How do YOU define a state?

[Fourth Internationalist]

It seems to me that the biggest difference in the whole anarchism versus Marxism debate is on the issue of the state. However, it seems each side uses a different definition. So, by some of these definitions, many anarchists are statists (so, they're also Marxists?), and by others, Marxists are anti-statists (so, they're also anarchists?). How do you define the state? Why? Any other thoughts on the anarchism versus Marxism debate and the issue of the state?

[TheRedAnarchist23]

You know how I define a state, but I am going to post it here again, because I feel really good today!

A state is an authoritarian institution that opresses the working classes for the ruling classes.

[Dear Leader]

An organ of class suppression.

[Kamo's Parrot]

The state is an organ of class rule, an organ of oppression by one class over another. It is the creation of an "order" which legalizes and perpetuates this oppression by moderating the conflicts between classes. State is abstract. It's also adaptable (i.e. it's various forms throughout history).

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

The state is an institution of dominance and repression when in the hands of those who seek to thrive on a person's labour without giving much in return.

It can be used to benefit the working class if the power vested in it is (almost equally) diffused between as many people as possible.

For this I'm using Marx's Dictatorship of the Proletariat, in the sense of a form of popular government, featuring revocable election of councillors and maximum public participation in governance, which looks like direct democracy - an entire social class is the state, not one class over another.

[canto-faire]

One problem I have with the word "State" is not the splitting of hairs between Marxists, Anarchists, and other Leftists, it's the fact that it means something wildly different for us, and the rest of society.

For us, the fact that the State is a product of class antagonisms, and is used by one class to oppress another, is so tightly wound up in our understanding we don't even think about it. It's part of any leftist definition of the State.

For the rest of the world, it just means the political organization that maintains law and order. Any society with a justice system more complicated than random vigilante lynchings has a "state" of some sort.

[Marxaveli]

An organ of class suppression.

Pretty much this.

Although as far as Anarchists vs. Marxists go on the issue of the state, its my understanding one of the fundamental differences comes from their view of the state's origins. For Anarchists, class oppression exists because of the state, whereas for Marxists the state is the result of the development of class antagonist systems. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

For Anarchists, class oppression exists because of the state

I don't know where you got that idea from, but I have never seen any anarchist say that.

[RedMaterialist]

" In reality, however, the state is nothing but a machine for the oppression of one class by another, and indeed in the democratic republic no less than in the monarchy." Engels.

The socialist, proletariat state goes one step further: After the destruction of the capitalist state, the proletariat state then oppresses, suppresses and destroys the capitalist class. Once this has been achieved, but only in a world wide proletariat state, then the "state" will wither away.

[Fourth Internationalist]

One problem I have with the word "State" is not the splitting of hairs between Marxists, Anarchists, and other Leftists, it's the fact that it means something wildly different for us, and the rest of society.

For us, the fact that the State is a product of class antagonisms, and is used by one class to oppress another, is so tightly wound up in our understanding we don't even think about it. It's part of any leftist definition of the State.

For the rest of the world, it just means the political organization that maintains law and order. Any society with a justice system more complicated than random vigilante lynchings has a "state" of some sort.

I've thought about this also. So by some definitions, communism does have a state.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

I've thought about this also. So by some definitions, communism does have a state.
No. A state requires a ruling class, implying multiple classes. Communism is classless; its' impossible to have a state in the marxist sense of the word.

[Fourth Internationalist]

No. A state requires a ruling class, implying multiple classes. Communism is classless; its' impossible to have a state in the marxist sense of the word.

That's kinda why I was not refering to the Marxist definiton. My whole point was that by a non-leftist definition, their would be a state.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

A set of social institutions (legislative, executive and judicial) that together forms the basis of class rule by passing/making laws and enforcing law and order; it is almost always maneouvred to defend capital. It is managed by a political strata who, for many reasons which would need elaborating upon, tend to side with capital against labour.

[Tim Cornelis]

That's kinda why I was not refering to the Marxist definiton. My whole point was that by a non-leftist definition, their would be a state.

Not necessarily, hunter-gatherer bands had customary law and are universally regarded as stateless.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Not necessarily, hunter-gatherer bands had customary law and are universally regarded as stateless.

A tribe could be considered a state by some definitions.

[RedMaterialist]

No. A state requires a ruling class, implying multiple classes. Communism is classless; its' impossible to have a state in the marxist sense of the word.

The ruling "Marxist" class will be the dictatorship of the proletariat; the suppressed class is the capitalist class (which will not go gently into that good night.) Once the world capitalist class is destroyed, then, and only then, will the state wither away.

[Brutus]

A tribe could be considered a state by some definitions.

You aren't Saying which definitions! Or do you intend to cloud your posts in ambiguity?

[Brutus]

The ruling "Marxist" class will be the dictatorship of the proletariat; the suppressed class is the capitalist class (which will not go gently into that good night.) Once the world capitalist class is destroyed, then, and only then, will the state wither away.

The proletariat abolishes itself as a class also

[evermilion]

The state is organized violence used to protect property.

[Marxaveli]

I don't know where you got that idea from, but I have never seen any anarchist say that.

They don't need to directly say it, since it is implied in most anarchist thought. The very fact most Anarchists oppose 'the dictatorship of the proletariat' is pretty self-evident that they view class distinctions as being a result of the development of the state - which is the complete opposite of how Marxists view the relationship to class society and the state (the state being an organic result of the development of class antagonisms).

[Fourth Internationalist]

You aren't Saying which definitions! Or do you intend to cloud your posts in ambiguity?

Sorry I was referring to the non-leftist definition. Are you no longer confused?

[Brutus]

Sorry I was referring to the non-leftist definition. Are you no longer confused?

That's still rather vague...

[Slavic]

That's still rather vague...
I think User Name is referring to a state as a system that establishes and executes accepted social norms and rules. More of a legalistic view

Previously he stated that states can be defined in such a manner such as the existence of the practice of Law and Order. Law & Order can only be established is the people within the state agree to the accepted Laws and maintain the practice of Order.

With your reference to hunter gatherer tribes being stateless, I think they are lumped into statelesshood because the state is typically seen as being grounded geographically. Hunter/Gatherer tribes still contain a state within themselves, most likely patriarchal since they groups are small, because they agree to norms and laws and how to enforce them.

[BIXX]

Although as far as Anarchists vs. Marxists go on the issue of the state, its my understanding one of the fundamental differences comes from their view of the state's origins. For Anarchists, class oppression exists because of the state, whereas for Marxists the state is the result of the development of class antagonist systems. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.


I do see that state as an organ of class oppression, however, I think that if there are separate classes, then the state will be formed. Conversely, I think if there is a state, then class oppression will arise, or "state-class" oppression (I kinda made that term up cause I didn't know an actual term for it) if the economic system doesn't really have proletariat and bourgeoisie. So the state is a result of class oppression, and class oppression is the result of the state. I fail to see why the "Marxist" and "Anarchist" definitions given by Marxaveli are exclusive of one another.

[Blake's Baby]

They prop each other up certainly but the distiction is in the first cause. For Marxists it's property (which gives rise to classes which in turn give rise to the state), for Anarchists it's 'authority' - the state exists when anyone exercises 'authority' over another.

But what 'authority' means in any given context is debatable. It doesn't include the authority of the bootmaker, for example.

[Nicolas_Cage]

state (stt)
n.
1. A condition or mode of being, as with regard to circumstances: a state of confusion.
2. A condition of being in a stage or form, as of structure, growth, or development: the fetal state.
3. A mental or emotional condition: in a manic state.
4. Informal A condition of excitement or distress.
5. Physics The condition of a physical system with regard to phase, form, composition, or structure: Ice is the solid state of water.
6. Social position or rank.
7. Ceremony; pomp: foreign leaders dining in state at the White House.
8.
a. The supreme public power within a sovereign political entity.
b. The sphere of supreme civil power within a given polity: matters of state.
9. A specific mode of government: the socialist state.
10. A body politic, especially one constituting a nation: the states of Eastern Europe.
11. One of the more or less internally autonomous territorial and political units composing a federation under a sovereign government: the 48 contiguous states of the Union.
adj.
1. Of or relating to a body politic or to an internally autonomous territorial or political unit constituting a federation under one government: a monarch dealing with state matters; the department that handles state security.
2. Owned and operated by a state: state universities.
tr.v. stat·ed, stat·ing, states
To set forth in words; declare.



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[Blake's Baby]

The point about discussion is the interplay of ideas.

Any chance you could display some of yours?