Muslim women send message to Femen

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Muslim women send message to Femen (http://stream.aljazeera.com/story/201304050033-0022659)

Interesting read, and so are some of the comments.

[hatzel]

Knowing Femen they'll probably just dismiss this as yet another example of the 'Arab mentality' infecting our societies or whatever exactly it is they say...

[Quail]

Interesting article. Perhaps FEMEN should have focused on showing solidarity with Amina(?) instead of taking on Islamism directly. I don't think it's Femen's place to try to lead muslim women's struggle against patriarchy. The best thing to do would be to see what they (Femen) could do to best support their struggle and be allies that way.

I like Femen less and less as I read more about them. If they want to de-sexualise breasts, they're going about it the wrong way. If they really want to get their message across, they're also going about it the wrong way. I think their methods are ineffective at best, and probably damaging to the feminist movement as a whole.

[Luís Henrique]

I like Femen less and less as I read more about them. If they want to de-sexualise breasts, they're going about it the wrong way. If they really want to get their message across, they're also going about it the wrong way. I think their methods are ineffective at best, and probably damaging to the feminist movement as a whole.

If they wanted to de-sexualise breasts, then they perhaps should chose ugly women to go topless.

I suppose their tactic is different, though. They want to bring attention to some subjects of their choice, and know that nudity will bring attention to themselves (and, probably mistakenly, believe that attention to themselves equates to attention to the subjects they chose).

I don't dislike them in principle, they are brave girls willing to undergo some sacrifice in favour of things they believe. The things they believe are other subject; they are usually within the scope of what the broad left in "western" countries could support. But the left in general - not only them - is certainly giving in to islamophobia under the disguise of anti-patriarchy or anti-religious-bigotry, and it seems that they have fallen for that now.

Luís Henrique

[Tim Cornelis]

FEMEN's actions were directed against Islamism, not Islam. Hence, the 'Muslimah Pride' reaction misse the point. And some reactions do as well, for example in the comment section it says FEMEN are all white and therefore they are racist and colonialist (yeah, what logic), while these women are Tunisian:

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2013/04/04/359209-burning-flag.jpg

Women should be able to dress as they will, and Islamism opposes this. Hence, should be targeted for the ultra-reactionary oppression it is.



If they wanted to de-sexualise breasts, then they perhaps should chose ugly women to go topless.

I suppose their tactic is different, though. They want to bring attention to some subjects of their choice, and know that nudity will bring attention to themselves (and, probably mistakenly, believe that attention to themselves equates to attention to the subjects they chose).

I don't dislike them in principle, they are brave girls willing to undergo some sacrifice in favour of things they believe. The things they believe are other subject; they are usually within the scope of what the broad left in "western" countries could support. But the left in general - not only them - is certainly giving in to islamophobia under the disguise of anti-patriarchy or anti-religious-bigotry, and it seems that they have fallen for that now.

Luís Henrique

How is it "Islamphobic" to oppose Islamism?



Interesting article. Perhaps FEMEN should have focused on showing solidarity with Amina(?) instead of taking on Islamism directly. I don't think it's Femen's place to try to lead muslim women's struggle against patriarchy. The best thing to do would be to see what they (Femen) could do to best support their struggle and be allies that way.

I like Femen less and less as I read more about them. If they want to de-sexualise breasts, they're going about it the wrong way. If they really want to get their message across, they're also going about it the wrong way. I think their methods are ineffective at best, and probably damaging to the feminist movement as a whole.

I have the reverse, the more I read about them the more I like them. "If they really want to get their message across," please tell me which feminist movement has garnered most attention in the last decade or two? Surely, it's FEMEN.

[Luís Henrique]

FEMEN's actions were directed against Islamism, not Islam. Hence, the 'Muslimah Pride' reaction misse the point. And some reactions do as well, for example in the comment section it says FEMEN are all white and therefore they are racist and colonialist (yeah, what logic), while these women are Tunisian:

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2013/04/04/359209-burning-flag.jpg

Well, I think this proves that at least some Tunisian people are indeed White.

But, of course, I have a lot more respect for people doing this in Tunisia than in the Ukraine or Brazil.


Women should be able to dress as they will, and Islamism opposes this.

I am yet to know any place in the world were people are "able to dress as they will". Each one of us, within our own societies, finds the way we dress "natural" and uncontroversial; but when we look at how people in other societies dress, it seems unnatural and we presume that it is somehow brutally enforced upon people.


Hence, should be targeted for the ultra-reactionary oppression it is.

Dress codes are probably the least concern as ultra-reactionary oppression goes.


How is it "Islamphobic" to oppose Islamism?

This invention of "Islamism" as something somehow opposed to "Islam" is absurd. The words are synonims; a follower of Islam is an Islamist; and the fake distinction has been invented by Islamophobes in order to be able to condemn "Islamists" and then if necessary retreat to the position that they are not attacking "Islam" but only "Islamism". We shouldn't accept such kind of codewording.

But no, "opposing Islam" or "opposing Islamism" isn't necessarily Islamophobic. What is Islamophobic is the stereotyping. Evidently, women (or men, for what is worth) should be able to dress as they wish. Also evidently, people in general wish to dress in the way it has been taught to them. So we (Americans, Brits, Brazilians) use T-shirts and blue jeans, the Yanomami wear nothing, and Arabs wear their own kind of typical dress, which seems to us to be covering too much of a human body (particularly, perhaps, covering too much of person's face, to a culture like ours, where showing your face to others is basic civility). Assuming that every Arab woman secretely, or not secretely, wishes to dress T-shirts and blue jeans is absurd, and evidently goes against their supposed right to be able do dress as they wish.


I have the reverse, the more I read about them the more I like them. "If they really want to get their message across," please tell me which feminist movement has garnered most attention in the last decade or two? Surely, it's FEMEN.

They certainly have get their breasts across on me, much more than their message... problem being whether what comes across is the content of their message, or the peculiar form they chose to express it (which, on the other hand, they certainly copied from other, much less respectable, activists, namely "animal rights" idiots using nudity to protest the use of fur).

The single individual feminist who got her message "more across" to me was Roswitha Scholz. And I have never seen her naked breasts, though.

Luís Henrique

[hatzel]

That's a problem right there. Mohammed is no Jesus. There are no communist, anarchists, pacifists, humanist, or social justice movements inspired by Mohammed, and that's for a reason.

Well that's an outright lie right there because all these things do in fact exist. Clown...


How is it "Islamphobic" to oppose Islamism?

To oppose Islamism? No problem, in theory. To claim - as Femen have and as I alluded to in my first post - that the problem with Ukraine/Europe/the world is that "as a society we haven't been able to eradicate our Arab mentality towards women," on the other hand...well, that's more than a bit sketch. And I distinctly remember that statement making quite a few waves amongst Muslim (and other) feminists, for good reason, so hostility to Femen isn't some new thing emerging in reaction to this exact campaign. To view this as some isolated incident - 'well Femen said Islamism sucks and then Muslim women got all angry thinking it was about Islam but no it's not about Islam so it's okay' - totally overlooks the fact that it's just the latest part of an ongoing antagonism between Femen and the very Arabs that they have explicitly blamed for Ukraine's/Europe's/the world's sexism, or held up as the ultimate incarnation of patriarchy, or however else you want to understand the comment.

[Luís Henrique]

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2013/04/04/359209-burning-flag.jpg

Besides that, I absolutely love the combination sported by the woman in the right - naked breasts and covered face. I wonder what tradition does such covered face belong to - is it a Muslim thing, or the kind of covered face people use in the "West" to hide their identities when doing dangerous things? Or is it both?

Luís Henrique

[Devrim]

This invention of "Islamism" as something somehow opposed to "Islam" is absurd. The words are synonims; a follower of Islam is an Islamist; and the fake distinction has been invented by Islamophobes in order to be able to condemn "Islamists" and then if necessary retreat to the position that they are not attacking "Islam" but only "Islamism". We shouldn't accept such kind of codewording.

A follower of Islam is a Muslim.

Devrim

[Luís Henrique]

A follower of Islam is a Muslim.

According to Merriam-Webster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/islamism), the prime definition of "Islamism" is:


1: the faith, doctrine, or cause of Islam

I think this redefinition of "Islamism" as


2: a popular reform movement advocating the reordering of government and society in accordance with laws prescribed by Islam

and of a distinction between "Islam" and "Islamism" is a quite modern invention, probably dating from short after September 11th, 2001, intended to demonise the whole religion while pretending to not be doing it.

Luís Henrique

[l'Enfermé]

Oh yeah let women denigrate themselves on the streets that will surely liberate them from patriarchy

[Luís Henrique]

Oh yeah let women denigrate themselves on the streets that will surely liberate them from patriarchy

How are women "denigrating" themselves?

Luís Henrique

[Devrim]

Besides that, I absolutely love the combination sported by the woman in the right - naked breasts and covered face. I wonder what tradition does such covered face belong to - is it a Muslim thing, or the kind of covered face people use in the "West" to hide their identities when doing dangerous things? Or is it both?

I would say it comes from hiding identity. She has hair coming out of the back of it.

Devrim

[Luís Henrique]

I would say it comes from hiding identity. She has hair coming out of the back of it.

Good observation (and, indeed, it seems, for what I have been reading, that the pic is not of Tunisian women, but of French women in Paris).

As we see, hiding your face can be oppressive (if it is a devout Muslim woman) or liberating (if it is a rebellious "Western" or "Westernised" person).

Here is a more controversial pic:

http://sphotos-e.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/p480x480/482263_142701192573964_307650277_n.jpg

Luís Henrique

[Conscript]

what kind of 'pride' is this? how can you be proud of your garb, it was designed by men for women's 'protection' from such.

[Luís Henrique]

I don't dislike them in principle, they are brave girls willing to undergo some sacrifice in favour of things they believe.

Literally, I mean:

http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/83/26EBD4F156A53C303EB9FEB1BBE0_h498_w598_m2.jpg

http://blu.stb.s-msn.com/i/78/495B57E0A8C8197B6F5DC807067CC_h498_w598_m2.jpg

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/wp-content/uploads/2013/03/femen-activist-istambul-shutterstock.jpg

Luís Henrique

[Tim Cornelis]

Well, I think this proves that at least some Tunisian people are indeed White.

"This proves"? What do you mean? Their actions determine their racial category?


But, of course, I have a lot more respect for people doing this in Tunisia than in the Ukraine or Brazil.

It were Tunisian women in France.


I am yet to know any place in the world were people are "able to dress as they will". Each one of us, within our own societies, finds the way we dress "natural" and uncontroversial; but when we look at how people in other societies dress, it seems unnatural and we presume that it is somehow brutally enforced upon people.

Islamism proposes strict legal dress codes, which is quite different.


Dress codes are probably the least concern as ultra-reactionary oppression goes.

But their actions are not merely opposed to that, I don't think.


This invention of "Islamism" as something somehow opposed to "Islam" is absurd. The words are synonims; a follower of Islam is an Islamist; and the fake distinction has been invented by Islamophobes in order to be able to condemn "Islamists" and then if necessary retreat to the position that they are not attacking "Islam" but only "Islamism". We shouldn't accept such kind of codewording.

No they are not. Islamism is a synonym for political islam, whereas Islam is a religion, Islamism is a political ideology. Islamism is as much a synonym for Islam as Christian democracy is a synonym for Christianity.


But no, "opposing Islam" or "opposing Islamism" isn't necessarily Islamophobic. What is Islamophobic is the stereotyping. Evidently, women (or men, for what is worth) should be able to dress as they wish. Also evidently, people in general wish to dress in the way it has been taught to them. So we (Americans, Brits, Brazilians) use T-shirts and blue jeans, the Yanomami wear nothing, and Arabs wear their own kind of typical dress, which seems to us to be covering too much of a human body (particularly, perhaps, covering too much of person's face, to a culture like ours, where showing your face to others is basic civility). Assuming that every Arab woman secretely, or not secretely, wishes to dress T-shirts and blue jeans is absurd, and evidently goes against their supposed right to be able do dress as they wish.

I don't think that's implied. From the news reports I gather they oppose the oppression of women, and in this particular campaign focus on Muslim women. No where do they seem to suggest women should prance around topless as they secretly want to.



To oppose Islamism? No problem, in theory. To claim - as Femen have and as I alluded to in my first post - that the problem with Ukraine/Europe/the world is that "as a society we haven't been able to eradicate our Arab mentality towards women," on the other hand...well, that's more than a bit sketch. And I distinctly remember that statement making quite a few waves amongst Muslim (and other) feminists, for good reason, so hostility to Femen isn't some new thing emerging in reaction to this exact campaign. To view this as some isolated incident - 'well Femen said Islamism sucks and then Muslim women got all angry thinking it was about Islam but no it's not about Islam so it's okay' - totally overlooks the fact that it's just the latest part of an ongoing antagonism between Femen and the very Arabs that they have explicitly blamed for Ukraine's/Europe's/the world's sexism, or held up as the ultimate incarnation of patriarchy, or however else you want to understand the comment.

Is that the official position of FEMEN?



They certainly have get their breast across on me, much more than their message... problem being whether what comes across is the content of their message, or the peculiar form they chose to express it (which, on the other hand, they certainly copied from other, much less respectable, activists, namely "animal rights" idiots using nudity to protest the use of fur).

The single individual feminist who got her message "more across" to me was Roswitha Scholz. And I have never seen her naked breasts, though.

Luís Henrique

On you personally, I've personally never heard of her. But talking about society in general, yes they have garnered most attention, irrespective of their message.



Oh yeah let women denigrate themselves on the streets that will surely liberate them from patriarchy


If you think breasts are "denigrating" then you need a lesson in feminism.

[Luís Henrique]

what kind of 'pride' is this? how can you be proud of your garb, it was designed by men for women's 'protection' from such.

What kind of garb do you wear?

Do you understand the reasons why it was designed?

Do you think about the historic threads that have resulted in the kind of garb you wear before dressing it in the morning?

If someone would come across you denouncing the kind of garb you wear as utterly reactionary, what would your reaction be?

Luís Henrique

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

This invention of "Islamism" as something somehow opposed to "Islam" is absurd. The words are synonims; a follower of Islam is an Islamist; and the fake distinction has been invented by Islamophobes in order to be able to condemn "Islamists" and then if necessary retreat to the position that they are not attacking "Islam" but only "Islamism". We shouldn't accept such kind of codewording.

In contemporary discourse, "Islamism" refers to theocratic movements based on Islam. And surely Islam is not somehow magically exempt from criticism, just as Judaism, Christianity and so on are not? Opposition to Islamism in the sense of theocracy, or to the Muslim religion, is often used as code for a racist bigotry against people from "Muslim" areas (even if they have nothing to do with Islam), but this does not mean we should not criticise religion and its place in society.

(Of course, the consistent socialist will criticise all religion, and not pretend as if Islam is some special religion of evil whereas Christianity, Judaism, etc. etc. are all peaceful and progressive.)


But no, "opposing Islam" or "opposing Islamism" isn't necessarily Islamophobic. What is Islamophobic is the stereotyping. Evidently, women (or men, for what is worth) should be able to dress as they wish. Also evidently, people in general wish to dress in the way it has been taught to them. So we (Americans, Brits, Brazilians) use T-shirts and blue jeans, the Yanomami wear nothing, and Arabs wear their own kind of typical dress, which seems to us to be covering too much of a human body (particularly, perhaps, covering too much of person's face, to a culture like ours, where showing your face to others is basic civility). Assuming that every Arab woman secretely, or not secretely, wishes to dress T-shirts and blue jeans is absurd, and evidently goes against their supposed right to be able do dress as they wish.

In fact, most Arabs dress about as conservatively as Europeans. Traditional Muslims will insist on covering the hair in the case of women, as do traditional mores in the Mediterranean area, but covering the face is not mandated by religion; it is associated with the extreme right of Islam.

[Quail]

I have the reverse, the more I read about them the more I like them. "If they really want to get their message across," please tell me which feminist movement has garnered most attention in the last decade or two? Surely, it's FEMEN.
Drawing attention to their bodies and drawing attention to their message are not the same thing. It seems contradictory to me to use the fact that breasts are primarily seen as sex objects and objectify yourself to get media attention and then demand not to be objectified.

Also this (http://vimeo.com/62510968) video shows femen activists shoving a sex worker with one activist having the slogan "go rape yourself" painted on herself. I find it pretty hard to support stuff like that.

This (http://feministcurrent.com/6619/there-is-a-wrong-way-to-do-feminism-and-femen-is-doing-it-wrong/) is an interesting article about femen too.

[Luís Henrique]

Drawing attention to their bodies and drawing attention to their message are not the same thing. It seems contradictory to me to use the fact that breasts are primarily seen as sex objects and objectify yourself to get media attention and then demand not to be objectified.

It wouldn't seem contradictory to me if their real intent was to counter the fetishisation of breasts.


Also this (http://vimeo.com/62510968) video shows femen activists shoving a sex worker with one activist having the slogan "go rape yourself" painted on herself. I find it pretty hard to support stuff like that.

Now that's pretty disgusting (though I suppose the "rape yourself" thing was directed against the audience, not against the sex workers). But I suppose that there are some people here in revleft who would be eager to support such kind of anti-sex-worker bigotry - and in the name of "liberation of women" no less.


This (http://feministcurrent.com/6619/there-is-a-wrong-way-to-do-feminism-and-femen-is-doing-it-wrong/) is an interesting article about femen too.

Quite interesting, indeed. But I would say that there is more than one wrong way do "do feminism" (or, as the article hints, ways of not doing feminism while pretending to do so), and that Femen only explores a little few of them.

Luís Henrique

[Quail]

It wouldn't seem contradictory to me if their real intent was to counter the fetishisation of breasts.

Personally, I wouldn't think that objectifying myself and drawing people's attention to my boobs is the best way to get the message across that people shouldn't objectify me. Honestly I just think, "Look at my breasts! Those breasts you see as sexual objects! Right, now I've got your attention (insert message/slogan)" is quite a poor way of spreading a feminist message.

Don't misunderstand me. I think that normalising naked breasts is a good thing. I'd like for it to be socially acceptable for me to remove my top if I feel like it. However I think that a better way to go about that would be to do topless actions without drawing attention to the bare breasts. If the idea is to shock people by exposing your breasts, it doesn't normalise bare breasts, it perpetuates the idea that exposing breasts should be shocking.

[Luís Henrique]

Personally, I wouldn't think that objectifying myself and drawing people's attention to my boobs is the best way to get the message across that people shouldn't objectify me. Honestly I just think, "Look at my breasts! Those breasts you see as sexual objects! Right, now I've got your attention (insert message/slogan)" is quite a poor way of spreading a feminist message.

Don't misunderstand me. I think that normalising naked breasts is a good thing. I'd like for it to be socially acceptable for me to remove my top if I feel like it. However I think that a better way to go about that would be to do topless actions without drawing attention to the bare breasts. If the idea is to shock people by exposing your breasts, it doesn't normalise bare breasts, it perpetuates the idea that exposing breasts should be shocking.

Yup.

That's why things like "Slut Walk", for instance, seem way better oriented than Femen's actions.

The day we have a bare breasted female college professor giving a lecture about, say, "Riemann's hypothesis on the non-trivial zeroes of the zeta function", or "Byzantine administrative legislation regarding Roman Law: continuity and rupture", we may have achieved the normalisation of naked breasts.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

And surely Islam is not somehow magically exempt from criticism, just as Judaism, Christianity and so on are not?

Surely not.

What is bigoted is, for instance, to attribute patriarchy in modern Eastern Europe to some supposed "Arabic" remnant in its mores (instead, as it obviously is, to remnants of Eastern European very Christian past).


(Of course, the consistent socialist will criticise all religion, and not pretend as if Islam is some special religion of evil whereas Christianity, Judaism, etc. etc. are all peaceful and progressive.)That, too - which is the reason I said above that I have more respect for people going barebreasted to denounce Islam in Tunisia than in Brazil or the Ukraine. Criticising only, or preferentially, the religions of "others" (ala Dawkins or Harris) is a sure sign of national or cultural chauvinism.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

"This proves"? What do you mean? Their actions determine their racial category?

No, the fact that they are White, ie, Caucasoid, determines the fact that they are, well, Caucasoid, ie, White. Or what "racial" category do you think they belong to?


On you personally, I've personally never heard of her.

For some strange reason, such people write in German (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roswitha_Scholz) and only get translated, of all languages, into Portuguese (http://obeco.planetaclix.pt/rst1.htm) (not into English or French or Italian or Spanish). Weird; I would like to see a materialist explanation of the phenomenon.

But yes, anyone interested in a Marxist approach to feminism should try to become acquainted to her work.


If you think breasts are "denigrating" then you need a lesson in feminism.

Man... I predict some rough weather for you in the near future...

Luís Henrique

[melvin]

Interesting article. Perhaps FEMEN should have focused on showing solidarity with Amina(?) instead of taking on Islamism directly. I don't think it's Femen's place to try to lead muslim women's struggle against patriarchy. The best thing to do would be to see what they (Femen) could do to best support their struggle and be allies that way.Femen will not do their best to "support their struggle" because Femen is a racist organization that will always promote racism.

[Luís Henrique]

Femen will not do their best to "support their struggle" because Femen is a racist organization that will always promote racism.

citation needed...

Luís Henrique

[melvin]

citation needed...

Luís HenriqueFrench members of FEMEN, living in a country where it is illegal for Muslim women to wear a hijab outside their homes, campaign for Islamist countries to not be allowed in the Olympics. But are fine with all other sorts of oppressive countries being allowed into the Olympics. Their disregard for Muslim women and willingness to promote a cultural of Islamophobia that torments Muslim women is horrible. FEMEN is a racist organization.

http://www.counterfire.org/index.php/articles/78-womens-liberation/15951-femen-protest-sharia-law-tower-bridge

[goalkeeper]

So women in Tunisia stage a provocative stunt to protest against the idea that their bodies are connected to male relatives "honour/shame" and that old men can dictate how they dress at the threat of violence, and they get called racist by a bunch of (mostly) white people on the internet?

[melvin]

So women in Tunisia stage a provocative stunt to protest against the idea that their bodies are connected to male relatives "honour/shame" and that old men can dictate how they dress at the threat of violence, and they get called racist by a bunch of (mostly) white people on the internet?They are not being accused of racism and a eurocentric form of feminism by mostly white people. Read the article in the topic post. The Muslim women who have called them "white colonial feminists" are primarily non-white.

FEMEN is an international organization primarily based in European countries which promotes Islamophobia.

[Luís Henrique]

They are not being accused of racism and a eurocentric form of feminism by mostly white people. Read the article in the topic post. The Muslim women who have called them "white colonial feminists" are primarily non-white.

Being non-White is not an adequate immunisation against being wrong.


FEMEN is an international organization primarily based in European countries which promotes Islamophobia.

There are many organisations primarily based in European countries that do not promote Islamophobia.

I have no doubt that what they are doing in this precise campaign crosses a line and gives in to Islamophobic ideas. But Islamophobia is not necessarily racist (one can be an Islamophobe and have no problems with Christian or Atheist Arabs, Persians, Indonesians, etc), and, frankly, there is a big difference between ocasionally - and probably unwittingly - indulging in Islamophobia and being an organisation that actively and purposefully promotes Islamophobia or racism.

Luís Henrique

[melvin]

Being non-White is not an adequate immunisation against being wrong.Obviously. I mentioned that because of the "mostly white" remark from the person I was responding to.


There are many organisations primarily based in European countries that do not promote Islamophobia.Again, due to the assumptions made by the person I was responding to.


I have no doubt that what they are doing in this precise campaign crosses a line and gives in to Islamophobic ideas. But Islamophobia is not necessarily racist (one can be an Islamophobe and have no problems with Christian or Atheist Arabs, Persians, Indonesians, etc), and, frankly, there is a big difference between ocasionally - and probably unwittingly - indulging in Islamophobia and being an organisation that actively and purposefully promotes Islamophobia or racism.They consistently promote this outlook.

[Luís Henrique]

They consistently promote this outlook.

Well, that's the point. Do they? (Not a rhetorical question.)

Their approach towards Muslim women seems misguided (paternalistic, or maternalistic, and somehow reverse-moralistic) but they don't seem to earnestly intend to push Muslim women down (that they actually do it, albeit having no such intention, is a different charge, and one I would more easily agree with). But maybe I am wrong, and can be convinced of such, if enough evidence is presented.

What they do seem, on the other hand, is somewhat averse to actual reasoning. They focus on their "tactic" of showing breasts, and seem to give little thought about what causes they defend, and about what their actions actually accomplish.

Luís Henrique

[brigadista]

FEMEN's arrogance is breathtaking

[Fourth Internationalist]

http://img.ibtimes.com/www/data/images/full/2013/04/04/359209-burning-flag.jpg



This is so amazing I may just start crying. Go FEMEN!

[Devrim]

Femen will not do their best to "support their struggle" because Femen is a racist organization that will always promote racism.

I don't think that calling people names is really helpful. I doubt that the people running Femen think of themselves as racists. I think that they have picked up upon a lot of racist influenced ideas in the media. That in itself does not make them racists. Though it does make their activity and propaganda extremely problematic.

Does screaming 'racist' at them address this though?

Devrim

[hatzel]

Yeah people don't get me wrong I love page after page of boring off-topic crap as much as the next guy but I think it's probably about time I drag you all back on track because Femen have been nice enough to acknowledge the criticism. Here's the statement:


They say they are against Femen, but we still say we are here for them.

They write on their posters that they don't need liberation but in their eyes it's written 'help me'.

You know, through all history of humanity, all slaves deny that they are slaves.

We are proud to share progressive ideas for all over the world, all ideologies have the place where they were born but ideology of freedom doesn't have nationality or specific location, it's a universal idea that is shared by Arab women too!

Why do they have to cover their bodies? This is beginning of the process....oh, I'm sorry, did I say 'acknowledge'? I think I must have meant 'casually brush off'...

[l'Enfermé]

They write on their posters that they don't need liberation but in their eyes it's written 'help me'.
I'm not sure whom I hate more, femen or veils at this point.

[#FF0000]

Yeah people don't get me wrong I love page after page of boring off-topic crap as much as the next guy but I think it's probably about time I drag you all back on track because Femen have been nice enough to acknowledge the criticism. Here's the statement:

...oh, I'm sorry, did I say 'acknowledge'? I think I must have meant 'casually brush off'...

Is there a class people can take to not be assholes or

Stunningly poorly done, I think.

[Quail]

Yeah people don't get me wrong I love page after page of boring off-topic crap as much as the next guy but I think it's probably about time I drag you all back on track because Femen have been nice enough to acknowledge the criticism. Here's the statement:

Quote:
They say they are against Femen, but we still say we are here for them.

They write on their posters that they don't need liberation but in their eyes it's written 'help me'.

You know, through all history of humanity, all slaves deny that they are slaves.

We are proud to share progressive ideas for all over the world, all ideologies have the place where they were born but ideology of freedom doesn't have nationality or specific location, it's a universal idea that is shared by Arab women too!

Why do they have to cover their bodies? This is beginning of the process.
...oh, I'm sorry, did I say 'acknowledge'? I think I must have meant 'casually brush off'...
Wow. How patronising.

[melvin]

Wow. FEMEN is so disgusting.

[Comrade Nasser]

Besides that, I absolutely love the combination sported by the woman in the right - naked breasts and covered face. I wonder what tradition does such covered face belong to - is it a Muslim thing, or the kind of covered face people use in the "West" to hide their identities when doing dangerous things? Or is it both?

Luís Henrique

LMAO They are burning the white & black flag of Al-Qaeda I believe. Burn baby burn! I love seeing other Arabian people who oppose Islam for what it really is. A religion that was started to unite disorganized Arab tribes and eventually ended up becoming one of the largest and most organized religions the world has ever known.

[brigadista]

FEMENs statement is lacking in any analysis and deeply arrogant and patronising

[Paul Pott]

Femen are idiots. Performing pointless stunts while half naked is one of the worst possible ways to "help" people who live under sharia law or any other form of religious obscurantism.

Islam is objectively no more inherently violent and reactionary or lacking in potential for "progressive" interpretation than any other religion. Period. Anyone who says otherwise is parroting bile straight from the mouths of fascists, zionists, and imperialist chavunists. Pick your poison. For what it's worth, Narodnik's choice of citation doesn't disappoint.

[hatzel]

Hey Narodnik couldn't you at least pretend to be talking about Femen, #MuslimahPride and/or women's struggle?

[Fourth Internationalist]

http://femen.info/files/2013/03/free-amina-titslamism.jpeg

[hatzel]

Femen are famous thieves, yes, and. posting pictures of yourself on Twitter is intensely violent, that's exactly what this discussion is all about...

Get on topic or get out.

[Soomie]

Just another case of the west trying to shove its own morals and beliefs down another country's or group's throat. People who think that ALL muslim women are oppressed because they choose to wear hijab are misinformed and are completely unwilling to see the other side's point of view.

[Quail]

Narodnik, if you want to discuss Islam, please make a thread in the Religion subforum of OI. This is a verbal warning to stay on topic.

(PS, should really have done something about this thread sooner, but haven't had a lot of time this weekend. Could do with splitting the off topic stuff into another thread.)

[Crux]

Narodnik, if you want to discuss Islam, please make a thread in the Religion subforum of OI. This is a verbal warning to stay on topic.

(PS, should really have done something about this thread sooner, but haven't had a lot of time this weekend. Could do with splitting the off topic stuff into another thread.)
Done. The new thread can be found (http://www.revleft.com/vb/narodnik-based-split-t180018/index.html?t=180018) in Opposing Ideologies Religion subforum.

[Luís Henrique]

I'm not sure whom I hate more, femen or veils at this point.

Veils, hands off.

But this doesn't mean that Femen's actions are above scrutiny, or even that they are right in this particular point.

Luís Henrique

[Luís Henrique]

Done. The new thread can be found (http://www.revleft.com/vb/narodnik-based-split-t180018/index.html?t=180018) in Opposing Ideologies Religion subforum.

Post #36 should have gone to the split thread.

Thanks in advance.

Luís Henrique

[Rottenfruit]

So women in Tunisia stage a provocative stunt to protest against the idea that their bodies are connected to male relatives "honour/shame" and that old men can dictate how they dress at the threat of violence, and they get called racist by a bunch of (mostly) white people on the internet?
pretty much its awful to see how many on the left and espicaly white Western liberal leftists are willing to give muslims a free pass on misogyny

[Rottenfruit]

Femen will not do their best to "support their struggle" because Femen is a racist organization that will always promote racism.
and another user willing to give muslims a free pass on sexism, seriously if women had tiptoed around the issue of voting rights to not offend the christian zealots in usa they would still not have the right to the vote.

[#FF0000]

and another user willing to give muslims a free pass on sexism, seriously if women had tiptoed around the issue of voting rights to not offend the christian zealots in usa they would still not have the right to the vote.

Suggesting that an organization is going about their "support" for women in the Middle East right now in a way that is patronizing at best and racist at worst, is not giving anyone "a free pass".

You are stupid or dishonest or both please stop posting until you've fixed one or both of those things

[Aristophenes McTwitch]

The best thing to do would be to see what they (Femen) could do to best support their struggle and be allies that way.


The best thing Femen can do is step aside. They have clearly shown that they have no interest in respecting women around the world who are of non-western thought, and chauvinistically patronize (or should I say "matronize"?) them about their "Arab Mentality", as if that is a defect by birth.

Femen is a bunch of Atlanticist liberal "feminists", who might as well be regarded as a fifth column in the feminist movement: Their treatment of women from the 3rd World has glaringly revealed their true colors.

[Aristophenes McTwitch]

Veils, hands off.

Luís Henrique

Indeed, veils are potent symbols of Islamic Muslimah feminism, proudly worn by many (seeing as how many women are defying the unjust veil laws in France).

[Rafiq]

Indeed, veils are potent symbols of Islamic Muslimah feminism, proudly worn by many (seeing as how many women are defying the unjust veil laws in France).

the veil is intristically sexist, but bannings and this patronizing "you dont know what you want" attitude is not only ineffective, it is counter productive. But no, the veil *is* a symbol of male dominance and sexual repression, it is at times a self imposed (though the fault is not of theirs) symbol of oppression, undeniably. It is a difficult situation. Imagine if a worker wrote a response to some naive academic radical saying current class relations are beneficial to him and give him dignity and blah blah blah. One should not shy away from genuine, direct discussion, the point though is to have a discussion not as if you are speaking to children who don't know any better, but actual adults.

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[Rafiq]

Suggesting that an organization is going about their "support" for women in the Middle East right now in a way that is patronizing at best and racist at worst, is not giving anyone "a free pass".

You are stupid or dishonest or both please stop posting until you've fixed one or both of those things

i do not know anything about Femen so i could be wrong, but wasn't their support of Ailia of Egypt and another girl (forgot her name) a form of genuine solidarity, not really patronising?

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[Rafiq]

the point is not to 'help' muslim women but to give them solidarity in their struggle to emancipate themselves.

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