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Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
1st April 2013, 03:04
So I was reading Engel's piece Law of Value and Rate of Profit and at one point I dosed off to thinking about minecraft, so then I got thinking about how full communism could possibly be achieved in minecraft. So after a bit of thought I came up with a model loosely based off of the Chinese experience. I'm not sure how to organize this so I'll just make it into sections.


Introduction to Minecraft Socialism:

The goal of any socialist society ought to be the abolition of extange, and the law of value. For our purposes this means that distribution should be collectivized, and that scarcity should be abolished so goods can be distributed from the ability (or more accurately, the productive capacity) to the need.

So for something to be distributed by the need, this would mean in practice that let's say, everyone needed a new pickaxe at once, a pickaxe could be provided to them without the need for bartering or extange. This does not mean that distribution could be based on how many pickaxes everyone wants because that would be impossible, since one person could say they want twenty pickaxes and if every person did that then there would be no efficient way to calculate how pickaxes should be distributed other than to return to extange.

Problems of Socialism:
First of all, it should be apparent that not everyone will be able to get everything they need right at the bat. For example let's say collective farm A asks the central planner for 20 iron hoes and collective mine A asks for 10 iron pickaxes, but there are only 30 iron ingots, who gets priority since not everyone can get what they want?

So considering this problem, it appears that even if distribution is centralized then the law of value will continue to operate. So then the question is how should this law be overcome?

Organizational outline of a Socialist Society:

At the most basic level there will be the people communes. The People's Communes are responsible for producing raw resources such as wheat, wood, and iron.

At the highest level will be the Capital city. For simplicity's sake, there will be only one capital city. Here actual goods will be produced and here is where the planning will take place.

The People's Commune will not have a single leader, instead when a certain amount of goods are needed, a meeting will be held where the needs of the Commune will be decided. Then a delegate will be elected to go to the capital city to get the required goods. These delegates will also be able to vote to elect and recall central planners

Economics and Politics of the Transitional Phase

A certain percentage of the resources produced by the People's Commune will be given to the capital city. So for example if People's Commune A produces 10 units of wheat within a certain amount of time, and the production quota percent is 20%, then the state will get 2 units of wheat. What the People's Commune keeps will be their responsibility to distribute. Although I can not think of an exact mathematical formula right now, generally the more of a resource a Commune produces the greater the percent seized ought to be, to the eventual point where the entirety of the resource is seized and distributed centrally.

Since most resources at the beginning will be subject to some level of scarcity, some sort of mechanism other than need will be needed to regulate distribution, and as Ernest Mandel argued, the best mechanism is a sort of money. The central planner will be responsible for printing the money from sugar cane and regulating the amount of money in circulation. The People's Commune will be responsible for purchasing goods from the central planner and individuals will be expressly forbidden from buying from the central planner.

A good that can not be distributed according to the need will be sold to the peoples communes. The price of the good shall be easy to calculate. The price should be calculated in a way that the total amount of money in circulation in the Communes could only afford the amount of the good in circulation. So if there are 300 Money units in circulation and 30 iron pickaxes, the price of the pickaxes should be ten money units to prevent shortages.

To regulate the circulation of money, the central planner can make a mandatory purchase of a resource from a Commune for a certain amount of money or a central planner can distribute a certain amount of a resource in extange for seizing a certain amount of money.

A Commune, in addition to being able to purchase goods from the central planner, can also purchase goods from other communes.

The Transition from Value to Need in Distribution.

There are various technologies in minecraft that make the production of resources either more efficient or less labor intensive. For example the efficient mining schemes and automatic farming.

At the very beginning very little will be sent to a central planner because the People's Communes will need to be established for this to happen. However once enough Iron is discovered to make a large scale irrigation system then a quota can be established for food. Once this is set in place food collection will become less burdensome and a quota for wood and stone collection can be established. Once enough iron is discovered to mine most ores, then an efficient mining system can be made at level Y12 and most ores, including most importantly, gold, iron and red stone, can have quotas established for them.

Once the central planner can receive these, the central planner should focus little on producing goods for the needs of the People's Commune but rather on saving up the resources needed to create automatic farming systems, railroads, and other red stone machines designed to make labor more efficient.

The effort at this point should not be on reducing the amount of labor put into production but rather improving the amount of output that results from production, with the goal of increasing output exponentially. As the People's Communes produce more and more resources, greater and greater amounts should be seized from them in quotas until the point that there are no goods distributed through value and distribution takes place entirely upon need. At this point it can be said that at least the lower phase of Communism has been reached.

Now I know that there are plenty of other schools of thought in the left including anarchists, left communists, and others who have another idea on how to establish socialism in Minecraft. So I thought it would be fun to try to create sketches of what a transition to Communism in minecraft might look like for each of the schools of thought and to test them out on a minecraft server. Since I realize that this will take a long time to organize the game won't actually start until July (actual date pending).

Drosophila
1st April 2013, 03:21
This is when you know you have too much time on your hands.

l'Enfermé
1st April 2013, 03:55
I demand a version with the GULAG.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
1st April 2013, 03:57
I demand a version with the GULAG.

Well I'm sure the Hoxhaists will come up with that.

Raúl Duke
3rd April 2013, 07:09
If we start with this I feel eventually a bunch of libertarians will make their own minecraft free-market capitalism to compete. Then both of them will go to war with each other, pacifists be damned.

Flying Purple People Eater
3rd April 2013, 07:10
I think playing a Brazillian druglord is much more fun.

"REAP, DOG! REAP THAT SUGARCANE."

Tjis
3rd April 2013, 12:22
There's a non-communist way of playing minecraft?
In every multiplayer minecraft game I've played, we ended up with an abundance in renewable resources through our common labor, and thus a free access economy. If someone needed a certain resource for a building project that wasn't abundant, we'd all chip in knowing we could count on similar help later on. All without central planning, or any planning for that matter.
Maybe you need to find better friends to play with.

ÑóẊîöʼn
3rd April 2013, 12:54
Given sufficient time, practically any resource (except those that can only be accessed with OP powers or cheats) within Minecraft can be secured by an individual player working on their own. Pooling efforts can get resources acquired faster, but there is nothing normally available that cannot be gathered by an individual given sufficient time.

Thus I'm of the opinion that the real interest lies in organising and executing collaborative efforts to build structures and modify terrain. A single player can create impressive buildings and transform the landscape, but the time required implies a surplus of dedication and spare time that not all players may have.

I occasionally run a Minecraft server (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anyone-up-minecrafti-t178197/index.html), and while there hasn't been a great deal of centralised planning, our efforts have produced the beginnings of a capital, Marxstadt, as well as a railway system linking the capital to at least three nearby villages, one of which contains a portal to the Nether (special thanks to il_Medico for that!). There are also numerous smaller structures within and outside of Marxstadt and the villages, built either collaboratively over the course of one or two sessions or as part of individual efforts. See the link for details as to how to take part!


This is when you know you have too much time on your hands.

Well if they won't give us work, we gotta have something to do while we take bread...

Jimmie Higgins
3rd April 2013, 13:07
Minecraftian-socialism? I think a new tendency has just been born.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
3rd April 2013, 20:12
If we start with this I feel eventually a bunch of libertarians will make their own minecraft free-market capitalism to compete. Then both of them will go to war with each other, pacifists be damned.

Well then we should invite the fellows at r/Murica to our server. That should be fun :)

Raúl Duke
4th April 2013, 02:13
Given sufficient time, practically any resource (except those that can only be accessed with OP powers or cheats) within Minecraft can be secured by an individual player working on their own. Pooling efforts can get resources acquired faster, but there is nothing normally available that cannot be gathered by an individual given sufficient time.

Thus I'm of the opinion that the real interest lies in organising and executing collaborative efforts to build structures and modify terrain. A single player can create impressive buildings and transform the landscape, but the time required implies a surplus of dedication and spare time that not all players may have.

I occasionally run a Minecraft server (http://www.revleft.com/vb/anyone-up-minecrafti-t178197/index.html), and while there hasn't been a great deal of centralised planning, our efforts have produced the beginnings of a capital, Marxstadt, as well as a railway system linking the capital to at least three nearby villages, one of which contains a portal to the Nether (special thanks to il_Medico for that!). There are also numerous smaller structures within and outside of Marxstadt and the villages, built either collaboratively over the course of one or two sessions or as part of individual efforts. See the link for details as to how to take part!



Well if they won't give us work, we gotta have something to do while we take bread...

If this was one of those centralized entities like USSR, all the centralized planning would have gone to identifying the word of the nether as a capitalist hell-hole and to creating enough explosive power to destroy it. The economy would shift towards explosive making. It might be boring, but the final "invasion of the capitalist Nether" would be fun plus afterwords there will be full communism so it pays out in the end.

ÑóẊîöʼn
4th April 2013, 15:16
If this was one of those centralized entities like USSR, all the centralized planning would have gone to identifying the word of the nether as a capitalist hell-hole and to creating enough explosive power to destroy it. The economy would shift towards explosive making. It might be boring, but the final "invasion of the capitalist Nether" would be fun plus afterwords there will be full communism so it pays out in the end.

Isn't the Nether an effectively infinite (in the X and Z directions at least) plane of reality, rather than a finite object?

Even if one could produce limitless TNT, destroying the Nether would take an infinite amount of TNT. It's not a question of "how can I destroy the Nether?" so much as "How much of the Nether can I destroy before I become bored?

Also, what's capitalist about the Nether? Surely if you want to eradicate capitalism in Minecraft, you need to somehow convince the villagers to forget about all this "exchanging stuff for gems" idea, get off their own big-nosed arses and start scarring the landscape in the name of collective progress. Whenever I've gone into the Nether nobody tried to sell me anything, in fact everything but the zombie pigmen are trying to kill you.

Yes, I'm over-thinking this. No, I don't care that I am. Over-thinking things is always superior to under-thinking things. "Herr derr it's just a game!" Oh really? Have people these days got so little wonder in their minds and fantasy in their hearts, that they simply can't indulge in some frivolous and idle speculation? Has that dreary and mean Protestant ethic of "all work and no play" even seeped it's way into our entertainment, of all things?

Raúl Duke
4th April 2013, 23:31
Isn't the Nether an effectively infinite (in the X and Z directions at least) plane of reality, rather than a finite object?

Even if one could produce limitless TNT, destroying the Nether would take an infinite amount of TNT. It's not a question of "how can I destroy the Nether?" so much as "How much of the Nether can I destroy before I become bored?

Also, what's capitalist about the Nether? Surely if you want to eradicate capitalism in Minecraft, you need to somehow convince the villagers to forget about all this "exchanging stuff for gems" idea, get off their own big-nosed arses and start scarring the landscape in the name of collective progress. Whenever I've gone into the Nether nobody tried to sell me anything, in fact everything but the zombie pigmen are trying to kill you.

Yes, I'm over-thinking this. No, I don't care that I am. Over-thinking things is always superior to under-thinking things. "Herr derr it's just a game!" Oh really? Have people these days got so little wonder in their minds and fantasy in their hearts, that they simply can't indulge in some frivolous and idle speculation? Has that dreary and mean Protestant ethic of "all work and no play" even seeped it's way into our entertainment, of all things?

just a hypothetical.

I just indulged in a bit of idle speculation. But to be honest, at some point I would leave a large crater on the Nether if I were playing and we were up for it.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
4th April 2013, 23:34
just a hypothetical.

I just indulged in a bit of idle speculation. But to be honest, at some point I would leave a large crater on the Nether if I were playing and we were up for it.

Perhaps we could invite some capitalists in our game and engage in some PPW antics with guerrilla TNT warfare. It could be expecually fun once we master long range TNT cannons

ÑóẊîöʼn
4th April 2013, 23:41
Perhaps we could invite some capitalists in our game and engage in some PPW antics with guerrilla TNT warfare. It could be expecually fun once we master long range TNT cannons

I've always wanted to build a whole bunch of TNT cannons for fortification purposes, but I've never worked out how to do it. Getting the TNT blocks flying properly seems to be the really hard part.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
4th April 2013, 23:45
I've always wanted to build a whole bunch of TNT cannons for fortification purposes, but I've never worked out how to do it. Getting the TNT blocks flying properly seems to be the really hard part.

Alot of it is the aiming, recently I was wondering if you could make a slightly more usable system with rails. Perhaps I'll experiment tonight with some stuff and tell you guys. But I imagine that if we got really good at making them then we could try to find out how many blocs a TNT will travel in the air, construct TNT cannons on the spot, blow up their stuff from a distance and use a diamond pickaxe to pick it up and run away after we are done barraging them.

Not that I intend for this to be a war game, since I'm not all that fond of minecraft violence, but a little violence here and there makes it alot less boring. Also I imagine that there will be a few who think my idea of Minecraft socialism is revisionist and will try to make up their own plan, so perhaps it could get interesting.

Oh yea and to heck with people who don't want to have fun, isn't our goal the abolition of labor so we can play minecraft all day if we want to?

bcbm
4th April 2013, 23:53
ill stick to trolling counter strike

ÑóẊîöʼn
4th April 2013, 23:54
just a hypothetical.

I just indulged in a bit of idle speculation. But to be honest, at some point I would leave a large crater on the Nether if I were playing and we were up for it.

The mini-rant wasn't really directed at you, it was more directed at the kind of sour-faced dullard who bleats that "it's just a game" whenever someone like me goes off on some flight of fancy. I think those kind of people have a serious lack of imagination, if not that then they have no sense of whimsy whatsoever.

That aside, blowing holes in the landscape can keep me busy for hours. It's especially amusing to lay down thick lines of TNT blocks in order to leave great trails of devastation across the previously-pristine landscape.

I like the beacons one can lay down, but they aren't grimy enough. The ability to build chuffing great chimneys billowing thick grey and black smoke all over the place would go a long way to completing my plans for a Minecraft map transformed into a Stakhanovite cityscape.

Raúl Duke
5th April 2013, 01:56
Perhaps we could invite some capitalists in our game and engage in some PPW antics with guerrilla TNT warfare. It could be expecually fun once we master long range TNT cannons

Now we are talking.

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
5th April 2013, 02:53
Now we are talking.

But before we begin bombarding them, we ought to dig a system of tunnels under their settlement and plant TNT so we can kill them from the ground that they stand on, sorta like what North Korea was trying to do a few years back

Starship Stormtrooper
5th April 2013, 03:47
But before we begin bombarding them, we ought to dig a system of tunnels under their settlement and plant TNT so we can kill them from the ground that they stand on, sorta like what North Korea was trying to do a few years back

Or the Vietnamese at Dien Bien Phu. The TNT cannons would also be helpful here.

Philosophos
5th April 2013, 03:55
There's a non-communist way of playing minecraft?
In every multiplayer minecraft game I've played, we ended up with an abundance in renewable resources through our common labor, and thus a free access economy. If someone needed a certain resource for a building project that wasn't abundant, we'd all chip in knowing we could count on similar help later on. All without central planning, or any planning for that matter.
Maybe you need to find better friends to play with.

OK I started playing a little bit and I almost punched my friend who hosted the server in the face. The guy clames that he is communist (bite me he votes SYRIZA for fucks sake).

So here we go he starts the server and me with 2 other guys start playing along. He says he's the boss and he will do whatever he wants and if we disobey he will delete the save. He was telling us where to go, what to do (not the "gimme a tip bro" thing) he was giving us some of the diamond tools, he was keeping all the good pickaxes (Unbreaking IV etc) and he was giving us the half used Unbreaking pickaxes III... He was getting all the exp from some weird coal-cubes idk how to call them and he wanted more and more and more....

After a while I started my own server and yelled to everyone in the internet cafe: "Come with me and play as equals". Everyone joined (I wonder what would happen if I yelled: "Come to the communist side" or something like this).

Anyway don't be surprised there lots of idiots out there ruining the simple and fun games because they have a small-dick syndrome and want to look powerful :lol:

ÑóẊîöʼn
6th April 2013, 18:17
I don't get why people who are such control freaks even bother inviting other people onto their server.

Part of why I started a server is because I wanted to see what people would build on their own initiative, how they would build things in relation to whatever I would decide to build. That's the kind of creative unpredictability that I love to see taking shape - for example, on my server somebody has built a sort of Viking-style feasting hall-type building, a fairly low single-floor construction made mostly of wood with a peaked roof. Because it was in the capital city, I decided to build a modern-style tower block right next to it, along with pavements and lighting in the surrounding environs of both buildings. There is no such thing as zoning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoning) on my server!

If your friend wants to micro-manage absolutely every detail, why don't they just start a Single Player Creative map?