This is why religion is evil!

[Willin']

Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism ... it's nothing compared to islam. I can't imagine the horrors those women go through living under that repressive system.

Warning:Hart breaking pictures:

handbookforinfidels.com/Its-the-Islam.html

[Goblin]

Islam sucks, yes. But why link to a right wing site showing sick, graphic pictures? Isn't there a better way of criticizing Islam?

And are you actually claiming that hinduism degrades women? You do know that about half of Hinduisms deities are women (Godesses), right?

[Willin']

Islam sucks, yes. But why link to a right wing site showing sick, graphic pictures? Isn't there a better way of criticizing Islam?

And are you actually claiming that hinduism degrades women? You do know that about half of Hinduisms deities are women (Godesses), right?

It's pretty hard to get left-wing sites who have such pictures on their sites.
well you know a picture tells you an million words

and no i'm not

[Luís Henrique]

handbookforinfidels.com/Its-the-Islam.html


Photos like these are so shocking to Western sensibilities (read that “civilized sensibilities”)Farting arseholes.

China was a civilised country at a time these gentlemen's ancestors were burning sinagogues and eating with their hands. Civilised=Western? Give me a break.


, they demand some sort of explanation. How could things like this occur in the 21st Century? How could a culture be so totally alien from our own -- so utterly medieval?Believe it or not, in great part because our "Western sensibilities" have had a nice time bombing and strafing such people back into the middle ages.

Really will have to wait until my lunch is more firmly placed into my stomach before reading the rest of the drivel.

Luís Henrique

[Fionnagáin]

Religion isn't even really a thing. It's just an awkward way Europeans developed of lumping together certain kinds of beliefs, practices and institutions that they associated with each other. Attributing any meaningful characteristics one way or the other is basically pretty silly.

[Nevsky]

There is no need to present Islam as something more (or less) evil than the other abrahamic religions. Atrocities happened in the name of all of those. Islam is just the youngest of them an didn't adapt to enlightenment as much as christianity was forced to (in worst case countries like Afghanistan). The fact that such "evil" religious backwardness still exists in some places is the fault of right-wing american foreign policy; the right wingers are the last ones who should complain about Islam. Remember the ridiculous film Rambo 3? Where the Taliban were heroic freedom fighters against soviet oppression?

[Red Nightmare]

Any system or ideology such as religion that encourages people to be irrational, dogmatic, or unquestioning to authority (be it human or divine) is bound to lead to repression and violence. I'd be surprised to find a major religion that hasn't had some history of violence.

[homegrown terror]

Any system or ideology such as religion that encourages people to be irrational, dogmatic, or unquestioning to authority (be it human or divine) is bound to lead to repression and violence. I'd be surprised to find a major religion that hasn't had some history of violence.

i just spent a minute in my head trying to think of one example to counter that and i can't. even modern "new age" religions can't be counted, even rastafarianism has been connected to violent black nationalist/supremacist movements. i fully acknowledge that my religion (germanic heathenism) has a grotesque history of violence, and i will be the first to say the gods would indeed be proud of me were i to die in some worthy struggle, but that doesn't mean i glorify or seek out senseless bloodshed in the name of religion.

ironically enough, i think the religions with the least blood on their hands are the ones the majority of the world see as the most evil, such as lavey's church of satan and crowley's OTO.

[bcbm]

Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism ... it's nothing compared to islam. I can't imagine the horrors those women go through living under that repressive system.

so your title says 'religion is evil'

but apparently its just islam, because no one associated with of the other religions mentioned has ever done anything wrong? gimme a break

[Zostrianos]

ironically enough, i think the religions with the least blood on their hands are the ones the majority of the world see as the most evil, such as lavey's church of satan and crowley's OTO.

Absolutely. It's usually the ones that claim to be the only truth, and that portray themselves as pillars of goodness, that commit the most crimes, the Church above all. In fact when you look at it, it's completely mind boggling how a single institution could become so powerful as to leave so much death and destruction in its path in most of the world, and that for over 1500 years, eradicating entire cultures wherever it went. And it continues today, with missionaries spreading like cancer throughout the third world, deceiving the poor with their false charity and scams.

[Comrade Nasser]

I dislike all religions, but they are awesome to learn about.

Another thing: All religions have good and bad, it's just that the bad ones tend to be the loudest...

[Desy]

Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism ... it's nothing compared to islam. I can't imagine the horrors those women go through living under that repressive system.

Warning:Hart breaking pictures:

handbookforinfidels.com/Its-the-Islam.html

Islam-phobia FTW!!

[Willin']

Islam-phobia FTW!!

Oh yea god damn sand monkeys.

Look face it islam is one of the most aggressive and crazy religions we know. I'm not defending any other religions,i was just trying to make an point,what religion makes out of people.
So stop being a bunch of smart asses and let's focus on the theme for once,will we ever see a world without religion,why does religion have such an impact on us,....Just stop with this flame wars.

[Desy]

Oh yea god damn sand monkeys.

Look face it islam is one of the most aggressive and crazy religions we know. I'm not defending any other religions,i was just trying to make an point,what religion makes out of people.
So stop being a bunch of smart asses and let's focus on the theme for once,will we ever see a world without religion,why does religion have such an impact on us,....Just stop with this flame wars.

That's sad :*(. Please go read the Koran. Please stop flaming and read a book before you judge everyone. Not every Christian is the Westboro Babtist church of hate. Not every Muslim is an extremist. Please grow up. Your classic negativity ruins revleft. You're depressing.

[Eleutheromaniac]

Please go read the Koran.

I think that's the issue. The extremists tend to come from countries with low literacy rates. Maybe if they read their holy book, along the other Abrahamic holy books, they would understand how completely similar their religions are (and how ridiculous they are).

[Per Levy]

Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism ... it's nothing compared to islam.

how so? they are all religions, 3 of the 4 you mentioned are actually brothers/sisters/siblings because they have all the same basis. and tbh, if christianity or hinduism would as "critizised" as islam nowadays you probally wouldnt think that "Christianity, Judaism, and Hinduism ... it's nothing compared to islam.".

[Hit The North]

Advocates of all the major world religions have perpetrated atrocities and this is hardly news for any socialist/communist/anarchist.

I don't see the point of this thread, besides the OP using it as a veil to practice his Islamophobia.

The promotion of a right-wing, racist website should also invite an infraction on the head of the OP.

On the whole, this is quite a disgusting piece of trolling on Willin's behalf.

[Devrim]

Warning:Hart breaking pictures:

http://www.handbookforinfidels.com/Photos/two_views.jpg

I'd just like to ask what is heart-breaking about this one. I would imagine that it is somewhere like İstanbul. There are countries in the West of course where it is illegal for women to dress like that such as France, or others where Muslim women suffer immense amounts of verbal and physical violence for the way that they are dressed. Something which I believe that posts like yours play a part, however small, in encouraging. Of course it is just a co-incidence that Muslims just happen to be members of a minority in the West and there is nothing racial in it at all.

This picture is heartbreaking:
https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ4DuwhJ0pSYwk52IV7hLH6nb-H-zY710M2pNnxHGUDaWuPUTz3FA
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It is a Muslim mother mourning for her children who have just been murdered by Christian militia men. It was taken in September 1982 after an assault by Christian militiamen on refugees in Beirut during which over 3,000 people, mostly women and children were massacred. To put it in perspective that is more than the number that died in the 9/11 bombings.

We hear a lot less about things like this though.

Devrim

[Luís Henrique]

We hear a lot less about things like this though.

Not even that. We just forget them quicklier, or classify them as politics rather than religion.

Bosnian Muslims slaughtered by Serbian Christians,
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1eqeQ8VaMCE/Thf18KkGuUI/AAAAAAAAAG8/zw8SnGdEbho/s640/Sarajevo+%2528Genocid+u+Bosni%2529+4.jpg
something that we heard a lot about, nauseatingly indeed, but opted to discard from our collective memory - or to remember as something that has nothing to do with either Islam or Christianity.

Luís Henrique

[Tim Cornelis]

I think that's the issue. The extremists tend to come from countries with low literacy rates. Maybe if they read their holy book, along the other Abrahamic holy books, they would understand how completely similar their religions are (and how ridiculous they are).

Extremist Islamists tend to be the most highly educated in countries like Afghanistan and for this reason the less educated look up to them. Many Islamists attend so-called madrassas. Often madrassas are the only access to education people have. In Pakistan, for instance, millions attend these madrassas and turn extremist, so it's foolish to suggest their extremism stems from ignorance -- often it's quite the contrary.


That's sad :*(. Please go read the Koran. Please stop flaming and read a book before you judge everyone. Not every Christian is the Westboro Babtist church of hate. Not every Muslim is an extremist. Please grow up. Your classic negativity ruins revleft. You're depressing.

If every Christian read every part of the Bible there'd be a lot more members of the WBC, and the same goes for reading the Koran. These books are filled with hatred, genocide, and advocacy of religious persecution. You suggest as if the violence linked to in this thread does not stem from the Koran, to which I suggest please go read the Koran.

[Desy]

If every Christian read every part of the Bible there'd be a lot more members of the WBC, and the same goes for reading the Koran. These books are filled with hatred, genocide, and advocacy of religious persecution. You suggest as if the violence linked to in this thread does not stem from the Koran, to which I suggest please go read the Koran.

Wow. So you haven't read the Koran. You probably look at stupid memes, and come post like you know what you're saying. I have read the Koran, and yes there is violence in it, but it's also very poetic. I couldn't imagine what it would be like if I was able to read it in Arabic. Religion is good. I myself do not believe in any religion, but if it makes you feel good and gives you a better life and makes you better person-more power to you. It's twats that don't understand religion that are extremist and ignorant people like you; that ruin religion for the people that use it to better human life. Have you read a book ever? People do shit in the name of marx/communism that are horrible acts to humans, but we still want a revolution.. hmmmm. -insert philoraptor meme here- Don't come here with your anti islam elitist rhetoric. You islam phobic fascist.

[Tim Cornelis]

Wow. So you haven't read the Koran. You probably look at stupid memes, and come post like you know what you're saying. I have read the Koran, and yes there is violence in it, but it's also very poetic. I couldn't imagine what it would be like if I was able to read it in Arabic. Religion is good. I myself do not believe in any religion, but if it makes you feel good and gives you a better life and makes you better person-more power to you. It's twats that don't understand religion that are extremist and ignorant people like you; that ruin religion for the people that use it to better human life. Have you read a book ever? People do shit in the name of marx/communism that are horrible acts to humans, but we still want a revolution.. hmmmm. -insert philoraptor meme here- Don't come here with your anti islam elitist rhetoric. You islam phobic fascist.

What am I supposed to reply here? You made no argument whatsoever, you make baseless assertions (which aren't accurate, maybe you are projecting your spare time activity of memes unto me), and then you go on to call me a fascist because I say the Bible and the Koran are filled with hatred, genocide, and advocacy of religious persecution, (which is factually accurate) to which you seem to admit I'm right (in response to this: "yes the violence is in there"). I'd tell you to grow up, but judging by how you write and the childish insults you so unsubstantiated hurled at me I judge you are quite young. And apparently, criticising the Bible and Koran to the same extent makes me an Islamophobe, but not a Christianphobe.

Do you know how discussions work? Thesis, antithesis, synthesis, arguments against and for, weighing pros and cons against each other. It certainly doesn't go, "you said something I don't like, so you haven't read any books ever and you are a fascist."

[Desy]

I think that's the issue. The extremists tend to come from countries with low literacy rates. Maybe if they read their holy book, along the other Abrahamic holy books, they would understand how completely similar their religions are (and how ridiculous they are).

I agree. It's not a scary religion problem. It's an oppression problem. Mainly from capitalism, but yes there will always be extremist.

[Desy]

What am I supposed to reply here? You made no argument whatsoever, you make baseless assertions (which aren't accurate, maybe you are projecting your spare time activity of memes unto me), and then you go on to call me a fascist because I say the Bible and the Koran are filled with hatred, genocide, and advocacy of religious persecution, (which is factually accurate) to which you seem to admit I'm right (in response to this: "yes the violence is in there"). I'd tell you to grow up, but judging by how you write and the childish insults you so unsubstantiated hurled at me I judge you are quite young. And apparently, criticising the Bible and Koran to the same extent makes me an Islamophobe, but not a Christianphobe.

Do you know how discussions work? Thesis, antithesis, synthesis, arguments against and for, weighing pros and cons against each other. It certainly doesn't go, "you said something I don't like, so you haven't read any books ever and you are a fascist."

Lol. I wasn't having a discussion with you. Just pointed out your ignorance to religion and your over site of genocide with people claiming to Marxist, and how you're a hypocrit. I didn't insult you just because " I didn't like what you said". I insulted you because you're ignorant.

Back to this "discussion" you want. Talking to ignorant people, like you, about religion is a waste of time. It's like talking to narrow minded right-captial Americans on the pros of communism. No matter what you say they have half thought up examples on how it doesnt work, with out understanding the real problem. And I don't feel like throwing scripture around, because you're to narrow minded to discuss scripture of some relgions, so that's a waste of time. So with that, and your insults, you didn't understand what I was doing. I wasn't having a discussion with you, because you have no good points.

Now I hope La Pulga Atomica wants to have a discussion, because that person has a good point to a great discussion. And I'm sorry. You christian/islam-phobic fascist.

[Tim Cornelis]

Lol. I wasn't having a discussion with you. Just pointed out your ignorance to religion and your over site of genocide with people claiming to Marxist, and how you're a hypocrit. I didn't insult you just because " I didn't like what you said". I insulted you because you're ignorant.

Back to this "discussion" you want. Talking to ignorant people, like you, about religion is a waste of time. It's like talking to narrow minded right-captial Americans on the pros of communism. No matter what you say they have half thought up examples on how it doesnt work, with out understanding the real problem. And I don't feel like throwing scripture around, because you're to narrow minded to discuss scripture of some relgions, so that's a waste of time. So with that, and your insults, you didn't understand what I was doing. I wasn't having a discussion with you, because you have no good points.

Now I hope La Pulga Atomica wants to have a discussion, because that person has a good point to a great discussion. And I'm sorry. You christian/islam-phobic fascist.

I must have mistaken this website for a discussion forum. You accuse me of close mindedness while I barely even said anything about religion at all. This was, apparently, sufficient enough for you to utterly refuse any discussion, any arguments, any exchange of ideas at all. You are close minded, you are the Tea Party members discussing communism -- not me. I'm willing to have a discussion, I'll gladly have my mind changed that the Bible and the Koran are not filled with hatred because the majority of the world is Christian or Muslim. So I'm actually biased in favour of your position, the problem is, truth does not correspond to the notion that the holy texts of Christianity and Islam are deprived of hatred and mass murder.
It's baffling how you can judge my ignorance by one sentence I wrote about religion. One sentence which includes factually accurate information, to which you seem to admit is correct: again you replied to this saying, "yes, the violence is there."
You are getting your knicks in a twist because I said, again, the factually accurate statement that the Bible and Koran includes genocide, advocacy of religious persection, and so forth. It's mind boggling how you can get so emotional over this and immediately shut down, refusing any argument , calling me an ignorant fascist -- showing your closed mindedness.

And you beg the question, what am I ignorant about? Are you denying the Bible and Koran include passages which can be characterised as:

- Hatred
- Genocide
- Advocacy of Religious Persecution

If you admit these "Holy Books" include such passages, then how is me pointing it out "fascist"?

--------
Hatred, Genocide, Advocacy of Religious Persecution in the Koran and Bible:

First, the mere fact that not believing in God warrants eternal torture qualifies as utter hatred. Hence, the vast majority of religions are based on hatred. The koran even calls this "evil" itself:


And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad) after the right path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers' way, We shall keep him in the path he has chosen, and burn him in Hell – what an evil destination! (Quran 4:115)



They wish you would disbelieve as they disbelieved so you would be alike. So do not take from among them allies until they emigrate for the cause of Allah . But if they turn away, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them and take not from among them any ally or helper. (Surah 4:89)

And particularly this one is so poetic as you may call it:


Those who reject our Signs, We shall soon cast into the Fire: as often as their skins are roasted through, We shall change them for fresh skins, that they may taste the penalty: for Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. (Quran 4.56)

Islam advocates the death penalty or punishment for premarital sex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zina_(Arabic)), it advocates the principle of an eye for an eye (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qisas). All this well qualifies as utter and despicable intolerable hatred.

But apparently, I am the fascist for quoting the Koran.

As for the Bible:

Luke 19: 26-27:


‘I [Jesus] tell you that to everyone who has, more will be given, but as for the one who has nothing, even what they have will be taken away. 27 But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”

Judges 21:10-24:


"So they sent twelve thousand warriors to Jabesh-gilead with orders to kill everyone there, including women and children. "This is what you are to do," they said. "Completely destroy all the males and every woman who is not a virgin." Among the residents of Jabesh-gilead they found four hundred young virgins who had never slept with a man, and they brought them to the camp at Shiloh in the land of Canaan."



"The Israelite assembly sent a peace delegation to the little remnant of Benjamin who were living at the rock of Rimmon. Then the men of Benjamin returned to their homes, and the four hundred women of Jabesh-gilead who were spared were given to them as wives. But there were not enough women for all of them. The people felt sorry for Benjamin because the LORD had left this gap in the tribes of Israel. So the Israelite leaders asked, "How can we find wives for the few who remain, since all the women of the tribe of Benjamin are dead? There must be heirs for the survivors so that an entire tribe of Israel will not be lost forever. But we cannot give them our own daughters in marriage because we have sworn with a solemn oath that anyone who does this will fall under God's curse."


"Then they thought of the annual festival of the LORD held in Shiloh, between Lebonah and Bethel, along the east side of the road that goes from Bethel to Shechem. They told the men of Benjamin who still needed wives, "Go and hide in the vineyards. When the women of Shiloh come out for their dances, rush out from the vineyards, and each of you can take one of them home to be your wife! And when their fathers and brothers come to us in protest, we will tell them, 'Please be understanding. Let them have your daughters, for we didn't find enough wives for them when we destroyed Jabesh-gilead. And you are not guilty of breaking the vow since you did not give your daughters in marriage to them.'" So the men of Benjamin did as they were told. They kidnapped the women who took part in the celebration and carried them off to the land of their own inheritance. Then they rebuilt their towns and lived in them. So the assembly of Israel departed by tribes and families, and they returned to their own homes."

1 Samuel 15:3:


"This is what the Lord Almighty says ... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.' "

Instances of slavery, rape condoning, stoning your children for insubordination, and many more of such abject crimes are well documented in the Koran and Bible, and you can google it, although I'm afraid your closed mindedness does not allow you to this.

[Ele'ill]

Wow. So you haven't read the Koran. You probably look at stupid memes, and come post like you know what you're saying. I have read the Koran, and yes there is violence in it, but it's also very poetic. I couldn't imagine what it would be like if I was able to read it in Arabic. Religion is good. I myself do not believe in any religion, but if it makes you feel good and gives you a better life and makes you better person-more power to you. It's twats that don't understand religion that are extremist and ignorant people like you; that ruin religion for the people that use it to better human life. Have you read a book ever? People do shit in the name of marx/communism that are horrible acts to humans, but we still want a revolution.. hmmmm. -insert philoraptor meme here- Don't come here with your anti islam elitist rhetoric. You islam phobic fascist.

It's not just violence that is the problem it's the purpose of the violence and the oppression that is involved. Regarding leftist ideology and all the terrible dorks that have killed lots of people yeah I don't think many of us want to recreate history. I don't like it when people refuse to acknowledge the violent oppressive aspects of both politics and religion. If people want to take the better parts of religious texts from around the globe and make their own religion I'd still find it absurd and I'd think that it ignores science but I wouldn't want to be a thought-cop for them specifically. I think it's frightening that people believe in a god(s). The reason this differs from people 'believing in or criticizing or acting in political and social systems' is because those actually exist.

[Desy]

Thank you Mari3L. Ya. I think I see where you're going. And I agree the purpose for the violent acts make me ill, and I wonder how someone can take something with no evidence and take it to the extreme. But I still think you can't be phobic of any religion, because they have helped people, and made them and peopel around them better. You can't condem a whole philosophy on a few people, but that's me. I do more than google, "violent passages in the bible/koran", and pretend I know the bible and koran. #Tim Cornelis

The only thing I think I disagree with is your last sentence. Are you saying it's ok for people acting on political and social systems violently because they are real, and people who do it for religion are fools because you believe there is no god? Unless I totally mis understood that..

[Tim Cornelis]

and pretend I know the bible and koran. #Tim Cornelis

Please enlighten me what that passage from the Koran saying men in hell shall have their flesh burned, en then their flesh shall be replaced and burned again, means if not that men in hell shall have their flesh burned, en then their flesh shall be replaced and burned again. There is nothing to pretend, I'm quoting, there is no dispute that that is what is says, but apparently you know more about the Koran than the Koran and its Islamic scholars themselves. Again, you are so close minded you refuse any argument calling anyone a fascist for it, and then when I utterly refute your nonsense, you ignore it.

[Ele'ill]

But I still think you can't be phobic of any religion, because they have helped people, and made them and peopel around them better.

I think this is too broad. We'd have to look at what groups are helping what people regardless if it's political or religious in nature. They might help a group and commit genocidal acts against another. A personal problem I have with this is that religion didn't necessarily help people because the part of 'religion' that helped was actually the very non-religious and human part that we see existing without religion- god isn't here because it doesn't exit, it is the irrational part of an otherwise good idea.






You can't condem a whole philosophy on a few people, but that's me. I do more than google, "violent passages in the bible/koran", and pretend I know the bible and koran. #Tim CornelisI think the idea or philosophy of religion is fair game.


The only thing I think I disagree with is your last sentence. Are you saying it's ok for people acting on political and social systems violently because they are real, and people who do it for religion are fools because you believe there is no god? Unless I totally mis understood that..Yeah that is what I'm saying, involving a lot of critical thinking on specific examples that come up of course, something that religious action tends to circumvent.

[Bostana]

Yes i hate relgion But I think it's fucking idiotic to go on ranting about how much you hate it and then say one religion is more oppressive than the other. Look at the history of Islam and Christianity. THEY'RE THE SAME GOD DAMN THING!!! of course some christian sects are more reformed than Islam. But it's stupid to look at pictures on a fucking conspiracy site posted up by a fucking racist, homophobic, christian and say "Wow, this proves Islam is the worst."

And stop with the whole 9/11 shit. (Which was included in one of the pictures) despite popular belief they didn't attack the World trade center because of religion, but because america and other imperialist NATO countries will do the same thing and kill Arab civilians too! I'm not saying that justifies anything but still.

[Tim Cornelis]

Yes i hate relgion But I think it's fucking idiotic to go on ranting about how much you hate it and then say one religion is more oppressive than the other.

In terms of Holy Texts, it's probably impossible to determine which is worst, both approve of the death penalty for various things, patriarchy, slavery, and so forth. However, would you say that Buddhism is as worse than Islam or Christianity? Admittedly, I don't know much of Buddhism and presumably it has nasty sides as well, but the image I have is that of a quite peaceful and tolerant religion.

[Akshay!]

I've personally lived in a majority-Muslim country and I think Muslims are some of the nicest people in the world. I've also lived in the US, and I think Americans are some of stupidest people in the world.

"Religion" is just like a hammer. You can use it to build something, you can use it to break someone's skull. It's not some kind of ideology that every member of the group believes in the exact same way. There's a huge difference between, for example, Salafists and Sufis.

Criticizing aspects of a religion is understandable (only if you actually know something about the religion) but criticizing 1.6 billion Muslims because some of them are responding to US Imperialism is stupid.

As communists, it's our responsibility to stand with the oppressed people - no matter what race, nation, religion they might be associated with. In recent years, Muslims have been the worst victims of Imperialism, so we should support them instead of falling for Hitchens-like anti-theism. If tomorrow Buddhists are more oppressed then the same rule will apply to them. In fact, I would even argue that if Buddhists had all the oil/other resources then we'd be having a discussion about whether or not Buddhism is evil - which would be equally stupid.

[Bostana]

In terms of Holy Texts, it's probably impossible to determine which is worst, both approve of the death penalty for various things, patriarchy, slavery, and so forth. However, would you say that Buddhism is as worse than Islam or Christianity? Admittedly, I don't know much of Buddhism and presumably it has nasty sides as well, but the image I have is that of a quite peaceful and tolerant religion.

You're right.

I was more focused on Islam on Christianity I wasn't really thinking on religion from the far east.

[Sidagma]

1) Qu'ran is extremely contextually specific. You can't take passages out of context and assume they apply to every situation. It's important to study Qu'ran and understand the meanings behind the passages, and this is highly encouraged within Islam. In fact, the first passage revealed to the Prophet was an Arabic word that can mean either "read" or "recite". Because a lot of Muslims can't read, and the Prophet remained illiterate until he died, information was transmitted back then through recitations, which is what Qu'ran is. It was written down later, because books are a good way to spread information.

The second, for the record, is disputed; it's either one about teaching what you know to others, or an order to prayer which was relaxed later in the Prophet's life. Either way, the two of these were the second and third ayat revealed.

Learning and teaching are important in Islam, and many more people know this about Islam than they do, say, Marxism.

In fact, that's a good comparison. You can't judge an ideology by the actions of its adherents. If you do, Marxism has a lot to answer for. You are committing the same fallacy by projecting this onto Islam.

2) The idea of separating religion from the rest of a person's lifestyle or ideology is one that comes out of Enlightenment-era Europe, and doesn't have much currency even as far East as Greece. Projecting that conception of religion as separate onto a culture that does not have it is colonialist in nature. Islam is described by its adherents as an ideology, a school of law, a system of knowledge and education. It is more than just a religion which can be easily removed from the other aspects of one's lifestyle.

3) Many things that the west now considers backwards about Islam were projected onto it by Western colonial powers, whose incursions into Muslim lands date back to the Crusades and are well-documented. For a more modern example, I could point to the constitution of Iraq left in place after the US invasion, which makes it completely legal to kill people as long as it's "for an honorable cause", or to the monarchy of Saudi Arabia, which is entirely US-funded, or to the US's support of militant groups like the Taliban in order to lessen Soviet influence in south Asia and simultaneous destruction of the Muslim left. Actions that, I remind you, were taken by a secular state.

4) There are active Muslim movements, both in the west and in predominantly Muslim countries, that will be able to educate you thoroughly in provisions in the Qu'ran which call unconditionally for equality between men and women. Eliminating the damage that Western colonialism has done to Muslim cultures is a process of decolonization, not unlike the anti-Rape movement in India or movements among Native Americans to eliminate problems such as alcoholism and domestic violence in their own cultures. Nobody says that alcoholism is a provision of Native American cultures, which must be addressed by white activists after a fifteen minute briefing and no other context, because that would be absurd given the historical context and immediately recognized, among the Left at least, God willing, as an act in perfect historical continuity with previous acts taken by white people as regards these cultures. The hypocrisy in this thread is staggering.

5) I wonder sincerely if the people in this thread who are lamenting the condition of Muslim women will pay any attention to the atrocities against women of color in their own. The discrimination forum does not necessarily seem replete with topics on the subject matter. I wonder where the Left is, in addressing or understanding these issues? Could someone point me to a western Marxist website or organization that prioritizes the condition of women of color in their countries?

[Raúl Duke]

Admittedly, I don't know much of Buddhism and presumably it has nasty sides as well, but the image I have is that of a quite peaceful and tolerant religion.

While perhaps the Buddhist dogma, texts, etc have less positive references to violence, slavery, rape, et.al...

In Burma, the Buddhist majority are doing similar violent acts to the Rohingjya Muslim minority like that of the example of the dead Muslim children killed by Lebanese Christian militias.

Religions tend to have a similar praxis, they surely do not tolerate "competition"

[Fionnagáin]

Religions tend to have a similar praxis, they surely do not tolerate "competition"
Only if they're constructed as "religions", that is, as monolithic and exclusive systems, a phenomenon which is largely unique to certain traditions originating in South-Western Eurasia. In most places, most of the time, the tendency is towards syncretism, including Abrahamic faiths when taken up by indigenous peoples beyond the control of established authorities (Islam in South-East Asia, Christianity in Africa and the Americas, etc.).

[homegrown terror]

And stop with the whole 9/11 shit. (Which was included in one of the pictures) despite popular belief they didn't attack the World trade center because of religion, but because america and other imperialist NATO countries will do the same thing and kill Arab civilians too! I'm not saying that justifies anything but still.

i've thought this too for a long time. if they were really interested in a religious crusade, they would have attacked targets of religious importance (such as churches, cathedrals etc) but instead they attacked economic and military targets (the WTC and the pentagon) which to me says they cared a lot more about fighting american imperialism than american "infidelity."

[Bostana]

In Burma, the Buddhist majority are doing similar violent acts to the Rohingjya Muslim minority like that of the example of the dead Muslim children killed by Lebanese Christian militias.

Don't let Americans hear you say that. At first they'll deny it and then they'll say that the Muslims "deserve it"
:glare:

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Only if they're constructed as "religions", that is, as monolithic and exclusive systems, a phenomenon which is largely unique to certain traditions originating in South-Western Eurasia. In most places, most of the time, the tendency is towards syncretism, including Abrahamic faiths when taken up by indigenous peoples beyond the control of established authorities (Islam in South-East Asia, Christianity in Africa and the Americas, etc.).

However, the thing that does seem common to religions across all cultures is the notion of an special class of people with exclusive or privileged access to the gods/spirit world/next life/whatever.

I think that kind of set-up is hilariously open to abuse by those seeking to enrich themselves at the expense of others, and while doing so be able to cloak themselves in the righteousness and authority that comes with "spiritual" callings.

It's a godsend (ha!) for con-men across the world and throughout the ages.

[Bostana]

i've thought this too for a long time. if they were really interested in a religious crusade, they would have attacked targets of religious importance (such as churches, cathedrals etc) but instead they attacked economic and military targets (the WTC and the pentagon) which to me says they cared a lot more about fighting american imperialism than american "infidelity."

Exactly. I'll admit some of it is influenced by religion, but the majority of it was them just tired having the same thing happen to them by the hands of the U.S. in their own homes.

[Comrade Nasser]

Oh yea god damn sand monkeys.

Look face it islam is one of the most aggressive and crazy religions we know. I'm not defending any other religions,i was just trying to make an point,what religion makes out of people.
So stop being a bunch of smart asses and let's focus on the theme for once,will we ever see a world without religion,why does religion have such an impact on us,....Just stop with this flame wars.

"damn sand monkeys"

http://pigroll.com/img/that_really_rustled_my_jimmies.jpg

[Yuppie Grinder]

Fuck militant atheist fuckboys.
Fuck Islamophobia.

[homegrown terror]

i guess we'd all be better off being "non-ethnically-motivated-anti-pan-abrahamists" but that's quite a mouthful. i've got nothing at all against anyone for being of semitic or arabic descent, but the religions they've spawned are truly some of the utterly worst shite the world has ever or will ever see.

[Comrade Nasser]

i guess we'd all be better off being "non-ethnically-motivated-anti-pan-abrahamists" but that's quite a mouthful. i've got nothing at all against anyone for being of semitic or arabic descent, but the religions they've spawned are truly some of the utterly worst shite the world has ever or will ever see.

I'm Arab. I was born Christian. Do you hate me?

[Rafiq]

In terms of Holy Texts, it's probably impossible to determine which is worst, both approve of the death penalty for various things, patriarchy, slavery, and so forth. However, would you say that Buddhism is as worse than Islam or Christianity? Admittedly, I don't know much of Buddhism and presumably it has nasty sides as well, but the image I have is that of a quite peaceful and tolerant religion.

Buddhism is much worse. Christianity represents a stage in thought for the human species which was overwhelmingly revolutionary. I am not talking about communal life or whatever. In it's early days, Roman pagans accused Christians of atheism, because Christianity carries the necessary seeds to sustain atheism.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Rafiq]

I think it's hilariously pathetic how people argue books like the koran are violent, backward and so on as if it is a matter of debate. Of course these books are reactionary in nature, why is this being debated as if it means anything? When it comes to religions you cannot judge their content in such a superficial way. Of course there is this horrible talk amd so on, but the real substance does not reside with the magnitude of how morally repulsive it appears, but with the fundamental logic from which this nastyness is conveyed. Buddhists texts can mention peace and prosperity but in such a way where it is a horribly repressive, reactionary logic. The problem with Islam is it's class nature, it was and remains a religion of the ruling classes. I am not sickened by talks of violence in the koran, but these small, passages of "kindness", this is what I am sickened by. This disgusting, repulsive benevolence toward slaves, and women, etc. It is perfectly anti-radical. This underlying regulation of, for example, how slaves are treated does better to sustain slavery than these spontaneous acts of brutality that it seems to oppose.

Sent from my SPH-D710 using Tapatalk 2

[Zostrianos]

In Burma, the Buddhist majority are doing similar violent acts to the Rohingjya Muslim minority like that of the example of the dead Muslim children killed by Lebanese Christian militias.
Religions tend to have a similar praxis, they surely do not tolerate "competition"

There is violence in the name of Buddhism nowadays in Burma and Sri Lanka, but this is tied in with ethnic and nationalistic elements that have nothing to do with Buddhism, which promotes peace and tolerance in its original form. Also, a lot (if not most) of the violence in India by Hindu nationalists against Christians and Muslims is usually not motivated by anything in Hinduism (which is a tolerant religion), but either by nationalistic (Indian=Hindu) reasons, or often as a reaction to the intolerance and misdeeds that Christians and Islamists have done, especially Christian missionaries who have spread like a plague throughout the region, and deliberately provoke religious strife, scamming the poor into converting, and often publicly insulting Hinduism. This of course provokes a reaction, and unfortunately most of the time it's innocent Christians who pay the price.
And this is why you rarely, if ever, hear of Hindu nationalists targeting Jains, Sikhs, Jews, Buddhists or Zoroastrians.

Now this is interesting because violence done in the name of Islam or Christianity is usually (if not always) motivated by pure intolerance for other religions. this is the key, crucial difference. An Islamist or Christian fundamentalist will attack you, try to convert you or kill you simply because you're wrong and he's right, so either you convert or die.

[Bostana]

For those arguing which religion is the worst......

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=H.4717386930128102&pid=1.7

....This one is still out there

[Comrade Nasser]

Lebanese Christian Militias were BRUTAL. So were the Muslim militias. At points in the civil war it got so crazy different christian militias would attack Christians, Muslims attacking other muslims, like hezbollah fighting sunni muslim militias. Goes to show ANYONE, any race, or religion could be a evil person.

[Klaatu]

In my own opinion, I think this had originated from Western imperialism. That is, the political oppression of countries (that happen to be Islamic) has resulted in a call-to-arms in those countries, and the most efficient way for them to oppose this imperialism is for them to unite against the Western tyranny is under the banner of religion.

So then what we in the (ignorant) West see as so-called "radical Islam" is really just a political rallying cry to keep out Western influence/decadence.

[Raúl Duke]

There is violence in the name of Buddhism nowadays in Burma and Sri Lanka, but this is tied in with ethnic and nationalistic elements that have nothing to do with Buddhism, which promotes peace and tolerance in its original formI'm aware of this, after all I mentioned:


While perhaps the Buddhist dogma, texts, etc have less positive references to violence, slavery, rape, et.al...Nevertheless, members of that religion have conducted violent acts towards members of other religions. It may be mostly the case that the violence is due to ethnic or historical/cultural lines but my point was that even Buddhists and so on can engage in sectarian violence which may include a religious aspect.

After all, in its original form, Islamic doctrine/text allegedly has nothing against Christians and Jews (since they seem them belonging within their theology to some extent, in Iran they're considered "people of the book" or some such) yet Muslims have engaged in violent acts against these groups before.

I think what I'm trying to get at was that all religion have the potential towards violent intolerance and this is not a factor that we should single out on Islam (which is what the OP is doing) much less a factor to justify harboring xenophobic ill-will towards Muslims people in a generalistic prejudiced way.

Now I don't mean we should all "play nice" to Islam or religions in general, but when it comes to religious extremism I think we need to focus more on domestic religious extremism; for example particularly in the US the Christian Right is much more harmful to society than Muslims and Islam which is mostly practiced in that country by immigrants who are discriminated against by xenophobic people some who follow the OP's logic in justifying their prejudice. If I were living in the Middle East, I would be justified in being more concerned about extremist Islamism and be in a better position of actually perhaps doing something about it but I'm living in the US and when it comes to religious extremism it's the Christian Right we should be worried about.

[Devrim]

It's a picture of the Turkish earthquake? Are you kidding me?

How heartbreaking that there are earthquakes in Muslim countries. Those poor women. I can't imagine what it must be like to live in those conditions. Damn you RELIGION!!11!

My mistake. I apologise. It doesn't mean that there wasn't a massacre of Palestinian civilians in Beirut in 1982, and I am sure if you search for it online you can find lots of graphic images of the aftermath yourself.


There is violence in the name of Buddhism nowadays in Burma and Sri Lanka, but this is tied in with ethnic and nationalistic elements that have nothing to do with Buddhism,

Do you think that violence perpetrated by Muslisms has nothing to do with ethnic and nationalistic elements, or is it all just 'mad Muslims'?

Devrim

[Devrim]

After all, in its original form, Islamic doctrine/text allegedly has nothing against Christians and Jews (since they seem them belonging within their theology to some extent, in Iran they're considered "people of the book" or some such) yet Muslims have engaged in violent acts against these groups before.

Actually, all Muslims believe this.

Devrim

[homegrown terror]

I'm Arab. I was born Christian. Do you hate me?

not at all. are you still a christian? if so are you one of "those" christians? if not then you and i have no quarrel.

[Luís Henrique]

There is violence in the name of Buddhism nowadays in Burma and Sri Lanka, but this is tied in with ethnic and nationalistic elements that have nothing to do with Buddhism, which promotes peace and tolerance in its original form. Also, a lot (if not most) of the violence in India by Hindu nationalists against Christians and Muslims is usually not motivated by anything in Hinduism (which is a tolerant religion), but either by nationalistic (Indian=Hindu) reasons, or often as a reaction to the intolerance and misdeeds that Christians and Islamists have done, especially Christian missionaries who have spread like a plague throughout the region, and deliberately provoke religious strife, scamming the poor into converting, and often publicly insulting Hinduism. This of course provokes a reaction, and unfortunately most of the time it's innocent Christians who pay the price.
And this is why you rarely, if ever, hear of Hindu nationalists targeting Jains, Sikhs, Jews, Buddhists or Zoroastrians.

Now this is interesting because violence done in the name of Islam or Christianity is usually (if not always) motivated by pure intolerance for other religions. this is the key, crucial difference. An Islamist or Christian fundamentalist will attack you, try to convert you or kill you simply because you're wrong and he's right, so either you convert or die.

Well, I will dare say that violence done in the name of Islam or Christianity is as much motivated by economic, ethnic, classist, political, national, etc., considerations as the violence perpetrated in the name of any other religion or "grand narrative" (and that religions and other "grand narratives" are merely instrumental in giving people a way to rationalise violence).

The difference is in the eye of the beholders: when we see Irish Catholics killing Irish Protestants, and conversely, we do not for one instant believe this has to do with recognising the Pope or with the miracle of transubstantiation. After all, Irishmen are civilised Whites and Europeans, and civilised Whites and Europeans do not kill each others because of silly superstitions like those, so there must be underlying national, economic, classist, political, causes for the mutual slaughter. But of course most Muslims are "non-White" (even when they are obviously white as the Tsarnaev brothers) and non-European barbarians - the kind of people we would expect to kill each others out of blind superstition. And so we stop short from wondering about the underlying economic, ethnic, political, or classist causes of the violence they perpetrate. We just assume it is pretty natural that such untermenschen would kill each others out of purely religious or superstitious causes (and even when it is obvious that there is an ethnic or national cause that cannot be ignored, we relabel it "tribal" or "clanic", as those words more easily fit "primitive people").

Luís Henrique

[Ocean Seal]

Believing that religion is evil is inherent an unfounded construct which is anti-intellectual in many of the same respects as religion.

[Desy]

Please enlighten me what that passage from the Koran saying men in hell shall have their flesh burned, en then their flesh shall be replaced and burned again, means if not that men in hell shall have their flesh burned, en then their flesh shall be replaced and burned again. There is nothing to pretend, I'm quoting, there is no dispute that that is what is says, but apparently you know more about the Koran than the Koran and its Islamic scholars themselves. Again, you are so close minded you refuse any argument calling anyone a fascist for it, and then when I utterly refute your nonsense, you ignore it.

Did I say I know more than Koran scholars? Also, you have no idea what the Koram scholars have to say, so go google that now and tell me how well educated you are in religion and religion theory. Do you ever step back in your shit and vommit when you're typing and go, ' I make no sense. Why do I have to google everything?'

Do me a favor and google peace and love passages in the bible and koran as well. And post them. Instead of just putting a couple that helps you flame on a religion. Classic fascist squawking.

[ckaihatsu]

Believing that religion is evil is inherent an unfounded construct which is anti-intellectual in many of the same respects as religion.


I wouldn't summarily say that "religion is evil", though I *would* say that it's inherently anti-intellectual (since it relies on authority for the interpretation-of-divinity, or wisdom.)

Monotheistic religions have their own evolutionary histories -- *all* religions develop for historical-material reasons, regardless of the era in history.

We shouldn't hesitate to assert that religion is thoroughly anachronistic in modern times since we have science and mass (commercial) culture to supplant the entire religious paradigm.





By the beginning of the 1st century AD there were large Jewish populations in virtually every Roman city, ‘ranging from 10 to 15 percent of the total population of a city’.115 They made up a high proportion of the population of Alexandria, so that the Greek city in Egypt was also very much a Jewish city. They also had a noticeable enough presence in Rome for Julius Caesar to have sought their favour.

The Jews of this diaspora maintained an identity as a separate community through their religious belief in a single invisible god, their dietary rules and their observance of a day of rest. These customs stopped them simply melting into the populations around them. They were also expected to pay regular amounts for the upkeep of Jerusalem—which accounted for much of its wealth—and to visit the city when they could for the Passover festival. The rules about diet and the sabbath would have been slightly onerous, in the sense of making it more difficult to socialise and work with the wider non-Jewish population. But their communities survived, focused on their synagogue meeting places—probably for similar reasons that immigrant communities are focused on churches or mosques. The ties of a religion which bound a group together not only in prayer but also in diet and behaviour would have been a benefit to people seeking to stay afloat in the atomised world of the city, where life even for the prosperous trader or artisan was precarious and for the groups below them desperate.




It was not just the sense of community that attracted them. The central religious idea of Judaism, monotheism—the belief in the one invisible god—fitted the situation of the urban dwellers. The pagan religions in which there were many gods, each associated with a particular locality or force of nature, made sense to the country dweller for whom the local village or clan was the centre of social existence. But the urban traders, artisans and beggars had repeated contact with a very large number of people from different localities and in different occupations. An anonymous, all-embracing deity could seem to provide support and protection in such multiple encounters. That is why there were trends towards monotheism in all the great civilisations of antiquity—the rise of Buddhism in India and China, and the worship of a single ‘good’ god (involved in an eternal battle with evil) in Persia.117 Even Roman Paganism tended to worship a sun-god more powerful than the others. Furthermore, in its Pharisaical form, Judaism combined monotheism with the promise to its adherents that however hard their suffering in this life, they had something to look forward to in the next.

Such was the popularity of Judaism that it bound together millions of believers in all the trading centres of the Roman Empire, providing a network of contacts and communication stretching across thousands of miles.118




Harman, _People's History of the World_, pp. 90-92

[cynicles]

There is violence in the name of Buddhism nowadays in Burma and Sri Lanka, but this is tied in with ethnic and nationalistic elements that have nothing to do with Buddhism, which promotes peace and tolerance in its original form. Also, a lot (if not most) of the violence in India by Hindu nationalists against Christians and Muslims is usually not motivated by anything in Hinduism (which is a tolerant religion), but either by nationalistic (Indian=Hindu) reasons, or often as a reaction to the intolerance and misdeeds that Christians and Islamists have done, especially Christian missionaries who have spread like a plague throughout the region, and deliberately provoke religious strife, scamming the poor into converting, and often publicly insulting Hinduism. This of course provokes a reaction, and unfortunately most of the time it's innocent Christians who pay the price.
And this is why you rarely, if ever, hear of Hindu nationalists targeting Jains, Sikhs, Jews, Buddhists or Zoroastrians.

Now this is interesting because violence done in the name of Islam or Christianity is usually (if not always) motivated by pure intolerance for other religions. this is the key, crucial difference. An Islamist or Christian fundamentalist will attack you, try to convert you or kill you simply because you're wrong and he's right, so either you convert or die.

So that pogrom against Sikhs after Indira Gandhis assassinations was reall just a bunch of Hindus trying to gives the Sikhs hugs and friendship while they held up in their temple?

[Orange Juche]

There is no need to present Islam as something more (or less) evil than the other abrahamic religions. Atrocities happened in the name of all of those.

This is where I call bullshit on leftist analysis of religion. Islam is, easily, worse and more dangerous than any religion of any notable size presently existing.

For example, NYC has "The Book of Mormon" on broadway - if we had "The Book of Judaism" or "The Book of Jesus/the pope/etc" there very well could be protests, even a bit of outrage. I can guarantee, though, that if there was "The Book of Islam" people would be killed, and it would have nothing to do with American foreign policy.

The Onion had a political cartoon where a bunch of religious figures... Jesus, Moses, Ganesha, Buddha... were all having an orgy, really sexual stuff, the title was something along the lines of "Nobody is going to get killed because of this picture" (If you look on the Onion, I'm sure you could find it). No religion, other than Islam, would a picture of the prophet/leader/God/etc with a bomb hat result in people dying.

No other religion has the death penalty for apostasy, and enforces such a thing on such a grand scale.

I'm not saying we should hunt muslims, or muslim people are inherently lower than anyone else. But if you want to judge religions in and of themselves, and be honest about it, no religion has anything on Islam.

[cynicles]

This is where I call bullshit on leftist analysis of religion. Islam is, easily, worse and more dangerous than any religion of any notable size presently existing.

For example, NYC has "The Book of Mormon" on broadway - if we had "The Book of Judaism" or "The Book of Jesus/the pope/etc" there very well could be protests, even a bit of outrage. I can guarantee, though, that if there was "The Book of Islam" people would be killed, and it would have nothing to do with American foreign policy.

The Onion had a political cartoon where a bunch of religious figures... Jesus, Moses, Ganesha, Buddha... were all having an orgy, really sexual stuff, the title was something along the lines of "Nobody is going to get killed because of this picture" (If you look on the Onion, I'm sure you could find it). No religion, other than Islam, would a picture of the prophet/leader/God/etc with a bomb hat result in people dying.

No other religion has the death penalty for apostasy, and enforces such a thing on such a grand scale.

I'm not saying we should hunt muslims, or muslim people are inherently lower than anyone else. But if you want to judge religions in and of themselves, and be honest about it, no religion has anything on Islam.

That analysis sounds pretty solid. There are Muslims who would kill you if you showed a picture of the prophet therefore Islam is worse. But just for the sake of inquisitiveness how do you account for members of the golden dawn and nuns and clergy beating lgbt people in greece for making a place about a gay Jesus?

[Orange Juche]

That analysis sounds pretty solid. There are Muslims who would kill you if you showed a picture of the prophet therefore Islam is worse. But just for the sake of inquisitiveness how do you account for members of the golden dawn and nuns and clergy beating lgbt people in greece for making a place about a gay Jesus?

That's an oversimplification of what I asserted.

And I didn't say others don't do crazy stuff, it's just that - on the whole - Islam is the reigning champion of crazy. Sure that's a single example of something like that - but no other religion is responsible for the levels of execution going on today, that is, the times in which we live for homosexuality as Islam - and there's no denying that. Not to mention the swording off of genetalia. That just isn't happening in Christianity and Judaism, at least, not on some level beyond specific very out of the ordinary examples.

It appears to me that you're buying into this left false equivocation for political correctness that comes with Islam.

[BTMFPHumanStrike]

rationality and progress are just blood stained as religion is.

[cynicles]

That's an oversimplification of what I asserted.

And I didn't say others don't do crazy stuff, it's just that - on the whole - Islam is the reigning champion of crazy. Sure that's a single example of something like that - but no other religion is responsible for the levels of execution going on today, that is, the times in which we live for homosexuality as Islam - and there's no denying that. Not to mention the swording off of genetalia. That just isn't happening in Christianity and Judaism, at least, not on some level beyond specific very out of the ordinary examples.

It appears to me that you're buying into this left false equivocation for political correctness that comes with Islam.

How convenient that you've isolated to debate to just now avoiding having to deal with more complex questions of history, coonialism and politics. You essentialist argument does tend to fall to pieces when one stops analyzing Islam in a complete ahistorical vacuum.

I have no idea what you last statement about false equivocation and political correctness even means but I assume your throwing out the typical thought terminating cliche the rightwing uses and abuses thoroughly.

[Luís Henrique]

This is where I call bullshit on leftist analysis of religion. Islam is, easily, worse and more dangerous than any religion of any notable size presently existing.

Presently, nowadays, at this moment...?

Yes, no doubt.

Take out the adverb, and no.


I can guarantee, though, that if there was "The Book of Islam" people would be killed, and it would have nothing to do with American foreign policy.

Directly, immediately, no. But a huge part of what, historically, made of Islam the "worst and more dangerous" religion at this moment, was American (and British, and French; we should not forget the hideous influence of those colonial powers just because it is older) foreign policy.

If we haven't had Mossadegh, Sabra and Shatila, Deir Yassin, Balfour declaration, unflinching support for the Kuwaiti and Saudi monarchies, gosh, direct support for the Afghan rebels, etc., etc., and a long list of etc., I can assure you that NYC could stage "The Book of Islam" on Broadway all the time it wished, with no more consequences than letters to the newspapers and some small street demonstrations.


No other religion has the death penalty for apostasy, and enforces such a thing on such a grand scale.

Christianism used to have it, too, and for heresy to booth.

It was us, secular people, who put an end to that, and it did cost a few quite violent revolutions to uproot the evil, too. So we should never concede that Christianism has any inherent quality that makes it "superior" to, or less dangerous than, Islam.

We tamed the beast, that's all.

Luís Henrique

[Nakidana]

But if you want to judge religions in and of themselves

There's your problem right there. No recognition that the current manifestations of Islam has a material basis, just crude "Islam does this, Christianity does that" hogwash. And this Daily Mail bullshit...:


It appears to me that you're buying into this left false equivocation for political correctness that comes with Islam.

...just sent my Islamophobia alarms into overdrive.

The fact remains that the followers of Islam are not some homogenous mass. Muslims living in Western countries are different from Muslims living in Saudi Arabia, and even within countries such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan you have viewpoints ranging from liberal to conservative, all of whom would call themselves Muslim. The only way this can be explained is on a material basis. People have different backgrounds and thus twist Islam to fit whatever interests they might have.

The real crazy is the fact that you're trying to lump them all together in some absurd attempt to give Islam the "worst religion" stamp. I'm getting strange Richard Dawkins vibes here, ie all that ridiculous nonsense about "Islam being the biggest force for evil today". :rolleyes:

[hashem]

Religion is good. I myself do not believe in any religion

come talk to us when and if you managed to convince your self to follow a religion!

[Desy]

come talk to us when and if you managed to convince your self to follow a religion!

Is this a new breed of ignorance? Or elitism? How about you stay on topic with the discussion and let my own spiritual path have nothing to do with your narrow minded thoughts. My religion, or lack of one, doesn't make your thoughts any better or worse than mine. Your pompous one liner makes me not care what ever you have to say on this discussion. For one liners - Go fuck yourself! Come back with a legitimate opinion or question about what I say.

[GerrardWinstanley]

This is where I call bullshit on leftist analysis of religion. Islam is, easily, worse and more dangerous than any religion of any notable size presently existing.

For example, NYC has "The Book of Mormon" on broadway - if we had "The Book of Judaism" or "The Book of Jesus/the pope/etc" there very well could be protests, even a bit of outrage. I can guarantee, though, that if there was "The Book of Islam" people would be killed, and it would have nothing to do with American foreign policy.

The Onion had a political cartoon where a bunch of religious figures... Jesus, Moses, Ganesha, Buddha... were all having an orgy, really sexual stuff, the title was something along the lines of "Nobody is going to get killed because of this picture" (If you look on the Onion, I'm sure you could find it). No religion, other than Islam, would a picture of the prophet/leader/God/etc with a bomb hat result in people dying.

No other religion has the death penalty for apostasy, and enforces such a thing on such a grand scale.

I'm not saying we should hunt muslims, or muslim people are inherently lower than anyone else. But if you want to judge religions in and of themselves, and be honest about it, no religion has anything on Islam.That's all well and good, but nobody got killed for this either (https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/thumb/5/55/Drawmohammededf4.jpg/692px-Drawmohammededf4.jpg) (warning: NSFW) or this (https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/3/32/Momoandthepig.jpg).

Since when is an atheist pre-occupied which religion is better than the other anyway? I could just as easily point to the fact that at the time when Giordano Bruno was being burned at the stake for "holding opinions contrary to the Catholic faith" (including believing that the sun was one of many stars), Mughal Emperor Akbar practiced "universal peace".

[Nicolas_Cage]

I think we can all agree on one thing: Richard Dawkins is a fucking douchebag.

[Akshay!]

I think we can all agree on one thing: Richard Dawkins is a fucking douchebag.

So are Hitchens, Harris, and the other "New Atheists". These so called "New Atheists" are certainly Much more religious than the most crazy Islamist I've seen.

[Zostrianos]

I think we can all agree on one thing: Richard Dawkins is a fucking douchebag.

I agree to a certain extent, but I think his speech on the pope was absolutely brilliant:
BBHqGHxBJRs

[Klaatu]

Religion isn't even really a thing. It's just an awkward way Europeans developed of lumping together certain kinds of beliefs, practices and institutions that they associated with each other. Attributing any meaningful characteristics one way or the other is basically pretty silly.
That's about the best explanation of this phenomenon called 'religion' I have heard yet. ;)

[Bostana]

I agree to a certain extent, but I think his speech on the pope was absolutely brilliant:


Anybody can criticize the church now-a-days. It's so damn easy because of the sex abuse scandals. The sad part about it is, no mater who I see criticizing the catholic church for the sex abuse scandals, whether it is protestants, atheists, Muslims, etc. They only use it for personal gain of their group. They basically say "look at the evil the catholic church did, this proves our church or group is right and just!" No one gives a damn about the sex abuse victims, only the criticizing of the church.

[ckaihatsu]

From another thread:





We could call Marxism a 'societal paradigm', and also call religious thought a 'societal paradigm' -- the difference is that religion has already been historically manifested, whereas Marxism has not.

It's easy to see why people would accuse Marxism of being a religion, because it's paradigmatic, but it *is* scientific in its method and can also develop its repertoire by analyzing continuously unfolding world events.

Additionally, Marxism is *integrative* and *comprehensive*, and cuts against the prevailing *reductionistic* approach contained in most scientific perspectives.