, that means US belongs to China.

No. It does mean they live in the U.S. now, though.

[Akshay!]

No. It does mean they live in the U.S. now, though.

Nobody said anything against people living anywhere. We're against the creation of a racist, imperialist state.

[cyu]

I could also care less if communists are critical of Jews

If 2 communists criticize 2 Jews, would this statement be true? Technically, yes. If 2 communists criticize 2 Jews, does that mean all communists criticize all Jews? No.

I regularly criticize American foreign policy and I live in America. Does that make me a self-hating American? Well, it might if I were actually in charge of that foreign policy. If an Israeli, Honduran, or Bahraini levels the same criticisms of American foreign policy that I do, do I consider him anti-American?

The following is rife in politics. If everyone pointed out just how stupid it is, it would remove maybe even the vast majority of political conflicts: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Association_fallacy

Simon, Karl, Jared, and Brett are all friends of Josh, and they are all petty criminals. Jill is a friend of Josh; therefore, Jill is a petty criminal.

Citizens of Country X won more Nobel Prizes, gold medals, and literary awards than citizens of Country Y. Therefore, a citizen of Country X is superior to a citizen of Country Y.

All dogs have four legs; my cat has four legs. Therefore, my cat is a dog.

[evermilion]

Nobody said anything against people living anywhere. We're against the creation of a racist, imperialist state.

See my post just before yours.

[blake 3:17]

Friends --- I'm not talking as a mod here but as a relatively sane person -- What's going on with a billion Chinese people in the US? There's racist imperialist states all over the world.

Take a breath. It's getting all wonky.

So the OP is doing some conflation of criticism of Israel, criticism of Zionism and anti-Jewish racism. None of them are the same thing.

As much as we not like the forming of a settler nation state it has happened and it is populated. It is also deeply racist, militaristic, corporatist, and expansionist. There are many other countries like that.

But it gets really weird in that it is actively committing a genocide/ethnic cleansing, in completely plain view, and you get Western progressives like Barbara Boxer willing to veto basic rights for citizens of her own country according to Israel's racist laws? Ones that don't exist in the US? WTF?

Israel bombs Syria and nobody has the right to do anything about it? Not even Syria? They demand the US prevent Iran from going nuclear when they went nuclear before the Iranian revolution?

And besides all other garbage, the fact that Mossad uses Canadian passports for carrying out hits really pisses me off. Here's the famous one: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/inatl/longterm/canada/stories/recall100397.htm

[Orange Juche]

For the MILLIONTH time, being anti-Zionist has Nothing to do with being antisemitic!

Whatever you say HITLER. (/sarcasm)

[blake 3:17]

Just got this on FB. This was presented by a friend's parents who are opposing stupid hateful neo-McCarthyism attempting to silence criticism of Israel. There has been a vicious attempt to keep Queers Against Israeli Apartheid from participating in Toronto's LGBTQ+ parade which is massive here. A million people plus.

For people with knee jerk reactions, please do just read:


Dear Mayor and Counsellors on the Executive Committee;

We are concerned that you may ignore the City staff's report recommending against including the use of "Israel apartheid" as a term deserving of inclusion in the city's anti-discrimination policy. This term is NOT in our opinion anti-Semitic or discriminatory in any way. It is a straightforward point of view held by many people about what the Israeli government has been fomenting in the West Bank - also known as the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

This was the target of President Jimmy Carter's 2006 book, Palestine: Peace Not Apartheid. Many Israeli politicians, ranging across the political spectrum from Yossi Sarid (a former Minister of Education and of the Environment) and Shulamit Aloni (a former Minister of Education) on the left to Michael Ben-Yair (a former Attorney General) and Ehud Olmert (a former Prime Minister) on the centre-right, have used the term to refer to what Israel has been doing and likely may face in the future if it doesn't change its policies.

The charge that this term is an attempt to "delegitimize" Israel, that it is anti-Semitic and its use amounts to discrimination, etc. is simply an attempt to suppress critical perspectives on Israel's behaviour and extinguish freedom of speech. Israeli journalists, such as Amira Hass and Zvi Bar'el (writing in Ha'aretz), and Boaz Okon (a former judge, writing on legal matters in Yediot Ahranot) have used the term and advocated for its legitimacy. Israeli academics, such as Daniel Blatman (Hebrew University), Ran Greenstein (University of the Witwatersrand), and Moshé Machover (University of London), as well as well-known Israeli political commentators such as Uri Avnery (a former member of the Knesset) and Meron Benvenisti (a former Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem) and Ami Ayalon (a former admiral in the Israeli navy and a former head of the Shin Bet, Israel's FBI) have done likewise. We have named all these Israelis to demonstrate in depth that the term is not what its critics make it out to be.

We are 73 year old practising Jews, long-time members of Adath Israel Congregation, one of Toronto's oldest synagogues (1903). We have visited Israel some 7 or 8 times, and Gilda was there for a year at the Institute for Youth Leaders From Abroad following her graduation from high school in 1957. She was also president of the Student Zionist Organization at the University of Toronto for two years. We have many relatives and friends living in Israel and correspond with them frequently. Furthermore, Bernard's paternal grandparents, an aunt and uncle, and some cousins escaped virtually certain death in the Holocaust, because they were able to immigrate from Poland to Mandate Palestine in the early 1920's. Of those many family members who were still living in Poland at the beginning of WW2, only one survived.

We hope that you will appreciate our point of view and the absolute fact that advocating or even simply stating that Israel has apartheid policies and practices towards the Palestinians of the West Bank and has instituted racially discriminating polcies and practices against its own Palestinian citizens is in no way anti-Semitic or discriminatory. We urge you and all members of Council to follow the recommendations of the City staff in not including any wording that would ban the use of "Israeli apartheid" as a pre-condition, for example, of Pride Toronto obtaining a grant for it's Pride Day activities.

SIncerely,
Bernard and Gilda Katz

[Lokomotive293]

Nobody said anything against people living anywhere. We're against the creation of a racist, imperialist state.

Then we are of the same opinion. All I was saying is that you can't "drive Israel back into the sea", i.e. send all the Jewish settlers back to where their great-grandparents came from, but that you have to respect that they now live there. I wasn't ever even talking about the Imperialist Israeli state, which of course, on a long term anyway, has to go, in order for there ever to be peace.
Also, as I said, keep in mind, that Israeli society, just like every other capitalist state, is divided into two antagonistic classes. Imo, talking about "the Israelis" as though that division didn't exist, is a mistake at best, anti-semitic at worst.

[Akshay!]

antisemitic.


anti-semitic

Again, anti-semitic?
Can you people write 2 sentences without using that word?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Suppose that I had written something like this:

"Anyway, I mentioned that Israel recently attacked targets in Syria. Someone more realistic would say that this is what the Arabs deserve for trying to be honorable, for preserving the Jewish areas of Damascus and that shitty Jobar synagogue, for protecting Jews from pogroms, for getting out of Israel, for dancing to the American flute, for preserving Jews in Damascus or Hatay, for absorbing Arab Palestinians who will never be compensated by Israel like people demand compensation for the Jews, for... not killing the Jews like Gengis Khan would."

I think we all know what would happen next. I would be banned (as I should be in this hypothetical scenario) and my metaphorical head would be placed on a metaphorical pike in the administrative logs. So why is it that members can post the same repulsive drivel about Palestinian Arabs without even getting an infraction? Why do members of the administration thank their posts?

And this isn't about the Jews. If someone tried to defend the racist Russian state, or the colon dictatorship in Algeria, our response would be the same: we uphold the democratic demand of selfdetermination and decolonisation as a prerequisite to the comprehensive development of class consciousness.

[Mytan Fadeseasy]

I am getting the feeling that communists are generally anti-Israel, and to an extent anti-antisemitic.

Marceau actually said in the original post that s/he thought communists were generally anti-antisemitic. I think you should all apologise. ;)1

[hatzel]

And yet again on this forum I see a thread title and in my mind I imagine a far better and more interesting OP/thread than the actually existing OP/thread that I find after clicking on said thread title, and I end up feeling terribly let down by the whole experience. I was expecting/hoping this to be a thread about what communists can do to tackle antisemitism, what they do and don't do at present, asking if they're doing anything like enough or whether they simply dismiss the concerns of Jewish people and Jewish labour as some petty religious concern or I don't know how exactly they justify it (there are people in this country losing their unemployment benefit because they refuse to work on Shabbat, not to mention any other labour disputes emerging from religious Jewish work restrictions, and there are leftists saying (un?)surprisingly little about it, presumably because they consider it a religious grievance and therefore irrelevant), or maybe even some kind of history thread, something about the long and illustrious history of antisemitism in the labour movement from the 1880's trade unionists' efforts to keep Jews out of the unions and/or country up to the 1980's trade unionists' complaining that Thatcher's cabinet was a little too Jewish for their liking, and asking what we can learn from that. Hell, we could even discuss how a situation could emerge where self-declared communists (and by sheer coincidence I'm looking at somebody in this very thread, actually) could announce themselves onto the forum - or at least my attention - with an OP about Jewish privilege and how it definitely probably maybe exists. How exactly did that kind of stuff start happening, on the left and in society at large, that people could honestly consider such a possibility at the same time as a swathe of new laws discriminating against Jews (even if a not insignificant number hit Jews merely as fallout, whilst actually targetting Muslims) are coming into force across the western world, sometimes even with the full support of the left-wing? That would be a pretty interesting question. But alas, yet more bullcrap that does absolutely nothing to address the situation of actual real-life Jewish people and actual real-life antisemitism. You people haven't got a fucking clue, somebody go make a thread about that, and try to figure out why you don't have one, and how you might get one...

But if every thread about antisemitism must have something to do with Israel or Zionism (and thinking that any discussion of antisemitism has to have something to do with Israel or Zionism is part of the problem, you clown, this is why you're totally incapable of ever doing anything about it!), you could maybe address why there were tens of thousands of people out in the street in Israel a few days ago protesting the military draft, with the backing of Israeli anarchists...and yet the left seems happy to keep silent about it (or did I perhaps simply miss the thread about that on this forum which seems keen to mention every single little event in Israel except for that rather major one?), presumably because they were haredim. Far from the first time the Israeli and international left has sided against the haredim or turned a blind eye to their concerns simply because they are haredim, may I add; some of the stuff that passes for discourse whenever haredim are involved is absolutely unbelievable, and exhibits all the worst characteristics of antisemitism and Orientalism and just outright stupidity, I'm flabbergasted that it manages to slip through the net. Go ask Amnon Raz-Krakotzkin why that might be, go do it! And if you can't find him, you could probably work it out from Gil Anidjar, but I never remember him saying it straight up, and that's why he's the second choice...

[Lokomotive293]

Again, anti-semitic?
Can you people write 2 sentences without using that word?

And again, I am trying to make an argument, and people just ignore or willingly misrepresent it. But, if you will, why don't we throw all Europeans out of America? That land belongs to the Native Americans. Sometimes, maybe, you can't just turn back history. The problem is Imperialism, not Jewish immigrants wanting to live in Palestine. Without Imperialism, none of this conflict would even exist. That were six sentences, btw.

Also, this:


We simply shouldn't forget that not all Israelis are Imperialists, and that the oppression of the Palestinians is not just against the interests of the Palestinians, but also against the interests of the majority of Israelis.

[Nikolay]

Marceau actually said in the original post that s/he thought communists were generally anti-antisemitic. I think you should all apologise. ;)1

Woops, I didn't even realize I put anti twice.. That was a typo.

[cyu]

How does one criticize American foreign policy without leaving yourself open to accusations of anti-Americanism from right-wingers? I see it mainly as a matter of terminology. Instead of saying "I can't believe America is supporting the dictator in Honduras" say "I can't believe the American regime is supporting the dictator in Honduras". If you want to emphasize the temporary or ephemeral nature of what is happening, I would use "the current regime" or "the current American regime" instead.

If I want to emphasize the difference between certain politians and the party members they are trying to corral, I might say "The Democratic Leadership Council regularly takes dives for the capitalist class" - instead of "Democrats regularly take dives for the capitalist class".

The same applies to what happens in the Middle East - if you don't want all Israelis to get general blame for oppression, then I'd say "The current Israeli regime bulldozes Arab homes on a regular basis" instead of "Israelis bulldoze Arab homes on a regular basis". If you want to isolate Likud from the rest of Israel, then mention Likud by name when referring to the policies they support, rather than saying "Israel" instead. Similarly, if you want to differentiate party bosses from the choir they preach to, you might say "the current heads of Likud" rather than simply "Likud".

[Akshay!]

But, if you will, why don't we throw all Europeans out of America? That land belongs to the Native Americans.

The only people being "thrown out" in the Israel-Palestine situation are the Palestinians. No anti-Zionist that I know of has suggested that Israelis should be "thrown out" of anywhere. After Israel has been destroyed, Zionism has been eliminated, they can continue to live in Palestine if they want.

[Sea]

Marceau, we're not against Israel because of their having a large Jewish population any more than we're against the USA for them having a large white population. We think that Israel as a nation-state has no more of a right to the land they control than the PA or Hamas has to wield their own brand of oppression over the land they control. The land does not belong to anyone. Israel has no more of a right to coerce and conquer and control the land than Britain or France or Mexico or any other country. The state exists to oppress, and this is true weather it be the Israeli state or any other, and thus these bourgeois states do not get our support. Communists are against antisemetism by conviction; it is not your ethnic background that determines your personality or intentions or views, it is your upbringing and your class alliances, and the economy around you. Historical materialism runs completely contrary to the "race theory" hogwash that is advocated by racists and antisemites.

This video may be of interest to you, if it hasn't been posted already:

rj7iRwzX-A0


Someone more realistic would say that this is what the jews deserve for trying to be honorable, for preserving the Dome of the Rock and that shitty nearby mosque, for putting all the signs of the country in arab and hebrew, for getting out of Gaza, for dancing to the american flute, for preserving arabs in Nazareth or Haifa, for absorbing arab jews who will never be compensated by their countries like people demand compensation for palestinians, for... Not killing the palestinians like Gengis Khan would.Did you seriously just refer to Israel as "the jews"? That is antisemetic, and you should be ashamed.

[Akshay!]

Slavoj Zizek talks about a Zionist-Antisemite (breivik) - http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/08/anders-behring-breivik-pim-fortuyn

[Lokomotive293]

The only people being "thrown out" in the Israel-Palestine situation are the Palestinians. No anti-Zionist that I know of has suggested that Israelis should be "thrown out" of anywhere. After Israel has been destroyed, Zionism has been eliminated, they can continue to live in Palestine if they want.

I don't know what "destroying Israel" and "eliminating Zionism" will look like in your opinion. Israel is now just as much a nation with a history as Palestine. What needs to happen, imo, is that the Israeli working class support the Palestinians in fighting for their own national sovereignty, and for peace. That will not happen if you demand to "destroy Israel", unless, of course, by "destroying Israel" you mean socialist revolution in Israel. Tbh, I don't think anything short of that will resolve this conflict down there anymore anyway, but then you have to say what you mean. As I said somewhere above, the problem is Imperialism, not Israelis.

[Akshay!]

I don't know what "destroying Israel" and "eliminating Zionism" will look like in your opinion. Israel is now just as much a nation-state with a history as Palestine. What needs to happen, imo, is that the Israeli working class support the Palestinians in fighting for their own national sovereignty, and for peace. That will not happen if you demand to "destroy Israel", unless, of course, by "destroying Israel" you mean socialist revolution in Israel. Tbh, I don't think anything short of that will resolve this conflict down there anymore anyway, but then you have to say what you mean. As I said somewhere above, the problem is Imperialism, not Israelis.

By destroying Israel we mean that Israel as a Zionist state would cease to exist. Israelis can live in Palestine if they want. What part of that is unclear?

[Nikolay]

By destroying Israel we mean that Israel as a Zionist state would cease to exist. Israelis can live in Palestine if they want. What part of that is unclear?

I can actually agree with that. So basically you are saying that Israelis can live in Palestine along with Palestinians. And that power between Palestinians and Israelis would be equal? It would basically be a very multicultural country with two major religions (Judaism and Islam) in it.

Though, I'd prefer it to be a socialist state. ;)

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Anyone should be able to live in Palestine, Jew, Russian or Khmer, as long as the fellah and the workers' land seized by the Zionist state is returned to the Palestinian refugees. Though I doubt there would be any sort of "equal power".

Quite a few Palestinians are Christians, actually, and there is quite a sizeable nonreligious element in both societies. Arab Druze also live in Israel. The notion that Palestine is inhabited only by adherents of Judaism and Muslims is an oversimplification.

[Nikolay]

Anyone should be able to live in Palestine, Jew, Russian or Khmer, as long as the fellah and the workers' land seized by the Zionist state is returned to the Palestinian refugees. Though I doubt there would be any sort of "equal power".

Quite a few Palestinians are Christians, actually, and there is quite a sizeable nonreligious element in both societies. Arab Druze also live in Israel. The notion that Palestine is inhabited only by adherents of Judaism and Muslims is an oversimplification.

Yes, you are absolutely right. I used those two religions as an example because the majority of both nations follow one of them. But yes, anyone should be able to live in a Palestine that encompasses all of the West Bank, Gaza and Israel.

[Lokomotive293]

By destroying Israel we mean that Israel as a Zionist state would cease to exist.

How would that happen, though? Who will "destroy Israel", and how will that come about? Fact is, that now, two nations exist down there, one of them oppressed by the other. And, as Marx has taught us, a people that oppresses other peoples cannot be free itself. So, the Palestinians and the Israeli working class have the same interests, i.e. what needs to happen is that they unite and fight against Israeli Imperialism. I don't get what is so hard to understand about that, and I specifically don't get why everyone seems to forget class analysis as soon as we're talking about Israel.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

The problem with Israel isn't the idea that Jews should be able to live in the Middle East but that a State should exist for one particular ethnic group (aside from any other critique leftists hold towards states in general). Palestinian refugees who used to live in what is now Israel had their property confiscated by the Israeli state, and they have no right of return when any person with Jewish ancestry can move to Israel

[cyu]

From http://cjyu.wordpress.com/article/reconciling-property-rights-with-gcybcajus7dp-9/

Other pro-capitalists do not believe conquest is justified and yet they oppose returning conquered land and resources to the natives (or their descendents). They believe conquest is an injustice, but do not have a good idea of how to rectify that injustice.

Conquest results in wealth for the conquerors. Then that wealth is distributed to cronies and offspring. On and on it goes – not just in this country, but around the world. If you trace back the history of ownership of land and resources, how much of it doesn’t originate in conquest (or what some would call theft)?

How far back do you have to go before you consider property valid? If one group of Australopithecus or Cro-Magnon conquered land from another group of Australopithecus or Cro-Magnon, do their ancestors have to return it? If not, why not? Is there a “statute of limitations”? If so, how many years does it have to be, and who decides on this number?

Personally, I don’t (that’s right, don’t) support giving back everything to the natives (or their descendants). Instead, I assert that the resources be used for the benefit of everyone in that area, whether it’s later settlers, recent immigrants, the natives, whatever. Human beings form societies in order to protect themselves. The point of the political, economic, and religious systems they set up is to benefit as many of the individuals in the population as possible. Because property requires society to enforce it, why should society enforce something that is not beneficial to it? It is not an “axiomatic” right – if it has become perverted to the point at which it is judged no longer beneficial, then it (or at least parts of it) should be dispensed with – especially if it is causing the death of others.

[Akshay!]

How would that happen, though? Who will "destroy Israel", and how will that come about?

Boycott, Divestments, Sanctions. Exactly how Apartheid South Africa was destroyed.


Fact is, that now, two nations exist down there,

No, fact is that only one nation exists down there. Look at this picture - https://fbcdn-sphotos-g-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/665806_483817344974231_108539109_o.jpg http://http://freedomroad.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/Palestinian-Loss-Of-Land-1946-2010.jpeg
How many nations do you see? And this pic is from 2010. The situation now is much worse.



And that power between Palestinians and Israelis would be equal? It would basically be a very multicultural country with two major religions (Judaism and Islam) in it.

Every person would have the same rights - whether Israeli or Papua New Guinean or whatever.

[Devrim]

Boycott, Divestments, Sanctions. Exactly how Apartheid South Africa was destroyed.

The problem with this idea is the fact that it is not true. Boycott. Divestments, and sanctions weren't the driving force behind the change in South Africa. The driving force was massive struggle by the black working class. The change was not forced by foreign liberals not eating Cape oranges, or putting their meager saving into some bank, which didn't invest in South Africa, but by the people themselves in a country where blacks were the overwhelming majority, and crucially where the working class was able to paralyise important sectors of the economy.

The same conditions don't exist in Palestine. The Palestinians are a (slight) minority between the Jordan and the sea, and have been pushed out of large sectors of the Israeli economy.

How are they going to overthrow the state?

Or do you thing not eating Jaffa oranges, and ethical banking will do it for them?

Devrim

[Akshay!]

The problem with this idea is the fact that it is not true. Boycott. Divestments, and sanctions weren't the driving force behind the change in South Africa. The driving force was massive struggle by the black working class. The change was not forced by foreign liberals not eating Cape oranges, or putting their meager saving into some bank, which didn't invest in South Africa, but by the people themselves in a country where blacks were the overwhelming majority, and crucially where the working class was able to paralyise important sectors of the economy.

The same conditions don't exist in Palestine. The Palestinians are a (slight) minority between the Jordan and the sea, and have been pushed out of large sectors of the Israeli economy.

How are they going to overthrow the state?

Or do you thing not eating Jaffa oranges, and ethical banking will do it for them?

Devrim

This just shows that (with all due respect) you have absolutely no idea what BDS is all about. It has nothing to do with oranges etc. Read this book by Omar Barghouti - "Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions: The Global Struggle for Palestinian Rights". Also read anything by Ilan Pappe, and other anti-Zionists.

It's hard to respond to all of these claims so instead I'll just tell what BDS is actually about - (pay attention on the things in bold)



Boycotts target products and companies (Israeli and international) that profit from the violation of Palestinian rights, as well as Israeli sporting, cultural and academic institutions. Anyone can boycott Israeli goods, simply by making sure that they don’t buy produce made in Israel or by Israeli companies. Campaigners and groups call on consumers not to buy Israeli goods and on businesses not to buy or sell them.

Israeli cultural and academic institutions directly contribute to maintaining, defending or whitewashing the oppression of Palestinians, as Israel deliberately tries to boost its image internationally through academic and cultural collaborations. As part of the boycott, academics, artists and consumers are campaigning against such collaboration and ‘rebranding’. A growing number of artists have refused to exhibit or play in Israel.

Divestment means targeting corporations complicit in the violation of Palestinian rights and ensuring that the likes of university investment portfolios and pension funds are not used to finance such companies. These efforts raise awareness about the reality of Israel’s policies and encourage companies to use their economic influence to pressure Israel to end its systematic denial of Palestinian rights.

Sanctions are an essential part of demonstrating disapproval for a country’s actions. Israel’s membership of various diplomatic and economic forums provides both an unmerited veneer of respectability and material support for its crimes. By calling for sanctions against Israel, campaigners educate society about violations of international law and seek to end the complicity of other nations in these violations.

[Lokomotive293]

Boycott, Divestments, Sanctions. Exactly how Apartheid South Africa was destroyed.

Have you ever heard of the concept that a people can only really liberate itself? Most of the work still has to be done by the people that live down there, not from the outside. Also, see what Devrim said. If you want to support Palestinians from where you live, spread awareness of their situation, and protest against the US (or what country you live in) giving military aid to Israel, but boycotting Israeli products is liberal and individualist nonsense spreading illusions about "consumer influence". Same reason I don't walk around screaming "Buy FairTrade!"


No, fact is that only one nation exists down there. Look at this picture -

Nation =/= Nation-state

[Akshay!]

Have you ever heard of the concept that a people can only really liberate itself? Most of the work still has to be done by the people that live down there, not from the outside. Also, see what Devrim said. If you want to support Palestinians from where you live, spread awareness of their situation, and protest against the US (or what country you live in) giving military aid to Israel, but boycotting Israeli products is liberal and individualist nonsense spreading illusions about "consumer influence". Same reason I don't walk around screaming "Buy FairTrade!"



Nation =/= Nation-state

Read the post before yours.

[Devrim]

This just shows that (with all due respect) you have absolutely no idea what BDS is all about. It has nothing to do with oranges etc. Read this book by Omar Barghouti - "Boycott, Divestment, Sanctions: The Global Struggle for Palestinian Rights". Also read anything by Ilan Pappe, and other anti-Zionists.

It's hard to respond to all of these claims so instead I'll just tell what BDS is actually about - (pay attention on the things in bold)

So according to the piece you quoted it is not just about not buying oranges, it is also about rock stars not playing in Tel Aviv. I can really see how people not being able to go to a concert is going to destroy the Israeli state.

Putting aside the sarcasm, you have failed to respond to the point in anyway. You claimed that the apartheid state in South Africa was destroyed by this sort of campaign. I don't think that it was. In my opinion, the changes in South Africa were primarily brought about by the actions of people in South Africa itself, and boycott campaigns played at most a secondary part in this process.

What you seem to be arguing above is that the primary motor for change in South Africa was these sort of campaigns. Do you believe that that is true?

If the answer is yes, you still have a mechanism that would work on Palestine. It has various other problems, including the fact that it denies any agency to the people who live there, without mentioning of course that the South African analogy that it is based on has no connection to reality, but you would have a mechanism.

So the question is whether you believe that the primary force for change in South Africa was these sort of campaigns. If you don't believe that, and you can argue that and argue that these sort of campaigns still have a role to play, but you are still left without a mechanism for change in Palestine.

Devrim

[cyu]

See also http://www.revleft.com/vb/anarchist-viewpoint-crime-t178476/index.html

...I feel so lazy just reposting links, but when you don't feel like rewriting everything... :D

[blake 3:17]

So according to the piece you quoted it is not just about not buying oranges, it is also about rock stars not playing in Tel Aviv. I can really see how people not being able to go to a concert is going to destroy the Israeli state.

...

What you seem to be arguing above is that the primary motor for change in South Africa was these sort of campaigns. Do you believe that that is true?

If the answer is yes, you still have a mechanism that would work on Palestine. It has various other problems, including the fact that it denies any agency to the people who live there, without mentioning of course that the South African analogy that it is based on has no connection to reality, but you would have a mechanism.


The biggest issue with BDS was the academic and cultural boycott and only became convinced of it after hearing Salim Vally speak about how powerful it was in the internal struggle in the anti-apartheid fight in South Africa.

It forced a lot of fence sitters to get off the fence, largely people who didn't like the system and thought it unfair, but didn't feel a need to be involved it didn't quite affect them enough.

As to the question of agency, that's nonsense. The BDS call has come from the Palestinian people and one to reason to support it, even if you think it a flawed set of tactics, is that it is respecting their agency.

As for an exact repeat of South Africa? Of course, not. Who knows?

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Akshay, you seem to be advocating that a moral capitalism will be enough to end Israeli oppression. By agreeing with the statement that encouraging 'companies to use their economic influence to pressure Israel to end its systematic denial of Palestinian rights', you are saying that asking the bourgeoisie for sympathy is the only way to end imperialism. At best this is a reformist band-aid to cover the cause of imperialist oppression.

I understand that simply saying 'transnational communist revolution' on the internet isn't going to destroy the system of oppression that Palestinian and Israeli workers are forced to live under but neither is simply advocating liberal means with which to sanction the 'bad' capitalism. Recently I participated in a music gig to raise money for solar panels for a Palestinian hospital. It's not going to bring down the Israeli state but it might make some folks in Palestine a little more comfortable and it's ridiculous not to do these things but I also have the understanding that the only way to end the imperialist oppression of the Israeli state would be for Palestinian and Israeli workers to stop pandering to the bourgeoisie and organise things for themselves.

[blake 3:17]

If you want to support Palestinians from where you live, spread awareness of their situation, and protest against the US (or what country you live in) giving military aid to Israel, but boycotting Israeli products is liberal and individualist nonsense spreading illusions about "consumer influence". Same reason I don't walk around screaming "Buy FairTrade!"

The BDS movement calls for an arms sanction on Israel. Policies and some news can be found here: http://www.bdsmovement.net/activecamps/military-embargo

And how come all you critics of BDS only talk about the B?

Edited to add: @GMM -- that's great!!! As for class unity? It'd be nice, but given the extreme racism of the Israeli workers movement and the phenomenally high unemployment for Palestinians and the gross inequalities, let's not hold our breaths.

[barbelo]

Wow, Devrim, I'm always impressed by your posts and how clear and sound your ideas are.
Threads about Israel always annoy me- because it's an endless discussion where no one will ever change his opinion- and I end writing some polemical shit, then ignoring 80% of the people.

You said that the major movement of change, if the change so desired by certain people would happen, need to come from Palestinians instead of foreign actors. This is something I also think myself, specially when I asked in random thread about israel nº1557 here why neither Palestinian Authority (post-Fayyad) and Hamas issue an autonomous currency, or try to build a scratch of economy, in spite of the israeli occupation. Or what kind of priorities these guys have.
It isn't so hard to imagine a situation where people in the West Bank start arming themselves and making Israeli presence difficult and costly; both diplomatic and economically. Yet the frustration doesn't grow into this for decades. This smells like adequation and conformity to me.
Not to mention the Palestinians in Israel, a great part who doesn't even identity themselves as Palestinians or with any of the causes.

You either treat your enemy kindly or you crush him completely, goes the saying, and BDS is one of the things that arises when you don't crush.
One more step in the siege mentality and future escalation of things.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Apartheid in South Africa ended because the South African regime was no longer needed and had long been an embarrassment. It's no coincidence that the apartheid state in South Africa, as well as a host of other fucked up states, fell around the same time during the tail end of the Cold War.

If we're talking specifically about the resistance movement within South Africa, though, I would say that the international solidarity network around the issue of anti-apartheid was a significant element in that struggle & was somewhat important.

[barbelo]

Let's imply the external pressure works on Israel and that the Israeli government actually control the settlers, what would happen in the best situation?
Israel would retreate from the West Bank.
Would you still say they are opressing Palestinians? The ones inside Israel or the ones in Gaza and West Bank?
If inside Israel, they are far from being opressed. Yada, yada, you all heard it before, they are able to participate in politics (unlike copts in Egypt or jews in Iran i.e.), they are able to study in universities and they are not required to serve in the army. In coutless queries they said they prefer living in Israel and do not wish to be Palestinians citzens, unlike druzes of Golan in relation to Syria. So the struggle would be for a people that doesn't want it.
If outside Israel, wouldn't this opression of Palestinians be now on a state versus state basis? Like a war? Wouldn't it happen determined by how well the Palestinian state protect its citzens? Why should a socialist support one of these states? Then come moralists arguments, which sounds very strange in the context of class conflict. Moral high ground is subjective, emotional, something you can well achieve with media, diplomacy, lobbies, public events, intrusion in political movements, ongs... Is this happening right now?

And why people are so obcessed with using South Africa as an example? South Africa is a paradise? Last time I heard of every 3 in 10 south africans have HIV and many of them were fleeing the country yearly even to São Paulo (Brazil), fed up with crime, kidnapping and corruption.
Palestinians and Israelis would live together peacefully you say? Nothing as betting life, security and well being in such a wishful thinking. Even better when it isn't your life.

[cyu]

You either treat your enemy kindly or you crush him completely


Depends how you define "enemy" - if my neighbor is attacking me, is his mother-in-law my enemy? Those who believe in collective punishment, in effect, say "Yes".

If your "enemy" is caught in the act of trying to kill you or anybody else you feel like protecting, then it might be a good idea to kill him first. That basically falls under self-defense. Other than that, if you can't really tell if he's trying to kill you or just going shopping - in which case, he would be no different than seeing a Texas Cowboy cheerleader, a Mongol on horseback, or a group of Japanese photographers walking the streets.

Of course, "crime" and "punishment" has never been just a binary between execution and tolerance. There's a whole spectrum in between. If there's no direct need to kill the "enemy" immediately, there's lots of other alternatives.

If you want to "win" a two-player game, you only have to worry about the reactions of the other person. If you try to apply the same strategies to a multi-player game, thinking it's only about you and your "enemy", then strategies that may have been successful in a two-player game will turn out to be short-sighted and naive in a multi-player game.

[RedMaterialist]

Apartheid in South Africa ended because the South African regime was no longer needed and had long been an embarrassment. It's no coincidence that the apartheid state in South Africa, as well as a host of other fucked up states, fell around the same time during the tail end of the Cold War.


Another factor was the victory of the socialist (at least nominally) government in Angola against the Unita rebels. Soviet and Cuban troops were in Angola and it was obvious that South Africa would be next. The whites in South Africa made the best deal they could. The blacks got political control but only a piece of the economic profits.

The ANC made the mistake that Marx warned the Paris Commune about: the working class cannot simply take hold of the government in place at the time of the revolution; it must destroy the existing state and replace it with a dictatorship of the working class. The whites in South Africa allowed the blacks and the "coloured" to take hold of the state, but they kept the economic power for themselves.

[barbelo]

Depends how you define "enemy" - if my neighbor is attacking me, is his mother-in-law my enemy?

This is exactly the point of the saying and the reason why british imperialism was so successful with their killing camps. Your neighbor's brother will hold a grudge against you, his mother-in-law will educate her children to hate you, his father'll want revenge, etc.
Just picture the scene in early 50's: Arafat is merely an egyptian member of the muslim brotherhood, there isn't a palestinian movement or identity yet, and Jordan, Syria and Egypt are looking to annex Israel, which is barely able to build an economy. It's amazing how the paradigm can shift.

I wasn't talking that palestinians should be punished or "crushed" in the present, only stating that current Israeli diplomatic situation- exactly for the reason you mentioned: middle east isn't a two player game, but a whole field of competing interests- comes from not doing this in the past, for choosing alternatives.

[Os Cangaceiros]

^ so is what you're saying is that the best solution for the Israelis would've been a mass forced deportation of all the Arabs living in their state, or kill them all, or what? That would really be the only way to "crush" the problem.

[barbelo]

Yes.
And denying this would be denying humanity history, unless you believe something happened with us in the immediate past that made wars obsolete and which is highly unlikely seeing the situation in middle east right now.

Doubt it? Just see a list of peoples and ethnicities who disappeared (many of them inside soviet union). Or better, just see a list of modern african wars.
Israelis at least know what await them in the case of an egyptian or syrian occupied Israel, the same fate of the pile of bones the Egyptian gave back to Israel after the Sinai war in the place of their POWs

Edit: I'm not preaching for mass extermination, just stating how hopeless and dead-lock is the Israeli-Arab conflict, an incomplete occupation, an incomplete liberation.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Israel would still have to contend with it's neighbors in the region, even if it deported/killed all of the Arabs in Israel.

The solution to the situation (within the context of capitalism) seems obvious to me, it's a secular democratic state that isn't an ethnocracy, and gives completely equal status to citizens of the state regardless of religious or national background. This is what the Palestinian nationalists like Habash and the early PLO wanted, not the extermination of all Jews in Israel or whatever.

[barbelo]

Israel would still have to contend with it's neighbors in the region, even if it deported/killed all of the Arabs in Israel.

Like they contended, only with more depth and freedom of action, and less missiles, less concessions?


The solution to the situation (within the context of capitalism) seems obvious to me, it's a secular democratic state that isn't an ethnocracy, and gives completely equal status to citizens of the state regardless of religious or national background.And here we come to the same proposition seen a hundred times.
How feasible is this?
The reality of Israel: people belongings such as bags are checked even when entering a mall. The reality of West Bank: separate highways for separate peoples. The reality of Gaza: Even foreign palestinian activists are killed by extremists.
When Israel/Palestine ends being an ethnocracy, it begins being an ethnical-sectarian civil war. From this to an external power invasion, intervention and occupation it's a small step, and it's how this region history happened.
Even discussing this is pointless, you can't force two peoples by external pressure or external desire alone to open their securities and let their families be killed, and this proposition isn't on anyone agenda, support for this in Israel is incredibly small (post-90's context, post-zionism, post Sharon, etc) and support for this in Palestine is only illusionary, maintained by foreign donation while every palestinian actually want Hamas to take over the West Bank.

[cyu]

what you're saying is that the best solution for the Israelis would've been a mass forced deportation of all the Arabs living in their state, or kill them all, or what? That would really be the only way to "crush" the problem.


Not really going to work, since it's still seeing it as a 2 player game of Jews & Arabs. All that would do is galvanize the rest of the world to start attacking the "New Hitlers".

[blake 3:17]

Edit: I'm not preaching for mass extermination, just stating how hopeless and dead-lock is the Israeli-Arab conflict, an incomplete occupation, an incomplete liberation.

Please clarify. Thanks.