Venezuela gets violent

[Paul Pott]

Capriles has refused to recognize the election results and called his supporters to take to the streets to force the government to a recount. The opposition accuses the government of electoral fraud, and pictures of what they claimed where soldiers burning ballots have been circulating around mass media and social networks. Pro-opposition protesters are banging pots and pans with slogans of "Out! Out!" referring to the Bolivarian government, while others are rioting in the streets, attacking pro-government people, journalists, and setting fire to houses, cars, PSUV party offices, and random objects. Armed policemen have joined their ranks.

They are forcing entry to and burning down hospitals staffed by Cubans. Apparently many of the police in Baruta have defected already to the rioters. There have been two deaths so far that I've read about.

All my sources are in Spanish, but anyone else is welcome to post links.

[Comrade Nasser]

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324345804578424661289146792.html

Uhh heres a link AntiNihillist I don't know if this is what you were referring to. Apparently the coppers are rolling out to quell the protests in armored vehicles.

[Paul Pott]

^partially. The US has refused to recognize Maduro as president.

[tuwix]

It seems to be true. But all is rather under control. There was even attacked chavist television but they are broadcasting still.
Maduro's team was preapred for that. They showed reports that US related individuals were planning destabilisation. And it just happened...

[Comrade Nasser]

^partially. The US has refused to recognize Maduro as president.

That shit's cray lol

[Die Neue Zeit]

Why can't the opposition just wait three years if they're so desperate?

http://rt.com/op-edge/maduro-president-venezuela-election-reaction-883/

[Paul Pott]

Why can't the opposition just wait three years if they're so desperate?

http://rt.com/op-edge/maduro-president-venezuela-election-reaction-883/

Maduro's term lasts until 2019.

[Die Neue Zeit]

I was referring to a recall vote mid-term.

[Paul Pott]

Ah I forgot about those.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Communist Youth of Venezuela and the Communist Party of Venezuela mobilize against anti-chavista capriles supporters.


VaecgDXLAlQ

[Brutus]

It's obvious they weren't going to recognise it as genuine.
It's always rigged when the right wingers lose. They're sore losers.

[Zealot]

Didn't Capriles say that he would not recognise the results before the elections even started? In any case, there's no doubt that these thuggish actions were premeditated by the US-backed terror networks of the opposition.

[RebelDog]

^partially. The US has refused to recognize Maduro as president.

If the opposition had won they would now be extolling the greatness of Venezuelan democracy.

[Q]

In either case, it is quite ironic that the US are lecturing others about elections now. I recall a certain presidential elections in 2000...

[Vladimir Innit Lenin]

Pathetic. These horseshits don't give two hoots about democracy; as usual, capitalism inspires its supporters - bourgeois and naive workers - to shit all over democracy and democratic processes. As long as they win. :rolleyes:

[Delenda Carthago]

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/537084_10151428433552800_1047642406_n.jpg


edit:stupid me.

[Delenda Carthago]

http://sphotos-b.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash3/537084_10151428433552800_1047642406_n.jpg


Traitor militaries caught in 6 states burning Capriles votes.
LOL. WTF did I just wrote? I m sorry, I just woke up.:blushing:

Of course these are Maduro votes. I m really sorry for the mix.

[Q]

LOL. WTF did I just wrote? I m sorry, I just woke up.:blushing:

Of course these are Maduro votes. I m really sorry for the mix.

How do you know?

[Rusty Shackleford]

that photo shows one glaring fault.



if it were real, they would have done more than burn bags of votes in open air for a dude with a camera to photograph.



EDIT: The Hospitals (CDIs or Neighborhood Clinics) were set up dunrg the chavez years and were staffed by cubans to provide and expand the reach of health care in Venezuela. Caprilesistas are claiming Capriles votes were being hidden in these clinics and possibly PSUV offices and were therefore attacks, usually burnt. a minimum of 19 clinics have been burnt yesterday.

[Delenda Carthago]

How do you know?
The photo was sent from a friend of mine who has a family member living in venezuela. The climax she described me fits just fine with the public burning of votes. Completely terror. The guy over there also sended all the info needed in case she has to go look for him in the embassy. Its that crazy over there.

[Orange Juche]

One day passes, and the world feels 100% shittier. Damn.

[G-Dogg]

LOL. WTF did I just wrote? I m sorry, I just woke up.:blushing:

Of course these are Maduro votes. I m really sorry for the mix.

The photo was sent from a friend of mine who has a family member living in venezuela. The climax she described me fits just fine with the public burning of votes. Completely terror. The guy over there also sended all the info needed in case she has to go look for him in the embassy. Its that crazy over there.

Bullshit. Those are votes from 2009 and earlier elections which weren't contested and they were burned in 2010. That picture is 3 years old.

[La Guaneña]

The pictures are of the destruction of old election material.

http://www.psuv.org.ve/temas/noticias/usan-fotos-destruccion-material-electoral-comicios-anteriores-para-impulsar-tesis-fraude-fotos/


I hear rumors on Facebook that a PSUV cadre, Luiz Ponce, has been killed.

[La Guaneña]

I hope the PSUV sticks to smart tactics as it has before. At least it seems like the millitias, army and PCV are rallied tight with Maduro, I don't think a coup now is going to be easy.

[Delenda Carthago]

Yeah, my bad about the picture. :/

[one10]

The Hospitals (CDIs or Neighborhood Clinics) were set up dunrg the chavez years and were staffed by cubans to provide and expand the reach of health care in Venezuela. Caprilesistas are claiming Capriles votes were being hidden in these clinics and possibly PSUV offices and were therefore attacks, usually burnt. a minimum of 19 clinics have been burnt yesterday.

How many people aren't going to receive medical care with the burning of these clinics?

Does anyone know if the clinics were in operation during the time of the attacks?

If so, these are acts of terrorism against innocent civilians by the right.

[GerrardWinstanley]

Beyond parody. Here are the anti-Chavistas asking the US and Israel to step in and help.
https://twitter.com/ReinaldoI/status/324148622709121026/photo/1

[~Spectre]

The right wing is claiming that ballots are being burned, which makes no sense, since the Venezuelan machines produce two records, an electronic one, AND the ballot. So burning ballots would only undermine the government victory, not strengthen it. This is why they're reduced to tweeting around old or photoshopped pictures of ballot burnings.

Capriles was caught by the AP meeting with military commanders during election night, and his shady behavior of proclaiming vote prior to any vote counting, and of calling for the military to step in against "the illegitimate government", seems to confirm the theory that the opposition will try to launch a coup.

[Paul Pott]

It smells like civil war is in the air.

[Paul Pott]

There have now been six deaths.

[Paul Pott]

Opposition pushes the ridiculous claim that uncounted ballots for Capriles are being kept in the CDIs, and guarded by the Cubans.

[Paul Pott]

Doctors have been kidnapped.

[VDS]

I'm not sure how to even talk about this. If this is true, then I echo was One10 said, it's an act of terrorism, pure and simple.

Is there any news as to what the Chavistas/Left Wing are doing to combat these capriles supporters?

[Flying Purple People Eater]

It smells like civil war is in the air.


There have now been six deaths.


Opposition pushes the ridiculous claim that uncounted ballots for Capriles are being kept in the CDIs, and guarded by the Cubans.


Doctors have been kidnapped.

Woah! Sources!?

[Paul Pott]

Woah! Sources!?

Twitter/Aporrea

[Flying Purple People Eater]

Twitter/Aporrea

Could you link them here?

[Paul Pott]

Is there any news as to what the Chavistas/Left Wing are doing to combat these capriles supporters? The parties of the Great Patriotic Pole, their mass organs, and community media are mobilizing a defense of media, party, and government buildings against these thugs.

[Paul Pott]

Well it's being updated every so often, you can follow it here:

http://www.aporrea.org/

[VDS]

Well it's being updated every so often, you can follow it here:

http://www.aporrea.org/

Thanks! I've been trying to follow this as closely as possible. It's infuriating the info I've heard thus far.

[Paul Pott]

^That site has just gone offline. Suspicious.

edit: it's back.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

For sources in English the Facebook "Venezuela Solidarity Campaign" has been decent at providing article covering the events.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

^That site has just gone offline. Suspicious.

Worked fine for me. It may be your computer.

[Paul Pott]

It's out again. Some sort of ddos attack?

[Paul Pott]

Worked fine for me. It may be your computer.

I've never had this problem before, and my connection is fine.

Maybe just high traffic.

[VDS]

I've never had this problem before, and my connection is fine.

Maybe just high traffic.

This is what I'm assuming. Page didn't work at first for me but is working fine now.

[one10]

Six deaths resulting from a democratic election? This is just sickening.

What angers me the most is hearing all these Cuban defectors that I work with claiming that "communist supporters are sons of *****es and deserve this". I'm trying very hard to not get into a physical altercation with these people.

It puzzles me when these people consider themselves as the "good" guys.

[Paul Pott]

Six deaths resulting from a democratic election? This is just sickening.

What angers me the most is hearing all these Cuban defectors that I work with claiming that "communist supporters are sons of *****es and deserve this". I'm trying very hard to not get into a physical altercation with these people.

It's puzzles me when these people consider themselves as the "good" guys.

There's a reason they're called gusanos.

[Paul Pott]

All of the Latin American left has declared solidarity.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

If this ends badly for Capriles, the opposition risks putting themselves in the dog house for another half a decade the way they were after the bungled coup in 2002. It is interesting that Capriles would throw away a possible, winnable recall election in 2 years and try to take power by street violence or a putsch, which is incredibly risky. He may have allies in the military or the police, or expect further international backing.

Perhaps if the MUD throws away their newfound popularity on a street protest movement which fails, Maduro will have an easier presidency as his competition on the right would have helped to discredit themselves. On the other hand, Maduro and the ruling party risks legitimating the protests if they handle this poorly

[Paul Pott]

Then there's the internal division within the opposition. If Capriles goes the peaceful route, he opens himself to political attack from the far-right, which could cost him his moral leadership of the opposition.

[Paul Pott]

They have murdered a militia member.

http://www.aporrea.org/actualidad/n227015.html

[Luís Henrique]

Police has been ordered to return to barracks; only the Army is supposed to protect public order.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Maduro forbade the oppositionist "demonstration" in Caracas.

Luís Henrique

[piet11111]

Hopefully this is the push needed to break with the conciliatory approach and smash their hold on the economy once and for all.

[Paul Pott]

So far there have been 7 deaths and 61 wounded.

[Delenda Carthago]

We need to find out what does the Communist Party proposes. Do they believe it is time for the next step or not yet?

[Paul Pott]

JAVU (Otpor wannabes) are calling for more violence.

[Delenda Carthago]

JAVU (Otpor wannabes) are calling for more violence.
Whats Otpor?

[Paul Pott]

Whats Otpor?

An organization of anti-Milosevic liberal students that had a part in overthrowing the government of Serbia.

They were created by the US, and their leaders went on to found other pro-US liberal militant groups.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mpnp-ZYwGLA/TDDRBb1o4qI/AAAAAAAAAB8/c7YgYRePDV8/S1600-R/javu333.png




http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7c/Otpor.png

[Paul Pott]

JAVU have been central to all of the recent violence.

[Paul Pott]

An interesting article I found a while back:

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2010/03/maldives-democracy-popovic

[RedHal]

JAVU have been central to all of the recent violence.

lol, isn't Optor's claim to fame and darlings of the liberal imperialists their supposed use of non-violent protests

[Red Commissar]

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/905334_133747950145560_430323541_o.jpg

Something that's been floating around among pro-Maduro crowds.

[Luís Henrique]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mpnp-ZYwGLA/TDDRBb1o4qI/AAAAAAAAAB8/c7YgYRePDV8/S1600-R/javu333.png

JAVU?

Yeah, déjà vu...

Luís Henrique

[La Guaneña]

We need to find out what does the Communist Party proposes. Do they believe it is time for the next step or not yet?

The PCV in their last National Assembly, with the presence of Maduro himself stated their support for the chavistas, while pushing for the overcoming of the bourgeois state as the only way to keep the bolivarian process moving forward.

Later tonight I'll translate the text to English for you people.

I didn't have time to check if they published anything today since I was at work, but I'll dig in a minute.

I do know that PCV and their youth militants are shoulder by shoulder with the militias and the PSUV cadres by the hospitals, campaign centers, Bolivar Squares and other strategical points.

Edit: look how convenient: http://www.pcv-venezuela.org/ is offline

[Luís Henrique]

The Miranda state-level parliament called Capriles Radomsky to resume his duties as governor in 24 hours, lest the place be declared vacant.

Luís Henrique

[Paul Pott]

Capriles has suspended his march against the CNE in Caracas tomorrow, and called for another night of banging pots and pans and violence.

[Paul Pott]

The Miranda state-level parliament called Capriles Radomsky to resume his duties as governor in 24 hours, lest the place be declared vacant.

Luís Henrique

And Maduro has stated he will not recognize a governor who does not recognize him as president. Burn!

[La Guaneña]

PCV, JCV and the FANB (Army) take back the CNE (National Electoral Council) from caprilistas:

http://prensapcv.wordpress.com/2013/04/16/video-pcv-y-jcv-recuperan-sede-del-cne-en-monagas-tomadas-por-caprilistas/

[Paul Pott]

I can't shake the feeling that something big is coming.

[Paul Pott]

Brazil has condemned the acts of violence in Venezuela.

[Paul Pott]

Diosdado Cabello: Any parliamentarian that doesn't recognize Maduro as president, we don't recognize them.

[Paul Pott]

Next Monday Venezuela will take radical measures on the electrical system. I assume they're referring to the near constant sabotage that has been taking place in the past month or so.

[Paul Pott]

Opposition terrorists (probably JAVU) are still attacking the metro in Caracas.

[La Guaneña]

Maduro announces that "We have defeated the coup d'etat":


http://www.pcb.org.br/portal/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5824:maduro-hemos-derrotado-el-golpe-de-estado&catid=54:venezuela&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook



Unrelated - videoclip by a rap group talking about the April 12 coup in 2002: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wU1bBkdKx_0

[Paul Pott]

A bit old now, but Rafael Correa announced that UNASUR will not tolerate a coup in Venezuela.

[DDR]

In 5 minutes will beging a "cohetazo bolivariano" (Bolivarian Firework Fest, I guess is the best translation one can do) called by Maduro. Let's see how it turns out to be.

http://www.aporrea.org/actualidad/n227053.html

I'll stay up a little longer, so if anything happens I would link anything as soon as I can.

[Paul Pott]

In Barinas they have detained 12 people with mortars.

[Paul Pott]

Cartoon from Carlos Latuff, a brilliant Brazilian revolutionary:



http://latuffcartoons.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/capriles-venezuela.gif

[Paul Pott]

Maduro denounces that the US embassy is financing violent groups.

[Paul Pott]

Mercosur declares total support for Maduro.

[DDR]

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BIA9tanCQAAwBkq.jpg:large

A pamphlet of the JAVU, oligophrenic nonsense for your pleasure.

[Paul Pott]

Those are the terrorists covertly set up and financed by the US that now have the blood of 7 workers, socialists, and patriots on their hands.

[Paul Pott]

The enemy are some deluded fucks, believing that Capriles "cleanly won" the election against all evidence.

[B5C]

I love that political cartoon, but could you PLEASE put that in a spolier tag please. The Size takes the whole screen.

[Paul Pott]

I don't always post cartoons, but when I do, I post huge ones.

[KurtFF8]

Barack Obama has come out and condemned this violence being perpetuated by the opposition. He said that attempts to destabilize Venezuela would not be tolerated by his administration and that various sources confirm the strength of Venezuelan democracy. He went on to condemn Capriles for instigating these acts.

/What the onion should write

[RadioRaheem84]

http://www.aporrea.org/actualidad/n227039.html


President Maduro: I am willing to radicalize the revolution! I will not let another April 11th!


April 16. - There is no agreement with the bourgeoisie!, So said President Maduro national chain from PDVSA. 'm willing to radicalize the revolution!. I have the support of a people, of an armed force of the Bolivarian Revolution. A true revolution can not compromise with the bourgeoisie. We have evidence that the U.S. embassy led the campaign right.


This is getting serious.

[VDS]

http://www.aporrea.org/actualidad/n227039.html
This is getting serious.

Maybe I'm looking WAY too into it, but the line you quoted intrigues me. A lot.

[Paul Pott]

I don't see how all of this hasn't seriously damaged the popularity of the opposition already.

[RadioRaheem84]

Wow if this descends into civil war then that really puts the nail coffin on democratic socialism. The bourgouise literally cannot be reasoned with. That is frightening at the lengths they will go to maintain their social power.

:crying:

[KurtFF8]

I don't see how all of this hasn't seriously damaged the popularity of the opposition already.

Well it will depend on the media war that is inevitable now. Lots of the acts of violence came from false claims of ballot burning, etc. Those same sources will continue to spread falsifications and see how they can continue to use this to damage the Maduro government.

Granted Maduro won an important victory here too in canceling the march that Capriles had called and Capriles/his camp backed down.

[La Guaneña]

Capriles' driver and bodyguard on the phone saying that he wouldn't recognize shit anyway and that "van a haver peos", or basically, "fights are gonna happen".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OnSYqamz4tc

[Paul Pott]

President Maduro has called on all of the country to unite to isolate the coup mongers.

[sixdollarchampagne]

Hopefully this is the push needed to break with the conciliatory approach and smash their hold on the economy once and for all.

If Chávez failed to nationalize the means of production, for 14 years, you can safely bet that Maduro, who is hardly a man of Chávez' stature, is certainly not going to try to nationalize anything, ever.

Maduro's statement, "I am willing to radicalize the revolution," really deserves to be discussed. In its own clumsy, unconscious way, it conveys an important truth about Chávez' rule for the past 14 years. That is, if the "revolution" needs to be "radicalized," then, it certainly appears, the "revolution" has not been "radical," up to now. Which is true; Chávez led a "revolution" that left bourgeois rule in Venezuela unscathed, that is, the country was a bourgeois republic, with a market economy, before Chávez became President, and it remained as such, during the entire period of Chávez' rule. So the "revolution" was actually less than real; it failed to make fundamental changes, over a period of a decade and a half.

[KurtFF8]

If Chávez failed to nationalize the means of production, for 14 years, you can safely bet that Maduro is certainly not going to try to nationalize anything, ever.

How does your conclusion follow here? A very strange if then statement...

[Red Commissar]

Looking back at history, I recall that back in 2007 Chavez lost the constitutional referendum on a similarly narrow margin. Did the government then demand a recount or supporters cause mess on the street?

[Paul Pott]

They have attacked a factory that produces medicines in Merida.

[piet11111]

If Chávez failed to nationalize the means of production, for 14 years, you can safely bet that Maduro is certainly not going to try to nationalize anything, ever.

Hence why they need a push.

The people are getting tired of waiting while the politicians are playing nice with the opposition.
That situation can not hold and now that the opposition tried to again overthrow the government i hope Maduro is forced to make a decision between the people and the capitalists and that the balancing act Chavez managed to pull off is going to end.

[Zealot]

The US-backed terror squads of the neoliberal fundamentalist opposition need to be dealt with mercilessly. Maduro should use this as an opportunity to get rid of the pests once and for all. Who in their goddamn mind burns hospitals to protest an election?

[Zealot]

Maduro states he will deny the entry of the fascist thugs into Caracas and challenges the bourgeoisie to overthrow him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA0Jrm1sBng

I love this guy. I don't remember Chavez ever using the word "bourgeoisie" very much (he preferred "neoliberal") but Maduro has used it in his speeches quite a lot so far.

[Brutus]

What a badass.

[VDS]

Maduro states he will deny the entry of the fascist thugs into Caracas and challenges the bourgeoisie to overthrow him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA0Jrm1sBng

I love this guy. I don't remember Chavez ever using the word "bourgeoisie" very much (he preferred "neoliberal") but Maduro has used it in his speeches quite a lot so far.

Is it odd that I'm sort of warming up and coming to kind of sort of like this Maduro guy? It must be something in the mustache.

[Orange Juche]

What angers me the most is hearing all these Cuban defectors that I work with claiming that "communist supporters are sons of *****es and deserve this". I'm trying very hard to not get into a physical altercation with these people

So, according to them: Fidel is a brutal violent leader toward dissenters, and this is bad. But when people who disagree with them winan election fairly, beat them up for being dissenters. :rolleyes:

[VDS]

So, according to them: Fidel is a brutal violent leader toward dissenters, and this is bad. But when people who disagree with them winan election fairly, beat them up for being dissenters. :rolleyes:

You've correctly summed up Miami in a nutshell. Though of course they DO rationalize it by stating that the elections are rigged, contrary to all evidence. If it doesn't fit into their view of the world, they'll deny it to the death.

[RadioRaheem84]

It seems like Maduro is much more radical than Chavez. That is striking!

[RedHal]

Is it odd that I'm sort of warming up and coming to kind of sort of like this Maduro guy? It must be something in the mustache.

the man is tall dark and handsome, and a former bus driver, what's not to like?

seriously though, he's not backing down and seems to be fighting back. Chavez was too conciliatory to the opposition. Chavez would offer them an olive branch, and they would slap him in the face (I'm sure with the backing and advice of the US empire).

[Workers-Control-Over-Prod]

In either case, it is quite ironic that the US are lecturing others about elections now. I recall a certain presidential elections in 2000...


Hmm...

Gvii2bvi_-s

[Rugged Collectivist]

Wow if this descends into civil war then that really puts the nail coffin on democratic socialism. The bourgouise literally cannot be reasoned with. That is frightening at the lengths they will go to maintain their social power.

:crying:

Don't count on it. If democratic socialists haven't come around by now I doubt they ever will. This isn't the first time something like this has happened. The same thing happened to Chavez in 2002.


Six deaths resulting from a democratic election? This is just sickening.

There's no evidence that it was rigged but I wouldn't call it democratic.

[one10]

Maduro states he will deny the entry of the fascist thugs into Caracas and challenges the bourgeoisie to overthrow him:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA0Jrm1sBng

I love this guy. I don't remember Chavez ever using the word "bourgeoisie" very much (he preferred "neoliberal") but Maduro has used it in his speeches quite a lot so far.

It must be the facial hair. We may have something better than Chavez here....

This revolution must be radicalized if it is to persevere! The opposition has already played their card and it is that of violence!

[KurtFF8]

There's no evidence that it was rigged but I wouldn't call it democratic.

In what sense (especially by Western Bourgeois electoral standards) was it not democratic?

[Akshay!]

Maduro recently said that he does Not recognize Capriles as a governor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ja4qDc6Fdc

Also, he said that he would take legal action against Capriles.

This, along with his use of the words "fascists", "radicalize", "bourgeoisie" etc.. suggest that he's a perfect successor to Chavez. (which is also why US hasn't recognized his victory).

[Rugged Collectivist]

In what sense (especially by Western Bourgeois electoral standards) was it not democratic?

Bourgeois elections can never be truly democratic. The fact that the ruling class is reacting this way to his victory only proves it. How could he win a democratic victory if the election was anything but?

I'm not blaming Maduro, his party, or his supporters.

[one10]

Maduro recently said that he does Not recognize Capriles as a governor - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ja4qDc6Fdc

Also, he said that he would take legal action against Capriles.

This, along with his use of the words "fascists", "radicalize", "bourgeoisie" etc.. suggest that he's a perfect successor to Chavez. (which is also why US hasn't recognized his victory).

Capriles should be held responsible for the damage caused and the deaths of those 7 people. He advocated the violence.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

I don't think you can say Maduro is "more radical" than Chavez based on his words. Hugo Chavez also used words like "Bourgeoisie", "radical", and "socialism" on many occasions. I'd be more interested in his history as an organizer among the working class.

Isn't it theoretically sloppy (even if its good propaganda) to call the opposition "fascist"? It's a bad habit on the lazy left to just call all rightwing politicians who are disliked "fascists" even though their ideological perspective may be quite distinct from the conditions of fascism. (edit there are presumably sympathizers with Latin American fascism of the Pinochet variety among the opposition but that doesn't make the whole opposition grounded on a fascist ideology)

[one10]

I don't think you can say Maduro is "more radical" than Chavez based on his words. Hugo Chavez also used words like "Bourgeoisie", "radical", and "socialism" on many occasions. I'd be more interested in his history as an organizer among the working class.

Isn't it theoretically sloppy (even if its good propaganda) to call the opposition "fascist"? It's a bad habit on the lazy left to just call all rightwing politicians who are disliked "fascists" even though their ideological perspective may be quite distinct from the conditions of fascism. (edit there are presumably sympathizers with Latin American fascism of the Pinochet variety among the opposition but that doesn't make the whole opposition grounded on a fascist ideology)

Fascist is probably the most misused political term, right next to Communist.

[RadioRaheem84]

It is but in this context it's used as opposition to democratic rule and the social program they're trying to instill. I mean what is a person up against an opposition this ferverent supposed to do, be technical?

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I don't think you can say Maduro is "more radical" than Chavez based on his words. Hugo Chavez also used words like "Bourgeoisie", "radical", and "socialism" on many occasions. I'd be more interested in his history as an organizer among the working class.

Isn't it theoretically sloppy (even if its good propaganda) to call the opposition "fascist"? It's a bad habit on the lazy left to just call all rightwing politicians who are disliked "fascists" even though their ideological perspective may be quite distinct from the conditions of fascism. (edit there are presumably sympathizers with Latin American fascism of the Pinochet variety among the opposition but that doesn't make the whole opposition grounded on a fascist ideology)

Exactly. I know the PSL have been abusing the term in regards to Caprillis. Its immature to be honest.

[Akshay!]

I don't think you can say Maduro is "more radical" than Chavez based on his words. Hugo Chavez also used words like "Bourgeoisie", "radical", and "socialism" on many occasions. I'd be more interested in his history as an organizer among the working class.

Isn't it theoretically sloppy (even if its good propaganda) to call the opposition "fascist"? It's a bad habit on the lazy left to just call all rightwing politicians who are disliked "fascists" even though their ideological perspective may be quite distinct from the conditions of fascism. (edit there are presumably sympathizers with Latin American fascism of the Pinochet variety among the opposition but that doesn't make the whole opposition grounded on a fascist ideology)

I might be mistaken but I think he didn't use the word to describe the whole opposition. - only the violent youth who were shouting meaningless things and wanted to kill people. (just like they did in 2002). We shouldn't forget that there's a lot of racism too in the opposition. I mean the use of words like Zambo is pretty commonplace. (as Tariq Ali pointed out in this article - http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/mar/06/hugo-chavez-and-me-tariq-ali)

After this when Maduro says that he won't allow the violent protests, the US news media would get a good excuse to say "see? he's authoritarian!!"

btw, I agree we shouldn't totally base our opinion about him based on mere words. I hope he'll put them into action soon.

[Red Commissar]

I was doing some stuff at the university and saw a copy of the Wall Street Journal, whose reporting on these things is usually pretty crap, especially in the op/eds which have been stacked with reactionaries and conservatives after Murdoch bought it out.

They had some going back to this weekend and each one had an op-ed by some person named "Maria Anastasia O'Grady", who apparently has an axe to grind with Chavez and other "left" leaders in South America, including more moderate ones like Lula and Rouseff in Brazil looking at a search. It's really mind boggling seeing these people's shit interpretations of the events there honestly, gives me a headache too.

The coverage on Venezuela has been pretty crappy all around, including liberal papers which pretty much follows previous elections and votes in Venezuela. Even those that are trying to be more neutral do not mention that the seven dead were killed by rioting opposition supporters, only that seven people died, and instead focus on the astroturfed students protesting and statements from gusanos. Unfortunately it is the latter who have more clout in English media, both due to the emigre communities and those opponents within the country that are more tech saavy.

Praise democracy when Chavez lost the 2007 referendum by a similarly narrow margin- which, AFAIK, Chavez didn't force a recount or cause a ruckus. Shouldn't a dictator that Chavez is said to've been rig the results then?

Then bemoan the death of democracy in Venezuela when it goes opposite of what you wanted. If one of the US's pets got the kind of violence Venezuela got they would've stood by the government, but here they still call for a recount.

[Paul Pott]

There has been another death. This brings it up to 8 killed by the cowards.

[Paul Pott]

More information about JAVU:


The Venezuelan government says that members of JAVU, which was created in 2007, act as violent "shock troops" in opposition protests.
The government also says that JAVU is the recipient of substantial funds from U.S. government affiliated organizations such as the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), the International Republican Institute (IRI), and the US Agency for International Development (USAID), with the aim of interfering in Venezuela's internal affairs.
Venezuelan opposition groups deny this allegation. They say JAVU is an environmental organisation and claim that Rivas is the victim of political persecution.
According to Venezuelan regional daily El Carabobeño, JAVU was formed to protest the non-renewal of private television channel RCTV's broadcasting concession in May 2007.
"In Carabobo there are 17 cells, each one formed by 200 people. It has a presence in 12 states of the country, and approximately some 80 thousand members," the report claimed.
Statements on the group's blog site have included calls for bringing down the Chavez government and a communiqué supporting the June 28 military coup in Honduras. However, shortly after Rivas' arrest, JAVU administrators closed down their own site.

[Paul Pott]

Capriles Falsifies Evidence in Order to Claim Fraud in Venezuela's Elections (http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/8665)

[Red Commissar]

Gusanos are bombarding /r/socialism and other subreddits critical of Caprilles with the usual canards of "YOU DON'T LIVE HERE", even to people who live there.

[Paul Pott]

Neither do the NED, CANVAS, USAID, CIA, or the globetrotting liberals who go around setting up groups like JAVU.

[Zukunftsmusik]

I love this guy. I don't remember Chavez ever using the word "bourgeoisie" very much (he preferred "neoliberal") but Maduro has used it in his speeches quite a lot so far.

Well, if he uses the word "bourgeois", he must be a revolutionary!

[Red Commissar]

Neither do the NED, CANVAS, USAID, CIA, or the globetrotting liberals who go around setting up groups like JAVU.

shhhh it's only Chavistas with spoiled foreign supporters

[Luís Henrique]

People are tweeting

#CarcelParaCapriles

(Jail with Capriles)

Luís Henrique

[Red Commissar]

People are tweeting

#CarcelParaCapriles

(Jail with Capriles)

Luís Henrique

Yeah they had that on their image too.

https://fbcdn-sphotos-d-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-frc1/905334_133747950145560_430323541_o.jpg

How is that trending? Here by and large internet liberals eat up the exaggerations and drama spinning. Look here for an example...

http://www.reddit.com/r/pics

One of the big topics there is started by what seems to be a Caprilles supporter and is getting lot of love there.

[La Guaneña]

More fighting in the streets. The burguesitos tryed to charge the CNE again, and got their asses kicked by the PSUV and PCV cadre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPH9gNMPSE0

At one point in the video someone tried to smash a car, but some guys with the PCV stones told them to stop because "they are over there, not here".

edit: it's hats, not stones, lol.

[Paul Pott]

More fighting in the streets. The burguesitos tryed to charge the CNE again, and got their asses kicked by the PSUV and PCV cadre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPH9gNMPSE0

At one point in the video someone tried to smash a car, but some guys with the PCV stones told them to stop because "they are over there, not here".

Good work ladies and gents.

[Zealot]

Well, if he uses the word "bourgeois", he must be a revolutionary!

Umm, you've completely missed the point. Maduro is unashamedly using words that harken back to the Marxism of the early 20th century without trying to replace them with an alternative as many "real" Marxists are intent on doing nowadays. This is significant for a few reasons because a) it is bringing Marxist terms back into mainstream language, b) it could indicate that he is versed in Marxist theory and c) is potentially a lot more radical than Chavez. I'm not one of those who feel the need to dismiss Maduro, as many did on Revleft, before the guy was even elected president, before he implemented policies, before anyone knows his political views and so on.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Umm, you've completely missed the point. Maduro is unashamedly using words that harken back to the Marxism of the early 20th century without trying to replace them with an alternative as many "real" Marxists are intent on doing nowadays. This is significant for a few reasons because a) it is bringing Marxist terms back into mainstream language, b) it could indicate that he is versed in Marxist theory and c) is potentially a lot more radical than Chavez. I'm not one of those who feel the need to dismiss Maduro, as many did on Revleft, before the guy was even elected president, before he implemented policies, before anyone knows his political views and so on.
Comrade, if you were to read speeches of many bonapartist nationalists in the 1920s, including such lovelies as Chaing Kai Chek, you would find all kinds of Marxist verbiage. Maduro was part of the very bourgeois government in capitalist Venezuela, under Chavez. He isn't going to be reborn as a Marxist any more than the Pope will be. And if you want to cite Castro as an example, don't bother. Without the USSR around, you will not see a nationalist/bonapartist foster the overthrow of capitalism.

Of course the US is fucking with things down there -- and this should be opposed by revolutionaries. But revolutionaries give no political support to capitalist countries.

[Zealot]

Comrade, if you were to read speeches of many bonapartist nationalists in the 1920s, including such lovelies as Chaing Kai Chek, you would find all kinds of Marxist verbiage. Maduro was part of the very bourgeois government in capitalist Venezuela, under Chavez. He isn't going to be reborn as a Marxist any more than the Pope will be. And if you want to cite Castro as an example, don't bother. Without the USSR around, you will not see a nationalist/bonapartist foster the overthrow of capitalism.

Of course the US is fucking with things down there -- and this should be opposed by revolutionaries. But revolutionaries give no political support to capitalist countries.

You might be right, but these words have clearly come to be associated with Communism and "Stalinist rhetoric", which is why they slipped out of use, and Maduro is now openly using them. If that's not a sign of the times then I don't know what is. Even if Maduro contributes nothing except allowing the entry of Marxist language back into the mainstream I would consider that a small victory because Marxist theory is pretty damn hard to explain when you also have the extra job of continually defining alien words to people. But again, you've dismissed Maduro before he has even begun his presidency.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

You might be right, but these words have clearly come to be associated with Communism and "Stalinist rhetoric", which is why they slipped out of use, and Maduro is now openly using them. If that's not a sign of the times then I don't know what is. Even if Maduro contributes nothing except allowing the entry of Marxist language back into the mainstream I would consider that a small victory because Marxist theory is pretty damn hard to explain when you also have the extra job of continually defining alien words to people. But again, you've dismissed Maduro before he has even begun his presidency.

He's a politician who just had a close election and is facing a major political crisis. His hyped up rhetoric is intended to motivate his supporters, its a tactic every political party on the planet engages in, it doesn't mean shit.

[Paul Pott]

Jose Luis Ponce, a worker killed while defending a community clinic, has been declared a martyr and hero of the fatherland.

[DoCt SPARTAN]

I would like to see if Maduro (after this fighting ends) makes any improvement to make a more self-dependent Latin America. And incorporate more socialist traits. And also take actions against to imperialist and capitalistic nations like US or Israeli as Chavez did.
......I hope but do have little faith in this plan.

[Rafiko Bingo]

If Maduro will indeed be more 'radical', would it also mean he will fully support the FARC in Colombia ?

[La Guaneña]

If Maduro will indeed be more 'radical', would it also mean he will fully support the FARC in Colombia ?

That would sure be a part of it, as a more radicalized Venezuela would bring more radicalized imperialism to the whole region, and the FARC would act as a counterweight to that.

[KurtFF8]

If Maduro will indeed be more 'radical', would it also mean he will fully support the FARC in Colombia ?

Well at this moment that would just mean supporting the peace talks in Havana, of which the PSUV certainly already does.

Ignoring these "well he's just another bourgeois ruler, they're all the same!" arguments (which are not only flawed but are inappropriate at this moment), we should instead focus on developments coming from Washington and the Obama admins claim that there needs to be a recount.

[sixdollarchampagne]

.... Ignoring these "well he's just another bourgeois ruler, they're all the same!" arguments (which are not only flawed but are inappropriate at this moment), we should instead focus on developments coming from Washington and the Obama admins claim that there needs to be a recount.

Chávez had fourteen years in office, during which to nationalize the commanding heights of the Venezuelan economy, and he refused to do so.

The "revolutionary" Chávez once, famously, told large landowners in Venezuela, "If it is yours, then it is yours."

So, yes, in terms of what it has failed to do, in nearly a decade and a half, the chavista regime was and is thoroughly bourgeois, and the "Bolivarian" "revolution," which has left capitalist rule in Venezuela completely unscathed, is simply so much flatulent rhetoric and hot air – completely meaningless.

What's flawed is the curious notion that, since Chávez abstained from making fundamental changes in Venezuela, his much more lightweight successor is sure to make big changes. Dream on, dear liberals!

The New York Times has published a paragraph on what Great Leader Maduro is like, as a person: "Each time he [Maduro] angrily criticized Mr. Capriles, sometimes working himself into what seemed to be near hysteria, shouting until he was nearly out of breath, often stabbing his finger directly at the camera. He compared the opposition to Nazi Germany, accused them of planning a coup, and said they hoped to bring about a civil war like those in Libya and Syria." [Emphasis added]

[La Guaneña]

Chávez had fourteen years in office, during which to nationalize the commanding heights of the Venezuelan economy, and he refused to do so.

The "revolutionary" Chávez once, famously, told large landowners in Venezuela, "If it is yours, then it is yours."

So, yes, in terms of what it has failed to do, in nearly a decade and a half, the chavista regime was and is thoroughly bourgeois, and the "Bolivarian" "revolution," which has left capitalist rule in Venezuela completely unscathed, is simply so much flatulent rhetoric and hot air – completely meaningless.

What's flawed is the curious notion that, since Chávez abstained from making fundamental changes in Venezuela, his much more lightweight successor is sure to make big changes. Dream on, dear liberals!


Yeah, because the decision to collectivize the companies was totally in his hands, as the president of a bourgeois state. I mean, who cares about all those pesky complex class mechanisms operating in Venezuela anyway.

Do you seriously think that if Chavez had nationalized everything and just made total destroy at any height of his government, the right would not have just kicked him out just as they have done with any president in the history of Latin America with courage to do so?

I want to understand why all of this need to be so unpleasant and point out things that everybody knows, while pretending to be blind in the face of others that are very clear.

The Venezuelan working class is clearly in a much more advanced position in relation to conciousness that 12 years ago, and that to me is clearly a sign of progress. Seeing Bolivarianism as simply welfare is frankly quite stupid, especially for the so enlightened revolutionaries from the USA and Europe, who clearly know more about what's going on in Venezuela than those naive communists there who just follow any idiot waving a red flag.

We are not fucking stupid, please stop treating us like little kids. We know that the venezuelan state is bourgeois, we know that the ruling class in Venezuela is the bourgeoise, we know that the proletariat must centralize the means of production in their hands, yadda yadda yadda.

It's just hard to take you serious when you say that "Chávez abstained from making fundamental changes in Venezuela" and spout that prolier than thou bullshit afterwards.

[Red Commissar]

Jose Luis Ponce, a worker killed while defending a community clinic, has been declared a martyr and hero of the fatherland.

The capridiots will probably just write it off as a false flag or something. Heck even the crony newspapers stress that only eight people have died so far, and that somehow said deaths are a distraction from Caprilles' birthright.

[Paul Pott]

Venezuela is not socialist nor can it build socialism. That doesn't mean it's not worth defending any more than the Spanish Republic wasn't.

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

Well at this moment that would just mean supporting the peace talks in Havana, of which the PSUV certainly already does.

Ignoring these "well he's just another bourgeois ruler, they're all the same!" arguments (which are not only flawed but are inappropriate at this moment), we should instead focus on developments coming from Washington and the Obama admins claim that there needs to be a recount.

What the fuck could be inappropriate on an internet message board? I sure hope this dude doesn't read my message and step down from power :rolleyes:

[Per Levy]

I love this guy. I don't remember Chavez ever using the word "bourgeoisie" very much (he preferred "neoliberal") but Maduro has used it in his speeches quite a lot so far.


What a badass.


Is it odd that I'm sort of warming up and coming to kind of sort of like this Maduro guy? It must be something in the mustache.

so revolutionary leftist are all in love with a social democrat because he says bourgeoisie and has a mustache. you really lowered your expectations didnt you? i mean most of you know probally nothing about the guy but that he says a simple word is enough for some of you to hang a picture of him next to marx and lenin it seems.


April 16. - There is no agreement with the bourgeoisie!, So said President Maduro national chain from PDVSA. 'm willing to radicalize the revolution!. I have the support of a people, of an armed force of the Bolivarian Revolution. A true revolution can not compromise with the bourgeoisie. We have evidence that the U.S. embassy led the campaign right.

so the head of a bourgeois state can "radicalize" a revolution if he feels like it, that allready tells me that there is no revolution to speak of. and for all of you who get excited about comments like this, as i see it its nothing else then a thread towards the opposition ala "if you dont behave we can always be a bit more radical". it means nothing and i doubt actions will follow this words.

[Luís Henrique]

He's a politician who just had a close election and is facing a major political crisis. His hyped up rhetoric is intended to motivate his supporters, its a tactic every political party on the planet engages in, it doesn't mean shit.

Well, of course. But other politicians would hype up their rhetorics with calls for law and order, references to God, or nationalist verbiage. Why would he use leftist verbiage instead?


What's flawed is the curious notion that, since Chávez abstained from making fundamental changes in Venezuela, his much more lightweight successor is sure to make big changes. Dream on, dear liberals!

Ah... but neither Chávez nor Maduro can actually make fundamental changes. As we Marxists know, only the working class can. And so, the fact that Maduro is much weaker and less charismatic than Chávez means that fundamental changes are more likely to happen under his rule than under Chávez.

I read people directly calling him to radicalise, to take this or that measure, to simply tell him what to do. With Chávez this was extremely unlikely, because no one would feel they had the authority to question Chávez leadership.


so the head of a bourgeois state can "radicalize" a revolution if he feels like it, that allready tells me that there is no revolution to speak of. and for all of you who get excited about comments like this, as i see it its nothing else then a thread towards the opposition ala "if you dont behave we can always be a bit more radical". it means nothing and i doubt actions will follow this words.

But, as we Marxists very well know, the head of a bourgeois State cannot radicalise a revolution. That's the reason heads of bourgeois States do not say they are going to radicalise revolutions. Then what's the reason that Maduro is saying that he is going to radicalise the revolution?

The issue is, the Venezolan regime, while being a bourgeois regime in that it is unable to set forth any aims and ends that are not firmly within the reach of an ideologically bourgeois comprehension of things, has no support among the Venezolan bourgeoisie, and has to rely on the support of the working class. At this precise moment, if Maduro wants to keep such support, he needs to say that he is going to "radicalise the revolution".

Sure, there is a distance between words and actions, and I am quite sure that Maduro would much prefer to solve his present issue - the squirmish with the right-wing opposition - without needing to pass from words to actions. But in the mid-term, the regime is bound to fall if it actually does not radicalise. Maduro's disasterous electoral performance is a symptom of that.

Luís Henrique

[one10]

so revolutionary leftist are all in love with a social democrat because he says bourgeoisie and has a mustache. you really lowered your expectations didnt you? i mean most of you know probally nothing about the guy but that he says a simple word is enough for some of you to hang a picture of him next to marx and lenin it seems.


I'm not sure if you recall, but many of the people on this forum weren't convinced with Maduro. His response to the situation in Venezuela has helped him garner some respect amongst the left.

None of the posts you quoted from other members indicate that they are holding him in the same regard as Marx and Lenin, that's a slanderous exaggeration on your end.

[Starship Stormtrooper]

Does anyone have any good articles on this in English (especially that emphasize the false nature of the ballot photos and that cover the riot deaths)? I don't personally support Maduro, but some of the right-wing shit spewing out of some of my classmates' mouths can't be correct and I want to rub it in their faces. Haven't been able to find much on my usual news sites.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

I thought Socialist Action did a nice piece on the elections. Not sure how much it will satisfy your specifics but it should be a place to start: http://socialistaction.org/2013/04/madero-wins-in-venezuela/

[Red Commissar]

It's been difficult finding coverage of this from "acceptable" sources to people (IE nothing from our end, unfortunately) that don't completely ignore what the opposition did on the streets. Most will mention seven people died (at the time), but refrain from actually giving context as to who those seven people were. It focuses more on the police response to the astroturfed student protest.

They've been distracted by the events in Boston but it also says that, for the most part, they aren't confident of the evidence that Capriles presented to show systematic, widespread fraud to be giving them enough coverage.

[Rafiko Bingo]

Well at this moment that would just mean supporting the peace talks in Havana, of which the PSUV certainly already does.

Ignoring these "well he's just another bourgeois ruler, they're all the same!" arguments (which are not only flawed but are inappropriate at this moment), we should instead focus on developments coming from Washington and the Obama admins claim that there needs to be a recount.

Do you think it is possible Maduro orders a military support to the FRAC if the peacetalk fails ?

[La Guaneña]

so revolutionary leftist are all in love with a social democrat because he says bourgeoisie and has a mustache. you really lowered your expectations didnt you? i mean most of you know probally nothing about the guy but that he says a simple word is enough for some of you to hang a picture of him next to marx and lenin it seems.


so the head of a bourgeois state can "radicalize" a revolution if he feels like it, that allready tells me that there is no revolution to speak of. and for all of you who get excited about comments like this, as i see it its nothing else then a thread towards the opposition ala "if you dont behave we can always be a bit more radical". it means nothing and i doubt actions will follow this words.


Who the fuck is putting Maduro next to Marx and Lenin here? And has it ever crossed your mind that the radicalization in his rhetoric might actually come from pressure by the bases?

[Rusty Shackleford]

I don't think you can say Maduro is "more radical" than Chavez based on his words. Hugo Chavez also used words like "Bourgeoisie", "radical", and "socialism" on many occasions. I'd be more interested in his history as an organizer among the working class.

Isn't it theoretically sloppy (even if its good propaganda) to call the opposition "fascist"? It's a bad habit on the lazy left to just call all rightwing politicians who are disliked "fascists" even though their ideological perspective may be quite distinct from the conditions of fascism. (edit there are presumably sympathizers with Latin American fascism of the Pinochet variety among the opposition but that doesn't make the whole opposition grounded on a fascist ideology)

one key similarity with the reaction to the votes that would make the caprilesistas fascistic is using street mobs, burning down political targets (PSUV offices, free neighborhood clinics) and murdering chavistas in the streets. It is also explicitly anti-communist.

it is a mobilization of the small capitalists with the backing of the big capitalists and an imperialist power in opposition to a left-social democratic process (that has the potential to shift farther left depending on conditions, if there were a more organized coup attempt, it would certainly push it to the left with the way things are going) that does have a ground work for some sort of dual power and is openly allied with Cuba and the PCV is a large player in the development of the more than 200 councils for popular defense that just came into existence this week.

[Rusty Shackleford]

Do you think it is possible Maduro orders a military support to the FRAC if the peacetalk fails ?

This would be characterized as a military invasion of Colombia. With all the consequences that brings to venezuela. It is no Soviet Union, it cannot handle a war with the US.

there are limits to practical solidarity in the real world.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Some comrades seem to think Chavez was a step in the right direction -- a progressive, etc. This is not true -- he was, and Maduro is, just another flavor of capitalist oppression for the masses of Venezuela. He is the class ENEMY. Just like Roosevelt in the US (there is currently a thread about him, btw), he co-opts the left and labor movement in Venezuela -- this makes him nothing more than an EFFECTIVE class enemy. Should Venezuela be defended against US imperialism? Absolutely. But, no political support to nationalist, bonapartist, capitalist regimes. That is an ABC if Marxism.

[La Guaneña]

Some comrades seem to think Chavez was a step in the right direction -- a progressive, etc. This is not true -- he was, and Maduro is, just another flavor of capitalist oppression for the masses of Venezuela. He is the class ENEMY. Just like Roosevelt in the US (there is currently a thread about him, btw), he co-opts the left and labor movement in Venezuela -- this makes him nothing more than an EFFECTIVE class enemy. Should Venezuela be defended against US imperialism? Absolutely. But, no political support to nationalist, bonapartist, capitalist regimes. That is an ABC if Marxism.

So what you are saying is that the working class in Venezuela is weaker and less organized than 12 years ago? Please...

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

So what you are saying is that the working class in Venezuela is weaker and less organized than 12 years ago? Please...
No, I am not saying that. I am saying that you need to have some kind of historical perspective to understand what Chavez and Maduro represent. If the aim is revolution, they have nothing to do with it, other than suppressing it. Tying itself to petite bourgeois nationalist movements have brought the working class nothing for the past century and a half. Your position and that of many on this thread is one of reformism. Land reform, social security measures, etc. are supportable. But any political support to Chavez and his party is class treason. It leads nowhere. The opposition party gets elected and pooooof, there go the reforms. Or, the price of oil tanks, and there go the social security measures. There is a qualitative difference between what Castro did and Chavez, or the Sandinistas. Perhaps because you have come of age in period of political regression you pin your hopes on the hopeless.

And Marxists did not politically support the Spanish Republic -- they fought for worker's revolution. Of course, the Stalinist, who had just entered into their Popular Front period, after an immensely unsuccessful period of ultra-leftism, supported the bourgeois republic. Gee that worked out well.

[La Guaneña]

No, I am not saying that. I am saying that you need to have some kind of historical perspective to understand what Chavez and Maduro represent. If the aim is revolution, they have nothing to do with it, other than suppressing it. Tying itself to petite bourgeois nationalist movements have brought the working class nothing for the past century and a half. Your position and that of many on this thread is one of reformism. Land reform, social security measures, etc. are supportable. But any political support to Chavez and his party is class treason. It leads nowhere. The opposition party gets elected and pooooof, there go the reforms. Or, the price of oil tanks, and there go the social security measures. There is a qualitative difference between what Castro did and Chavez, or the Sandinistas. Perhaps because you have come of age in period of political regression you pin your hopes on the hopeless.


Putting in the current process in development in Venezuela in the same bag of all populist and nationalist governments in Latin America and the world, claiming that it's all about "Land reform and social security measures" is showing some real nice ignorance on the subject.

You might want to read about the Manifesto put forward by the Grand Polo Patriotico, that talks about Popular Power, planned economy, socialization of the means of production and a cultural revolution to "eliminate and replace the bougeois culture".

It wouldn't be bad to also look in to the Worker's Councils law proposed by the Ministry of Popular Power.


But any political support to Chavez and his party is class treason. It leads nowhere.

Also, read that out loud while trying to imagine what other ways there are to "absolutely defend Venezuela against imperialism". Yeah, breaking up the radical anti-imperialist front is how to do it.

And no shit Sherlock, if you didn't say that if the oil prices get fucked Venezuela and it's left is also fucked no one would obviously know. If you tried to read anything coming from down there before saying these briliant things, maybe you would see the efforts to "develop and diversify the industry" and overcome oil dependency.

I don't know if you know anything at all about Latin American history in general, but the development of capitalism here did not involve the development of manufacture or industry in a relevant scale in most places, and Venezuela takes it even farther, and had to import even the most basic foodstuffs. So yeah, thanks for the update.

And if you can't see the "progressive" part in a government that has openly and actively helped the working class to advance, what the fuck would you consider a progressive one?


EDIT: The councils are not a proposition of the Ministry, but of the PCV.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Putting in the current process in development in Venezuela in the same bag of all populist and nationalist governments in Latin America and the world, claiming that it's all about "Land reform and social security measures" is showing some real nice ignorance on the subject.

You might want to read about the Manifesto put forward by the Grand Polo Patriotico, that talks about Popular Power, planned economy, socialization of the means of production and a cultural revolution to "eliminate and replace the bougeois culture".

It wouldn't be bad to also look in to the Worker's Councils law proposed by the Ministry of Popular Power.



Also, read that out loud while trying to imagine what other ways there are to "absolutely defend Venezuela against imperialism". Yeah, breaking up the radical anti-imperialist front is how to do it.

And no shit Sherlock, if you didn't say that if the oil prices get fucked Venezuela and it's left is also fucked no one would obviously know. If you tried to read anything coming from down there before saying these briliant things, maybe you would see the efforts to "develop and diversify the industry" and overcome oil dependency.

I don't know if you know anything at all about Latin American history in general, but the development of capitalism here did not involve the development of manufacture or industry in a relevant scale in most places, and Venezuela takes it even farther, and had to import even the most basic foodstuffs. So yeah, thanks for the update.

And if you can't see the "progressive" part in a government that has openly and actively helped the working class to advance, what the fuck would you consider a progressive one?
Big picture, if you are willing to settle for those reforms, that is all you will get. Uh, Venezuela did not develop like western europe or the US? Gee that's news to me:rolleyes:.

I consider the dictatorship of the proletariat genuinely progressive. Petty bourgeois nationalist regimes, in the end, provide nothing to the working class. What they do accomplish, is preventing further development of real class struggle. That is their raison d'etre. The workers of Venezuela have been tied by their organizations to the bourgeois state. The leftist verbiage about workers councils is BULLSHIT. Should the proletariat form real, independent workers councils and move to actually take power, it will be Chavez's army that will attempt to drown the uprising in blood. This stuff has happened AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN in countries exploited by imperialism. Can you learn nothing from the past? Are you too tied to Chavez to see this with any clarity?

You want to talk history of Latin America? What about the Allende regime in Chile -- Allende, on paper, looked a lot better than Chavez. But his Unidad Popular government was drowned in blood by the Military. The military that Allende had praised for their democratic traditions and neutrality in politics. At the critical moments, Allende would not properly defend the proletariat, and they paid with their lives by the thousands.
I'm sure had you been involved at the time you would have been indignant at those that pointed out the perils of supporting Allende -- he had better socialist credentials than Chavez, IMHO. But it was also bullshit. The workers need real socialist leadership, not warmed over, petite bourgeois, nationalist, ersatz socialist leadership.

[VDS]

so revolutionary leftist are all in love with a social democrat because he says bourgeoisie and has a mustache. you really lowered your expectations didnt you? i mean most of you know probally nothing about the guy but that he says a simple word is enough for some of you to hang a picture of him next to marx and lenin it seems.

Yes that's 100% what I said :rolleyes:

I mean it's not like we maybe are a bit optimistic, or looking at this from a standpoint OTHER than a completely dogmatic one where if something doesn't fit directly into your ideology, then it must OBVIOUSLY be nothing to note at all. It's not like there was a tinge of sarcasm in there either. But you know, here I am having to spell it out anyways.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Is there any more news from Venezuela or are yall just gonna argue about Maduro?

[La Guaneña]

The CNE informs that it will audit the remaining 46% of the ballot boxes:

http://www.telesurtv.net/articulos/2013/04/18/cne-de-venezuela-hara-auditoria-del-46-de-las-cajas-de-votacion-4221.html

Video of oppositionists opening fire against chavistas in the middle of the street:

http://www.psuv.org.ve/temas/noticias/video-realizan-disparos-contra-chavistas-plaza-bolivar-barquisimeto/#.UXC4DLUp8hs

[Paul Pott]

Maduro is in Peru to attend an emergency meeting of the UNASUR, where they will support Venezuela.

An interesting Tweet from Capriles, showing that he is still campaigning:

"We have talked to heads of state and chancellors about the persecution of the workers under Madurism."

[Paul Pott]

Also there are committees for the defense of the revolution popping up all over the place.

[Red Commissar]

Oddly enough on the english twitter #Maduroesmipresidente has been trending, though I suspect it's probably more from Capridiots and internet liberals being ironic with it.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Comrades -- the old adage, those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it, is hackneyed but pertinent. Chavez and Maduro are not new phenomena. We have seen their like all over Latin America (not to mention Africa and Asia) for over a century. Political support to them is suicide for the working class. I wish that were not true, but I know enough about history to be fairly certain about this. Revolutionary optimism is a great thing -- but this is reformist tailing of a petite bourgeois nationalist movement.

Is it conceivable that something actually revolutionary could come out of the current situation? Only if a section of the working class breaks from Maduro, sharply to the left. Then they will have to contend with his armed forces that will try to extinguish them. Is it possible that the working class might want to defend him against the right wing? Again, only by declaring their independence from Chavez and Maduro.

It worries me to see a level of discourse that almost sounds like Obama supporters in the US talking about the elections.

[one10]

Comrades -- the old adage, those that do not learn from the past are doomed to repeat it, is hackneyed but pertinent. Chavez and Maduro are not new phenomena. We have seen their like all over Latin America (not to mention Africa and Asia) for over a century. Political support to them is suicide for the working class. I wish that were not true, but I know enough about history to be fairly certain about this. Revolutionary optimism is a great thing -- but this is reformist tailing of a petite bourgeois nationalist movement.

Is it conceivable that something actually revolutionary could come out of the current situation? Only if a section of the working class breaks from Maduro, sharply to the left. Then they will have to contend with his armed forces that will try to extinguish them. Is it possible that the working class might want to defend him against the right wing? Again, only by declaring their independence from Chavez and Maduro.

It worries me to see a level of discourse that almost sounds like Obama supporters in the US talking about the elections.

Nationalizing key industries and setting up worker councils is suicide for the working class?

Chavez isn't a working class hero, but his efforts over the last 14 years should be applauded in comparison to that of other presidents across Latin America. His strong stance against imperialism and nationalization of key industries has assisted greatly in making Venezuela far more indenpendent than what it used to be. During his time as president, poverty has been cut nearly in half, the literacy rate of the country has improved, and the new constitution has made it so that health care and education are the priority.

Is it ideal? No, but one can't deny that his policies and Bolivarian Missions have helped the impoverished and indigenious population of Venezuela that was in need of desperate assistance after being ignored for so long by right-wing leadership of the past.

Chavez might have been a populist, but to say conditions for the working class and impoverished people of Venezuela didn't improve during his time as president is just wrong.

The problem with Venezuela is that it is still a very much divided country (as evidenced by the recent election and events that followed). The working class of Venezuela is becoming class conscious, but they are also aware that there is a bigger threat than Maduro and the Bolivarian Revolution. The creation of worker councils has given the workers more control in Venezuela and the implementation of participatory democracy helps give them a say in the politics of the country. None of this would've occured had Venezuela been ran by a right-wing puppet of the US.

If instead of Chavez there would have been an armed struggle, it would've been surpressed by the government of Venezuela with support from the US, just like the FARC in Colombia.

I can only hope that Maduro be more radical than Chavez. While I'm not a proponent of reformism, this may just be the best solution for Venezuela at the moment. Some people seem to forget the imperialist presence of the United States in Latin America and their power and ability to supress any radical/armed leftist movement in Latin America.

Unfortunatley the US is a world super power that will stop at nothing to protect it's own capitalistic interests. Until the United States changes it's imperialist ways (which I don't see happening until the collapse of it), there is little to no chance of any armed leftist struggle being victorious in Latin America.

[TheGodlessUtopian]

Today is when Maduro is inaugurated as president. I wonder if the opposition will try anything "risky".

[one10]

Latin America's biggest struggle isn't against capitalism, it is against the imperialism that forces capitalism on them!

Once the imperialists are out of Latin America, it will be free to pave it's own revolutionary path.

[The Jay]

Latin America's biggest struggle isn't against capitalism, it is against the imperialism that forces capitalism on them!

Once the imperialists are out of Latin America, it will be free to pave it's own revolutionary path.

No. All that would do would be to shift the power from foreign capitalists to domestic ones. In fact, it would probably be more difficult to unite the working class against the domestic bourgeois once they get to spinning politics in their favor. I don't think that propping up the bourgeoisie is something that a socialist should support.

[Paul Pott]

one10, you're missing the point. Venezuela is an anti-imperialist social democracy, not a workers state.

[one10]

No. All that would do would be to shift the power from foreign capitalists to domestic ones. In fact, it would probably be more difficult to unite the working class against the domestic bourgeois once they get to spinning politics in their favor. I don't think that propping up the bourgeoisie is something that a socialist should support.

You're right, it is definitely much easier for the working class to overthrow a government backed and supported by the United States. :rolleyes:


one10, you're missing the point. Venezuela is an anti-imperialist social democracy, not a workers state.

I never said it was a workers state.

[The Jay]

You're right, it is definitely much easier for the working class to overthrow a government backed and supported by the United States. :rolleyes:

I know I'm right, but you don't know why. If the domestic bourgeois attain power they will be forced by Capitalism to make the maximum amount of profit possible. This will force them to seek investment and association with capitalists and governments that will enable them to achieve their ends, accumulating wealth. Over time - maybe not long - they will become beholden to those with more capital than they in the hopes of joining them in their luxury. The ones that they will go to will be richer companies, individuals, and governments. Rather than having overt imperialism, there will be more subtle imperialism - possibly a more effective one. What you are supporting is just a different path of neoliberal domination.

[one10]

I know I'm right, but you don't know why. If the domestic bourgeois attain power they will be forced by Capitalism to make the maximum amount of profit possible. This will force them to seek investment and association with capitalists and governments that will enable them to achieve their ends, accumulating wealth. Over time - maybe not long - they will become beholden to those with more capital than they in the hopes of joining them in their luxury. The ones that they will go to will be richer companies, individuals, and governments. Rather than having overt imperialism, there will be more subtle imperialism - possibly a more effective one. What you are supporting is just a different path of neoliberal domination.

The working class would still be exploited and oppressed, only this time when they revolt, their struggle would be against the ruling class and the government that supports them without intervention from an imperialist super power.

Actually, in accordance with Marxist theory, the best thing that can happen in those Latin American countries is for domestic capitalism to develop, it would set the stage for a successful revolution by the working class (which is the point I was trying to make in my previous post).

Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism and is much harder to defeat.

EDIT: Do yourself a favor and think about all the armed leftist movements around the world that have been destroyed by counter-revolutionary activity supported and assisted by the United States.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

No, no, no. You are completely missing my point, comrade one10. Nationalizations and even workers' councils are neither here nor there abstracted from their political content. The danger to the Venezuelan working class is hitching their wagon to an alien class force. It is like saying that support for FDR in the US was warranted by revolutionaries because he signed the Social Security act into law. While conditions for the masses have improved under Chavez that does not mean Chavezism poses complete dead-end for the proletariat. Conditions in the US improved for many during the 1950s under Eisenhower. Does that mean he should have been supported by revolutionaries. Might I kindly suggest you might read a little Marx and Lenin (esp. Lenin) about the independence of the working class?

And your formulation about Venezuela's next stage after a revolution is CAPITALISM? This is not Marxism. This is Menshevism at its worst. Please do a little research on "The Permanent Revolution." In the age of imperialism, you are right, the domestic bourgeoisie of neo-colonies will have a hard time even achieving the basic markers of say, the French Revolution. Because they will be attacked from without. That's why you need an internationalist perspective of spreading the revolution -- throughout Latin America and on to the US. If you don't have the stomach for that -- stick with Chavez, he's the best you will ever do, based on your current political stance.

[The Jay]

The working class would still be exploited and oppressed, only this time when they revolt, their struggle would be against the ruling class and the government that supports them without intervention from an imperialist super power.

What makes you think that? If the local bourgeois thinks that their hegemony is threatened they will call upon the militaries of other nations to defend their interests. Why would the capitalists of the United States allow a socialist revolution to develop in a prospective client state for the reasons I listed above?

They would not. All that you are advocating is more autonomy for the local bourgeoisie than previously. By focusing on foreign influence you are masking the issue because the real problem is the domination of capital and not where it is from. For that you would have to bring up a specific circumstance to demonstrate the exact need and argument for siding with the bourgeois, but I don't think that such a scenario exists or would be practical - let alone the only option.


Actually, in accordance with Marxist theory, the best thing that can happen in those Latin American countries is for domestic capitalism to develop, it would set the stage for a successful revolution by the working class (which is the point I was trying to make in my previous post).

This demonstrates my point. You are supporting Capitalism.


Imperialism is the highest stage of capitalism and is much harder to defeat.

Slogan dropping won't help.

[The Jay]

EDIT: Do yourself a favor and think about all the armed leftist movements around the world that have been destroyed by counter-revolutionary activity supported and assisted by the United States.

I know about those, but do yourself a favor and think of how many bourgeois states have allowed domestic revolutions to go forward without calling on aid from other capitalist nations.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Why do people think a political movement needs to be EITHER Bourgeois OR Petit Bourgeois OR Proletarian? Parties can be riddled with internal contradiction ... they don't have to be these movements with a coherent and permanent class basis.


one key similarity with the reaction to the votes that would make the caprilesistas fascistic is using street mobs, burning down political targets (PSUV offices, free neighborhood clinics) and murdering chavistas in the streets. It is also explicitly anti-communist.

it is a mobilization of the small capitalists with the backing of the big capitalists and an imperialist power in opposition to a left-social democratic process (that has the potential to shift farther left depending on conditions, if there were a more organized coup attempt, it would certainly push it to the left with the way things are going) that does have a ground work for some sort of dual power and is openly allied with Cuba and the PCV is a large player in the development of the more than 200 councils for popular defense that just came into existence this week.

Sure there are fascistic elements but I think that there are as many people in the opposition who are ideologically neoliberal and conservative. There are often elements that seem fascistic. The targeting of Cuban health clinics was particularly telling, as was shooting at random PSUV members.

However, I don't think that they're united behind a fascist ideology, and there's the lack of the structural and institutional components of fascism (like shock troops on the street, significant infiltration of the police and military apparatus, etc)

[The Jay]

Why do people think a political movement needs to be EITHER Bourgeois OR Petit Bourgeois OR Proletarian? Parties can be riddled with internal contradiction ... they don't have to be these movements with a coherent and permanent class basis.

I agree with this. :thumbup1:


Sure there are fascistic elements but I think that there are as many people in the opposition who are ideologically neoliberal and conservative. There are often elements that seem fascistic. The targeting of Cuban health clinics was particularly telling, as was shooting at random PSUV members.

What exactly do you mean by fascistic elements? Violence against the Left doesn't have to be from fascists. Liberals are just as capable.


However, I don't think that they're united behind a fascist ideology, and there's the lack of the structural and institutional components of fascism (like shock troops on the street, significant infiltration of the police and military apparatus, etc)

While those things have characterized Fascism in the past, those actions are merely their strategy for implementing their ideology and - correct me if I am wrong - not directly spelled out in the ideology itself.

[one10]

No, no, no. You are completely missing my point, comrade one10. Nationalizations and even workers' councils are neither here nor there abstracted from their political content. The danger to the Venezuelan working class is hitching their wagon to an alien class force. It is like saying that support for FDR in the US was warranted by revolutionaries because he signed the Social Security act into law. While conditions for the masses have improved under Chavez that does not mean Chavezism poses complete dead-end for the proletariat. Conditions in the US improved for many during the 1950s under Eisenhower. Does that mean he should have been supported by revolutionaries. Might I kindly suggest you might read a little Marx and Lenin (esp. Lenin) about the independence of the working class?

And your formulation about Venezuela's next stage after a revolution is CAPITALISM? This is not Marxism. This is Menshevism at its worst. Please do a little research on "The Permanent Revolution." In the age of imperialism, you are right, the domestic bourgeoisie of neo-colonies will have a hard time even achieving the basic markers of say, the French Revolution. Because they will be attacked from without. That's why you need an internationalist perspective of spreading the revolution -- throughout Latin America and on to the US. If you don't have the stomach for that -- stick with Chavez, he's the best you will ever do, based on your current political stance.

You and Triceramarx seem to be taking everything I'm writing out of context and ignoring the fact that I said Chavez's methods aren't ideal.

My argument is that imperialism is and always has been Latin America's greatest enemy and that revolutionaries should support anti-imperialism in the region.

You claim to be well versed in history but seem to forget US intervention in Latin America dating back to the late 1800s. From a historical perspective, do you honestly believe that an armed leftist overthrow of a government in Latin America would be victorious today?

[The Jay]

You and Triceramarx seem to be taking everything I'm writing out of context and ignoring the fact that I said Chavez's methods aren't ideal.

I wasn't talking specifically about Chavez. I was talking about supporting anti-imp over revolution.


My argument is that imperialism is and always has been Latin America's greatest enemy and that revolutionaries should support anti-imperialism in the region.

Why, what reasoning are you using for this that convinced you that revolutionaries should support bourgeois revolutions as opposed to proletarian ones?


From a historical perspective, do you honestly believe that an armed leftist overthrow of a government in Latin America would be victorious today?

My earlier point is that it wouldn't matter whether or not the nations were directly dominated or economically dominated. The capitalists wouldn't take kindly to a leftist revolt regardless of their relations towards the other capitalists.

[one10]

What makes you think that? If the local bourgeois thinks that their hegemony is threatened they will call upon the militaries of other nations to defend their interests. Why would the capitalists of the United States allow a socialist revolution to develop in a prospective client state for the reasons I listed above?


Did you miss the part where we are hypothetically speaking about the United States not being an imperialist super power?



They would not. All that you are advocating is more autonomy for the local bourgeoisie than previously. By focusing on foreign influence you are masking the issue because the real problem is the domination of capital and not where it is from. For that you would have to bring up a specific circumstance to demonstrate the exact need and argument for siding with the bourgeois, but I don't think that such a scenario exists or would be practical - let alone the only option.

First of all, I'm not siding with the bourgeois. You keep taking everything I'm saying out of context. If you continue to do so, I refuse to discuss this topic further with you.

I'm simply arguing that it is in favor of socialist movements to overthrow a local bourgeois in one's country rather than an imperialist one. Hence why we should support anti-imperialist efforts in Latin America.

Marx argued that revolution would first occur in developed countries, Lenin said otherwise and while he may have been right, what happens when a socialist revolution occurs in one of these under developed nations while it is being exploited by an imperialist capitalist SUPER power? History shows us that they will intervene.




This demonstrates my point. You are supporting Capitalism.

Another example of you taking what I'm saying out of context. Good job! :thumbup1:

Marx said that socialism is the stage after capitalism, that is all I'm placing emphasis on, and you are somehow spinning that into me being a supporter of capitalism?



Slogan dropping won't help.

Are you telling me that you believe it to be easier to fight imperialism?

[one10]

I wasn't talking specifically about Chavez. I was talking about supporting anti-imp over revolution.

Again, taking what I'm saying out of context.

I never said that we should support anti-imperialism OVER revolution. If that were the case, I wouldn't be a member on this forum.

I'm stating that anti-imperialists efforts should be supported but never did I say over revolution.




Why, what reasoning are you using for this that convinced you that revolutionaries should support bourgeois revolutions as opposed to proletarian ones?


Again, I never said they should support bourgeois revolutions in opposition to proletarian ones.



My earlier point is that it wouldn't matter whether or not the nations were directly dominated or economically dominated. The capitalists wouldn't take kindly to a leftist revolt regardless of their relations towards the other capitalists.

I understand what you are saying here, but it isn't like it hasn't happened.

Take Cuba as an example. They were able to have a successful armed struggle without intervention from other capitalist nations (even though it would've been in their interests to do so). Unfortunately after Cuba, the United States really began to crack down on radical leftist movements in Latin America, and after the fall of the USSR and the rise of Neoliberalism, we are where we are today.

[The Jay]

Did you miss the part where we are hypothetically speaking about the United States not being an imperialist super power?

My contention is that the possibility of that does not exist. I explained why.


First of all, I'm not siding with the bourgeois. You keep taking everything I'm saying out of context. If you continue to do so, I refuse to discuss this topic further with you.

Look, even if you are supporting national liberation struggles just as a first step before a second struggle - namely revolution - you are still supporting an alliance with the bourgeois. If you are calling for a socialist revolution and not a mere national liberation struggle then that is different.


I'm simply arguing that it is in favor of socialist movements to overthrow a local bourgeois in one's country rather than an imperialist one. Hence why we should support anti-imperialist efforts in Latin America.

What I was saying is that it doesn't matter if the bourgeois they are fighting is domestic or not. Capital does not respect borders and the bourgeois will certainly reach out to their competitors and partners in other nations. The idea that you can fight the local bourgeois and only the local bourgeois is a fallacy.


Marx argued that revolution would first occur in developed countries, Lenin said otherwise and while he may have been right, what happens when a socialist revolution occurs in one of these under developed nations while it is being exploited by an imperialist capitalist SUPER power? History shows us that they will intervene.


There will be intervention no matter what.



Marx said that socialism is the stage after capitalism, that is all I'm placing emphasis on, and you are somehow spinning that into me being a supporter of capitalism?

If you support bourgeois control over the people in any way, and that is what support of national liberation without a socialist character is, then you are. I recognize that you would propose a revolution afterwards and that is why you are getting mad at my calling you a supporter of the bourgoeisie. I do think that you are being sincere but you must call a spade a spade here.


Are you telling me that you believe it to be easier to fight imperialism?

I'm saying that an internal threat will cause more imperialism to be welcomed by the ruling class as a means of self-preservation.

[The Jay]

Take Cuba as an example. They were able to have a successful armed struggle without intervention from other capitalist nations (even though it would've been in their interests to do so). Unfortunately after Cuba, the United States really began to crack down on radical leftist movements in Latin America, and after the fall of the USSR and the rise of Neoliberalism, we are where we are today.

I do believe that Castro tried to make it look like he was a liberal to the american media. If they thought he was a communist then they likely would have backed Batista.

[one10]

My contention is that the possibility of that does not exist. I explained why.

We were being hypothetical. That is why in one of my origina posts, I said that I don't see the United States giving up imperiliast powers, the system would have to collapse or be over thrown.



Look, even if you are supporting national liberation struggles just as a first step before a second struggle - namely revolution - you are still supporting an alliance with the bourgeois. If you are calling for a socialist revolution and not a mere national liberation struggle then that is different.

Well, ofcourse a socialist revolution is ideal, hence why I said that Chavez's methods aren't ideal in one of my earlier posts.



What I was saying is that it doesn't matter if the bourgeois they are fighting is domestic or not. Capital does not respect borders and the bourgeois will certainly reach out to their competitors and partners in other nations. The idea that you can fight the local bourgeois and only the local bourgeois is a fallacy.

That's why world revolution is essential.



If you support bourgeois control over the people in any way, and that is what support of national liberation without a socialist character is, then you are. I recognize that you would propose a revolution afterwards and that is why you are getting mad at my calling you a supporter of the bourgoeisie. I do think that you are being sincere but you must call a spade a spade here.

You are ignoring the fact that bourgeois control over the people NEEDS to exist for there to be a class struggle and ignite revolution in the first place.

That is not being a supporter of the bourgeoisie, that's analyzing the world through Marxist framework.




I'm saying that an internal threat will cause more imperialism to be welcomed by the ruling class as a means of self-preservation.

Welcome imperialism? This simply doesn't make sense if we are still following the concept of said countries being completely independent from imperialist control. You are assuming that other capitalist countries would militarily intervene.

[one10]

I do believe that Castro tried to make it look like he was a liberal to the american media. If they thought he was a communist then they likely would have backed Batista.

Castro wasn't trying to disguise himself as a liberal. The July 26th Movement was a national liberation struggle. Castro didn't declare Cuba a socialist state until May 1st 1961. A year and a half after the success of the July 26th movement.


This is exactly what I'm getting to. Through national liberation struggles, you rid the country of imperialist control and therefore become independent in dictating your future.

I'd much rather prefer a socialist revolution, but in the face of imperialism, national liberation can be necessary.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Castro wasn't trying to disguise himself as a liberal. The July 26th Movement was a national liberation struggle. Castro didn't declare Cuba a socialist state until May 1st 1961. A year and a half after the success of the July 26th movement.


This is exactly what I'm getting to. Through national liberation struggles, you rid the country of imperialist control and therefore become independent in dictating your future.

Rather, the increasing antagonism from the US despite Castro's open and relatively friendly attempts to approach the U.S. made necessary a cosying up to the SSSR. This is exactly what the declaration of "socialism" was all about.

[one10]

Rather, the increasing antagonism from the US despite Castro's open and relatively friendly attempts to approach the U.S. made necessary a cosying up to the SSSR. This is exactly what the declaration of "socialism" was all about.

Without a doubt. But there is no denying that the July 26th Movement was leftist. They were pushing for land reform and nationalization of industries.

They knew what they were doing from it's inception, there is a reason why the US began to distance itself from Cuba before it even declared itself as Socialist.

[Paul Pott]

What leftist militants in Venezuela need to do is assist in forming these councils and committees and go all out to found them all over the country, and work to expand their functions and influence throughout the communities. Then they need to form units of street skirmishers to defend clinics, homes, and valuable locations from the JAVU and other reactionaries who have a big street presence. In this way they will have taken the first steps to forming parallel government structures within Venezuela that could become the basis for a workers' state.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

What exactly do you mean by fascistic elements? Violence against the Left doesn't have to be from fascists. Liberals are just as capable.


That was my point, I was arguing against the idea that the opposition was actually fascist. However I can see why someone would see the act of inciting mobs to attack health clinics for the poor staffed by foreign doctors could be construed as "fascist" though, and so in that I was addressing Rusty.



While those things have characterized Fascism in the past, those actions are merely their strategy for implementing their ideology and - correct me if I am wrong - not directly spelled out in the ideology itself.

Well, the opposition doesn't really have one coherent ideology, but they don't seem to be calling for corporatism, militarism and the other aspects of fascist ideology. So really the best place to check would be their tactics.

I think the real point is that calling the opposition "fascist" is factually inaccurate although there are probably a group on the right of the opposition that do fit that description.

[Paul Pott]

Can you take this somewhere else please?

[one10]

What leftist militants in Venezuela need to do is assist in forming these councils and committees and go all out to found them all over the country, and work to expand their functions and influence throughout the communities. Then they need to form units of street skirmishers to defend clinics, homes, and valuable locations from the JAVU and other reactionaries who have a big street presence. In this way they will have taken the first steps to forming parallel government structures within Venezuela that could become the basis for a workers' state.

This I agree with. Thus why I was saying that at the very least Chavez has paved the way for such things to occur. There wouldn't be worker councils if some right-wing puppet was the president of the country.

There is nothing the United States can do to stop such a structure from being created.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Again, taking what I'm saying out of context.

I never said that we should support anti-imperialism OVER revolution. If that were the case, I wouldn't be a member on this forum.

I'm stating that anti-imperialists efforts should be supported but never did I say over revolution.




Again, I never said they should support bourgeois revolutions in opposition to proletarian ones.



I understand what you are saying here, but it isn't like it hasn't happened.

Take Cuba as an example. They were able to have a successful armed struggle without intervention from other capitalist nations (even though it would've been in their interests to do so). Unfortunately after Cuba, the United States really began to crack down on radical leftist movements in Latin America, and after the fall of the USSR and the rise of Neoliberalism, we are where we are today.
It doesn't work that way. By supporting Chavez and Maduro, you are taking a position AGAINST revolution. By taking a position for "bourgeois revolutions" you are coming out against proletarian revolution. These things are counterposed in this historical epoch. In Russia, you would have taken a position with the Mensheviks (and the right-wing of the Bolsheviks) against the October uprising.

The US didn't go into Cuba (although there was the Bay of Pigs incident) full force because the USSR was backing Castro -- Castro in turn was expropriating the Cuban bourgeoisie. This is qualitatively different from Chavez.

And the problem lies precisely in your formulation of "anti-imperialism" as some kind of abstract and class neutral category. The anti-imperialism of local nationalists that have their own regional ambitions is not revolutionary! The left has been so poisoned for so long by various strains of nationalism, I suppose it is understandable that you can't get your brain around this. The workers have been fucked time and time again in the name of nationalist "anti-imperialism." From China, to Indonesia to Indochina, to, well too many places to mention. Certainly all over Latin America (Chile, Bolivia, Brazil. . . ). It is a bloody dead end.

[one10]

It doesn't work that way. By supporting Chavez and Maduro, you are taking a position AGAINST revolution. By taking a position for "bourgeois revolutions" you are coming out against proletarian revolution. These things are counterposed in this historical epoch. In Russia, you would have taken a position with the Mensheviks (and the right-wing of the Bolsheviks) against the October uprising.

The US didn't go into Cuba (although there was the Bay of Pigs incident) full force because the USSR was backing Castro -- Castro in turn was expropriating the Cuban bourgeoisie. This is qualitatively different from Chavez.

And the problem lies precisely in your formulation of "anti-imperialism" as some kind of abstract and class neutral category. The anti-imperialism of local nationalists that have their own regional ambitions is not revolutionary! The left has been so poisoned for so long by various strains of nationalism, I suppose it is understandable that you can't get your brain around this. The workers have been fucked time and time again in the name of nationalist "anti-imperialism." From China, to Indonesia to Indochina, to, well too many places to mention. Certainly all over Latin America (Chile, Bolivia, Brazil. . . ). It is a bloody dead end.

Russia was ripe for a revolution and it was 1917, not 2013. Not to mention that the rest of the world was too busy fighting a war. When it comes to revolution in Latin America, geography plays a huge role as well. You cannot compare the location of Russia to that of Latin America.

Revolutions aren't just some spontaneous occurance, the conditions have to be there, a revolution without build up or support will not be successful. And as I'm getting sick of stating, the imperialist super power in Latin America will stop at nothing to prevent such revolutions, thus why it is important that the imperialists be driven out of Latin America.

And that is precisely why defeating imperialism is significant, those same governments using anti-imperialist rhetoric to exploit the working class will now have nothing. That is not to say that the working class should be content with such governments, they should continue to push for radical change, but they must maintain a strong stance against imperialism. I'm not entirely sure what part of this you aren't understanding.

Do you not see that the Latin Americans have tried it all? Coups, revolutions, rebellions, assasinations, it all results in the United States getting involved.

There is clearly a huge problem with the United States abusing their power to protect their interests in Latin America. It's not as if politicians like Chavez were making it up to control the masses, it is very much the truth.

You need to not look any further than the FARC for an example of what a degenerated revolutionary movement looks like in Latin America.

As I've said before, Chavez's methods aren't ideal, but his implementation of worker councils, the nationalization of key industries, and his Bolivarian missions, all prove that he is more than just some bourgeois puppet of the US and at the very least give workers some sort of control over their work environments. The workers can use this as a tool to unite the working class in their struggle against the bourgeois. If Chavez wanted to maintain control over the working class, then why set up such councils?


But go ahead, keep taking everything I'm saying out of context.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

I will try one more time. You cannot defeat imperialism through petite bourgeois nationalism -- Only revolutionary internationalism points to the road forward. What hasn't been tried in Latin America is a mass based Marxist and Leninist party deeply committed to international revolution, based in the working class.

If Chavez sets up the councils, that is a lot safer than spontaneous ones, isn't it? The better to control them, my dear.

He is not a puppet of the US -- the US rulers hate him because he is a "good" nationalist that wants to better his country at the expense of the US interests. But Chavez's gains, such as they are, are precarious because of US imperialism being close. Venezuela remains a capitalist country. And you are giving POLITICAL support to one wing of the Venezuelan bourgeoisie.

I am taking what you say in precisely the context it is given. These things are pretty concrete. I just happen to disagree strongly with much of what you are saying.

[Luís Henrique]

Latin America's biggest struggle isn't against capitalism, it is against the imperialism that forces capitalism on them!

The Latin American working class' biggest struggle is against capitalism.


Once the imperialists are out of Latin America, it will be free to pave it's own revolutionary path.

Nonsence. How are we going to get rid of "the imperialists" without a social revolution, and what use would we have for a social revolution that isn't aimed at terminating capitalism?

Luís Henrique

[Tjis]

While the revolutionary potential of chavistas and similar movements in latin america are an important discussion topic, I'm primarily interested in hearing what's happening in Venezuela right now. Does anyone know about recent developments? Is there still political violence going on?

[La Guaneña]

I will try one more time. You cannot defeat imperialism through petite bourgeois nationalism -- Only revolutionary internationalism points to the road forward. What hasn't been tried in Latin America is a mass based Marxist and Leninist party deeply committed to international revolution, based in the working class.

I understand that only on a revolutionary and proletarian base imperialism can be defeated, especially in places like Latin America, where capitalism has developed with such a dependance to foreign captial. Attacking capitalism is the only way to hit imperialism where it hurts.


If Chavez sets up the councils, that is a lot safer than spontaneous ones, isn't it? The better to control them, my dear.

I wrote it wrong in the post and edited it later. The councils are a proposition of the PCV, and they see it as means of radicalizing the anti-imperialist movement by creating alternatives for power. They, as you and me, see that only through a radicalization in the struggle towards open class war US imperialism will be defeated;


He is not a puppet of the US -- the US rulers hate him because he is a "good" nationalist that wants to better his country at the expense of the US interests. But Chavez's gains, such as they are, are precarious because of US imperialism being close. Venezuela remains a capitalist country. And you are giving POLITICAL support to one wing of the Venezuelan bourgeoisie.

Chavez is hated because his policies entered direct disagreement with the policies of US imperialism. When he came to power, in 1998, the only way to put up an effective struggle against the USA was by using popular front strategy, as the radical left was literally dead.

Right now, revolutionaries in Venezuela have no other choice to keep up support for bolivarianism, as the only force capable of still holding ground.

But it is a duty for the communists there to be one steap ahead of the rest of the coalition, seeing the limitations of the struggle inside the bourgeoise state, creating and radicalizing the councils being created spontaniously in various pueblos, cities, neighbourhoods and workplaces.

Venezuela has an extremely delayed form of capitalism developing, and right now the development of a national bourgeois is the only way to develop and industry that might in the future guarantee a chance at sovereignty, wich Venezuela had absolutely no chances of in case of a proletarian revolution 5 or 10 years ago.



I am taking what you say in precisely the context it is given. These things are pretty concrete. I just happen to disagree strongly with much of what you are saying.


In sum, I support Maduro right now as the popular front is the only way to fight off the imperialists now, and will basically lead to radicalization or death. Any movement or party in Venezuela with a compromise against imperialism must give critical pollitical support for Maduro, while struggling to create and fortify a dual source of power.

There is no struggle against capitalism in Latin America that does not have to fight imperialism head-on, and vice versa. Opening any space to imperialism means death for any hopes of socialism.

[La Guaneña]

http://prensapcv.wordpress.com/2013/04/19/declaracion-del-consejo-de-jefas-y-jefes-de-estado-y-de-gobierno-de-la-union-de-naciones-suramericanas-unasur/

UNASUR shows support for Maduro.

In Venezuela the opposition seems to have calmed down after the CNE said it will audit 100% of the ballot boxes, which should take a month.

Meanwhile, Maduro promised justice against those responsible for acts of violence, and said officialy that the coup has been defeated.


http://www.cclcp.org/index.php/inicio-cclcp/internacional/326-comunicado-do-partido-comunista-paraguaio

Meanwhile, in Paraguay the right wing is consolidating the coup d'etat with a dirty election this Sunday. It is expected that the Partido Colorado or the PLRA (Liberals) win, meaning a step back in Lugo's agrarian policy and bringing back ties with US and Brazilian imperialism.

[Red Commissar]

.

In Venezuela the opposition seems to have calmed down after the CNE said it will audit 100% of the ballot boxes, which should take a month.


They didn't care about Maduro being sworn in before that?

[La Guaneña]

They didn't care about Maduro being sworn in before that?

They obviously are being the buch of whiny assholes they always are, but I was reffering to street fights and big demos.

I see this as the right retreating after the failed coup attempt, they took some hard pollitical hits, and Capriles might just loose his place as leader of the "unified" opposition after this idiocy.

[one10]

What hasn't been tried in Latin America is a mass based Marxist and Leninist party deeply committed to international revolution, based in the working .

I agree with this, but it shouldn't be restricted to just one tendency, it should be a regional communist party.

[La Guaneña]

I have translated parts of the last declaration of support from the PCV to Maduro before the election, where the Party talks about the State, class struggle and why and how they support the government.

http://www.revleft.com/vb/pcv-transcend-current-t180304/index.html?t=180304

I guess we could leave this thread to news and updates.

[Paul Pott]

Johny Pacheco, who was defending the CDI in Miranda state with Ponce, was shot in the head by opposition supporters. They didn't even rob him.

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

I'm really fearing a coup and/or a civil war. Again in the heart of South America. Again!

[Rusty Shackleford]

Why do people think a political movement needs to be EITHER Bourgeois OR Petit Bourgeois OR Proletarian? Parties can be riddled with internal contradiction ... they don't have to be these movements with a coherent and permanent class basis.



Sure there are fascistic elements but I think that there are as many people in the opposition who are ideologically neoliberal and conservative. There are often elements that seem fascistic. The targeting of Cuban health clinics was particularly telling, as was shooting at random PSUV members.

However, I don't think that they're united behind a fascist ideology, and there's the lack of the structural and institutional components of fascism (like shock troops on the street, significant infiltration of the police and military apparatus, etc)


Juventud Activa Venezuela Unida


As soemone else posted:

The Venezuelan government says that members of JAVU, which was created in 2007, act as violent "shock troops" in opposition protests.
The government also says that JAVU is the recipient of substantial funds from U.S. government affiliated organizations such as the National Endowment for Democracy (NED), the International Republican Institute (IRI), and the US Agency for International Development (USAID), with the aim of interfering in Venezuela's internal affairs.
Venezuelan opposition groups deny this allegation. They say JAVU is an environmental organisation and claim that Rivas is the victim of political persecution.
According to Venezuelan regional daily El Carabobeño, JAVU was formed to protest the non-renewal of private television channel RCTV's broadcasting concession in May 2007.
"In Carabobo there are 17 cells, each one formed by 200 people. It has a presence in 12 states of the country, and approximately some 80 thousand members," the report claimed.
Statements on the group's blog site have included calls for bringing down the Chavez government and a communiqué supporting the June 28 military coup in Honduras. However, shortly after Rivas' arrest, JAVU administrators closed down their own site.


Also, fascism will unlikely repeat itself as the spanish, italian, or german variants. there may be resurgences of those types of organizations, like the Golden Dawn of Espana 2000, but i couldnt imagine them gaining mass traction. i hope im not wrong too.

Latin America is different though. Fascism is has been a transplant backed up by the OAS or supported by the US in someway. From the death squads in El Salvador and Nicaragua, to Pinochet, to the direct and indirect violence in Guatemala and the Banana Republics, the coup in Honduras, the attempted coup in Ecuador... All of these had an essence of fascism with the interest of US imperialism at heart.


The ideological motivation is almost unimportant when the actions go to repress, very violently in most cases, anything vaguely revolutionary or proletarian, and seek to install client regimes for the US to benefit from. Sure its not the old Natioanlist fascism of the 1900s, but like colonialism, it has taken on a new character today, especially with context.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

The conformation bias in this thread is embarrassing. Someone posts pictures of someone burning old election materials, someone claims someone from Venezuela sent the picture to them of soldiers burning them from this election against the bolivarians.

If someone online had done that from the other side we would be hearing " can you not see how obvious they are, they are using old pictures, disinformation"

[RadioRaheem84]

There will be a fascist Fatherland and Liberty type movement that will form because of this. I just know it. They've had enough of the little re distribution of wealth there was in Venezuela. I cannot believe how little the poor received, which was a lot in their eyes, but in comparison to the enormous wealth the bourgeois still have, they still get upset???

The opposition are straight fascist scum.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

I understand that only on a revolutionary and proletarian base imperialism can be defeated, especially in places like Latin America, where capitalism has developed with such a dependance to foreign captial. Attacking capitalism is the only way to hit imperialism where it hurts.



I wrote it wrong in the post and edited it later. The councils are a proposition of the PCV, and they see it as means of radicalizing the anti-imperialist movement by creating alternatives for power. They, as you and me, see that only through a radicalization in the struggle towards open class war US imperialism will be defeated;



Chavez is hated because his policies entered direct disagreement with the policies of US imperialism. When he came to power, in 1998, the only way to put up an effective struggle against the USA was by using popular front strategy, as the radical left was literally dead.

Right now, revolutionaries in Venezuela have no other choice to keep up support for bolivarianism, as the only force capable of still holding ground.

But it is a duty for the communists there to be one steap ahead of the rest of the coalition, seeing the limitations of the struggle inside the bourgeoise state, creating and radicalizing the councils being created spontaniously in various pueblos, cities, neighbourhoods and workplaces.

Venezuela has an extremely delayed form of capitalism developing, and right now the development of a national bourgeois is the only way to develop and industry that might in the future guarantee a chance at sovereignty, wich Venezuela had absolutely no chances of in case of a proletarian revolution 5 or 10 years ago.




In sum, I support Maduro right now as the popular front is the only way to fight off the imperialists now, and will basically lead to radicalization or death. Any movement or party in Venezuela with a compromise against imperialism must give critical pollitical support for Maduro, while struggling to create and fortify a dual source of power.

There is no struggle against capitalism in Latin America that does not have to fight imperialism head-on, and vice versa. Opening any space to imperialism means death for any hopes of socialism.
There is not struggle against capitalism anywhere that doesn't have to fight imperialism head-on. The Popular Front, as espoused by the Comintern in 1935, has lead to nothing but defeats. Learn from history. What will you tell those that you are encouraging to support Maduro when he is sending them to jail or to firing squads?

[Paul Pott]

The conformation bias in this thread is embarrassing. Someone posts pictures of someone burning old election materials, someone claims someone from Venezuela sent the picture to them of soldiers burning them from this election against the bolivarians.

If someone online had done that from the other side we would be hearing " can you not see how obvious they are, they are using old pictures, disinformation"

That's nice, because that's exactly what's going on.

They've also been passing a photo of riot police beating up a protester in Egypt from 2011 as a recent photo of a Venezuelan protest. Of course, all of those killed and most of those wounded so far have been government supporters.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

That's nice, because that's exactly what's going on.

They've also been passing a photo of riot police beating up a protester in Egypt form 2011 as a recent photo of a Venezuelan protest. Of course, all of those killed and most of those wounded so far have been government supporters.

On both sides advocating one set of state gangsters over the other.

I can't believe its not statism

( I do not own or have the rights to utterly butterly this is for cute purposes only)

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

There is not struggle against capitalism anywhere that doesn't have to fight imperialism head-on. The Popular Front, as espoused by the Comintern in 1935, has lead to nothing but defeats. Learn from history. What will you tell those that you are encouraging to support Maduro when he is sending them to jail or to firing squads?


Didn't know you had the ability to predict the future, Son of Bronstein.

[RadioRaheem84]

The conformation bias in this thread is embarrassing. Someone posts pictures of someone burning old election materials, someone claims someone from Venezuela sent the picture to them of soldiers burning them from this election against the bolivarians.

If someone online had done that from the other side we would be hearing " can you not see how obvious they are, they are using old pictures, disinformation"

Why don't you just admit you're reactionary now? We get it. We are so bias! Well yes the truth tends to have a leftist bias.

The pics of government troops burning election materials have been spreading like wildfire because of the opposition's insistence to spread false propaganda against the government. I've seen the same old photos being spread on other sites by reactionaries.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

Why don't you just admit you're reactionary now? We get it. We are so bias! Well yes the truth tends to have a leftist bias.

The pics of government troops burning election materials have been spreading like wildfire because of the opposition's insistence to spread false propaganda against the government. I've seen the same old photos being spread on other sites by reactionaries.

I am an Anarchist. Why do you have to resort to attacks. It is just so embarrassing. Do you talk like that in real life. Must be awkward for people around you.

[RadioRaheem84]

I am an Anarchist. Why do you have to resort to attacks. It is just so embarrassing. Do you talk like that in real life. Must be awkward for people around you.


Talk like what?

Were you unaware of the fact that the pix of government troops burning election materials was propaganda by the opposition?

What's embarrassing is that you keep saying that we are all bias and something is wrong with us for not reducing our analysis of the Boston bomber as anything more than fucktwits who practice a damn dirty religion called Islam.

Stop acting so offended too. Stop using the "attack me because I disagree with you" card.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

Talk like what?

Were you unaware of the fact that the pix of government troops burning election materials was propaganda by the opposition?

What's embarrassing is that you keep saying that we are all bias and something is wrong with us for not reducing our analysis of the Boston bomber as anything more than fucktwits who practice a damn dirty religion called Islam.

Stop acting so offended too. Stop using the "attack me because I disagree with you" card.

You seem to have a hard on for me since I stated I am a man who likes other sexy boys. You seem outraged a loud mouth faggot say shit about Islam. Fuck religion and quite honestly, fuck anyone who apologies for Muslim atrocities using the its not their shit theology it is their material conditions. Hitler is also a result of material conditions to the same extent, I guess we just need to understand the holocaust, right?

[La Guaneña]

There is not struggle against capitalism anywhere that doesn't have to fight imperialism head-on. The Popular Front, as espoused by the Comintern in 1935, has lead to nothing but defeats. Learn from history. What will you tell those that you are encouraging to support Maduro when he is sending them to jail or to firing squads?

So what is your point? Should the radical left break out of the front?

[RadioRaheem84]

You seem to have a hard on for me since I stated I am a man who likes other sexy boys. You seem outraged a loud mouth faggot say shit about Islam. Fuck religion and quite honestly, fuck anyone who apologies for Muslim atrocities using the its not their shit theology it is their material conditions. Hitler is also a result of material conditions to the same extent, I guess we just need to understand the holocaust, right?

If you do not get this then you're clearly not a leftist by any stretch of the imagination. I would say start in the learning section to regain what little dignity you have, but the looks of it, you just seem like a reactionary troll to me.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

If you do not get this then you're clearly not a leftist by any stretch of the imagination. I would say start in the learning section to regain what little dignity you have, but the looks of it, you just seem like a reactionary troll to me.

I am a class struggle anarchist who believes in revolution through workplace organizing and taking control of the means of production. I also like to combat racism, sexism, homophobia and things that affect not only the working class broadly but oppressed groups within the oppressed group such as LGBT community.

If I am reactionary for these views and you want me banned, good luck with the working class in general, who are so right of what I am you would ban pretty much every one of them.

[RadioRaheem84]

I am a class struggle anarchist who believes in revolution through workplace organizing and taking control of the means of production. I also like to combat racism, sexism, homophobia and things that affect not only the working class broadly but oppressed groups within the oppressed group such as LGBT community.

If I am reactionary for these views and you want me banned, good luck with the working class in general, who are so right of what I am you would ban pretty much every one of them.

If you weren't so brazen about blaming religion and not seeing it as a by product, then you're not a leftist. I mean you're talk sounds like liberal hawk drivel that people like Sam Harris and the Euston Manifesto type spew. Look em up you will probably love their stuff.

I hesitated calling you a troll earlier but after your homophobic slur laden explicitness you threw out I would put my money on that you are.

[Aleksandr Karelin]

If you weren't so brazen about blaming religion and not seeing it as a by product, then you're not a leftist. I mean you're talk sounds like liberal hawk drivel that people like Sam Harris and the Euston Manifesto type spew. Look em up you will probably love their stuff.

I hesitated calling you a troll earlier but after your homophobic slur laden explicitness you threw out I would put my money on that you are.

I am queer. Not as in please respect that fact. As in fuck you.

[Kalinin's Facial Hair]

Yeah ok, now stop derailing the thread.

[Red Commissar]

Meanwhile, in Paraguay the right wing is consolidating the coup d'etat with a dirty election this Sunday. It is expected that the Partido Colorado or the PLRA (Liberals) win, meaning a step back in Lugo's agrarian policy and bringing back ties with US and Brazilian imperialism.

Paraguay is also, along with Panama, the only Latin American nations who seem to've taken the US's position in not recognizing the election's results.

[l'Enfermé]

Mod action:


You seem to have a hard on for me since I stated I am a man who likes other sexy boys. You seem outraged a loud mouth faggot say shit about Islam. Fuck religion and quite honestly, fuck anyone who apologies for Muslim atrocities using the its not their shit theology it is their material conditions. Hitler is also a result of material conditions to the same extent, I guess we just need to understand the holocaust, right?


Discriminatory language like that isn't allowed, even if you are gay yourself. So I'm giving you a verbal warning.

[MarxArchist]

Think what would have happened if Chavez (when alive/in office) abolished capital, then add US troop involvement and US intelligence agencies skulduggery (as if the CIA/NSA aren't backing opposition to quasi socialist parties around the globe already). Fully funded and armed bug squash under boot of capital.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

So what is your point? Should the radical left break out of the front?
YES. Immediately. And they should underscore that their involvement with the front was a big mistake. Again, comrades, my ability to predict the future has to do with my ability to look at the past and draw, at least some, proper conclusions. The balance sheet on popular fronts is something like this:

Borgeoisie 5,926, Proletariat 0.

It is not sectarian, nor fantastical to be able to predict, with a high degree of accuracy, how this will work out for the working class of Venezuela.

[Lev Bronsteinovich]

Think what would have happened if Chavez (when alive/in office) abolished capital, then add US troop involvement and US intelligence agencies skulduggery (as if the CIA/NSA aren't backing opposition to quasi socialist parties around the globe already). Fully funded and armed bug squash under boot of capital.
Well, Chavez was no socialist, (plus he may have been larger than life, but I doubt he could have done anything much after he died) so there was no question of his expropriating the bourgeoisie. And yes the US will always use its might against revolutions -- that is why you have to fight for internationalism. Or just give up and play by the imperialists' rules.

[DDR]

Apparently this is going to be Maduro's cabinet:



@NicolasMaduro: El vicepresidente Ejecutivo, Jorge Arreaza, es ratificado
@NicolasMaduro: El Despacho de la Presidencia de la República y Seguimiento sigue a cargo de la almiranta Carmen Meléndez
@NicolasMaduro: Para el Ministerio de Relaciones Interiores he llamado al general Miguel Rodríguez Torres
@NicolasMaduro: en el Ministerio de Relaciones Exteriores sigue Elías Jaua Milano
@Maduro: Hemos tomado la decisión de colocar ministerios por separados a Planificación y Finanzas
@NicolasMaduro: El profesor Jorge Giordani asume el Ministerio de Planificación y será vicepresidente de la Planificación
@NicolasMaduro: Nelson Merentes Ministro de Finanzas
@NicolasMaduro: Merentes trae nuevas ideas y vamos a crear zonas económicas especiales
@NicolasMaduro: Ing. Iván Gil para el Ministerio de Agricultura
@NicolasMaduro: Para el Ministerio de Turismo hemos invitado al compañero Andrés Izarra
‏@PresidencialVen: Alejandro Fleming designado Ministro de Comercio Exterior
@NicolasMaduro: Pedro Calzadilla asume el Ministerio de Educación Universitaria
@NicolasMaduro: Se ha ratificado a Maryam Hanson en el ME
@NicolasMaduro: En el Ministerio de Salud asume la doctora Isabel Iturria
@NicolasMaduro: Hemos pedido a María Cristina Iglesias que se mantenga en el Ministerio del Trabajo y Seguridad Social
@PresidencialVen: Mayor general García Plaza asume el Ministerio de Transporte Acuático y Aéreo
@NicolasMaduro: En el Ministerio de Vivienda estamos ratificando a Ricardo Molina
@NicolasMaduro: En el Ministerio de Petróleo y Minería sigue Rafael Ramírez
@NicolasMaduro:En el Ministerio del Ambiente estamos colocando a Dante Rivas, su prioridad avanzar en el suministro de agua
@NicolasMaduro: En el Ministerio de Ciencia y Tecnología asume Manuel Fernández y Ernesto Villegas sigue en el MINCI
@NicolasMaduro: Para el Ministerio de Comunas he designado a Reinaldo Iturriza
@NicolasMaduro: Para el Ministerio de Alimentación hemos designado a Félix Osorio
@NicolasMaduro: Para el Ministerio de la Cultura hemos designado a Fidel Barbarito
@NicolasMaduro: Hemos ratificado a Aloha Núñez en el Ministerio para los Pueblos Indígenas. Alejandra Benítez Ministra de Deporte
@PresidencialVen: Héctor Rodríguez asume el Ministerio de la Juventud
@Maduro: Para el Ministerio de la Mujer hemos designado a Andreína Tarazón
@Maduro: María Iris Varela continúa su trabajo (Ministra del Poder Popular para el Servicio Penitenciario)
@Maduro: Ministerio de Electricidad para Jesse Chacón
@PresidencialVen: Ratificado Francisco Sexto como ministro de Estado para la Transformación Urbana de Caracas


Source: https://twitter.com/PresidencialVen

[Luís Henrique]

@NicolasMaduro: Merentes trae nuevas ideas y vamos a crear zonas económicas especiales

That doesn't sound good at all.

Luís Henrique

[Paul Pott]

Venezuela needs a left opposition. Now. Otherwise the neoliberals will be in power by the 2020s.

[Paul Pott]

That doesn't sound good at all.

Luís Henrique

This proves once and for all that the Bolivarian government will not deliver on its promises to the working class.

But at no point in the past 14 years has the private economy been overtaken by the state sector, so I'm not sure what he's talking about. Maybe regions where the Bolivarian labor laws don't apply? What kind of revolution is that?

[Fionnagáin]

Venezuela needs a left opposition. Now. Otherwise the neoliberals will be in power by the 2020s.
Venezuela needs a working class opposition, same as everywhere else on the globe. Throwing another group of self-appointed "revolutionaries" into the mix won't change a thing, any more than it ever has.

[KurtFF8]

This proves once and for all that the Bolivarian government will not deliver on its promises to the working class.

It really doesn't prove that. There isn't evidence (bar a few aspects of some of the appointments) that this signals a rightward or neoliberal shift for the PSUV. If this cabinet implements the plan put forward by Chavez, then claims like yours will be shown to have been incorrect.

[RadioRaheem84]

That doesn't sound good at all.

Luís Henrique

Talk about jumping the gun. How do we know he meant free trade zones?

[Red Commissar]

Talk about jumping the gun. How do we know he meant free trade zones?

In what other context has "Special Economic Zone" been used nowadays?

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

A special economic zone is just an area with a different (usually much lighter) system of laws and regulations, often to entice foreign multinationals. It would be interesting to see what this means for Venezuela. It seems hard to square with Maduro's talk of deepening the revolution, but he is just a politician after all. If it's just a repeat of the Chinese experiment or the neoliberal equivalents around the world you can bet it will increase the amount of discord within the party. Time will tell what will come of that policy, and whether or not its going to be a central plank of the next administration's economic plans or just some currency-generating experiment.

[RadioRaheem84]

In what other context has "Special Economic Zone" been used nowadays?

It just doesn't seem like it would be in line with the PSUV.

[Paul Pott]

And what is the PSUV, exactly? A party with its own eclectic ideology of social democracy mixed with liberation theology, with Marxistic populist rhetoric.

Sugar coat it any way you want - that's what it is. Period. It's best to realize that.

This is perfectly in line with the PSUV.

[Rusty Shackleford]

what is the context on the SEZs? i mean, the optimist in me means it may mean the establishment of more productive communes or something along those lines as venezuela is already a 'free market' society.

[Flying Purple People Eater]

That doesn't sound good at all.

Luís Henrique

Pardon, but would you be able to enlighten a non Spanish-speaking individual such as myself to what he said?

[Captain Ahab]

Pardon, but would you be able to enlighten a non Spanish-speaking individual such as myself to what he said?

"Merentes tries new ideas, we will create special economic zones."

[Luís Henrique]

Pardon, but would you be able to enlighten a non Spanish-speaking individual such as myself to what he said?

"Merentes brings new ideas, and we are going to create special economic zones."

Luís Henrique

[Tenka]

A special economic zone is just an area with a different (usually much lighter) system of laws and regulations, often to entice foreign multinationals. It would be interesting to see what this means for Venezuela. It seems hard to square with Maduro's talk of deepening the revolution, but he is just a politician after all. If it's just a repeat of the Chinese experiment or the neoliberal equivalents around the world you can bet it will increase the amount of discord within the party. Time will tell what will come of that policy, and whether or not its going to be a central plank of the next administration's economic plans or just some currency-generating experiment.

Indeed time will tell. For the moment, when I hear the prospect of SEZs in Venezuela all that I can envisage is something like these (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maquiladora).

[La Guaneña]

http://aristobulo.psuv.org.ve/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/zedes.pdf

This is a project and explanation of the ZEEs found on the website of the Governor of Anzoátegui.

I don't really have time to read this right now, as I'm pretty busy, but it seems like the ZEEs are indeed areas with low taxes and facilitation for multinational inversions.

It says that they come with the objective of developing the productive forces in unhabited regions of Venezuela, to guarantee sovereignty in the future, as the Venezolan industry is very underdeveloped. Maduro is calling for investments coming from portuguese businessmen already, and this is smelling really bad.

http://www.dn.pt/inicio/globo/interior.aspx?content_id=3179418&seccao=EUA%20e%20Am%E9ricas


It seems like the time for "revolution or bust" time is coming fast.

[dez]

http://aristobulo.psuv.org.ve/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/zedes.pdf

This is a project and explanation of the ZEEs found on the website of the Governor of Anzoátegui.

I don't really have time to read this right now,

Definition of the Special Zones of Sustainable Development

Special zones are defined as those areas of differential treatment concerning specific territorial objectives, such as the utilization of natural resources for the productive expansion and the generation of jobs with decentralizing goals. It is a tool to impulse in the short term the socio-economical development of those areas, whose physical-natural characteristics, geopolitical, conditions of living and potentialities within the ambit of influence of the axis of development delimitated strategically by the National Executive need of a directed and planified effort, as the policy of Deconcentrated Decentralization.

Conditions for its selection:

Territorial Criteria
Potentiality of Resources
Depressed Economy
Low population concentration

...
etc etc,

Fiscal incentives:
Reduction, exoneration and reimbursement of taxes.
Credit Lines with special conditions

Seems like Zona Franca de Manaus (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Economic_Zone_of_Manaus) in Brazil.

[Luís Henrique]

But those already exist. So what are they going to "create"? More of the same? The same but with gusto? Something completely different?

Again, it doesn't sound good.

Luís Henrique

[La Guaneña]

But those already exist. So what are they going to "create"? More of the same? The same but with gusto? Something completely different?

Again, it doesn't sound good.

Luís Henrique

I imagine he was talking about expansion, as the document states "to be SEZs".

Anyway, I agree that it smells and sounds foul.

[sixdollarchampagne]

For those who believe that Maduro will "radicalize" the "revolution" in Venezuela: A headline on venezuelanalysis.com:

"Venezuela Appoints New Chargé D'Affaires to the US, Relations Improve," at http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/8819

From the story: Calixto Ortega, Venezuela's new man in Washington, "'has a lot of knowledge of US society, and we know that he will contribute a lot towards increasing dialogue ...We want to have the best ties with all the world's governments, and the U.S government ... I have decided to name Calixto Ortega so that dialogue with U.S society can increase ... We hope one day to have respectful relations with the United States, a dialogue between equals, state-to-state,' Maduro said....

"The US State Department responded today to Maduro’s selection, saying it was a 'step' towards establishing 'effective channels of communication' between the two countries."

* * *

A question: Does accommodating the US government, as detailed above, really equal "radicalizing" the "revolution," what Maduro recently promised to do?