How do we work?

[Estragon]

I know the answer in practice is: however we can since we all got to make a living. But in theory, or philosophically, does adhering to some form of socialist (or anti-capitalist) ideology place demands on the kind of jobs we can accept? Can, for instance, a person start a contracting business, provided he treats his workers well? What about freelance workers who have no employees? I realize that it is a trivialization of Marxism to state (as does your hysterical capitalist apologist) that it is incoherent to accept money for anything you do, but I am interested in your thoughts on where the lines are to be drawn.

[Sidagma]

Marxism isn't a lifestyle, it's a revolutionary political ideology. How you live your life as a person doesn't have anything to do with overthrowing the bourgeois state and its ideology. On the contrary, Marxists tend to think having access to the means of production is a GOOD thing, so that they can be used to overthrow capitalism.

[Estragon]

Marxism isn't a lifestyle, it's a revolutionary political ideology. How you live your life as a person doesn't have anything to do with overthrowing the bourgeois state and its ideology. On the contrary, Marxists tend to think having access to the means of production is a GOOD thing, so that they can be used to overthrow capitalism.

I have to say that strikes me as a little naive. The material conditions of Capitalism affect our lives-- that's the reason we form opinions about it. To transcend or overcome Capitalism necessarily means working out other ways of living. Otherwise Marxism, revolutionary politics, etc. would reduce to agitated bickering and destruction or onanistic self-absorption. That is, you allow Capital to turn you into a mindless thug or you disappear into the abyss of theory without praxis. Either way the status quo wins.

Any intellectual position that has no implications for our actual lives is kind of worthless in my opinion. I can't see Marx himself arguing otherwise given his interest in Epicureanism. I have no doubt that access to the means of production is a good thing, but unless we turn those toward describing and implementing some version of the good life there will never be a foundation on which we can build a just social order. At least that's how I see it.

[Blake's Baby]

... To transcend or overcome Capitalism necessarily means working out other ways of living. Otherwise Marxism, revolutionary politics, etc. would reduce to agitated bickering and destruction or onanistic self-absorption...

You've not been here much have you?

The point about transcending capitalism is that has to be done by a great mass of people. Individuals opting out are not the solution. Certainly, there are things that are actively harmful to the revolution; becoming a cop for instance. I can't see how anyone claiming to be a Marxist would seek to join the police force. But I don't think we can purge ourselves of capitalist sin by living pure, communist lives.

[Red Nightmare]

It seems like what you are really asking is, "How can we escape capitalism?" And the only way of doing that is getting rid of capitalism via revolution. There is no way we can escape being part of the capitalist system without revolution short of living on a remote island. Capitalism exploits the worker and the material conditions of capitalism force the worker to be a part of capitalist production whether they want to or not. We must turn our work against the system and claim our labor for ourselves.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

How you live your life as a person doesn't have anything to do with overthrowing the bourgeois state and its ideology.

Therefore, without confronting the conditions of our everyday lives, we will destroy capitalism with the sheer force of our scientific certainties? Geeze, Marxism can be so damn idealist some time.

Anyway, with some obvious outliers (1312), I don't think it so much matters how in particular one works so much as how one confronts it. For example, how does one attempt to create communist struggle within one's workplace? How does one start to draw lines, exacerbate contradictions, and push situations toward open conflict? How does one work to open up communist possibilities?

[Rugged Collectivist]

You could be a capitalist and a communist at the same time, but the important question is why? If you made a living by exploiting workers you would presumably want to keep that system in place. I see only two options. 1.) You think the revolution is inevitable and you want to win brownie points with the workers so they go easy on you. This is unlikely because, as far as I know, few people think socialism is actually inevitable. Option two makes more sense. 2.) Moral indignation.

People are quick to say that socialism isn't a lifestyle but if your job demands that you actively work against the interests of the working class than I don't think it would make much sense for you to call yourself a socialist. For example, I would never become a cop.

[Estragon]

It seems like what you are really asking is, "How can we escape capitalism?" And the only way of doing that is getting rid of capitalism via revolution. There is no way we can escape being part of the capitalist system without revolution short of living on a remote island. Capitalism exploits the worker and the material conditions of capitalism force the worker to be a part of capitalist production whether they want to or not. We must turn our work against the system and claim our labor for ourselves.

That's actually not what I intended to say at all. Sorry if I was unclear. The idea of "dropping out" of the system makes no sense to me. I would even say it is impossible. Certainly it doesn't help anybody.

However, saying that Marxism (or whatever revolutionary leftist ideology you adhere to) doesn't have implications for our lives sounds kind of passive. Does Marxism et al. place no practical demands on our lives, the kinds of jobs we take, the way we work them, etc? Sorry, but that just sounds defeatist.

[Hit The North]

Marxism has no implications for life-style; although there is an ethical element to socialism that Marxists should be sympathetic to. This would probably include not joining the ranks of capitalists - although, as we know, Engels had a close relationship to the bourgeoisie and earned a salary indirectly participating in the exploitation of workers in his father's firm - much to the gratitude of Karl Marx who survived on the generous stipend proffered by Engels.

But, philosophy and ethics aside, the correct answer is the practical one offered by the OP: under capitalism we are all forced to make a living.

If we are serious about being active communists, however, we need to be among our fellow workers, avoid senior management positions and be active in our trade unions.

[cantwealljustgetalong]

Estragon, you already have the right idea.

It's pretty vague where participation in the market is justified for Marxists; despite their claims to not dealing in ethics, there are just some jobs Marxists find it 'bad' to do or products/services that are 'bad' to buy, etc. I think the overarching point is that there is no hard and fast guide to understanding what is permitted/obliged, and that, vaguely speaking, a strategy that favors involvement with working-class struggles should define your choices more than a personal 'conscious-capitalist' ethic or dropping 'off the grid' entirely. This may include participating in boycotts in some instances, for example, but it only becomes meaningfully 'ethical' as part of a larger strategy to support working-class struggle. The main implications for living are positive, not negative: seek out where workers are fighting back and support them. Help build working-class political power, and study those who have done this in the past.

The only thing that is truly frowned upon is betraying the working class in some manner. Buying an iPad or clothing made in similar working conditions doesn't really qualify, but becoming a factory manager that directly profits off of slave-wage exploitation should. Certainly working as a Pinkerton and busting the unions would qualify. It gets more complex when you consider that many people indirectly profit (or, less literally, gain) from exploitation, and it's hard to imagine condemning each and everyone of them (especially those that face proletarian pressures themselves).

So yeah. It's complicated and no one knows exactly how to answer your question, but it seems like you're already oriented in the right direction.

[Estragon]

Estragon, you already have the right idea.

It's pretty vague where participation in the market is justified for Marxists; despite their claims to not dealing in ethics, there are just some jobs Marxists find it 'bad' to do or products/services that are 'bad' to buy, etc. I think the overarching point is that there is no hard and fast guide to understanding what is permitted/obliged, and that, vaguely speaking, a strategy that favors involvement with working-class struggles should define your choices more than a personal 'conscious-capitalist' ethic or dropping 'off the grid' entirely. This may include participating in boycotts in some instances, for example, but it only becomes meaningfully 'ethical' as part of a larger strategy to support working-class struggle. The main implications for living are positive, not negative: seek out where workers are fighting back and support them. Help build working-class political power, and study those who have done this in the past.

The only thing that is truly frowned upon is betraying the working class in some manner. Buying an iPad or clothing made in similar working conditions doesn't really qualify, but becoming a factory manager that directly profits off of slave-wage exploitation should. Certainly working as a Pinkerton and busting the unions would qualify. It gets more complex when you consider that many people indirectly profit (or, less literally, gain) from exploitation, and it's hard to imagine condemning each and everyone of them (especially those that face proletarian pressures themselves).

So yeah. It's complicated and no one knows exactly how to answer your question, but it seems like you're already oriented in the right direction.

This is a very helpful answer. Thanks! I'm very interested in the virtue tradition in ethics, as well as the conception of philosophy as way of life, and I wonder if Marxism assumes some (perhaps unacknowledged) virtues as pre-conditions for meaningful revolutionary change (i.e. Solidarity). Anyway, I appreciate all of the responses.

Vale.

[Blake's Baby]

I think cantwealljustgetalong's approach is the only sensible one. There is no clean money in capitalism, there's no way of surviving inside the system without in some ways perpetuating it, but there are some things you can do with a clearer conscience than others. Don't be an exploiter; don't be a cop; don't be a soldier for the capitalists (if you can avoid it).

Solidarity is fundamental to the socialist project, whether one is a Marxist or an Anarchist, I'd say.