China: Socialist or Fascist?

[Nikolay]

I wrote an essay on the Korean War a few days ago. And my teacher, who is my history teacher, had an interview with me to discuss my progress (he does this with everyone). And while reading my essay he told me out of the blue that China is a nationalist-fascist authoritarian republic. Now, I know for sure that China isn't socialist, but from my understanding, it's not fascist either. It seems to be more like a state-capitalist and one-party state.

Would you agree with my teacher, or do you think China is something else?

[evermilion]

It isn't fascist. Fascism has a very specific class character. It's bourgeois nationalist, no doubt about it, but it isn't fascist for its militarism.

[Akshay!]

Neither.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

I'd think that state capitalist is the best way to go. But fascism isn't really a massive jump. One core component of fascism is that it tends to occur after a revolutionary wave fails. There was already an attempt to overthrow the Chinese ruling class during the Cultural Revolution, and every Chinese remembers Mao's dying wish that Dengists should be overthrown. This is why the consolidation of power by Deng's faction coincided with mass arrests in the 80's, forced-decollectivization most of which was imposed violently, and the removal of the protections of assembly in the constitution that the Chinese had during the cultural revolution. So I'd say that it is fair to say that the current regime is fascist in this regard.

[billydan]

my grandfather was in the Korean war he was stationed in japan

[Geiseric]

Most people are employed by the state so i don't think technically its state capitalism a la FDR or Kaiser Frederick (who the term was originally coined for). Also every capitalism depends on the state for its survival so that term doesn't really apply scientifically for any society. Unless the bailouts done by the U.S. gov isn't state capitalism. Or every single imperialist war for that matter. They have 51% if the country working for the state which means their dominant economic laws contradict with the foreign investments made in the country. The main decisions are made by state economic bureaucrats which makes it a degenerated workers state.

[melvin]

for one, there are no countries that aren't nationalist. so when people talk about a country being nationalist, it's a bit redundant.

but no. china is not a fascist country.

[Craig_J]

I think at most you could call it an oligarchy as the people who are "elected" have to be friendly with the right people in the military.

[Geiseric]

for one, there are no countries that aren't nationalist. so when people talk about a country being nationalist, it's a bit redundant.

but no. china is not a fascist country.

Exactly just like the question of whether or not capitalism is supported by the state. It is in every capitalist country.

The question with china is who has more control of the economy, the state bureaucracy/trade union apparatus which is completely undemocratic, or the capitalists who manage the privately owned sectors of the economy. The state management does which makes the economy as a whole as capitalist as the NHS or social security, if we apply the principles of state ownership to the entire economy.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Capitalist autocracy.

[ibuylocal]

Chinese wage slavery is the degenerate reality behind the curtain of western consumer culture. There is nothing remotely socialist about the way that country operates.

[Asmo]

From my understanding its economy is quite similar to Gilded Age Capitalism in America. There's lots of export, there is a lack of labor regulation, there is a huge class gap, and the government is saturated by capitalists. Politically it looks like the later USSR with a large, corrupt, and inept single (in practice) party system with thousands of kilometers of red tape. Socially apart from the above influencing society it looks like China, with its very interesting distinct culture. The Proletariat is clearly not class-conscious and certainly does not control the modes of production, and therefore China is not a Socialist country. Fascism cannot be used to describe it because the socio-economic power is not entirely concentrated in the way it was in Fascist Italy, Germany, or Spain, and it has a few resemblances to Leftist ideology buried in the bureaucracy.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Bonapartist though without the military rule aspect.

[Ocean Seal]

Neither, stop throwing words around. Fascism is pretty specific for an ideology. China is weird and its changing everyday, its some kind of capitalism.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

China isn't weird at all. It's exactly what is to be expected - pure, unadulterated capitalism. Anyone who argues otherwise is nothing short of insane or brainwashed.

[tuwix]

I wrote an essay on the Korean War a few days ago. And my teacher, who is my history teacher, had an interview with me to discuss my progress (he does this with everyone). And while reading my essay he told me out of the blue that China is a nationalist-fascist authoritarian republic. Now, I know for sure that China isn't socialist, but from my understanding, it's not fascist either. It seems to be more like a state-capitalist and one-party state.

Would you agree with my teacher, or do you think China is something else?


I'd agree very much with your teacher. If you define political from its origin of word (capitalism from capital – the system where capital rules; socialism from society - the system where society rules), China isn't neither socialist nor capitalist state. The oligarchy (fasci from Italian union; in this case union of oligarchy of so-called communist party) rules in China. There is no monarch, then fascism is logical choice.

[evermilion]

I'd agree very much with your teacher. If you define political from its origin of word (capitalism from capital – the system where capital rules; socialism from society - the system where society rules), China isn't neither socialist nor capitalist state. The oligarchy (fasci from Italian union; in this case union of oligarchy of so-called communist party) rules in China. There is no monarch, then fascism is logical choice.

This completely ignores the class character of fascism.

[tuwix]

A class system isn't reserved only to capitalism. I'd like to remind that fuedalism has its class system too.

[evermilion]

A class system isn't reserved only to capitalism. I'd like to remind that fuedalism has its class system too.

I'm honestly not sure what that has to do with the class character of fascism.

[tuwix]

There are different kinds of fascism as different kinds of capitalism. There is difference between what is in Austria and USA but bot have capitalist systems. In terms of fascism, I think there is no return to what was done in 30's in Italy and Germany. But there are still modern fascist states. Russia and China are the graetest of them.

But it's only my opinion. There is no need to care about it.

[Jimmie Higgins]

I'd agree that it's capitalist, state-capitalist specifically. The Economist did a whole issue on China's state-capitalism in fact, touting the ability of China to achieve better growth in many ways through long-term state (capitalist) planning. If austerity-neoliberalism doesn't help other economies to have the growth they want, I wouldn't be surprised if China's model begins to be adopted elsewhere more.


I'd agree very much with your teacher. If you define political from its origin of word (capitalism from capital – the system where capital rules; socialism from society - the system where society rules), China isn't neither socialist nor capitalist state. The oligarchy (fasci from Italian union; in this case union of oligarchy of so-called communist party) rules in China. There is no monarch, then fascism is logical choice.I don't think this sort of description would help us understand what's going on in various countries. Mexico had a one-party state for decades but few would have called it "fascism" in the sense of the countries and movements usually described as fascist. The US has a political monopoly of two parties which is probably just as homogenous as the one party in China (which has factions and political differences just like there are differences between and within the Democrats or Republicans).

While China can be very repressive, there's also been a strike-wave going on and I can't imagine the same thing happening in a true fascist state.

[tuwix]

IMHO it is crucial who does rule. In Mexico nor USA bourgeoisie rules and ruled. That means capital rules. In China and Russia bourgeoisie doesn't rule. And we can't even call it state capitalism because state doesn't own majority means of production. And in classic fascist state it just happened. Means of production in its majority belonged to bourgeoisie but bourgeoisie didn't influence the central authorities to say that bourgeoisie rules. As well as in present Russia and China.

[Jimmie Higgins]

IMHO it is crucial who does rule. In Mexico nor USA bourgeoisie rules and ruled. That means capital rules. In China and Russia bourgeoisie doesn't rule. And we can't even call it state capitalism because state doesn't own majority means of production. And in classic fascist state it just happened. Means of production in its majority belonged to bourgeoisie but bourgeoisie didn't influence the central authorities to say that bourgeoisie rules. As well as in present Russia and China.Capitalism doesn't need capitalists to rule directly. Most of the time beurocrats do the social ruling (politicians) and even in business, it's executive sorts of beurocracts (who would still be considered part of the bourgoise though) not the actual top of the top who make decisions.

Since the great revolution in France, it's happened pretty regularly that non-bourgois groups actually organize society for capitalism. This happened with Germany in the late 1800s, in Japan it was feudal castes who helped create capitalist relations in order to compete with western capitalists, in Russia it was party beurocrats.

I think fascism arises in specific conditions where the ruling order can't maintain stability but the working class is too weak or disorganized to replace it. This is why it tends to be so brutal because once they take power they also have to smash all opposition to "restore order". China seems to me to be something totally different than that sort of situation - they have used the state to help direct modernization of the economy and attract investments and so on, rather than privite capitalist entities.

[Per Levy]

They have 51% if the country working for the state which means their dominant economic laws contradict with the foreign investments made in the country.

how does it contradict itself though? i mean state and private capital live together in harmony in china, working together for max profits.


The main decisions are made by state economic bureaucrats which makes it a degenerated workers state.

no it doesnt, the "communist" party allows the bourgeoisie to be member of said "communist" party, the country and all companies are run in capitalist fashion are they private or state owned. your beloved bureaucrats enrich themselfs on the backs of the workers just as any manager in a privatly owned company, so whats your point exactly? and the "degenerated workers state", no one but trots use this phrase and i wonder if trostky would've been ok with using this phrase to describe all states that waved a red flag at one point, since he only coined the ussr to be that.

[Bostana]

It's not fascist, and it's not socialist.

China is capitalist, despite popular belief of Americans who have been brainwashed with a nice western education. The workers there are treated like they are in any other 3rd or 2nd world country, and it is perfectly clear that there is classes and class antagonisms there. Let's look at the 14 points of fascism (http://rense.com/general37/char.htm) to see what is concludes as to the fascism in china
1.China is somewhat in the middle of nationalism, which is something the government uses to keep it's people under control.
2.They do disdain human rights.
3. I've never been to China so i wouldn't now if the propagate some enemy. I assume they use the U.S., as the U.S. does China.
4.They do glamorize their military
5.They're not sexist......they treat female workers as bad as the male workers
6.The media is the same as the United State's, more or less.
7.Again, never been to China, so I've not a clue how they are as far as National security goes.
8. Religion and government are not intertwined
9. Cooperate power is protected.
10. Labor power is suppressed.
11. I don't think they have discontent for for Intellectuals and the Arts
12. I don't think they have an obsession with crime and punishment. As far as I know
13. Corrupt, yes.
14. Fraudulent elections, most likely.

After reviewing this points, I don't think China is fascist.

[Tim Cornelis]

It's not fascist, and it's not socialist.

China is capitalist, despite popular belief of Americans who have been brainwashed with a nice western education. The workers there are treated like they are in any other 3rd or 2nd world country, and it is perfectly clear that there is classes and class antagonisms there. Let's look at the 14 points of fascism (http://rense.com/general37/char.htm) to see what is concludes as to the fascism in china
1.China is somewhat in the middle of nationalism, which is something the government uses to keep it's people under control.
2.They do disdain human rights.
3. I've never been to China so i wouldn't now if the propagate some enemy. I assume they use the U.S., as the U.S. does China.
4.They do glamorize their military
5.They're not sexist......they treat female workers as bad as the male workers
6.The media is the same as the United State's, more or less.
7.Again, never been to China, so I've not a clue how they are as far as National security goes.
8. Religion and government are not intertwined
9. Cooperate power is protected.
10. Labor power is suppressed.
11. I don't think they have discontent for for Intellectuals and the Arts
12. I don't think they have an obsession with crime and punishment. As far as I know
13. Corrupt, yes.
14. Fraudulent elections, most likely.

After reviewing this points, I don't think China is fascist.

The 14 points of fascism are a bunch of nonsense anyway. They are formulated with the intention to show, "omg, Bush is a proto-fascist!".