Donglegate?

[Crixus]

Sorry for the silly sounding thread title but that's what people are calling it. If you don't know, in short, Adria Richards (real name used because it's all over the place already) was at a tech convention and overhead two men making jokes concerning male genitalia and the word "dongle" which is a plug in device for a computer. She overheard them and posted pictures of them online shaming them which ended up with one of the men losing his job. Her critics point out that she, at PYCON (the same event), posted a joke about male genitalia on her public twitter account with about 10,000 followers. In your opinion does her doing so in any way invalidate her being offended by the two men doing the same in a room with much less people exposed to the joke? I would assume about 10 people at most could hear the men. What do or can you say to the (more 'rational') critics of hers when they bring that up? I say 'more rational' meaning to exclude the all out psychopathic racists and misogynists.

I'm aware she also lost her job and also aware psychopaths all over the internet have been sending sexist/racist hate mail even to the tune of death threats which is simply a validation of the need for feminism as we all already know but the issue I'm having on other internet forums is defending the sock in pants joke she made when compared to the dongle genitalia joke. A little help would be appreciated because what I'm experiencing is people are hung up on what they're perceiving to be a sort of hypocrisy which exposes a fundamental flaw of feminism in general. Thanks in advance.

[Positivist]

I don't think that this is particularly important to be honest.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

From what little I know I'd say that her posting these two men's pictures was not acceptable, and doesn't seem like a good response to their immaturity; but the whole consequences there are beyond reasonable, but likewise not surprising a response from these companies that does anything to avoid all controversy (I presume that's why they fired her, I can't say much on it.) From the description of the events I don't think either joke are something to be offended by it, and if she was, she should have taken it up with them rather than post their pictures, or if she had to write about it, skipped the picture of the two whoevers.

But Holy Shit, I came onto some videos on this whole debacle, and fucking shit there was an endless stream of sexism and misogyny; every video, and this whole thing ties into this absurd and rabid crazy trend that seems to have struck the imbecilic youtube atheists lately, which is to whine about feminists this and that non-stop (all thanks to that fucking thunderfr00th arsehole and his inane shit). The whole internet seems to be overflowing with seething sexist rage, MRA nutters and "Nice Guys". It's quite nauseating.

[Anti-Traditional]

In your opinion does her doing so in any way invalidate her being offended by the two men doing the same in a room with much less people exposed to the joke?



She didn't even have grounds to be offended in the first place. No wonder were always hearing about loony lefties :rolleyes:

[Crixus]

She didn't even have grounds to be offended in the first place. No wonder were always hearing about loony lefties :rolleyes:
Well, even some of her 'more rational' critics will say women should not have to be exposed to dick jokes at work which is also the standard feminist position and she took the standard feminist position and ran with it. The thing is, she put dick jokes on a public form at the same event. Does this hypocrisy expose an inherent flaw within feminism as critics are saying? A woman I was talking with on youtube keeps harping on about it exposing the manner in which feminists exaggerate scenarios to the level of absurd spectacle in so damaging many valid goals women have.

Most other 'more rational' critics say if she hadn't put jokes concerning male genitalia on a public forum at the same event people would see her as a 'victim' of sexism, but, seeing that she did, does that not expose a sort of false agenda or false 'victimhood' on the part of women who speak out against such things(?). How could she really have been offended when she just did the same thing is what they're saying. They're saying that she wasn't really offended and took the opportunity to push a political agenda which at the root is full of such scenarios.

It's being jumped on in a major way by critics of feminism and I think it might be important to clear up why she would one minute make a joke about male genitalia then the next moment raise the flag of feminism to publicly shame two men who did the same. People are wondering how often do scenarios like this happen somewhat in the same fashion as the 'boy who cried wolf'. My question is how do we mount a defense of her actions while at the same time fight the 'boy who cried wolf' scenario. Should she be supported or criticized? Without question the insane sexist/racist/psychopathic reaction online deserves condemnation but in doing so should we offer a defense of what took place? I'm finding it hard.

[Raúl Duke]

Where these 2 guys making a dick joke between one another (not to the crowd or the entire convention)?

I really don't get what's so feminist about stopping 2 dudes from telling each other a lame nerdy dick joke (or inversely, what's so sexist between 2 guys sharing a dick joke; I may understand perhaps if they addressed a mixed-gender crowd since that excludes women). Maybe I'm ignorant, I just don't see how this advance the cause of women's equality. :unsure:

[Crixus]

Where these 2 guys making a dick joke between one another (not to the crowd or the entire convention)?

I really don't get what's so feminist about stopping 2 dudes from telling each other a lame nerdy dick joke (or inversely, what's so sexist between 2 guys sharing a dick joke; I may understand perhaps if they addressed a mixed-gender crowd since that excludes women). Maybe I'm ignorant, I just don't see how this advance the cause of women's equality. :unsure:
Between one another. She's been a feminist activist fighting sexism within the tech community for some time. I can't post links to her blog so here's a small sample:

XXysCN62d7k

[Raúl Duke]

She's been a feminist activist fighting sexism within the tech community for some time.I can understand the importance and necessity for that.

But it doesn't really answer my question.
If 2 guys shared a dick joke between one another privately, how would this be sexist exactly? (Although maybe in this case there's more to it that I don't know, I'm just going with the details your provided in the OP) I just kind wanna know the reasoning behind all this.

To answer one of your questions, if it's hypocritical of shaming these people while writing a dick joke on twitter, my answer is that it's tricky. In a perfect world, the answer is yes. According to privilege theory though, I think the answer leans towards no (I think, but maybe not; I'm thinking about how tumblr privilege-theory feminists rationalize misandry and applying it to here but it may not be an equal comparison since one can argue that by Adria also making a dick joke she's also playing a role in perpetuating misogyny).

[Anti-Traditional]

''If I cant make dick jokes I don't want to be part of your revolution''- Emma Goldman

[l'Enfermé]

Wow what a fucking hypocrite.

[Crixus]

''If I cant make dick jokes I don't want to be part of your revolution''- Emma Goldman
She has broad support within the feminist community.

[Anti-Traditional]

She has broad support within the feminist community.

I don't doubt that. However I don't think it's relevant.

[Crixus]

I don't think that this is particularly important to be honest.
How people percieve feminism should be important. Thats the issue I'm concerned with. It's all over the media and has started, online, the same sort of backlash Skepchick started when she was outraged about being invited up to a mans room for coffee in an elevator at an atheist convention. The backlash from that is still with us and the backlash from the Tech convention is going to be the same sort of scenario if not worse. I wouldn't say it's unimportant. Just sayin. Also if the vast majority of feminists support Adria what makes you different for not supporting her and me different for finding it hard to do so? Are we not 'real' supporters of feminism? Do we lack a clear view of what women face everyday? Was the tech convention not a safe place for women because of these men? Do many feminists cry wolf because of an underline political agenda? Do situations like this help or hurt the cause of women's liberation? There's a lot of imporatnt questions to be asked and answered surrounding this issue and others like it. If I'm being a sexist asshole for finding it hard to support her I'd like to know why.

[Anti-Traditional]

How people percieve feminism should be important. Thats the issue I'm concerned with. It's all over the media and has started, online, the same sort of backlash Skepchick started when she was outraged about being invited up to a mans room for coffee in an elevator at an atheist convention. The backlash from that is still with us and the backlash from the Tech conventions is going to be the same sort of scenario. I wouldn't say it's unimportant. Just sayin.

Personally I think that feminists should come out and say ''not in our name''. It's about sexual equality, not sexual puritanicalism. The one thing we should not do is defend her actions, it would be mere apologism.

[Crixus]

Personally I think that feminists should come out and say ''not in our name''. It's about sexual equality, not sexual puritanicalism. The one thing we should not do is defend her actions, it would be mere apologism.
Welll, I'm a man and I'm going to assume you are as well so I havent experienced sexist work related issues from the point of view of a woman but what gets me is most non feminist women don't agree with her actions or reasoning behind her actions. Where she gets the broad support is within the feminist community, almost everywhere. Article after article, blog after blog, video after video claiming she was fighting misogyny and fighting to provide safe environments for women at the work place. Even in her own words she said she did it for the future of women. The real issue here is theory and practice. Should we take a look at the theory at the foundation of her action or is she simply a 'nut job' as so many people are saying? Are there any women in the womens section of this site who are active within the feminist community? I'd much rather speak with you because I already understand the unsupportive position seeing I myself am struggling to support her and actions such as this as well as actions such as the mess at the atheist convention.

[Crixus]

The struggle against dick jokes has been a long and hard one. I am firm in my belief that, in these situations, women are the ones who get shafted. And I mean really firm.

I'm sure Lenin would agree with me:

I see what you did there and I admittedly chuckled a tad but you see, what you just did (especially in a forum concerning women's struggle) would be, by many many people, considered fostering an unsafe environment for women. I'd like to refrain from penis jokes in this thread until at the least we can get some opinions from women who are active within the feminist community on the matter (sorry for assuming most posters in this thread to be male). If they're threatened or offended by such jokes or if such jokes make them feel as if it's an unsafe environment for them. This is the issue I'm struggling with ; I'd rather not have this thread turn into a penis joke thread. Not at least until some sort of consensus can be reached....on this site at least. I'm honestly not sure if what you just did creates an unsafe environment for women. I suppose this is the perfect subforum to find out so in a way thanks for posting.

[slum]

hi, i'm female bodied and active within the feminist community* and this is the first i've heard about this, i guess we've all been too busy trying to end sexual violence, human trafficking, and domestic murder to pay attention to what nerds say at tech conventions.

if we're gonna be on the topic of language, the language men use to talk about women among themselves is of much more concern to me than what they say about their own genitalia. it would be nice if people didn't draw or talk about penises everywhere but even if the tendency for men to do this is a reflection of male domination of public space there are much more important things to be done to make workplaces safe for women.

*don't use my opinion on this one incident to tell all your friends about the opinion of the 'feminist community'. there's a huge diversity of opinion on topics like this. my opinions as a marxist are very different than those of, say, a radical feminist.

p.s. some women have penises, idk if richards is aware.

[bcbm]

no more dick jokes or you will be infracted

[Crixus]

http://manboobz.com/tag/adria-richards/

http://geekfeminism.org/2013/03/22/statement-of-support-for-adria-richards/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/26/adria-richards-gets-rape-threats-for-speaking-out-about-workplace-sexism?commentpage=1

http://sorayachemaly.tumblr.com/post/46260006850/what-happened-to-adria-richards-happens-every-day

http://deadwildroses.wordpress.com/2013/03/26/adria-richards-how-many-more-examples/ (http://manboobz.com/tag/adria-richards/)

http://www.thegrindstone.com/2013/03/25/office-politics/adria-richards-tweets-pycon-sexism/

http://www.slate.com/blogs/future_tense/2013/03/25/adria_richards_her_firing_online_harassment_show_h ow_sexual_harassment_endures.html

http://jezebel.com/5991792/woman-in-tech-tweets-about-sexist-dudes-in-tech-dude-get-fired-internet-meltdown-ensues?tag=adria-richards

Many more feminist sites, blogs, papers and writers weigh in on the subject. I'm responding to slum's post (in part) EDIT- it sees all my links morphed into one. Sorry about that but you get the point, it's being discussed by a lot of feminists online and is being portrayed as an important action to fight sexual harassment and victimization in the work place in order to create safe environments for women.


i guess we've all been too busy trying to end sexual violence, human trafficking, and domestic murder to pay attention to what nerds say at tech conventions.Here's her blog:

http://butyoureagirl.com/14015/forking-and-dongle-jokes-dont-belong-at-tech-conferences/

[Rugged Collectivist]

How does talking about penises create an unsafe work environment for women? That isn't a rhetorical question I'm genuinely curious.

[bcbm]

How does talking about penises create an unsafe work environment for women? That isn't a rhetorical question I'm genuinely curious.

i thought of the the articles crixus posted had a good explanation


Now. A few things. Yes, in the grand scheme of the entire earth, a few offhand jokes about "big dongles" are almost completely innocuous. In fact, I made pretty much exactly the same joke one million times, whenever my nerdy former roommate said he was looking for his "dongle" or he needed to go "dongle shopping." However, CONTEXT MATTERS. And the issue that a lot of (white) men seem to have trouble grasping is that not everyone gets to move through the world wrapped in the comfy presumption that every space is their space. Many people almost never get to feel like that, outside of their own homes, because most spaces aren't inclusive of all groups

I can only speculate, but based on my experiences in male-dominated fields (film criticism, comedy), I imagine that the relatively small number of women working in tech are on high alert all the time. I imagine that constant dick jokes, with their tacit imagery of a woman's body on the receiving end of said dick, might start to wear on a woman who already feels subtly unwelcome in a male-dominated space. I imagine that that wearying onslaught might be particularly frustrating when the woman is simply trying to do her job without being reminded, by the hundreds of strange men surrounding her, of her utility as a sexual object. I imagine that attempting to speak quietly with each individual man and instruct them in the particulars of rape culture and the subtle hostilities of gendered interaction might eventually begin to seem like a lost cause (and also, potentially, frightening). I imagine a woman might eventually just fucking tweet about it.

Regardless of what you think of the joke itself, it is sexist to contribute (willfully or cluelessly! Ignorance is not an excuse!) to a hostile work environment for women. Full stop. If you didn't realize you were doing it, that means you haven't bothered to think critically about women's comfort and needs. It's fucking 2013. It is not women's responsibility alone to correct gender imbalances. We need men to help. Richards shouldn't have had to reach out to PyCon administrators to get the disruption sorted out—men should learn to police their own goddamn behavior and the behavior of their neighbors. It's not enough to be neutral. It's not enough to be nice. Forward-thinking men who work in fields traditionally hostile to women have a responsibility to be actively pro-woman in those spaces

[Raúl Duke]

Reading the comments on her blog post about it...I find it kinda hard to particularly sympathize with Adria in this instance (although I don't give a shit really about a bunch of bro-dudes getting fired). But this depends on the kind of angle she's going at here, which isn't yet clear. Sure, such jokes are inappropriate, unprofessional. So from the standpoint of professionalism, a case can be made per se. But if 2 people are sharing some stupid dongle and forking joke privately amongst each other that's their problem. Of course, there's the issue of how they went about with the joke and so on that could tilt things either way.

I just feel that in these times where "tumblr privileged theory" is becoming quite popular a lot of it focuses on inane things or symptoms of the problem rather than real, concrete issues or the root of the problem.

[Per Levy]

donglegate is so dumb. a nerdy dick joke, seriously? that is a problem? i know women who are unemployed, homeless and have tazers or other things to protect them from assault and this is a fucking thing? and also this a thing the "feminist community" cares about? then id say this "feminist community" is nothing but bourgeois feminism where poor women arnt importent.

[Crixus]

How does talking about penises create an unsafe work environment for women? That isn't a rhetorical question I'm genuinely curious.
From her blog bold is her emphasis not mine:



I was going to let it go. It had been a long week. A long month. I’d been on the road since mid February attending and speaking at conferences. PyCon was my 5th and final conference before heading home.
I know it’s important to pick my battles.
I know I don’t have to be a hero in every situation.
Sometimes I just want to go to a conference and be a geek.
But…
like Popeye, I couldn’t “stands it no more” because of what happened –
Jesse Noller was up on stage thanking the sponsors. The guys behind me (one off to the right) said, “You can thank me, you can thank me”. That told me they were a sponsoring company of Pycon and from the photos I took, his badge had an add-on that said, “Sponsor”.
My company was a Gold sponsor as well.
They started talking about “big” dongles. I could feel my face getting flustered.
Was this really happening?
How many times do I have to deal with this?
Can they not hear what Jesse is saying?

The stuff about the dongles wasn’t even logical and as a self professed nerd, that bothered me. Dongles are intended to be small and unobtrusive. They’re intended for network connectivity and to service as physical licence keys for software. I’d consulted in the past with an automotive shop that needed data recovery and technical support. I know what PCMCIA dongles look like.
I was telling myself if they made one more sexual joke, I’d say something.
The it happened….The trigger.
Jesse was on the main stage with thousands of people sitting in the audience. He was talking about helping the next generation learn to program and how happy PyCon was with the Young Coders workshop (https://us.pycon.org/2013/events/letslearnpython/) (which I volunteered at). He was mentioning that the PyLadies auction (https://us.pycon.org/2013/sponsors/charityauction/) had raised $10,000 in a single night and the funds would be used the funds for their initiatives.
I saw a photo on main stage of a little girl who had been in the Young Coders workshop.
I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so.From another perspective:
http://jezebel.com/5991792/woman-in-tech-tweets-about-sexist-dudes-in-tech-dude-get-fired-internet-meltdown-ensues?tag=Adria-richards




I can only speculate, but based on my experiences in male-dominated fields (film criticism, comedy), I imagine that the relatively small number of women working in tech are on high alert all the time. I imagine that constant dick jokes, with their tacit imagery of a woman's body on the receiving end of said dick, might start to wear on a woman who already feels subtly unwelcome in a male-dominated space. I imagine that that wearying onslaught might be particularly frustrating when the woman is simply trying to do her job without being reminded, by the hundreds of strange men surrounding her, of her utility as a sexual object. I imagine that attempting to speak quietly with each individual man and instruct them in the particulars of rape culture and the subtle hostilities of gendered interaction might eventually begin to seem like a lost cause (and also, potentially, frightening). I imagine a woman might eventually just fucking tweet about it.
Regardless of what you think of the joke itself, it is sexist to contribute (willfully or cluelessly! Ignorance is not an excuse!) to a hostile work environment for women. Full stop. If you didn't realize you were doing it, that means you haven't bothered to think critically about women's comfort and needs. It's fucking 2013. It is not women's responsibility alone to correct gender imbalances. We need men to help. Richards shouldn't have had to reach out to PyCon administrators to get the disruption sorted out—men should learn to police their own goddamn behavior and the behavior of their neighbors. It's not enough to be neutral. It's not enough to be nice. Forward-thinking men who work in fields traditionally hostile to women have a responsibility to be actively pro-woman in those spaces.
Richards didn't call for anyone to be fired, she wasn't hostile or irrational, she wasn't outraged over one shitty dongle joke—she was expressing an accumulated frustration at the persistent difficulty of carving out space for women in the tech community. Men, if you don't get that, it's because you don't have to get it. You are not qualified to be dismissive of a lifetime of microaggressions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Microaggression) until you have personally experienced a lifetime of microaggressions. So if you don't get it, be thankful. Now pick some of this shit up—it's heavy.

Here's the genitalia joke she tweeted at the same conference:

https://twitter.com/adriarichards/status/312265091791847425

[#FF0000]

Dudes making dick jokes loudly and in a professional place is pretty obnoxious. I doubt her intention was to get them fired or anything, so I don't think she did anything wrong, really? Maybe posting a picture of them like wasn't the best idea, and I don't think anyone needed to lose their jobs over this, but I can't say I really care one way or the other.

I think the response to the entire thing kind of, uh, illustrates a much bigger problem and, hey, sort of explains why a woman would be so irritated by dick jokes in a professional meetup thing.

EDIT: Also a personal twitter account =/= a public place during a professional event. So I don't think her tweet is relevant in the least.


donglegate is so dumb. a nerdy dick joke, seriously? that is a problem? i know women who are unemployed, homeless and have tazers or other things to protect them from assault and this is a fucking thing? and also this a thing the "feminist community" cares about? then id say this "feminist community" is nothing but bourgeois feminism where poor women arnt importent.


Women work in the tech industry and deal with sexual harrassment there as well. Obvs dick jokes aren't the worst thing ever but I think it's hella reasonable to be annoyed by people you just met making sexual jokes like that at a professional event.

Of course it might've been better if she just said "yo cut it out", but I don't think she intended to get anyone fired. Plus I can sort of understand that reaction given the state of the tech industry today with it being a huge boys club (a far cry from what it was decades ago, from what I understand).

I was sorta hesitant to come to a conclusion on the thing partly because I knew nothing about it and partly because I didn't care, but reading her account of it makes me really understand what she's coming from.

[#FF0000]

peoples reactions to this make me want to be dead btw

[Rugged Collectivist]

I still don't understand why this is harassment, but I think it's important to point out that I don't have much experience in environments where professionalism and formality are important so maybe I just don't get the rules. I could see maybe if some guy told her a joke about his dongle, but two guys going "lol dongles" in the row behind her doesn't seem to be a big deal.

[slum]

. Sorry about that but you get the point, it's being discussed by a lot of feminists online and is being portrayed as an important action to fight sexual harassment and victimization in the work place in order to create safe environments for women.

online feminism does not equal all feminism (thank god). jezebel in particular is pretty terrible. the nature of the medium i guess, online feminism and a lot of the tumblr stuff is heavily weighted towards white bourgeois feminism, power feminism, etc.

i don't see this as an important action to fight sexual harassment in the work place, but if other feminists want to die on this hill, it's not my place to say otherwise. it's my understanding that the tech field is an 'old boy's club' and if women in that industry think that dick jokes are part of a larger culture that excludes women and invites more severe, ongoing sexual harassment, degradation, and intimidation, then good luck to them in dismantling that entire state of affairs. i'm not gonna be like "i don't care about your work culture because you are my class enemy" or anything.

the problem with these discussions that focus entirely around language or abstract questions like 'are dick jokes inherently sexist' is that they often fall short of real agitation for change and turn into discussions about personalities- "is she a hypocrite?" and how ridiculous men think feminism is. i don't find that particularly helpful. i think feminists would be much better off putting our efforts towards other problems, like the issues of undocumented women working in U.S. agriculture whose bosses can rape them with total impunity.

but some people disagree on that. modern feminism is really really diverse in approach and goals, i cannot say it enough. it's really almost stupid to call it a 'movement' at this point.

[Crixus]

i thought of the the articles crixus posted had a good explanation
Yes but are the ten thousand people on her twitter account to feel unsafe? I remember in the atheist convention case they talked about the need for women to walk in pairs to stay safe after the elevator coffee incident and sorta, in my opinion, exaggerated and even made up situations of sexual harassment. Saying that it's not ok to grab women without consent, that women need to feel safe etc when there was no case of contact or anything said other than her being invited to his room for coffee. It's almost as if...I just don't know. My hands go in the air sometimes. Both hands, in the air...shoulders shrug.


What gets me is her, at the same conference, tweeting jokes about the size of a mans genitalia then turning around to fight for womans liberation when the two men did the exact same thing "I have big dongles". She was making jokes about stuffing socks down pants to make airport security think they guy had a huge penis. At the very same convention. This is what most every feminist critique of the situation ignores. This is the problem I have. I think it does, in a way, set up a 'boy who cried wolf' scenario as in, she pointdr her finger "sexism, sexism!" then turns around and does the exact same thing. The question is, is it more than just simple hypocrisy? Points that people have brought up to me and what I'm struggling with is do a lot of women in the feminist community blow things out of proportion based in scenarios that don't really offend them in the way they claim. Are some women just waiting for the right moment to advance the cause which leads to actions which cause severe backlash. Do situations like this and the atheist convention help or hurt the cause of women's liberation? Was she truly offended, did it truly make her feel unsafe and if the answer is no then does that mean her indignation was purely a political tactic? How far does that rabbit hole go is what people are asking.

When will people stop believing the boy who cries wolf or is sexism out of control in the tech community? In the atheist community? Everywhere? Should people be vilified for making jokes about dongles and if so why is she not vilified for doing the same thing? I agree with previous posters that there are much more important issues that women face besides dongle jokes but this is the face feminism is taking on in the public's eye.

[#FF0000]

online feminism and a lot of the tumblr stuff is heavily weighted towards white bourgeois feminism, power feminism, etc.

Naaaaaaah "tumblr feminism" is like some mutated radfem fraken-baby imo.


Yes but are the ten thousand people on her twitter account to feel unsafe?

It's a personal twitter account on the internet (public though it is, in its own way). This was a professional, public area in meatspace. I think that context makes a difference.

[slum]

Naaaaaaah "tumblr feminism" is like some mutated radfem fraken-baby imo.

i tend to lump radfem stuff in w/ bourgeois feminism because they are so horrible to trans folks and sex workers and ignore class entirely, but i'm just a big meanie all around, so.




It's a personal twitter account on the internet (public though it is, in its own way). This was a professional, public area in meatspace. I think that context makes a difference.

ita with this, if people are giving her a hard time about it that's not good. i don't see any issue with what she posted but i just wanna make sure people know this isn't exactly front page news for all feminists everywhere right now.


ETA:
i will say tho that people who think this situation is somehow "proof" that feminists run around waiting to jump on men and call them 'sexist' (because being called sexist is such a horrible and demeaning experience, just as bad as living with sexism every day of your life!) are dumb and spend too much time perfecting their straw feminist army. feminists are not oppressing you, even if one of us happens to be unfair to you. it's not the same thing.

[Crixus]

i thought of the the articles crixus posted had a good explanation
In the blog you quoted she mentioned the dongle joke and rape culture in the same context. In your eyes are the two entwined and if so explain. Do you think the two men were perpetuating rape culture because that's certainly implied in the article. That she would be weary of explaining rape culture to the men so she just tweeted about it. So a man with a wife and three kids was publicly shamed and then lost his job as a result for perpetuating rape culture? Sexual harassment? What exactly does the dongle joke fall under? I'm a welding inspector and there's rather few women on my various job sites at refineries. If they made a pipe called a "schlong pipe" or a fitting called a "vag shaft" and I pointed to the sexual nature of the names in a funny way and a woman just happened to hear me should I be publicly shamed as being sexist, creating unsafe work place conditions for women and or perpetuating rape culture? I would understand if I looked at a female co- worker and said something about my dick being big but speaking of context the name of the device is so fucking silly it just begs for people to joke about the name. Which the two men were trying to do between themselves and she overheard. Just as she was tweeting dick jokes at the same convention.

[bcbm]

In the blog you quoted she mentioned the dongle joke and rape culture in the same context. In your eyes are the two entwined and if so explain. Do you think the two men were perpetuating rape culture because that's certainly implied in the article. That she would be weary of explaining rape culture to the men so she just tweeted about it.

i think there is a probably a connection between professional spaces becoming 'dudes spaces' where they can joke about dicks or whatever and rape culture


So a man with a wife and three kids was publicly shamed and then lost his job as a result for perpetuating rape culture? Sexual harassment? What exactly does the dongle joke fall under?

as i understand it she tweeted it and asked for the convention staff to talk the guys cuz they were violating the rules (disturbing other people during the talk i am guessing) and then other people threw a shit storm about it. i don't think the guy deserved to lose his job

[Crixus]

i think there is a probably a connection between professional spaces becoming 'dudes spaces' where they can joke about dicks or whatever and rape culture



as i understand it she tweeted it and asked for the convention staff to talk the guys cuz they were violating the rules (disturbing other people during the talk i am guessing) and then other people threw a shit storm about it. i don't think the guy deserved to lose his job
She took pictures of the guys after security talked to them and posted their pictures online on a public forum with a description of how sexist they were and how uncomfortable they made her feel and that she had to publicly shame them for the future of all women. He was fired because thats what a public accusation of that magnitude causes. Did she really feel uncomfortable if at the same convention she was also making dick jokes? I don't know, I think I might be done with this conversation. Maybe in a way I'm being sexist for not wanting to support her in that specific situation. I will continue to denounce the people who have written sick responses to the situation though. I mean, I'm honestly laughing at the thread title right now. It all seems so absurd!

[#FF0000]

as i understand it she tweeted it and asked for the convention staff to talk the guys cuz they were violating the rules (disturbing other people during the talk i am guessing) and then other people threw a shit storm about it. i don't think the guy deserved to lose his job

Pretty much this. I don't think she intended at all for them to lose their jobs.

[#FF0000]

She took pictures of the guys after security talked to them and posted their pictures online on a public forum with a description of how sexist they were and how uncomfortable they made her feel and that she had to publicly shame them for the future of all women.

She did not say all that. Screencap of the tweet is here (http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2013/3/20/pycon1.jpg)


He was fired because thats what a public accusation of that magnitude causes.Surprise surprise, sexual jokes at a professional event are looked down upon. I don't think they deserved to lose their jobs over this, but I think it's kinda silly to blame her for their firing. Like I said, I don't think anyone can say that was her intent. EDIT: Folks should probably be mad at the company that did the firing, and not her.


Did she really feel uncomfortable if at the same convention she was also making dick jokes?I make hella off-color jokes all the time around my friends (and on the internet). That didn't stop me from being creeped to the moon by the shit my managers at the fast food place I worked at would say around/about me.

[Crixus]

She did not say all that. Screencap of the tweet is here (http://cdn0.dailydot.com/uploaded/images/original/2013/3/20/pycon1.jpg)



Sorry, you're right, she went into more detail on a different online post that all the same people on her twitter can access. You bring up work in a fast food restaurant. If they had a burger named wankburger would you be offended by the obvious onslaught of cock jokes that would follow? To me it's immaturity not sexism. Did you ever laugh in grade school when Lake Titticaca came up? I'd denounce the guys if they were sitting there telling jokes like Andrew Dice Clay about the '*****' they 'fucked' lastnight or how women want their big dick or vulgar obviously sexist tripe or directing dick jokes to her but both the combination of the silly name of the device (dongle) and the fact she herself was tweeting dick jokes just, to me, makes the whole thing rather petty. Perhaps on this issue, as I said, I may just have to admit to being sexist. Oh well :(

I'll try to remain open to being won over to the "dongle joke is sexism/sexual harassment/perpetuating rape culture" side of the argument but I'm not there yet. Not in her case. I do however understand how overtly sexualized conversation in the work place can and does make women feel uncomfortable.

[slum]

To me it's immaturity not sexism.

sexism doesn't have to be intentional or clearly thought out. it makes perfect sense that in a sexist culture our humor, childish or 'high brow', would contain sexist elements. i don't think that's what happening here, but i'd suggest you want to avoid this argument.

i think as bcbm mentioned the issue is not really the joke, but what the joke implies about a broader cultural problem- a culture where women in the workplace and in public space are expected to deal with male genitals or male talk about sex whether they consent to it or not. for a lot of women this can make them uncomfortable because it evokes a culture where men's sexuality is aggressively directed onto them on the street, at home, etc.

whether a joke made between two men and not directed at a woman is really contributing to this culture i have my doubts. i don't think standing up to dick jokes is the most effective way to solve a broad cultural problem. but that said, if someone is doing something that makes someone else uncomfortable, it's completely reasonable to ask (or ask the people in charge to ask) that they stop.

[#FF0000]

Sorry, you're right, she went into more detail on a different online post that all the same people on her twitter can access. You bring up work in a fast food restaurant. If they had a burger named wankburger would you be offended by the obvious onslaught of cock jokes that would follow?

I mean, I really don't need the hypotheticals because I sorta experienced an almost totally analogous situation at work (as opposed to a professional conference or whatever). It's not as if all the jokes and comments were overt and graphic -- but we knew what they meant and it still made for a very uncomfortable working environment. That's not what someone should have to deal with in a workplace, meeting, conference, whatever. Call it whatever you want, it's not appropriate, and there's nothing wrong with speaking up about it.

I think it's important to remember what this is -- a professional conference. It's a part of a job. People ought not have to deal with comments/jokes/whatever at work or at a place they have to be for work.

EDIT: It isn't even about rape culture or sexism even. Of course there's the point about making the place an awkward environment for women with dudes bringing in locker-room talk, but uh, other men can certainly be made uncomfortable by comments like this too.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Sexually charged jokes at work, and a professional conference is work, make the work environment unconfortable for women. And they will continue to do so as long as patriarchy exists and women are not equal to men. And jokes about "big dicks", symbols of the degradation of women and of male sexual power (power whose manifestations can include rape, relationships that are oppressive to women and so on), are particularly offensive, especially in the context of a field dominated by men with a pronounced tendency toward misogyny (note the popularity of angry internet right-"libertarianism" and of internet bourgeois angry atheism, both extremely sexist movements, in "the IT crowd"). Richards's previous dick jokes are simply not relevant here, because she is not a man; she does not participate in the patriarchal oppression of women and her words do not constitute a tacit threat to women.

And yes, dick jokes are a fairly minor part of the patriarchal system (if only because the other parts are unfortunately much, much worse), but does this mean that someone should be condemned for taking a stand against them? The only unfortunate part is that Richards lost her job, and that the usual anti-feminist suspects have come crawling out of their holes with heart-rending stories about "misandry" and evil feminism. But then again, the latter is fairly fucking inevitable...

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

But if 2 people are sharing some stupid dongle and forking joke privately amongst each other that's their problem.
What was "private" about where this happened? And even if it had been "private," misogyny isn't a joke.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

She didn't even have grounds to be offended in the first place. No wonder were always hearing about loony lefties :rolleyes:
Guys making dick jokes in her presence, and she didn't have grounds to be offended?

[Anti-Traditional]

Guys making dick jokes in her presence, and she didn't have grounds to be offended?

To be honest I can't see why she should be. Yes it's immature and obscene and probably very irritating, but I don't think it is offensive.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

To be honest I can't see why she should be. Yes it's immature and obscene and probably very irritating, but I don't think it is offensive.

Would you say the same of a black person that works in a predominantly white environment, and is offended by constant jokes about being white from their coworkers?

[Anti-Traditional]

Would you say the same of a black person that works in a predominantly white environment, and is offended by constant jokes about being white from their coworkers?

Joking about skin colour is inherently connected with racism. However these dick jokes arose from a specific situation, i.e the dongle, it wouldn't be unrealistic to imagine that many people could imagine the word ''dongle'' being euphimistic.

However let's continue with your logic. Let's say that the men were making jokes about whiteness. It would be fair to say that they are playing their part in maintaining racial stereotypes. However if a black person was to make jokes about whiteness, whilst condemning the original pair, is it not fair to say that they have been hypocritical?

if we are to say that the dick jokes had sexist undertones, then we must also say that Richards' dick jokes were also sexist. For what it is worth I don't think either were sexist.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Joking about skin colour is inherently connected with racism. However these dick jokes arose from a specific situation, i.e the dongle, it wouldn't be unrealistic to imagine that many people could imagine the word ''dongle'' being euphimistic.

Jokes about big dicks, especially when made around female colleagues, are also connected to sexism.


However let's continue with your logic. Let's say that the men were making jokes about whiteness. It would be fair to say that they are playing their part in maintaining racial stereotypes. However if a black person was to make jokes about whiteness, whilst condemning the original pair, is it not fair to say that they have been hypocritical?

No. The black person is not a part of the racist system of oppression; just like Richardson is not a part of the patriarchal system of oppression.

[Anti-Traditional]

No. The black person is not a part of the racist system of oppression; just like Richardson is not a part of the patriarchal system of oppression.

You don't think black people making jokes about white people is racist? Racism isn't just systematic, it exists on an individual basis too.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

You don't think black people making jokes about white people is racist? Racism isn't just systematic, it exists on an individual basis too.

In most cases it is not, and even in cases in which it is, this racism of the oppressed is a far lesser problem than the grotesque system of white privilege.

[Anti-Traditional]

In most cases it is not, and even in cases in which it is, this racism of the oppressed is a far lesser problem than the grotesque system of white privilege.

A lesser problem, yes. However it is still a problem and still racist.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

A lesser problem, yes. However it is still a problem and still racist.

It is problematic chiefly because it leads to incorrect tactics in the course of anti-discrimination struggles. Assuming that the racism is real; some people cry about "anti-White racism" or "misandry" or whatnot every time a member of an oppressed group mentions something about the oppressing group that is less than absolutely adulatory.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

To be honest I can't see why she should be. Yes it's immature and obscene and probably very irritating, but I don't think it is offensive.
Good for you. She did think it was offensive, and I agree with her.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

-Some guys telling a private joke to each other.
-She eavesdrops.
-She decides to throw a hissy fit.
-Uploads their pictures on the internet, without their consent, to pretty much stir up a lynching against them.
-One of the guys, with a family, gets fired, in this horrible economy.
-She then gets fired, quite rightly, for trying to inspire mob justice.

She needs to:
1. Stop listening in to other peoples private conversations.
2. Grow thicker skin.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Poor misogynist baby, fired in this economy. It isn't as if he's much more likely to be hired than a woman with the same qualifications. And women need to stop *****ing about sexism and grow a thicker skin, am I right?

(I am not right.)

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

Poor sexist babies, fired in this economy. It isn't as if they're much more likely to be hired than a woman with the same qualifications. And women need to stop *****ing about sexism and grow a thicker skin, am I right?

(I am not right.)

Not really, both sexes are fucked currently. Yes, and certain women should grow thicker skin to harmless nerd jokes, and stop eavesdropping.

Hey, perhaps focus on very genuine and real instances of sexism and rape culture today, such as in rap culture, the police, and the armed forces. Or even more pressing, help fight for women's rights in Iran and Afghanistan through charity work.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

-Some guys telling a private joke to each other.
-She eavesdrops.
Actually, it was a joke told in a public space, and she was sitting in front of them at the time.

Also, justifying misogyny on the basis of "privacy" is fucked up right-wing nonsense that so-called leftists should be embarrassed to parrot.


-She then gets fired, quite rightly, for trying to inspire mob justice.
What about the mob revenge of people issuing death and rape threats?


She needs to:
1. Stop listening in to other peoples private conversations.
2. Grow thicker skin.
You need to STFU.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Not really, both sexes are fucked currently. Yes, and certain women should grow thicker skin to harmless nerd jokes, and stop eavesdropping.
Sorry, as a woman who worked in the tech industry for a decade, there can be a very decided "boys will be boys" attitude in that industry, and it persists because there's an unwillingness to call people out.

And yet again someone on RevLeft thinks women should just "grow thicker skin." No, some men should fucking grow up and quit being misogynists.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

Actually, it was a joke told in a public space, and she was sitting in front of them at the time.

Also, justifying misogyny on the basis of "privacy" is fucked up right-wing nonsense that so-called leftists should be embarrassed to parrot.


No, it was a private joke by two men, they weren't screaming it out.

And I'm afraid this is not mysogyny, two men joking about the size of their memory sticks is just harmless, albeit immature fun. If they had made a rape joke, where Richards was the explicit subject, or any other girl at the conference, it would be a misogynyst joke.


What about the mob revenge of people issuing death and rape threats?

And? That's the internet reacting as it always does, it has nothing to do with the original encounter.


You need to STFU.

NO U!

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

No, some men should fucking grow up and quit being misogynists.

How on earth is telling jokes about your memory stick demonstrating a hatred of women?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

No, it was a private joke by two men, they weren't screaming it out.
It was said in a public place with people around.


And I'm afraid this is not mysogyny, two men joking about the size of their memory sticks is just harmless, albeit immature fun. If they had made a rape joke, where Richards was the explicit subject, or any other girl at the conference, it would be a misogynyst joke.
No, misogyny is a lot more than just rape jokes, I'm afraid. It's an entire culture that justifies it.


And? That's the internet reacting as it always does, it has nothing to do with the original encounter.
Woman calls out two men, and she gets threatened with rape and murder, and you write it off as "oh, that's just the Internet," as if that excuses it? What the fuck is the matter with you?

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

It was said in a public place with people around.

So if I am have a private conversation with my girlfriend or brother, people have the right to listen into our private conversations, and if they don't like what we say, take photos of us without our consent and stick them on the internet?


No, misogyny is a lot more than just rape jokes, I'm afraid. It's an entire culture that justifies it.

Yet again I'll ask you, how does joking about the size of your memory stick demonstrate a hatred of women. Don't just throw out these buzzwords.


Woman calls out two men, and she gets threatened with rape and murder, and you write it off as "oh, that's just the Internet," as if that excuses it?

The internet always reacts like this, and the internet is beyond these two men's control. If they were leaving rapey comment I would condemn them, but from what we can see it's just some basement dwellers trolling.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

So if I am have a private conversation with my girlfriend or brother, people have the right to listen into our private conversations
If you sit next to me or behind me and start talking, is the expectation that I and everyone else in listening distance put our fingers in our ears?


and if they don't like what we say, take photos of us without our consent and stick them on the internet?
I'm not sure that was the best way to handle it, but that's separate from the other issues.


Yet again I'll ask you, how does joking about the size of your memory stick demonstrate a hatred of women. Don't just throw out these buzzwords.
Creating an environment that's hostile to women is a manifestation of a misogynistic culture.

Buzzwords? Like your constant use of "private" and "privacy"?


The internet always reacts like this, and the internet is beyond these two men's control. If they were leaving rapey comment I would condemn them, but from what we can see it's just some basement dwellers trolling.
Did I say it was in those two men's control? No. However, it is another manifestation of the misogynistic culture at large.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

If you sit next to me or behind me and start talking, is the expectation that I and everyone else in listening distance put our fingers in our ears?

No, but I'd be under the impression that you wouldn't be eavsdropping. I don't know about you, but whenever I'm in the pub or conferences, I don't go out of my way to listen into other people's conversations.


Creating an environment that's hostile to women is a manifestation of a misogynistic culture.

Yet again I will ask you, how is making a joke about your memory stick misogynyst, and how is it hostile (she could have easily jumped in and said "yeah, but my dongle's bigger than both of yours" if she wanted to, unlike if it was a genuine misogynist joke, such as one about raping someone).


Buzzwords? Like your constant use of "private" and "privacy"?

Nope. These bourgoisie-tumblr words are vague, never described, and seem to be very ad hoc. Unlike 'privacy' which is a univocal word, and can be stated quite clearly.


No. However, it is another manifestation of the misogynistic culture at large.

But these are two seperate instances:

1. The non-sexist joke
2. The internet's reaction to Richards action, which could rightly be seen as misogynyst.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

No, but I'd be under the impression that you wouldn't be eavsdropping. I don't know about you, but whenever I'm in the pub or conferences, I don't go out of my way to listen into other people's conversations.
How do you know she was going out of her way to do so? You seem to make negative assumptions about her, but neutral or positive ones about the men involved. Hmm.


Yet again I will ask you, how is making a joke about your memory stick misogynyst, and how is it hostile
It's an obvious dick joke. As a woman, I would feel uncomfortable in a supposedly professional environment where men felt that was acceptable, and their comfort in making such jokes is a reflection of a sexist culture.


Nope. These bourgoisie-tumblr words
:rolleyes:


Unlike 'privacy' which is a univocal word, and can be stated quite clearly.
It's also ideological, and your usage sounds like liberalism.


1. The non-sexist joke
Says you.

[soso17]

A couple things come to mind…

This woman has every right to be offended by these men and their "joke". Male privilege is very real, especially in male-dominated industries.

I also think that the woman should be taken to task on the joke she posted on twitter. That joke supports sexism too. As a gay man, I do not go around telling gay jokes, and I find such behaviour unacceptable in other gay people. Hate speech always oppresses, even if the perpetrator is part of the oppressed group.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

How do you know she was going out of her way to do so? You seem to make negative assumptions about her, but neutral or positive ones about the men involved. Hmm.

Because it's a private conversation, I don't know about you, but when I'm in conferences I don't tend to focus on other's conversations.


It's an obvious dick joke. As a woman, I would feel uncomfortable in a supposedly professional environment where men felt that was acceptable, and their comfort in making such jokes is a reflection of a sexist culture.

How is making a dick joke sexist, it's not putting women down in anyway shape or form, unless penis envy?


It's also ideological, and your usage sounds like liberalism.

O wow! You guys treat liberalism as something worse than fascism.


Says you.

Oh, silly me, I forget, tumblr feminist are the arbitrators of what counts as sexism.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

How is making a dick joke sexist, it's not putting women down in anyway shape or form, unless penis envy?
As a woman, I would feel uncomfortable in a supposedly professional environment where men felt that was acceptable, and their comfort in making such jokes is a reflection of a sexist culture.

I'm repeating myself, but sadly I'm used to the fact that some leftist men just don't get it.


O wow! You guys treat liberalism as something worse than fascism.
Wait, how did fascism become a part of this discussion?


Oh, silly me, I forget, tumblr feminist are the arbitrators of what counts as sexism.
Except I'm not a tumblr feminist. But if that makes it easier for you to ignore what a woman's saying about sexism, I feel sorry for you.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

a reflection of a sexist culture.

I still don't get it, the magical powers of the uttering of the word "penis". Am I supposed to be reading this in a Lacanian sense?


I'm used to the fact that some leftist men just don't get it.

Or you could be reading to much into this?


Wait, how did fascism become a part of this discussion?

'Liberal' seems to get thrown about on this site a bit too much, and as the worst possible thing someone is guilty of. A bit like 'Bukharinism', or 'Titoism'.


Except I'm not a tumblr feminist. But if that makes it easier for you to ignore what a woman's saying about sexism, I feel sorry for you.

"What ever a woman states is sexsim, is sexism, who cares if she took unauthorised photos and stuck them on the internet, you have no right to question this. What are you, a liberal or something."

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Because it's a private conversation, I don't know about you, but when I'm in conferences I don't tend to focus on other's conversations.

Again, the private nature of the conversation does not excuse its contents, particularly since the conversation took place near a female coworker, that they should have known could overhear them.


How is making a dick joke sexist, it's not putting women down in anyway shape or form, unless penis envy?

"Penis envy"? Lovely. Overt and aggressive male sexuality, particularly the macho form of male sexuality that is exemplified in boasting and joking about "big dicks", is something that many, many women perceive as a threat


O wow! You guys treat liberalism as something worse than fascism.

Say what you like about fascists, at least they are honest. And no one on the left takes their boneheaded opinions seriously. Whereas liberals pretend to be progressive, while attacking every woman that dares to challenge patriarchy.


Oh, silly me, I forget, tumblr feminist are the arbitrators of what counts as sexism.

Tumblr feminists are at least the socially radical wing of bourgeois ideology; confused liberals and social democrats are in the marsh, the centre.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

excuse its contents

I see nothing wrong with it contents.


Overt and aggressive male sexuality, particularly the macho form of male sexuality that is exemplified in boasting and joking about "big dicks", is something that many, many women perceive as a threat

"omg that man talked about his memory stick like it was a penis! He's obviously a future rapist".


Whereas liberals pretend to be progressive, while attacking every woman that dares to challenge patriarchy.


She got a man fired for making a harmless joke. She has dealt a worthy blow to ominous patriachy. I hear it is going to fall next monday due to the brave efforts of this women.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I see nothing wrong with it contents.

Of course you don't, comrade "confused" social-democrat.


"omg that man talked about his memory stick like it was a penis! He's obviously a future rapist".

Men that perpetuate an atmosphere of hostility to women are not necessarily rapists. Anyway, for someone that relies on the shtick of denouncing "tumblr feminists", your argumentative strategy is hilariously close to that of the social justice brigade.


She got a man fired for making a harmless joke.

Oh, how horrible. Let's forget about the discrimination and oppression women suffer because, wow, a dude got fired.


She has dealt a worthy blow to ominous patriachy. I hear it is going to fall next monday due to the brave efforts of this women.

Drop me a PM when you decide to grow up.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

Men that perpetuate an atmosphere of hostility to women are not necessarily rapists.

Again, how the word 'penis' do this.


Oh, how horrible. Let's forget about the discrimination and oppression women suffer because, wow, a dude got fired.


Yeah, and this really did something great for women's rights.


Drop me a PM when you decide to grow up.

Heh, feel free to drop me a PM when you stop advocating the murder of political oppnents.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Again, how the word 'penis' do this.

Again, jokes about "big dicks" are a form of macho, aggressive masculinity that many women find threatening, for good reason. As has already been pointed out. I feel like a broken record.


Yeah, and this really did something great for women's rights.

It increases awareness of these sorts of jokes and how they contribute to a hostile atmosphere; it has also had the usual effect of drawing MREs and tough-guy misogynist internet "progressives" from their holes.


Heh, feel free to drop me a PM when you stop advocating the murder of political oppnents.

I don't plan to convert to Christianity any time soon.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

women find threatening, for good reason. As has already been pointed out.

This makes no sense, you ascribe some mythical status to a word, used in a very specific context. It's not like the joke was "hah, this momory is stick is like my penis, like the way my penis will rape that women to the left of me!"


It increases awareness of these sorts of jokes and how they contribute to a hostile atmosphere;

The only thing contributing to a hostile atmosphere here is taking unauthorised photos and sticking them on the internet.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

This makes no sense, you ascribe some mythical status to a word, used in a very specific context.

I ascribe to words a mystical power to induce certain responses and moods in the listener. Scientists are baffled by this process, but it seems to include the brain at some point (unlike much that has been posted on this thread).


The only thing contributing to a hostile atmosphere here is taking unauthorised photos and sticking them on the internet.

Hostility from confused social-democrats, perhaps, but then again, who cares? Most such people are one pep talk about male rights away from being card-carrying MREs.

[Quail]

I hadn't heard about this until I read this thread. I just thought I would draw attention to this, from Richards' blog:

Jesse was on the main stage with thousands of people sitting in the audience. He was talking about helping the next generation learn to program and how happy PyCon was with the Young Coders workshop (https://us.pycon.org/2013/events/letslearnpython/) (which I volunteered at). He was mentioning that the PyLadies auction (https://us.pycon.org/2013/sponsors/charityauction/) had raised $10,000 in a single night and the funds would be used the funds for their initiatives.
I saw a photo on main stage of a little girl who had been in the Young Coders workshop.
I realized I had to do something or she would never have the chance to learn and love programming because the ass clowns behind me would make it impossible for her to do so.
Seems like these guys were pissing about making immature jokes about dongles while someone was on stage talking about the success of the auction for PyLadies - an initiative which helps women get into programming. So not only were they making dick jokes which might make a woman feel uncomfortable, they showed that they apparently don't care about encouraging women to get into programming. So I can understand why Richards felt pissed off, although maybe she didn't deal with it in the best way.

Also, AConfusedSocialDemocrat - maybe you need to step back and cool off a bit before you come out with anything else questionable. "Penis envy"? Really?

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

I ascribe to words a mystical power to induce certain responses and moods in the listener. Scientists are baffled by this process, but it seems to include the brain at some point (unlike much that has been posted on this thread).

Magical words negating all subject autonomy. PENIS! (http://www.dead-philosophers.com/?p=54)


Hostility from confused social-democrats, perhaps, but then again, who cares? Most such people are one pep talk about male rights away from being card-carrying MREs.

Heh, whatever helps you sleep at night, comrade.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

Also, AConfusedSocialDemocrat - maybe you need to step back and cool off a bit before you come out with anything else questionable. "Penis envy"? Really?

Like holodomor denial?

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Like making an arse out of yourself by employing tired misogynist tropes (penis envy, evil feminists conspiring to have poor old boys fired - in this economy!) and so on.

[Quail]

Like holodomor denial?
This isn't relevant to the discussion. As I said, you should take a break, cool off and if you still disagree with someone, come back and make a constructive post giving logical arguments for your point of view. Your last two posts were quite spammy, and if you continue to post like that you'll get a warning.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

Like making an arse out of yourself by employing tired misogynist tropes (penis envy, evil feminists conspiring to have poor old boys fired - in this economy!) and so on.

What misogynist tropes have I employed, I don't hate women, I haven't supported the internet's reaction, I have just taken issue with the way she handled this scenario, and the mythical status we are giving language, and the right for people not to be shamed on the internet for private conversations.

[Quail]

We're not giving language "mythical status". Language has specific contexts and connotations in a patriarchal society. People making immature penis jokes reinforces the feeling that you are in a male-dominated area and that you don't really "belong" there. Maybe it seems like nothing to you, but some women (including myself) feel uncomfortable in overly macho environments. It's not about growing a thicker skin either. People should be aware of others around them and act in a way that is respectful and inclusive. That shouldn't really be a big deal. It's not hard, once you've made the connection that doing or saying certain things makes people feel uncomfortable, to learn not to do those things.

[AConfusedSocialDemocrat]

Language has specific contexts and connotations in a patriarchal society.

But this negates intention, the way 'penis' was used was in a jovial manner, not in a way intended to put women down e.g. a rape joke. To further demonstrate how context heavy language is we can look into the medical realm, for example, a doctor using the word penis. I take you wouldn't feel that this would demonstrate an 'overly macho' enviroment.


People should be aware of others around them and act in a way that is respectful and inclusive.

Like not eavesdropping or inciting a lynching via the internet.

It is clear we are approaching this problem from two contradictory foundations, and I doubt one of us is going to convince the other, so I think the time has come for us to respectfully agree to differ and bow out.

[#FF0000]

What misogynist tropes have I employed, I don't hate women, I haven't supported the internet's reaction, I have just taken issue with the way she handled this scenario, and the mythical status we are giving language, and the right for people not to be shamed on the internet for private conversations.

On top of taking a break to cool off, you should probably read the thread before posting in it please.

"Private conversations" aren't heard by other, non-participating parties in a professional setting. It simply isn't a private correspondence then.

I don't think there's anything wrong with hella childish dick jokes, but there's a time and place, and a professional (aka "working" aka whatever you want to call a tech industry conference) isn't it, especially one that has rules specifically about this kind of thing.

Are dick jokes misogynist? I don't know, I think context is important. One can certainly make the argument that dudes locker room talk can make things awkward for women in the same space and all that. I don't think that you need to take that stance to see where these guys were wrong, though. Like I said, no one should be made to feel uncomfortable in a professional/working environment, and there's nothing wrong with going to someone to stop it (which is why she took the picture -- to get the attention of the hosts of the event. The hosts spoke to the men, and they apologized. Should have ended there).

I'm basically repeating what I said several times over in the thread, by the way, so it'd be cool if you just read the rest of the thread, please. It's very annoying saying a thing, and then someone else going on as if you never made the points you did.

[#FF0000]

But this negates intention, the way 'penis' was used was in a jovial manner, not in a way intended to put women down e.g. a rape joke. To further demonstrate how context heavy language is we can look into the medical realm, for example, a doctor using the word penis. I take you wouldn't feel that this would demonstrate an 'overly macho' enviroment.

1) You can do things that make people uncomfortable without intending to do so. It happens. It happened here.
2) There is a huge difference between talking about anatomy in a doctor's office and making sexual jokes (apparently about the women on stage, and not just the word "dongle"). Please don't be obtuse. I know you aren't that stupid.


Like not eavesdropping or inciting a lynching via the internet.


That isn't what she did. People behind her were making inappropriate jokes, loud enough to hear. She posted the picture to get the attention of the PyCon hosts. She did.

You're not going based on facts here -- you're ascribing motive where there is none.

[#FF0000]

-Some guys telling a private joke to each other.

It was in a public, professional space. Not private.


-She eavesdrops. It was loud enough to hear.


-She decides to throw a hissy fit.
She was uncomfortable.


-Uploads their pictures on the internet, without their consent, to pretty much stir up a lynching against them.
To get the attention of PyCon hosts, which she did. The situation was handled.


-One of the guys, with a family, gets fired, in this horrible economy.
She didn't fire him. Be upset at the company.


-She then gets fired, quite rightly, for trying to inspire mob justice.
She did not "try to inspire mob justice"


1. Stop listening in to other peoples private conversations.
2. Grow thicker skin.You need to

1) stay off of 4chan
2) stop ascribing imagined motives to people
3) read the thread

EDIT: I posted more or less the same information three times in a row so you don't have an excuse now

[Quail]

But this negates intention, the way 'penis' was used was in a jovial manner, not in a way intended to put women down e.g. a rape joke. To further demonstrate how context heavy language is we can look into the medical realm, for example, a doctor using the word penis. I take you wouldn't feel that this would demonstrate an 'overly macho' enviroment.

Someone can make a rape joke with jovial intent though, because they don't realise that rape jokes are offensive. Many people (of all genders) contribute towards a sexist environment without realising that they are doing so, so intent isn't really relevant. In the context of a medical setting, penis is a medical term so in that context there isn't a problem with using it. It's all about context.


Like not eavesdropping or inciting a lynching via the internet.
"Inciting a lynching" is a bit of an exaggeration, but regardless, most people arguing that the joke was inappropriate have also admitted that Richards didn't deal with it very well.

[MP5]

The thing is most women i know who call themselves feminists would not be offended by such bullshit. A ex of mine who identifies herself as a Marxist and a feminist could sling jokes like this as good as any guy. Instead of getting upset over things she would usually just insult the person back instead of giving them the satisfaction of offending her. I think this was actually a large part of the reason i loved her in the first place :grin: . I use language in everyday conversation that some people would deem as being sexist but i am certainly anything but. It's the way in which it is said not the word itself that makes it sexist. We aren't all middle class academics who watch our language no matter how tipsy we may be after all.

[#FF0000]

The thing is most women i know who call themselves feminists would not be offended by such bullshit

Uh, same I think, depending on context? I said earlier in the thread, I know I've been in situations at work where others (managers) made me extremely uncomfortable with their jokes and comments, and my humor is p. much abyssal in how black it is.

Like I said, I don't think anyone should have lost their jobs over it. She could have said something to them, or she could have gotten event hosts to say something to them (she did the latter). That's as far as it had to go.

[MP5]

Uh, same I think, depending on context? I said earlier in the thread, I know I've been in situations at work where others (managers) made me extremely uncomfortable with their jokes and comments, and my humor is p. much abyssal in how black it is.

Like I said, I don't think anyone should have lost their jobs over it. She could have said something to them, or she could have gotten event hosts to say something to them (she did the latter). That's as far as it had to go.

Well yes that's a very good point. It is all about context and also there is a time and place for everything and one place where you don't make jokes like this no matter what the intent is when you are at work. Fucking idiots! I have seen companies fire people over much less to be honest. While i am at the pub i may use the C word rather liberally (unlike most of North America it has no sexist connotations at all here) but i would certainly never use it at work. If your that stupid you deserve to be fired in my opinion. Though it is abit of a overreaction perhaps.

[Quail]

I think context is important. Words aren't inherently offensive, but the context in which they are used means that they can be offensive, especially if they are already loaded terms. I am guilty of using the c-word a fair bit, but it depends on the situation. It doesn't have the same connotations in the UK as in North America, but I also don't use it in contexts where it would be considered a gendered insult to British people.

[Anti-Traditional]

Good for you. She did think it was offensive, and I agree with her.

Okay, I feel obliged to backtrack somewhat on my earlier positions. I still don't think such jokes are offensive per se (I think ''offensive'' implies a direct comment on an individual or social group), although I do realise that by their very exclusionary nature that such ''banter'' might be intimidating.

I think her response was wrong. They didn't deserve to have their pictures posted online without consent regardless of her intentions. I also think that none of the people involved (including richards) deserved to be sacked.

Her own penis jokes mean that accusations of hypocrisy aren't entirely unjustified.

In conclusion, I don't think any individual here is worthy of defending. However it is important to realise that certain male-dominated sectors of economy and the associated norms (and ''banter'') can create an uncomfortable atmosphere for women workers.

[#FF0000]

Her own penis jokes mean that accusations of hypocrisy aren't entirely unjustified.

idk, like I said earlier, personal twitter account =/= Professional environ in meatspace.

I think everyone in the situation is worth defending, tho. Dudes apologized, so no harm no foul imo. The one didn't deserve to be fired. Nor did the woman. And she certainly doesn't deserve the internet hate fest.

[Anti-Traditional]

idk, like I said earlier, personal twitter account =/= Professional environ in meatspace.

I think everyone in the situation is worth defending, tho. Dudes apologized, so no harm no foul imo. The one didn't deserve to be fired. Nor did the woman. And she certainly doesn't deserve the internet hate fest.

The real enemy here is management. They're the ones who create an environment where such banter is perceived as normal and who wont pay attention to complaints to the extent that richards felt compelled to take such excessive action, and theyre the ones who sacked everyone involved.

I dont think the jokes were sexist or offensive. They were however exclusionary and intimidatory to women in the workplace.

[#FF0000]

I dont think the jokes were sexist or offensive. They were however exclusionary and intimidatory to women in the workplace.

If they're exclusionary and intimidating to women, then they're sexist. I don't think they're intimidating or anything though. They just lend to an environment that leads to people (women and men alike, though probs mostly women) being made to feel uncomfortable in a professional space.

"Offensive" is a subjective thing too so.

(I'm nitpicking because I'm getting ready for a trip so I'm procrastinating)

[Raúl Duke]

Actually looking back on the blog post.

Her response was actually quite right, albeit in a public way (which had ramifications for these 2 jokers, one which got fired but hey that's a decision his company made). While I don't agree with the way it's rationalized in the blog post, which makes exposing a dick joke sound like an epic battle for feminism in tech conventions (thus agreeing with slum that there are more important matters than an unprofessional, inappropriate dick joke and that it's rather silly to hyperbole the banal/inane things).

These 2 were making an immature joke which is inappropriate, possibly "exclusionist," sexist, et.al to some, and I think may have been against the code of conduct of the convention. She tweeted it to the attention of the convention organizers.It's totally reasonable to bring this up to the convention organizers, the main issue I guess is the public nature of it all which got someone fired. Plus there could have been other ways to bring the issue up, but hey there are probably reasons why it occurred the way it did.

It also wasn't particularly hypocritical, your "personal twitter, tumblr, blog, FB, etc" is basically a personal space where you can say whatever you want including a penis joke which Adria did at some point allegedly. But is this acceptable in a professional or serious setting? of course not. Some reasons why is because it may make some women uncomfortable or excluded. Think about the revleft's policy concerning certain words, we don't allow them here (but I really doubt most people on revleft care if you use those words in your own time, outside a serious discussion board).

[Crixus]

Again, jokes about "big dicks" are a form of macho, aggressive masculinity that many women find threatening, for good reason.
And yet, at the very same convention she made a joke about big dicks. Here's where my wiring goes haywire.
XM_YeUCMjII

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

She made the joke about big dicks. Notice the pronoun; of course, women can spout sexist nonsense, but when a woman mentions big dicks, it is usually not threatening in the sense that it displays a macho aggressive male sexuality.

[Raúl Duke]

[yet] at the very same convention she made a joke about big dicks.

She did?
Now I'm confused...

Eh, whatever. This donglegate is stupid and a big controversy over really nothing.

[Orange Juche]

She posted pictures to "shame" them? What is she, ten years old?

I'm not saying she shouldn't be offended. I'm saying the way she handled it is kind of stupid, to be blunt.

[Crixus]

She made the joke about big dicks. Notice the pronoun; of course, women can spout sexist nonsense, but when a woman mentions big dicks, it is usually not threatening in the sense that it displays a macho aggressive male sexuality.
Still doesn't work for me. If you're offended by penis jokes you're offended by penis jokes. If you don't want penis jokes told at a tech convention then don't tell penis jokes at a tech convention then turn around and act offended when someone tells a penis joke at a tech convention. I completely understand creating a safe work environment where women don't feel sexualized, intimidated or uncomfortable but you see, what ruins that scenario in her case, in my eyes, is the fact she was telling penis jokes at the same convention. I don't think she was really offended, intimidated or threatened I think it was purely an opportunist political tactic only because of her telling big penis jokes at the same convention and her twitter is work related as well. It's an avenue for networking just as the convention was an avenue for networking.

This isnt to say men should be telling penis jokes at work, it was a stupid thing for them to do and if I was there I would've turned around and told them to quit acting like idiots. She could've also been more inclusive and less authoritarian in her approach in her goal to teach them a lesson in feminism 101 but the ideological self righteous moral indignation she felt, as that's what I think it was in her case, not any sort of actual intimidation, drove her to take their pictures and post them online and cause a spectacle. The excuse being made for her is that sexism is so rampant in the tech industry she dint have the patience to "explain rape culture" to the donglers when in reality she very well could have and should have explained that although she thinks their silly jokes were lighthearted, as she herself just told one, some women will feel uncomfortable and intimidated by such language and I'm sure the men would've apologized and would have probably been open to changing their behavior in the future. Instead we have this mess.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

I have never claimed the jokes are offensive; perhaps some find them offensive, but that is besides the point. What I have claimed is that such jokes, spoken in this specific context by men, are intimidating. The penis joke made by Richards is not intimidating, since she is a woman, and the joke did not display the sort of aggressive male sexuality that many women find intimidating.

Nor do I think we should really criticise her for her handling of the situation; sure, an opportunity for some small propaganda work has been missed, but as a woman, she had every right to simply tell them to bugger off and face the consequences of her actions. Do we really want to go around telling members of oppressed groups that their response to intimidation and patriarchy is wrong if they haven't turned it into a propaganda campaign?

[MarxArchist]

Still doesn't work for me. If you're offended by penis jokes you're offended by penis jokes. If you don't want penis jokes told at a tech convention then don't tell penis jokes at a tech convention then turn around and act offended when someone tells a penis joke at a tech convention. I completely understand creating a safe work environment where women don't feel sexualized, intimidated or uncomfortable but you see, what ruins that scenario in her case, in my eyes, is the fact she was telling penis jokes at the same convention. I don't think she was really offended, intimidated or threatened I think it was purely an opportunist political tactic only because of her telling big penis jokes at the same convention and her twitter is work related as well. It's an avenue for networking just as the convention was an avenue for networking.

This isnt to say men should be telling penis jokes at work, it was a stupid thing for them to do and if I was there I would've turned around and told them to quit acting like idiots. She could've also been more inclusive and less authoritarian in her approach in her goal to teach them a lesson in feminism 101 but the ideological self righteous moral indignation she felt, as that's what I think it was in her case, not any sort of actual intimidation, drove her to take their pictures and post them online and cause a spectacle. The excuse being made for her is that sexism is so rampant in the tech industry she dint have the patience to "explain rape culture" to the donglers when in reality she very well could have and should have explained that although she thinks their silly jokes were lighthearted, as she herself just told one, some women will feel uncomfortable and intimidated by such language and I'm sure the men would've apologized and would have probably been open to changing their behavior in the future. Instead we have this mess.

I'm flirting with your position. Not sure if I'm allowed to 'flirt' with your position though. The last post I made on this site was concerning peoples tendency to defend anything to do with feminism while singling out people as sexist/misogynistic who, as is the case in this thread, disagree with certain tactics. It started to happen to me in this thread and I just walked away:
http://www.revleft.com/vb/antisexuality-t178962/index2.html


In this specific case I think you hit the nail on the head. Her actions, both making big penis jokes at the convention and then raising hell over penis jokes at the convention, do indeed expose not true fear, intimidation and an attack on her specifically but as you said an opportunity to put her views into action. It was grandstanding to say the least and she's a PR person (public relations). Are people aware what that job is? It's to make your company and overall field look appealing to consumers, yes I know fuck capitalism and I do indeed place women's struggle miles above any stupid capitalists profits but she being both an activist for womans rights and a PR person should have simply told the two guys to tweet the penis jokes like she was doing and as you said explain that penis jokes might make women uncomfortable while surrounded by men (although she was making penis jokes while surrounded by men).

In the end both her company and feminism in general have suffered a blow to their public image and like her company I'm not willing to support her tactics especially in light of the fact she herself was making penis jokes at the same convention. It's the perfect storm for everyone to look like idiots. The men, her, the entire scenario is idiotic. In the end what has she done, in this specific case, for woman's liberation? Anything positive? I'm not saying women should play by men's rules but have some tact for christ sakes. Be aware that if you just made penis jokes at a tech convention it may not be wise to raise holy hell over people telling penis jokes. I agree it hurts feminism's public image even though men shouldn't be sitting around telling penis jokes at work or work related functions.

This all gets lost in the sick reaction to the situation online. I was just on youtube reading some of the posts and even though some people will chalk it up to "trolling" thats no excuse. The death threats, the rape threats, the racist name calling exposes the underline hatred for women and people of color that still exists in this society but fighting that madness means women need a strong viable feminist movement and I'm not sure Adria's actions strengthened feminism. She created a wedge issue amongst 'normal' average people who arent threatening to rape or kill her. Are these minor wedge issues worth the negative blowback? Why is there negative blowback in the first place (not talking about the racist rape/murder threats). Why do average men and women both see this in a negative light? Are they all reactionary misogynists and women brainwashed by the patriarchy? Maybe this specific situation is rife with bullshit. I think it is.

[slum]

What misogynist tropes have I employed

here's a handy list!

"a hissy fit."

"to pretty much stir up a lynching against them."

"both sexes are fucked currently"

"it's just some basement dwellers trolling"

"unless penis envy"

"you could be reading to much into this"

"What ever a woman states is sexsim, is sexism"

"omg that man talked about his memory stick like it was a penis! He's obviously a future rapist".

"inciting a lynching via the internet"

and my personal favorite:

"I don't hate women"

good for you! you also have been saying some hella sexist nonsense

p.s. i'm not a tumblr feminist and don't think dissecting language is the best way to fight sexism, so don't bother with that one.

[MarxArchist]

By the way her penis jokes were done on her work account on twitter. Food for thought. A work account with about 10,000 people on it.

[Vanguard1917]

i'm definitely gonna be fired one of these days.

[Let's Get Free]

I think this is absurd. "Dongles?" Come on, that's PG shit. It's dirty, in the cleanest way possible. 99.99999% of the time, these guys wouldn't have gotten in any trouble whatsoever. Why do people feel the need to run around a make a huge display of their every indignation?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I agree it hurts feminism's public image
Debatable, considering even bourgeois feminism is only slightly more palatable to many people than communism is. Which says a lot for how entrenched sexism is in our society.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I think this is absurd. "Dongles?" Come on, that's PG shit. It's dirty, in the cleanest way possible.
It's still a dick joke, so not really appropriate. Didn't one of the guys later say in retrospect it wasn't appropriate? Yet some people keep making it about the woman?

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I think her response was wrong. They didn't deserve to have their pictures posted online without consent regardless of her intentions. I also think that none of the people involved (including richards) deserved to be sacked.
I agree, no one should have lost their jobs over this, and it could have been handled better.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

She posted pictures to "shame" them? What is she, ten years old?
You're calling her out for immaturity, but not adult men making dick jokes? How does that work?

[MarxArchist]

Debatable, considering even bourgeois feminism is only slightly more palatable to many people than communism is. Which says a lot for how entrenched sexism is in our society.

Sexism exists yes. The need for feminism to fight it is real, yes. Donglegate shows us the way! No. She fucked up. Admit it. Move on. Victim blaming you say? I question the fact that she was a victim. She was posting penis jokes at Pi-Con on her work related twitter with 10,000 people on it then turned around and became, in her words, a hero, the Joan Of Arc of fighting penis jokes at Pi-Con and did so in such a fashion as to create a public shit storm. Now she has no job, one of the donglers has no job and many many people who may have been open to the need for and goals of feminism in the work place are holding their noses.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Sexism exists yes. The need for feminism to fight it is real, yes. Donglegate shows us the way! No. She fucked up. Admit it. Move on.
I would have handled it differently, but I wouldn't say she "fucked up." She called attention to a problem at the conference, and it was dealt with there. If anyone overreacted, it was the two employers.


Victim blaming you say?
No, I didn't say, but I find it interesting that some see her in a more negative light.

[MarxArchist]

I would have handled it differently, but I wouldn't say she "fucked up." She called attention to a problem at the conference, and it was dealt with there. If anyone overreacted, it was the two employers.


No, I didn't say, but I find it interesting that some see her in a more negative light.
I just don't see her specifically in this case as a victim. Are women in the work place victims of sexism via sexualized conversation, innuendo, unwanted advances, outright sexual assault and harassment? Yes. The thing is, she posted a penis joke on a work related avenue for networking. She was playing the same game these two men were. Both jokes were light hearted and innocent in my opinion but shouldn't have been posted/said at or on work related media/events. They all fucked up.

[Let's Get Free]

I think this is such trivial nonsense that we shouldn't even be discussing it.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I just don't see her specifically in this case as a victim. Are women in the work place victims of sexism via sexualized conversation, innuendo, unwanted advances, outright sexual assault and harassment? Yes. The thing is...
The thing is, the two men were making innuendo at a professional conference. That's the problem that needed fixed. Whatever she did, or didn't do, is secondary.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I think this is such trivial nonsense that we shouldn't even be discussing it.
Sexism = trivial nonsense?

[crazyirish93]

Two guys making dick jokes amongst themselves at conference (which they shouldn't have been according to the rules of the conference) doesn't really seem like sexism to me unless i missing something.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Two guys making dick jokes amongst themselves at conference (which they shouldn't have been according to the rules of the conference) doesn't really seem like sexism to me unless i missing something.
Sexualized conversation, innuendo, etc., can create a hostile environment for women. When men feel it's acceptable and are comfortable in doing so, it reflects a sexist culture.

Also, "amongst themselves"? In a public area at a professional conference, loud enough for nearby people to hear?

[MarxArchist]

I'm not in the tech industry. This is what I'm dealing with in my world. This is what women are dealing with in the world I experience and we're talking about dongle jokes. On my way to the market I walk over the blood stains:

http://sfist.com/2013/03/26/woman_reportedly_shot_in_the_face_f.php
(http://sfist.com/2013/03/26/woman_reportedly_shot_in_the_face_f.php)
but it's not in some petty bourgeois office setting where people make 100k a year so no one gives a shit.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I'm not in the tech industry. This is what I'm dealing with in my world. This is what women are dealing with in the world I experience and we're talking about dongle jokes. On my way to the market I walk over the blood stains:

http://sfist.com/2013/03/26/woman_reportedly_shot_in_the_face_f.php
No one forced you to engage in this thread, if it's not important to you. But whether it's sexism in the workplace or violence in the streets, it reflects an ideological system where people have no value.

[MarxArchist]

No one forced you to engage in this thread, if it's not important to you. But whether it's sexism in the workplace or violence in the streets, it reflects an ideological system where people have no value.
I've been pretty consistent is saying this is silly. I'm just driving that point home. I also don't think the men devalued her by one saying "I have big dongles" to the other. Should he have said it? No. I simply don't see it as the shining beacon of patriarchal oppression in support of rape culture. Inappropriate? Yes. Immature? Yes but so were was her joke concerning the size of a mans penis (posted on her work networking media). I'm sure there's plenty more serious offenses people can go defcom 4 over.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I've been pretty consistent is saying this is silly. I'm just driving that point home.
If you don't think a topic is important, why waste your time repeatedly posting in the thread about how it isn't important? One one reason: to be a jerk.


I'm sure there's plenty more serious offenses people can go defcom 4 over.
Is this the worst example of sexism out there? Far from it. But as a woman, I don't think it's "silly."

[MarxArchist]

If you don't think a topic is important, why waste your time repeatedly posting in the thread about how it isn't important? One one reason: to be a jerk.


Is this the worst example of sexism out there? Far from it. But as a woman, I don't think it's "silly."

I'm offering criticism. Not to be a jerk but because without criticism people would do and support all sorts of counterproductive tactics. I'm open to criticism and at this point if you really feel I'm being a jerk I'll stop posting. We don't have to carry on with any sort of negative interaction. See, I'm open to criticism :)

[RadARAinATL]

I have no idea in regards to the context of either joke said by the woman or the men she overheard, but I can apply the general rule of what's true to the larger, societal context.

When it comes to women, people of color and other oppressed groups, as people fighting oppression, we should give women/people of color/working class people the benefit of the doubt in regards to their associations with the dominant group. For example, if I was to post a vague story of how a worker overheard a joke that a boss/CEO/person of power told that touched upon working class issues, I think we would give the worker the benefit of the doubt, right? Whether or not that person posts jokes about the working class is irrelevant. I think a lot of what we do as activists is based on hearsay, and sometimes, we just have to give the benefit of the doubt. There have been dozens of times people have invited me to protests against police brutality and various other issues, and I didn't know any of the facts, but I still attended. Why? Because in a system of capitalism, the prison industrial complex and white supremacy, police brutality is so common, so systematic, I can (and should) safely assume the position that benefits the oppressed. The same applies to this situation and others like it.

If we look at the issue from a class perspective, we see that a woman (a member of the subjugated class) was offended by a joke by two members of the dominant class. Beyond that, we also know that sexual jokes are a form of sexual harassment. As a woman, I can also tell you that men make sexual jokes to create a male space. That is what sexual harassment is about. It's about reminding women, particularly in the workplace where women are already disadvantaged, that this is a man's space, and they are entitled to it . Men do this to make women uncomfortable, and they do it ALL THE TIME. I have experienced it my whole life. I'm willing to bet the dick joke wasn't simply a dick joke, it was probably a sexual joke.

Let's also not forget, what happens on the individualized level is less important in regards to class; The greater, societal, class, macro level IS what matters. So, whether a woman posts a million dick jokes or not, it will never have the same consequences/intentions/cultural context as a man's dick joke, let alone invalidate her concerns.

I would also ask that some of the men who posted, many of which were quick to side with the men, do some self reflection and think about the consequences of being a man and being quick to dismiss concerns of sexism. If you dig deep, you might notice there's a pattern here that fits conveniently with patriarchy.

To sum it up, whether or not the dick jokes were harmless, we should give members of the oppressed group the benefit of the doubt when they raise concerns of sexism/racism/oppression.

[Let's Get Free]

Sexism = trivial nonsense?

Sexism? What, where these guys thinking in their head as they made the jokes "how can we better oppress women in the workplace? How can we make it impossible for females to enter into this profession? I know! We'll make cutesy dick jokes to scare them all away!"

Come on now. No one should have to live in fear that the next joke they make will cost them their livelihoods.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I'm offering criticism. Not to be a jerk but because without criticism people would do and support all sorts of counterproductive tactics. I'm open to criticism and at this point if you really feel I'm being a jerk I'll stop posting. We don't have to carry on with any sort of negative interaction. See, I'm open to criticism :)
It comes across as dismissal more than criticism. We both agree that this is far from the worst form of sexism that exists, but I don't think it's silly to discuss it or how it can affect women.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

Sexism? What, where these guys thinking in their head as they made the jokes "how can we better oppress women in the workplace? How can we make it impossible for females to enter into this profession? I know! We'll make cutesy dick jokes to scare them all away!"
As I said twice before in this thread, their comfort in making such jokes is a reflection of a sexist culture.


Come on now. No one should have to live in fear that the next joke they make will cost them their livelihoods.
Did I say they deserved to lose their jobs?

[Rugged Collectivist]

As I said twice before in this thread, their comfort in making such jokes is a reflection of a sexist culture.

I still don't understand why.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I still don't understand why.
Well, I don't understand why it's such a hard concept to understand.

[slum]

lol i feel like i ought to re-examine my opinion on this since marxarchist liked all my posts. what have i done wrong?

[Quail]

I understand that compared to other manifestations of a patriarchal society, a couple of guys making penis jokes is a pretty small thing. But on the other hand, it's the little things like this that can make women feel excluded from places as it's all the little things which collectively serve as a reminder that a meeting, a workplace, a sports clubs is a male dominated place. So while one isolated joke might not seem so bad, that joke is just one little bit of a wider culture that excludes women. It's probably not deliberate either. I don't think that men conspire together to make women feel unwelcome, as some people seem to be making a strawman of. Rather many men simply don't think about how their behaviour could be intimidating or exclusive and don't realise they're doing it.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I don't think that men conspire together to make women feel unwelcome, as some people seem to be making a strawman of. Rather many men simply don't think about how their behaviour could be intimidating or exclusive and don't realise they're doing it.
Exactly. For many men, it's unconscious behavior.

[Positivist]

How people percieve feminism should be important. Thats the issue I'm concerned with. It's all over the media and has started, online, the same sort of backlash Skepchick started when she was outraged about being invited up to a mans room for coffee in an elevator at an atheist convention. The backlash from that is still with us and the backlash from the Tech convention is going to be the same sort of scenario if not worse. I wouldn't say it's unimportant. Just sayin. Also if the vast majority of feminists support Adria what makes you different for not supporting her and me different for finding it hard to do so? Are we not 'real' supporters of feminism? Do we lack a clear view of what women face everyday? Was the tech convention not a safe place for women because of these men? Do many feminists cry wolf because of an underline political agenda? Do situations like this help or hurt the cause of women's liberation? There's a lot of imporatnt questions to be asked and answered surrounding this issue and others like it. If I'm being a sexist asshole for finding it hard to support her I'd like to know why.

Well I don't really support her either and I don't think that reduces my credentials as an advocate of women's emancipation, nor do I think any opinion towards such a minor and menial event should.

[Sperm-Doll Setsuna]

Well I don't really support her either and I don't think that reduces my credentials as an advocate of women's emancipation, nor do I think any opinion towards such a minor and menial event should.

The ramifications of the event are hardly minor, though; both in terms of the firing and perhaps even more the popular social reaction to it. Context is quite important.

[homegrown terror]

i think what it comes down to is company and context. show me the person who has never, ever made a dirty joke and i'll show you a severely repressed individual. there is nothing inherently wrong with blue humor, the problem comes from not having the human decency to know your surroundings, and not loudmouth it in front of someone who doesn't want to have to deal with it. i myself am a foul-mouthed motherfucker at work, but only when i'm in the company of other foul-mouthed motherfuckers. i have a few co-workers who have either explicitly or implicitly desired not to partake in that kind of humor and language, and i fully respect that. i wouldn't want to have to walk around hearing people saying denigrating things about ANY demographic i'm party to, and i show others that same respect.

[Rugged Collectivist]

Well, I don't understand why it's such a hard concept to understand.

Neither do I, but if I haven't gotten it by now I don't know if I ever will.

[l'Enfermé]

I'm pretty confused. How are penis jokes sexist? Both men and women have penises. What fucking transphobia. :(

[Ethics Gradient, Traitor For All Ages]

The whole thing seems pretty overblown but I'm in IT and I can definitely see why immature jokes make the workplace hostile towards women in the field given the type of men that are generally drawn to this type of work. This may come as a shock, but like 95% of single men in IT are of the Nice Guy© variety. The only thing thicker than misogyny in the field is the elitism that apparently springs from being a glorified maintenance person.

[#FF0000]

Still doesn't work for me. If you're offended by penis jokes you're offended by penis jokes.

No, context is important. There's a lot of things I find funny when said between my friends and I. Those same things would be extremely inappropriate and would make me hella uncomfortable if it were my manager saying them to/around me.


Sexism exists yes. The need for feminism to fight it is real, yes. Donglegate shows us the way! No. She fucked up. Admit it. Move on.

Nah. The companies that fired people over this did.


The only thing thicker than misogyny in the field is the elitism that apparently springs from being a glorified maintenance person.

https://gs1.wac.edgecastcdn.net/8019B6/data.tumblr.com/tumblr_m87wwuJcMG1qjnpnp.gif

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I'm pretty confused. How are penis jokes sexist? Both men and women have penises. What fucking transphobia. :(
Except women with penises tend not to sit around in public making jokes about their penis size and making other women uncomfortable. So calling it sexist in this instance isn't transphobic.

[Tenka]

I'm pretty confused. How are penis jokes sexist? Both men and women have penises. What fucking transphobia. :(

The jokes as such are not sexist. What I think was sexist was the ease with which they were made in the company of strangers. It's an example of that "boy's locker-room mentality" or whatever that even RevLeft has sometimes been criticised for, which mentality consists of both an implicit awareness and acceptance of male dominance in an area, or something like that (I am making up my own definition in hopes that it is approximately correct; so if it's off, please correct it.).

As has been expressed, though, fuck the reactions of Bosses and Most of the Internet.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Genetalia jokes are not inherently sexist. They could be in certain contexts, like if they objectify women or imply rape, but making a genital pun isn't. Nor is making a pun about the sexual act. Human beings love genitals and sex, I don't see why people wouldn't make jokes about it. It might be juvenile and unprofessional in many contexts but not sexist. What IS sexist is the attitude of men towards women in engineering, and which might have led her to find their joke more offensive than other people might have. The fact that women might be viewed as weird for making such jokes would be a form of sexism, or the fact that the woman created such an uproar on the internet by misogynistic men. I think that's the real issue to be addressed.

Nobody should have been fired in this case (either the photographed workers) or the blogger, and no woman ever deserves to get sent rape threats or death threats, or other kinds of sexist attacks, especially for the crime of merely finding two juvenile men "offensive".


The jokes as such are not sexist. What I think was sexist was the ease with which they were made in the company of strangers. It's an example of that "boy's locker-room mentality" or whatever that even RevLeft has sometimes been criticised for, which mentality consists of both an implicit awareness and acceptance of male dominance in an area, or something like that (I am making up my own definition in hopes that it is approximately correct; so if it's off, please correct it.).


Should men working in male dominated fields then censor themselves and avoid such jokes? Isn't the bigger issue to address the material conditions for the fact that there are not more women in the workplace to begin with? I see how the frequency of certain kinds of jokes could be indicative of a male-dominated culture but it seems to serve more as a superficial effect of the dominance of one gender in a field than anything reinforcing sexism itself.

[#FF0000]

Should men working in male dominated fields then censor themselves and avoid such jokes?

Nah, just stop when they're asked to, I think. To be safe, just don't make those jokes around strangers.


Isn't the bigger issue to address the material conditions for the fact that there are not more women in the workplace to begin with?

Yes

[Il Medico]

I understand the reason she was upset about the joke. People loudly using crude humor in public certainly can be obnoxious and it's not very hard to understand how a lot of crude humor is sexist (though the jokes in question seemed pretty innocuous to me)and creates a hostile work environment for women. However, after reading her blog it seemed to me that she was being pedantic and hyperbolic about the whole thing. Considering multiple people ended up losing their jobs over this nonsense (her included?) just catapults the whole damn thing into new levels of asinine. It's one of those annoying pieces of hard to defend fluff feminism that does little to advance gender equality and is ultimately kinda stupid.

[l'Enfermé]

Except women with penises tend not to sit around in public making jokes about their penis size and making other women uncomfortable. So calling it sexist in this instance isn't transphobic.
I was not aware that a study has ever been conducted on this subject. Please don't make excuses for transphobia, comrade. We are socialists, we stand in solidarity with all who are oppressed, including transfolk.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

I was not aware that a study has ever been conducted on this subject. Please don't make excuses for transphobia, comrade. We are socialists, we stand in solidarity with all who are oppressed, including transfolk.
FYI, I'm a trans woman. If I thought it was transphobic, I would have called it out as such.

In so many environments, a trans woman talking about her penis would be putting herself in potential danger. So again, it's a cis male privilege to feel comfortable enough to make penis jokes anywhere, no matter who's around.

[homegrown terror]

FYI, I'm a trans woman. If I thought it was transphobic, I would have called it out as such.

In so many environments, a trans woman talking about her penis would be putting herself in potential danger. So again, it's a cis male privilege to feel comfortable enough to make penis jokes anywhere, no matter who's around.

another thing i've noticed for a long time: groups of guys in public will have no problem making sexual jokes regardless of the company, but groups of women will do so up until the point that a guy they don't know is within earshot, almost as if society has instilled in them the fear that making jokes like that around a strange guy will run the risk that he could see it as an invitation for sexual advances. the whole disparity makes me sick. we should all have equal access or inaccess to humor, and no one should have to live in fear that a joke about their respective fun parts will be a welcome mat for potential rapists.

[l'Enfermé]

FYI, I'm a trans woman. If I thought it was transphobic, I would have called it out as such.
So because you are a transwoman, you are impervious to transphobia? Transphobia, like patriarchy, is a part of the ideological superstructure of our societies. Anyone can fall for it. Thus women can support patriarchy and transpeople can support transphobia.


In so many environments, a trans woman talking about her penis would be putting herself in potential danger. So again, it's a cis male privilege to feel comfortable enough to make penis jokes anywhere, no matter who's around.So then the solution is to deny transwomen the right to make dick jokes, yeah? How is this not discrimination towards transfolk?

[Quail]

Earlier in the thread I stressed that context is important with these kind of things. Penis jokes aren't, by themselves, inherently sexist. It depends who is making them, in what company, etc. When two men working in a highly male-dominated field make penis jokes in the workplace, they may make women feel uncomfortable and unwelcome. A trans woman making a similar joke under similar circumstances, while still inappropriate for work, doesn't have the same effect because trans women are not a privileged group of people who dominate the workplace and make other women feel like they don't belong there.

[Danielle Ni Dhighe]

So then the solution is to deny transwomen the right to make dick jokes, yeah? How is this not discrimination towards transfolk?
What? No, seriously, you make absolutely no sense, and you clearly aren't responding to my actual words.

[Sinister Cultural Marxist]

Really this all comes down to common decency and maturity. If a person of any origin or group asked me politely to stop making a certain kind of joke because it made them uncomfortable, and they had some kind of justifiable reason for that discomfort, I would because humor is meant to be funny, not make people feel alienated. Those two tech workers were not in the wrong for making that joke in the first place, but had she asked them to stop and had they continued with that kind of behavior or insulted her afterwards, they would have shown their own lack of maturity and concern for their fellow worker and human being. Part of the struggle against sexism is in changing attitudes by making the solidarity which men feel towards one another extend to women, and as such making themselves responsive and sympathetic to the needs of women. Honestly I've never been approached by someone telling me something like that about a kind of humor I've employed but if I was, I would stop not out of a desire not to be sexist but out of a desire to be a mature human being who respects the emotions and feelings of human beings around him. What makes the joke offensive is incidental. It might be because a person sees the joke as reinforcing sexual inequality in the workplace, it might be because a person is religious or comes from some cultural background where such humor is unheard of, or whatever else. It's obviously not worth making the joke if its just going to offend and alienate.


I think one thing which is being overlooked is the fact that she herself tweeted a dick size joke at the same time. The idea that being manly is relative to the size of one's penis is a part of the very machismo which she is criticizing, yet her humor is playing into that. I think making a reference to a penis or the sexual act in and of itself is not patriarchal (even if the conditions under which it is made are patriarchal), while the idea that the man with the big manhood is the biggest man is just oozing patriarchal values.

I don't care at all that she made a penis joke and I'm not trying to draw any kind of equivalence, but there are obviously patriarchal values embedded in her joke. Perhaps as a society we should change our attitude towards Machismo (big men stamina and big dicks are manly and everything a woman would ever want) and it might reduce the environments in which men feel the need to chest bump and make sex jokes to one another.

[#FF0000]

words

Actually the staff spoke to them after the picture was tweeted, and they apologized. (It should have ended there)



I think one thing which is being overlooked is the fact that she herself tweeted a dick size joke at the same time.The idea that being manly is relative to the size of one's penis is a part of the very machismo which she is criticizing, yet her humor is playing into that. I think making a reference to a penis or the sexual act in and of itself is not patriarchal (even if the conditions under which it is made are patriarchal), while the idea that the man with the big manhood is the biggest man is just oozing patriarchal values.

I wouldn't go as far as to say all that. I think the context is the main thing here -- not the jokes themselves.