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View Full Version : Eclectics or Dialectics? Unpacking PSL's Defense of Racist, Collaborationist Tyranny



Binh
22nd April 2013, 22:13
Originally published by The North Star. (http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=8293)

(http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=8293)

http://www.thenorthstar.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/promo.jpg


Socialists and War: Two Opposing Trends published by Party for Socialism and Liberation (PSL) is as thin politically as it page-wise. Clocking in at 46 pages, most of the book consists of freely available published material: a reprint (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/justifying-imperialist-interventionint.html) from PSL's newspaper, a Dissident Voice interview (http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/08/libya-and-the-western-left-2/) with Brian Becker who is the national director of PSL’s front group ANSWER Coalition, and a historical document, the Basel Manifesto (http://www.marxists.org/history/international/social-democracy/1912/basel-manifesto.htm). The only original work is Becker's essay, “Socialists and War: Two Opposing Trends,” which claims that socialist debates over imperialist intervention into the Arab Spring are the modern analog to the split (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jan/x02.htm) within the socialist movement over World War One with myself as Plekhanov (http://www.marxists.org/glossary/people/p/l.htm#plekhanov) and PSL as – who else? – the Bolsheviks. (Whether Becker gets to play Lenin and Mazda Majidi Trotsky or vice versa in their 1914-1917 reenactment is unclear.)


The book is a reminder that seven dollars doesn't buy much of anything these days.


Majidi's article, “When Justifying Imperialist Intervention 'Goes Wrong' (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/justifying-imperialist-interventionint.html)” is a Revleft (http://www.revleft.com/)-style response to my essay, “Libya and Syria: When Anti-Imperialism Goes Wrong (http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=1097).” Majidi's strawmen speak for themselves and need not be enumerated here. However, his underlying method is of interest. He begins by asserting that, “All demonstrations and opposition movements [are] not progressive.” Undoubtedly this is true, and Majidi cites the Nazis and the Tea Party as examples. So far, so good. He then adds what he calls “color revolutions” to this list:
“Most color revolutions occurred in the former Soviet Republics, such as Georgia's Rose Revolution, Ukraine's Orange Revolution and Kyrgyzstan's Tulip Revolution. But there have also been (successful or attempted) color revolutions in other countries, such as Lebanon's Cedar Revolution in 2005 and Iran's Green Revolution in 2009.”
What is a “color revolution” according to Majidi?
“Color revolutions usually include the formation of coherent and unified pro-imperialist political forces, which draw upon public discontent with economic distress, corruption and political coercion. They involve several operations, including the creation of division and disunity in the military and an intense propaganda campaign. ... Elements who participate in such street protests are often a small part of the population and do not represent the sentiments of the majority of the people, much less the interests of the working class. In fact, many participants in the protests may not support the agenda of the right-wing leadership and its imperialist sponsors. Still, the imperialist propaganda campaign utilizes the protests, however large or small, to promote regime change and the ascension of a client state. The imperialists are not fools to do so; this is precisely what such 'democratic' movements produce absent an alternative working-class and anti-imperialist opposition.”
This is a description of associated features, not a rigorous definition.
Many of these features were present in the Egyptian revolution. The “coherent and unified pro-imperialist political force” known as the Muslim Brotherhood rode to power drawing “upon public discontent with economic distress, corruption and political coercion.” Their regime enjoys a much larger and firmer popular base than Mubarak's decrepit dictatorship and in that narrow sense U.S. imperialism was strengthened rather than weakened by the January 25, 2011 revolution.


Does PSL consider the Egyptian case to be a “color revolution”? Of course not (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/egypt-a-continuous-process.html). Thus, the only consistency to PSL’s method is its inconsistency. Eclecticism is inevitable because PSL continually substitutes description for definition.


The next step in Majidi's counter-argument is to ask, “What is the political character of the Syrian and Libyan rebels?” Earlier in the article, he poses questions of fundamental importance for approaching this issue:
“In his entire article, Binh conveniently assumes the very thing that needs to be proven—that the Libyan rebels and the Syrian opposition are revolutionary. This false premise, once accepted, leads to all sorts of false conclusions. What is the political character of the NTC-led rebels in Libya? What qualified them as revolutionaries? How does Binh determine that the Syrian opposition is revolutionary and the government counter-revolutionary? When analyzing an opposition movement anywhere in the world, this is the first question that needs to be asked.”
Wrong.


The first question that needs to be asked in assessing an opposition movement is: what is it a movement in opposition to? What is the class character of the regime it is coming into conflict with and why? Imagine trying to analyze the political character Occupy Wall Street without knowing the first thing about Wall Street! Majidi makes this exact mistake by assessing the Libyan edition of the Arab Spring without first examining the Ghadafi regime in any detail. Doing this would make defending the regime from the protest movement as PSL does impossible because the regime was guilty of the very things Majidi claims define the rebellion as reactionary and right-wing: racism, collaboration with imperialism, and pro-neoliberalism.

http://www.thenorthstar.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/hanging4.7.-77-580x326.jpg
April 4, 1977, Bengazi. PSL's "progressive" regime lynched students
(without trial) every year on April 4 to "commemorate" the anniversary of a 1976 student uprising (http://www.thenorthstar.info/wp-admin/%22http://www.shabablibya.org/news/libyans-remember-april-7th-as-a-day-of-rage-and-grief).


Racism: Much like the Polish, Ukranian (http://www.philology.kiev.ua/new/node/4), and other national minorities of Tsarist Russia, Libya’s Amazigh were forbidden from learning, speaking, or celebrating their language and culture by Ghadafi’s regime. Those that dared risked (http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2011/11/after-centuries-of-oppression-a-libyan-minority-sees-hope-in-qaddafis-fall/249099/) arrest and persecution.


Becker claims “Gaddafi had a lot of support from black Libyans who considered [his] Africa-centric foreign policy to be positive” (33). Does Becker believe Black Libyans supported Ghadafi when he made a racist deal (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/libya-and-the-arab-revolt-in.html) with Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi to keep Italy free (http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2063399,00.html) of Black immigrants, saying (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8170956/Gaddafi-demands-4-billion-from-EU-or-Europe-will-turn-black.html), “We should stop this illegal immigration. If we don't, Europe will become Black, it will be overcome by people with different religions”?
Collaboration with Imperialism: Socialists and War: Two Opposing Trends says not a word about how Ghadafi's regime tortured people on behalf of the CIA (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2199246/CIA-delivered-Gaddafi-Libyan-rebels-torture-waterboarding-widespread-agency-admit.html) and its British counterpart, MI6 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14750998). Nor does it mention Ghadafi's mass expulsion (http://www.nytimes.com/1995/10/05/world/libya-s-leader-urges-other-arab-countries-to-expel-palestinians.html) of thousands of Palestinian refugees in 1995 and his call on other Arab states to follow suit.


Neoliberalism: Majidi never discusses the Ghadafi regime's embrace of neoliberalism, so comrade Becker's words (http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/08/libya-and-the-western-left-2/) on page 27 may come as a shock:
“Following the U.S. invasion of Iraq in 2003, Gaddafi's government saw the handwriting on the wall and sought its own accommodation with the West. It adopted a set of neoliberal policies and invited major western oil companies to do business again, once sanctions had been lifted by Britain and the United States.”
So for PSL, it is acceptable for a racist, tyrannical regime to collaborate with U.S. imperialism and institute neoliberal policies but unacceptable for a revolt against this same regime to have racist, collaborationist, and neoliberal elements or characteristics. What is good for the goose is absolutely impermissible for the gander. When Ghadafi made deals with British Petroleum and other western oil companies, PSL said this was understandable and justified (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/libya-and-the-arab-revolt-in.html); when the post-Ghadafi government honored those same deals, PSL labeled it a pawn of imperialism.


This is doublethink masquerading as Marxist analysis.



Still, the question remains: was it correct to assume (as I did) that the Libyan edition of the Arab Spring was revolutionary and not reactionary, progressive and not regressive? If so, how do we make sense of PSL's charges of racism, collaborationism, and neoliberalism on the part of the Libyan opposition?


The answer to the first question goes to the very heart of what the Arab Spring is – a series of bourgeois-democratic revolutions (http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=5759). Unlike socialist revolutions and national liberation movements, democratic revolutions are not necessarily anti-imperialist; the pro-imperialist post-revolutionary governments in Egypt and Tunisia prove this. While the socialist revolution is principally a struggle by and for the proletariat (in conjunction with other classes and oppressed groups to be sure) against the bourgeoisie as a whole, modern democratic revolutions pit oppositional sections of the bourgeoisie against ruling sections of the bourgeoisie. PSL points to the defection of neoliberal figures like Mahmoud Jibril from Ghadafi's regime to the side of the rebellion as proof that it was reactionary while remaining oblivious to analogous neoliberal figures like Mohammad Morsi and Amr Moussa in the Egyptian revolution and Hamadi Jebali (http://www.counterpunch.org/2012/02/02/the-imf-and-tunisia/) in the Tunisian revolution. PSL does not label these latter revolutions right-wing, reactionary, or “colored.”


Again, PSL's consistent inconsistency is blindly obvious.
Having exposed PSL's inability to grasp that bourgeois and neoliberal forces inevitably play a prominent role in modern democratic revolutions, what of their charges that the Libyan opposition was racist against Blacks and collaborated with imperialism? Does this not invalidate the claim that the Libyan opposition was democratic in character?


Historically speaking, democratic revolutions were not anti-racist nor even consistently democratic, the American revolution in which white slaveholders and racists played a dominant role being a prime example. The fact that bourgeois-democratic rights were not accorded to Blacks in 1776 and that America's post-revolutionary government ruthlessly exterminated the continent's indigenous peoples does not change the revolution's democratic character. Libya's democratic revolution in 2011 is no different in this respect.



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Libya's Black Revolutionary Democrats


The problem for PSL and all those like Richard Seymour (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2011/aug/30/libya-spectacular-revolution-disgraced-racism) who saw Libya's revolutionary democrats as little more than an anti-Black lynch mob (http://blackagendareport.com/content/obama-hosts-international-debut-libya%E2%80%99s-racist-and-thoroughly-non-revolutionary-regime) is that they either deliberately ignored or were blissfully unaware of the significant number of Black Libyans fighting Ghadafi's forces. This would have been impossible if anti-Black racism was the rule rather than the exception (http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/09/12/1015087/-Racism-in-Libya) among the rebels. Southern rebel brigades made up of the Tuareg and Tebo peoples (http://www.temehu.com/Libyan-People.htm) were almost all Black.


Libya's rebels had more Black commanding officers than the Union did during the Civil War and they commanded non-Black and mixed race units.



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Above: Rebel commander Wanis Abu-Khmada berates a group of rebels in the first days of the revolution for their lack of discipline.


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Above: Rebel commander Abdul-Wahab Qayed. After the revolution, he was put in command of Libya’s border protection forces.


Thus, PSL's depiction (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/natos-rebels-are-lynching.html) of Libyan rebels as Klansmen is counterfactual slander.


As for the charge of collaborating or allying with imperialism, undoubtedly this is true. The problem for PSL is that democratic revolutions – unlike socialist revolutions – are not anti-imperialist by definition, and there is no socialist equivalent of the 10 Commandments that forbids such collaboration on a temporary or limited basis. Majidi concedes this, writing:
“It is possible for one imperialist country, or a grouping of imperialist countries, to temporarily aid independence movements in the oppressed world in order to weaken the hold of their imperialist rivals in a different country.”
By the same token, it is possible for one imperialist country, or a grouping of imperialist countries, to temporarily aid democratic revolutions in rival states just as monarchist France aided America's democratic revolution against British colonialism. Only a fool (http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=1263) would conclude that independence movements and democratic revolutions in the oppressed world are reactionary because they receive temporary or limited aid from a reactionary power.


At the root of PSL's litany of errors is their utter failure to understand democratic revolutions as Lenin and Marx did (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/tactics/). This failure leads them to invent a distinction (http://www.scribd.com/doc/133382854/Class-Analysis-of-Upsurge-in-Arab-World) between the “good” Arab Spring (against pro-U.S. dictatorships) and the “bad” Arab Spring (against anti-U.S. dictatorships) instead of realizing that the Arab Spring is an internationalist struggle against all dictatorships. Every country affected by the Arab Spring saw a fight between bourgeois anti-democratic states on the one hand and bourgeois-democratic mass movements on the other; every one of these struggles and movements had and has progressive, democratic (http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=8118) political content compared to the tyrannical governments they struggled to reform or remove.


Supporting one freedom struggle and not another is an exercise in the kind of selective hypocrisy characteristic of liberalism (http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/mao/selected-works/volume-2/mswv2_03.htm), as is the inability to recognize the difference (http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=1948) between revolution and counter-revolution; PSL does both while claiming to be a Marxist organization.
PSL's attempt to pass off eclecticism as Marxism is even more apparent in its internal documents. Richard Becker's “A Class Analysis of the Revolutionary Upsurge in the Arab World (http://www.scribd.com/doc/133382854/Class-Analysis-of-Upsurge-in-Arab-World)” is a 6-page chronological summary that is as broad as it is superficial. It reads more like a Wikipedia entry than a thoroughgoing study of Libya’s development since 1969 when a bourgeois nationalist military coup ended the monarchy and inaugurated Ghadafi's 42-year tyranny from the standpoint of historical materialism. Becker's 277 words “analyzing” (read: describing) Libya contain no discussion of how Ghadafi imported right-less migrant labor to staff the oil industry, creating an unemployed lumpenproletariat among native Libyans, no discussion of the country’s changing class and state structures (http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/21520844.2012.666646#preview), and no recognition of Ghadafi's impoverishment of the standing army in favor of irregular armies of snitches, spies, and enforcers dressed up as “revolutionary committees (http://www.thenorthstar.info/wp-admin/www.shabablibya.org/news/libyans-remember-april-7th-as-a-day-of-rage-and-grief).” The national oppression of the Amazigh is invisible to Becker, mirroring Ghadafi's racist insistence (http://allafrica.com/stories/201103200010.html) that the Amazigh people and culture simply did not exist.


Having failed to properly examine the context and the regime that gave rise to protests in Libya, Majidi moves on to sketch an alternate history of the revolution that conforms all too perfectly with his description of “color revolutions.” He uses the fact that the Libyan revolt could not beat the regime militarily in spring of 2011 as proof that it was not popular, not progressive, nor a genuine revolution; perhaps he has never heard of the Paris Commune of 1871 (http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1871/civil-war-france/index.htm) that was also unable to triumph militarily, or perhaps he believes the Commune to be the very first “color revolution” (orchestrated by German and British imperialists, no doubt). Whatever the case may be, the fact remains that Libya was the first instance in the Arab Spring where a capitalist state used lethal force against peaceful protests on a mass scale – the Egyptian and Tunisian revolutions were fortunately never tested by this kind of wanton bloodshed. Ghadafi was the bloody vanguard of the Arab Spring's counter-revolution, and his violent escalation prompted the democratic opposition led by the National Transition Council to seek (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/02/world/africa/02libya.html?_r=0) military aid from imperialist powers that previously they rejected as unwanted (http://www.thenorthstar.info/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/foreign-300x204.jpg) and unnecessary.


If anyone is to blame for NATO's intervention in Libya, it is Ghadafi. He chose to shoot unarmed protesters en masse, handing NATO the political capital it needed to step into what began as a peaceful struggle.


Majidi goes on to argue that because the NTC did not have the “support of the entire population,” it was a fake, reactionary, unpopular “color revolution,” as if there has ever been a revolution in world history that was an exercise in unanimity! As evidence of popular support for Ghadafi, he points to a single (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ts_qHfVQw2k) state-sponsored rally of hundreds of thousands held in Tripoli “in the midst of the massive NATO bombing” (never mind the fact that NATO attacked only a handful (http://www.nato.int/nato_static/assets/pdf/pdf_2011_07/20110702_110702-oup-update.pdf) of targets in Tripoli’s vicinity that day). What he omits is that Ghadafi was an unelected autocrat with an entire state apparatus (including a secret police) at his disposal to coerce people to show up, and, most damningly, that there has been not one pro-Ghadafi rally in all of Libya in the almost two years since the regime's demise. If Ghadafi's support emanated organically from the grassroots and not from the networks of patronage created by his regime’s oil money, this would not be the case.


Regardless of what position one took on the character of the Libyan opposition back in 2011, what is indisputable today in 2013 is that Ghadafi's repressive bourgeois state machine was smashed (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1917/staterev/ch03.htm) and razed (http://www.economist.com/node/21526958) to the ground by the self-armed population organized in militias, that there is no secret police to terrorize the masses, that strikes (http://www.libyaherald.com/2012/11/14/sidra-terminal-strike-threatens-400000-bd-exports/), protests (http://www.upi.com/Top_News/World-News/2012/11/02/Armed-men-occupy-Libyan-Parliament/UPI-93461351866044/), demonstrations (http://www.juancole.com/2012/09/free-libya-crowds-in-benghazi-rally-against-militias-drive-al-qaeda-out-of-city.html), and sit-ins are now regular occurrences, that freedom of the press (http://feb17.info/media/video-libyas-first-english-radio-show-launches/) and expression (http://www.hrw.org/news/2012/06/14/libya-law-restricting-speech-ruled-unconstitutional) exist, that victims of racist oppression like the Amazigh have made advances (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-21019020), that unlike Kosovo NATO has no bases there, and that free and fair elections for a legislature were held to inaugurate a democratic republic (http://www.juancole.com/2012/08/parliament-takes-over-in-modern-libyas-first-peaceful-transfer-of-power.html). All of this is a great leap forward, a tremendous democratic gain for Libya's oppressed and exploited that vindicates those who understood the Libyan opposition to be progressive, revolutionary, and democratic in character and serves as an irrefutable rebuke to those like PSL who slandered the opposition as monarchist(!) (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/libya-and-the-arab-revolt-in.html), racist (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/natos-rebels-are-lynching.html), unpopular, and reactionary.


Even stranger than PSL's defense of racist, collaborationist tyrannies in Libya and Syria from the Arab Spring’s democratic revolutions is their assertion that today's imperialism and the tasks it poses for socialists remain almost totally unchanged (http://dissidentvoice.org/2012/08/libya-and-the-western-left-2/) from Lenin's time. In the face of wars like Libya and Mali where Iraq-style colonization is not the name of the game, PSL can evidently only repeat 100-year-old formulas about anti-colonial (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1914/self-det/) wars and revolutionary defeatism (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/jul/26.htm).



http://www.thenorthstar.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/PSL.png (http://www.thenorthstar.info/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/PSL.png)



Standing with independent bourgeois nationalist governments as they slaughter their own peoples by the tens of thousands because said governments have conflicts of interest with imperialist powers is altogether different from standing with national liberation movements like the Vietnamese NLF who battled the slaughter (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBDKzcjMHEs) wrought by French and American occupiers. The first is criminal stupidity, the second is anti-imperialism.


Two opposing trends indeed.

khad
22nd April 2013, 22:19
Nobody cares about your Al-Nusra Wahhabist propaganda, Binh.

l'Enfermé
22nd April 2013, 22:25
Wahhabi propaganda, Binh? Really?

This is relevant:

Aahhahahahahahahhaha. In order to further the cause of the Syrian Revolutionary People's Revolution, I have made a GIF, which hopefully will aid the Syrian Revolutionaries in their recruitment efforts.

http://i.imgur.com/7vmM3Tv.gif

Binh
22nd April 2013, 22:26
Khad: You do. :)

Binh
22nd April 2013, 22:26
Also, where did Nusra ever say anything about Black rebels in Libya? Ya'll are always good for a LOL.

Raúl Duke
22nd April 2013, 23:01
Majidi's article, “When Justifying Imperialist Intervention 'Goes Wrong' (http://www.pslweb.org/liberationnews/news/justifying-imperialist-interventionint.html)” is a Revleft (http://www.revleft.com/)-style response to my essay


Revleft (http://www.revleft.com/)-style

I stopped reading right there...

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
22nd April 2013, 23:19
Also, where did Nusra ever say anything about Black rebels in Libya? Ya'll are always good for a LOL.

Let's take this from a less moronic angle.

First of all, there are a few basic premises we have to accept. Both sides are committing abuses of human rights, however it's simply an objective fact that Assad is much worse in that category. And even if Assad was the more "humane" of the factions, then what does this means in terms of how we should view him? After all, we are communists, we do intend to violently overthrow capitalism and to a certain extent, even counter revolutionary violence is our fault because we would be starting the revolution in the first place. So I really have no desire to do the sort of mud slinging that I've seen occur over the debate, I don't want to play the role of the tankie who cares about vulgar empiricism and number counting as the sole premise to base his argument upon. Because if we take this approach, then I'm sure I could twist the numbers to prove that Assad is a saint. But we both know that is simply wrong, and even if it were correct it'd be irrelevant. After all, Lenin was quite the bastard when it came with dealing with the peasant rebellions, but of course we celebrate him.

So let's look at this from a Marxist perspective. Eh? We know that islamists are coming in fast, they make up about 1/4 of the opposition and they are growing quickly by cutting off supplies to other elements of the opposition. But let's not focus on this. In your previous work, you've identified various forms of revolution, socialist revolution, national liberation, and bourgeois democratic. Additionally, you have remarked that you would still support the Syrian revolt even if it went islamist. Or at least that is the logical conclusion of what you've said before. To quote you're piece Marxist Idealism and the Arab Spring:


Even if the elements that we Marxists find abhorrent were the dominant strand in the Syrian uprising, it would still be a bourgeois-democratic revolution, an armed struggle against tyranny and political oppression. A struggle’s class and political content is not reducible to the character or program of the political forces leading it, dominating it, or that end up in power as a result of it. Bourgeois-democratic revolutions have almost always been led by undemocratic forces and led to less-than-fully-democratic outcomes. The American revolution was led by white male property-holding slaveowners bent on ending British rule so they could finish exterminating the indigenous peoples and colonizing their land. The Iranian revolution toppled the U.S.-backed Shah and led to the creation of a police state with some democratic trappings after Islamist forces gained enough popular support to crush the left.


Now in a certain sense you are right, if islamists came in and started slaughtering woman and Christians left and right, it'd still be a bourgeois democrat revolution. OK, I'll accept this premise. After all, the FARC in their national liberation war have killed plenty of innocent peasants, and the Shining Path engaged in plenty of excesses when they embraced on a revisionist line. Fine, I'm not going to be a hypocrite and complain about the morality of it. Still as a side note, I will remind you that bringing up the "moral" aspects of history is not "moralism" or idealism, but a very concrete part of the historical materialist method. To quote Marx from Das Kapital


In contradistinction therefore to the case of the other commodities, there enters into the determination of the value of labor power a historical and moral element.

So what Marx is saying here is that indeed the very idea of socialist revolution requires a concept of possitivism, after all the capitalist can always turn around and say the market it is better than feudalism. Likewise, writing off atrocities as it they don't matter in a relative sense is not Marxism, but indeed the anti-thesis of Marxism. Though I will again admit that atrocities do not make or break the merit of a movement in terms of it's value except maybe in extreme cases such as Cambodia, though Pol Pot was a revisionist anyway.

So back the the question, it is indeed a bourgeois democratic revolution, we've established that. The question is, should we support it? I'd say no.

Yes I am aware of the Lenin quotes that you have used to back up your argument, but let's look at the context of these quotes. That was back when the Russian left embraced "stagism" where it was thought that the bourgeois had to fulfill their historic role before the proletariat could take their turn. We saw this during the revolution of 1905, and the other bourgeois revolutions in Russia. However, despite some minor paper laws about freedom, nothing really changed. The Russian empire was still am authoritarian, semi-feudal formation. Clearly the bourgeois didn't do their job. While they still had a historic role in pre-capitalist formations, unless they were a component in a larger proletarian revolution it appears that bourgeois democratic revolutions didn't actually matter that much in the places that the "stagist" theory was aimed at.

So now we find ourselves where we are today, Syria is a bourgeois state. The FSA is a bourgeois army. If the Syrian state wins we will have a bourgeois state, if the FSA wins we will have a bourgeois state. At least according to stagist theory, it was valid to argue that the bourgeois had a progressive role in pre-capitalist formations, but what progressive role are the bourgeois carrying out in Syria? In anti-imperialist bourgeois revolutions such as those in Venzeula, they are at least progressive insofar that they are not supporting American imperialism, but if the FSA wins then Syria will switch to the side of American imperialism from Russian imperialism. What is gained here? What progressive role does the FSA play? Sure you can say that they are installing liberal democracy, but is that really valuable? After all, when lenin praised bourgeois democratic revolutions he did so in the context that they would change the mode of production and the class composition of the rulling class. A FSA victory would change......nothing. Yes it would be slightly better, but is ti really worth it? Do we really endorse everything that is slightly better? At least the CP-USA fellas have some merit in that they endorse the left wing of capital, but this isn't even the left wing of capital, it's just plain old capital. That's not to say that Communists have no role in Syria, it just isn't to support the FSA whose mission was only progressive in certain historical contexts, not the modern world.

KurtFF8
23rd April 2013, 14:31
For critizing the PSL for writing a "Revleft-style response," this article reminds me quite a bit of a revleft response.

blake 3:17
24th April 2013, 10:31
@ Binh -- You're a smart guy but you're full of nonsense. I'm pretty ashamed that we didn't act to oppose the attack on Libya. A bunch of folks I'd look for some direction on issues like this were fence sitters & then it was over and now it's a social disaster.

There's no need to romanticize Baathism, but to romanticize the FSA? or FSAs?

blake 3:17
24th April 2013, 10:42
From the article below: "And in Libya, black people are persecuted." This is after the wonderful revolution. Qaddafi had many faults, but he did defend black folks in Libya under his rule.


Libya: Refugees of Libyan War Protest At World Social Forum
BY ALBERTO PRADILLA, 31 MARCH 2013

Tunis — "We need a solution. The U.N. has created the problem, and they should do their work and fix it," says Bright, a young Nigerian stuck in the Choucha refugee camp in Tunisia, a few kilometres from the Libyan border.

Bright and hundreds of other refugees have spent the last two years in a camp that has turned into a no man's land. They are mainly immigrants from sub-Saharan Africa who were living in Libya but fled the country at the start of the armed clashes that led to the fall of the regime of Muammar Gaddafi (1969-2011).

Of the thousands who originally crossed the border, 250 are left, from different countries. Their refugee status is not recognised, and officially they don't exist. The United Nations rejected their applications for asylum, and they can't return to their countries of origin or Libya, where blacks are suspected of being loyalists or mercenaries and face repression.

They are living in extreme conditions, and their plight is ignored by international institutions and the Tunisian government.

During this week's World Social Forum, held in Tunis, a group of 50 refugees made it to the capital to demand a solution. Thirty-seven of them declared a hunger strike on Friday Mar. 29 outside the office of the U.N. refugee agency (UNHCR).

The hunger strikers pledged to continue their fast until a solution was found. The situation of the refugees will become even more complex if the camp is closed in June, as the UNHCR has announced.

"In my country I was active in political issues, so I was persecuted. That's why I went to Libya," Mousa Ibrahim, from Ghana, tells IPS. Ghanaians are the largest group in Choucha, where there are 80 people from that West African nation.

Ibrahim says he was working in Zawiya, a city on Libya's Mediterranean coast 45 km west of Tripoli, until Mar. 20, 2011. When the civil war broke out, he fled with his then-pregnant wife and their five-year-old son.

"I registered in the camp because they promised that they would recognise us as refugees," he complains. But more than 48 months have gone by; his daughter Jalida was born in Choucha, and his situation has merely gotten worse and worse.

"The Tunisian refugee commission has rejected me. They say I have two options: to go back to my country or return to Libya. In Ghana I would be thrown into prison or killed. And in Libya, black people are persecuted. I just want to be recognised as a refugee and allowed to go to a country where I can live in safety," he says.

Full article: http://allafrica.com/stories/201304010087.html

Sinister Cultural Marxist
24th April 2013, 16:33
From the article below: "And in Libya, black people are persecuted." This is after the wonderful revolution. Qaddafi had many faults, but he did defend black folks in Libya under his rule.


The negative impact of the uprising on Black Libyan civilians, particularly in the city of Tawergha, is clear for everyone to see. From what I have read the town has still been ethnically cleansed as its black residents have not been allowed to return to their homes by armed groups from Misratah. However, one minority was repressed by Gaddafi - the Berbers in the Nafusa mountains. Gaddafi's pan-Arabic national chauvinism left no place for them, their culture and their language. In their case it seems easy to see the link between state policies and the discontent which led to the uprising in the first place, as opposed to just being a "color revolution" instigated by Western manipulation.

As much as anything else, it should be clear that neither side avoided reactionary discourses when it suited their purposes.

Luís Henrique
24th April 2013, 17:09
I'm pretty ashamed that we didn't act to oppose the attack on Libya.

The reason why "we" didn't act to oppose the attack on Libya is that "we" could not find a way of doing it without lionising the Libyan regime. In the limit, because "we" confused "opposing the attack" with "cheering for Gaddafy".

Luís Henrique

Geiseric
26th April 2013, 01:53
The reason why "we" didn't act to oppose the attack on Libya is that "we" could not find a way of doing it without lionising the Libyan regime. In the limit, because "we" confused "opposing the attack" with "cheering for Gaddafy".

Luís Henrique

I never did. I was saying the whole time that non intervention was the only acceptable course for the entire situation.

Luís Henrique
26th April 2013, 15:02
I never did. I was saying the whole time that non intervention was the only acceptable course for the entire situation.

Unhappily it wasn't our call to intervene or not to intervene.

Luís Henrique

Binh
26th April 2013, 18:38
I stopped reading right there...

Never pays to attack the audience. Oh well.

Binh
26th April 2013, 18:40
The negative impact of the uprising on Black Libyan civilians, particularly in the city of Tawergha, is clear for everyone to see. From what I have read the town has still been ethnically cleansed as its black residents have not been allowed to return to their homes by armed groups from Misratah. However, one minority was repressed by Gaddafi - the Berbers in the Nafusa mountains. Gaddafi's pan-Arabic national chauvinism left no place for them, their culture and their language. In their case it seems easy to see the link between state policies and the discontent which led to the uprising in the first place, as opposed to just being a "color revolution" instigated by Western manipulation.

As much as anything else, it should be clear that neither side avoided reactionary discourses when it suited their purposes.

Tawergha was about revenge killings, not race or skin color. The town could have been filled with white Norwegians or green Martians and the result would have been identical.

Binh
26th April 2013, 18:40
For critizing the PSL for writing a "Revleft-style response," this article reminds me quite a bit of a revleft response.

Except for the rigorous argumentation and sourcing and lack of personal attacks and ad hominems, yes.

Binh
26th April 2013, 18:43
So now we find ourselves where we are today, Syria is a bourgeois state. The FSA is a bourgeois army. If the Syrian state wins we will have a bourgeois state, if the FSA wins we will have a bourgeois state. At least according to stagist theory, it was valid to argue that the bourgeois had a progressive role in pre-capitalist formations, but what progressive role are the bourgeois carrying out in Syria? In anti-imperialist bourgeois revolutions such as those in Venzeula, they are at least progressive insofar that they are not supporting American imperialism, but if the FSA wins then Syria will switch to the side of American imperialism from Russian imperialism. What is gained here? What progressive role does the FSA play? Sure you can say that they are installing liberal democracy, but is that really valuable? After all, when lenin praised bourgeois democratic revolutions he did so in the context that they would change the mode of production and the class composition of the rulling class. A FSA victory would change......nothing. Yes it would be slightly better, but is ti really worth it? Do we really endorse everything that is slightly better? At least the CP-USA fellas have some merit in that they endorse the left wing of capital, but this isn't even the left wing of capital, it's just plain old capital. That's not to say that Communists have no role in Syria, it just isn't to support the FSA whose mission was only progressive in certain historical contexts, not the modern world.

I'm glad you did your homework on my views instead of just creating strawmen, which are cheap, plentiful, and useless.

The difference between the two bourgeois sides in Syria (and Libya) is between bourgeois fascism and bourgeois democracy, tyranny and a police state versus freedom to organize unions and parties. The working class and oppressed peoples have a definite interest in one side defeating the other in their (coming) direct struggle against capital. No?

Rusty Shackleford
26th April 2013, 20:30
s.

The difference between the two bourgeois sides in Syria (and Libya) is between bourgeois fascism and bourgeois democracy, tyranny and a police state versus freedom to organize unions and parties. The working class and oppressed peoples have a definite interest in one side defeating the other in their (coming) direct struggle against capital. No?


You mean between Bourgeois Nationalists and Comprador Bourgeois. The Program of Ba'athism is Bourgeois Nationalism that sits in the ream of weak social democracy. Obviously pan-arab nationalism (and arab socialism) have degenerated politically and economically as political programs but there is also context.

African Socialism and Nationalism like Arab Socialism and Nationalism was a struggle of the post colonial era that was somewhat unaligned with either faction of the Cold War. Sometimes though, nationalists found friends in Moscow and even brokered long lasting and deep treaties like the one between the fSU and Syria which has carried on to be one between the Russian Federation and Syria.

Obviously with the change of class dynamics in the fSU and modern Russia has changed the relationship between them and Syria. It has become an exploitative relationship, but Syria is not wholly a client because the basis of the government was in nationalism, and not a foreign overthrow plot. It has a national bourgeoisie with its own national class interest and it is running the show. It also hasn't done a complete about-face like Egypt had.

Nationalists are no saints though, this is also true. And nationalists did not always 'side' with the fSU or the PRC, some were more comfortable (or under great pressure) to maintain the economic relationship they had with their former colonizers or new found american imperial sponsors and friends. In the face of major world events, the national bourgeoisie may side with imperialist forces as a way to protect itself in the near future as Libya did with its 'partners' in europe and north america, and as Syria did in the gulf war (not to mention splits in the ba'ath movement).

In Syria, there do exist unions. In Syria there do also exist multiple political parties.


The working class and oppressed peoples have a definite interest in one side defeating the other in their (coming) direct struggle against capital.

Do you have a crystal ball? What is happening is a civil war between two bourgeois factions, with their own imperial sponsors and both with their own base. The working class is not organized and operating as a class in its own class interest, it is doing the work of the bourgeoisie against its competitors.

If this is the case, which it most certainly is, then how can you speak of the working class having a unified interest in this scenario, and how can you then go on to say that there will be, as a result of the civil war, a direct struggle against capital itself?

Is there a revolutionary proletarian struggle that is wide and in its own class interests in Libya today? Or are there militias fighting each other over turf in some neighborhoods in Tripoli and elsewhere for whatever reason?

What is to say that these 'democratic revolutionaries' wont follow the footsteps of Pinochet or Mubarak and have their own police states? What is to say the islamists, the great bourgeois democrats, will not emulate other us-friendly shariah states?


Im going to leave a proper response to your article to Majidi or other comrades.

blake 3:17
1st May 2013, 03:50
The reason why "we" didn't act to oppose the attack on Libya is that "we" could not find a way of doing it without lionising the Libyan regime. In the limit, because "we" confused "opposing the attack" with "cheering for Gaddafy".

Luís Henrique

Canada was very active in the NATO action against Libya. It was approved by parliament and there wasn't a single significant protest action against it.

We weren't so stupid on Iraq or Serbia.

I used to pay attention to Gilbert Achcar. No longer.

Rusty Shackleford
1st May 2013, 03:56
Inaction against intervention could be related to a gross misunderstanding of the relationship between occupy and the arab spring in the west. I havent looked into it, but its an idea.

blake 3:17
1st May 2013, 04:02
I'm glad you did your homework on my views instead of just creating strawmen, which are cheap, plentiful, and useless.

The difference between the two bourgeois sides in Syria (and Libya) is between bourgeois fascism and bourgeois democracy, tyranny and a police state versus freedom to organize unions and parties. The working class and oppressed peoples have a definite interest in one side defeating the other in their (coming) direct struggle against capital. No?

How are you so certain that bourgeois democracy is on the other side? Why not genocide? Or endless civil war? Or that Syria will be reduced to a chessboard for the US, Israel, China, and Russia?

Anyways, the Washington Post is reporting Obama is moving in, so I guess you win this round.

Luís Henrique
1st May 2013, 12:19
Canada was very active in the NATO action against Libya. It was approved by parliament and there wasn't a single significant protest action against it.

We weren't so stupid on Iraq or Serbia.

I used to pay attention to Gilbert Achcar. No longer.

I find it hard to include both me (or revleft, or the Brazilian left, or the left in general) and the Canadian State into a "we".

Luís Henrique

Luís Henrique
1st May 2013, 12:28
How are you so certain that bourgeois democracy is on the other side? Why not genocide? Or endless civil war? Or that Syria will be reduced to a chessboard for the US, Israel, China, and Russia?

Well, we can look at what happened in Libya. The "anti-imperialist" left told us that Libya would become a Salafist monarchy, run by Muslim extremists, with no democracy at all, giving oil for free to the "West", acting in the interests of Israel, drowning into civil war between clans, splitting into three different countries, and systematically erradicating the Black Libyan population.

We look at it now, and it definitely doesn't look as anything like what was promised. It remains a republic (and a single polity), the Islamic fundamentalist party lost the elections (there were elections!), oil continues to be sold as ever, there is nothing like a civil war, the clans seem to still have no practical political importance, the Black population is not more at risk than it was under Gaddafi, and while certainly it can't compare with Norway in matters of personal freedom, it certainly is no longer a demented dictatorship like it used to be.

So, before believing the "anti-imperialist" left's predictions for Syria, I would like to see some evidence that they fixed their crystal ball, or that they bought a new one.

Luís Henrique

GerrardWinstanley
2nd May 2013, 10:24
I'm glad you did your homework on my views instead of just creating strawmen, which are cheap, plentiful, and useless.

The difference between the two bourgeois sides in Syria (and Libya) is between bourgeois fascism and bourgeois democracy, tyranny and a police state versus freedom to organize unions and parties. The working class and oppressed peoples have a definite interest in one side defeating the other in their (coming) direct struggle against capital. No?
There was me thinking that in order to have bourgeois revolution, you had to fundamentally change the mode of production. Given that, as Rusty Shackleford rightly points out, the Salafis in Syria (as in Libya) would set up a comprador state making real economic development and emergence impossible, how are accelerationists supposed to account for this?

DasFapital
3rd May 2013, 06:11
That PSL article was stupid. Anti-imperialism at its most black and white and pathetic.

Binh
12th August 2013, 21:14
There was me thinking that in order to have bourgeois revolution, you had to fundamentally change the mode of production.

This is a common misconception among Marxists. It is entirely possible to have bourgeois-democratic revolutions without transitions from feudalism. Portugal 1974 would be one example; Iran 1979 would be another.

Bea Arthur
14th August 2013, 19:28
This is a common misconception among Marxists. It is entirely possible to have bourgeois-democratic revolutions without transitions from feudalism. Portugal 1974 would be one example; Iran 1979 would be another.

I am confused by this formulation. Maybe it's because I am so weak on theory. Isn't a bourgeois revolution by definition a revolution that marks a move from one mode of production to another? How can a bourgeois revolution happen without a transition from one mode of production to another?

Binh
14th August 2013, 20:30
I am confused by this formulation. Maybe it's because I am so weak on theory. Isn't a bourgeois revolution by definition a revolution that marks a move from one mode of production to another? How can a bourgeois revolution happen without a transition from one mode of production to another?

Revolutions are not simply about shifts in the mode of production. As Lenin put it (http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1905/jul/26.htm), "[W]hat is revolution from the Marxist point of view? The violent break-up of the obsolete political superstructure, the contradiction between which and the new relations of production caused its collapse at a certain moment."

A victorious bourgeois-democratic revolution in the context of feudal or pre-capitalist social relations (Europe in the 1600s-1800s) led to changes in the mode of production in France, England, the Netherlands, and eventually Italy and other countries.

However, there are cases of bourgeois-democratic revolutions that do not involve such shifts, where the beginning point was one form or type of capitalism and the end point was another form or type of capitalism. Portugal in 1974 experienced a revolution of this type. The old, fascist superstructure violently cracked under the pressure of losing three colonial wars and a number of other unresolved contradictions. The new, bourgeois-democratic superstructure that replaced it was not socialism or proletarian rule by any stretch; nonetheless, it was a revolution, a democratic revolution, a revolution creating a democratic form of government underpinned by commodity production. The Tunisian and Libyan revolutions of 2011 are more recent examples of this. You could not possible describe those overturns as anything other than bourgeois-democratic. (Do you agree on that point, Bea Arthur?)

I examined this problem/issue with regard to Egypt 2011-2013 here: http://www.thenorthstar.info/?p=9425