Is this really illegal in France?

[Skyhilist]

So I heard that it's actually illegal to serve vegetarian meals in France. I searched it up, and it seems, surprisingly, that this is actually true. So is this actually enforced in France? Moreover, what is the rationale behind forcing kids to eat meat? This seems not only irrational but discriminatory if it's true.

http://www.euroveg.eu/lang/en/news/press/20111014.php

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_TqyKsnQD38&feature=endscreen&NR=1

[Luís Henrique]

So I heard that it's actually illegal to serve vegetarian meals in France. I searched it up, and it seems, surprisingly, that this is actually true. So is this actually enforced in France? Moreover, what is the rationale behind forcing kids to eat meat? This seems not only irrational but discriminatory if it's true.

http://www.euroveg.eu/lang/en/news/press/20111014.php

I love the hype:


A governmental order issued on October 2, 2011(1) has determined that all meals served in school canteens in France must contain animal products, and that meat and fish will be served at a certain minimum frequency. This implies that by law from now on no vegetarian can eat at any public or private school in France.

Nope, dears. It only means that you will have to pick the food in your plate. Or bring your meal from home.

Luís Henrique

[Skyhilist]

Nope, dears. It only means that you will have to pick the food in your plate. Or bring your meal from home.

Luís Henrique

But why should schools not even have the freedom to serve vegetarian options? This still seems pretty discriminatory tbh, especially since some religions such as Jainists and many other eastern faiths only eat vegetarian. By outlawing vegetarian options that's singling them out. Would it be right to tell only atheists or muslims or jewish people that they had to bring lunches to school?

[goalkeeper]

But why should schools not even have the freedom to serve vegetarian options? This still seems pretty discriminatory tbh, especially since some religions such as Jainists and many other eastern faiths only eat vegetarian. By outlawing vegetarian options that's singling them out. Would it be right to tell only atheists or muslims or jewish people that they had to bring lunches to school?

Yes, I'm sure France's massive Jainist community is in uproar.

[Skyhilist]

Yes, I'm sure France's massive Jainist community is in uproar.

So it's okay to discriminate a group so long as their numbers are small? But this isn't just about Jainists anyways. People who choose to be vegetarian are no less of a legitimate group than religions. This isn't about the fact that meat is served in schools or even necessarily favoritism towards meat eaters. It's that they're discriminating against a large group and singling out not only by saying schools don't have to have vegetarian options but that they are not legally allowed to serve any vegetarian options. Why should schools not have this freedom? There is no rational reason.

[goalkeeper]

"What do we want?"

"Meals that include an ethically sourced meat substitute!"

[Fourth Internationalist]

That's stupid. Very stupid.

[Raúl Duke]

So it's okay to discriminate a group so long as their numbers are small?

The French government is not known to be accommodating of religious beliefs....

I think the reason for this has to do with interest groups demanding it from schools.

[Leftsolidarity]

There's no logic in making it illegal to serve vegetarian meals in schools. It's discriminatory against different religious groups and serves no actually purpose.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Meh.

Personally I think vegetarianism is a fucking stupid idea that shouldn't be encouraged, so this doesn't bother me at all.

I realise this makes me an asshole, but that doesn't bother me either!

[Sasha]

yes, organizing and even broadcasting MMA fights is illegal in France which is why i cant watch MMA on eurosport anymore :(

oh wait, other silly france law.

yes it seems it is so, but only for school meals on statefunded schools (which i think all schools in france are), although i doubt there is an army of police and inspectors going passed all school looking under lids and counting the meatballs...
the rationale? the milk/meat industry has a very powerful lobby in france (a lot more powerful than the vegetarian one) and esp the previous rightwing conservative government of sarkozy was very much depended on them/rural votes.
its probably presented as an "save traditional french heritiage thing" just like i believe french highschool kids get wine with their lunch (now that is something i can get behind) and japanese schools are forced to serve wale meat every month or so.

[Tenka]

People who choose to be vegetarian are no less of a legitimate group than religions. This isn't about the fact that meat is served in schools or even necessarily favoritism towards meat eaters. It's that they're discriminating against a large group and singling out not only by saying schools don't have to have vegetarian options but that they are not legally allowed to serve any vegetarian options. Why should schools not have this freedom? There is no rational reason.

Children don't usually "choose" to be vegetarian; when they are, often it is because their zealous veggie parents want it. While children are growing, and their brains developing, it's probably not a bad idea to disallow schools to serve low-fat vegan affairs to them.

And as has been said, if they can't afford to bring their own lunch, they can always pick out the non-animal parts of school meals to eat, if they must avoid animal-derived foods.

[cynicles]

Huh? Banning vegetarian meals at schools? I love meat, in fact I love hunting and killing it myself but this is an absurd waste. I'm as tired of people whining about vegetarians as I am of the vegetarians arguments against eating meat.

[hatzel]

Seeing the direction this thread is going in let me just say right now that if a bunch of liberal animal rights activists start handing out flyers to French Muslims telling them to consider the intersectional oppressions of Muslims/animals and demanding that imams speak out in defence of vegetarians/-ism as 'a fellow marginalised lifestyle' or something I think I might pop over the Channel with a cricket bat.

[Tim Cornelis]

Children don't usually "choose" to be vegetarian; when they are, often it is because their zealous veggie parents want it. While children are growing, and their brains developing, it's probably not a bad idea to disallow schools to serve low-fat vegan affairs to them.

And as has been said, if they can't afford to bring their own lunch, they can always pick out the non-animal parts of school meals to eat, if they must avoid animal-derived foods.

But conversely, children do decide to eat particular kinds of meat (and not others) irrespective of their parents choices... :rolleyes:

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

But conversely, children do decide to eat particular kinds of meat (and not others) irrespective of their parents choices... :rolleyes:

They'll eat almost anything they can get their hands on, so yes. At least as long as they tickle their fancy in terms of taste and consistency.

[Tim Cornelis]

They'll eat almost anything they can get their hands on, so yes. At least as long as they tickle their fancy in terms of taste and consistency.

Is that why 99.9% of Western children do not eat dogs or cats? Or maybe it is because their parents filter it.

[Tenka]

Is that why 99.9% of Western children do not eat dogs or cats? Or maybe it is because their parents filter it.

In western cultures children tend to be brought up valuing cats and dogs and similar companion animals above all other animals, sometimes even to treat them like family. I'm sure many would eat a dog or cat if it was cooked and prepared to their taste, and maybe presented as some other sort of meat (porkchops?). :lol:

Anyway, I can't be sure if that law in France is more to do with not wanting children to be inappropriately nourished in their development, or just being arseholes. With France, you never know.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Is that why 99.9% of Western children do not eat dogs or cats? Or maybe it is because their parents filter it.

Or maybe, it's because that meat isn't readily available on offer? I know I'd love to eat dog.

[Leo]

A governmental order issued on October 2, 2011(1) has determined that all meals served in school canteens in France must contain animal products, and that meat and fish will be served at a certain minimum frequency. This implies that by law from now on no vegetarian can eat at any public or private school in France.

Nope, dears. It only means that you will have to pick the food in your plate. Or bring your meal from home.

Not even. It only means that meat and fish will be served at a certain minimum frequency in the meals served in school canteens - not that other sorts of dishes aren't served or that the students are forced to eat them, or can't ask for something else etc. It sounds like a healthy diet for children type of regulation rather than an anti-vegetarian one.

No one is oppressing vegetarians, and no one cares if vegetarians don't eat meat or forces them to do so. Please understand how ridiculous the "oh they are forcing vegetarians to eat meat" line sounds to someone living in the Middle East. Meat isn't cheap, if you haven't noticed.

[Comrade #138672]

Not even. It only means that meat and fish will be served at a certain minimum frequency in the meals served in school canteens - not that other sorts of dishes aren't served or that the students are forced to eat them, or can't ask for something else etc. It sounds like a healthy diet for children type of regulation rather than an anti-vegetarian one.

No one is oppressing vegetarians, and no one cares if vegetarians don't eat meat or forces them to do so.Ah. That actually seems good, to be honest.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

I recall the time when my parents (or at least my mum) went through a phase of vegetarianism, meaning that we had no meat in the house (although there was at least one time I was permitted to eat chicken when visiting a family friend's place).

It was a situation I don't particularly remember enjoying, but luckily for me it didn't last long after we moved up to north Wales, and it wasn't too much time after that we started having a Sunday roast-type meal with such unusual (for a previously city-dwelling kid like I was, anyway) meats such as pheasant, venison, shark and alligator (or was it crocodile?). I reckon the extra disposable income we had might have had something to do with that.

Mind you, even at our most vegetarian we still consumed a fair amount of dairy, so as distinctly unrewarding an experience I found vegetarianism, I think veganism would have made me truly miserable - no eggs, milk, butter or cheese!

I went to vegan food fair once - one can't be too choosy when one is unemployed and squatting - and while the food tasted good, especially the vegan cheese, it lacked a certain... solidity? I don't know, there's something about foods rich in animal proteins that makes them properly stick to the inside of one's stomach, and I'm pretty sure that's not just a subjective impression. Thoughts?

[Fourth Internationalist]

Children don't usually "choose" to be vegetarian; when they are, often it is because their zealous veggie parents want it.

Children don't choose to be meat eaters, either.



While children are growing, and their brains developing, it's probably not a bad idea to disallow schools to serve low-fat vegan affairs to them.

Well planned vegan diets are healthy for all people at all stages of life.

[Tim Cornelis]

Disgusting...

http://images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/10625/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_204109.jpg



Well planned vegan diets are healthy for all people at all stages of life.

Not necessarily.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/vegetarian-diet-bad-for-children-1-736972

Though, arguably creatine supplements could be used to "doubled physical capability and enhanced mental acuity," as it is proven to do exactly that. But really, how many vegans do that safe for body builders?

[Leftsolidarity]

Children don't usually "choose" to be vegetarian; when they are, often it is because their zealous veggie parents want it. While children are growing, and their brains developing, it's probably not a bad idea to disallow schools to serve low-fat vegan affairs to them.

And as has been said, if they can't afford to bring their own lunch, they can always pick out the non-animal parts of school meals to eat, if they must avoid animal-derived foods.

I've actually never known this to be true except for a few Hindu friends I had as a kid. Myself and everyone else I know who became a vegetarian did so under their own ambition and usually against their parent's will.

Why can't they easily accomidate the different religious/ethical beliefs of the student body and provide some meat-free meals? Even if everyone here likes to chuckle and laugh at vegetarians for some reason, some people are vegetarians for religious reasons and to deny them any options in the public school system is discriminatory.

[Tenka]

Fortunately Leo a few posts above cleared this whole thing up for us.

Leftsolidarity: I meant young children. Of course they don't choose to be meat-eaters as opposed to vegetarians either; they will eat whatever's given to them, unless they really don't like the look, smell or taste of it.

TimCornelis: Dog carcasses. These images are thrown around by animal liberationists and the like to shock suburbanites or some such sort of people who can't bring themselves to view a dog as just another non-human animal into forswearing meat, or CARCASS/FLESH as they sometimes prefer to put it. I am frankly amused. Apropos of your link, I have seen at least two stories of vegan parents killing their infants with some sort of "vegan formula" or something. It's depressing stuff.

P.S. (this is not directed at anyone but inspired by people in the article TimCornelis linked) "Organic" is by no means healthier and iirc the majority of it is farmed in the PRC.

[Comrade #138672]

Disgusting...

http://images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/10625/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_204109.jpg



Not necessarily.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/vegetarian-diet-bad-for-children-1-736972

Though, arguably creatine supplements could be used to "doubled physical capability and enhanced mental acuity," as it is proven to do exactly that. But really, how many vegans do that safe for body builders?That looks really horrible. Couldn't they at least do that in different rooms? The dogs are directly staring their coming death in the face.

[hatzel]

Yeah I think Leo's right about this; I've just checked the actual law they refer to in the original article on Legifrance, and whilst my French is a little rusty, as far as I can make out it only says that canteens are obligated to provide 'four or five dishes offered at each meal, of which necessarily one dish is a main meal with side, and a dairy product.' Isn't immediately clear to me whether the dairy product can be distinct from the main meal with side, possibly comprising two meals in total, or whether the main meal with side must also include a dairy product. Nor is it clear how you determine whether something deserves the title of 'main meal.' Either way it doesn't exactly correspond to 'all meals served in school canteens in France must contain animal products,' the claim made by EVU (though it does admittedly mandate that you can't legally run a vegan canteen in a school/hospital/etc., but that's a rather different matter, isn't it? Something tells me that's what's really rubbed the author of the article up the wrong way, and they're just trying to make it seem far worse than it really is)

But there may very well be additional information somewhere, because it also demands, for example, 'compliance with the minimum requirements of variety of dishes served,' yet doesn't specify what exactly these minium requirements are. And mentions 'appropriately sized portions' but again gives no details as to what that means. The rest is just boring stuff about offering water and bread, proper labelling of ingredients and record keeping for the authorities. So perhaps there's some other law somewhere that clarifies all this and for some reason says that there has to be meat everywhere, I dunno, but if there is, I can't find it in the specific law referenced in the original article, so if they knew where it was, they should be a little more precise...


Why can't they easily accomidate the different religious/ethical beliefs of the student body and provide some meat-free meals?

Not to be finicky but it's not quite as easy as you want to make it seem. I don't know the exact details of the stringencies of other religions but it is highly unlikely that any 'mainstream' canteen could serve strictly kasher food unless they went very much out of the way to do so, that is to say, maintained absolute separation between the ovens, pots, crockery, cutlery and other utensils used in the preparation and serving of non-kasher food (not to mention the subsequent cleaning of those utensils) and those used for the preparation and serving of kasher food (including a subsequent separation between meaty kasher utensils, dairy kasher utensils and perhaps even a third category), as well as employing an observant Jewish chef to oversee the entire process, which is hardly feasible unless you have a sizable Jewish contingent at the school.

Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that food that was cooked in a vessel which had previously been used to cook, for example, pork, without subsequently being thoroughly cleaned at least 3 times is not considered halal (at least not by some), so again it's not necessarily as simple as just having a Muslim child take a vegetarian or vegan option, expecting it to necessarily be halal. Instead, the school might have to consciously ensure that halal food is available. And don't even get me started on the possibility of a Nyabinghi Rastafari looking for some ital food, man alive! Clearly there have to be some limitations as to how much we can genuinely expect of a public canteen, and at some point we just have to stop and say 'dude, just bring a packed lunch or something.' Though I admit that I once took a packed lunch to a university canteen and somebody working there said I wasn't allowed to bring my own food so I swore at them and made wild accusations until they decided it would be better to just let me do my own thing. Again, though, that's another matter.

[Quail]

Apropos of your link, I have seen at least two stories of vegan parents killing their infants with some sort of "vegan formula" or something. It's depressing stuff.

I read a story where the parents were feeding their baby plain old soya milk instead of breast milk, which is clearly not nutritionally adequate. On the other hand, soya baby formula is available for babies who can't tolerate dairy, which I suppose would have been fine. Anyway, my point is that it wasn't exactly the diet being vegan that was the problem, it was the diet being nutritionally inadequate. I don't know how anyone could know so little about nutrition as to think that soya milk is an adequate substitute for breast milk though.

[Luís Henrique]

And as has been said, if they can't afford to bring their own lunch, they can always pick out the non-animal parts of school meals to eat, if they must avoid animal-derived foods.

Or... they can take advantage of the situation, and eat those delicious foods their stupid parents forbid at home.

I know if I were a kid in a vegetarian family, that's what I would do.

De la viande, mmmmmm... oulala.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Children don't choose to be meat eaters, either.

Nope; they usually choose to be candy eaters. Unless, of course, they have vegetarian parents.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

The dogs are directly staring their coming death in the face.

And, apparently, not really understanding what they are staring at.

As I would expect of dogs.

Luís Henrique

[Quail]

Nope; they usually choose to be candy eaters. Unless, of course, they have vegetarian parents.

Luís Henrique
Vegetarian candy exists, you know. Even vegan gummy bears. Vegetarian and vegan diets don't just consist of grass.

[Luís Henrique]

Vegetarian candy exists, you know. Even vegan gummy bears. Vegetarian and vegan diets don't just consist of grass.

Ah, I guess I wasn't clear.

I mean most children choose to eat sweets. Except children with vegetarian parents, who will probably choose to eat meat.

Luís Henrique

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

Disgusting...

http://images.dpchallenge.com/images_portfolio/10000-14999/10625/800/Copyrighted_Image_Reuse_Prohibited_204109.jpg

How is that image any worse than if it was showing pig carcasses?

Especially since as it turns out, pigs are closer to cats and dogs, rather than cows and sheep, in terms of overall intelligence.

[Quail]

@Luis Henrique, I misunderstood, sorry. I think a substantial number of children raised vegetarian remain vegetarian though. I know a few people who have been vegetarian all their lives.


How is that image any worse than if it was showing pig carcasses?

Especially since as it turns out, pigs are closer to cats and dogs, rather than cows and sheep, in terms of overall intelligence.
I think many people in the UK would find it worse to look at because we associate dogs with pets, and cruelty to dogs and other pets is very much frowned upon here, whereas I guess people don't care about the animals they consider to be food regardless of how intelligent they might be.

[The Cheshire Cat]

Meh.

Personally I think vegetarianism is a fucking stupid idea that shouldn't be encouraged, so this doesn't bother me at all.

I realise this makes me an asshole, but that doesn't bother me either!

I really hate this attitude... and no, I'm not a vegetarian. I just despise this macho-meat attitude. I personally really don't give a shit what someone else decides to eat, and I am not going to interfere in it either. Also, nobody was talking about encouraging/promoting vegetarianism, but people were talking about a law that apparently makes it illegal to not serve meat. Now that is a fucking stupid idea that should not be encouraged.

And just for fun some quotes on vegetarianism from some random dudes:
“It is my view that the vegetarian manner of living, by its purely physical effect on the human temperament, would most beneficially influence the lot of mankind.”
― Albert Einstein

“Non-violence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution. Until we stop harming all other living beings, we are still savages.”
― Thomas A. Edison

For as long as men massacre animals, they will kill each other. Indeed, he who sows the seed of murder and pain cannot reap joy and love. ~Pythagoras, mathematician

Truely man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds theirs. We live by the death of others: we are burial places! I have from an early age abjured the use of meat, and the time will come when men such as I will look on the murder of animals as they now look on the murder of men. ~Leonardo da Vinci

[Tenka]

but people were talking about a law that apparently makes it illegal to not serve meat. Now that is a fucking stupid idea that should not be encouraged.

Why is it stupid for schools to be forbidden to not serve any meat? In general, meat helps the growth of children, and probably they would serve it a lot less frequently if not for the law, considering the price of it. The law does not infringe vegans' ability to not eat meat if they so choose.

[Red Commissar]

Yeah looking at this law it just seems like the government mandating some sort of standard for the food they are providing meets what they consider to be the nutritional standards of the child. Apparently some of this includes meat. It does not seem like vegetarian eating was banned in France though.

If there's an issue here it's more that the entrees are probably not designed with vegetarians in mind, and this is not just in France but in most of the other world too honestly.

When I was a kid we had a sizable community of peoples from South Asia - both Hindus that didn't eat meat and the couple of Muslims who followed the eating standards to a letter when it came to halaal meats (not just avoiding pork, as many of the other Muslims did here did it seems)- who could not eat the meat the school was serving.

Because a significant chunk of the student body was this way, school meals were eventually designed to offer two options for the entrees- one that did have meat and another that didn't. AFAIK they never did this for vegans, but it's over 10 years since I was eating school lunches.

That being said some school lunches were pretty atrocious when it came down to it, even the veggies and such. They aren't generous with spending when it comes to school lunches, especially if you're in a district that gets less funding.

[melvin]

Vegetarian candy exists, you know. Even vegan gummy bears. Vegetarian and vegan diets don't just consist of grass.wait...what candy is not vegetarian?

[Skyhilist]

Or maybe, it's because that meat isn't readily available on offer? I know I'd love to eat dog.

Cat and dog meat isn't readily available in the Western world? And THAT is why people here don't eat cats and dogs? You've gotta be kidding me. Almost everyone has a cat or a dog here or has had one at some point. If people wanted to eat cat or dog we'd be able too.

[goalkeeper]

Cat and dog meat isn't readily available in the Western world? And THAT is why people here don't eat cats and dogs? You've gotta be kidding me. Almost everyone has a cat or a dog here or has had one at some point. If people wanted to eat cat or dog we'd be able too.

Having the animal live in your house does not translate into having cat or dog meat readily available. How many people slaughter, skin, debone etc their own meat? Most people have neither the stomach nor time for such things in the West.

[Sasha]

wait...what candy is not vegetarian?

Most soft candy isn't, they contain gelatin which is made of ground up cow bones..

[Leftsolidarity]

Most soft candy isn't, they contain gelatin which is made of ground up cow bones..

That was the worst when I was a vegetarian. No Lucky Charms :(

[Fourth Internationalist]

Not necessarily.

http://www.scotsman.com/news/health/vegetarian-diet-bad-for-children-1-736972

Though, arguably creatine supplements could be used to "doubled physical capability and enhanced mental acuity," as it is proven to do exactly that. But really, how many vegans do that safe for body builders?

“It is the position of the American Dietetic Association that appropriately planned vegetarian diets, including total vegetarian or vegan diets, are healthful, nutritionally adequate and may provide health benefits in the prevention and treatment of certain diseases. Well-planned vegetarian diets are appropriate for individuals during all stages of the life-cycle including pregnancy, lactation, infancy, childhood and adolescence and for athletes.”

Also,

http://www.pcrm.org/

[Fourth Internationalist]

Why is it stupid for schools to be forbidden to not serve any meat? In general, meat helps the growth of children, and probably they would serve it a lot less frequently if not for the law, considering the price of it. The law does not infringe vegans' ability to not eat meat if they so choose.

Vegetarians and vegans don't and can't live on side dishes, so yes, it does infringe on our rights.

[Tenka]

Vegetarians and vegans don't and can't live on side dishes, so yes, it does infringe on our rights.

But the law requires no such thing.

hatzel, earlier:

Yeah I think Leo's right about this; I've just checked the actual law they refer to in the original article on Legifrance, and whilst my French is a little rusty, as far as I can make out it only says that canteens are obligated to provide 'four or five dishes offered at each meal, of which necessarily one dish is a main meal with side, and a dairy product.' Isn't immediately clear to me whether the dairy product can be distinct from the main meal with side, possibly comprising two meals in total, or whether the main meal with side must also include a dairy product. Nor is it clear how you determine whether something deserves the title of 'main meal.' Either way it doesn't exactly correspond to 'all meals served in school canteens in France must contain animal products,' the claim made by EVU (though it does admittedly mandate that you can't legally run a vegan canteen in a school/hospital/etc., but that's a rather different matter, isn't it? Something tells me that's what's really rubbed the author of the article up the wrong way, and they're just trying to make it seem far worse than it really is)

...

[Rugged Collectivist]

I have to admit the picture of the slaughtered dogs was... jarring. I usually don't mind seeing animal carcasses but the look on the dogs face got me. It looked like it was smiling, then you look down and BAM, exposed ribs. My opinion on eating dogs hasn't changed though because I don't form my opinions around gut reactions.

The reason I have never eaten dog or cat is because it has never, ever, not once been served to me in my life. I've also never seen it in any grocery store or restaurant. If you wanted to eat dog you would either have to find one in a back ally and do your own dirty work (which no one wants to, and I'm pretty sure it's illegal anyway) or you have to get it imported from some place which would probably be expensive and hard.

As NoXion said, we have no problem eating pigs, which are intelligent. In fact, Muslims and Jews might call you gross for eating pigs and shellfish.