Question for people with obvious far-left political tattoos

[melvin]

Does this not make you worried about what will happen to you if shit ever hits the fan in the western world as far as serious crackdowns on political dissidents? No matter how capable of keeping your mouth shut you are, you have a label of your political views on your body. I'm not asking this to be snarky, I'm genuinely curious.

[Sasha]

the cops dont need my tattoos to have a file inches thick on me..

[melvin]

the cops dont need my tattoos to have a file inches thick on me..Good response. I personally don't even understand how people can feel comfortable being very publicly involved in radical politics. But I am a very paranoid person when it comes to the authorities and very pessimistic when it comes to the future political situation in the western world.

[Os Cangaceiros]

It is a fair point in that tattoos probably won't really matter much when they start building cases. But on the other hand it is definitely a detriment to plausible deniability, i.e. it's pretty hard to deny that you hold far left beliefs when you have a giant hammer and sickle tattooed on your back.

[melvin]

It is a fair point in that tattoos probably won't really matter much when they start building cases. But on the other hand it is definitely a detriment to plausible deniability, i.e. it's pretty hard to deny that you hold far left beliefs when you have a giant hammer and sickle tattooed on your back.Or if they start going after people who do not have a solid history of activism and where it is ambiguous whether or not they hold radical beliefs, but then that person has a circle-A tattooed on their arm.

[human strike]

It is a fair point in that tattoos probably won't really matter much when they start building cases. But on the other hand it is definitely a detriment to plausible deniability, i.e. it's pretty hard to deny that you hold far left beliefs when you have a giant hammer and sickle tattooed on your back.

I know things are very different now, but if we look at the Spanish Civil War for example, it didn't take anywhere near as much as a tattoo - let alone a police file - to be shot on suspicion of being on the wrong side.

Tattoos are often a part of the fancy dress of roleplay revolution; the activist uniform, where appearance is a substitute for being and identifying as a revolutionary is just another role within the spectacle for us to consume, "just another product for the consumer's head" - Crass references FTW! (http://www.eco-action.org/dod/no9/activism.htm)

But the real reason I don't like tattoos is because the idea of getting one creeps me out. And, like, how can you commit to something like that? It baffles me. xD

[melvin]

I know things are very different now, but if we look at the Spanish Civil War for example, it didn't take anywhere near as much as a tattoo - let alone a police file - to be shot on suspicion of being on the wrong side.Yeah, but someday it probably won't be much different...

[Os Cangaceiros]

Tattoos and other visible markings have been known to link people to criminal activity, though. One guy around where I live was identified as a murderer who was on the run or in hiding or something, initially because of a tattoo on his forearm. Obviously in a situation where people are being dragged outside and shot at random it's not going to matter much, but we're not there yet.

[bcbm]

no permanent identifying marks

[human strike]

Tattoos and other visible markings have been known to link people to criminal activity, though. One guy around where I live was identified as a murderer who was on the run or in hiding or something, initially because of a tattoo on his forearm. Obviously in a situation where people are being dragged outside and shot at random it's not going to matter much, but we're not there yet.

Actually my point was that it does make a difference in that situation. It took very little to be condemned but also took little to be saved. Anonymity is a very powerful tool that is heavily under-appreciated by the revolutionary left (said the user called 'whatever singularity' - jeez, I'm such a cliché - point still stands though).

[Luís Henrique]

no permanent identifying marks

That. Not even non-political ones.

Or else, having unlimited faith in bourgeois democracy.

Luís Henrique

[Le Libérer]

Does this not make you worried about what will happen to you if shit ever hits the fan in the western world as far as serious crackdowns on political dissidents? No matter how capable of keeping your mouth shut you are, you have a label of your political views on your body. I'm not asking this to be snarky, I'm genuinely curious.
When I got mine, I showed it to REdstar2000. He said, "You are just asking to be waterboarded". He wasn't joking.

[Sentinel]

I see psycho's point, and I have no doubt the relevant authorities do have a nice little file about me too. So I'd probably also be screwed in any case in a situation such as described in the OP, but on the other hand I'd still not feel comfortable with that kind of tattoos.

There is still a chance, small or not, of getting to escape if not immediately recognised, which I won't forfeit. I'll much rather be this regular looking guy who might not instantly be recognised as a communist, than someone who will be brought into custody because of suspicious looking tattoos and then identified.

Moreover, if the tattoos are visible and noted by the authorities at an earlier circumstance they would be a certain identifying factor.

[melvin]

I also am baffled at why members of serious criminal gangs get tattoos. Why would anyone put a marking on their body alerting everyone to the fact that they are a violent criminal?

[Rusty Shackleford]

I know things are very different now, but if we look at the Spanish Civil War for example, it didn't take anywhere near as much as a tattoo - let alone a police file - to be shot on suspicion of being on the wrong side.



A quick peek at someones shoulder from the front can tell you if someone may have been involved in armed confrontation or simply shooting a rifle or shotgun. At least with rifles that dont have much in the way of recoil reduction and padding on the butt.

[Art Vandelay]

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't exactly hide the fact that I'm a communist. When shit hits the fan, people will be forced to go underground for the most part anyways. Its not like I'd ever get a leftist tattoo on my forearms or something, but if its hidden under a shirt I don't see the big deal. If you openly identify as a pro-revolutionary and get into the situation where the pigs are strip searching you to look for tats, you're probably already fucked.

[Luís Henrique]

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't exactly hide the fact that I'm a communist.

Nor do I; I think it is rather pointless.


When shit hits the fan, people will be forced to go underground for the most part anyways. Its not like I'd ever get a leftist tattoo on my forearms or something, but if its hidden under a shirt I don't see the big deal.

That means always taking care on who sees you without a shirt. Casual sex? Sunbathing? Swimming? not good ideas...


If you openly identify as a pro-revolutionary and get into the situation where the pigs are strip searching you to look for tats, you're probably already fucked.

Quite probably. If however you manage to evade to the countryside, you will like to be able to get a job as a farmworker, without rising question on why you don't take your shirt out ever... or if you manage to get to a border with a fake passport, you might regret having your new identity vulnerable because of permanent markings.

Luís Henrique

[Sentinel]

I don't know about anyone else, but I don't exactly hide the fact that I'm a communist.


Of course not. But say the state has decided to start hunting communists, and you have gone underground. You have altered your looks and have a plausible looking fake ID, and get stopped at some kind of 'routine' control involving a thorough search.

You might have passed as just a regular guy to them - except for the tattoo which makes them arrest you as a suspicious person. And then when doing a proper investigation they find out you're actually this notorious international communist gangster called '9mm'.. :(

[Art Vandelay]

Nor do I; I think it is rather pointless.

Insane amounts of security culture is for the anarchists and insurrectionists. As communists we should be open with our views.


That means always taking care on who sees you without a shirt. Casual sex? Sunbathing? Swimming? not good ideas...

I don't sunbath or swim (would probably end up drowning as I can't swim well) and have been with the same women for 4 years and don't plan on being with anyone else, but I get you're point. It would force you to ensure you kept your shirt on in most situations, but I don't like taking my shirt off anyways, I'm too skinny.


Quite probably. If however you manage to evade to the countryside, you will like to be able to get a job as a farmworker, without rising question on why you don't take your shirt out ever... or if you manage to get to a border with a fake passport, you might regret having your new identity vulnerable because of permanent markings.

All which should be kept into consideration, but I don't know. First off I don't have any leftist tattoos, but I do have other ones so what is the difference really? I mean as an open communist engaged in revolutionary activity and apart of a revolutionary organization, I fully expect CSIS (Canada's domestic intelligence agency) would begin a file on me at some point. If I was ever such a big threat to them (which I'm not and probably won't ever be) surely they would also note my non-leftist tattoos as well. So I'm already screwed as far as not having 'permanent identifying marks.'

[Art Vandelay]

Of course not. But say the state has decided to start hunting communists, and you have gone underground. You have altered your looks and have a plausible looking fake ID, and get stopped at some kind of 'routine' control involving a thorough search.

You might have passed as just a regular guy to them - except for the tattoo which makes them arrest you as a suspicious person. And then when doing a proper investigation they find out you're actually this notorious international communist gangster called '9mm'.. :(

Heh I can just imagine it now. "Ah we got a 321 at the bus terminal, I repeat a 321, were going to need backup. We got em boys, 9mm is in custody."

I hope I'm that important one day ha.

[Os Cangaceiros]

Devrim and I had this exact conversation vis-à-vis strip searches a while back:

http://www.revleft.com/vb/pour-your-heart-t174182/index.html?p=2512042

[Flying Purple People Eater]

If you're thinking of travelling, getting political tattoos is a fucking bad idea.

There are places people I know have been to where you'd be shot in the street for having so much as a red star as a tattoo.

[Sentinel]

Heh I can just imagine it now. "Ah we got a 321 at the bus terminal, I repeat a 321, were going to need backup. We got em boys, 9mm is in custody."

I hope I'm that important one day ha.


:grin:

But seriously speaking, they'd probably have a list over organised people they want to arrest. Even those who aren't famous.

[Sasha]

its up to everyone themselves, i got my political tattoos because i love tattoo's and i think they should express something personally about what you are and as a counterweight to all the dodgy or outright fash tattoos in the scene's i used to hang.
yes i might be fucked if the shit really hits the fan one day, but i might be fucked for a big number of reasons that day. I will not censor myself at every turn just for a possibility in the future, to not rock the boat, thats the cowards way IMHO.
also, just a grim anecdote but those in my family that where very known as communists at the start of WWII (because they had fought in spain or had prominent positions in the CP) had a far better rate of survival than my family who where "merely" jewish. the also jewish but also famous communists where either rounded up and put in a political prisoner prison in the first days of the occupation or managed to go underground because they knew the germans would come for them soon enough. even those who got killed got at least shot by firing squat instead of worked to death or gassed in the horror camps like the rest. i know which end i would take.

[human strike]

I do think that being identifiable to the police should definitely be a consideration for many, especially those who involve themselves in direct action.


A quick peek at someones shoulder from the front can tell you if someone may have been involved in armed confrontation or simply shooting a rifle or shotgun. At least with rifles that dont have much in the way of recoil reduction and padding on the butt.

True, of course, but in the case of the SCW most of the people who were executed (summarily or otherwise) were civilians in the strictest sense and had not been involved in actual fighting.

[melvin]

yes i might be fucked if the shit really hits the fan one day, but i might be fucked for a big number of reasons that day. I will not censor myself at every turn just for a possibility in the future, to not rock the boat, thats the cowards way IMHO.cowardice is a bit of a harsh way to describe very easy precautions.

[bcbm]

I do think that being identifiable to the police should definitely be a consideration for many, especially those who involve themselves in direct action.

i have known of people who were identified and arrested by police because their tattoos poked out of clothing while involved in stuff. gotta dress real smart if you have potentially visible tattoos


I also am baffled at why members of serious criminal gangs get tattoos. Why would anyone put a marking on their body alerting everyone to the fact that they are a violent criminal?

actually some of the gangs more known for this, ms-13 for example, have started either not tattooing or members with tattoos getting them covered or removed because of the attention they draw

[hatzel]

In earlier unambiguously 'postmodern' times you could have claimed it was ironic, but new sincerity has totally ruined that little excuse :(

[NoOneIsIllegal]

I have public left-wing tattoos. I have for almost 3 years now.
1) A lot of people I'm around often (family, coworkers, friends) often go for a very long time without knowing I have tattoos because I wear long-sleeved clothing that much. Even during the summer I'm usually in a jacket most of the day because I work in a cold environment. One coworker I've known for at least a year made the comment a few weeks ago "Huh. No wonder I didn't know you had a new tattoo. You come in with a jacket every day since September." I think one person asked if I was ashamed because I never show them... the complete opposite. I'm so proud and prideful of them... I just wear long sleeves a lot! Damn job is way too cold.
2) As silly as it sounds, I've had moments where I was at the lowest point of my life, or just wondered what was the fucking point. Just simply looking down at my tattoos is a constant "upper" for me, knowing there will someday be better. As naive as this sounds, it really is an odd feeling. Especially if you trying to do something that is backbreaking and as hard as organizing your job; just having that constant reminder has got me out of so many ruts.
3) I like ink. Yes, I realize you probably think I'm dumb or foolish in your eyes. Guess what? Fuck you :)
4) Right now it really poses no danger to me for job searching, keeping a job, or police. I take it day-by-day. I'm not going to sweat over the future over some ink; I think enough people have covered that in this thread.

[melvin]

3) I like ink. Yes, I realize you probably think I'm dumb or foolish in your eyes. Guess what? Fuck you :)haha, this is being taken in a much more judgmental way than I meant. that's not what I wanted to convey.

[La Guaneña]

Insane amounts of security culture is for the anarchists and insurrectionists. As communists we should be open with our views.


Well, in some bourgeois democracy, OK. But some situations call for it, such as Latin America in the 60's. You gotta remember that McCarthy was a walk in the park compared to Op. Condor.

If you want to remain alive, you must loose your friends, family, name, history and even some physical traces, such as haircut and facial hair.

I guess that it's fair to be paranoid if you consider how many important cadres were killed in such a short time, how long-term movements were destroyed in a matter of months because of a lack of security culture.

[melvin]

yeah, I think a lot of americans and west europeans don't realize that you don't need to be significant at all to be in serious trouble when shit hits the fan, or the extreme extent that it eventually can and will.

[Art Vandelay]

Well, in some bourgeois democracy, OK. But some situations call for it, such as Latin America in the 60's. You gotta remember that McCarthy was a walk in the park compared to Op. Condor.

If you want to remain alive, you must loose your friends, family, name, history and even some physical traces, such as haircut and facial hair.

I guess that it's fair to be paranoid if you consider how many important cadres were killed in such a short time, how long-term movements were destroyed in a matter of months because of a lack of security culture.

Yes I was referring to people in situations like myself. A communist in Iran, for example, would obviously be working in different conditions.

[Crux]

I haven't got any ink myself yet, but several of the west coast comrades got hammer and sickle tattoos. Why? Because we're hella sick street gang, that's why. Socialismo o muerte.

[melvin]

I haven't got any ink myself yet, but several of the west coast comrades got hammer and sickle tattoos. Why? Because we're hella sick street gang, that's why. Socialismo o muerte.what?

[Art Vandelay]

what?

He's making fun of the Red Anarchist Action Network (RAAN).

[melvin]

hahaha wow you all know about every obscure left-wing thing on the internet, don't you?

[Art Vandelay]

hahaha wow you all know about every obscure left-wing thing on the internet, don't you?

I know about most of them yeah, for the most part of my life as a leftist my only interaction with other radicals was through the internet. You generally meet alot of differing people on here as well. I think we still have a RAAN member on the site to be honest (most of them were banned before my time on the board), although I can't remember his name. He has a Bob Avakian avatar though.

[Luís Henrique]

:grin:

But seriously speaking, they'd probably have a list over organised people they want to arrest. Even those who aren't famous.

More likely they will round people up, and sort them after that. That's what they did in Chile immediately after the coup, for instance.

Luís Henrique

[NoOneIsIllegal]

RAAN threw a brick through a window once! The revolution didn't happen afterwards though :(

[Luís Henrique]

RAAN threw a brick through a window once! The revolution didn't happen afterwards though :(

They also kicked the door of a night club, though. Now that deeply damaged capital; an insurance company had to pay for it. All the US$ 14.35!

Luís Henrique

[Narodnik]

And no one posted his tat?

[Luís Henrique]

They also kicked the door of a night club, though. Now that deeply damaged capital; an insurance company had to pay for it. All the US$ 14.35!

Probably it was the ultimate cause of the 2008 crisis! It is paving the way for revolution!

Luís Henrique

[Os Cangaceiros]

My favorite RAAN action was when they doused the RCP with a big bucket of water.

Or their communique in which they bragged about setting a squad car on fire in Kentucky, then went home and lit a fat joint, LOL. Good ol' RAAN.

[Brutus]

Heh I can just imagine it now. "Ah we got a 321 at the bus terminal, I repeat a 321, were going to need backup. We got em boys, 9mm is in custody."

I hope I'm that important one day ha.

Three cops were found with different volumes of das kapital embedded in their skulls.

[La Guaneña]

I was thinking: If tattoos are a big problem because they are unique and unremovable, what about someone with a big birthmark in a unique shape? Is that person fucked anyway?

[Brutus]

I was thinking: If tattoos are a big problem because they are unique and unremovable, what about someone with a big birthmark in a unique shape? Is that person fucked anyway?

Not unless the authorities know of it.

[Ele'ill]

This thread is pretty weird. Hey, if you have people looking for you and they know how to identify you because you have identifiable markings of any type or are wearing clothes that they can recognize then yes they are going to be able to identify you and catch you and do whatever it is that they want to do with you.


Cliffnotes- when cops review CCTV footage or whatever it is they are not just staring off into space they are taking note of height, weight, hair color, eye color, shoes, hats, backpacks, tattoos, scars, any notable limp, how you walk or run, body type, anything visible at all that can help them track you down and throw you into prison. This isn't going to change suddenly because you want to get a giant che tat on your face or because you don't want to wear a mask or because you want to wear cool shoes that day to the action.

I don't and have never understood why some people don't take this more seriously. There are no exceptions, none at all, ever.

[LOLseph Stalin]

With modern technology we would be screwed regardless of whether we have tattoos or not.

[Os Cangaceiros]

With modern technology we would be screwed regardless of whether we have tattoos or not.

It's not just about identifying you, as in "this is Mr. or Mrs. So-And-So". It's also the matter of having your allegiance to a seditious ideology branded unto your skin. It is possible to get some sort of link between so-and-so & radical left-wing politics, of course, but having some sort of marking on you that affiliates you with criminal activity (which belonging to a left-wing group would be, if and when holding left-wing politics becomes a threat again) doesn't help matters.

[Chris]

Not really. I'm far from a 'hidden' communist anyway, what with one of the first results when searching my name on google apparently being the Young Communists in Norway. If they start lining up commies to the wall, I'd be fucked with or without a tattoo. And my left-wing tattoos can be hidden with a t-shirt anyway.

[Rugged Collectivist]

It's not just about identifying you, as in "this is Mr. or Mrs. So-And-So". It's also the matter of having your allegiance to a seditious ideology branded unto your skin. It is possible to get some sort of link between so-and-so & radical left-wing politics, of course, but having some sort of marking on you that affiliates you with criminal activity (which belonging to a left-wing group would be, if and when holding left-wing politics becomes a threat again) doesn't help matters.

Yeah but if you've ever done anything openly as a communist the state is going to know about it anyway. Are you a card carrying member of a CP? Have you ever written for a left wing paper or website under your real name? Have you ever donated to a left wing party/cause/whatever with your debit card? Hell, you think everyone on this site uses a proxy? A tattoo probably won't make any difference to the state.

All that being said, right wing paramilitaries probably won't have access to the above information. So If you're ever being rounded up by black shirts or whatever a tattoo could get you killed, but so could your asshole neighbor ratting you out.

[Crixus]

Does this not make you worried about what will happen to you if shit ever hits the fan in the western world as far as serious crackdowns on political dissidents? No matter how capable of keeping your mouth shut you are, you have a label of your political views on your body. I'm not asking this to be snarky, I'm genuinely curious.
More worried about going to jail and being fed to the wolves (NAZI's).

[Crixus]

My favorite RAAN action was when they doused the RCP with a big bucket of water.

Or their communique in which they bragged about setting a squad car on fire in Kentucky, then went home and lit a fat joint, LOL. Good ol' RAAN.
Why come that didnt bring in da communism?

[Os Cangaceiros]

Hell, you think everyone on this site uses a proxy?

Everyone? Ha, I don't use a proxy. I doubt the authoritays are frantically pouring over this website, though :lol: Unless you post something incriminating (which has unfortunately happened in the past...)


Why come that didnt bring in da communism?

Nachie got all weird and New Age-y before it could become a mass movement!

[Ele'ill]

Yeah but if you've ever done anything openly as a communist the state is going to know about it anyway. Are you a card carrying member of a CP? Have you ever written for a left wing paper or website under your real name? Have you ever donated to a left wing party/cause/whatever with your debit card? Hell, you think everyone on this site uses a proxy? A tattoo probably won't make any difference to the state.

All that being said, right wing paramilitaries probably won't have access to the above information. So If you're ever being rounded up by black shirts or whatever a tattoo could get you killed, but so could your asshole neighbor ratting you out.


I don't think the state gives a shit how you identify they give a shit about what you do. I think the point is still being missed here. It's not a clever game of being a secret irrelevant communist that sits at home with snuggles the cat and drinks hot chocolate and reads history books. When that theory turns into action you don't want people to be able to pull up and go 'oh hey look you have DIE PIG tattooed on your face i bet you're probably definitely not the whoever from whatever that just did whatever.

[bcbm]

Yeah but if you've ever done anything openly as a communist the state is going to know about it anyway. Are you a card carrying member of a CP? Have you ever written for a left wing paper or website under your real name? Have you ever donated to a left wing party/cause/whatever with your debit card? Hell, you think everyone on this site uses a proxy? A tattoo probably won't make any difference to the state.

you ever heard of 'going underground?'

[Rugged Collectivist]

I don't think the state gives a shit how you identify they give a shit about what you do. I think the point is still being missed here. It's not a clever game of being a secret irrelevant communist that sits at home with snuggles the cat and drinks hot chocolate and reads history books. When that theory turns into action you don't want people to be able to pull up and go 'oh hey look you have DIE PIG tattooed on your face i bet you're probably definitely not the whoever from whatever that just did whatever.

Obviously. But I thought we were talking about a situation where communists were being summarily executed.


you ever heard of 'going underground?'

Yes. What's your point?

[bcbm]

Yes. What's your point?

harder with a tattoo than a cp card

[Narodnik]

http://libcom.org/files/images/news/monson.JPG


http://sportsjabber.net/wp-content/uploads/2009/07/jeff_monson.jpg

[Ele'ill]

oh look troll bait munchmunchmunhch

that guy is a celebrity douchebag who has pulled publicity stunts in the past in order to seem relevant as an anarchocommodity

[Ele'ill]

Obviously. But I thought we were talking about a situation where communists were being summarily executed.


I don't care what the specific threat is as we've seen in the PNW most recently they have the power to stretch the truth/depth of your association with events and I'd rather not get caught with political tattoos anywhere after-the-fact regardless of my involvement especially when the vast majority of the people facing prison are innocent and simply refusing to snitch, or who have been rounded up because of things like flags, black bandanas, having 'anarchist literature' etc.. which ironically is also shit you don't want to have on you or in your car etc.. I just don't get this conversation at all, there might be a difference between being lined up against a wall and shot for having a belief and being spied on, raided by a tactical hardsquad in the middle of the night, and thrown in prison but I'd like to avoid both.



although I would like to get political tattoos I have some pretty good ideas, but I won't