Good reason to live?

[Akshay!]

Actually one of my friends (who is also some kind of a communist) wants to commit suicide. It's not an impulsive decision - he has thought it through. I've advised him not to, of course, but he's asking me for a "good reason to live". I never thought I'd have trouble thinking of one but it turns out that it really is pretty hard. What would you do if you were in my place and had to convince him? In other words, answer the following question - Why should one live?

[Brutus]

I can't really think of any good reason...
What about that he'll make his friends and family sad by commiting suicide? Sorry I couldn't be of more help

[mew]

Probably more than anything he needs to see a therapist and a doctor for anti depressants. When you're super depressed you just have a weird "logic" and way of seeing the world that's impervious to the kind of advice/support your friends give you.
But more generally I dunno... Not so long ago I was miserable and suicidal with I thought no hope or chance to have a better life. Now I have many good friends and other things in my life and feel pretty content most of the time. I've had many great experiences... You just never know what life is going to bring and it's worth it to see what happens.

[Forward Union]

He has to see a psychologist. As when people come here saying they, or a friend has medical issues, even if there was a doctor on this forum, it's no substitute for professional help. If it's serious, then get serious help.

With that disclaimer out of the way, the issue of "why should one live" has been dealt with extensively in Philosophy. You or your friend should consider reading "The Myth of Sisyphus" by Albert Camus. It discusses whether or not suicide is a philosophically justified reaction to the realisation that ones own life is completely meaningless. He concludes that while (as far as we know) life has no objective meaning, suicide doesn't actually provide meaning, the act is, in the universal sense, equally meaningless Saturn won't change its orbit and it wont delay the decay of the Suns core. If you did chose to comit suicide it's no more objectively important than any other action you might choose to undertake, or as he posed the question "should I kill myself or have a cup of coffee" ...nor does it solve the problem of meaninglessness.

Once people realise that they exist in a cold and uncaring universe with no meaning, they will be tempted to either retreat to a fantasy land or commit suicide. Instead of these options; Camus advocated actively choosing to live in this absurd situation, as an act of human rebellion against universe.

He's also my avatar. :cool:

[MarxArchist]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Myth_of_Sisyphus

OR

http://www.amazon.com/Living-Nietzsche-Great-Immoralist-Teach/dp/0195306775

Then Maybe go see one of these guys because they have all the answers *sponsored by Pfizer*

FQ7ewgZMCiU

[TheRedAnarchist23]

You can't go to great demonstrations after you are dead!

[Akshay!]

He concludes that while (as far as we know) life has no objective meaning, suicide doesn't actually provide meaning, the act is, in the universal sense, equally meaningless Saturn won't change its orbit and it wont delay the decay of the Suns core. If you did chose to comit suicide it's no more objectively important than any other action you might choose to undertake, or as he posed the question "should I kill myself or have a cup of coffee" ...nor does it solve the problem of meaninglessness.

Exactly. He's giving the exact same reason for suicide. When life is as meaningless as death, then what's the point in living? I can personally understand that it's a good thing to live but what I'm saying is that it's hard to intellectually convince someone that there's a good reason to live because there probably isn't.


You can't go to great demonstrations after you are dead!

Why would demonstrations matter/have any meaning after you're dead?

[Hermes]

I'm not sure there's anything you can do other than be a good friend, and be with him as often as possible.

If he wants to commit suicide, he's probably going to do it, unfortunately.

[MarxArchist]

Exactly. He's giving the exact same reason for suicide. When life is as meaningless as death, then what's the point in living? I can personally understand that it's a good thing to live but what I'm saying is that it's hard to intellectually convince someone that there's a good reason to live because there probably isn't.


What's the point in killing yourself? If you don't care whether you live or die why not LIVE. As in really LIVE. As in burn the candle from both ends. Passion. Love. Violence. Just typing this makes me want to go outside and live it up. Meet new people. Get into weird situations. Put on a wig. Have sex with the refrigerator. Death is most likely a black nothing of emptiness for eternity. That sounds rather boring, rather permanent and we'll all be there in time. No need to rush the inevitable. Yep. Time to get of the internet for the day. I'm going to go outside into the city.

[Akshay!]

I'm not sure there's anything you can do other than be a good friend, and be with him as often as possible.

If he wants to commit suicide, he's probably going to do it, unfortunately.

But I don't want him to. He has potential to do interesting things. He writes well and has read many many books. The problem is that he's convinced that there's no reason for him to live. He's frustrated with the world (like a lot of us are) but he has taken that to an extreme and become too pessimistic and depressed.



If you don't care whether you live or die why not LIVE. As in really LIVE.

He would say that if there's no good reason to live and there's no good reason to die then what's the difference? Why bother living?

[Hermes]

But I don't want him to. He has potential to do interesting things. He writes well and has read many many books. The problem is that he's convinced that there's no reason for him to live. He's frustrated with the world (like a lot of us are) but he has taken that to an extreme and become too pessimistic and depressed.

I don't really think that's your call to make, though.

It would be wonderful if he'd see a psychologist and try treatment, but it's not something I think you can force on him, either. Have you suggested it to him? What has he said?

--
This is all, of course, my opinion, and there are others who undoubtedly have better.

[slum]

he's probably got some reasons of his own to keep living, but it's hard to remember them when you're depressed. that said, myth of sysiphus is a good suggestion if he's philosophically inclined, as is much of the existentialist stuff (not kafka, for god's sake!) hesse's damien also kept me from the brink a few times when i was younger, and a good friend of mine decided to wait until after high school because he read steppenwolf. he's still alive.

this was helpful to me, and it's not bullshit: http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/index.html

just listen if he wants to talk. and if he is a communist, it might help to remind him that a lot of our alienation, self hatred and depression is exacerbated by our historical circumstances, circumstances which cannot remain as they are forever.

have him keep in mind that deep suicidal depression is a result of chemical imbalances. he cannot make informed, logical choices while in that condition. what seems like a philosophical necessity is not so; his mind is conspiring against him (eta: some lines from goethe's iphegenia i read yesterday seem relevant here: "with rare skill you entwine the god's devices and your own wishes neatly into one" and "we seize with eagerness upon a law that serves our passion as an instrument").

besides, if life is not worth living, why bother killing himself? eventually we all will die, and then that's that. by ending his life early he loses the chance that reasons for living will appear later in life.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Life, no matter how bad it can get, is always better than the alternative. Oblivion might sound nice, what with there being no more pain at all, but it also means that one will no longer exist to appreciate that fact. Life can get better, but death is always the same.

That's my take on it, at least. It might not be convincing to anyone seriously contemplating suicide, because I'm not a counsellor or therapist.

Also, what about the people left behind? Don't they matter?

[ZenTaoist]

There is no "reason" to live. Not beyond our biological reason for existence, which is to reproduce.

And I know this because I've contemplated suicide at least 5 dozen times. Just never got around to it. It's kind of like going to the dentist...you just wanna put it off a few more days. That's pretty much the only thing that has kept me here (and some recent good news that I'm moving to a new city).

To the person who asked what's the point in being dead: you don't suffer. The whole problem with being alive is that you're going to suffer. And we cannot trivialize someone else's suffering, because we have no idea what effect something as small as a bad grade on a report card might have on their psychology. If that causes them to suffer, it's their business. We don't have a right to impose life on them. Death can liberate someone from suffering.

I personally think people should be allowed to choose when it's their time to go. However, I completely understand wanting your friend to stay around. That's all you can do. Talk to him and tell him how much you would miss him. Perhaps even tell him that life is a tricky thing and his entire situation could turn around within the next 5 minutes. You just never know. If you would've told me 2 or 3 months ago I'd be on the verge of moving out-of-state, I would've probably looked at you as if you were crazy.

Just be a friend. That's all you can do.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

To the person who asked what's the point in being dead: you don't suffer. The whole problem with being alive is that you're going to suffer. And we cannot trivialize someone else's suffering, because we have no idea what effect something as small as a bad grade on a report card might have on their psychology. If that causes them to suffer, it's their business. We don't have a right to impose life on them. Death can liberate someone from suffering.

It also "liberates" them from any further chances of happiness or fulfilment. Life has no inherent meaning or purpose, but that just means that one is free to make meaning and purpose for oneself, rather than being shoehorned into some predetermined box.

[Nevsky]

One of the less helpful things to do in such a depressing situation is to think about this question philosophically. When I had major depression, it was caused of course mainly by frustration of my real life experience - especially my miserably failed love life - but it got worse by thinking too much. Abstracting oneself through profound, idealistic thinking was absolutely the worst for me. When your friend raises the question "what reason do I have to live?", don't try to anwer with a philosophical truth. The goal is to make him enjoy normal everyday life again. Just one superficial passion, somehting that you look forward to can make the difference. For example, I am currently rediscovering my passion for football which I completely lost during my "deep, depressed teen"-phase. The simple anticipation of watching Inter play every week distracted me from my pessimism. It's not that the pessimism goes away but it doesn't take over your life that way. Politics can be even better, revolutionary politics above all.

[MarxArchist]

He would say that if there's no good reason to live and there's no good reason to die then what's the difference? Why bother living?

I'm back online already. lol. Why? Because I wanted to come back online. Next I may want to eat a sandwich. Turkey with avocado. I enjoy turkey sandwiches. I like laying in bed with women smoking cigarettes. The national forest in Santa Cruz recharges my batteries. The zen Garden in Golden Gate park. Pizza. Beer. Riding a bicycle very fast downhill like a kamikaze pilot. Sometimes work can be fulfilling- sometimes. Socializing can be a double edged sword, functions with friends are usually better than worse though. Everyone has their own little weird worlds we live in. Different meaning is given to life by different people, there's no fundamental root meaning. My theory is do whatever I want to do in so far as I can afford it and so long as it doesn't harm another person. Sometimes I play with those two lines though, as in, drinking too much or putting myself into minor debt.

Other people chose the path of negation. This would be a more Eastern philosophy take on the subject. Meditation, inner peace etc but if you have a job that makes you miserable, a bad family life and rough times with friends it makes life hard to deal with. You can't put all your eggs into one basket because eventually one of those things are going to cause heartache. No one really has any concrete universal answers though. Beware of gurus. Don't even listen to me. People need to find their own meaning.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Once people realise that they exist in a cold and uncaring universe with no meaning, they will be tempted to either retreat to a fantasy land or commit suicide. Instead of these options; Camus advocated actively choosing to live in this absurd situation, as an act of human rebellion against universe.

That doesn't really make any sense though, as life is meaningless according to his own equation. Death is meaningless, too. So how is living life actually preferential to embracing death? It sounds to me like they're both part of the same void, so it really doesn't matter.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

In general...

First try to have your friend put off the decision. If you wanna commit suicide, fine, but can you put it off for a week, a month, two months?

I don't agree that life is meaningless. The world may be meaningless but the idea is to impose one's own meaning on it.

Try something that takes your friend out of his preoccupation with himself.He is a communist? That's certainly something to live for right there.To be very blunt, your friend is being selfish and terribly narccistic. He wants to ice himself with all the oppression and shit going on in the world? So few people are conscious class fighters. Your friend regards himself as one, yet he will abdicate his responsibility and let down his class?

I know this sounds harsh but sometimes its what's needed to break the downward spiral.

I don't know your friend's situation. I won't say, "things get better" because very often they don't.He may feel mistreated by society.In a case like this the desire for revenge can be a very healthy emotion. He may be able to focus his anger outward to the class enemy.If he is politically aware he has something to contribute.

You may want to find the suicide hotline in your area. There are people specifically trained to deal with situations like that.

A therapist can be helpful, esp. one with a philosophical bent.

[Per Levy]

i cant give you that many good reasons to live, sex maybe if someone has a partner for it. anyway, i think if the situation that brought your friend to this conclusion wont change it will probally be very hard to convince your friend otherwise.

only thing i can think of is to try another approach and im speaking of guilt. depression tend to leave you with very selfcentered thoughts, i know. and suicide is also extremly selfish. now i dont know you friend but i guess s/he has a lovein careing family and loveing careing friends all of whom would be very hurt by the suicide. besides, there i no need to rush a suicide, since well you can do it every day.

[Akshay!]

Thanks for the helpful answers, but I should clarify something about the situation -


He has to see a psychologist. As when people come here saying they, or a friend has medical issues, even if there was a doctor on this forum, it's no substitute for professional help. If it's serious, then get serious help.



You may want to find the suicide hotline in your area. There are people specifically trained to deal with situations like that.
A therapist can be helpful, esp. one with a philosophical bent.


It would be wonderful if he'd see a psychologist and try treatment, but it's not something I think you can force on him, either. Have you suggested it to him? What has he said?



Probably more than anything he needs to see a therapist and a doctor for anti depressants. When you're super depressed you just have a weird "logic" and way of seeing the world that's impervious to the kind of advice/support your friends give you.



this was helpful to me, and it's not bullshit: http://www.metanoia.org/suicide/index.html


Well, some here seem to be assuming that he's depressed and is therefore making an impulsive and emotional decision without giving much serious thought (the website link above also makes the same assumption) and I don't blame you because most suicide cases are, indeed, like that but in this case nothing could be further from the truth. He's rational, unemotional and somehow convinced of the worthlessness/meaninglessness of his life (and probably of life in general). Almost everyone here also seems to be agreeing that life in itself probably is meaningless (even though we can later add our own meaning etc.. etc..). But, you see, that's exactly why it's hard to convince him.. :(

That said, some of the things mentioned above are interesting and I'll try them even though I think it's unlikely that anything will work now. :crying:

[Tim Cornelis]

I appreciate life's every moment, because of this:
http://visual.ly/what-are-odds
http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/chances_of_you_existing.htm

I would want to live forever to find out what discoveries will be made, I would love to witness the moment of first contact with et, and so staying alive for as a long as I can is the best chance I'll get at witnessing historical moments.

[Lenina Rosenweg]

It sounds as if your friend is having an actual existential/philosophic crisis. FWIW if he is interested I could recommend Istvan Mazaros' critique of Sartre

http://enaadoug.wordpress.com/2012/01/08/istvan-meszaros-critique-of-jean-paul-sartre/


That being said, what were the ontological foundations of existentialism that ultimately derailed Sartre’s project? One: Sartre turned the scarcity into an ahistorical absolute. In volume one Sartre says people are dominated by scarcity. Scarcity is what distinguishes man throughout history. The struggle against scarcity led to the division of labor, the struggle of classes, etc. Effectively, Sartre says that scarcity can never be overcome (an ahistorical argument par excellence that ultimately results from Sartre’s acceptance of capital’s framework). Sartre doesn’t recognize that scarcity is a historical category which can be superseded (365).

Two: Sartre, again basing himself on an existentialist ontological framework, says that other men are the enemy (361). In fact, Sartre goes as far as to say that other men are inhuman, which Meszaros says is to existentially prejudge the issue rather than taking a historical view (364). This means that the serial group is composed of individuals or a plurality of solitudes. The series is based on competition. There is no common or collective purpose to the series

This might or might not provide something to work with.

[Ele'ill]

I think that seeing doctors is a good thing to do if you can and pretty much just if nothing else 'a thing to do' and you'll get a feel for how serious it is that time around and maybe rethink it or if nothing else rethink the 'how' portion as sad as that is. Friends are important during those low times too to just sit and listen. Advice for said friends, in some situations (I'm projecting here) when the person pushes you away one-up them and do something for them take them out shake up their routine if it's possible and don't leave until you think they know that you are there for them at all hours.

[Art Vandelay]

That doesn't really make any sense though, as life is meaningless according to his own equation. Death is meaningless, too. So how is living life actually preferential to embracing death? It sounds to me like they're both part of the same void, so it really doesn't matter.

I've been reading Camus lately and its helped me taking some positive steps in regards to mental health. Having said that, there is one glaring hole in Camus's thought. If both death and life are equally meaningless, then why would someone choose the option that is painful, ie: life?

[Art Vandelay]

Well, some here seem to be assuming that he's depressed and is therefore making an impulsive and emotional decision without giving much serious thought (the website link above also makes the same assumption) and I don't blame you because most suicide cases are, indeed, like that but in this case nothing could be further from the truth. He's rational, unemotional and somehow convinced of the worthlessness/meaninglessness of his life (and probably of life in general). Almost everyone here also seems to be agreeing that life in itself probably is meaningless (even though we can later add our own meaning etc.. etc..). But, you see, that's exactly why it's hard to convince him.. :(

That said, some of the things mentioned above are interesting and I'll try them even though I think it's unlikely that anything will work now. :crying:

It really sounds like he's going through an existential crises and it reminds me alot of myself. That being said, just be there for him and don't give up hope and resign yourself to the idea that there is nothing you can do. If what little friends stood by me through my extremely low points had given up, I probably wouldn't be here today.


If you know someone who’s depressed, please resolve never to ask them why. Depression isn’t a straightforward response to a bad situation; depression just is, like the weather.

Try to understand the blackness, lethargy, hopelessness, and loneliness they’re going through. Be there for them when they come through the other side. It’s hard to be a friend to someone who’s depressed, but it is one of the kindest, noblest, and best things you will ever do. - Stephen Fry

[Rugged Collectivist]

I can't really recommend Camus. I bought "The Myth of Sisyphus and other essays" but it's kind of hard to understand so I haven't read much.

Personally. I would avoid the whole "Everyone will miss you" argument. It's partially responsible for keeping me alive but it also makes me sad because I feel like I'm just living to satisfy other peoples happiness instead of my own, which is a sad, hollow existence.

I would go with the "Death is permanent and life has it's fun moments that you probably won't want to miss out on" argument.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Double post sorry.

[Beeth]

Ask your friend to see life as a person, a wicked person, who is taunting him every now and then. Now if he commits suicide, this wicked person will win. Does he really want that? Or does he want to live and conquer this person thereby?

This sort of emotional approach may be better than a logical one - life doesn't always follow logic even if we do.

[Estragon]

I wonder if the whole "life is meaningless" thing is helpful when looking at any of our own lives. Sure, on the scale of the universe ("from the perspective of eternity") it's hard to imagine what sort of meaning anything at all can have. However, we don't really live from the perspective of eternity. To say that my individual life is meaningless since the whole universe is "absurd" (to use Camus's terminology) is the same as saying that since we're all part of the universe I can take Bob's lawnmower, or that since nature is neither good nor evil we can therefore go on a shooting rampage. If your friend truly believes (as you have indicated) that there are deep ethical problems with the world as it is then he would be living incoherently not to try and fix them to the degree that his life makes possible. He would be subordinating the demands of his convictions to the whims of his selfish desire. It is, in other words, irrational to commit suicide in these circumstances.

Now, none of that will sway him if he is hellbent on pulling this off. You describe him as "unemotional" which strikes me as a symptom of depression (the real thing) more than a decision made in accordance with rational principles. If he's depressed he needs help. But nothing can make him get it. I sure hope he does though.

[#FF0000]

Estragon brings up a p. good point. Meaning is something we give things -- nothing has intrinsic meaning.

Anyway, yeah, the whole "oh he's unemotional" thing actually sounds like pretty severe depression, to be honest! And he's far from being rational here -- living is your only shot to exist. Dude's literally got a chance to exist as a thing for about 70 years or so and wants to stop the ride early.

He should seriously go to a therapist.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I'd recommend religion, but I could get flamed for doing that on this forum I think :rolleyes: (but after all, it is the heart of a heartless world). People really do live for the meaning that they see in the world, and our modern, secular, liberal society has done a lot to degrade religious notions of meaning in the world while replacing it with very little of actual substance. People find it hard to find meaning in God anymore, yet our community has no alternative except money and property. The values of our society have become so one dimensional, shallow and hollow that really people have nothing to grasp on to if they are in the slightest bit cynical.

Existential crises are difficult to manage and overcome. There's really no consistent program to help people going through one because everyone is having their own crisis, and there are numerous hurdles. If they have no reason to go on living they have no reason to go see a psychologist, or to take the psychologist seriously. This seems like the biggest hurdle. Another is that whatever is causing this crisis is itself hidden. The best thing to do initially is to be there as a friend. Perhaps recommend some good books or poetry you think might point him towards another way of being in the world?

[Forward Union]

Exactly. He's giving the exact same reason for suicide. When life is as meaningless as death, then what's the point in living? I can personally understand that it's a good thing to live but what I'm saying is that it's hard to intellectually convince someone that there's a good reason to live because there probably isn't.

Well, I doubt that many people really have the will power to kill themselves just out of intellectually considering the absurd. But for Camus, who I've spoken about before (but who is not the only one to discuss this issue) suicide is the rejection complete rejection of freedom. He considered the act of suicide to be the same as becoming religious or enthralled in a fantasy. Your friend has identified a very real existential problem, that his life is meaningless, but Suicide like becoming religious, does not fix that problem. Tolstoy for example, realized that he was staring into the abyss of eternal nothingness, that sooner or later, he would never exist again and faced the same existential crisis that your friend is now. He retreated to a pious life devoted to Christ, and lived his days out in a monastery. HE could have done that or killed himself. No difference really.

But Satre put it "The absurd man will not commit suicide; he wants to live, without relinquishing any of his certainty, without a future, without hope, without illusions ... and without resignation either. He stares at death with passionate attention and this fascination liberates him. He experiences the "divine irresponsibility" of the condemned man."

Skip to 22:45 for an excerpt about these issues from a Dawing documentary of life and death;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3w71PAo8zT4&list=PLhZdchtFcHqgf9eCYWPIBvKLOn04Sd3qK

[Deity]

If he wants to die, who are you to stop him? Maybe try to encourage him to do some symbolic and meaningful things before going out though. "The purpose of life is a life with a purpose"

[Fionnagáin]

I've been reading Camus lately and its helped me taking some positive steps in regards to mental health. Having said that, there is one glaring hole in Camus's thought. If both death and life are equally meaningless, then why would someone choose the option that is painful, ie: life?
I don't think it makes sense to juxtapose life and death as being painful and painless. Death isn't painless, because it isn't anything: it is non-being. Life is painful, but life is everything else, and so the only context in which "pain" can have any meaning. If you've truly given up on life, if you've divested yourself of the hope of meaningful existence, then pain should represent no concern to you, just more noise without consequence, and the fact that life is painful shouldn't figure into the balance.

Worth noting, a lot of severely depressed people adopt self-destructive behaviour precisely because it is, in its own fucked up way, life-affirming. As much as to live is to suffer, to suffer is to live. The very darkest pit of depression isn't experienced as pain, it's experienced as numbness.

[Akshay!]

I think we all basically agree on one thing (even though it might seem that we don't). Let me demonstrate


Life has no inherent meaning or purpose,


When life is as meaningless as death, then what's the point in living? ... it's hard to intellectually convince someone that there's a good reason to live because there probably isn't.


nothing has intrinsic meaning.


Sure, on the scale of the universe ("from the perspective of eternity") it's hard to imagine what sort of meaning anything at all can have.


If both death and life are equally meaningless, then why would someone choose the option that is painful, ie: life?


Your friend has identified a very real existential problem, that his life is meaningless,


I can't really think of any good reason..


There is no "reason" to live.
To the person who asked what's the point in being dead: you don't suffer. The whole problem with being alive is that you're going to suffer. Death can liberate someone from suffering.



as life is meaningless according to his own equation. Death is meaningless, too. It sounds to me like they're both part of the same void, so it really doesn't matter.


He concludes that while (as far as we know) life has no objective meaning,


The world may be meaningless


Death isn't painless, because it isn't anything: it is non-being. Life is painful,

Now,


I appreciate life's every moment, because of this:
http://visual.ly/what-are-odds
http://members.shaw.ca/tfrisen/chances_of_you_existing.htm


Something is improbable doesn't mean it's "good". A meteor hitting the earth and destroying all living species might be really improbable but I don't think you'd consider it "good".


The very darkest pit of depression isn't experienced as pain, it's experienced as numbness.

That doesn't make any sense. You can't experience pain when you're dead because you can't "experience". Because "you" aren't. "You" cease to exist.


“The thing that endures, that gives value to life, is comradeship, loyalty, bravery, magnanimity, love, the relations of people in direct communication with each other. From this comes the beauty of life, its tragedy and its meaning, and from nowhere else” (Rexroth).

All of that "endures" until you get hit by a car or come to know that you have cancer in your pancreas..

Also, you're missing the "suffering" part. Instead of ending the suffering six decades later, why not end it now? How does it matter anyway?

[Os Cangaceiros]

I think we all basically agree on one thing (even though it might seem that we don't). Let me demonstrate

If you're convinced that he's right about having a valid reason for ending his own life, then maybe you should let him die. I hate to say it but that's where this whole exchange seems to be headed.

The only person I personally knew who committed suicide was a kid from my high school. 18 years old, whole life ahead of him, and put a bullet through his head. I've never been able to understand that to this day.

[black magick hustla]

camus, satre, etc are dumb and adolescent, read this

http://www.bopsecrets.org/recent/responses.htm#suicide

[black magick hustla]

“The thing that endures, that gives value to life, is comradeship, loyalty, bravery, magnanimity, love, the relations of people in direct communication with each other. From this comes the beauty of life, its tragedy and its meaning, and from nowhere else” (Rexroth).

[Os Cangaceiros]

One of my parent's friends got paralyzed from the neck down in a terrible accident.

I guess he managed to position his wheelchair (I think he had one of those wheelchairs that you move by breathing into a tube) in front of a swimming pool, then drove forward so he intentionally fell out & drowned. Whenever I feel particularly bad, that story always gives me some perspective...

[REV3R]

Whats a good reason to die, then

[Os Cangaceiros]

Although different people have different abilities to handle hardship in their lives, I suppose.

[Ele'ill]

camus, satre, etc are dumb and adolescent, read this

http://www.bopsecrets.org/recent/responses.htm#suicide

this is really bad

and naive

[TheRedAnarchist23]

Why would demonstrations matter/have any meaning after you're dead?

Nothing matters after you die, so you can conclude that everything matters when you are alive.

[Os Cangaceiros]

All of that "endures" until you get hit by a car or come to know that you have cancer in your pancreas..


We all die, yes...I think that's hardly a revelation. I don't think that's really the spirit of that quote, though. It's about finding pleasure and meaning in life while we're still alive. Most people are able to do that, even people who have very hard lives.

[black magick hustla]

this is really bad

and naive

its a bit irresponsable, i agree. but i guess his point is that its stupid to extrapolate philosophical abstractions from your depression/life etc which i agree. the solution to these things isnt philosophical. i wouldnt send that to a suicidal person tho lol

[Ele'ill]

I know that this was written as a specific response to a letter but yeah I just saw that it completely missed the point of chemical imbalance (often with medication/other treatments being unsuccessful). There is a difference between being 'sad' or feeling 'lost' where exploring your world opens up options and new interests and leaves positive memories imprinted in time compared to having lost interest in most or all previously enjoyable activities due to 'clinical' mental health issues regardless if the specifics have actually been diagnosed by a doctor of some type. I think that the shaking up of routine as I said earlier in this thread can be beneficial as a remedy to forced aspects of society that just suck that most of us hate but sometimes and often for a lot of people that does very little.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think we all basically agree on one thing (even though it might seem that we don't). Let me demonstrate

Just because we all agree on the same facts doesn't mean we all draw the same conclusions from those facts, an important factor which you omit by taking our words (or at least mine) out of context.


All of that "endures" until you get hit by a car or come to know that you have cancer in your pancreas..

So what if living is only temporary? Why not make the most of it for as long as one can?

Personally I like living (or at least experiencing) enough that if immortality were offered to me, I would take it without a second thought.


Also, you're missing the "suffering" part. Instead of ending the suffering six decades later, why not end it now? How does it matter anyway?

Two words: missed opportunities!

If one ends it all early on, then one will miss out on all the good and enjoyable things that life has to offer in the course of a natural lifespan. If one has kids, then one will miss out on watching them growing up into adults close to one's heart.

Also, one's premature absence will also cause considerable pain to those who love one or otherwise find emotional fulfilment in one's existence as a person. Suicide may be the end of one's own pain, but it would only be the beginning of significant emotional anguish to those close to one.

[Fionnagáin]

camus, satre, etc are dumb and adolescent, read this

http://www.bopsecrets.org/recent/responses.htm#suicide
That's basically just Camus without all the flowery language and literary references. I mean, we're talking about a guy who wrote a book centred on the idea that you can make eternal torture work for you, so I don't think it's fair to write him off as a proponent of "spiritual melodrama". ;)1

[cyu]

4 reasons to live:

The open steppe.
Fleet horse.
Falcons at your wrist.
And the wind in your hair.

...or the alternative version:

To crush all capitalists.
See them driven before you.
And to hear the lamentation of their women ;)

...but since I'm a nice guy, I'll just do it to their ideas instead of to their bodies :D

[Akshay!]

Whats a good reason to die, then

You don't have to go through the trouble of living for so many decades doing boring, meaningless things like a slave, and not being able to do what you want!


Nothing matters after you die, so you can conclude that everything matters when you are alive.

That's terrible logic.


We all die, yes...I think that's hardly a revelation. I don't think that's really the spirit of that quote, though. It's about finding pleasure and meaning in life while we're still alive. Most people are able to do that, even people who have very hard lives.

What's the difference between
1) Being dead for billions of years and
2) Having pleasure and meaning (and suffering) for 60 years and Then being dead for billions of years...??


Personally I like living (or at least experiencing) enough that if immortality were offered to me, I would take it without a second thought.

Isn't that a Big "If"??


Suicide may be the end of one's own pain, but it would only be the beginning of significant emotional anguish to those close to one.

Closed ones would be sad for a few weeks and then back to normal. (Nobody cries about some closed one who died 243 days ago...) And closed ones would've been sad even when the person would've died his natural death.


reasons to live:
To crush all capitalists.
See them driven before you.

That ain't happening any time soon (unfortunately).

[cyu]

That ain't happening any time soon (unfortunately).

It happens over and over. You're just not looking at the right places at the right time (or too afraid to do it yourself ;)

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

My feeling is, generally, when one is at the point of suicide, one can do anything. Like, if there are things in your life that you don't want to do - stop doing them. If you want to quit your job and run away - do it. Etc. That whole "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose," line rings pretty true in my experience. As long as suicide is on the table - everything is on the table. Why go out miserably when there's nothing left to mediate between you and your miseries? Confront them head on. Go tell your boss to eat a dick and die. Leave your family and join the circus. Whatever.

[Crixus]

My feeling is, generally, when one is at the point of suicide, one can do anything. Like, if there are things in your life that you don't want to do - stop doing them. If you want to quit your job and run away - do it. Etc. That whole "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose," line rings pretty true in my experience. As long as suicide is on the table - everything is on the table. Why go out miserably when there's nothing left to mediate between you and your miseries? Confront them head on. Go tell your boss to eat a dick and die. Leave your family and join the circus. Whatever.
http://images4.static-bluray.com/reviews/3855_1.jpg

http://www.cinepad.com/images/thelma.jpg

http://24.media.tumblr.com/b85a22099dc65a17634e54f12b92ba46/tumblr_mh31qlxAtX1qekbt9o1_1280.jpg

Funny thing is, well, maybe not funny:


Hunter S. Thompson’s Suicide Note (http://stereogum.com/1799/hunter_s_thompsons_suicide_note/news/)

No More Games. No More Bombs. No More Walking. No More Fun. No More Swimming. 67. That is 17 years past 50. 17 more than I needed or wanted. Boring. I am always *****y. No Fun – for anybody. 67. You are getting Greedy. Act your old age. Relax – This won’t hurt.

[Os Cangaceiros]

What's the difference between
1) Being dead for billions of years and
2) Having pleasure and meaning (and suffering) for 60 years and Then being dead for billions of years...??

Is that a rhetorical question? The answer seems obvious.

[skitty]

I just read about a 30% surge in USA suicides in a decade. Apparently suicide has surpassed car accidents as a cause of death, just like our soldiers are killing themselves faster than any "enemy" is. Pretty disturbing.

[cyu]

There was a surge in suicide in Russia when capitalists took over after the collapse of the Soviet Union. If they don't kill you with poverty, they'll kill you with something else.

[Art Vandelay]

My feeling is, generally, when one is at the point of suicide, one can do anything. Like, if there are things in your life that you don't want to do - stop doing them. If you want to quit your job and run away - do it. Etc. That whole "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose," line rings pretty true in my experience. As long as suicide is on the table - everything is on the table. Why go out miserably when there's nothing left to mediate between you and your miseries? Confront them head on. Go tell your boss to eat a dick and die. Leave your family and join the circus. Whatever.

Someone told me that when I was on the verge of suicide and it was the best advice anyone gave me.

[Ele'ill]

My feeling is, generally, when one is at the point of suicide, one can do anything. Like, if there are things in your life that you don't want to do - stop doing them. If you want to quit your job and run away - do it. Etc. That whole "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose," line rings pretty true in my experience. As long as suicide is on the table - everything is on the table. Why go out miserably when there's nothing left to mediate between you and your miseries? Confront them head on. Go tell your boss to eat a dick and die. Leave your family and join the circus. Whatever.

Again though there is a difference between feeling trapped and bored with life and feeling the intense other symptoms of mental health issues. While what you said is true it simply doesn't matter to some people. Honestly if day to day stresses are triggers then quitting a job might work and running away might work, might, in some really ideal circumstances, but this opens up an entirely new world of boredom and terror that offer equal levels of stress. We'd have to compare ideal worlds, awesome job and stability and happiness- with - running away joining the circus, climbing mountains, seeing the desert, making it work. With some mental health issues neither of these worlds are real, neither of them are feasible even when you're in them for real.

[Comrade Nasser]

Yes people with depression IMO need psychiatric help. But those who are going through hard times (pretty much everyone at one point are another) just need to see how important they are to the people in their lives and that their families and friends would be devastated without them and that you love them.

[Art Vandelay]

Yes people with depression IMO need psychiatric help. But those who are going through hard times (pretty much everyone at one point are another) just need to see how important they are to the people in their lives and that their families and friends would be devastated without them and that you love them.

Ugh, speaking as someone who is depressed and suicidal on a daily basis, worst advice ever. Telling people who are on the verge of suicide, that their actions would only be selfish (not stated here, but implied) is the worst course of action.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

You don't have to go through the trouble of living for so many decades doing boring, meaningless things like a slave, and not being able to do what you want!

You can do that without dying, though. If you don't like society as it currently is, there are various options for you to drop out. Join a hippie commune. Become part of a reclusive religious order. Be a starving artist. Travel around as a hobo. Other options are possible, and none of them involve having to make decisions you can't go back on.


Isn't that a Big "If"??

Not as big as you might think, actually. There are no known laws of physics or biology which prohibit an organism from living indefinitely, as long as it can acquire the required materials and energy. Humans lifespans are still increasing thanks to improving medical technology, and indeed there may come a time when our ability to extend life improves faster than the average rate of senescence, giving us the first "forever generation" for whom death is almost entirely optional, barring accidents.

That might even happen within my own lifetime, and so I don't want to miss it!


Closed ones would be sad for a few weeks and then back to normal. (Nobody cries about some closed one who died 243 days ago...) And closed ones would've been sad even when the person would've died his natural death.

The intensity of the emotional pain will recede, true, but that's not to say that it will completely go away. Someone they love is still dead and gone forever. I suspect that people would be more upset over a close person killing themselves at an early age, rather than that same person dying of natural causes at a later age.


That ain't happening any time soon (unfortunately).

Maybe not, but ending it all early will guarantee that one won't live to see it.

[Art Vandelay]

You can do that without dying, though. If you don't like society as it currently is, there are various options for you to drop out. Join a hippie commune. Become part of a reclusive religious order. Be a starving artist. Travel around as a hobo. Other options are possible, and none of them involve having to make decisions you can't go back on.

While I agree with everything else you've said, for the most part, this entire idea, is premised upon the fact that the resulting mental illness, is entirely caused by environmental factors. Which is entirely not the case, I come from a great background, supportive family, etc...yet am suicidal.

[Os Cangaceiros]

The intensity of the emotional pain will recede, true, but that's not to say that it will completely go away. Someone they love is still dead and gone forever. I suspect that people would be more upset over a close person killing themselves at an early age, rather than that same person dying of natural causes at a later age.

Yeah, the OP is definitely wrong about that. It does depend on how the person died. If I were to kill myself I have little doubt that my parents would still be torn up over it a year afterwards, esp. considering that I'm still pretty young and their only child, etc.

-

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

While I agree with everything else you've said, for the most part, this entire idea, is premised upon the fact that the resulting mental illness, is entirely caused by environmental factors. Which is entirely not the case, I come from a great background, supportive family, etc...yet am suicidal.

I'm not sure how you derived "environmental factors" out of anything I've said. Just pointing out that whatever the motivation for suicide, there are typically plenty of other options which one can change one's mind about later. Obviously if one is clinically depressed then that can impact on one's ability to consider the options, in which case my only recommendation would be to seek medical help, and hope that in similar circumstances I would do the same.


Yeah, the OP is definitely wrong about that. It does depend on how the person died. If I were to kill myself I have little doubt that my parents would still be torn up over it a year afterwards, esp. considering that I'm still pretty young and their only child, etc.

....

I really don't think we should be discussing methods of suicide. I'm fairly sure that's been shown to increase the risk that someone might actually do it, and personally I don't want people to be killing themselves.

[Comrade Nasser]

Ugh, speaking as someone who is depressed and suicidal on a daily basis, worst advice ever. Telling people who are on the verge of suicide, that their actions would only be selfish (not stated here, but implied) is the worst course of action.

It worked with my friend last year and we all made him cards that said we loved him and now he's happier than ever. But I guess the circumstances are different as he had just broken up with his girlfriend of 2 years.

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm not sure how you derived "environmental factors" out of anything I've said. Just pointing out that whatever the motivation for suicide, there are typically plenty of other options which one can change one's mind about later. Obviously if one is clinically depressed then that can impact on one's ability to consider the options, in which case my only recommendation would be to seek medical help, and hope that in similar circumstances I would do the same.



I really don't think we should be discussing methods of suicide. I'm fairly sure that's been shown to increase the risk that someone might actually do it, and personally I don't want people to be killing themselves.

Yeah you're probably right. I'll redact that part...

[cyu]

Pro-capitalists only pretend to be friendly

http://wallscometumblingdown.wordpress.com/2010/04/14/jk-rowling-attacks-cameron-and-his-new-tories/

I keep having flashbacks to 1997. In January that year, I was a single parent with a four-year-old daughter, teaching part-time but living mainly on benefits, in a rented flat.

I had become a single mother when my first marriage split up in 1993. In one devastating stroke, I became a hate figure to a certain section of the press, and a bogeyman to the Tory Government. Women like me (for it is a curious fact that lone male parents are generally portrayed as heroes, whereas women left holding the baby are vilified) were, according to popular myth, a prime cause of social breakdown, and in it for all we could get: free money, state-funded accommodation, an easy life.

Between 1993 and 1997 I did the job of two parents, qualified and then worked as a secondary school teacher, wrote one and a half novels and did the planning for a further five. For a while, I was clinically depressed. To be told, over and over again, that I was feckless, lazy — even immoral — did not help.

Nobody who has ever experienced the reality of poverty could say “it’s not the money, it’s the message”. When your flat has been broken into, and you cannot afford a locksmith, it is the money. When you are two pence short of a tin of baked beans, and your child is hungry, it is the money. When you find yourself contemplating shoplifting to get nappies, it is the money. If Mr Cameron’s only practical advice to women living in poverty, the sole carers of their children, is “get married, and we’ll give you £150”, he reveals himself to be completely ignorant of their true situation.

David Cameron tells us that the Conservatives have changed, that they are no longer the “nasty party”. He has repackaged a policy that made desperate lives worse when his party was last in power, and is trying to sell it as something new. I’ve never voted Tory before and they keep on reminding me why.

[TheRedAnarchist23]

That's terrible logic.

So is the one behind suicide!

[Ele'ill]

...or the alternative version:

To crush all capitalists.
See them driven before you.
And to hear the lamentation of their women ;)

...but since I'm a nice guy, I'll just do it to their ideas instead of to their bodies :D

was this the joke or was the joke the stereotype of anarchosyndicalism

[sixdollarchampagne]

This is probably simplistic, on my part, but I agree with Red Anarchist. If your friend is "kind of a communist," well, that stance imparts a lot of meaning to his every action and choice, right there. The reason to go on living is to be a conscious, active participant in the class struggle, for as long as one is able, to fight for the smashing of the bourgeois state. I guess that 's not an inherent reason to choose to live, but, for a communist, it is a weighty reason.

[cyu]

was this the joke


The entire post was only half serious - it's actually a doctored quote from the movie Conan the Barbarian xD

[Art Vandelay]

It worked with my friend last year and we all made him cards that said we loved him and now he's happier than ever. But I guess the circumstances are different as he had just broken up with his girlfriend of 2 years.

Depression isn't the same thing as a broken heart.

[Art Vandelay]

I'm not sure how you derived "environmental factors" out of anything I've said. Just pointing out that whatever the motivation for suicide, there are typically plenty of other options which one can change one's mind about later. Obviously if one is clinically depressed then that can impact on one's ability to consider the options, in which case my only recommendation would be to seek medical help, and hope that in similar circumstances I would do the same.

I guess the point I was trying to make was that a simple change of scenery isn't going to bring someone out of depression. I mean I agree that there are plenty of options that people with mental illness don't consider, but at the same time if I just got up and moved to go join a hippie commune (I could there is one in my town, I've been invited out to) it wouldn't just suddenly change my mental state. I'd be the same depressed guy, but now surrounded by hippies who would probably piss me off.

[Comrade Nasser]

Yeah you're right 9mm.

[MarxSchmarx]

C2h5oh

But in all honesty, ask your colleague - so what if there were no reason? What matters a reason? Suppose the "reason to live" was to be inter-galactic snack food for a traveling alien race. Does this mean your life is any more meaningful? Presumably not. So then why should you elevate one alleged "reason" over another?

[Art Vandelay]

C2h5oh

But in all honesty, ask your colleague - so what if there were no reason? What matters a reason? Suppose the "reason to live" was to be inter-galactic snack food for a traveling alien race. Does this mean your life is any more meaningful? Presumably not. So then why should you elevate one alleged "reason" over another?

But that is entirely the point, the idea is that reason, obviously, doesn't come into to the equation, so if meaning doesn't exist and one's life consists of pain, then what is the point in not ending it prematurely?

[Deity]

I guess the point I was trying to make was that a simple change of scenery isn't going to bring someone out of depression. I mean I agree that there are plenty of options that people with mental illness don't consider, but at the same time if I just got up and moved to go join a hippie commune (I could there is one in my town, I've been invited out to) it wouldn't just suddenly change my mental state. I'd be the same depressed guy, but now surrounded by hippies who would probably piss me off.

How do hippies piss you off? The ones I have met have successfully changed my outlook, and made me more positive. I do believe that for some people becoming a hippie could be a big part of ending your depression. Sometimes living a life surrounded by positivity can make a difference.

[Art Vandelay]

How do hippies piss you off? The ones I have met have successfully changed my outlook, and made me more positive. I do believe that for some people becoming a hippie could be a big part of ending your depression. Sometimes living a life surrounded by positivity can make a difference.

I hate the whole 'all we need to do is just hold hands and sing cumbaya all the way to world peace' mentality that permeates the hippy subculture.

[#FF0000]

I've found that I hate the idea of hippies more than I hate actual hippies. I've met some hippie-ish folks and they've all been baller as hell.

Sort of off topic though.

[Art Vandelay]

I've found that I hate the idea of hippies more than I hate actual hippies. I've met some hippie-ish folks and they've all been baller as hell.

Sort of off topic though.

I have some very good friends I'd consider hippies, including an ex, doesn't change the fact that I find their opinions about things awful.

[Red Economist]

I've had depression for four years and have felt sucicidal over that time. I've had a few moments in the past few weeks when I've considered sucicide but after I while I realise that it is because I'm still fighting.

to try and keep it simple, I'm going to break my anzwer down as a direct response to each of the statements you've made.


It's not an impulsive decision - he has thought it through. I've advised him not to, of course, but he's asking me for a "good reason to live".

The fact he is asking you for a "good reason to live" is actually a good sign. Whilst he has 'thought' about it, he is asking you because he wants to believe that there are good reasons to live. there is something in his consciusness telling him it's an irrational decision.

He's rational, unemotional and somehow convinced of the worthlessness/meaninglessness of his life (and probably of life in general).

the worrying one is 'unemotional' which will rob him of most of the experiences that make life worth living. emotions add the colour to life; without emotions the world is black and white and it does involves thinking in strongly abstract terms, as without emotions you can't spot the 'degrees', the 'grey areas'.
being impulsive and emotional is not a bad thing in itself. we are animals who are governed by our instincts and our emotions. the thinking process is only a tiny proportion of who we are psychologically. being 'impulsive' is part of being alive. e.g. the impulse to eat, sleep, drink, sh*t, have sex and masturbate etc. in order to find some good reasons to live he needs to be more impulsive, since those impulses will usually end in a pleasurable experience. the more often we follow our impulses and the results are good, the more we condition ourselves to expect good outcomes to out actions.

the psychological explanation for wanting to commit suicide is somewhere along the lines of this;

an individuals conscious is divided into three parts, which are interdependent on one another; the 'id' (pleasure principle), the 'ego' (the self) and the 'super-ego' ( the reality principle). In the case of depression, the 'reality principle'/super-ego has become so oppressive as to frustrate the 'id'/pleasure principle from which an intrisnic motivation for living originates.

it is 'wrong' to think of this decision as irrational. Emotions are rational but not in the way we think of; they are caused by the combination of our biological instincts and our environmental stimuli.
we think of emotions as irrational (or dangerous) because they don't fit into our social relations. this is the expression of the contradiction between capitalism (which forces people to be individualistic, selfish and egocentric) and the biological nature of people as social animals. People need to love, laugh, communicate, share things because they are social and this is something which is denied by our society. because it is denied, these emotions are repressed and perverted into destructive tendenices (including sucicide).

Accepting the rationality of our emotions is important because it is a way of convicing ourselves that the desire to commit sucicide has an understandable and legitimate cause, and is a rational end to achieve a sense of control and to 'escape' the sense of oppression, whilst also accepting that it is not the best means to achieve this.

what matters is that he is not resigned to it and it still fighting to live. he still has an impulse to keep on living. don't let reason get in the way of the impulse to keep on living!!


I never thought I'd have trouble thinking of one but it turns out that it really is pretty hard.

This is partly because our society makes it so difficult to have a good reason to live, but mainly because the 'reason' to live is not a thought but an emotion.
Whilst our society celebrates pleasure and hedonism is does so in an incredably passive way by consumerism; I consume something which makes me happy. However, this passivity robs a person of the sense of power by alienating them from the ability to change things; their creative activity. this is the basis of the feeling that a life has conequences and therefore meaning. There is therefore a rather strange relationship between hedonism and nihlism. As a society we enjoy things, but don't enjoy living.

I spent many years reading books in the hope it would give me a 'magic' anzwer that would give me a reason to live. In the end it was making freinds and spending time with them, and the feeling of joy around them, that made he feel I want to live.



In other words, answer the following question - Why should one live?

the problem is in-built in the question.

1. this assumes that living is a conscious decision. It isn't. we never chose to be born or to live and the idea that we can 'chose' to kill ourselves is an illusion that gives us a sense of control over the outcome of our life. that sense of control is incredably destructive both in an individual and in a society. the nature of being a biological organism is that we are already dying because we are already living; if he wants to die, the question is not why we wants to die, but why would he want to die now when he could leave it and let nature takes it's course anyway, but use the time to be happy.

2. The word "should" is revealling; living is a spontanous and natural process that takes place in nature without anyone (or any deity) 'deciding' that they should live. the key is the feeling of being so trapped that there can be no future happines and therefore I "shouldn't" live. the "should" incapsulates the belief that 'living' should be consciously directed- and this has some extremely authoritarian implications if the person doing the direction isn't us. Feeling that we "should" live is indicative of a feeling of oppression and is part of the problem.



Actually one of my friends (who is also some kind of a communist) wants to commit suicide.

As a Communist myself, I can promise you that somewhere in his politics will be a way of rationalising the sense of oppression which makes him feel suicidal. For me, it is the idea of 'totalitarianism' and powerful 'megacorporations' which can destroy everything in their path. somewhere in there is the belief that a 'consciousness' dictates everything- not unlike an oppressive god.

I've had to sit down and feel my way through my beliefs and deconstruct them. find weaknesses and give my impuslve to live a chance. here a few ideas;

1. Corporations and Totalitarian states are constrained by objective limits on their ability to act independent on their will. they can't change things over night.

2. niether powerful corporations nor totalitarian states are the 'inevitable' product of human nature, but are historically conditioned social relations. They do not reflect the human condition in general, only the human condition in a limited time frame. i.e. human beings are not inherently bad, or anti-social to one another; it is a product of our social system.

As your freind is a communist, he will probably feel alot of hostility towards 'the way the world is' and to keep going he needs to let it out because being angry is the ability to fight for your own life and of defending yourself and what you value/makes your happy and life worth living.


What would you do if you were in my place and had to convince him?

the problem is you can't give him a 'reason', as he needs to feel an emotion (because thought is only the surface of our sense of being; the unconscious is much stronger than our thought processes).

as you said;

"I can personally understand that it's a good thing to live but what I'm saying is that it's hard to intellectually convince someone that there's a good reason to live because there probably isn't."

the need for a 'reason' to live is a trick. the question of the "meaning of life" is bullshit because it assumes that there is meaning seperate from life; it is a theological discussion not about an instrinic meaning of life arising from the psychology of instincts and emotions, but a disucssion about the 'higher' meaning of existence in relation to god or some 'consciousness'.
having a 'reason' does not cause a person to live; the process of living nessitates reason. the frsutration of process of living gives people a reason to want to commit suicide.

"He has potential to do interesting things. He writes well and has read many many books. The problem is that he's convinced that there's no reason for him to live. He's frustrated with the world (like a lot of us are) but he has taken that to an extreme and become too pessimistic and depressed."

He needs to re-discover this potential. (I say re-disocver because children aren't sucicidal; it is something which society does to people are they get older). This will give him the reason to keep on living and hopefully overcome the feeling of frustraton.
Share some really good moments with him and just be with him. do what you enjoy, and because that kind of happiness is so infectious, he will enjoy it as well.This will probably be enough to get him to re-think his position and you share with him a good reason to live based on the implicit hope that he can enjoy these things (and your company) in the future.

I hope that I have been of some use.

[Brutus]

I hate the whole 'all we need to do is just hold hands and sing cumbaya all the way to world peace' mentality that permeates the hippy subculture.

'We shall overcome'

[MarxSchmarx]

C2h5oh

But in all honesty, ask your colleague - so what if there were no reason? What matters a reason? Suppose the "reason to live" was to be inter-galactic snack food for a traveling alien race. Does this mean your life is any more meaningful? Presumably not. So then why should you elevate one alleged "reason" over another? But that is entirely the point, the idea is that reason, obviously, doesn't come into to the equation, so if meaning doesn't exist and one's life consists of pain, then what is theso be it point in not ending it prematurely?

Well, look at it this way. It's not reasons per se that make life worth living, but value, particularly, self-created value. If I value getting drunk, that's reason enough not to off myself. If I valued being gobbled up as inter-galactic space food, well, I'll stick around until that happens. Presumably you have values too, like enjoyment gained from reading a great book or posting on revleft. Suicide precludes those values.

[Ele'ill]

A big issue is that people with mental health issues sometimes (often in my experience) want more out of life but that is unattainable for the reasons I stated earlier in this thread that no matter what is done with their life those self created worlds aren't that much different from one another, or they cause too much emotional pain to create.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Suicide may be the fastest way out of existence but you can't improve your condition on Earth if you die. No one knows what happens when a human dies, all we know is that we will all die someday. Extending that day as far as you can means you can stick within a concrete reality for longer, where you know that change is possible, no matter how unlikely.

[Akshay!]

No one knows what happens when a human dies,

Everyone except a religious nut knows "what happens when a human dies" - nothing.

[Fionnagáin]

It seems unwise to write off 99.999% of human beings who've ever lived as "religious nuts".

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I guess the point I was trying to make was that a simple change of scenery isn't going to bring someone out of depression. I mean I agree that there are plenty of options that people with mental illness don't consider, but at the same time if I just got up and moved to go join a hippie commune (I could there is one in my town, I've been invited out to) it wouldn't just suddenly change my mental state. I'd be the same depressed guy, but now surrounded by hippies who would probably piss me off.

Well, the reason I suggested the paths I did (hippies weren't the only suggestion!) was because they involve more than just a change of scenery, they also involve changes in daily routines and being moved out of one's comfort zone into an environment that is hopefully unfamiliar. The idea being that the challenge in adjusting to one's newly chosen circumstances would be sufficient to occupy one's mind at the expense of such ultimately pointless philosophising about the purpose of continuing to live.

If that makes sense.

[Akshay!]

It seems unwise to write off 99.999% of human beings who've ever lived as "religious nuts".

99.999% of human beings who ever lived weren't necessarily religious. That's too exaggerated. And even if they were, believing in an afterlife is delusional. What's false is false no matter how many people believe in it.

"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell


Well, the reason I suggested the paths I did (hippies weren't the only suggestion!) was because they involve more than just a change of scenery, they also involve changes in daily routines and being moved out of one's comfort zone into an environment that is hopefully unfamiliar. The idea being that the challenge in adjusting to one's newly chosen circumstances would be sufficient to occupy one's mind at the expense of such ultimately pointless philosophising about the purpose of continuing to live.

If that makes sense.

So thinking about life is pointless, and "occupying one's mind" in pointless activity is not pointless? Nice.

[Crixus]

Well, the reason I suggested the paths I did (hippies weren't the only suggestion!) was because they involve more than just a change of scenery, they also involve changes in daily routines and being moved out of one's comfort zone into an environment that is hopefully unfamiliar. The idea being that the challenge in adjusting to one's newly chosen circumstances would be sufficient to occupy one's mind at the expense of such ultimately pointless philosophising about the purpose of continuing to live.

If that makes sense.

cKUvKE3bQlY

[cyu]

Why don't capitalists kill themselves? That's what I'm really wondering :grin:

[Crixus]

Why don't capitalists kill themselves? That's what I'm really wondering :grin:
I have way too much time on my hands but celebrating this is not good so I'm not celebrating this I'm just posting this information. I'd celebrate a capitalist killing himself after a crash on the market but suffering from depression no.

http://www.businesspundit.com/10-millionaire-businessmen-who-committed-suicide/

[cyu]

Well, they know they're the scum of the earth if they take an honest look at themselves (see also http://www.revleft.com/vb/valve-corporation-no-t170623/index4.html#74 ). About the only way they can convince themselves they're actually worthy of the rest of the world and not just a waste of space, is to constantly lie to themselves and pay their toadies to give them daily affirmations ;)

[Akshay!]

Why don't capitalists kill themselves? That's what I'm really wondering :grin:

They're great at deluding themselves into thinking that they really matter?

Actually, now that I think about it, we all are.

[cyu]

If you were to imagine any group of people that can be the most unworthy of the rest of the world, and the biggest waste of space, what characteristics would they have? Seems like the capitalist class fits that description better than just about anybody else.

[Crixus]

The official soundtrack for this thread

BeUkgq_KmqQ

[Fionnagáin]

99.999% of human beings who ever lived weren't necessarily religious. That's too exaggerated. zAnd even if they were, believing in an afterlife is delusional. What's false is false no matter how many people believe in it.

"Sanity is not statistical." - George Orwell
Well, I suppose I'm an old school humanist, so I tend to think that if so many people were getting it wrong in the same way for so long, there must be something more going on the than them all being nitwits. Opiate of the people, and so forth.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

So thinking about life is pointless, and "occupying one's mind" in pointless activity is not pointless? Nice.

"Thinking about life" is pointless if you're seeking some kind of external validation or justification of it, because there just isn't any to be had. Life is a fortuitous confluence of natural circumstances which despite the cosmological depth of their indifference have given rise to an organism capable of thinking more deeply than where its next meal is coming from, i.e., us. What you choose to make of this unparalleled and most likely absolutely unique perspective on reality is ultimately up to you. There are no deities handing down Meaning and Purpose down to us from On High, teleology is entirely absent from the universe as a whole, and Nature does not and cannot care about you and your petty concerns, confined as they are to a single speck of rock orbiting a small and unremarkable star lost in the billions of stars that make up one galaxy out of trillions. If things were otherwise, how are you sure that you would not chafe at the idea of having your meaning and purpose already laid out for you? Better to build our own in the face of an indifferent cosmos, than to be trapped in a futile raging against the chains of fate and destiny.

Also, adjusting to new circumstances is never pointless. In fact it is a very good survival trait.


cKUvKE3bQlY

I'm not sure what point you're making here. Are you seriously comparing food choices with a wholesale change in lifestyle?

[Zanthorus]

Ask him how he plans to read Marx if he commits suicide?

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

Everyone except a religious nut knows "what happens when a human dies" - nothing.

There is no consensus about what happens after death, it's all based on assertions. That's what I mean by 'know'. So many suggestions exist, but there aren't any verifiable ones except the fact that our physical body ceases to function.

[Ele'ill]

all we are is a physical body

[Akshay!]

There is no consensus about what happens after death


except the fact that our physical body ceases to function.

You answered yourself.

[cyu]

Ask him how he plans to read Marx if he commits suicide?


Great, now I'll never get to the end of Das Kapital :crying::laugh:

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

You answered yourself.

Uh no, I simply didn't explain myself fully. In the real world, all we know that happens is that the physical portion of the body dies. If there is anything other than that, we have no idea what happens or if there is some other event that occurs etc. All we can see from this end is that a physical body stops functioning. That doesn't mean that we know what actually happens to the human being itself during and after death, if there is an after.

Do you see my point? We don't know if there is or isn't an after, so there is no consensus about death.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Uh no, I simply didn't explain myself fully. In the real world, all we know that happens is that the physical portion of the body dies.

What other portion is there?

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

What other portion is there?

That's my point, we don't know whether there is or isn't another portion or aspect of a human being so discussing what happens after death results in mere speculation.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

That's my point, we don't know whether there is or isn't another portion or aspect of a human being so discussing what happens after death results in mere speculation.

Given the complete lack evidence in favour of anything like a soul, Occam's Razor would strongly suggest that death is the end as far as individual human experience is concerned.

[Fionnagáin]

Occam's Razor is just a rule of thumb. It's not actually proof of anything one way or the other.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Occam's Razor is just a rule of thumb. It's not actually proof of anything one way or the other.

True, but when one considers what we do know about the nature of consciousness, death as the end of experience would be the one assumption I would work from.

[Rusty Shackleford]

life is meaningless so, therefore, you give your life meaning.

some people do enjoy dedication and all out being a communist (not like dress up but just living and breathing it) some people enjoy just being a hedonist, and some others enjoy having a job.



some other times people have reasons to live that they have less control over. they brought another life into being. they have a lifelong partner. for example, this older guy at my job has a wife (he calls mama) and he said he would rather kill himself than to not provide for her, because then at least life insurance can pay out.



and even then. were back to this point of life being meaningless. if it is, then is it not at least interesting to actually experience it? Sure, death may relieve one of the universal burden (whoa) but then again, your dead. so... whatever...



for me though, what drives me into an occasional though not usually suicidal crisis is just repetition with a "no way out" feeling. i found a good remedy, like my choice in music, is a looooong and somewhat drawn out change. now, for me long is a few days, before i return and usually with greatly lifted spirits. interruptions in routine are what i like. though its also difficult when everything surrounding money and sustaining ones own life in a certain manner act as a tether. im talking about work and time-off.

i remember i also said once 'what good is a bunch of reds offing themselves' and also what sort of stuck to me is when watching 'death of a nation' talking about post-soviet russia it was talking about hoe people felt they had a common purpose for all of humanity, and it was all swept away. like marx said:


The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It has pitilessly torn asunder the motley feudal ties that bound man to his "natural superiors," and has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous "cash payment." It has drowned the most heavenly ecstasies of religious fervor, of chivalrous enthusiasm, of philistine sentimentalism, in the icy water of egotistical calculation. It has resolved personal worth into exchange value, and in place of the numberless indefeasible chartered freedoms, has set up that single, unconscionable freedom - Free Trade. In one word, for exploitation veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation.
The bourgeoisie has stripped of its halo every occupation hitherto honoured and looked up to with reverent awe. It has converted the physician, the lawyer, the priest, the poet, the man of science, into its paid wage labourers.


im not arguing for a return to the feudal order or a draping of shit jobs in fancy language but this is what we are left with. this is what our existence is today. and it sucks. transforming that existence is a great motivator though.

[Ele'ill]

That's my point, we don't know whether there is or isn't another portion or aspect of a human being so discussing what happens after death results in mere speculation.

no i think we know what living creatures are pretty much in their entirety and we know what makes them alive

[homo sapien]

The point of life is to live. To grow, to flourish, to actualize your potential. This is something which must be experienced, not grasped intellectually. Your friend needs to find things he's good at and enjoys to pursue and master. A living creature needs to grow and expand, and when you're in a depressive funk it's hard to do this. One thing that could help is to start making a schedule every day of constructive and growth-oriented activities to do (outside of work, if your friend has a job). Learn a new skill, change careers, go back to school, start a new exercise routine, write a book, mow the lawn. The important thing is to do something. Another thing that can help is to get involved volunteering in some way and experience a feeling of being needed by others. Even just volunteering to talk to people in a nursing home or help clean up a stream can help. If your friend has a little more energy and is a leftist, getting more involved in political organizing might help him experience a reason to live. One of the things that depressed people do is "discounting the positive" wherein they deny their own talents and contributions and the positive role they play in the lives of others. Learning to refocus on the positive aspects of oneself and one's contributions to the world can help. If your friend is not willing to see a psychologist but is willing to read a book, "Feeling Good" by Dr. Burns is a good book with very practical suggestions for activities to use to complete a depression treatment plan on your own. For questions of meaning, Victor Frankl's psychological writings may help.

[cyu]

what good is a bunch of reds offing themselves

When you can't kill your enemies, what's a sociopath to do?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUHk2RSMCS8

[Palmares]

One quote I like:


By disclaiming the idea of the next life we can take more excitement in this one. The here and now is not something to be endured before eternal bliss or damnation. The here and now is all we have, an inspiration to make the most of it. So atheism is life affirming in a way that religion can never be.
Look around you, nature demands our attention. It begs us to explore, to question. Religion can only provide only fascile, ulimately unsatisfying answers. Science, in constantly seeking real explanations reveals the true magesty of our world in all its complexity.
People sometimes say, there must be more than just this world, than just this life, but how much more do you want? We are going to die, and that makes us the lucky ones. Most people are never going to die because theyre never going to be born. The number of people that could be here in my place outnumber the sand grains of sahara. If you think about all the different ways our genes could be permuted you and i are quite grotesquely lucky to be here, the number of events that had to happen in order for you to exist, in order for me to exist. We are privileged to be alive and we should make the most of our time on this world.

I don't wholeheartedly agree with Dawkins generally, but I think this is a pretty awesome positive atheism quote.

[Homo Songun]

 

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

no i think we know what living creatures are pretty much in their entirety and we know what makes them alive

That's just an assertion, it's pretty baseless scientifically. Whilst we can verify that death = the end of the consciousness we already know, and of bodily functions, is not proof that there is no other consciousness, nor any other function of our body.

I mean, you and I can believe, and assert, that there is no other function, but it is just that - a belief, an assertion. There is, as far as i'm away, not much literature that reliably informs us of any 'unkown unkowns', in terms of consequences after death.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Well, there's no evidence against the idea that when we die our consciousness goes to a faraway candyland complete with rivers of ice-cream soda, yet nobody seems to seriously consider it as a possibility in spite of the fact it has just as much backing as any other vision of the afterlife.

[Let's Get Free]

To answer the OP's question, life is a reason unto itself. Life is not a means to an end, it is the means and the end. To have a "reason" is unnecessary. Why does anything exist? It is not a why, there does not have to be a reason aside from the fact that it does, in fact, exist.

If your friend requires a reason, then he won't be able to live, because life is irrational. There is no reason at all for anything to exist.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Genesis P. Orridge once said something along the lines of this, after almost committing suicide, "Live in spite of the people who would rather you were dead".

[Ele'ill]

That's just an assertion, it's pretty baseless scientifically. Whilst we can verify that death = the end of the consciousness we already know, and of bodily functions, is not proof that there is no other consciousness, nor any other function of our body.

I mean, you and I can believe, and assert, that there is no other function, but it is just that - a belief, an assertion. There is, as far as i'm away, not much literature that reliably informs us of any 'unkown unkowns', in terms of consequences after death.

wouldn't you say that scientifically/medically we know what makes us conscious as humans and what makes other animals conscious as well

[blake 3:17]

wouldn't you say that scientifically/medically we know what makes us conscious as humans and what makes other animals conscious as well

That's silly Cartesian talk. It has its own utility, but one certainly shouldn't decide some ultimate or overarching limit or limits of consciousness according to some medical model.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

That's silly Cartesian talk. It has its own utility, but one certainly shouldn't decide some ultimate or overarching limit or limits of consciousness according to some medical model.

How is it Cartesian? And what basis have we to suppose that consciousness is anything more than a systemic phenomenon of certain kinds of material organisation that we just don't understand enough about in algorithmic terms to replicate artificially?

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

wouldn't you say that scientifically/medically we know what makes us conscious as humans and what makes other animals conscious as well

We are aware of the senses that form at least part of our consciousness, i.e. hearing, seeing, feeling, smelling etc.

But we don't know - categorically, scientifically - that there is no other part of us that forms our consciousness.

I do tend to err on your side of the debate, my point is just that we can't state categorically that there isn't some sort of unknown, 'unconscious' consciousness that we aren't aware of.

[Ele'ill]

I honestly think we have enough medical/science data to theorize and begin to prove that life is chemical and electrical and once that ceases we die and aren't alive any longer. That direction has yielded explanations.

[opossumman]

Maybe bring your friend here to be surrounded by fellow comrads who share there beliefs. This is really all the advice I can give since one of my friends went through the same thing, just keep them close and keep an eye on them.

[kurious]

a good reason to live? try to change something in my society. i was born and raised in a conservative muslim society and women here are oppressed

[Akshay!]

Comrades, this is my last post on this forum (or anywhere). I lied to you. This thread was not about my friend. It was about me. Before dying, I just want to say that this is an amazing forum and I really enjoyed these last months here.

Good luck for the revolution!

“Sooner rather than later, the great avenues will open again and free men will walk through them to construct a better society.”
– Salvador Allende (Last Words)

[slum]

hey man i think a lot of us suspected this thread was about you- it seemed like kind of a last ditch attempt to figure out some of the problems you've been struggling with. i hope this doesn't sound patronizing but an internet forum full of cynics probably isn't the best place to find those answers. or maybe it is- a lot of the people who replied here have been through these same questions and come out of it alive, not always because they found some perfectly logical answer to 'why live' but because their circumstances changed. diamat, dude- your material surroundings, including your brain chemicals, dictate your behaviour. please give changing those chemicals around a shot before you make a decision you can't back out of- antidepressants, dope, whatever you want.

your posts here are always so full of passion and outrage at the injustice of the world, and that shows you live intensely and feel intensely. i know personally how fucking exhausting that can be. but this is the only shot you get. selfishly, i don't want to lose any more comrades- comrades in the socialist project and comrades in that weird subset of humanity that feels too deeply. please reconsider. capital is designed to crush us to paste, those of us who look out on its works and rage and vomit and want to die- but the fault isn't with us, or with life. i think you probably know that.

if you decide to do it, i think people will understand. but it's hard to see this kind of post and not feel like it's a colossal waste. you don't owe the world anything, but it would be poorer (and sorry if this sounds cheesy) without you. solidarity

[Ele'ill]

Comrades, this is my last post on this forum (or anywhere). I lied to you. This thread was not about my friend. It was about me. Before dying, I just want to say that this is an amazing forum and I really enjoyed these last months here.

Good luck for the revolution!

I'm glad you found enjoyment in your last months. If by chance you check the forum one last time I think you should reconsider often.

[Red Economist]

Comrades, this is my last post on this forum (or anywhere). I lied to you. This thread was not about my friend. It was about me. Before dying, I just want to say that this is an amazing forum and I really enjoyed these last months here.

I'm very sad to here this and hoped that this thread would have a happy ending (or rather beggining). But I understand your decision as it is so hard to become free in this society. I hope it is the right one for you. :crying:

p.s. write a letter to your freinds and family, so that they know how you arrived at your decision. it gives you one last chance just to sit and think about it and to make sure and will help them come to terms with it. From experience, I know that if you can't do it, it means your not ready and you will want to keep going.

[V.Vendetta]

Why should one live? To pursue happiness. Happiness is valuable for its own sake, we all desire it. You should live to pursue your desires and increase your overall level of happiness and joy. Of course life is not always going to be good, the bad comes along with it. Nevertheless, we are free to create our own lives, even here and now in the midst of an oppressive and enslaving social system. We can all choose to think for ourselves, understand our desires, and act upon them freely.

Really this all comes down to one fundamental, existential choice; to embrace life or to reject it. That is a choice we must all make. If you embrace life you will be embracing all that entails, the good and the bad. But it is without a doubt a worth while choice. Embrace life, choose to live free right now, and pursue your happiness without any fear of the forces that attempt to enslave you.

Once you come to understand your own inherent freedom and self-determination, life becomes a joy rather than a force seemingly out of your control. My quality of life has greatly improved since I came to understand my own power as an individual. Ever since I decided to live life on my own terms, it has been a great joy. My revolutionary activities are an extension of the fact that a free life inevitably puts you into conflict with the powers that be. I embrace that conflict joyfully.

Live life to the fullest right now and don't let anything hold you back. As long as happiness is even a possibility, we ought to embrace life and live it to the limits.

[Sasha]

I'm very sad to here this and hoped that this thread would have a happy ending (or rather beggining). But I understand your decision as it is so hard to become free in this society. I hope it is the right one for you. :crying:

p.s. write a letter to your freinds and family, so that they know how you arrived at your decision. it gives you one last chance just to sit and think about it and to make sure and will help them come to terms with it. From experience, I know that if you can't do it, it means your not ready and you will want to keep going.


note, he is checking in daily to see how this thread is going, just so you know...

[The Feral Underclass]

Being alive is a good reason to live.

[Orange Juche]

Cause when you manage to let go of shit and just be, and kind of just laugh at everything - when you're lucky enough to hit those moments - you realize that just existing just feels fucking amazing, and that feeling is worth it.

[Akshay!]

Unfortunately (or fortunately?) the (overdose) attempt failed.

I was checking this from the hospital but couldn't post as I had weird things going into my arm (and a long tube into my nose). Apart from that, I have to drink this (Extremely) bitter medicine every 4 hours. Anyway, I'm recovering now and will be discharged in a few more days.

Now that I think about it, this was probably not a good idea and I won't be attempting it again any time soon.

In other words, I'm back. :)

And, thanks for your post @slum.

[Decolonize The Left]

You may find this of interest:

The greatest weight.-- What, if some day or night a demon were to steal after you into your loneliest loneliness and say to you: "This life as you now live it and have lived it, you will have to live once more and innumerable times more; and there will be nothing new in it, but every pain and every joy and every thought and sigh and everything unutterably small or great in your life will have to return to you, all in the same succession and sequence - even this spider and this moonlight between the trees, and even this moment and I myself. The eternal hourglass of existence is turned upside down again and again, and you with it, speck of dust!"
Would you not throw yourself down and gnash your teeth and curse the demon who spoke thus?... Or how well disposed would you have to become to yourself and to life to crave nothing more fervently than this ultimate eternal confirmation and seal?

[Zerubbabel]

The meaning of life is a question, not for the suicidal, but for the survivors, those committed to living.

Eric Hoffer wrote that "The poor on the borderline of starvation live purposeful lives. To be engaged in a desperate struggle for food and shelter is to be wholly free from a sense of futility."

In 1917 90+% of all people worked to feed our populations. Now it is like less than 5%. Surely this presents a challenge to our sense of futility. The only offering we have so far is consumerism - to continue to work as hard as when our survival depended on it, yet working for baubles, not basics.

[Sotionov]

"What is the meaning of life?" is a question many people ask themselves at some point during their lives, most in the context "What is the purpose of life?".[10] Some popular answers include:

To realize one's potential and ideals


To chase dreams.[136]
To live one's dreams.[137]
To spend it for something that will outlast it.[138]
To matter: to count, to stand for something, to have made some difference that you lived at all.[138]
To expand one's potential in life.[137]
To become the person you've always wanted to be.[139]
To become the best version of yourself.[140]
To seek happiness[141][142] and flourish.[3]
To be a true authentic human being.[143]
To be able to put the whole of oneself into one's feelings, one's work, one's beliefs.[138]
To follow or submit to our destiny.[144][145][146]
To achieve eudaimonia,[147] a flourishing of human spirit.

To achieve biological perfection


To survive,[148] that is, to live as long as possible,[149] including pursuit of immortality (through scientific means).[150]
To live forever[150] or die trying.[151]
To evolve.[152][153]
To replicate, to reproduce.[136] "The 'dream' of every cell is to become two cells."[154][155][156][157]

To seek wisdom and knowledge


To expand one's perception of the world.[137]
To follow the clues and walk out the exit.[158]
To learn as many things as possible in life.[159]
To know as much as possible about as many things as possible.[160]
To seek wisdom and knowledge and to tame the mind, as to avoid suffering caused by ignorance and find happiness.[161]
To face our fears and accept the lessons life offers us.[144]
To find the meaning or purpose of life.[162][163]
To find a reason to live.[164]
To resolve the imbalance of the mind by understanding the nature of reality.[165]

To do good, to do the right thing


To leave the world as a better place than you found it.[136]
To do your best to leave every situation better than you found it.[136]
To benefit others.[6]
To give more than you take.[136]
To end suffering.[166][167][168]
To create equality.[169][170][171]
To challenge oppression.[172]
To distribute wealth.[173][174]
To be generous.[175][176]
To contribute to the well-being and spirit of others.[177]
To help others,[3][176] to help one another.[178]
To take every chance to help another while on your journey here.[136]
To be creative and innovative.[177]
To forgive.[136]
To accept and forgive human flaws.[179][180]
To be emotionally sincere.[138]
To be responsible.[138]
To be honorable.[138]
To seek peace.[138]

Meanings relating to religion


To reach the highest heaven and be at the heart of the Divine.[181]
To have a pure soul and experience God.[138]
To understand the mystery of God.[144]
To know or attain union with God.[182][183]
To know oneself, know others, and know the will of heaven.[184]
To love something bigger, greater, and beyond ourselves, something we did not create or have the power to create, something intangible and made holy by our very belief in it.[136]
To love God[182] and all of his creations.[185]
To glorify God by enjoying him forever.[52][186]
To go and make new disciples of Jesus Christ.[187]
To act justly, love mercy, and walk humbly with your God.[188]
To be fruitful and multiply.[189] (Genesis 1:28)
To obtain freedom (Romans 8:20-21)
To fill the Earth and subdue it.[189] (Genesis 1:28)

To love, to feel, to enjoy the act of living


To love more.[136]
To love those who mean the most. Every life you touch will touch you back.[136]
To treasure every enjoyable sensation one has.[136]
To seek beauty in all its forms.[136]
To have fun or enjoy life.[144][177]
To seek pleasure[138] and avoid pain.[190]
To be compassionate.[138]
To be moved by the tears and pain of others, and try to help them out of love and compassion.[136]
To love others as best we possibly can.[136]

To seek pleasure


To eat, drink, and be merry.[191]

To have power, to be better


To strive for power[25] and superiority.[190]
To rule the world.[145]
To know and master the world.[187][192]
To know and master nature.[193]

...

If no reason on this list motivates someone to live and do anything in their life, then I would advise them to go and commit suicide.

[Zaza]

If he has no reason to live, he has already one. To find his place in this world and his meaning to mankind.

[cyu]

From http://everything2.com/title/memetic+evolution

While biological systems are made up of many individual genes, thought systems are composed of memes. Each person is not only a carrier of a set of genes, but a set of memes as well. This set of memes, however, is easier to change within a person - parts of it are also easier to pass on to other individuals. Just as few individuals are genetically identical, few are also memetically identical.

In general, in can be said that a set of genes that better enables an individual to survive is more likely to be passed on to later generations of offspring. The same can be said of a set of memes. However, just as there are genetic urges to mate that may put at risk a person's survival, there are also memetic urges to propagandize that may also put biological survival at risk.

[Manar]

What, to do one's duty and serve the proletariat as a loyal communist is not a noble enough life's goal for your friend? Let him go, then.

[Soman]

Let him do it. Honestly, life is total shit and completely boring for many people. Life has no purpose, it has no meaning, it has no value. Your family, your friends, everyone you meet is nothing. Once you die, they won't matter, nothing will.

Sometimes choosing to live is just choosing a longer, more painful death.

[cyu]

life is total shit and completely boring... Life has no purpose, it has no meaning, it has no value. Your family, your friends, everyone you meet is nothing. Once you die, they won't matter, nothing will.


Now if we could get pro-capitalists and other assorted sociopaths to believe this, we'd be all set ;)

[Decolonize The Left]

Let him do it. Honestly, life is total shit and completely boring for many people. Life has no purpose, it has no meaning, it has no value. Your family, your friends, everyone you meet is nothing. Once you die, they won't matter, nothing will.

Sometimes choosing to live is just choosing a longer, more painful death.

No one is forcing him to do anything. Obviously it is his choice but he started a thread to ask opinions and people are entitled to express their desire to have someone remain alive.

Your ridiculously naive nihilism is boring.