Examples of "communism" in action?

[Slippers]

Alright; so basically, I'm confused. Before you jump on me, please try and realize that I'm new and I'm learning. I've read "The Communist Manifesto" and I've started "Das Kapital" (it's impenetrable) and a good bit of "An Anarchist FAQ", but I'm not very well-versed on marxist/leftist theory by any means.

In the past when I've asked "what might a Communist society look like" people seem to act like that's a stupid question. They might say "we don't know, one has never existed" or repeat the dictionary definition of a stateless, classless society. I'm not interested in those answers. I want to know if anyone thinks there's some sort of example of an at least communistic system working well? Because while I'm anti-capitalism I feel there needs to be something I can point to and say "yes, it actually works, it's not just some silly utopian idea, it's practical too".

There are several examples I can think of, personally; examples that might not meet the strictest definition of communism (which I see people argue about here and elsewhere relentlessly) but that I do think show collectivism and social orders that AREN'T capitalistic can work.

I personally disagree with the idea that you can't have communism period unless the whole world has done away with Capitalism. I see that as silly.

I can point to open source software and how it's collaboratively created as an example (indeed the collaborative nature of the Internet and especially FLOSS software projects is what got me into leftist thinking in the first place, and what made me think that maybe it's not so utopian to think of an alternative to Capitalism after all). Of course this is on the Internet (a "post-scarcity society") so Capitalism can sort of easily fall apart in that environment, but still, the example remains.

Parts of Anarchist Spain during the Spanish Civil War I've heard be used as examples as well. I need to learn more about that period in history.

I'm probably making all manner of assumptions and generalizations. Please bear with me.

[Blake's Baby]

Alright; so basically, I'm confused. Before you jump on me, please try and realize that I'm new and I'm learning. I've read "The Communist Manifesto" and I've started "Das Kapital" (it's impenetrable) and a good bit of "An Anarchist FAQ", but I'm not very well-versed on marxist/leftist theory by any means.

In the past when I've asked "what might a Communist society look like" people seem to act like that's a stupid question. They might say "we don't know, one has never existed" or repeat the dictionary definition of a stateless, classless society. I'm not interested in those answers. I want to know if anyone thinks there's some sort of example of an at least communistic system working well? Because while I'm anti-capitalism I feel there needs to be something I can point to and say "yes, it actually works, it's not just some silly utopian idea, it's practical too"...

OK. But, as an analogy, what could (say) Orville and Wilbur Wright point to when they said 'well, it's a bit like a kite and a bit like a lawnmower, honestly it's going to work?'

By necessity, until something has been achieved, it hasn't been achieved


...There are several examples I can think of, personally; examples that might not meet the strictest definition of communism (which I see people argue about here and elsewhere relentlessly) but that I do think show collectivism and social orders that AREN'T capitalistic can work....

So, talk about them.


...I personally disagree with the idea that you can't have communism period unless the whole world has done away with Capitalism. I see that as silly...

So, you're probably going to ignore anything I say to you.

Capitalism is a world system, you can no more stop one locality being capitalist than you can cure leukemia in one finger.


...I can point to open source software and how it's collaboratively created as an example (indeed the collaborative nature of the Internet and especially FLOSS software projects is what got me into leftist thinking in the first place, and what made me think that maybe it's not so utopian to think of an alternative to Capitalism after all). Of course this is on the Internet (a "post-scarcity society") so Capitalism can sort of easily fall apart in that environment, but still, the example remains.

Parts of Anarchist Spain during the Spanish Civil War I've heard be used as examples as well. I need to learn more about that period in history.

I'm probably making all manner of assumptions and generalizations. Please bear with me.

Co-operation is inherent in human culture, it's even inherent in capitalism. All labour, pretty much, is co-operative. But that's not exactly the point.

Capitalism relies on social (co-operative) production, but individual (or minority) expropriation. It's not about who makes what, but who benefits.

[Slippers]

I'm open to the idea that somehow Communism cannot exist if Capitalism exists, but that just seems rather extreme to me... I mean, what if a commune of people DOES practise communistic living/economics and without a state? Are we to say that it's not "really" Communism because elsewhere on the planet people engage in Capitalistic market economics? Likewise, if the whole world was Communistic but several people decided to try and use money and be Capitalists and bla bla bla (I realize it wouldn't work) would that make the "Communism" that exists elsewhere in the world suddenly not Communism? That's what I mean when I say it seems silly. You may have another idea of this and I could be totally wrong, but if so, please by all means explain it to me because my current understanding is limited.

I am often challenged to bring up examples of "Communism working" when debating with Capitalists. I know the standard line from a lot of leftists is that "we've never experienced Communism ever so we have no idea how it would look or work", and let me tell you: that is NOT a good way of winning arguments. I want to know if there's anything that anyone else thinks is an example of that.

I assume you're of the position that the Paris Commune, parts of Spain in the Spanish Civil War, the "FLOSS" I mentioned etc. are NOT examples of Communism in action, am I correct? Would I be more correct in calling these things Socialism?

[#FF0000]

words

There is "primitive communism" -- Marx and Engel's term for hunter-gatherer societies, which were generally stateless and classless with no private property. However, they were stateless and classless and property-less because these societies didn't produce any surplus. A communist society would be one of super-abundance, to contrast.

[Brutus]

Am example of the dictatorship of the proletariat, if you are looking for that, would be the paris commune.

[Dave B]

1844 Letter from Engels to Marx in Paris


The Teutons are all still very muddled about the practicability of communism; to dispose of this absurdity I intend to write a short pamphlet showing that communism has already been put into practice and describing in popular terms how this is at present being done in England and America. [12] (http://www.revleft.com/vb/#n12) The thing will take me three days or so, and should prove very enlightening for these fellows. I’ve already observed this when talking to people here.


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/letters/44_10_01.htm#n12

Eg.


Frederick Engels Description of Recently Founded Communist Colonies Still in Existence; Written: in mid-October 1844




Amongst these people no one is obliged to work against his will, and no one seeks work in vain. They have no poor-houses and infirmaries, having not a single person poor and destitute, nor any abandoned widows and orphans; all their needs are met and they need fear no want. In their ten towns there is not a single gendarme or police officer, no judge, lawyer or soldier, no prison or penitentiary; and yet there is proper order in all their affairs. The laws of the land are not for them and as far as they are concerned could just as well be abolished and nobody would notice any difference for they are the most peaceable citizens and have never yielded a single criminal for the prisons. They enjoy, as we said, the most absolute community of goods and have no trade and no money among themselves.


http://www.marxists.org/archive/marx/works/1844/10/15.htm





The example of the shaker communes were seminal for the early communist movement.

[Red Nightmare]

Communism has never been established before because it is a world system that requires the world system of capitalism to be totally abolished first.We haven't had a classless, stateless society before so we haven't had communism. The instances you cite are examples of anti-capitalism in action but not established communism.

[NoOneIsIllegal]

If you're looking for examples of people working for a better world in a completely voluntary manner, look at firefighters. Almost 75% of firefighters in the U.S.A. are voluntary (little-to-no-pay). I doubt I need to explain the heroic imagery firefighters carry in this country.

[Lokomotive293]

This may not be exactly what you're looking for, but the best thing to counter the "Communism is just a utopian dream and completely unrealistic" argument is to point out just how much capitalism has already given us everything we need to build socialism: The concentration and centralization of capital, at least in the Imperialist states, has gone to a point, where 1) a few monopolies control the whole economy, and 2) the actual owners of those monopolies are literally not doing anything productive anymore (in most cases they don't even lead their own corporations, they pay others to do that), they just manage their money. So, it's never been easier than today for the workers to take over the economy, organize it according to a central plan, and with the purpose of fulfilling their own needs. Because all the foundations have been laid, and all there's really left to do is to expropriate the bourgeoisie.

[The Idler]

A.5 What are some examples of "Anarchy in Action"? | Anarchist ... (http://anarchism.pageabode.com/afaq/secA5.html)

[Catma]

I don't really have an answer for you, but I'd like to point out that I too am annoyed by those who say it's completely futile to talk about what future society could look like. I feel that should be part of the function of those like us on the left at this time, to work out how various problems COULD be dealt with (emphasis on could vs would.) I've seen very few examples of a description of a fleshed out political or production system for use in socialism. Some parties put forth decent first steps of changes that could be made to the way society works, but they could also be argued for by reformist capitalists. Plans made to finish the power of the bourgeoisie are never very detailed and often lack even insight into the obstacles that must be overcome. In this manner they're not very serious.

[chase63]

what if a commune of people DOES practise communistic living/economics and without a state? Are we to say that it's not "really" Communism because elsewhere on the planet people engage in Capitalistic market economics?

The commune would still have to fit into the capitalist world. It would have to support itself as a whole by either selling products or services (in which case it would be a corporation) or the members of the commune would have outside jobs (which makes them part of the capitalist system) and then use that money to finance the commune (at that point, whats the purpose of living on a commune?)

Basically, the activities of the commune wouldn't really be socialist, as it would operate in a market.

[Slavoj Zizek's Balls]

I'm open to the idea that somehow Communism cannot exist if Capitalism exists, but that just seems rather extreme to me... I mean, what if a commune of people DOES practise communistic living/economics and without a state? Are we to say that it's not "really" Communism because elsewhere on the planet people engage in Capitalistic market economics? Likewise, if the whole world was Communistic but several people decided to try and use money and be Capitalists and bla bla bla (I realize it wouldn't work) would that make the "Communism" that exists elsewhere in the world suddenly not Communism? That's what I mean when I say it seems silly. You may have another idea of this and I could be totally wrong, but if so, please by all means explain it to me because my current understanding is limited.

I am often challenged to bring up examples of "Communism working" when debating with Capitalists. I know the standard line from a lot of leftists is that "we've never experienced Communism ever so we have no idea how it would look or work", and let me tell you: that is NOT a good way of winning arguments. I want to know if there's anything that anyone else thinks is an example of that.

I assume you're of the position that the Paris Commune, parts of Spain in the Spanish Civil War, the "FLOSS" I mentioned etc. are NOT examples of Communism in action, am I correct? Would I be more correct in calling these things Socialism?


I must state that Communism has never been implemented. No where have I seen, since the emergence of the state and class division, a stateless, moneyless and classless society that owns it's means of production communally.

These events that you have made reference to (Paris commune, Catalonia etc.) are examples of transitions towards Communism that did away with private ownership for a short time.

Combine these examples with criticisms of the Capitalist economy as well as the dual ability of human beings to be both selfish and selfless, in which the greedy side is exploited by Capitalism, and you have an argument.