Party Organization instead of Gangs.

[Einkarl]

This might be a dumb question.



Since, for reasons we are all aware, the crippling effect of poverty in poor communities lead many proletarians to join criminal gangs or simply to participate violent crime as a method to escape or make some money (or what have you), instead of joining a working class party or organization.

Currently I live in the US, where this is common but it is even more severe. Mexico (DF area) from where I come this problem is quite common. It isn't at all uncommon to get mugged or assaulted. I hailed from a relatively safe neighborhood and friends tell me they've gotten mugged several times and This issue is only going to get worse.

Why isn't organization common or effective in such areas?
And how do solve these problems?

[The Douche]

Why would I join a political organization instead of a criminal organization? Crime pays, it puts food on the table, can the party do that?

[Ele'ill]

Why isn't organization common or effective in such areas?

because the organization itself isn't effective, is it effective anywhere?

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

What The Douche says makes a lot of sense. Most typical forms of crime are an immediate way of getting gains as you know that there is a win/lose chance when executing a crime.

However, party organisation is a more long term method of achieving something and mainstream parties hardly achieve anything immediate and/or radical, if anything at all.

[Comrade #138672]

Maybe the Left fails because we focus too much on education, propaganda and agitation, and thereby lose sight of the most basic things: the means of survival, like food, shelter, etc.

Maybe we just got lost in the superstructure of bourgeois society. Should we make a return to the base?

Maybe our propaganda sounds better on a full stomach.

[Crabbensmasher]

Take a look at the Black Panther Party
They had political intentions, but there were enormous drug scandals within the organization. Eventually, they gained as much notoriety as any other criminal group. Not to mention the police would be a million times harsher on any political organization. Compared to them, criminal gangs were small fish.
They'll deal with murderers and rapists on the streets, but as soon as you criticize the state, then you're fucked.

[GiantMonkeyMan]

Take a look at the Black Panther Party
They had political intentions, but there were enormous drug scandals within the organization. Eventually, they gained as much notoriety as any other criminal group.
I'm not sure if that's a very good understanding of the history of the Black Panther party. The drugs and illegal guns that the Panthers got their hands on were largely funnelled their way by the FBI; an attempt to criminalise the organisation and arrest their leaders. The reason the state was so worried about the Panthers was because they weren't just a revolutionary political group willing to resort to violence to achieve their goals but one that was educating the people in their neighbourhoods, setting up soup kitchens for the homeless and organising within workplaces for equal treatment and wages. If an organisation isn't doing these things then they'll divorce themselves from the material needs of the working class.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

I'm not sure if that's a very good understanding of the history of the Black Panther party. The drugs and illegal guns that the Panthers got their hands on were largely funnelled their way by the FBI; an attempt to criminalise the organisation and arrest their leaders. The reason the state was so worried about the Panthers was because they weren't just a revolutionary political group willing to resort to violence to achieve their goals but one that was educating the people in their neighbourhoods, setting up soup kitchens for the homeless and organising within workplaces for equal treatment and wages. If an organisation isn't doing these things then they'll divorce themselves from the material needs of the working class.

Precisely, examples would be the Free Breakfast for Children program or the fact that the Black Panthers used to watch black ghettos that would have discriminatory police patrolling them, tailing those policemen and providing each arrested citizen with on-the-spot law advice.

We don't have enough far left groups or unions using these replacement methods. Wouldn't it be fantastic if teachers in the UK went on strike for a number of weeks BUT at the same time continued to educate children. That would give a pretty important short term message to the government.

[Craig_J]

Precisely, examples would be the Free Breakfast for Children program or the fact that the Black Panthers used to watch black ghettoes that would have discriminatory police patrolling them, tailing those policemen and providing each arrested citizen with on-the-spot law advice.

We don't have enough far left groups or unions using these replacement methods. Wouldn't it be fantastic if teachers in the UK went on strike for a number of weeks BUT at the same time continued to educate children. That would give a pretty important short term message to the government.

I agree. This would be a very good stratergy that could earn a lot of support.

[Ravachol]

I hope some leftist fool tries to spread the good word of "building the party-movement" among the foot soldiers of the Sinaloa cartel or the carribian mob in the French HLMs :rolleyes:

Besides, virtually all existing political organisations are rackets of one type or the other anyway, be it the competing factions of capital's (aspiring) management or be it the leftist rackets and their frenzied drive for the primitive accumulation of cadres. The difference is that gangs actually provide what cosplaying "the party" doesn't: an ad-hoc form of organisation that functions as a business unit while basing itself on the informal ties of neighborhood and family/friendship. It's simply a form to organize the activity a segment of the proletariat that is (partially or fully) ejected from the productive sphere on the informal market. Nobody cares about 'Party Organization' and right they are.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

Why would I join a political organization instead of a criminal organization? Crime pays, it puts food on the table, can the party do that?

Why can't the party do that?

Is not the confiscation of stolen surplus labor the finest point in class struggle? The act where we take back the product of years of meaningless toil?

[melvin]

Is not the confiscation of stolen surplus labor the finest point in class struggle? The act where we take back the product of years of meaningless toil?you can make immediate money selling coke and taking GPS's from cars to sell, as opposed to joining a political organization advocating a revolution that will not put food on your table today.

with that being said...


Why would I join a political organization instead of a criminal organization? Crime pays, it puts food on the table, can the party do that?I'm obviously not going to ask if you're in a gang or going to imply that you are, so don't take this to be directed at you, but no radical leftist should join gangs that commit crimes that victimize.

[Die Neue Zeit]

Why would I join a political organization instead of a criminal organization? Crime pays, it puts food on the table, can the party do that?

Party-organized food banks?


Why can't the party do that?

Is not the confiscation of stolen surplus labor the finest point in class struggle? The act where we take back the product of years of meaningless toil?

There are more meaningful ways to meet the material needs of the broader class, and unless there's a natural disaster or something else that encourages mass looting of food supplies, this isn't a productive avenue.


I hope some leftist fool tries to spread the good word of "building the party-movement" among the foot soldiers of the Sinaloa cartel or the carribian mob in the French HLMs :rolleyes:

I'm in, wise guy. Spontaneists' tried, tested, and failed methods, if any at all, keep being tried, being tested, and ultimately failing. :glare:


The difference is that gangs actually provide what cosplaying "the party" doesn't: an ad-hoc form of organisation that functions as a business unit while basing itself on the informal ties of neighborhood and family/friendship.

Other than the obvious ad-hoc failures, why can't there be non-profit "business units" that build class-based political support on the informal ties of neighborhood, family, and friendship? Oh, right, next you'll dismiss this class-based political organizing as "patronage." :glare:

[Let's Get Free]

Most criminal activities (larceny, burglary, robbery, selling drugs, etc) is a form of self-employment that fills the vacuum created by the lack of jobs. I think we need to take seriously the fact that most of humanity is in a different situation than footloose students and intellectuals, and is necessarily preoccupied with economic survival.

[Sasha]

what? no "helluva sick communist street gang" reference yet? I'm disappoint...

[Os Cangaceiros]

Most criminal activities (larceny, burglary, robbery, selling drugs, etc) is a form of self-employment that fills the vacuum created by the lack of jobs. I think we need to take seriously the fact that most of humanity is in a different situation than footloose students and intellectuals, and is necessarily preoccupied with economic survival.

I think it's also important to remember that there are non-career criminals in even the most impoverished communities, and these people are often the targets of opportunistic criminal elements who rob and extort from them on a regular basis. They may be the products of capitalism, but I don't really have any sympathy at all for the truly predatory criminals who are more than happy to victimize easy targets, nor do I think they're progressive or potentially revolutionary in any way, shape or form.

[The Douche]

Why can't the party do that?

Why don't you tell me why the party doesn't do that?


I'm obviously not going to ask if you're in a gang or going to imply that you are, so don't take this to be directed at you, but no radical leftist should join gangs that commit crimes that victimize.

1) I'm not involved in any sort of criminal organization. 2) I am not a "radical leftist". 3) While I agree it would be hard for somebody to rationalize being a communist and hurting other poor/disenfranchised people, there have, historically, been many criminal organizations who existed to prey upon, and victimize the wealthy, some of whom even did so with a revolutionary perspective, supporting not only themselves with their crime, but supporting radical projects.




Nobody cares about 'Party Organization' and right they are.

I dunno about that. I'd wonder what sort of progress we're making if we're not building the party?


what? no "helluva sick communist street gang" reference yet? I'm disappoint...

*hella sick ;)1

And some of us who really did have such conceptions about organization, still are close to each other and still do carry on in a similar fashion.

[Jimmie Higgins]

If people aren't organizing themselves anyway, why would gang members be different than any other group of workers? Hell, pro-union workers are hardly organizing themselves as opposed to passivly supporting a union (that they probably think should be doing things differently).

So definately part of it is a perception of what's possible. People don't think things will change, many don't think they can get decent employment let alone employment that will lead to any kind of comfort or stability; on the other hand many people have to have some kind of hussle anyway and many people know that if the government, bosses, schools, and family aren't going to have their back, street-gangs will - or at least often claim they will.

The other part of it is that on the larger level (beyond just the street or part of town), organized crime is - organized. More than that it's more rooted in communities than leftists; people are recruted in schools, neighborhoods, and prisons.

It's unlikely that just going out and talking to people is going to do more than make a small dent or begin to "root" us in a particular location. This is something worth doing, but I don't think it makes sense to specifically go after recruiting gang members, or counter-recruiting people from gangs - just going out and organizing in general is valuable... though limited.

But in the 1960s/70s, there were induvidual gang members and even whole neighborhood street gangs who "radicalized". Some regional Panther groups were started by ex-street gang members and the Young Lords in Chicago (in NYC I think it was radicalized Latino college students) grew out of a street-gang who saw what the Panthers were doing - a political organization of the block - as a vaiable alternative. Some of this happened because street-gangs were different back then and had less connection to a way of making an actual living (because if you lived in a city you could probably get a factory job and maybe even a small house eventually), but I think it also has to do with wider radicalization in society and the existance of other movements showing that self-organization was actually something that could make an impact and help people change their lives.

Here's a trailer to a documentary that's sort of related to the connection between politics and US street-gangs. I think the full movie is on YouTube or streaming on Netflix:

uGvDxGYZ3gI

[melvin]

1) I'm not involved in any sort of criminal organization.if you were it would be hilarious to admit so on the internet.


2) I am not a "radical leftist".I said that that post was not directed specifically at you, but since you interpreted it that way, I kinda doubt you're not something that wouldn't fall under the category of radical left.


3) While I agree it would be hard for somebody to rationalize being a communist and hurting other poor/disenfranchised people, there have, historically, been many criminal organizations who existed to prey upon, and victimize the wealthy, some of whom even did so with a revolutionary perspective, supporting not only themselves with their crime, but supporting radical projects.well yeah. I think it goes without saying that criminal organizations that victimize the ruling class are a bit different than the standard gang.