bobby sands died today

[Brutus]

May 5 1981 Bobby sands died whilst on hunger strike

[Dr Doom]

hardly for us to be commemorating dead nationalists is it ? i seriously hate the romanticism a lot of people on the left have for irish republicanism.

[Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist]

"I was only a working-class boy from a Nationalist ghetto, but it is repression that creates the revolutionary spirit of freedom. I shall not settle until I achieve liberation of my country, until Ireland becomes a sovereign, independent socialist republic."
~Bobby Sands

Good bless you Bobby Sands, you were one of the finest men to have ever walked on this earth. If I could be a quarter of the hero you were then I would consider myself honored. One day the people of the world will have their day, and we'll remember how your death wasn't in vain.

[Geiseric]

hardly for us to be commemorating dead nationalists is it ? i seriously hate the romanticism a lot of people on the left have for irish republicanism.

What about James Connoly? Most irish people have a positive view on people like him and Michael Collins I thought.

[blake 3:17]

Much love to Bobby Sands and all those who fight for a better world.

This is from a lovely piece by a friend of Sands published this weekend. Link at bottom.


Released in 1976, he was at liberty for a year and when I met him he was full of enthusiasm about setting up a tenants' association in Twinbrook where he lived. Months later he was arrested on active service and was sentenced to 14 years for possessing one handgun.

But now he was sent to the H-blocks – really just an extension of Long Kesh – because the government had withdrawn "special category status" in an attempt to criminalise the prisoners and the cause of Irish freedom. Here he joined hundreds of others on the "blanket protest" – refusing to wear a prison uniform and call warders "sir". He was beaten regularly and was often in solitary confinement, punished with a bread and water diet (ruled illegal by the European court). After visiting the H-blocks, the Catholic archbishop Cardinal Tomás Ó Fiaich compared the conditions to "the sewer pipes in the slums of Calcutta".

Bobby wrote to me in smuggled letters, sending me his poetry and short stories which I published. Throughout 1980 I visited him weekly as frantic attempts were made to avoid a hunger strike. He had one of the sharpest intellects I have ever come across. In 1981 he and nine comrades could no longer watch the younger prisoners being beaten and felt that they had no option but to hunger strike to the death, to establish in the eyes of the world that they were political prisoners fighting a just cause.

Margaret Thatcher, then prime minister, had said: "How can I talk to them [the prisoners] when they have no support, no mandate?" Yet when Bobby Sands was elected by the people of Fermanagh and South Tyrone, with more votes than Thatcher in Finchley, she became even more intransigent. She refused to negotiate and changed the law to prevent any other prisoner standing for election.

Over a period of seven months nine other men followed Bobby, dying on a hunger strike that Thatcher described as "the IRA's last card". How wrong she was.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/may/05/bobby-sands-1981-hunger-strikes

[Os Cangaceiros]

hardly for us to be commemorating dead nationalists is it ? i seriously hate the romanticism a lot of people on the left have for irish republicanism.

The more I've read on the PIRA, the more I've come to the conclusion that they had a pretty negative impact on the whole social/political environment in Northern Ireland. They weren't the only ones of course, but yeah...I don't really see what's so appealing about them as a group.

[Dr Doom]

What about James Connoly? Most irish people have a positive view on people like him and Michael Collins I thought.

james connolly abandoned socialism in favour of irish nationalism and talk of 'blood sacrafice' in the months before the easter rising, his involvement in the easter rising basically led to the association of 'socialism' in this country with irish nationalism.

even putting all that to one side i still think he was a seriously overrated marxist.

[Dr Doom]

The more I've read on the PIRA, the more I've come to the conclusion that they had a pretty negative impact on the whole social/political environment in Northern Ireland. They weren't the only ones of course, but yeah...I don't really see what's so appealing about them as a group.

well leftists are suckers for 'socialist' rhetoric and guns.

[crazyirish93]

james connolly abandoned socialism in favour of irish nationalism and talk of 'blood sacrafice' in the months before the easter rising, his involvement in the easter rising basically led to the association of 'socialism' in this country with irish nationalism.

even putting all that to one side i still think he was a seriously overrated marxist.
Care to elaborate on why you think he was overrated or are you one of these guys who say Ireland should have stayed in the union and that would have somehow been better for the Irish working class ?

[Dr Doom]

are you one of these guys who say Ireland should have stayed in the union and that would have somehow been better for the Irish working class ?

uh no, im a communist. the anglo-irish treaty hardly resulted in social or economic freedom did it ? nothing changed for irish workers except the accents of their bosses. unless you believe being ruled by irish capitalists and irish politicians has "somehow been better for the Irish working class ?"

[crazyirish93]

Never suggested that so do not put words in my mouth and you have not answered for what reasons you think Connolly abandoned socialism and was a overrated Marxist.

[Dr Doom]

oh i think he abandoned socialism due to the defeat of the 1913 lockout and the lack of socialist opposition to the war. i think if you read his writings from the last two years of his life you can clearly see he had succumbed to nationalism, resulting in the shambles that was the easter rising. i dunno why exactly i feel hes overrated, i just dont think anything he wrote is really worth reading, but people where i live talk about him like a god.

[Sudsy]

Why waste time talking about the ideologies of people fighting an imperialist aggression? These are all worthy topics but not while the freedom fighters haven`t even won their struggle. By the way I`m not calling arms for the IRA because I`m against the fact that they degenerated into murdering civilians.

[Sam_b]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm unlikely to take opinions on anti-imperialism and the struggle in Ireland from someone who can't argue a position for more than two lines.


nothing changed for irish workers except the accents of their bosses.

Except for Catholic workers in the north who were treated worse than second class citizens.

[Dr Doom]

I don't know about anyone else, but I'm unlikely to take opinions on anti-imperialism and the struggle in Ireland from someone who can't argue a position for more than two lines.



Except for Catholic workers in the north who were treated worse than second class citizens.

oh im so sorry bro. your post on the other hand was an incredibly in depth take on the situation in northern ireland and a complete revelation for me. catholic workers discriminated against ? your an absolute fountain of knowledge.

[blake 3:17]

oh im so sorry bro. your post on the other hand was an incredibly in depth take on the situation in northern ireland and a complete revelation for me. catholic workers discriminated against ? your an absolute fountain of knowledge.

In housing & employment & treatment by police. Is that level of injustice sufficient to meet your requirements?

[Dr Doom]

In housing & employment & treatment by police. Is that level of injustice sufficient to meet your requirements?

i think you misunderstood me. i am fully aware of the discrimination catholic workers faced here.

[Sam_b]

So, Dr Doom, if you are "fully aware of the discrimination Catholic workers faced here" (and for the record, it's face, Catholic workers are still discriminated against), how is your assertion that:


nothing changed for irish workers except the accents of their bosses

...a correct one? You've just pointed out that quite a lot changed, particularly for Catholic workers.

We've just published an article on our website (http://internationalsocialist.org.uk/index.php/2013/05/remembering-bobby-sands/)

[Invader Zim]

We've just published an article on our website (http://internationalsocialist.org.uk/index.php/2013/05/remembering-bobby-sands/)

That article is virtually unreadable, I gave up after a few paragraphs. The random application of the comma was particularly grating.

:Edited out an image at the instruction of our glorious Boss - Sam B:

[Dr Doom]

So, Dr Doom, if you are "fully aware of the discrimination Catholic workers faced here" (and for the record, it's face, Catholic workers are still discriminated against)

ehh i think it would be very hard to prove that catholics workers are any more 'oppressed' than their protestant counterparts in the north today. discrimination in employment was endemic prior to direct rule and im sure exists to some extent now but the difference between the likelihood of unemployment between catholic and protestant workers has narrowed dramatically.

maybe you should take a trip down to the shankhill road and see how the 'priviliged' protestant working class lives or show me how i as a 'catholic' worker am discriminated against?



...a correct one? You've just pointed out that quite a lot changed, particularly for Catholic workers.i think you completely missed the point of my post to 'crazyirish93'. he was arguing that the signing of the anglo-irish treaty marked an improvement for the lives of irish workers, i was arguing that it didn't. nonetheless catholic workers in belfast and the rest of the north were treated like dirt prior to 1921, so in the grand scheme of things not much did change.

i'd also like to note that things like gerrymandering and property qualifications also hit working class protestants in a bad way as well as catholics, which is something that a lot of people love to forget.

[Sam_b]

A cartoon you should send to the author

I'm sorry, but not all of our members have had the benefit of being in university academia and had access to a comprehensive education such as yourself. It's kind of to be expected when we are an activist-based organisation that actually does stuff.

You will also be aware of the rules of this forum, which is that in serious parts of the forum you should not be posting cartoons and image macros.

[Vanguard1917]

I'm sorry, but not all of our members have had the benefit of being in university academia and had access to a comprehensive education such as yourself.

I gave it a quick read and it seemed well-written to me. IZ should know better and focus on the substance.

[Invader Zim]

I'm sorry, but not all of our members have had the benefit of being in university academia and had access to a comprehensive education such as yourself. It's kind of to be expected when we are an activist-based organisation that actually does stuff.

You will also be aware of the rules of this forum, which is that in serious parts of the forum you should not be posting cartoons and image macros.

Some underlying contentions in your post:

* People who have not attended a university are incapable of using (or should not be expected to correctly use) a comma.

* It takes a university education to read your own prose outloud.

* It requires a university education to realise that proofreading an article for popular consumption is a good idea.

Fuck off.


It's kind of to be expected when we are an activist-based organisation that actually does stuff.

So all that 'stuff' means that your organisation, by necessity, has to be unprofessional? Yeah, yeah. I get it, proofreading is bourgeois, and the vast amount of high-profile activism your organisation is committed to (the ISG? lol wut) means that y'all are too busy to have respect for your readers. Whatever.




You will also be aware of the rules of this forum, which is that in serious parts of the forum you should not be posting cartoons and image macros.

Right you are, boss.

[crazyirish93]

I did not really argue that the anglo-irish treaty improved the conditions of the working class i was merely asking if you were one the pro union socialists i have encountered before and the treaty did allow social changes in the republic/free state it gave the catholic church huge amounts of influence and power unfortunately.I know i would have much preferred a socialist republic but this what we got for now

[Invader Zim]

I gave it a quick read and it seemed well-written to me. IZ should know better and focus on the substance.

It seemed well written to you, did it? What a glowing endorsement.

As it was, my willingness to get to "the substance" was killed by: the clichéd opening content; the Year Nine prose; and the failure to get to the point after three paragraphs. Perhaps you would care to précis the piece?

[Vanguard1917]

It seemed well written to you, did it? What a glowing endorsement.

As for the content, the prose, and the failure to get to the point after three paragraphs, killed my will to actually get to the substance. Perhaps you would care to précis the piece?

Going out of your way to attack an article for misusing a comma, while saying nothing else, is almost literally nitpicking and quite petty-minded.

[Invader Zim]

Going out of your way to attack an article for misusing a comma, while saying nothing else, is almost literally nitpicking and quite petty-minded.

As I stated, and you apparently did not register, I haven't read the article. I gave up, after only a few paragraphs, because it was too draining. It is obvious that the author has even less respect for his/her audience than you have for facts - quite an achievement.

To be honest, this is probably the wrong place to make this point. But, the failure to write a coherent sentence in 'official' literature only confirms to people that we, the left, are just a bunch of ignorant kids. If we want to be taken seriously then we need to behave in a serious fashion - and no, confusing 'its' and 'it's' does not scream "serious" (which the author does - cue facepalms from readers).

[Vanguard1917]

To be honest, this is probably the wrong place to make this point. But, the failure to write a coherent sentence in 'official' literature only confirms to people that we, the left, are just a bunch of ignorant kids. If we want to be taken seriously then we need to behave in a serious fashion - and no, confusing 'its' and 'it's' does not scream "serious" (which the author does - cue facepalming by any reader).

There are two 'its' errors, but neither of them are in the first few paragraphs, which you claimed to have read exclusively. Yes, editors should take care to avoid 'its-it's' conflations.

[Sam_b]

Some underlying contentions in your post:

* People who have not attended a university are incapable of using (or should not be expected to correctly use) a comma.

* It takes a university education to read your own prose outloud.

* It requires a university education to realise that proofreading an article for popular consumption is a good idea.

Fuck off.

I like how you went back to edit your post in order to tell me to 'fuck off'. Flaming is against the rules. I think the article reads fine, it is however typical of you as a user to go on the attack about things such as grammar from the ivory tower of your university office.

Also, 'outloud' is not one word.

So all that 'stuff' means that your organisation, by necessity, has to be unprofessional?

There is nothing unprofessional about this article. It is however pretty ironic you've jumped into this thread for reasons of trolling rather than actually engaging in the argument that was being had. This is maybe why you have no credibility on these forums.


and the vast amount of high-profile activism your organisation is committed to (the ISG? lol wut)

Nobody mentioned 'high-profile' activism, so again you're being dishonest. Though if we're on the subject, I don't think it's a mean feat for an organisation of our size to have had a leading role in the foundation of Radical Independence Campaign, which was the largest coming together of the Scottish left in years, a significant part of the Scrap Trident coalition, leading members of Unite Communities...

I don't think you have any idea who our readers are, considering they make up the bulk of article contributions.

Now, I suggest you either take this nonsense to PMs, less this thread be split. I think if you want the left 'to behave in a serious fashion' editing your posts to include instructions to 'fuck off' is not a good start.

[Geiseric]

james connolly abandoned socialism in favour of irish nationalism and talk of 'blood sacrafice' in the months before the easter rising, his involvement in the easter rising basically led to the association of 'socialism' in this country with irish nationalism.

even putting all that to one side i still think he was a seriously overrated marxist.

yeah the unions and thousands of working class people who were being raped and shot by the black and tans; who followed him and the IRA during Easter were definately not acting in class interests. What do you propose was the right course of action? Lay belly over and let the british and irish bourgeois apparatus milk you of what you're made of?

[Dr Doom]

yeah the unions and thousands of working class people who were being raped and shot by the black and tans; who followed him and the IRA during Easter were definately not acting in class interests. What do you propose was the right course of action? Lay belly over and let the british and irish bourgeois apparatus milk you of what you're made of?

firstly the ira was formed after the rising. the easter rising was led by pearse and the irish volunteers and connolly and the irish citizens army, with a combined force of about 2000 people. they were never joined by the 'masses' of working class people, who virtually all opposed the rising at the time.

this is what connolly had to say to william o'brien on the day of the rising :

Connolly - "We are going out to be slaughtered."
O'Brien - "Is there no chance of success?"
Connolly "None whatsoever."

if you look at this quote along with the significance of the date and connollys writings prior to the rising it is clear that it was a nationalist blood sacrifice, aided by german imperialism and with pretty much no popular support, which forever contaminated the idea of socialism in ireland with the poison of nationalism.

[Invader Zim]

I like how you went back to edit your post in order to tell me to 'fuck off'. Flaming is against the rules.

Actually, the rules state that "excessive flaming" is verboten. Only two, out of 116, words of my post can be considered 'flame'. Hardly excessive, but you're right. This has gotten way out of hand, largely because of me.


I think the article reads fine, it is however typical of you as a user to go on the attack about things such as grammar from the ivory tower of your university office.

Well, I'm glad you think it reads OK. Really, I am. I hope that everybody else thinks the same and that I've just misread it. It's a false hope because I'm not wrong, but nevertheless... And sorry I told you to fuck off - that was inexcusable.


Also, 'outloud' is not one word.

Well spotted. However, in all seriousness, the difference is I'm not writing for an article designed for public dissemination. I'm writing on a message board which, as our administrators regularly remind us, is not an organisation. The difference is important.


It is however pretty ironic you've jumped into this thread for reasons of trolling rather than actually engaging in the argument that was being had. This is maybe why you have no credibility on these forums.

In the words of the Dude: "Yeah, well, you know, that's just like, your opinion, man."

[Fourth Internationalist]

Flaming is against the rules.


then...



This is maybe why you have no credibility on these forums.


Not exactly the best direction to go when you are trying to stop someone from saying a bad word...

[Tuggback]

As I stated, and you apparently did not register, I haven't read the article. I gave up, after only a few paragraphs, because it was too draining. It is obvious that the author has even less respect for his/her audience than you have for facts - quite an achievement.

To be honest, this is probably the wrong place to make this point. But, the failure to write a coherent sentence in 'official' literature only confirms to people that we, the left, are just a bunch of ignorant kids. If we want to be taken seriously then we need to behave in a serious fashion - and no, confusing 'its' and 'it's' does not scream "serious" (which the author does - cue facepalms from readers).

You can´t be bothered to read it, but you willingly spend atleast an hour arguing about it? Some people...

Well-written article, I say. RIP Comrade Bobby Sands.

[Fionnagáin]

yeah the unions and thousands of working class people who were being raped and shot by the black and tans; who followed him and the IRA during Easter were definately not acting in class interests. What do you propose was the right course of action? Lay belly over and let the british and irish bourgeois apparatus milk you of what you're made of?
Perhaps they were at first. But when the IRA started breaking up strikes, started repressing workers' councils, started fighting peasants who tried to seize land away from the landlords, they became an unambiguously bourgeois organisation, and support for the republican movement an unambiguously bourgeois position. Whatever alliance could exist between the republicans and the working class was one of convenience, a response to their mutual repression by the British state, but as soon as an Irish state came into formation and starting enacting those very same repressions, all bets were off.

[Invader Zim]

You can´t be bothered to read it, but you willingly spend atleast an hour arguing about it? Some people...

Well-written article, I say. RIP Comrade Bobby Sands.

Entering a spat hours after it had ended? Bit of a shit stirrer, are you? Regardless, it may take you an hour to write a few short posts, the rest of us are not similarly afflicted.

[-NW2-]

firstly the ira was formed after the rising. the easter rising was led by pearse and the irish volunteers and connolly and the irish citizens army, with a combined force of about 2000 people. they were never joined by the 'masses' of working class people, who virtually all opposed the rising at the time.

this is what connolly had to say to william o'brien on the day of the rising :

Connolly - "We are going out to be slaughtered."
O'Brien - "Is there no chance of success?"
Connolly "None whatsoever."

if you look at this quote along with the significance of the date and connollys writings prior to the rising it is clear that it was a nationalist blood sacrifice, aided by german imperialism and with pretty much no popular support, which forever contaminated the idea of socialism in ireland with the poison of nationalism.

You say The masses 'who virually all opposed the rising at the time'.

Do you know that? I know thats the poular narrative given now. A few foolish rebels giving a 'blood sacrifice'. Nobody supports them until the executions etc etc. Except it doesnt really stand up to scrutiny does it? A few executions and the whole country is up in armed rebellion? The rising itself may not been a 'mass' uprising but the ideals it stood for certainly had mass support.

Also, more than 2000 volunteers would have come out if wasnt for the order given not to come out a few days before, and Connolly's quote is reflecting that. But as he said ath the time, the die was cast by that stage. Given the full force of volunteers and similar uprisings around the country which was the plan, it certainly wouldnt have been a few plucky rebels involved in a blood sacrifice. Connolly studied millitary tactics in the Russian uprising of 1905 and elsewhere so it was not a foolhardy gesture but a well though out enterprise seeking to exploit Britains pre-occupations in Flanders.

Your comment about Sands being 'a dead nationalist' is offensive to say the least. Would you say that about a Palestinian dying in a Israeli jail for example? Maybe Sands wasnt up to your standards of marxism and socialism, as you say Connolly was also an 'over rated marxist, but he certainly wouldnt have recognised a description of himself as a nationalist. That is to display a complete misunderstanding of Republicanism from the Fenians onwards.

Lenin said if someone waits for a pure revolution they will never live to see one. National liberation mopvements contain many elements. Not all of them are pure marxists or socialists or communists or whatever. They remain progressive and anti imperialist forces however.

RIP Bobby Sands MP
and Francis Hughes
Raymond Mcreesh
Patsy O'Hara (INLA)
Joe McDonnell
Kevin Lynch (INLA)
Kieran Doherty
Martin Hurson
Thomas McElwee
Michael Devine (INLA)

[Fionnagáin]

In what sense is the proposition that a class line exists, and is important, "purism"?

[-NW2-]

Being aware a class line exists is not purism.

Slating every revolutionary movement around the world because they dont live up to some utopian ideal of what a revolution should look like, is. It is never going to be the steely ranks of the organised working class alone facing off against evil capitalists.

To dismiss someone like Bobby Sands as just a 'dead nationalist' is also purism and attitudes like that will always alienate people who hold them from the working class.

[Fionnagáin]

Being aware a class line exists is not purism.

Slating every revolutionary movement around the world because they dont live up to some utopian ideal of what a revolution should look like, is. It is never going to be the steely ranks of the organised working class alone facing off against evil capitalists.
And how many peasants do you know personally?

[-NW2-]

What are you on about?

[Fionnagáin]

You argue that, in the event of a social revolution, the proletariat cannot be expected to stand alone. But who do you expect it to stand alongside? Peasants? Petty bourgeois? "Progressive" bourgeois? Why would the working class expect, or desire, the cooperation of any of these strata?

[-NW2-]

National liberation movements typically are made up of many elements. The leaders of the working class movements can be involved in these revolutions and try and dictate the direction and outcome or they can sit it out.

I cant think of a national liberation movement that hasnt been made up of a multitude of elements, religious, nationalist, cultural, native bourgeoisie etc. I may be wrong there, so if you can think of one...

In Ireland, the Labour Movement left the way clear for petty bourgeois elements in Sinn Fein to set the pace and direction of the revolution. Despite the fact that the Irish working class were organised and radicalised by years of strikes, soviets and conflict with capital.

Im certainly no expert on marxist theory but I have read a small bit of Lenin's work. He was very supportive of national liberation movements as progressive forces against imperialism. And it seems to me to be only realistic to expect any mass movement to be made up of different sections of society.

Connolly knew full well the type of people he was getting involved with when he told the Citizen Army to hold on to their guns as the volunteers were likely to do a deal with native capitalists, gombeen men and or the British.

[Geiseric]

National liberation movements typically are made up of many elements. The leaders of the working class movements can be involved in these revolutions and try and dictate the direction and outcome or they can sit it out.

I cant think of a national liberation movement that hasnt been made up of a multitude of elements, religious, nationalist, cultural, native bourgeoisie etc. I may be wrong there, so if you can think of one...

In Ireland, the Labour Movement left the way clear for petty bourgeois elements in Sinn Fein to set the pace and direction of the revolution. Despite the fact that the Irish working class were organised and radicalised by years of strikes, soviets and conflict with capital.

Im certainly no expert on marxist theory but I have read a small bit of Lenin's work. He was very supportive of national liberation movements as progressive forces against imperialism. And it seems to me to be only realistic to expect any mass movement to be made up of different sections of society.

Connolly knew full well the type of people he was getting involved with when he told the Citizen Army to hold on to their guns as the volunteers were likely to do a deal with native capitalists, gombeen men and or the British.

The national bourgeois is a myth the Maoists made up. There's no real o objective differance between owners of other countries.

[Rusty Shackleford]

The national bourgeois is a myth the Maoists made up. There's no real o objective differance between owners of other countries.

wrong. the whole concept of a national bourgeoisie came about probably before the 1880s.


when you had the bundists and 'national' parties splitting up workers in austria, there is no doubt that the concept of a national bourgeoisie had existed even then. even in the face of the destruction of the 'nation' as a relevant concept by the growth and development of capitalism in europe, it still seemed to survive.

[Geiseric]

wrong. the whole concept of a national bourgeoisie came about probably before the 1880s.


when you had the bundists and 'national' parties splitting up workers in austria, there is no doubt that the concept of a national bourgeoisie had existed even then. even in the face of the destruction of the 'nation' as a relevant concept by the growth and development of capitalism in europe, it still seemed to survive.

If you've ever read imperialism by Lenin he never claims that the bourgeois of Russia was their friends against the German or French. They are just as much enemies as the great powers. How would the russian petit bourgeois counter revolutionary character through the N.E.P. for example be different than the Chinese or Vietnamese petit bourgeois interests who are right in the same economic position?

[RATMfan1992]

r.i.p bobby sands.