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View Full Version : Can you explain to me what Engels is describing here?



Bostana
22nd April 2013, 02:58
In the Principles of Communism Engels wrights:
In Germany, finally, the decisive struggle now on the order of the day is that between the bourgeoisie and the absolute monarchy. Since the communists cannot enter upon the decisive struggle between themselves and the bourgeoisie until the bourgeoisie is in power, it follows that it is in the interest of the communists to help the bourgeoisie to power as soon as possible in order the sooner to be able to overthrow it. Against the governments, therefore, the communists must continually support the radical liberal party, taking care to avoid the self-deceptions of the bourgeoisie and not fall for the enticing promises of benefits which a victory for the bourgeoisie would allegedly bring to the proletariat. The sole advantages which the proletariat would derive from a bourgeois victory would consist

(i) in various concessions which would facilitate the unification of the proletariat into a closely knit, battle-worthy, and organized class; and

(ii) in the certainly that, on the very day the absolute monarchies fall, the struggle between bourgeoisie and proletariat will start. From that day on, the policy of the communists will be the same as it now is in the countries where the bourgeoisie is already in power.

So, in short terms, is he saying the proletarian should team up with the Bourgeoisie to start a revolution and over throw the absolute monarchy (Aristocracy) and then start another revolution that will overthrow the Bourgeoisie. Is it more elaborate then that? Does the revolution start as soon as the aristocracy is overthrown?

Thanks Comrades :)

EDIT: Alright I'm gonna be straight-forward is this like what Mao described as a bourgeois-democratic revolution.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
22nd April 2013, 03:03
I've mentioned this quote a couple of times. In essense, in pre-capitalist formations it's a bit absurd to talk of the contradictions of capitalism being the [I]primary contradictions[/I. In such a scenerio the bourgeois still has a historic role so combatting them isn't the focus of Communist politics, however once capitalism has been created then the primary contradiction shifts and the class struggle indeed should refocus to go against the bourgeois.

Geiseric
22nd April 2013, 03:11
In the Principles of Communism Engels wrights:
In Germany, finally, the decisive struggle now on the order of the day is that between the bourgeoisie and the absolute monarchy. Since the communists cannot enter upon the decisive struggle between themselves and the bourgeoisie until the bourgeoisie is in power, it follows that it is in the interest of the communists to help the bourgeoisie to power as soon as possible in order the sooner to be able to overthrow it. Against the governments, therefore, the communists must continually support the radical liberal party, taking care to avoid the self-deceptions of the bourgeoisie and not fall for the enticing promises of benefits which a victory for the bourgeoisie would allegedly bring to the proletariat. The sole advantages which the proletariat would derive from a bourgeois victory would consist

(i) in various concessions which would facilitate the unification of the proletariat into a closely knit, battle-worthy, and organized class; and

(ii) in the certainly that, on the very day the absolute monarchies fall, the struggle between bourgeoisie and proletariat will start. From that day on, the policy of the communists will be the same as it now is in the countries where the bourgeoisie is already in power.

So, in short terms, is he saying the proletarian should team up with the Bourgeoisie to start a revolution and over throw the absolute monarchy (Aristocracy) and then start another revolution that will overthrow the Bourgeoisie. Is it more elaborate then that? Does the revolution start as soon as the aristocracy is overthrown?

Thanks Comrades :)

Large regions of germany were basically feudal era, and there was conflicts between the aristocrats and the bourgeois like there was in the U.S. with the north and the south. Communists should of critically supported the northern army during the civil war, it was the same thing with the german bourgeois at that point. It was progressive like the Italian unification.

Aurora
22nd April 2013, 03:50
'Team up' might be a bit strong, he's saying that when the bourgeois are revolutionary that carrying forward that revolution in largely peasant absolutist Germany would be a step forward towards the creation of a proletariat capable of carrying out it's own revolution, but that the bourgeois shouldn't be trusted and the communists should remain politically independent and following the overthrow of absolutism must immediately put the socialist revolution forward.

I don't think Engels conceives of the socialist revolution immediately following the democratic one but rather that it could create the conditions which exist in other democratic countries like right of assembly, a free press, a legal communist party etc which would help facilitate the development of a proletariat organised for itself.

This was in 1840 mind and by the revolution of 1848 Marx and Engels take a different view, in Revolution and Counter-Revolution in Germany they say quite strongly that the bourgeoisie in Germany cannot play the same part as the French bourgeoisie did in 1789 that the German bourgeoisie see danger in revolution and want to conciliate themselves to the old society.
This is also the basis of Trotsky's theory of permanent revolution btw, that the Russian bourgeoisie cannot play a revolutionary role anymore and from this the proletariat must win the support of the peasant masses and in establishing it's dictatorship carry out first the tasks that the bourgeois were incapable of doing but then continue uninterrupted to carrying out it's own socialist tasks.