Fatphobia and thin privilege

[goalkeeper]

I've been noticing more and more references to this on tumblr and twitter from lefty moonbats.

Is this going to become a thing? Are people going to started being called out to "check their privilege" if they joke about fat people? Is this already the case in some activist circles?

[The Feral Underclass]

What is intrinsically problematic with either of those scenarios?

[Vanilla]

God forbid that someone calls you out for making fun of someone. I think it's good that some people are trying to be more kind to fat people.

[Prof. Oblivion]

God forbid that someone calls you out for making fun of someone. I think it's good that some people are trying to be more kind to fat people.

It's not about just "making fun of fat people". Some people are equating thin privilege to segregation and what blacks went through, or what LGBTQ are going through now. Many are essentially using it as an excuse to rationalize their unhealthy condition.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

IAre people going to started being called out to "check their privilege" if they joke about fat people? Is this already the case in some activist circles?
People who joke about overweight people are assholes.

[The Feral Underclass]

It's not about just "making fun of fat people". Some people are equating thin privilege to segregation and what blacks went through, or what LGBTQ are going through now.

But it is an identity issue and an identity that is used to undermine and persecute people and uphold various bourgeois cultural standards, especially where women are concerned. The issues around weight are almost always linked to the patriarchal view of how bourgeois society expects women to be.


Many are essentially using it as an excuse to rationalize their unhealthy condition.

On what basis do you make this judgement? This just seems like your own personal, prejudicial conjecture, rather than a well thought out criticism.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

People who joke about overweight people are assholes.

True, to an extent, and only sometimes.

Conversely, fat people who don't recognise the negative social externalities they are causing by being fat are also assholes, and selfish ones at that. Even more so, the companies who survive by exploiting fat people's whims are the biggest assholes of all.

But individually, it is possible for people with the will to be healthy to be so. There is probably a somewhat even distribution of blame to be shared across the spectrum by those who supply the tools for fat people to be fat (i.e the companies) and people themselves for getting into such habits, and their parents for encouraging such habits, and governments, schools and leisure centres for not educating parents and kids about what causes obesity, overweightness, how to eat healthily and the benefits of exercise.

[The Feral Underclass]

True, to an extent, and only sometimes.

Conversely, fat people who don't recognise the negative social externalities they are causing by being fat are also assholes, and selfish ones at that. Even more so, the companies who survive by exploiting fat people's whims are the biggest assholes of all.

But individually, it is possible for people with the will to be healthy to be so. There is probably a somewhat even distribution of blame to be shared across the spectrum by those who supply the tools for fat people to be fat (i.e the companies) and people themselves for getting into such habits, and their parents for encouraging such habits, and governments, schools and leisure centres for not educating parents and kids about what causes obesity, overweightness, how to eat healthily and the benefits of exercise.

Wait a minute. This assumes that fat people ought to want to be thin.

This persons post is precisely the kind of view that maintains bourgeois cultural standards. If people want to be thin and exercise then they should do that, if people don't want to do that, then they can do something else that makes them happy, and not be subject to other people's patronising, moralising and bourgeois views.

As for children, of course children should be encouraged to eat healthily and be active, but only up until that point that they have the agency to determine what they want their body, health and lives to consist of.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

True, to an extent, and only sometimes.
No, always.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Wait a minute. This assumes that fat people ought to want to be thin.

This persons post is precisely the kind of view that maintains bourgeois cultural standards. If people want to be thin and exercise then they should do that, if people don't want to do that, then they can do something else that makes them happy, and not be subject to other people's patronising, moralising and bourgeois views.

As for children, of course children should be encouraged to eat healthily and be active, but only up until that point that they have the agency to determine what they want their body, health and lives to consist of.

I never said thin. And if I did, then that's not what I meant. I'm not talking about cultural attitudes to what the body should look like, i'm talking about the difference between health and lack of health. The former doesn't have to make one look like a cover model, but being very overweight or obese certainly makes someone the latter.

It's not what someone 'should' do. If someone wants to be fat, they shouldn't be forced to be thin, but they also shouldn't then act as though they have some moral higher ground when the reality is that obesity, if generalised across a population, is a huge and needless source of negative social externalities. I think that's the key. It's not persecution because there is really no upside to being obese.

Unless of course being healthy is really some mind control tool used by the bourgeoisie, the feudal lords and the slave and ancient barbaric rulers to maintain their ruling hegemonic standards. :rolleyes:

[The Feral Underclass]

I'm not talking about cultural attitudes to what the body should look like


i'm talking about the difference between health and lack of health. The former doesn't have to make one look like a cover model, but being very overweight or obese certainly makes someone the latter.

This is a cultural attitude. "Health" as a social norm has been fetishised and promoted as a standard model by which human beings should be judged.

It's not necessarily a question of looking like a cover model, it's a question of projecting an image of health as a standard societal format that individuals should conform to. There is no basis by which you can determine how a human being interacts with their own health.

Views on health should be restricted to individuals.


It's not what someone 'should' do. If someone wants to be fat, they shouldn't be forced to be thin, but they also shouldn't then act as though they have some moral higher ground when the reality is that obesity, if generalised across a population, is a huge and needless source of negative social externalities.

Firstly, this is a bit of a red herring. There is never going to be a situation where obesity is generalised across a population. Obesity is a public health issue insofar as it is considered a drain on resources, but is not going in a direction that you are imagining.

Secondly, people who are subjected to ridicule and persecution because of their weight should act, and if that means taking a "high ground" then so be it. Ridicule and persecution based on their weight is unacceptable.

Those who choose to be overweight or just happen to be that way are perfectly entitled for that to be the case and when faced with growing social stigma, a reaction is to be expected.


I think that's the key. It's not persecution because there is really no upside to being obese.

Says who? For a start, I know several people who would probably be considered "obese" and their partners, who find bigger to be sexier, if you catch my drift.

The issue here is social stigma, in which you are participating.


Unless of course being healthy is really some mind control tool used by the bourgeoisie, the feudal lords and the slave and ancient barbaric rulers to maintain their ruling hegemonic standards. :rolleyes:

I have no idea why you said this, but I'm going to ignore it because it's stupid.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

[QUOTE=The Anarchist Tension;2608041]This is a cultural attitude. "Health" as a social norm has been fetishised and promoted as a standard model by which human beings should be judged.

How the fuck is health a cultural attitude? This is bullshit. It's not a standard model, it's not something to 'judge' humans against, i'd have just thought it'd be a fairly non-controversial point that being healthy is better than being unhealthy, with very overweight/obese people being a corollary of the latter.


It's not necessarily a question of looking like a cover model, it's a question of projecting an image of health as a standard societal format that individuals should conform to. There is no basis by which you can determine how a human being interacts with their own health.

Why would it be bad for people to conform to health? Why is it bad for good health to be a social norm? This is individualist bullshit you're projecting here and it has no basis in reality aside from 'leave me alone, let me do what I want'. Whilst there is always an element of that in any societal choice (which is why people shouldn't, of course, be 'forced' into doing something), there is also an element of what is good for society; a society of healthy people undoubtedly provides far greater benefits for individuals and the entire group than a society of unhealthy people. That is just common sense, i'd have thought?


Views on health should be restricted to individuals.

And my individual belief is that anybody who, having the privilege of having a living standard that allows them potential good health without too much effort, and chooses bad health, is an idiot. Not everybody has the privilege of being able to be healthy, those who abuse that are really fucking idiots in my book. I'm not gonna sit around and say 'yeah you look great gorging on shit food, sitting like a couch potato smoking your life away' just so I don't hurt someone's feelings. Why should I?


Firstly, this is a bit of a red herring. There is never going to be a situation where obesity is generalised across a population. Obesity is a public health issue insofar as it is considered a drain on resources, but is not going in a direction that you are imagining.

I would say we are headed towards that direction, given trends over recent decades, where most adults will be overweight pretty soon.


Secondly, people who are subjected to ridicule and persecution because of their weight should act, and if that means taking a "high ground" then so be it. Ridicule and persecution based on their weight is unacceptable.

I was talking about 'making a joke', not fucking persecution.


Those who choose to be overweight or just happen to be that way are perfectly entitled for that to be the case and when faced with growing social stigma, a reaction is to be expected.

When someone makes a joke about this sort of thing, there does tend to be a reaction, yes.


Says who? For a start, I know several people who would probably be considered "obese" and their partners, who find bigger to be sexier, if you catch my drift.

Good for them. Nobody is saying they shouldn't. That's not really the point here.

[Comrade #138672]

Ridiculing fat people has nothing to do with health concerns.

[Prof. Oblivion]

But it is an identity issue and an identity that is used to undermine and persecute people and uphold various bourgeois cultural standards, especially where women are concerned. The issues around weight are almost always linked to the patriarchal view of how bourgeois society expects women to be.

Just because obesity goes against "the patriarchal view" does not mean that it is a good thing, nor does it mean that those who oppose obesity inherently are defending such "patriarchal views".

Further, obese people are limited by their size, not their "lack of privilege". To compare this to other struggles or to equate it with such things as civil rights is absolutely absurd. There is no such thing as "thin privilege".

[goalkeeper]

Im not talking about being assholes to people and shouting abuse about people due to how they look. Obviously thats not nice, and decent people refrain from such behaviour. Being mean to people is mean, yeah. Generally though, making abusive comments to someone on the basis of characteristics that result in them facing discrimination and oppression from the larger forces is society such as the state, police etc, is, at least among the left, not acceptable.

What i am talking about is turning fat people into some sort of oppressed group on par with oppressed ethnic minorities. Will this result in making jokes about "fatness" in general being as socially unacceptable as jokes about black people etc. So for example the fat scottish guy in Austin Powers that goes "look at my sexy body"; that would be akin to minstrel comedy?

[goalkeeper]

Also, the word of everyones keyboard these days seems to "intersectionality"; if "fat phobia" is placed within this, does this mean Eric Pickles has an intersection? You may retort that people like Syed Warsi is also from a group (or two) with a lane on the intersection, but i mean, she does have to put up with a lot of shit like the right wing calling her a "token appointment" etc

[Comrade #138672]

Just because obesity goes against "the patriarchal view" does not mean that it is a good thing, nor does it mean that those who oppose obesity inherently are defending such "patriarchal views".

Further, obese people are limited by their size, not their "lack of privilege". To compare this to other struggles or to equate it with such things as civil rights is absolutely absurd. There is no such thing as "thin privilege".Even though fatphobia doesn't necessarily stand on the same line as sexism, racism, etc., I do think that there is a relationship between fatphobia and sexism. The modern American beauty ideal, for example, does promote something that could be called "thin privilege" and is imposed mostly on women. If you aren't thin enough as a woman, then you aren't "attractive" according to bourgeois standards, and therefore not "worthy". I would consider it another way to oppress women.

So I don't think that we should try to justify the discrimination of fat people.

Of course, this doesn't mean that I'm not for health education. I am all for that.

[The Feral Underclass]

How the fuck is health a cultural attitude? This is bullshit. It's not a standard model, it's not something to 'judge' humans against, i'd have just thought it'd be a fairly non-controversial point that being healthy is better than being unhealthy, with very overweight/obese people being a corollary of the latter.

All you have to do is open a magazine and turn on a television or watch an advert to see that "health" has become part of a cultural attitude and a standard by which people are judged.

I don't know where you come from, so perhaps it's different from here in Britain, but I mean, it's just everywhere and all the time.


Why would it be bad for people to conform to health?

Hmm, I didn't really say it was bad for people to do it. It's fine for people to conform to the standard of health (that you said didn't exist above) if that's what they want to do. It's not okay to stigmatise or persecute those that don't.


Why is it bad for good health to be a social norm?

Because it stigmatises people who don't care about or want to be healthy.


This is individualist bullshit you're projecting here and it has no basis in reality aside from 'leave me alone, let me do what I want'.

It seems to me that you're saying that someone's body belongs to society and that people shouldn't be left alone and allowed to do what they want with their body if they want to.

If you're not saying that, then what is your problem with taking an individualist position to your body and telling people to leave you alone and let you do what you want with it?

I can't really see how you can make a contrary argument.


Whilst there is always an element of that in any societal choice (which is why people shouldn't, of course, be 'forced' into doing something), there is also an element of what is good for society; a society of healthy people undoubtedly provides far greater benefits for individuals and the entire group than a society of unhealthy people. That is just common sense, i'd have thought?

What is health? Who determines what health is or how it is "good for society"?

You argued above that there was no standard model of health, but now you are arguing that there is a standard of health that is "good for society."

Someone's body is their own business. It's not the business of you or of society to determine what someone should do with their body, irrespective of what you or society thinks.

Do you want to say otherwise?


And my individual belief is that anybody who, having the privilege of having a living standard that allows them potential good health without too much effort, and chooses bad health, is an idiot.

But herein lies the prejudice.

From where have you formed the basis that choosing health is the best option? Is it some existential fear of death or something? Do you have some kind of eugenicist ambitions?

Let me explain this to you: You have no agency over someone elses body. Do you understand that? On that basis, why do you think you are entitled to pass judgement on the choices someone makes?

If a woman is able to keep a child without any effort and have the potential to raise a happy child and live in a secure and productive family are they an idiot to abort their pregnancy?


Not everybody has the privilege of being able to be healthy, those who abuse that are really fucking idiots in my book. I'm not gonna sit around and say 'yeah you look great gorging on shit food, sitting like a couch potato smoking your life away' just so I don't hurt someone's feelings. Why should I?

Why would you have an opinion about someone else's body appearances and choices I think is the most important issue here?


I would say we are headed towards that direction, given trends over recent decades, where most adults will be overweight pretty soon.

There's no need for this obesity epidemic hysteria (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/18/obesity-epidemic-hysteria)

Obesity 'epidemic': Who are you calling fat? (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/obesity-epidemic-who-are-you-calling-fat-397647.html)

Obesity: Epidemic or Myth? (http://www.csicop.org/si/show/obesity_epidemic_or_myth/)


I was talking about 'making a joke', not fucking persecution.

For a start this isn't all about you or what you are saying, it's about the situation generally and the way that overweight people are treated in society by people like you.

You are the one who thinks that society would be better without overweight or unhealthy people, you are the one that thinks people who make choices with their bodies are idiots.


Good for them. Nobody is saying they shouldn't. That's not really the point here.

It is the point. You said that there was no up upside to obesity, I have provided you with at least one.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The fat acceptance stuff raises some tricky issues. Learning to love who you are is one thing, tricking yourself into thinking that being morbidly obese is perfectly healthy and trying to convince others of that is something that is pretty fucking irresponsible. It seems similar to the anti-vaccination movement in that its a really dangerous form of coping. Not saying everyone is doing this, its just something I've observed. Thin privilege seems like something that obviously exists though.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think the media's role in this should be emphasised. When the headlines are constantly screaming about an "obesity epidemic", is it really any wonder that people feel justified in attacking and verbally abusing others they see as "fat"? After all, those fatties have no self-control, they're ruining the planet, they're a drain on the public purse, and so on and on and on.

Speaking as someone who's as skinny as a rake, with ribs showing and everything, I must say that I have never experienced any bullying or even any significant teasing on account of my lean frame, although the thinness accentuates my above-average height for which I have been ribbed. Indeed, some have even expressed being somewhat envious of my seeming ability to remain so thin.

On the other hand, even the slightly pudgy are at risk of vicious bullying from those looking for more acceptable targets. What better target than someone who's reason for being bullied is "obviously" self-inflicted?

[Prof. Oblivion]

There's no need for this obesity epidemic hysteria (http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/feb/18/obesity-epidemic-hysteria)

Obesity 'epidemic': Who are you calling fat? (http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/health-and-families/health-news/obesity-epidemic-who-are-you-calling-fat-397647.html)

Obesity: Epidemic or Myth? (http://www.csicop.org/si/show/obesity_epidemic_or_myth/)



For a start this isn't all about you or what you are saying, it's about the situation generally and the way that overweight people are treated in society by people like you.

You are the one who thinks that society would be better without overweight or unhealthy people, you are the one that thinks people who make choices with their bodies are idiots.

It is the point. You said that there was no up upside to obesity, I have provided you with at least one.

Lol, well in the first article the author asserts that "fat people can stay healthy" while...not supporting the argument at all. The second article has some valid points, such as for example that "good" and "bad" food doesn't exist, though it is generally completely wrong.

The fact is that obese people are at higher risk for high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, etc.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Honestly I can't see how it wouldn't be anyone else's business but the individual's in question, in terms of their desire (or lack thereof) to be healthy. They're essentially a drain on society's collectivized resources through their own conscious actions, unless we're already living in post-scarcity, so...

Although one could very easily argue against this from an individualist perspective. There's no such thing as "thin privilege", though, lest I find I'm privileged in yet another way...as if being a heterosexual white male wasn't enough! *sigh*

[Ele'ill]

i don't think fat or thin people should be made fun of because eating disorders are a serious thing and maybe just not making fun of people at all would be a good idea since maybe a lot of things we notice about one another are related to deeper psychological issues beyond the control of the individual

*I also don't want to believe that this thread is actually happening on revleft of all places with some of the responses and thanks that I'm seeing

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Honestly I can't see how it wouldn't be anyone else's business but the individual's in question, in terms of their desire (or lack thereof) to be healthy. They're essentially a drain on society's collectivized resources through their own conscious actions, unless we're already living in post-scarcity, so...

We certainly are in terms of food production, even if the nature of the global economic system doesn't make that readily apparent.

As for for being a drain on the other collective resources of society, I'd say that the negative effects of budget cuts and privatisation do more to fuck with the healthcare provision than fat people do. I think an argument could be made that there is some element of "divide and rule" about the established media's intense focus on the issue of obesity, especially since the advent of the on-going global economic farce.

[The Feral Underclass]

Lol, well in the first article the author asserts that "fat people can stay healthy" while...not supporting the argument at all. The second article has some valid points, such as for example that "good" and "bad" food doesn't exist, though it is generally completely wrong.

The purpose of the articles were to provide evidence against the assertion that obesity was becoming an epidemic, as suggested by The Boss...

[Os Cangaceiros]

We certainly are in terms of food production, even if the nature of the global economic system doesn't make that readily apparent.

As for for being a drain on the other collective resources of society, I'd say that the negative effects of budget cuts and privatisation do more to fuck with the healthcare provision than fat people do. I think an argument could be made that there is some element of "divide and rule" about the established media's intense focus on the issue of obesity, especially since the advent of the on-going global economic farce.

Yeah I agree with that, in regards to the food thing (and have argued as such against food Malthusians on this board, LOL), but I was actually thinking more along the lines of healthcare and such. And I definitely also agree about the privatization thing, but my point was more that some people seem to want to argue for the "right to be fat" from a standpoint that isn't "communistic", as communist policies have always prided themselves on their..."utilitarianism". It's kind of inconsistent. But that's OK because I myself am inconsistent about this, and I don't really like utilitarianism taken to it's farthest point...

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Yeah I agree with that, in regards to the food thing (and have argued as such against food Malthusians on this board, LOL), but I was actually thinking more along the lines of healthcare and such. And I definitely also agree about the privatization thing, but my point was more that some people seem to want to argue for the "right to be fat" from a standpoint that isn't "communistic", as communist policies have always prided themselves on their..."utilitarianism". It's kind of inconsistent. But that's OK because I myself am inconsistent about this, and I don't really like utilitarianism taken to it's farthest point...

I think utilitarianism is one of those things which should be tempered by something along the lines of the Golden Rule - to use this topic as an example, while I recognise that obesity does in fact impact negatively on both personal and public health, I also recognise that if I were myself obese, I would not for one instant enjoy any of the condescension and abuse that would be levelled at me in consequence.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

The fat acceptance stuff raises some tricky issues. Learning to love who you are is one thing, tricking yourself into thinking that being morbidly obese is perfectly healthy and trying to convince others of that is something that is pretty fucking irresponsible. .

"Fat acceptance" as a concept seems absurd, but no more so than the entire idea of "learning 2 luv urself", which is just downright daft. Fuck that shit.

However, I do not think that any person who is morbidly obese would ever fancy that it is perfectly healthy; even in the most ardent denial, the consequences to their mobility would be such that it could simply not be ignored. And then the issue of the medial image-- people around them; seeing wild folks frolic in the garden pastures outside, and yet, there, in the dark, gloomy room from which he/she cannot escape, half-covered in food-wrappings and having to rely on their son/daughter/relatives to get up, I'm sure that, somehow, they don't know that they are fat.

And no one will know why someone is obese. Like many things it's not just a question of someone "chosing" to be fat. They might overeat for a myriad or reasons, or they might have a disease that makes them overweight; materialism, anyone? Most obesity won't grow in a vacuum.

When I went to school there was a really fat kid who used to get on the bus now and then. He was really, really round to the point where it was really sad to see. Turned out that he had some sort of terrible birth defect that had affected his kidneys, requiring transplant and then treatment with heavy medication and cortisone, and due to this treatment he had swelled up something huge. Sometime later he had to have a second kidney transplant but I heard his body rejected it and he eventually died. Terrible story.

[Os Cangaceiros]

And no one will know why someone is obese. Like many things it's not just a question of someone "chosing" to be fat. They might overeat for a myriad or reasons, or they might have a disease that makes them overweight; materialism, anyone? Most obesity won't grow in a vacuum.

Most people are fat because of the volume & type of food they choose to consume. It is true though that there are certain medical conditions where one can say that an individual's weight is beyond their control, even with a lot of effort towards that effect. Being fat or not is (usually) pretty much the result of choices, though. That's not to say that said choices develop in a vacuum or whatever, or even that they're entirely within the individual's control.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

"Fat acceptance" as a concept seems absurd, but no more so than the entire idea of "learning 2 luv urself", which is just downright daft. Fuck that shit.

However, I do not think that any person who is morbidly obese would ever fancy that it is perfectly healthy; even in the most ardent denial, the consequences to their mobility would be such that it could simply not be ignored. And then the issue of the medial image-- people around them; seeing wild folks frolic in the garden pastures outside, and yet, there, in the dark, gloomy room from which he/she cannot escape, half-covered in food-wrappings and having to rely on their son/daughter/relatives to get up, I'm sure that, somehow, they don't know that they are fat.

And no one will know why someone is obese. Like many things it's not just a question of someone "chosing" to be fat. They might overeat for a myriad or reasons, or they might have a disease that makes them overweight; materialism, anyone? Most obesity won't grow in a vacuum.

When I went to school there was a really fat kid who used to get on the bus now and then. He was really, really round to the point where it was really sad to see. Turned out that he had some sort of terrible birth defect that had affected his kidneys, requiring transplant and then treatment with heavy medication and cortisone, and due to this treatment he had swelled up something huge. Sometime later he had to have a second kidney transplant but I heard his body rejected it and he eventually died. Terrible story.

No there really are fat acceptance people who believe that obesity is not unhealthy, the anarchist tension already posted some articles with that nonsense. Learning to love yourself outside of the scope provided by the media is a pretty normal notion, I'm not sure what the rest of your post is about.

[Zealot]

Now that I think about it, I would probably agree that thin privilege is actually a thing. Fat people are probably discriminated against in many ways despite what they might be capable of.

[Yuppie Grinder]

Comparing the treatment of fat people to plight of blacks or queers is disgusting. There is a difference between having avoidable health problems and being treated cruelly for it, and meaningful systemic bigotry. We shouldn't act as if there is nothing self-destructive about obesity in the name of tolerance.

[Philosophos]

OK I used to be more than a 100kg and I was short. One summer I lost all my weight (out of the sudden). I checked it in case it was some disease but nothing. Anyway my point is that people who make fun of fat people are assholes and they should be executed (call me extreme but I don't care).

BUT what really makes me angry is seeing people feeling bad for fat people... Because they are sooooo goooood and kind hearted... Go fuck yourselves I never needed someone's help and neether do now, unless I ask about it.

Don't treat fat people as they are different or special just like you do with gay, disabled and the rest of the PEOPLE.... In case you forget we are ALL PEOPLE....

[The Feral Underclass]

Comparing the plight of fat people to flight of blacks or queers is disgusting. There is a difference between having avoidable health problems and being treated cruelly for it, and meaningful systemic bigotry. We shouldn't act as if there is nothing self-destructive about obesity in the name of tolerance.

What about Transvestites? Their identity is a choice. They don't have to dress like the opposite sex. What about having an abortion? Women don't have to terminate their pregnancies.

I'm gay and I don't find the comparison disgusting at all. They are obviously different, but there are also very clear similarities when it comes to the idea of the body and of agency and of "moral" rights and wrongs.

People seem to have a tendency to uphold certain identity struggles as being sacred in comparison to other identity issues, as if it were some kind of competition about which i the most horrible to experience.

All identity prejudice is horrible and it is all experienced by the victim in the same way i.e. loss of agency etc, all for very similar reasons.

[Prof. Oblivion]

What about Transvestites? Their identity is a choice. They don't have to dress like the opposite sex. What about having an abortion? Women don't have to terminate their pregnancies.

I'm gay and I don't find the comparison disgusting at all. They are obviously different, but there are also very clear similarities when it comes to the idea of the body and of agency and of "moral" rights and wrongs.

People seem to have a tendency to uphold certain identity struggles as being sacred in comparison to other identity issues, as if it were some kind of competition about which i the most horrible to experience.

All identity prejudice is horrible and it is all experienced by the victim in the same way i.e. loss of agency etc, all for very similar reasons.

Surely there is no such thing as psychological problems, then, as recognition of such would be tantamount to unacceptance of one's own identity.

Not that I'm calling anything you quoted a psychological problem but rather am questioning the entire basis for your argument, specifically regarding your argument about "health".

[The Feral Underclass]

Surely there is no such thing as psychological problems, then, as recognition of such would be tantamount to unacceptance of one's own identity.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

[#FF0000]

I think the media's role in this should be emphasised. When the headlines are constantly screaming about an "obesity epidemic", is it really any wonder that people feel justified in attacking and verbally abusing others they see as "fat"? After all, those fatties have no self-control, they're ruining the planet, they're a drain on the public purse, and so on and on and on

I think that's kind of the opposite of what the whole "obesity epidemic" talk does, I think. The point of that is to treat it like a medical issue rather than something that's a "choice".


Most people are fat because of the volume & type of food they choose to consume. It is true though that there are certain medical conditions where one can say that an individual's weight is beyond their control, even with a lot of effort towards that effect. Being fat or not is (usually) pretty much the result of choices, though. That's not to say that said choices develop in a vacuum or whatever, or even that they're entirely within the individual's control.

I don't think it's fair to say "it's a choice" as if it's something someone can say "yeah" to once and then be fat. It's a result of (usually) a lifetime of bad habits learned and well-worn since childhood.

I dunno. I don't care about this whole hella militant "THIN PRIVILEGE" talk. I think it's a good thing that people are saying it's not cool to hate on fat people or whatever, though.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I think that's kind of the opposite of what the whole "obesity epidemic" talk does, I think. The point of that is to treat it like a medical issue rather than something that's a "choice".

Unfortunately people have a long history of bullying or victimising people for having medical conditions, so I don't think that usage of medical terminology does anything either way. Things like how the story is presented also matter, as well as wider considerations such as how fat people are typically depicted in fiction (one stereotype being an obsession with food, for example), etc.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Most people are fat because of the volume & type of food they choose to consume. It is true though that there are certain medical conditions where one can say that an individual's weight is beyond their control, even with a lot of effort towards that effect. Being fat or not is (usually) pretty much the result of choices, though. That's not to say that said choices develop in a vacuum or whatever, or even that they're entirely within the individual's control.

While I don't believe in free will or anything such, it's obvious that there are reasons for people overeating which can be manifold, and what can or can't be done will vary. And those choices are made for some reason, are they not? These people don't just sit up one day and think, "I want to be so bloody fat I can't get out of my bed."

So maybe having a little bit of chocolate is the only thing I have to look forward to every day, and everything else is pitch-black horror. So maybe I happened to be graced by terrible genes that make me fat though I consume less than 1800 calories a day, and maybe I was plagued by a deep-seated resentment towards most people and a pathological shyness and social awkwardness and fear and repugnance at the idea of being seen by others that I do not go outside and move much. So maybe there's something wrong with the way my brain perceives the consistency of certain food products and tastes so that I cannot eat most food without dry-heaving, unable to finish more than a pitiful mouthful, so I have to subsist on Noxion-style diet of noodles and pasta with carbonara and amateur meat-sauce. So maybe there in spite of everything I still sit and weigh 107, and at 193 cm tall that's still a good way overweight, but what can you do; purge?

[Raúl Duke]

Eh, I don't know how to feel about the subject per se.

The only thing I noted is that "body acceptance" thing, while it may be a legitimate thing, kinda seems (to me) to be treated as a fad. I see people talk about it but I always feel that some people who claim to be all into it (particularly thin people) to not really be genuine.

On the other side, I always get the impression that some overweight people who are into this discourse seem a bit too overtly focus on it, emphasizing it, like a mantra. It kinda appears to me that they're still insecure about their bodies and use his discourse to rationalize and deny that insecurity.

As an overweight person, I never bought into it but than again the issue of my weight is also an element to my self-loathing.

The terminology used by this discourse is silly and (apparently) leads to all sorts of ridiculous comparisons (as mentioned by others).

Nevertheless, it's rather really obvious that the mainstream cultural discourse (in the West) has a negative issue/preoccupation with weight.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I took an overdose of pills when I was 12 years old. Being mercilessly teased and bullied for being overweight was part of the reason why.

[Prof. Oblivion]

I took an overdose of pills when I was 12 years old. Being mercilessly teased and bullied for being overweight was part of the reason why.

This isn't about bullying.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

This isn't about bullying.
Actually, at least one person in this thread posted that it's sometimes acceptable to make fun of overweight people. I don't think the way that overweight people are treated can be divorced from the topic at hand.

[slum]

just curious if anyone here is interested in the relationship between poverty, healthcare and obesity in western nations, or if yall just wanna keep shitting all over the working class in favor of your individualist 'personal responsibility' bullshit

this forum, seriously

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

"Let Them Eat Junk: How Capitalism Creates Hunger and Obesity" by Robert Allbritton is a good read, even if his proposed solutions are on the reformist side.

[Comrade Nasser]

That's so fucked up to make fun of someone over the weight they're carrying. Whenever I see someone getting bullied for their weight (or ANYTHING for that matter), I freaking pounce on the perpetrator verbally. Usually just standing up gets them to back off, but if they are really persistent i've gotten into physical fights with people who would just not lay off it. I hate seeing that happen and I hate when people don't do anything about it, it's sad really.

[VDS]

I don't agree with bullying, but some of this is going too far. Pretty soon phrases like "fucking idiot" will be "discriminating against those with a lower capacity for reasoning" and it'll be "bullying them for the choices they've made to be intellectually lagging"

I have fat friends. I call them fat. They call me a skinny twig. We love each other.

Let me make it clear, BULLYING is another thing completely and it' fucking STUPID to assume it's only fat kids who get bullied, when in my experience, the overweight kids were the ones DOING the bullying to the other children who were skinnier like me. Because of our small frames we're subject to more bullying since we seem like easy targets. Should we address that?

And "thin privilege" as a male is shit. Maybe as a female I can see it. But as a male we're ridiculed for how skinny and at times "feminine" our bodies might be.

Truth is, if there's something that can be picked on, IT WILL BE PICKED ON. Being fat or being skinny is in NO way the same thing as being persecuted as blacks, gays, transgenders, and so on.

[Beeth]

People who joke about overweight people are assholes.

People who joke about people are assholes, period.

[Os Cangaceiros]

While I don't believe in free will or anything such, it's obvious that there are reasons for people overeating which can be manifold, and what can or can't be done will vary. And those choices are made for some reason, are they not? These people don't just sit up one day and think, "I want to be so bloody fat I can't get out of my bed."

So maybe having a little bit of chocolate is the only thing I have to look forward to every day, and everything else is pitch-black horror. So maybe I happened to be graced by terrible genes that make me fat though I consume less than 1800 calories a day, and maybe I was plagued by a deep-seated resentment towards most people and a pathological shyness and social awkwardness and fear and repugnance at the idea of being seen by others that I do not go outside and move much. So maybe there's something wrong with the way my brain perceives the consistency of certain food products and tastes so that I cannot eat most food without dry-heaving, unable to finish more than a pitiful mouthful, so I have to subsist on Noxion-style diet of noodles and pasta with carbonara and amateur meat-sauce. So maybe there in spite of everything I still sit and weigh 107, and at 193 cm tall that's still a good way overweight, but what can you do; purge?

Yes, all of those things can and are factors as to why people overeat. I'm not comfortable taking the narrative all the way to it's farthest conclusion, though, because I think that's very disempowering for people. People find it in themselves to abandon their self-destructive crutches all the time, including binge eating. I've been forced to (I never was a binger, but I liked the filling fat and sodium of unhealthy food). I can't eat like I used to anymore, and it sucks...if I could go back to being able to eat like I used to, I'd do it in a heartbeat. Unhealthy eating in my experience is more addictive than drugs or cigarettes, and it has the benefit of being completely socially acceptable (that's not to say that making fun of fat people is something I endorse or anything remotely like that...I'd just prefer if people thought about food differently than "hmm, what can I stuff in my face real quick to keep the motors running?" I'd like it if this were to come about via education (and a dramatic shift in how we view work, of course) and not government edict (http://www.myfoxny.com/story/18774940/health-panel-talks-about-wider-food-ban), though.

[Comrade #138672]

Anti-fat bias leads individuals to label obese members of society with negative personality traits such as "lazy", "greedy", "stupid", "smelly", "slow", or "unmotivated." This bias is not restricted only to clinically obese individuals, but also encompasses those whose body shape is in some way found unacceptable (although still within the normal or overweight BMI range).[1]Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-fat_bias


I don't agree with bullying, but some of this is going too far. Pretty soon phrases like "fucking idiot" will be "discriminating against those with a lower capacity for reasoning" and it'll be "bullying them for the choices they've made to be intellectually lagging"Of course, because it is indeed another form of discrimination.

It doesn't make people less "intellectually lagging" by calling them "fucking idiot". All you are doing then is trying to make people shut up or give in by making them feel intellecually inferior.


I have fat friends. I call them fat. They call me a skinny twig. We love each other.

Let me make it clear, BULLYING is another thing completely and it' fucking STUPID to assume it's only fat kids who get bullied, when in my experience, the overweight kids were the ones DOING the bullying to the other children who were skinnier like me. Because of our small frames we're subject to more bullying since we seem like easy targets. Should we address that?

And "thin privilege" as a male is shit. Maybe as a female I can see it. But as a male we're ridiculed for how skinny and at times "feminine" our bodies might be.

Truth is, if there's something that can be picked on, IT WILL BE PICKED ON. Being fat or being skinny is in NO way the same thing as being persecuted as blacks, gays, transgenders, and so on.I don't think anybody is saying that it is actually the same thing. Anyway, that doesn't mean that we should we pick on people for being fat...

[Quail]

I don't know to what extent being thin does make a person privileged in society, but I think in some ways it can be seen as a corollary of patriarchy and the beauty standards people are expected to adhere to. I think the arguments for maintaining a weight within a certain range for health reasons are valid, but I don't think that the way overweight people are seen and treated is really anything to do with the health side of things.

Also, as many people have pointed out, the reasons why a person is overweight are complex and take place within our society. There may be medical reasons why someone is overweight, or psychological reasons. Binge-eating is addictive and makes people feel better. There are a lot of things in a capitalist society which make people unhappy, and therefore more susceptible to binge-eating, which would disproportionately affect the poor and marginalised groups. There's also the point to be made that in some places especially, there is a link between poverty and obesity (I watched a documentary about this a while ago). It's not that poor people are too lazy or stupid to cook decent food, but that junk food can be significantly cheaper than healthy food. Placing all the blame on the individual for their "choice" to eat unhealthy food and be overweight ignores the wider context.

[l'Enfermé]

Isn't it "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs", and not "From each according to his ability, to each until they grow a few more chins"? Over-eating is not a need, it's a luxury, and a luxury which is quite harmful to society(one would expect socialists to care about society more than anything else, no?).

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

The purpose of the articles were to provide evidence against the assertion that obesity was becoming an epidemic, as suggested by The Boss...

I'm not sure those articles really support your point as you wish.

The Guardian article, correctly, points out that ridicule and persecution (which, as I said earlier, I do not support, and I may add that I was once rather large and ridiculed for it, and it was not a nice experience, and I would never support saying that shit is okay), are the wrong way to go about promoting better health, along with gastric band surgery and prodding by doctors/nurses at every opportunity. Of course, promoting a positive body image, and educating people about the benefits of regular exercise and good nutrition are far better ways of tackling issues related to obesity.

But herein lies the problem. The link you posted 'Obesity: Epidemic or Myth' really is mis-leading. Its first point is that studies have found that obesity isn't the underlying cause of a greater chance of death, but that poor nutrition and lack of exercise are. This is essentially using statistical mumble jumble to excuse obesity on the basis of collinearity - of course in any such study the phenomenon of collinearity (i.e. multiple underlying factors, flawed methodology) can be used to excuse almost any factor from blame as an underlying cause. I've seen it done many a time. The second issue is that it criticises statistical analyses based on BMI for conflating the 'overweight' and 'obese' categories. Correct. Many people with a BMI that would consider them overweight or obese may be absolute models of physical perfection, because BMI doesn't take account of body shape. Conversely, people with a 'normal' BMI may never exercise, not eat properly and be walking to an early grave. But that still doesn't excuse genuine obesity: i.e. those who both have an extremely high body fat percentage and a high Body Mass Index. You cannot merely perform statistical gymnastics to get away from a simple truth:

genuine obesity is an indicator of current or future poor health, negative social externalities via healthcare costs, lost working days and a generally lower ability to participate in daily life, and a possible eventual early death.

As was said above, body confidence is one thing and should be applauded, but we should not react a situation where we are blindly confident in something that we oughtn't not to be.

And i'm sorry if my previous position on 'persecution' wasn't clear enough; I abhor it. Rather, what I was talking about was that, whereas many of us find all sexist/misogynist, racist etc. jokes totally unacceptable, i'm really not sure that the same thing can be said here, as long as that joke is understood to be in decent faith and not made in a 'persecuting' nature.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

just curious if anyone here is interested in the relationship between poverty, healthcare and obesity in western nations, or if yall just wanna keep shitting all over the working class in favor of your individualist 'personal responsibility' bullshit

this forum, seriously

Capitalism, for all its shit, still provides the overwhelming majority - even the poorer ones - of people in the richer nations with access to relatively healthy food. Of course, it has become a trend for shit like fresh meat, fresh fruit etc., to become increasingly expensive but, let's be honest here, there is certainly an element (not the whole puzzle before you become hysterical as I agree with you about the strong link between poverty and bad health) of laziness in people who live off of fast food.

I generally spend around £20 per week on food currently, I tend to be able to buy relatively healthily.

[Art Vandelay]

i don't think fat or thin people should be made fun of because eating disorders are a serious thing and maybe just not making fun of people at all would be a good idea since maybe a lot of things we notice about one another are related to deeper psychological issues beyond the control of the individual

*I also don't want to believe that this thread is actually happening on revleft of all places with some of the responses and thanks that I'm seeing

This, some of the posts in this thread are sickening; let alone the fact that while masquerading behind some sort of societal and altruistic argument, they're really just repeating the right wing individualist mantra of 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps.' My dad could probably be considered obese and based off what I've seen, he's probably got more brain cells working in his head then the people calling him an 'idiot' for his weight.

[Art Vandelay]

I generally spend around £20 per week on food currently, I tend to be able to buy relatively healthily.

Good for you, perhaps for whatever its benefits, being healthy isn't what an individual is interested in. Perhaps one's conception of standard of living, doesn't include how long they can jog for and how long they'll live. Perhaps they just like food, I don't know, since I've always been skinny my whole life. What is ridiculous though is this air of superiority and pompousness you exude due to the fact you're in good shape.

[Ele'ill]

I would actually be interested in articles about access to healthy foods in cities (to move the direction of this conversation).

I don't know anything about this website but there's this, food deserts

http://www.policymic.com/articles/30301/9-cities-where-poor-people-lack-access-to-healthy-food


Public transportation plays a part in this too and I definitely relate to that. A lot of folks don't have cars myself included and when I was banned from the grocery store that I normally walk to it made getting fresh produce A LOT more difficult despite living in a city and a hippy hipster city at that (I hate it). All the farmer's markets and coop food is expensive (sometimes so much more expensive that from my perspective the store might as well not exist) and a good walking distance away and I don't always have bus money at certain points of the day/route/my daily routine when I'm out doing stuff. Everything takes longer sometimes hours longer.

[Dennis the 'Bloody Peasant']

This, some of the posts in this thread are sickening; let alone the fact that while masquerading behind some sort of societal and altruistic argument, they're really just repeating the right wing individualist mantra of 'pull yourself up by the bootstraps.' My dad could probably be considered obese and based off what I've seen, he's probably got more brain cells working in his head then the people calling him an 'idiot' for his weight.

This.
My wife is considered 'obese' so whenever people are mocked, criticised and judged for their weight (on either end of the spectrum), it gets my back up.
An individual is free to eat and / or exercise as much or as little as they please. It's never a bad thing to promote healthy activities and foods and make them for accessible / affordable, but whatever the cause of someone's 'extreme' weight / BMI / whatever, it does not justify ridicule and discrimination.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

Capitalism, for all its shit, still provides the overwhelming majority - even the poorer ones - of people in the richer nations with access to relatively healthy food. Of course, it has become a trend for shit like fresh meat, fresh fruit etc., to become increasingly expensive but, let's be honest here, there is certainly an element (not the whole puzzle before you become hysterical as I agree with you about the strong link between poverty and bad health) of laziness in people who live off of fast food.
Has it ever occurred to you that those people who live off of fast food may not have time to cook? This has almost been the case in my own life recently, and while I'm not proud of eating it, it would be ridiculous to assert that I am "lazy" because my work keeps me perpetually busy.


I generally spend around £20 per week on food currently, I tend to be able to buy relatively healthily.
Cool story.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Christ. I can see i'm getting slaughtered here, and it's ridiculous.

I'm trying to make the basic point that, objectively, good health is better than bad health. Yes, nobody should be forced to be healthy and no, being unhealthy doesn't mean someone should be persecuted, it doesn't mean they're an idiot, stupid, a worse person or whatever.

But c'mon, behind all this faux outrage some of you are pulling off very well, can we not accept the premise that it is better, all things being even (which, obviously, they are not), to be healthy rather than unhealthy?

Agreeing with that above statement doesn't sign you up to some secret society that wants to force people to be healthy or whatever, it's just recognition that good health is, well, good.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

[QUOTE=MEGAMANTROTSKY;2608533]Has it ever occurred to you that those people who live off of fast food may not have time to cook? This has almost been the case in my own life recently, and while I'm not proud of eating it, it would be ridiculous to assert that I am "lazy" because my work keeps me perpetually busy.

Yes. That's a perfectly valid thing, and as mariel says above, access to nutritious food is a problem, and one of the factors is bad access to transportation, which sorta feeds into the time argument.

I think everyone goes through periods where they don't have time to eat properly. I've done this numerous times and continue to do so. But let's be honest. Shit like cereal, pasta, grilled meats, rice, green veg (and obv raw shit like milk, yoghurt, fresh fruit) is not time consuming to make/eat really. So yeah, time is a factor, but i'm not sure how much it feeds into obesity in terms of being a direct causal factor.

[Ele'ill]

mental health is probably a big contributor I know I drop weight pretty fast/unhealthily. I think a lot of how our society functions contributes to mental health

[Comrade #138672]

Christ. I can see i'm getting slaughtered here, and it's ridiculous.

I'm trying to make the basic point that, objectively, good health is better than bad health. Yes, nobody should be forced to be healthy and no, being unhealthy doesn't mean someone should be persecuted, it doesn't mean they're an idiot, stupid, a worse person or whatever.

But c'mon, behind all this faux outrage some of you are pulling off very well, can we not accept the premise that it is better, all things being even (which, obviously, they are not), to be healthy rather than unhealthy?

Agreeing with that above statement doesn't sign you up to some secret society that wants to force people to be healthy or whatever, it's just recognition that good health is, well, good.Well, you may mean well, but it is just a bit strange to talk about health concerns, when it is about the discrimination of fat people, as if these two things were related somehow. I can see why people respond the way they do.

[MEGAMANTROTSKY]

Christ. I can see i'm getting slaughtered here, and it's ridiculous.

I'm trying to make the basic point that, objectively, good health is better than bad health. Yes, nobody should be forced to be healthy and no, being unhealthy doesn't mean someone should be persecuted, it doesn't mean they're an idiot, stupid, a worse person or whatever.

But c'mon, behind all this faux outrage some of you are pulling off very well, can we not accept the premise that it is better, all things being even (which, obviously, they are not), to be healthy rather than unhealthy?

Agreeing with that above statement doesn't sign you up to some secret society that wants to force people to be healthy or whatever, it's just recognition that good health is, well, good.
But this only raises the question: "Good" according to whom? What constitutes "good" in this context should not be taken as a monolithic scientific truth. Under capitalism, science should be criticized just as much as culture, because the institution itself is heavily vulnerable to class and cultural prejudices; indeed, it is mostly dominated by such, given its current sway toward biological reductionism. If it were otherwise, we would have little basis for positing the existence of "ruling ideas" at all. You seem to have been hoodwinked by the idea that the notion of "thin" is a marker of "good health", rather than try to question the underlying logic of such claims.

Obviously this view is not unique to you, or even to socialists in general. But I think the real problem here is that we may not apply Marxism, as a philosophical method, to ourselves quite enough. We are, after all, products of our own time and cannot completely leap out of our epoch. That is why, as Marxists we must push ourselves not only to engage the working class, but accept that being Marxists does not completely free us from bourgeois ideology.

[Art Vandelay]

Christ. I can see i'm getting slaughtered here, and it's ridiculous.

Yes and with good reason, lets see what you've posted so far, before you try and back pedal some more.

First we start off with Danielle Di Nighe making the following statement:


People who joke about overweight people are assholes.

To which you directly reply:


True, to an extent, and only sometimes.

So here we see that boss thinks that under certain circumstances it is okay to make fun of the overweight due to their body not being up to his health standards. What the circumstances are, I can't even begin wonder.


Conversely, fat people who don't recognise the negative social externalities they are causing by being fat are also assholes, and selfish ones at that.

So not only does it not make one an asshole, under certain circumstances to make fun of an overweight person, but in reverse people who are overweight and perhaps not educated enough on the effects this may have on society are 'selfish assholes.'


And my individual belief is that anybody who, having the privilege of having a living standard that allows them potential good health without too much effort, and chooses bad health, is an idiot. Not everybody has the privilege of being able to be healthy, those who abuse that are really fucking idiots in my book.

So now not only are these people 'assholes' and its okay to make fun of them in certain situations, they're also idiots cause they don't place the same importance on being healthy as the boss does. But where does he draw the line I wonder, I guess heroin addicts aren't 'healthy' are they? And plenty of them are fully within the means to get better, I guess we should discard the literary works of William S Burroughs then, since he was fairly well off and easily had the means to sober up, so he's just another 'idiot.'


I'm not gonna sit around and say 'yeah you look great gorging on shit food, sitting like a couch potato smoking your life away' just so I don't hurt someone's feelings. Why should I?

How about this? Keep your fucking mouth shut. The body weight of anyone else is none of your business, not sure why you'd even think this person would give two shits what you think about them. You don't have to tell them they look great when you don't think they do, just don't say anything. And why wouldn't you want to not hurt this persons feelings? Oh I don't know, maybe they already get enough shit from the world in general which spawns disgusting viewpoints like the ones you're espousing here and shoves pictures of 'beautiful skinny people' down their throat 24/7, constantly reminding them of the societal standards that they don't live up to.


Rather, what I was talking about was that, whereas many of us find all sexist/misogynist, racist etc. jokes totally unacceptable, i'm really not sure that the same thing can be said here, as long as that joke is understood to be in decent faith and not made in a 'persecuting' nature.

Or maybe we just shouldn't be making any jokes that we know are going to hurt someones feelings? I had a African-Canadian friend in high school who didn't mind people telling racist jokes around him, because he knew they were his friends and it wasn't done in a 'persecuting' nature, in reverse he made some as well; does this make it okay?


and no, being unhealthy doesn't mean someone should be persecuted, it doesn't mean they're an idiot, stupid, a worse person or whatever.

Ahh you're either back pedaling, or you just know what a crock of shit you posted on the first page and are trying to change your opinion now.


Shit like cereal, pasta, grilled meats, rice, green veg (and obv raw shit like milk, yoghurt, fresh fruit) is not time consuming to make/eat really. So yeah, time is a factor, but i'm not sure how much it feeds into obesity in terms of being a direct causal factor.


I generally spend around £20 per week on food currently, I tend to be able to buy relatively healthily.

So you pay lip service to the correlation between obesity and poverty, but in reality it remains nothing but that, lip service. You've made yourself quite clear that you're able to eat healthily and cheaply, in a non time consuming manner, thus reinforcing your opinion that the obese are just lazy. I must say it falls quite in line with your other smug and prejudicial views of the overweight.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

[QUOTE=9mm;2608553]

So here we see that boss thinks that under certain circumstances it is okay to make fun of the overweight due to their body not being up to his health standards. What the circumstances are, I can't even begin wonder.


I don't think I ever said my health standards. I said good health. There's a fairly easy difference to spot between someone in good health and somebody who is obese. And yes, 'making fun'. There is a qualitative difference between 'fun' and 'bullying'. The latter is never OK. My point was that, whereas if you're in a group and someone makes a racist/sexist joke, you'd instantly challenge them and think they're a complete asshole, if someone pokes fun at someone's weight, then i'm not sure the automatic response is, "'asshole!". Sometimes it may be, if they take it too far, but if it's good natured, then i'm not sure what the problem is.


So not only does it not make one an asshole, under certain circumstances to make fun of an overweight person, but in reverse people who are overweight and perhaps not educated enough on the effects this may have on society are 'selfish assholes.'

To an extent, yes. Like it or not, there is such a thing as society, and I have no sympathy for people who, for example, take up resources getting some sort of gastric band surgery because they've eaten too much for 30 years and not done any exercise. That is a somewhat selfish action!



So now not only are these people 'assholes' and its okay to make fun of them in certain situations, they're also idiots cause they don't place the same importance on being healthy as the boss does. But where does he draw the line I wonder, I guess heroin addicts aren't 'healthy' are they? And plenty of them are fully within the means to get better, I guess we should discard the literary works of William S Burroughs then, since he was fairly well off and easily had the means to sober up, so he's just another 'idiot.'

You're right, my use of the word idiot was wrong and I apologise for that.


How about this? Keep your fucking mouth shut. The body weight of anyone else is none of your business, not sure why you'd even think this person would give two shits what you think about them. You don't have to tell them they look great when you don't think they do, just don't say anything. And why wouldn't you want to not hurt this persons feelings? Oh I don't know, maybe they already get enough shit from the world in general which spawns disgusting viewpoints like the ones you're espousing here and shoves pictures of 'beautiful skinny people' down their throat 24/7, constantly reminding them of the societal standards that they don't live up to.


I never said it was my business. I said I don't think making jokes about someone's weight is necessarily the worst thing in the world. I also said that it is better to be healthy than unhealthy. Neither statement is hugely controversial.

And for the record, I don't buy all that 'beautiful skinny people' crap either, so stop trying to put me in that corner. I'm neither 'beautiful and skinny', and i'm not really attracted to airbrushed size zero types. That doesn't really change the fact that obesity is very likely to be an indicator of either current bad health or future bad health.


Or maybe we just shouldn't be making any jokes that we know are going to hurt someones feelings? I had a African-Canadian friend in high school who didn't mind people telling racist jokes around him, because he knew they were his friends and it wasn't done in a 'persecuting' nature, in reverse he made some as well; does this make it okay?

As I said before, it's different when it's shit to do with someone's race, sex, ethnicity, gender etc. Don't try and lump 'fatphobia' in the same boat as serious issues like racism etc.


So you pay lip service to the correlation between obesity and poverty, but in reality it remains nothing but that, lip service. You've made yourself quite clear that you're able to eat healthily and cheaply, in a non time consuming manner, thus reinforcing your opinion that the obese are just lazy. I must say it falls quite in line with your other smug and prejudicial views of the overweight.


It's not lip service, but we are all aware of the link between poverty and obesity due to various factors such as food prices and distance to market/transportation issues. There's no point having a discussion if we're all gonna sit here and have a circle jerk about how much we agree. I'm fairly sure we can all agree fully that poverty is a huge contributor to obesity.

I don't really see how i'm smug. I was once quite large myself, I don't have any hang ups about being some sort of Gerard Butler in 300 type.

As for being prejudiced, give me a fucking break. My points have been thus:

making jokes about someone being overweight are sometimes ok; it's a totally different situation to people making jokes about race, rape, sexism etc.

good health is better than bad health, obesity falling into the latter category.

I really don't see how the above two are so fucking controversial.

[Deity]

This is going to get me flamed, but I don't really care.

Are we honestly looking at overweight people as "oppressed"? I understand it's obviously wrong to be making personal attacks on somebody, but refraining from using any humor that could possibly offend somebody?

No sexual jokes because we may offend feminists
No lazy/fat jokes because we may offend the overweight
No Alabama jokes because we may offend rednecks
No Canadian jokes because we may offend Canadians
No TV jokes because we may offend someone who likes TV

I'm not a big fan of "Green-Light humor". Although personal attacks are messed up, making jokes that may offend someone who overhears the joke shouldn't be considered just further deepening the whole of these oppressed overweight people.

[Ele'ill]

This is going to get me flamed, but I don't really care.

Are we honestly looking at overweight people as "oppressed"? I understand it's obviously wrong to be making personal attacks on somebody, but refraining from using any humor that could possibly offend somebody?

What a concept.


No sexual jokes because we may offend feminists
No lazy/fat jokes because we may offend the overweight
No Alabama jokes because we may offend rednecks
No Canadian jokes because we may offend Canadians
No TV jokes because we may offend someone who likes TV

There is a huge difference between self deprecating humor that is done in a non-divisive/alienating manner and intentionally divisive, alienating, and hurtful humor that makes people feel really bad about themselves. Also some of your examples here are silly.




I'm not a big fan of "Green-Light humor". Although personal attacks are messed up, making jokes that may offend someone who overhears the joke shouldn't be considered just further deepening the whole of these oppressed overweight people.

A joke about someone is a personal attack and why would you want to make the joke to begin with unless you agree with it at least partially. It's like leftists hating racism cause they theoretically have to but engaging in it in every day life because it makes them feel good.

[Deity]

What a concept.



There is a huge difference between self deprecating humor that is done in a non-divisive/alienating manner and intentionally divisive, alienating, and hurtful humor that makes people feel really bad about themselves. Also some of your examples here are silly.

-I'm aware there is a difference, and the examples were supposed to be silly as a hyperbole




A joke about someone is a personal attack and why would you want to make the joke to begin with unless you agree with it at least partially. It's like leftists hating racism cause they theoretically have to but engaging in it in every day life because it makes them feel good.
A joke about something doesn't have to be a personal attack. Me and my buddies make fun of each other all the time, but we don't make it a personal thing as we shouldn't, as that's it; it's done in a fun/friendly manner then we all have a laugh and move on.

[Ele'ill]

A joke about something doesn't have to be a personal attack. Me and my buddies make fun of each other all the time, but we don't make it a personal thing as we shouldn't, as that's it; it's done in a fun/friendly manner then we all have a laugh and move on.

Why is it funny though

[Comrade #138672]

This is going to get me flamed, but I don't really care.

Are we honestly looking at overweight people as "oppressed"? I understand it's obviously wrong to be making personal attacks on somebody, but refraining from using any humor that could possibly offend somebody?

No sexual jokes because we may offend feminists
No lazy/fat jokes because we may offend the overweight
No Alabama jokes because we may offend rednecks
No Canadian jokes because we may offend Canadians
No TV jokes because we may offend someone who likes TV

I'm not a big fan of "Green-Light humor". Although personal attacks are messed up, making jokes that may offend someone who overhears the joke shouldn't be considered just further deepening the whole of these oppressed overweight people.Jokes don't have to be offensive or discriminating.

It isn't about "offending somebody", though. It is about dividing the working class.

[Art Vandelay]

I don't think I ever said my health standards. I said good health. There's a fairly easy difference to spot between someone in good health and somebody who is obese.

Except people who are skinny are not necessarily in good health. I've been skinny all my life and when people see me they probably assume that I'm a fairly active guy. Despite the fact that I eat pretty healthy, I don't exercise and smoke and drink, which probably makes me in about similar health to overweight people. Smoking will lead to an early grave just as quickly as being overweight will.


And yes, 'making fun'. There is a qualitative difference between 'fun' and 'bullying'. The latter is never OK. My point was that, whereas if you're in a group and someone makes a racist/sexist joke, you'd instantly challenge them and think they're a complete asshole, if someone pokes fun at someone's weight, then i'm not sure the automatic response is, "'asshole!". Sometimes it may be, if they take it too far, but if it's good natured, then i'm not sure what the problem is.

I don't know, if I was with a group of friends and one started making a joke to a person in the group about how they were fat, I'd probably consider them an asshole yes. Maybe if the person had made light of their weight first, it would be a different scenario, but its impossible to know how the person will react. To me it would be on par with joking about someones receding hair line, or looks.


To an extent, yes. Like it or not, there is such a thing as society, and I have no sympathy for people who, for example, take up resources getting some sort of gastric band surgery because they've eaten too much for 30 years and not done any exercise. That is a somewhat selfish action!

What about people who smoke and end up eating up healthcare services later in life? Or alcoholics who need liver transplants from drinking heavily for years? What about drug addicts who continually need detox programs and hospitalizations? What about people with mental health issues who take up valuable resources after failed suicide attempts? Or people with eating disorders who end up hospitalized for the very opposite reasons of those who are obese?


You're right, my use of the word idiot was wrong and I apologise for that.

Then what is your opinion of people, who despite having the means to eat healthy, choose not to?


I never said it was my business. I said I don't think making jokes about someone's weight is necessarily the worst thing in the world. I also said that it is better to be healthy than unhealthy. Neither statement is hugely controversial.

I don't think that anyone is trying to argue that it is better to be unhealthy. The reason I raised the point was because you made a comment along the lines of 'I'm not going to sit here and tell someone they look good while being a couch potato and stuffing themselves with junk food all day.' Couple comments like that with ones saying its okay to poke fun and it wouldn't surprise me if you're the type to make comments which could be hurtful, regardless of your intentions.


And for the record, I don't buy all that 'beautiful skinny people' crap either, so stop trying to put me in that corner.

I'm not trying to, I'm just saying that overweight people get bombarded with that crap enough, that the last thing they need is for regular people to join in to help add to the stigma of being overweight.


As I said before, it's different when it's shit to do with someone's race, sex, ethnicity, gender etc. Don't try and lump 'fatphobia' in the same boat as serious issues like racism etc.

I'm not, I think being overweight would be similar to the stigma associated with mental illness (albeit manifested in a different manner), that doesn't change the fact that as Marxists we should be attempting to break down this stigma, as opposed to reinforce it.


It's not lip service, but we are all aware of the link between poverty and obesity due to various factors such as food prices and distance to market/transportation issues. There's no point having a discussion if we're all gonna sit here and have a circle jerk about how much we agree. I'm fairly sure we can all agree fully that poverty is a huge contributor to obesity.

And yet, you've stated how its possible for you to eat healthy on the cheap and that people who just eat fast food are 'lazy.'


As for being prejudiced, give me a fucking break. My points have been thus:

making jokes about someone being overweight are sometimes ok; it's a totally different situation to people making jokes about race, rape, sexism etc.

good health is better than bad health, obesity falling into the latter category.

I really don't see how the above two are so fucking controversial.

What's been controversial is how you've characterized the overweight as 'lazy,' 'idiots' (which you've since recanted), 'selfish' and 'assholes.' I think its pretty clear that is where my animosity is stemming from here and also why I've accused you of being smug and pompous.

[#FF0000]

-I'm aware there is a difference, and the examples were supposed to be silly as a hyperbole

That kind of makes the examples useless, don't they?


A joke about something doesn't have to be a personal attack. Me and my buddies make fun of each other all the time, but we don't make it a personal thing as we shouldn't, as that's it; it's done in a fun/friendly manner then we all have a laugh and move on.

Context is important, obviously.

Either way I think it's pretty simple. No one should be harassed or abused because of their weight.

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

[QUOTE=9mm;2608582]Except people who are skinny are not necessarily in good health. I've been skinny all my life and when people see me they probably assume that I'm a fairly active guy. Despite the fact that I eat pretty healthy, I don't exercise and smoke and drink, which probably makes me in about similar health to overweight people. Smoking will lead to an early grave just as quickly as being overweight will.

My point wasn't that skinny = healthy, fat = unhealthy. Skinny people can be unhealthy, slightly overweight people can be healthy. But people who are very overweight/obese fall into the category of either 'currently unhealthy', or if not then will be unhealthy in the future. Of course you're right that skinny people can be unhealthy, but it's also right to say that, generally, obese people are not healthy, at least not for a particularly long time. I'm not saying they should be forced to be healthy, but just that the paradigm should be 'if one can be healthy, then they should be encouraged to make better choices re: exercise, nutrition, alcohol, drugs/smoking'.


I don't know, if I was with a group of friends and one started making a joke to a person in the group about how they were fat, I'd probably consider them an asshole yes. Maybe if the person had made light of their weight first, it would be a different scenario, but its impossible to know how the person will react. To me it would be on par with joking about someones receding hair line, or looks.

Like I said, it depends on the person. I'm not saying that going up to a random person and laughing at them for being fat, or bald, or for some other aesthetic thing, is alright. But, unlike 'jokes' about racism, sexism, homophobia etc., i'm not sure that making a weight-related joke is always bad. Only when it crosses a threshold into bullying.


What about people who smoke and end up eating up healthcare services later in life? Or alcoholics who need liver transplants from drinking heavily for years? What about drug addicts who continually need detox programs and hospitalizations? What about people with mental health issues who take up valuable resources after failed suicide attempts? Or people with eating disorders who end up hospitalized for the very opposite reasons of those who are obese?


Valid points, of course.


Then what is your opinion of people, who despite having the means to eat healthy, choose not to?

I guess it's more complicated than a soundbite. I mean, I do sympathise, i'm not the best eater myself despite having the means to. But i'm more talking about people who are really huge, which seems to me to be more and more people as time goes on.



I don't think that anyone is trying to argue that it is better to be unhealthy. The reason I raised the point was because you made a comment along the lines of 'I'm not going to sit here and tell someone they look good while being a couch potato and stuffing themselves with junk food all day.' Couple comments like that with ones saying its okay to poke fun and it wouldn't surprise me if you're the type to make comments which could be hurtful, regardless of your intentions.

I was being insensitive, granted, but my point was that we shouldn't pander to people's obesity and pretend that it's healthy to be 30 stone, or that it is something to aspire to, or settle on. I really think that, as a society, we should aspire to be more healthy. Of course, there are other issues such as access to food/food prices/poverty, mental health etc., but there is definitely an individual aspect to obesity too. It's not really me going the right-wing 'individual responsibility' route. Rather, we should as a society really promote better education so that people with less knowledge and/or understanding of the issues of health, exercise and nutrition can actually act to become more healthy.



I'm not, I think being overweight would be similar to the stigma associated with mental illness (albeit manifested in a different manner), that doesn't change the fact that as Marxists we should be attempting to break down this stigma, as opposed to reinforce it.

Agreed, but breaking down a stigma doesn't mean we can't be critical of the trend towards obesity. It's bad for individuals and bad for society. Pretending that obesity is ok won't get rid of the stigma.


And yet, you've stated how its possible for you to eat healthy on the cheap and that people who just eat fast food are 'lazy.'

I guess being someone who eats fresh food on the cheap and has shifted a few stone over the past few years, I probably have a lack of sympathy. Sorry.



What's been controversial is how you've characterized the overweight as 'lazy,' 'idiots' (which you've since recanted), 'selfish' and 'assholes.' I think its pretty clear that is where my animosity is stemming from here and also why I've accused you of being smug and pompous.

As I said, the laziness etc. elements are only partial elements. I wasn't laying 'blame', so to speak. But we can't just pretend that if there were no poverty then everyone would be models of health. There are issues of individuals, for whatever reason, making bad choices when it comes to health. I'm not talking about moderation like smoking weed occasionally, having a few beers or the odd pizza, i'm talking about people's lifestyle choices being to shun exercise and put away stupendous amounts of food.

[#FF0000]

Agreed, but breaking down a stigma doesn't mean we can't be critical of the trend towards obesity. It's bad for individuals and bad for society. Pretending that obesity is ok won't get rid of the stigma.


What does being "critical" mean in this context? And I don't think anyone here is about saying obesity is "okay" as in a healthy thing, but if the idea is to encourage people to lose weight then making people feel shitty about themselves and their bodies isn't the way to do that, at all. "Fat acceptance", I think, would actually lend it more towards those ends.

Plus I don't think the "OBESITY EPIDEMIC" is as much of a problem anymore. People are far more aware and conscious of health and diet issues, and that's reflected in the rates of childhood obesity starting to dip.

[Art Vandelay]

My point wasn't that skinny = healthy, fat = unhealthy. Skinny people can be unhealthy, slightly overweight people can be healthy. But people who are very overweight/obese fall into the category of either 'currently unhealthy', or if not then will be unhealthy in the future. Of course you're right that skinny people can be unhealthy, but it's also right to say that, generally, obese people are not healthy, at least not for a particularly long time. I'm not saying they should be forced to be healthy, but just that the paradigm should be 'if one can be healthy, then they should be encouraged to make better choices re: exercise, nutrition, alcohol, drugs/smoking'.

This I can agree with for the most part. We should definitely be encouraging people to lead as healthy of lifestyles as possible. That being said, what one person may consider constituting a higher standard of living, for others may not be true. For some being healthy may correlate to a higher standard of living, to me enjoying my smokes might be, to another their favorite comfort foods. While education is needed to ensure that all are aware of the risks involved, people shouldn't be chastised for their lifestyle choices.


Like I said, it depends on the person. I'm not saying that going up to a random person and laughing at them for being fat, or bald, or for some other aesthetic thing, is alright. But, unlike 'jokes' about racism, sexism, homophobia etc., i'm not sure that making a weight-related joke is always bad. Only when it crosses a threshold into bullying.

I think I can see what you've been meaning here and I was definitely misinterpreting. For example, among a close group of friends, I can see where some light hearted joking could be considered fine. I have a few friends really good friends who I wouldn't mind poking fun at me for whatever reason, that being said in a group of more mere casual acquaintances I'd probably be slightly embarrassed; then again I don't have the thickest skin in the world.


Valid points, of course.

I think these examples should be considered on par with the overweight to be honest.


I guess it's more complicated than a soundbite. I mean, I do sympathise, i'm not the best eater myself despite having the means to. But i'm more talking about people who are really huge, which seems to me to be more and more people as time goes on.

I don't deny the existence of a weight issues, I'm not sure about the U.K. and in Canada things aren't quite as bad, but in the U.S. for example the obesity rate is astonishing.


I was being insensitive, granted, but my point was that we shouldn't pander to people's obesity and pretend that it's healthy to be 30 stone, or that it is something to aspire to, or settle on. I really think that, as a society, we should aspire to be more healthy. Of course, there are other issues such as access to food/food prices/poverty, mental health etc., but there is definitely an individual aspect to obesity too. It's not really me going the right-wing 'individual responsibility' route. Rather, we should as a society really promote better education so that people with less knowledge and/or understanding of the issues of health, exercise and nutrition can actually act to become more healthy.

Agreed.


Agreed, but breaking down a stigma doesn't mean we can't be critical of the trend towards obesity. It's bad for individuals and bad for society. Pretending that obesity is ok won't get rid of the stigma.

True, but by reinforcing these negative stereo types, it helps to perpetuate the problem.


I guess being someone who eats fresh food on the cheap and has shifted a few stone over the past few years, I probably have a lack of sympathy. Sorry.

No need to be sorry, I can understand where you are coming from. When one has gained the self empowerment to make positive changes in their lives, they begin to realize that some of what was holding them back was simply their own mindset. For example I know I have the power to quit smoking, I'm addicted sure, but its completely possible. This however says nothing of the issues which leads one to smoke in the first place, similarly being able to eat healthy doesn't say much about the mindset of a person who needs to seek comfort through food.


As I said, the laziness etc. elements are only partial elements. I wasn't laying 'blame', so to speak. But we can't just pretend that if there were no poverty then everyone would be models of health. There are issues of individuals, for whatever reason, making bad choices when it comes to health. I'm not talking about moderation like smoking weed occasionally, having a few beers or the odd pizza, i'm talking about people's lifestyle choices being to shun exercise and put away stupendous amounts of food.

I think that it largely stems from mental health issues to be honest. No person needs to eat, drink, smoke, use drugs, to excess unless their uncomfortable in their own skin and need a means of escape.

[Art Vandelay]

What does being "critical" mean in this context? And I don't think anyone here is about saying obesity is "okay" as in a healthy thing, but if the idea is to encourage people to lose weight then making people feel shitty about themselves and their bodies isn't the way to do that, at all. "Fat acceptance", I think, would actually lend it more towards those ends.

'You can't raise a man up, by calling him down.' If anything these attitudes which make overweight people feel worse about themselves, probably help to perpetuate the problem. People with issues (whatever they are) need to learn to consider themselves worth the effort to improve, before they will begin taking the steps to make that a reality.

[Tenka]

As for ubiquitous obesity being "bad for society", I don't see how that could be except perhaps for negatively affecting the lifespan averages, if you care about those.

I for one feel no hurt when, for example, a new pricey MRI machine has to be manufactured and installed just for huge fatties. Rather, I am amused by stingy value-minded society having to accommodate.

[Prof. Oblivion]

[QUOTE]

Yes. That's a perfectly valid thing, and as mariel says above, access to nutritious food is a problem, and one of the factors is bad access to transportation, which sorta feeds into the time argument.

I think everyone goes through periods where they don't have time to eat properly. I've done this numerous times and continue to do so. But let's be honest. Shit like cereal, pasta, grilled meats, rice, green veg (and obv raw shit like milk, yoghurt, fresh fruit) is not time consuming to make/eat really. So yeah, time is a factor, but i'm not sure how much it feeds into obesity in terms of being a direct causal factor.

There's also a difference between eating properly and consuming adequate (i.e. not excessive) calories. You can eat McDonald's and take in maintenance or even a caloric deficit. The problem with that is either education or lack of caring. People might be too poor to eat "healthy" (a dubious generalization) but I think it comes down more to people simply not caring or knowing.

[Niall]

Christ. I can see i'm getting slaughtered here, and it's ridiculous.

I'm trying to make the basic point that, objectively, good health is better than bad health. Yes, nobody should be forced to be healthy and no, being unhealthy doesn't mean someone should be persecuted, it doesn't mean they're an idiot, stupid, a worse person or whatever.

But c'mon, behind all this faux outrage some of you are pulling off very well, can we not accept the premise that it is better, all things being even (which, obviously, they are not), to be healthy rather than unhealthy?

Agreeing with that above statement doesn't sign you up to some secret society that wants to force people to be healthy or whatever, it's just recognition that good health is, well, good.

Ia gree. Good health is better than bad health. Im not as healthy as I should be and Im a bit overweight, drink too much lemonade and eat too much shite. Thats my choice however and only I can unmake that choice. I dont think it is a societal thing

[MarxArchist]

Capitalism markets food stuff that sells and what sells is whatever has the biggest immediate gratification- high sugar, high sodium, high fat products which are also the cheapest (have you ever seen a commercial for broccoli?). This started with the shift in capitalism around the late 1940's early 1950's. About the time they started using focus groups, psychology and a more decentralized production process, as in, thousands upon thousands of different products tailored to peoples inner desires. As time passes this process expands- more sugar, more sodium, more fat, more caffeine and for less money. Some people would be overweight no matter what as obesity can be linked to genetics but the rise in obesity over the last 30 or 40 years in general is being pushed off as people eating too much while not being active enough which is partly true but you'll never see mainstream studies take the capitalism aspect into it. The capitalism of today is nothing like pre 1940/1950 capitalism. It started to change in the 1950's and has expanded every decade since the 1960's into a sort of hyper consumerist culture economy. It's all by design in order to maximize profits which is why we see, here in the Bay Area, some groups going after soda companies and such but it has simply ended up, as usual, going after workers via a "soda tax". I'm going to go blow my brains out now but first I need to finish this triple cheeseburger super sized lard fry chicken bucket. 7/11 will soon be selling syringes filled with grape flavored cholesterol. Straight into the vein with that one.

Take a read:

http://www.oaklandfood.org/home/about_us

http://cafoodjustice.org/

[Aleksandr Karelin]

If you are fat you either have a medical condition or you made yourself fat. I have been 200 pounds and 130 pounds. I do sports and yoyo my weight, I can reach 200 pounds and with willpower lose 70 pounds of it to get ready for competition.

If you don't want to be called fat, loose weight, eat below your BMR, eat non processed foods and take personal responsibility. I earn minimum wage. I can go and buy lots of vegetables, lean meat and fruit. There is no excuse.

I like to fuck around with my weight and if you are not scared of strech marks it is fun.

I have helped my mate go from 24 stone with no confidence to 18 stone, changing the composition and building over 25 pounds of lean body mass. He finally agreed to go in the gym after I called him a fat lazy prick for a year. He thanks me all the time for changing his life.

People are soft nowadays, if no one tells you you are fat and you need to get fit you will rarely change it around.

Saying that if someone is fine with being fat great. But I have never met a single person who is.

Key points for people who wnat to get in great shape.



Do olympic lifts, low repetition heavy sets. Track workouts and build steadily.

High intensity interval training, no LISS cardio putting you in a catabolic state.

Eat a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight.

Avoid grains and sugar.

Eat steak and eggs, higher cholesterol improves protein synthesis, improves testosterone and lowers estrogen.

No vegetable oils, olive or coconut only.

Drink only water and at least 4 litres a day.

Edit* never join a gym that does not have at least 3 squat racks, does not allow chalk or ask you to be quieter.

Also interesting fact, research has shown that a 20 minute ice bath post workout can lead to 50% higher fat loss in a four month period than regular baths. If one thing can help you the most for the least money and effort taking a daily ice bath is the one I would reccomend to supplement clean diet.

Only supplements worth taking are creatine Mono and a preworkout like DMAA.

[Fourth Internationalist]

If you don't want to be called fat, loose weight, eat below your BMR, eat non processed foods and take personal responsibility. I earn minimum wage. I can go and buy lots of vegetables, lean meat and fruit. There is no excuse.

Yes, because every poor person's situation is the same as yours. :rolleyes:

[Aleksandr Karelin]

http://https://www.facebook.com/ajax/messaging/attachment.php?attach_id=82bb9e566e7cc65c6cf1f9f47 f244bb7&mid=mid.1362770905686%3Ad2c8696a234e0b3734&hash=AQASCGKBXkpeZCoF

[Prof. Oblivion]

Yes, because every poor person's situation is the same as yours. :rolleyes:

Fat loss can be completed on any budget.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

Fat loss can be completed on any budget.

How dare you say people are not victims in every aspect of their life.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Fat loss can be completed on any budget.

No, it cannot.

[Art Vandelay]

How dare you say people are not victims in every aspect of their life.

Obvious trolls are quite annoying. Literally nothing anyone has said has been remotely 'people are victims in every aspect of life!' Marxists are just interested in actually understanding societal phenomena and analyzing the conditions which give rise to said phenomena, instead of just repeating the right wing personal responsibility mantra.

[Art Vandelay]

No, it cannot.

I'm honestly unsure whether or not it can be, while being aware of the extreme disadvantage the poor are when it comes to access to healthy food and income; but regardless framing the issue in this manner, completely misses the point.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

I'm honestly unsure whether or not it can be, while being aware of the extreme disadvantage the poor are when it comes to access to healthy food and income; but regardless framing the issue in this manner, completely misses the point.

I did it on welfare. How much poorer can you get. If I did it, I prove his theory wrong, because He does not believe what he is saying, he is just constantly hurling moronic one liners to disagree. Hench why I only see his posts when someone quotes him.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I'm honestly unsure whether or not it can be, while being aware of the extreme disadvantage the poor are when it comes to access to healthy food and income; but regardless framing the issue in this manner, completely misses the point.

Well, they could starve to death.

[Prof. Oblivion]

No, it cannot.

Yes it can. It solely involves eating less calories than one's maintenance level.


Well, they could starve to death.

So, you're arguing that it is impossible to lose weight, yet possible to starve????

[Fourth Internationalist]

I did it on welfare. How much poorer can you get. If I did it, I prove his theory wrong, because He does not believe what he is saying, he is just constantly hurling moronic one liners to disagree. Hench why I only see his posts when someone quotes him.

You can get much poorer than welfare. Also, 'if i can do it, why can't they' mentality is very flawed. That's the logic capitalists use to justify capitalism 'If i'm successful, why aren't they?'

[Art Vandelay]

I did it on welfare. How much poorer can you get. If I did it, I prove his theory wrong, because He does not believe what he is saying, he is just constantly hurling moronic one liners to disagree. Hench why I only see his posts when someone quotes him.

Uhh you do realize that there are countries without welfare right? Also, even in 1st world welfare states, there are people, for various reasons, who have a tough time getting on welfare.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

A fat person had excess fat stores, to maintain them they have to eat at or above their BMR.

Doing so is impossible by just eating lean protein, vegetables and fruit.

For example a 170 pound males will have a BMR of around 1800 calories, rough estimate. Do you have any idea how much chicken breast and kale you would have to eat to eat 1800 calories? So much your stomach would burst.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

Uhh you do realize that there are countries without welfare right? Also, even in 1st world welfare states, there are people, for various reasons, who have a tough time getting on welfare.

How fucking problematic is obesity in the third world. Your argument is fucking bankrupt.

[Fourth Internationalist]

Yes it can. It solely involves eating less calories than one's maintenance level.

In much of the western world people can only afford unhealthy food because most of the time they are much cheaper than nearly any healthy food. Also, it's hard to get the time to exercise with two or three jobs and children, you know?


So, you're arguing that it is impossible to lose weight, yet possible to starve????

For people whose low income and location on earth can only buy them unhealthy foods, those are the only two options. I'd rather eat unhealthy food than starve, but eh, that's just me.

[Fourth Internationalist]

How fucking problematic is obesity in the third world. Your argument is fucking bankrupt.

His argument also deals with the first world. You can't just ignore half an argument and then call it entirely bankrupt. Also, no welfare =/= third world.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

This works

[Art Vandelay]

A fat person had excess fat stores, to maintain them they have to eat at or above their BMR.

Doing so is impossible by just eating lean protein, vegetables and fruit.

For example a 170 pound males will have a BMR of around 1800 calories, rough estimate. Do you have any idea how much chicken breast and kale you would have to eat to eat 1800 calories? So much your stomach would burst.

Look I don't care what anyone else has been arguing, but like I already said, framing the issue in this fashion already misses the point. Look I'll give you the fact that people can eat healthy on a cheap diet. I make barely anything above minimum wage and am a vegetarian (which means I'm generally eating plenty of fresh fruit and veggies) and eat fairly healthy. I have no problems managing that. Like you already said, you were able to eat healthy on welfare, it is possible. But this on its own teaches us nothing.

So there is two ways we can approach the issue: (1) the method you took of saying, 'look at me, if I can do it, so can everyone else, if you're overweight and its not caused by a medical issue then you did this to yourself, you don't want to get called fat then get off your ass, etc...(which in itself isn't very enlightening)...or (2) we can approach this issue from a logical standpoint, leave whatever personal anecdotes we have behind (since they don't make for very compelling arguments) and analyze the societal factors which lead there to be such a large correlation between poverty and obesity.

Which one will lead to a more fruitful analysis?

[Prof. Oblivion]

A fat person had excess fat stores, to maintain them they have to eat at or above their BMR.

Doing so is impossible by just eating lean protein, vegetables and fruit.

For example a 170 pound males will have a BMR of around 1800 calories, rough estimate. Do you have any idea how much chicken breast and kale you would have to eat to eat 1800 calories? So much your stomach would burst.

Just for a correction, BMR is caloric maintenance level at complete rest. I think you mean TDEE, or total daily energy expenditure, i.e. caloric maintanence level given one's body and level of activity.


In much of the western world people can only afford unhealthy food because most of the time they are much cheaper than nearly any healthy food. Also, it's hard to get the time to exercise with two or three jobs and children, you know?

For people whose low income and location on earth can only buy them unhealthy foods, those are the only two options. I'd rather eat unhealthy food than starve, but eh, that's just me.

Well there's a few fundamentally wrong presumptions here. First, there is no such thing as an "unhealthy" food. Food cannot be healthy or unhealthy, but diets can. Any type of food can fit into either a healthy or unhealthy diet. The construction of one's diet as a whole can solely be determined to be healthy or unhealthy, based on the satisfaction of one's macro/micronutrient requirements.

Second (though this isn't even necessary to argue because my previous point demolished your argument), there is nobody in the developed world that is too poor to afford rice, frozen vegetables, eggs and whey protein who can also afford frozen pizza, hot pockets, bacon, etc. Rice is like $10 for a 15 lb bag, frozen veggies are like a dollar a bag, eggs and whey protein are the cheapest protein sources available.

Third, your dichotomy of "eat unhealthy and be fat or starve" is completely hypocritical and self-defeating. If someone can starve, then by definition that means it is also possible for them to eat at maintenance or a healthy level below maintenance to achieve fat loss.

The reason people don't do these things are either because they are not educated enough on the subject to change their eating habits, or they don't care enough to do so.



So there is two ways we can approach the issue: (1) the method you took of saying, 'look at me, if I can do it, so can everyone else, if you're overweight and its not caused by a medical issue then you did this to yourself, you don't want to get called fat then get off your ass, etc...(which itself isn't very enlightening...or (2) we can approach this issue from a logical standpoint, leave whatever personal anecdotes we have behind (since they don't make for very compelling arguments) and analyze the societal factors which lead there to be such a large correlation between poverty and obesity.

I agree with this, though I don't think that such an analysis should absolve individuals' agency, which is a primary tenet of materialist analysis and which User Name is denying.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

Look I don't care what anyone else has been arguing, but like I already said, framing the issue in this fashion already misses the point. Look I'll give you the fact that people can eat healthy on a cheap diet. I make barely anything above minimum wage and am a vegetarian (which means I'm generally eating plenty of fresh fruit and veggies) and eat fairly healthy. I have no problems managing that. Like you already said, you were able to eat healthy on welfare, it is possible. But this on its own teaches us nothing.

So there is two ways we can approach the issue: (1) the method you took of saying, 'look at me, if I can do it, so can everyone else, if you're overweight and its not caused by a medical issue then you did this to yourself, you don't want to get called fat then get off your ass, etc...(which itself isn't very enlightening...or (2) we can approach this issue from a logical standpoint, leave whatever personal anecdotes we have behind (since they don't make for very compelling arguments) and analyze the societal factors which lead there to be such a large correlation between poverty and obesity.

Which one will lead to a more fruitful analysis?

That is not true. Saying for example, how many millionaires riot is a good example of what you are saying. However, many rich people are fat as fuck. The most common reason to be fat is laziness. I know, I have been fat because I enjoy being lazy and then get fit because I have willpower. I know more more fit workers than fat ones, so using class to argue that class situation drove them to be fat is redundant, most workers are not fat.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

Just for a correction, BMR is caloric maintenance level at complete rest. I think you mean TDEE, or total daily energy expenditure, i.e. caloric maintanence level given one's body and level of activity.



Well there's a few fundamentally wrong presumptions here. First, there is no such thing as an "unhealthy" food. Food cannot be healthy or unhealthy, but diets can. Any type of food can fit into either a healthy or unhealthy diet. The construction of one's diet as a whole can solely be determined to be healthy or unhealthy, based on the satisfaction of one's macro/micronutrient requirements.

Second (though this isn't even necessary to argue because my previous point demolished your argument), there is nobody in the developed world that is too poor to afford rice, frozen vegetables, eggs and whey protein who can also afford frozen pizza, hot pockets, bacon, etc. Rice is like $10 for a 15 lb bag, frozen veggies are like a dollar a bag, eggs and whey protein are the cheapest protein sources available.

Third, your dichotomy of "eat unhealthy and be fat or starve" is completely hypocritical and self-defeating. If someone can starve, then by definition that means it is also possible for them to eat at maintenance or a healthy level below maintenance to achieve fat loss.

The reason people don't do these things are either because they are not educated enough on the subject to change their eating habits, or they don't care enough to do so.



I agree with this, though I don't think that such an analysis should absolve individuals' agency, which is a primary tenet of materialist analysis and which User Name is denying.

No I meant BMR, if you eat below BMR and do not exercise you will lose weight. I said that because I know you can do your BMR online and Don't know about anything else online. I get all my stuff done for me when I start getting ready for comp.

You just add the excersise calories burned minus what you would of burned in that time sate down onto your BMR, though I would just get your BMR and eat below that.

[Art Vandelay]

I agree with this, though I don't think that such an analysis should absolve individuals' agency, which is a primary tenet of materialist analysis and which User Name is denying.

I don't think User Name is denying this, however I have a small bone to pick. I think claiming that 'human agency' is the 'primary tenet of materialist analysis' is false. The primary tenet of materialist analysis is that matter is entirely independent of and precedes thought. Dialectical materialism has a place for human agency, no Marxist can disagree with free will in my mind, having said that however our choices are limited and influenced by material conditions. Again the question here isn't about whether or not people who suffer from obesity hold any responsibility over their weight (of course they do, although its not as simple as saying, this is entirely their fault, which would be far from the truth) but again this misses the point and teaches us nothing. If we want to understand the phenomenon of widespread obesity and help to promote healthier lifestyles, we do this by understanding the societal factors which lead to this; not by reinforcing the stigma associated with obesity by calling them lazy.

[Prof. Oblivion]

No I meant BMR, if you eat below BMR and do not exercise you will lose weight.Eating below your BMR is generally too large of a deficit and is not healthy. Generally a 20% deficit from one's TDEE is a valid starting point.


I don't think User Name is denying this, however I have a small bone to pick. I think claiming that 'human agency' is the 'primary tenet of materialist analysis' is false. The primary tenet of materialist analysis is that matter is entirely independent of and precedes thought. Dialectical materialism has a place for human agency, no Marxist can disagree with free will in my mind, having said that however our choices are limited and influenced by material conditions. Again the question here isn't about whether or not people who suffer from obesity hold any responsibility over their weight (of course they do, although its not as simple as saying, this is entirely their fault, which would be far from the truth) but again this misses the point and teaches us nothing. If we want to understand the phenomenon of widespread obesity and help to promote healthier lifestyles, we do this by understand the societal factors which lead to this; not by reinforcing the stigma associated with obesity by calling them lazy.I agree with all of this. User Name is the one that said it is physically impossible for poor people to lose weight because they only have access to "unhealthy food," completely eliminating agency from the equation.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

Just for a correction, BMR is caloric maintenance level at complete rest. I think you mean TDEE, or total daily energy expenditure, i.e. caloric maintanence level given one's body and level of activity.



Well there's a few fundamentally wrong presumptions here. First, there is no such thing as an "unhealthy" food. Food cannot be healthy or unhealthy, but diets can. Any type of food can fit into either a healthy or unhealthy diet. The construction of one's diet as a whole can solely be determined to be healthy or unhealthy, based on the satisfaction of one's macro/micronutrient requirements.

Second (though this isn't even necessary to argue because my previous point demolished your argument), there is nobody in the developed world that is too poor to afford rice, frozen vegetables, eggs and whey protein who can also afford frozen pizza, hot pockets, bacon, etc. Rice is like $10 for a 15 lb bag, frozen veggies are like a dollar a bag, eggs and whey protein are the cheapest protein sources available.

Third, your dichotomy of "eat unhealthy and be fat or starve" is completely hypocritical and self-defeating. If someone can starve, then by definition that means it is also possible for them to eat at maintenance or a healthy level below maintenance to achieve fat loss.

The reason people don't do these things are either because they are not educated enough on the subject to change their eating habits, or they don't care enough to do so.



I agree with this, though I don't think that such an analysis should absolve individuals' agency, which is a primary tenet of materialist analysis and which User Name is denying.

Are you on Tnation? or bodybuilding.com? You made me think of if it fits your macros :p

Also foods can be abd for you and not make you overweight. For example high grain intake can wreak havoc on your natural anti inflamatory functions and will mess your cortisol up.

I think most athletes now are taking on the whole foods, high protein diets. At least in combat sports for longevity,

[Fourth Internationalist]

The reason people don't do these things are either because they are not educated enough on the subject to change their eating habits, Exactly. They are not choosing to be uneducated, and thus they can't change their eating habits.


or they don't care enough to do so.Or they don't have the time after dealing with two or three jobs and dealing with their children.


I agree with this, though I don't think that such an analysis should absolve individuals' agency, which is a primary tenet of materialist analysis and which User Name is denying. I am not absolving the agency of individuals. However, assuming that all people who are in all sorts of situations are able to lose weight for example by buying cheap healthy food because you do is the same mentality that capitalists use "If I can do it, why can't they?"

[Aleksandr Karelin]

Eating below your BMR is generally too large of a deficit and is not healthy. Generally a 20% deficit from one's TDEE is a valid starting point.

Yeah I mean it depends on the approach. I think its good to do a reverse depletion program while getting fit.

Instead of slowly reducing calories over wight months like most do. I suggest starting low, building calories up slowly to compensate with the ability to excersie harder and then in the final third of your transformation ramp them back down.

It is a great idea for someone so fat they find it hard to recover from exercise midway into a routine due to joint pain.

I am currently playing with a CKD diet experimenting with getting to an unhealthy 4% bodybuilding bf% Just for fun but the problem is it has started to interfere with my training for sports. I feel like a mad professor with a human test patient in myself.

[Fourth Internationalist]

I agree with all of this. User Name is the one that said it is physically impossible for poor people to lose weight because they only have access to "unhealthy food," completely eliminating agency from the equation.

Not all poor people, but many can't due to lack of time, not enough cheap and healthy foods available, lack of education, etc. Just as many people can't become successful capitalists. In some situations, no, the person has no choice, as with capitalism.

EDIT: To quote 9mm...

having said that however our choices are limited and influenced by material conditions.
That's why I'm saying here. I admit, 'impossible' was a poor word because almost anything can be done, even if it's only a 0.000...1% chance.

[Quail]

If you are fat you either have a medical condition or you made yourself fat. I have been 200 pounds and 130 pounds. I do sports and yoyo my weight, I can reach 200 pounds and with willpower lose 70 pounds of it to get ready for competition.

If you don't want to be called fat, loose weight, eat below your BMR, eat non processed foods and take personal responsibility. I earn minimum wage. I can go and buy lots of vegetables, lean meat and fruit. There is no excuse.

I like to fuck around with my weight and if you are not scared of strech marks it is fun.

I have helped my mate go from 24 stone with no confidence to 18 stone, changing the composition and building over 25 pounds of lean body mass. He finally agreed to go in the gym after I called him a fat lazy prick for a year. He thanks me all the time for changing his life.

People are soft nowadays, if no one tells you you are fat and you need to get fit you will rarely change it around.

Saying that if someone is fine with being fat great. But I have never met a single person who is.

Key points for people who wnat to get in great shape.



Do olympic lifts, low repetition heavy sets. Track workouts and build steadily.

High intensity interval training, no LISS cardio putting you in a catabolic state.

Eat a gram of protein per pound of bodyweight.

Avoid grains and sugar.

Eat steak and eggs, higher cholesterol improves protein synthesis, improves testosterone and lowers estrogen.

No vegetable oils, olive or coconut only.

Drink only water and at least 4 litres a day.

Edit* never join a gym that does not have at least 3 squat racks, does not allow chalk or ask you to be quieter.

Also interesting fact, research has shown that a 20 minute ice bath post workout can lead to 50% higher fat loss in a four month period than regular baths. If one thing can help you the most for the least money and effort taking a daily ice bath is the one I would reccomend to supplement clean diet.

Only supplements worth taking are creatine Mono and a preworkout like DMAA.

Have you read the rest of the thread? A person's weight is not entirely down to "individual responsibility" for a multitude of reasons that have already been mentioned.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

Have you read the rest of the thread? A person's weight is not entirely down to "individual responsibility" for a multitude of reasons that have already been mentioned.

Hence my disclaimer of, unless you are suffering from .......

[Prof. Oblivion]

Exactly. They are not choosing to be uneducated, and thus they can't change their eating habits.

Or they don't have the time after dealing with two or three jobs and dealing with their children.

I am not absolving the agency of individuals. However, assuming that all people who are in all sorts of situations are able to lose weight for example by buying cheap healthy food because you do is the same mentality that capitalists use "If I can do it, why can't they?"


Not all poor people, but many can't due to lack of time, not enough cheap and healthy foods available, lack of education, etc. Just as many people can't become successful capitalists. In some situations, no, the person has no choice, as with capitalism.

EDIT: To quote 9mm...

That's why I'm saying here. I admit, 'impossible' was a poor word because almost anything can be done, even if it's only a 0.000...1% chance.

It doesn't take time to eat less or shop differently. It doesn't take time to prepare healthier meals as opposed to unhealthy ones. It doesn't take time to monitor one's caloric intake. This is all a non-argument.

[Quail]

Hence my disclaimer of, unless you are suffering from .......


It doesn't take time to eat less or shop differently. It doesn't take time to prepare healthier meals as opposed to unhealthy ones. It doesn't take time to monitor one's caloric intake. This is all a non-argument.

It isn't as simple as people just needing to eat less and shop differently. To quote myself from earlier:

Also, as many people have pointed out, the reasons why a person is overweight are complex and take place within our society. There may be medical reasons why someone is overweight, or psychological reasons. Binge-eating is addictive and makes people feel better. There are a lot of things in a capitalist society which make people unhappy, and therefore more susceptible to binge-eating, which would disproportionately affect the poor and marginalised groups. There's also the point to be made that in some places especially, there is a link between poverty and obesity (I watched a documentary about this a while ago). It's not that poor people are too lazy or stupid to cook decent food, but that junk food can be significantly cheaper than healthy food. Placing all the blame on the individual for their "choice" to eat unhealthy food and be overweight ignores the wider context.

There is a link between poverty and obesity - do you think that is because poor people are too lazy and stupid to eat right? Or do you think there might be other factors at play?

To illustrate some of the stuff that influences people's eating habits, I'm a mostly recovered bulimic. Eating unhealthy food is an excellent way of blocking out unwanted emotions - such as those someone who is disadvantaged and marginalised in society might feel. Eating junk food is also incredibly addictive; I was constantly thinking about it and planning my next binge. Now, while most people won't binge eat to the same degree that I did, it's quite obvious to me how food can play a big part in dealing with emotions.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

It isn't as simple as people just needing to eat less and shop differently. To quote myself from earlier:


There is a link between poverty and obesity - do you think that is because poor people are too lazy and stupid to eat right? Or do you think there might be other factors at play?

To illustrate some of the stuff that influences people's eating habits, I'm a mostly recovered bulimic. Eating unhealthy food is an excellent way of blocking out unwanted emotions - such as those someone who is disadvantaged and marginalised in society might feel. Eating junk food is also incredibly addictive; I was constantly thinking about it and planning my next binge. Now, while most people won't binge eat to the same degree that I did, it's quite obvious to me how food can play a big part in dealing with emotions.

I am poor, I was addicted to food. I changed my body. That right there is proof. I ate because I was emotionally fucked up. I did something about it. All this is just enabling fat people. It is the mental weakness that leads to people getting gastric bands on my tax money because they could not put down a fork.

I have had do many issues around food, alcohol and drugs. I am now in insane shape. So no matter what you say, I was the typical, emotionally addicted food junkie, I realized I was a fat loser killing myself and changed it. There are no excuses good enough to take someones self responsibility away.

Now tell me I am not being rational and am insensitive, but the fact I have completely changed my body and life, my friends and helped two relatives drastically drop bodyfat and gain confidence, I am telling you you are just not right.

Are there extreme cases where people are so damaged they won't stop eating? wekll yes, unless they have a friend or relative bullying them into getting into shape, hence why I am against the thread title, because constructively bullying a fat person into a healthy confident new life is not really bullying, it is loving someone so much you are willing to be the bad guy to stop hem losing at life.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

Infact in msot cases, the normalisation and acceptance of someone you know getting really fat is the only reason it happens. One of the reason I got into shae was because I didn't like being called, or looked at or being fat. It was because no one said anything I let it get out of hand for so long.

[Hermes]

I am poor, I was addicted to food. I changed my body. That right there is proof. I ate because I was emotionally fucked up. I did something about it. All this is just enabling fat people. It is the mental weakness that leads to people getting gastric bands on my tax money because they could not put down a fork.

I have had do many issues around food, alcohol and drugs. I am now in insane shape. So no matter what you say, I was the typical, emotionally addicted food junkie, I realized I was a fat loser killing myself and changed it. There are no excuses good enough to take someones self responsibility away.

Now tell me I am not being rational and am insensitive, but the fact I have completely changed my body and life, my friends and helped two relatives drastically drop bodyfat and gain confidence, I am telling you you are just not right.

Are there extreme cases where people are so damaged they won't stop eating? wekll yes, unless they have a friend or relative bullying them into getting into shape, hence why I am against the thread title, because constructively bullying a fat person into a healthy confident new life is not really bullying, it is loving someone so much you are willing to be the bad guy to stop hem losing at life.

This is ridiculous though; no one is claiming that there are no exceptions or that everyone who is poor will naturally be fat, or even that those who do become fat are doomed to stay that way.

You talking about whether you should have to pay taxes for their surgery is completely missing the point, not just because the surgery isn't performed on every overweight person. It's about whether society can sustain it effectively and whether or not the person has any problem with being overweight not about how their choices impact you directly, in this particular situation.

Should people always feel terrible about being overweight? You seem to argue yes, without really showing any reason for it.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

This is ridiculous though; no one is claiming that there are no exceptions or that everyone who is poor will naturally be fat, or even that those who do become fat are doomed to stay that way.

You talking about whether you should have to pay taxes for their surgery is completely missing the point, not just because the surgery isn't performed on every overweight person. It's about whether society can sustain it effectively and whether or not the person has any problem with being overweight not about how their choices impact you directly, in this particular situation.

Should people always feel terrible about being overweight? You seem to argue yes, without really showing any reason for it.

Because being fat is bad with no positive side effects?

Being fat has never been good. Any rational person would not argue being fat is a good thing. In any case, yes I think being fat is a reflecton of who you are. When I was fat I was lazy and mentally weak, me being in shape shows I can turn things around and take self responsibility.

Are there exceptions? of course, but they are the very small minority in the fat population, who have very specific cases where it can be understood, for example one is when a child is abused as a jkid and gets fat as a self preservation mechanism, which I know esxists and know someone who went through it. But she actually decided not to get surgery she should of got and is trying her best and I am super proud of her. She is down from like 29 stone to I think 28 in a month. I basically told her to get her shit together and when I explained at ehr weight she could still eat 3,000 calories and lose tonnes of weight I think I shamed her into action.

She won't go gym because she is embarassed but she does a walk up a hill half a mile each morning and is getting her diet dlowly better each day.

I love being a former fatty because when people think they can get away with making excuses I show them my beofre and after shots and it changes from I can't to, tell me how.

[Hermes]

Because being fat is bad with no positive side effects?

Being fat has never been good. Any rational person would not argue being fat is a good thing. In any case, yes I think being fat is a reflecton of who you are. When I was fat I was lazy and mentally weak, me being in shape shows I can turn things around and take self responsibility.

Are there exceptions? of course, but they are the very small minority in the fat population, who have very specific cases where it can be understood, for example one is when a child is abused as a jkid and gets fat as a self preservation mechanism, which I know esxists and know someone who went through it. But she actually decided not to get surgery she should of got and is trying her best and I am super proud of her. She is down from like 29 stone to I think 28 in a month. I basically told her to get her shit together and when I explained at ehr weight she could still eat 3,000 calories and lose tonnes of weight I think I shamed her into action.

She won't go gym because she is embarassed but she does a walk up a hill half a mile each morning and is getting her diet dlowly better each day.

I love being a former fatty because when people think they can get away with making excuses I show them my beofre and after shots and it changes from I can't to, tell me how.

No positive side effects for you, I have no doubt. You've already made that quite clear from your own opinions. If you're only talking about physical health, though, that conversation has been had countless times in this thread.

Of course being fat 'is a reflection of who you are' in the same way whether or not you have muscle is. I don't think you're capable of understanding a person enough (with a few exceptions for those you know well) to tell exactly what that reflection is, as you so clearly are in this thread. For you, it was that you were lazy and mentally weak. This does not always have to be the case. I think that your attempt to claim that everyone who is fat (with the medical/psychological exceptions you've mentioned above) lacks 'self responsibility' is kind of silly. It's the same argument to stop people from doing drugs, and I don't think one should condone it whatsoever.

If you are genuinely meeting tons of overweight people who want to become less overweight, and are actively helping them, good for you, good for them. That's not really what this is about, though. Shaming someone for being fat is making a normative judgement for the rest of humanity, and I'm not sure you're qualified to do that.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

Also being in great shape is not a privilege, you don't get to binge out, or not exercise. it is hard work and dedication that gets you giant slabs of meat for pecs and huge swole biceps. not a privilege given at birth.

[Hermes]

Also being in great shape is not a privilege, you don't get to binge out, or not exercise. it is hard work and dedication that gets you giant slabs of meat for pecs and huge swole biceps. not a privilege given at birth.

I'm not sure anyone was claiming that?

--

Oh, I see. I think you're looking at the word 'privilege' wrong. It's privileges granted to an individual from society based on something (say, their being slim, for this example).

Apologies, misunderstood you.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

I'm not sure anyone was claiming that?

--

Oh, I see. I think you're looking at the word 'privilege' wrong. It's privileges granted to an individual from society based on something (say, their being slim, for this example).

Apologies, misunderstood you.

but white privilege and hetro privilege are actual privileges given at birth, people respect fit people because you are mentally and physically strong to have a sick body and huge lat spread. You are not born in amazing shape or fat and stuck wth either one.

[Hermes]

but white privilege and hetro privilege are actual privileges given at birth, people respect fit people because you are mentally and physically strong to have a sick body and huge lat spread. You are not born in amazing shape or fat and stuck wth either one.

No, I recognize what you're saying, but simply because white privilege and hetero privilege are bestowed at birth, doesn't mean that all privilege is only received at birth.

Being in amazing shape could, theoretically, make you more able to help society than another, but in most countries I'd find it kind of doubtful, especially if we're talking about a service economy like the U.S. (I'm aware that you're not from the U.S., pardon the example). People should be valued by what they contribute to the community, not what they could potentially contribute to the community.

[#FF0000]

I am poor, I was addicted to food. I changed my body. That right there is proof. I ate because I was emotionally fucked up. I did something about it. All this is just enabling fat people. It is the mental weakness that leads to people getting gastric bands on my tax money because they could not put down a fork.

If you ate because you were emotionally fucked up, then certainly encouraging people to not hate themselves/their bodies would be a good thing -- since shaming people for their weight is certainly gonna fuck up someone emotionally, right?


I realized I was a fat loser killing myself and changed it. There are no excuses good enough to take someones self responsibility away.


I think it's really odd that I came from the same place as you and I'm still able to recognize that there's more to the 'obesity epidemic' than just individual moral failings (like every other social phenomenon)


Are there extreme cases where people are so damaged they won't stop eating? wekll yes, unless they have a friend or relative bullying them into getting into shape, hence why I am against the thread title, because constructively bullying a fat person into a healthy confident new life is not really bullying, it is loving someone so much you are willing to be the bad guy to stop hem losing at life.

You said earlier you overate because you were "emotionally fucked up". How, then, is emotionally fucking people up supposed to get them to lose weight?

Also, it's not just about being able to afford healthy food. Education is a pretty huge barrier as well. When I started dieting and eating right, I was shocked by how little people around me knew about what and how to eat, about what was "good for you" and what was not.

[Prof. Oblivion]

There is a link between poverty and obesity - do you think that is because poor people are too lazy and stupid to eat right? Or do you think there might be other factors at play?

Stop misrepresenting my position.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

1. Fuck "Health". "Health" is a means by which capital regulates bodies and attempts to maintain a workforce suited to particular tasks (or ill suited to others). "Health" is polite liberal doublespeak for "biopower".

2. Fatphobia (directed toward all genders) is closely tied up with patriarchy (which, in turn, is closely tied up with capital's regulation of the reproduction of labour). Fatphobia is implicitly misogynist and, consequently, implicitly bourgeois. This is, further, true on a sociological level. Quality food, access to education about our bodies, etc. is denied to working class communities. At my job (sitting in front of a computer all day) in a historically working class neighbourhood, there are no grocery stores I can walk to in the time allotted for my lunch. If my coworkers don't bring lunch with them, they literally have to buy lunch from a dépanneur (instant noodles, canned soup, chips . . .), or a pub, or they don't eat.

[Ele'ill]

1. Fuck "Health". "Health" is a means by which capital regulates bodies and attempts to maintain a workforce suited to particular tasks (or ill suited to others). "Health" is polite liberal doublespeak for "biopower".


what can you elaborate here

[Paul Pott]

Wow, the left is always looking for some new 'ism' to crusade against.

That's right, I'm thin, privileged, and I know it. If you can't fit in an airplane seat fuck you. Just push away from the table.

[Paul Pott]

The cause is the excess of little Debbie cakes and KFC. If we banned little Debbie cakes we could solve our health problems overnight.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

1. Fuck "Health". "Health" is a means by which capital regulates bodies and attempts to maintain a workforce suited to particular tasks (or ill suited to others). "Health" is polite liberal doublespeak for "biopower".

I'm not sure I agree, I would argue that obesity already is a means for capital to regulate the work force. My obese coworkers are terrified about being canned because everyone is convinced that they are to blame for our insurance costs, and they are aware that they would be at a disadvantage competing for a new job in this market. This puts them in a very precarious position and they respond accordingly in their day to day activity.

[Paul Pott]

communism: tummy tucks for everyone

[Os Cangaceiros]

You know who's really privileged in society? Good looking people. Which I guess is a separate-but-related issue vis-à-vis "thin privilege".

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Man I am so privileged.

I wonder if there's a way for you to fit all your stupid one liners into a single post, you should look into it

[#FF0000]

Look at antinihilist get mad at a thread he didn't even read

[Le Libérer]

This thread has given me a headache.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

I'm not sure I agree, I would argue that obesity already is a means for capital to regulate the work force. My obese coworkers are terrified about being canned because everyone is convinced that they are to blame for our insurance costs, and they are aware that they would be at a disadvantage competing for a new job in this market. This puts them in a very precarious position and they respond accordingly in their day to day activity.

See, that's actually a pretty good example of what I'm talking about. "Health" is constructed in such a way that "poor health"/disease/sickness can be used as weapons to enforce certain types of compliance, to regulate to bodies, etc., and, in this case, even as a crass ideological weapon against the working class.

[Paul Pott]

Lol, our ideology in the USA is supersize me.

[Quail]

AntiNihilist, please stop posing off topic one-liners. This is a verbal warning.

[Art Vandelay]

Alot of the time seeing the prejudicial sentiments that exist, even within the left, makes me really sad.

[Fionnagáin]

You know who's really privileged in society? Good looking people. Which I guess is a separate-but-related issue vis-à-vis "thin privilege".
I'm not sure that "privilege" is to be understood as "has a slightly easier time of things than I do, in most circumstances". If that was the case, then I'd be able to claim that people who don't have hayfever are privileged which is on the face of it ridiculous.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Trying to get away from some of the privilage language - which I think can sometimes make things less clear, this thread being an example :lol:.

Are fat people oppressed in this society? Well I don't know if it could really be called that. Fat people are certaintly the target of elitism and scapegoated in a petty-bourgoise moralistic sense (hence the elitism). It's revelaing that images and phrases used to describe obease people have elitist connections, "Fat, slob" "lazy fat person" and all the images of overweight working class and poor people.

So in my view, it's really more of two conncected social things: an ideological scapegoating the problems connected to poverty on the poor (why should my taxes pay for someone to smoke cigarettes or get fat on McDonald's food?), and elitism. Fat used to be associated with the rich, but petty-bourgoise "conspicious consumption" now often means more "quality" or consious consumption rather than quantity for things like food and clothing. Being thin is associated with upward mobility, with being a modern version of a yuppie (hours in the gym, eating the right foods, etc).

Why is "obesity an issue?" Well for one thing, the stress of capitalist life causes some people to over-eat, but really our lives as wage-workers are pretty sedintary for the most part (not to mention all that's involved with inequality in foods readily available for people - soda's cheap and ubiqutious, grains go a long way for cheap, sugary food helps keep us going until the next break). Sitting at a desk or a register all day will make people fat, being thin means that you have to take it apon yourself to compensate and have the time and energy and money to shop-"right" and workout.

It's elitism, connected to class (and often race) issues IMO, not a special oppression like racism or homophobia or whatnot. Doesn't mean it can't be painful, harmful, divisive, and in the service of ruling class attitudes though.

[Jimmie Higgins]

Thought this image was interesting considering the topic of this thread:
http://www.salon.com/2013/04/23/pictures_of_people_who_mock_me/
http://media.salon.com/2013/04/cops_embed.jpg

[black magick hustla]

um, i actually have a lot of thoughts about this topic. and there's a lot of dumb prejudice here.

to make a comparison. my uncle makes six digits now. he was born in a poor household with 9 brothers and the house was so small some of them had to sleep in the kitchen's floor. what's with the "poor" people complaining here? they have it pretty good - live in the first world, have access to the internet - heck some of you have a college degree! crybabies!

you see what i did there? poor people can probably makee specific choices in their life that in the long run would probably help them career wise. like you know, not getting pregnant/studying hard at school, etc. however, why is it that most poor people stay poor?

that's because there's specific material and sociological reasons. if you grow up surrounded by violence, and alcoholism, where education is not appreciated, where people start families when they are 19, etc you will probably end up like that. for example, if you are a native american in canada, you can pretty much go to college for free ... however if you grow up in a reservation shithole, probably "going to college" is the last of your worries. however, in a more ideal world, sure, if natives only did the right choices...


obesity is actually very similar. yes, you can make very specific choices that will help you lose weight, with the right education and discipline. hit the weights to jack up your metabolism, eat a lot of fibers and proteins. avoid high glycemic index food that will make you feel hungry, etc. however, there are psychological and structural reasons why someone is obese. it's linked to poverty (congrats to the shitty white students that are "poor" and are fit, here have a cookie), self-esteem issues, etc. so yes, if you are able to overcome this things, and you eat less calories that you spend, yes you can lose weight. the problem is getting to that mindset....


anyway, i don't think "thin priviliege" exists. i think it's tumblr priviliege politics bullshit. from my understanding, "priviliege" as a concept makes more sense if a particular group gains some benefit out of opressing other groups. you could for example, maybe argue male priviliege exists cuz' dudes do gain some advantages from patriarchy that they wouldn't have if there was equality between genders. you know, like free domestic labor they don't have to do,super available sexual gratification, etc. you could also make a similar argument (although i dont know if i agree) with white priviliege - you know, colonialism basically. however, i have a hard time thinking why thin people benefit from putting down obese people.

anyway y'all suck bb

[black magick hustla]

also, a lot of "fat shaming" (god i hate that word, "shaming") is linked to classism and sexism etc

[Os Cangaceiros]

I'm not sure that "privilege" is to be understood as "has a slightly easier time of things than I do, in most circumstances". If that was the case, then I'd be able to claim that people who don't have hayfever are privileged which is on the face of it ridiculous.

Well I agree with that, that's why I compared it to "thin privilege", ie something I don't think exists.

[Einkarl]

Making fun of fat people is rude, duh. That's like a given. But I don't think that's the discussion at hand, e.i. one of what virtue lies at ridiculing people. The issue here is of "thin privilege".

I do not subscribe to the whole "privilege" line of thought for reasons I won't articulate now, but if I did I would be completely opposed to thought of "thin privilege".

Being overweight, while having some link in the genetic, is often attributed more to diet and habits. This isn't evil bourgeois propaganda hell bent on making us all super skinny, its a medical fact. And being over weight is in fact unhealthy, and to claim this too is bourgeois propaganda is just posturing or rationalizing.

Some users have linked weight discrimination to sexism. And yes it is absolutely true that media in bourgeois culture portrays overly thin models as beautiful, and therefore overweight women as unfavorable or unattractive. But the issue here isn't one of "thin privilege" or of "fat oppression" but of women oppression, it's sexism.

And while making fun of overweight people is rude, I don't think anyone should encourage being overweight or claim that they're an oppressed group.

I'll be damned if there is an Overweight People's Liberation Front.

[MarxArchist]

People considered "unattractive" in general are discriminated against in rather subtle ways. Peopel with frekles, red heads, dwarfs, men with male pattern baldness, people with bad teeth, people with deformities, giants etc. All things people are born with and can't control. Can most overweight people control their weight?

[Rottenfruit]

People considered "unattractive" in general are discriminated against in rather subtle ways. Peopel with frekles, red heads, dwarfs, men with male pattern baldness, people with bad teeth, people with deformities, giants etc. All things people are born with and can't control. Can most overweight people control their weight?

AS an ex anoric i can say yes everybody can lose weight and keep the lost weight but it takes alot of discipline and hardship, if you are used to eat alot its very hard to change your lifestyle to eat less, and going from 200 pounds to lets say 120 pounds means you will have to eat less A LOT LESS for the rest of your life if you want to keep that weight

But theres a threshold of what amount of calories you need to eat per day to keep your current weight, a amount to gain weight and a threshold to lose weight, its harder to lose each pound because the threshold for the amount of calories needed to lose weight decreases for every one lost, a person that is 300 pounds would need at least 3000 calories a day just to keep his weight, but a person 120 pounds will gain weight fro eating 2500 in most cases


Ive gone personaly from 190 pounds to less then 100 pounds and im now at 140 pounds(recoviring anorxic even dare to say ex anorxic), count very calorie you eat never cheat thats how you lose weight., eat 1700 calories a day to lose weight, dont eat less then 1300 else you will start burning your muscle tissues away

[Rottenfruit]

Look I don't care what anyone else has been arguing, but like I already said, framing the issue in this fashion already misses the point. Look I'll give you the fact that people can eat healthy on a cheap diet. I make barely anything above minimum wage and am a vegetarian (which means I'm generally eating plenty of fresh fruit and veggies) and eat fairly healthy. I have no problems managing that. Like you already said, you were able to eat healthy on welfare, it is possible. But this on its own teaches us nothing.

So there is two ways we can approach the issue: (1) the method you took of saying, 'look at me, if I can do it, so can everyone else, if you're overweight and its not caused by a medical issue then you did this to yourself, you don't want to get called fat then get off your ass, etc...(which in itself isn't very enlightening)...or (2) we can approach this issue from a logical standpoint, leave whatever personal anecdotes we have behind (since they don't make for very compelling arguments) and analyze the societal factors which lead there to be such a large correlation between poverty and obesity.

Which one will lead to a more fruitful analysis?


The main reason for obisty among lower classes is because people of lower classes eat cheaper food and cheaper food often contains very high amount of calories and little amount of vitamins and minierals which leads to craving for more food

Its not the amount of food or calories that stops your hunger and makes you feel full but your body´s need for minierals and vitamins is what makes you feel full, thats why you can eat 3500 calories of Doritos chips and not get that full but you get full from eating 1000 calories of high quality beef.

[Art Vandelay]

The main reason for obisty among lower classes is because people of lower classes eat cheaper food and cheaper food often contains very high amount of calories and little amount of vitamins and minierals which leads to craving for more food

Its not the amount of food or calories that stops your hunger and makes you feel full but your body´s need for minierals and vitamins is what makes you feel full, thats why you can eat 3500 calories of Doritos chips and not get that full but you get full from eating 1000 calories of high quality beef.

Which is precisely the point, that people who articulate the link between poverty and obesity make. Due to budget and time constraints, those are generally the most accessible foods to people in the lower stratum of society.

[Il Medico]

(Disclaimer: I'm too tired/lazy today to read though the thread in full, so I'm just gonna give my two cents on the op question and apologize if I'm repeating shit that has been said before)

Fat people certainly get a lot of shit, but I think it's a strech to say this is representative of an oppressive power structure that favors thin people. So the idea that such of thing as 'thin privilege' exist is probably poppy-cock.

[Tenka]

Don't remember if this has been mentioned, but CAR CULTURE certainly contributes a great deal to fatness in developed countries. When you have to sit down and buckle up to get anywhere, you're not going to be burning nearly as many calories as you would if you had to walk to a train or bus station, or directly to your shitty job, or go by bike.

My mother has to sit at her job, which is at a callcentre (they have the option to stand, but her back's not good for that); she also has to sit on her way to and fro said job, in her automobile; and when at last she is home, all she wants to do is sit in front of her computer and watch Netflix or play Facebook games or chat with random degenerates on Facebook. As can be expected, SHE IS VERY VERY FAT AND I FEEL SORRY FOR HER. But what can be done? Abolish wage labour: it makes us fat (and not in a healthy and well-nourished way).

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Obesity should be treated as a medical and social issue, as it is clearly caused by social conditions. Obese people should be treated like people, as their weight clearly has nothing to do with their humanity. Same with folks of any weight category. I don't know if that's too simplistic but it seems obvious.

What's striking is that obesity rates shoot up when modern, American diets meet populations which are not properly educated in dietary issues. Food companies have perfected the mass production of highly caloric food with little other nutritional value. When these are marketed excessively to people who aren't familiar with that diet (especially to children) it leads to a population getting addicted to food which is ultimately terrible for oneself. What Tenka mentioned about car culture is probably a piece of the picture too. I think the point is that we see obesity as something to overcome, but we overcome it by providing better social conditions like education and health services for people and not by berating or insulting them.

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/04/201342495251549557.html


Mexico City, Mexico - Mexicans have always loved to eat and drink, but rapidly changing dietary habits have created a nation in danger of eating themselves to death.
Mexican schoolchildren are now some of the fattest in the world, with one in three classified as overweight or obese - a 27 percent rise in 12 years, according to the latest National Survey of Health and Nutrition. Their parents also score high on global ranking tables - weighing in second behind only the United States.
Among adults, a staggering 73 percent of women are overweight or obese; men are only marginally thinner, with 69 percent "abnormally" sized. The National Survey reveals what is obvious to even an untrained eye: people of a "normal" or healthy weight are becoming a rare breed in this food-obsessed country.
Mexico's biggest killers are now cardiovascular diseases - including heart failure, myocardial infarctions (heart attacks) and strokes - and diabetes. Together these accounted for 150,000 deaths in 2012, according to World Health Organisation figures.
Yet only 40 years ago, the main causes of death here were malnutrition and infectious diseases. The speed at which Mexicans have made the change from a diet dominated by maize and beans to one that bursts at the seams with processed fats and sugars poses one of the greatest challenges to public health officials.
"No other country has grown like Mexico," said Juan Rivera Dommarco, assistant director of the Centre of Investigation in Nutrition and Health at the National Institute of Public Health. "It has taken Mexico only 12 years or so to do what other countries needed 60 years for."
Fried food and soda
There are about 21 million clinically obese adults in Mexico - that's an incredible 38 percent rise since 2000, the health survey reveals. Diabetes rates doubled in this period - one of the most rapid growths seen anywhere in the world. You don't have to look further than the bustling streets of any town or city to start to understand why.
"My daughters are always asking for refrescos, but I try to lead by example so the whole family only drinks water or fresh juices... The streets are full of fatty foods because Mexicans don't want to eat vegetables any more.
- Abraham Cruz Diaz, carpenter

The pavements are saturated with vendors selling calorific snacks: deep-fried pork skin, beef tacos, doughnuts, ice cream, quesadillas filled with cheese, hot dogs, hamburgers, with freshly made potato crisps, and deep-fried plantain - sometimes the only vegetables in sight.
The nation's famous sweet tooth has been successfully exploited by the fizzy drinks industry. Mexicans drink more "refrescos" than any other country. Seven out of ten children in rural communities have a sugary drink with breakfast, according to the campaign group Power of the Consumer.
Research presented at an American Heart Association conference in March found that sugary drinks accounted for 22,000 deaths in Mexico every year - the highest rate in the world. The television, billboards and markets are awash with advertisements, in Spanish and indigenous languages, for processed snacks and sugary drinks by companies such as Nestle, Pepsi, Coca Cola and Bimbo.
Children in particular are bombarded with advertisements, with few regulations to restrict marketing. Abraham Cruz Diaz, a 44-year-old carpenter with daughters aged five and eight, said the ads targeting children are relentless.
"My daughters are always asking for refrescos, but I try to lead by example so the whole family only drinks water or fresh juices.
"It is hard always saying no: refrescos are everywhere and only five pesos [30 cents] and the streets are full of fatty foods because Mexicans don't want to eat vegetables any more. I try to explain that if they look after their bodies now, they will live ten years longer."
'Public health emergency'
Research by Professor Barry Popkin, a global obesity expert from the University of North Carolina, was the first to show Mexicans drink more sugary drinks than any other nation.
"Marketing of sugary beverages is the most important factor that we have found [in Mexico]," Popkin said. "Calories from beverages doubled between 1999 and 2006. Second, snacking is way up - again, probably a demand created by marketing. And third, the huge growth of convenience stores and modern mega-food markets."
Though traditionally regarded as a rich-man's disease, diabetes is wreaking havoc in low- and middle-income countries, where four out of five diabetics now live, according to the International Diabetes Federation.
In Mexico, 6.4 million - or one in 10 - adults is diagnosed with diabetes, the sixth-highest rate in the world. Another 3.6 million people are thought to have the disease, but are unaware.
Health Minister Mercedes Juan Lopez recently described the massive rise incidence as a "true public health emergency".
A genetic predisposition means Mexicans are more prone to diabetes than Caucasians. Even among those who are diagnosed, figures from the national survey suggest three-quarters have poorly controlled blood sugar levels, placing them at a much higher risk of long-term disabling and fatal complications. Already it is the biggest-single cause of blindness in adults and a major cause of amputations, said the Mexican Diabetes Federation.
Dr Stan De Loach, an American diabetologist, has been treating adults and children in Mexico for more than 40 years. "Diabetes and obesity are the country's biggest silent deadly diseases," he told Al Jazeera. "But most people are so addicted to carbohydrates that they aren't willing to do anything about it until the complications set in, and then it's too late."
Government response
The government has introduced a range of measures to try and curb the tsunami of fat. In a recent speech, President Enrique Pena Nieto said: "We must banish this idea of health as a cure and move towards a comprehensive prevention concept, associated with healthy lifestyles."
Last year it introduced the so-called "sin taxes" on sugary drinks, and in 2011 published guidelines to restrict junk food being sold in schools - though a proposed list of banned products was successfully opposed by the food and drinks industry.
As part of a new national exercise campaign, the government enlisted revered wrestling stars to try to get kids active: Lucha Libre against Obesity. Currently, 60 percent of 10- to 14-year-olds perform no sport at all, according to the survey.
We must banish this idea of health as a cure and move towards a comprehensive prevention concept, associated with healthy lifestyles.
- Mexican President Enrique Pena Nieto
The government is undoubtedly alarmed at the spiralling costs associated with obesity. The direct and indirect cost is expected to double from $6.5bn now to $13.7bn in 2017, according to department of health figures.
Recent initiatives have been welcomed, but they fail to tackle the fundamental causes, said Alejandro Calvillo, director of Power of the Consumer.
"Formula milk, instant soups and sugary sodas have replaced breast-feeding, maize, beans and water, and children become addicted to sugar from a very early age. Kids in rural areas of Chiapas and Guerro are malnourished but overweight," Calvillo said.
His organisation is part of the Nutritional Health Alliance that campaigns for effective government policies to combat obesity and malnutrition. They want restrictions on the marketing of junk foods, improved food labelling, clean drinking water fountains in public places, support for local, fresh produce, and national campaigns to promote breast-feeding and filtered tap water.
"When 70 percent of people are overweight or obese, then it is not only about bad personal choices. Their environment is developing this epidemic, and so government policies need to change this environment," Calvillo said.
Despite the obesity epidemic, malnutrition still kills about 9,000 people annually, mainly young children in poor rural states. However, the Alliance is highly critical of the government's highly publicised Crusade against Hunger. Pepsi and Nestle were announced as key partners, even before a scientific advisory committee was established.
For Professor Popkin, the two biggest challenges facing the nation's battle against the bulge are: "Getting major government action in the face of very organised food industry lobbying, and Mexicans' preference for extreme sweetness."
As for privilege, it's a vague concept which really refers to society being ordered around one particular category (i.e white, male, etc) of people over and against others, with that category being valued more highly. In that sense, if one construes the concept broadly, it seems reasonable to posit something like "thin privilege", although that says nothing about its social power and structure.

[Jimmie Higgins]

People considered "unattractive" in general are discriminated against in rather subtle ways. Peopel with frekles, red heads, dwarfs, men with male pattern baldness, people with bad teeth, people with deformities, giants etc. All things people are born with and can't control. Can most overweight people control their weight?Even if this is true, it's a big comment about competition in capitalist society to say that any percieved defect means that it will be harder to get work and survive.

But I think that there is a specific way that say, smoking or being overweight are not really "discrimination" in a vaccume, but are part of elitism in class society. Go to any gentrified area - go to Lake Merrit - and what do you see, 7 days a week, all hours of the day, professionals (mostly) white, jogging for hours. In the US especially weight has become associated with being lower class - smoking too, while health and fitness have become associated with upward mobility and being "fit" for the market.

So to then argue that it's not really important since weight can be changed - while true to an extent - is sort of like arguing that since some kids in shitty public schools overcome the material lack of materials and lack of time of their teachers and go to the library and educate themselves, then we don't really have a problem with schools. Or saying that someone went to prison and used their time to read and educate themselves shows that the prison system is about rehabilitation, it's just that all the other inmates are too lazy.

Most people can loose weight or excercize more, but it's a much higher hill to climb if you are working class: doing a service job on your feet all day; live in "food desert" areas where there isn't a whole lot of affordable quality food; never grew up with access to "fine dining" and middle class tastes in healthy food; had working parents so you had to teach yourself how to cook; work multiple jobs and so all your main energy goes to repetative tasks at a desk or standing or commuting.

[#FF0000]

All things people are born with and can't control. Can most overweight people control their weight?

By totally changing their lives, maybe.

[Decolonize The Left]

um, i actually have a lot of thoughts about this topic. and there's a lot of dumb prejudice here.

to make a comparison. my uncle makes six digits now. he was born in a poor household with 9 brothers and the house was so small some of them had to sleep in the kitchen's floor. what's with the "poor" people complaining here? they have it pretty good - live in the first world, have access to the internet - heck some of you have a college degree! crybabies!

you see what i did there? poor people can probably makee specific choices in their life that in the long run would probably help them career wise. like you know, not getting pregnant/studying hard at school, etc. however, why is it that most poor people stay poor?

that's because there's specific material and sociological reasons. if you grow up surrounded by violence, and alcoholism, where education is not appreciated, where people start families when they are 19, etc you will probably end up like that. for example, if you are a native american in canada, you can pretty much go to college for free ... however if you grow up in a reservation shithole, probably "going to college" is the last of your worries. however, in a more ideal world, sure, if natives only did the right choices...


obesity is actually very similar. yes, you can make very specific choices that will help you lose weight, with the right education and discipline. hit the weights to jack up your metabolism, eat a lot of fibers and proteins. avoid high glycemic index food that will make you feel hungry, etc. however, there are psychological and structural reasons why someone is obese. it's linked to poverty (congrats to the shitty white students that are "poor" and are fit, here have a cookie), self-esteem issues, etc. so yes, if you are able to overcome this things, and you eat less calories that you spend, yes you can lose weight. the problem is getting to that mindset....


anyway, i don't think "thin priviliege" exists. i think it's tumblr priviliege politics bullshit. from my understanding, "priviliege" as a concept makes more sense if a particular group gains some benefit out of opressing other groups. you could for example, maybe argue male priviliege exists cuz' dudes do gain some advantages from patriarchy that they wouldn't have if there was equality between genders. you know, like free domestic labor they don't have to do,super available sexual gratification, etc. you could also make a similar argument (although i dont know if i agree) with white priviliege - you know, colonialism basically. however, i have a hard time thinking why thin people benefit from putting down obese people.

anyway y'all suck bb

Great post.

On that note, however, I would put forth the argument that 'thin privilege' absolutely exists as thinness is a social ideal within our culture and hence being thin is treated as the norm within society. Hence all body types which fit within the norm (or reach the ideal) are privileged over those that do not. This privilege takes many forms but mostly has to do with the fact that people tend to treat others better if they find them attractive in some manner. And since social norms of beauty involve and encourage thinness, these people will be treated better on the whole.

It's certainly not at the same level as gender/race/sexual orientation privilege, but I think it's fair to say that it exists insofar as 'normality' exists as a repressive social function.

[Brandon's Impotent Rage]

One thing that has to be remembered about really morbidly obese people (the ones you see riding around on scooters) is that they rarely get that way by themselves. They almost always have an enabler, a family member or a loved one, who keeps giving them all of these high caloric foods long after the dangers have become obvious. Usually it's out of some sense of responsibility, or they're deeply in denial about the damage they are doing.

I've seen this alot. I live in the stroke belt, after all.

[Red Flag Rising]

People who joke about people are assholes, period.

I joke about capitalists and fascists all the time, am I an asshole?

I've got a couple of posters with capitalists portrayed as swollen fat oppressors, I think that is because fat is associated with greed -- the hunger for more than what you need.

if you think about it, people who eat too much are taking the food from the mouths of the starving. Hoarding resources that are needed elsewhere is a criminal act.

[NewLeft]

i'm not sure, there was a study showing an anti-fat bias in healthcare professionals, the general public and hr managers

unlike race/gender/sexual orientation.. you do have some degree of control over it. but should we fat shame? no.

the correlation between obesity and class is not universal, this relationship is not properly established in canada yet (outside of a few studies on children in inner cities and first nations)

[Red Flag Waver]

fat is associated with greed -- the hunger for more than what you need.
That might have been true in 1920, when every capitalist also had a monocle and a cigarette holder. As others have noted, fat is now associated largely with the working class.


if you think about it, people who eat too much are taking the food from the mouths of the starving. Hoarding resources that are needed elsewhere is a criminal act.
This is just silly. Are you really going to put a dent in world hunger by confiscating dorritos from fat people? It's like harping on poor folks for buying clothing made in sweat shops.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Capitalism is a factor in the rise of obesity in the US.

[#FF0000]

if you think about it, people who eat too much are taking the food from the mouths of the starving. Hoarding resources that are needed elsewhere is a criminal act.

yes if only people didn't eat so much then other people would be able to eat more.

that is the problem.

of course.

you are an idiot

[Jimmie Higgins]

yes if only people didn't eat so much then other people would be able to eat more.

that is the problem.

of course.

you are an idiot

And many people in places like the US who are "eating too much" are actually also starving:



You already know that far too many Americans are overweight or, worse, obese. More than one-third of us fit the last definition, and that number is expected to jump to 42 percent of Americans by 2030.

But here’s something you may not know: A whole lot of those people are hungry.

That’s right: They are literally not getting enough to eat. And they are definitely not getting enough healthy foods—full of essential vitamins, minerals, and nutrients like fiber and protein. It’s a paradoxical phenomenon that writer and activist Raj Patel has aptly named “stuffed and starved.” We look at very overweight people and immediately think they’re eating too much, instead of wondering what kind of food they have access to and what that food might be doing to their bodies and health.

Patel, who wrote a best-selling book of the same name (http://rajpatel.org/2009/10/27/stuffed-and-starved/), says “stuffed and starved” is a fairly recent phenomenon. Throughout most of human history, being overweight meant you were rich—that you could afford to eat well—but now it often means you are anything but.

“The irony is that in rich, developed countries like the U.S., if you’re poor you’re more likely to be overweight,” explains Patel.

That’s because the food affordable to people living on low and subsidized incomes usually has few of the nutrients the body needs to be healthy. And cheap food is often so processed you’re likely to feel hungry soon after eating it; so, naturally, you keep eating it. Inexpensive food also tends to be full of “empty” calories, along with too much fat and sodium, making it easier to pack on pounds. Add to that a sedentary lifestyle, stress, and other factors and you’ve got a recipe for the obesity epidemic.

Simply put, if the only food you can afford to eat doesn’t have what you need to be healthy, and it doesn’t fill you up, you’re likely to keep eating to feel satisfied. This perpetuates the “stuffed and starved” cycle.
Patel says there’s a clear reason why half the world is malnourished and the other half is obese: Both are symptoms of the corporate food monopoly.

“It’s a perverse paradox when we have more calories available per person than ever before in human history,” he notes. “There’s no reason for people to be going hungry.”

But they are going hungry, to the tune of one in six Americans. That’s 50 million people, which isa staggering amount by any measure.

http://news.yahoo.com/someone-both-stuffed-starved-040000204.html

[#FF0000]

Obesity is also becoming epidemic in poor/developing nations too so this whole "blub blub fat american first world pig problem" thing is bullshit too.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Obesity is also becoming epidemic in poor/developing nations too so this whole "blub blub fat american first world pig problem" thing is bullshit too.

There is actually a higher rate of obesity in Mexico now than the US. In a sense, it is an "american first world pig problem" if by "pigs" one means the multinational pigs exporting the US's low-cost low-nutrition high-profit corporate food model.

[NewLeft]

people put too much weight on food, not enough on pa (the reason why childhood obesity is declining in our city)

[Ceallach_the_Witch]

I've been overweight (and pretty conscious about it) in the past - given that I'm only twenty it's pretty easy to extrapolate that some of that period was probably when I was in secondary school - and cruel jokes about it don't fucking help.

Yes, i lost weight as I got into swimming and cycling, but I have a lot of people who have to put up with shit just because they weigh too much. I'm well aware that there are many health issues attached to carrying too much weight and I'm also aware that our society hypocritically pushes perfect bodies and the fitness industry on us at the same time as practically stuffing burgers down our throats - but ill-natured insults and *banter* do nothing to help anyone

[BIXX]

I am slowly heading toward overweight (from being in almost perfect shape) as we speak. I can't help it.


Anyone who argues that there is no such thing as thin privilege have obviously never been in a situation where they have been oppressed for their weight. I am trying to stay in shape but I can't. And this wouldn't be a problem if there weren't such a thing as thin privilege, cause then it wouldn't scare me so much.

I wouldn't be afraid to lose my privilege if I never had it.

[MarxArchist]

1. "Health" is polite liberal doublespeak for "biopower".

2. Fatphobia (directed toward all genders) is closely tied up with patriarchy. Fatphobia is implicitly misogynist.


Can you please explain the reasoning behind these statements? Thanks.

[Quail]

MarxArchist: I think what VMC meant was:
1) Healthy workers are more efficient. They can do more labour in less time, they're less likely to take time off sick, etc. Therefore it benefits the ruling class to have a healthy workforce.
2) The patriarchal beauty ideals are a strong, muscular body for men, and a thin but curvy in the "right" places for women. Obviously being overweight means that people don't fit into these categories. Thus fatphobia is a corollary of patriarchy.

[MarxArchist]

MarxArchist: I think what VMC meant was:
1) Healthy workers are more efficient. They can do more labour in less time, they're less likely to take time off sick, etc. Therefore it benefits the ruling class to have a healthy workforce.


Yes perhaps, yes.




2) The patriarchal beauty ideals are a strong, muscular body for men, and a thin but curvy in the "right" places for women. Obviously being overweight means that people don't fit into these categories. Thus fatphobia is a corollary of patriarchy.

No, perhaps no. If a woman isn't attracted to an overweight man or overweight woman it's the fault of patriarchy. If a man isn't attracted to an overweight man or an overweight woman it's patriarchy. What's the material basis for this claim? Are there actual people who have been writing scholarly papers on this subject? Can you provide some links? Or is this just another broad based claim that connects anything and everything to patriarchy? All I can find is more nonsense from second wave sex negative radical feminists online who think they're scholars if they attach the term patriarchy to their argument. This one even wraps the flag of anarchism around it. How modern.

http://lifeinthepatriarchalmatrix.wordpress.com/tag/fat-phobia/
(http://lifeinthepatriarchalmatrix.wordpress.com/tag/fat-phobia/)

I simply don't find this attractive

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTqXOHLybyuHvNT5k8rN3MdRO4F8KaCM MEkDymyxdiwRqhjkPwuHQ

And since I don't find that attractive essentially what you're saying is it's a form of discrimination based in mens oppression of women which dictates all people must look like this:

http://www.shop.knuckledown.co/images/uploads/Muscles.jpg

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT_-TsFoLIqWv6U-MXvdS68tdga3OuBG2N517RjnCocJl1bcgeo

Which I also think is unattractive but of course we need to link the oppression of the corset with a universal claim that any or all lack of attraction to fat people is patriarchal.


If you don't find this attractive and if you find it somewhat comical? Patriarchy! (note, I'm 6 ft 2 210 lbs with a small beer belly- not as funny as the one below though. Whats not funny about it is he's probably going to die from a heart attack before he's 60. Or diabetes.) People are goingto lie in this thread and say they don't find that picture funny. Moral posturing I call it. it's necessary in order for many of us to hold onto some of our more absurd theories. I laugh at my beer belly in the mirror often. I look about 5 months pregnant. The patriarchy strikes again.

http://acidcow.com/pics/20090812/pics/8/ugly_people_10.jpg

[Quail]

MarxArchist, this isn't about sexual attraction. It's about shaming and policing bodies.

When someone is denigrated for being fat (and/or "ugly") it's because they don't live up to the beauty standards that as a society we have come to accept as the ideal. I don't see how you can deny that beauty standards in a patriarchal society are not influenced by patriarchy. In particular, much more value is placed on a woman's appearance, so deeming a woman less valuable based on her appearance (such as her weight) is very much a part of sexism.

[MarxArchist]

MarxArchist, this isn't about sexual attraction. It's about shaming and policing bodies.


A person isnt sexually attracted to this because most, to put it bluntly, think it's ugly.

http://lbbfinal.files.wordpress.com/2013/01/pictures-of-fat-people-1.jpg?w=620

The average healthy person doesn't look like this. In most cases where a genetic disorder isn't the cause of obesity it takes years of gluttony and non active lifestyle to get this way, as in, the woman in the picture probably did this to herself (just as I've given myself a beer belly).

If I become addicted to crack, as many obese people are addicted to unhealthy foods/unhealthy lifestyle, should I have the world treat me like I'm a victim? No, I'd be a victim of my own choices. A black person is born black, discriminated against for being something that is in no way shape or form a negative thing. For something they were born as. We all have different body types, my genetics make it impossible for me to have this look:

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2012/281/0/a/emo_boy_3_by_nakiakami-d5h75il.jpg

I'd have to starve myself and burn off muscle mass. There are different body types that people can't control is my point. Diversity in these sorts of natural body types is a good thing and should be celebrated/accepted but to make excuses for obesity is just another realm the left enters that needs to be 'left' alone. Then to blame any and all negativity aimed at the obese on patriarchy is even more absurd. I'm done with this thread/

[Hermes]

No offense, but don't you think you're missing the point? Quail just said it isn't about sexual attraction. You can recognize that most people wouldn't find your examples attractive, and still agree that it's wrong for them to be shamed/policed.

Just because a person might not be conventionally beautiful doesn't mean that they are worth less, which I think is what Quail was arguing, and which I think does happen in our society.

[MarxArchist]

No offense, but don't you think you're missing the point? Quail just said it isn't about sexual attraction. You can recognize that most people wouldn't find your examples attractive, and still agree that it's wrong for them to be shamed/policed.

Just because a person might not be conventionally beautiful doesn't mean that they are worth less, which I think is what Quail was arguing, and which I think does happen in our society.

We can't create a utopia where peoples poor choices are nurtured and coddled. Sure it's not nice to make fun of an obese person but social shame plays a role in society. Next we'll be making excuses for drug addiction. "Ya, they're losing their mind, might die soon, look like a skeleton but lets not shame/police that". Anyhow, the world is cruel. People make fun of what they perceive to be ugly. This was my point. When you said "You can recognize that most people wouldn't find your examples attractive" you realize most don't find my examples attractive because they are indeed ugly. Unfortunately people make fun of what they perceive to be ugly but that's not even the major issue of "shaming/policing". Even the suggestion that a person should probably lose weight is considered "shaming/policing".


I agree bullying obese people shouldn't take place. No one should be bullied but coddling them and creating an environment where their lifestyle choices are beyond reproach is absurd. And this time I'm really done with this thread, and according to the BMI index I'm overweight and this has everything to do with communism. I wonder why Marx/Bakunin/Engels/Lenin/Goldman/Berkman/Trotsky/Kautsky/Mao etc didn't address this issue? Marx wasn't exactly skinny. He should have at least addressed his own "oppression".

[Hermes]

For one, no one here is asking for the nurturing/coddling of a person's choices. All that's being requested is that they aren't unfairly judged based on their weight. Looking down upon/shaming a person who's overweight makes literally no sense if they're still able to perform their job (arguably, even if they can't). I don't really believe drug users should be shamed either? If they become addicted and seek help, sure, society should help. They're not really comparable, though.

Second, you keep bringing up attraction when, again, it really has very little to do with this discussion. I'm not sure why you think the constant shaming of other people based on "attractiveness" is a perpetual given.

I'd still really like to know why you think anyone in this thread is advocating "coddling".

-----

Sorry for the short responses, by the way, I'm cleaning my keyboard so am using the On-Screen one.

[#FF0000]

If I become addicted to crack, as many obese people are addicted to unhealthy foods/unhealthy lifestyle, should I have the world treat me like I'm a victim? No, I'd be a victim of my own choices.

Are you saying people can't face discrimination or whatever if something is the result of "their choice" or...?

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

We can't create a utopia where peoples poor choices are nurtured and coddled. Sure it's not nice to make fun of an obese person but social shame plays a role in society.

Yes, a negative one. If social shame actually actually motivated people to deal with obesity, then it wouldn't be such a problem. As things stand, all social shame does is make it harder by needlessly stigmatising people as well as making them an "acceptable" target for bullying and abuse.


Next we'll be making excuses for drug addiction. "Ya, they're losing their mind, might die soon, look like a skeleton but lets not shame/police that".

Shaming and policing are not the same thing, and you shouldn't conflate them in the way you do. If we want to help people who are obese or addicted to drugs, then we should be treating it as a medical issue without being judgemental pricks, because attacking and shaming people doesn't motivate them, it just makes them feel more like shit than they already do.


Anyhow, the world is cruel. People make fun of what they perceive to be ugly. This was my point. When you said "You can recognize that most people wouldn't find your examples attractive" you realize most don't find my examples attractive because they are indeed ugly. Unfortunately people make fun of what they perceive to be ugly but that's not even the major issue of "shaming/policing". Even the suggestion that a person should probably lose weight is considered "shaming/policing".

Indeed, why is it any business of yours? How do you know that the obese person you are admonishing isn't already doing something, or can't do anything due to their personal and medical circumstances (which is especially likely under capitalism where access to medical advice and treatment is not uniform)? Do you think that most obese people have somehow failed to notice that they're larger than average?


I agree bullying obese people shouldn't take place. No one should be bullied but coddling them and creating an environment where their lifestyle choices are beyond reproach is absurd.

Nobody is doing that. Obesity is a lifestyle/medical problem and thus we are saying it should be treated as such. Which means that berating people for their weight is at best irrelevant and at worst counter-productive.


And this time I'm really done with this thread, and according to the BMI index I'm overweight and this has everything to do with communism. I wonder why Marx/Bakunin/Engels/Lenin/Goldman/Berkman/Trotsky/Kautsky/Mao etc didn't address this issue? Marx wasn't exactly skinny. He should have at least addressed his own "oppression".

Now you are really bringing out the strawmen. Flounce away if you want, but you're just making yourself look like an ass.

[Ele'ill]

crack btw is a pretty bad example because yes

[MarxArchist]

Communism. Lets wrap the flag of communism around this.

[MarxArchist]

Flounce away if you want, but you're just making yourself look like an ass.
Not really. This form of privilege theory is absurd as are the people who are pushing it.

[MarxArchist]

It's not about just "making fun of fat people". Some people are equating thin privilege to segregation and what blacks went through, or what LGBTQ are going through now. Many are essentially using it as an excuse to rationalize their unhealthy condition.
Yep.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Not really. This form of privilege theory is absurd as are the people who are pushing it.

The OP and the thread title might mention privilege but the discussion has since moved on from that. Stop misrepresenting the argument.

[#FF0000]

Not really. This form of privilege theory is absurd as are the people who are pushing it.

I don't like "privilege theory" and don't think it's all that useful but it's not absurd to point out that overweight and obese people get a lot of shit that they shouldn't have to deal with because people think their situation is solely a result of their own personal moral failings.


Yep.

Actually literally everybody said "welp it's def. not jim crow/apartheid but".

Instead of charging down those windmills n strawmen please engage with what people actually say. You are constantly doing this.

[The Garbage Disposal Unit]

If I become addicted to crack, as many obese people are addicted to unhealthy foods/unhealthy lifestyle, should I have the world treat me like I'm a victim? No, I'd be a victim of my own choices. A black person is born black, discriminated against for being something that is in no way shape or form a negative thing.

The problem is that these things intersect. Marginalized people (poor people, radicalized people, etc.) are far more likely to be fat than rich motherfuckers. Access to a "healthy lifestyle" isn't a given - in capitalist society it's a privilege. In the same way that the war on crack was implicitly racist, fatphobia is implicitly a bourgeois prejudice.

Further, what's this language of victimhood? I don't think fat people are asking to be treated as victims, since that in and of itself implies that fatness is somehow "bad". I think the point is that fat people wish to not be stigmatized for their bodies.

That you would justify this on the sickening basis of pseudoscientific social darwinism ("Nobody wants to fuck that!") speaks volumes about the degree that your ideological hatred has clouded your capacity for critical thought.


Then to blame any and all negativity aimed at the obese on patriarchy is even more absurd.

Look at your own goddamn damn post. The fat unfuckable woman is basically your thesis statement. It pretty much speaks for itself.

[Rooiakker]

A lot of fat phobia is based on ableism.

When you look at larger international population samples, you can see that obesity tends to level out at a fairly low rate in most of the world except USA and a few other major powers. I believe this is a good indication of the difference between environmental and genetic causes of obesity.

I believe that obesity in the USA would drop significantly if veganism was accepted as a cultural norm. I'm not going to argue the ethics of the meat and dairy industry, but instead my concern comes from the fact that it is very inefficient. This would lift a massive burden from farmers in south America, both in labour and in the environmental strain. A large number of obese individuals live in food deserts, and if veganism became a cultural norm more vegetables would make their way into those places and provide better options for the locals.

Really though, thin privilege is more average privilege. I've had TONS of people give me shit for my weight, which is very very low due to medical problems. I'm told I'm unattractive because I am flat chested. People have literally screamed because my hands are so skeletal. I've even been denied medical care because they thought I "Just needed to eat more" or claiming I was "An anorexic junkie looking for a fix." Nothing destroyed my confidence in the american medical establishment more than going in the ERwith a BMI of 15.7 and leaving with a bottle of anti-anxiety medications. Luckily my usual GP noticed I WAS SO DEHYDRATED I WAS HAVING SEIZURES.

[TaylorS]

I'm a fat dude and I find this whole "thin privilege" thing just another example of bourgeois Lifestyle Liberal bullcrap. Many of these people claim that "they have a condition" that prevents them from losing weight, then eating a 3,000 calorie meal washed down with pop.

I may be fat, but at least I can admit that I have an over-eating problem.

[Popular Front of Judea]

I'm a fat dude and I find this whole "thin privilege" thing just another example of bourgeois Lifestyle Liberal bullcrap. Many of these people claim that "they have a condition" that prevents them from losing weight, then eating a 3,000 calorie meal washed down with pop.

I may be fat, but at least I can admit that I have an over-eating problem.

A CALORIE is a calorie. Eat too many and spend too few, and you will become obese and sickly. This is the conventional wisdom. But increasingly, it looks too simplistic. All calories do not seem to be created equal, and the way the body processes the same calories may vary dramatically from one person to the next.

This is the intriguing suggestion from the latest research into metabolic syndrome, the nasty clique that includes high blood pressure, high blood sugar, unbalanced cholesterol and, of course, obesity. This uniquely modern scourge has swept across America, where obesity rates are notoriously high. But it is also doing damage from Mexico to South Africa and India, raising levels of disease and pushing up health costs.

Metabolic syndrome can still be blamed on eating too much and exercising too little. But it is crucial to understand why some foods are particularly harmful and why some people gain more weight than others. Thankfully, researchers are beginning to offer explanations in a series of recent papers.

Wider understanding | Economist
(http://www.economist.com/news/science-and-technology/21586269-how-bacteria-your-gut-may-be-shaping-your-waistline-wider-understanding)

Yes I am obese because I eat consume too many calories and exercise too little -- especially since since I stopped doing manual work and went on disability. However it is also quite probably true that my genetic background and my mothers stomach flora also has a role to play.

I have little truck with 'privilege theory'. However I do have an issue with classism. Too often obesity is used as a class marker. It's not acceptable in most circles to directly mock the poor and the lower rungs of the working class. But the obese? Have at it.

The diet of the poor and struggling working class not surprisingly is strong on carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are cheap. Lean meat and fresh vegetables? Not so much. Coupled with less exercise than their ancestors for a number of reasons, poor and working people tend towards obesity. Ridiculing them is not going to change this.

[Art Vandelay]

words

First off, I just wanted to say that I agree with your post, but secondly I wanted to point out the accuracy of your claim that certain individuals genetic predisposition towards obesity, is quite clear. I don't experience that, but experience the reverse; I cannot put on weight regardless of how much I eat (I was even put on a high protein diet and a strength training regiment when I was a teenager and only gained half a pound over the course of a summer) but regardless people with certain types of metabolisms cannot control the way that food reacts to their body (ie: gaining weight) in the same way I can't control how it does to mine (inability to gain weight).

[Zealot]

Discrimination against overweight people can also leave lasting psychological problems and can even encourage the person to eat more, particularly if food was their way of dealing with problems in the first place. It's not always easy to lose the weight either under a capitalist system that already requires hours of your time everyday, charges extortionate gym membership fees, and makes unhealthy food the cheapest option for many people.