Anarcho-Communism

[A Pict]

So lets suppose your revolution comes. How the hell does it work? How can an economoy operate without either freedom or control? is there a third choice i am missing?


QUOTE
You are an idiot A Pict. A society that is self sustaining needs niether command nor market. It needs 'need.' It operates through co operation and sharing.


O yes, what a charming generality. Lets suppose me and a bunch of my buddies are all part of the new nifty Red Tractor Factory.

1st- Where the hell do we get the steel?

2nd- What the hell do we do with the tractors after we've made them?

Here's the clincher! Can't use Command- That is a State! Can't use Market- that is freedom! Hows it going to work!

(also your worship of need has some very interesting consquences--look up moral hazard sometime, it is a very interesting concept that many of our policies have to always address

[The Feral Underclass]

I am presuming this thread is just a piece of provocation and that you have no real desire to understand the workings of anarchist-communism.

If I am wrong there is a link here Anarcho-Communism (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/kropotkin/conquest/toc.html), which you can read at your own leisure. If you have questions afterwards feel free to ask.

[Blackberry]

I.4 How could an anarchist economy function? (http://www.infoshop.org/faq/secI4.html)

There's a nice fat and juicy explanation how how an anarcho-communist society could function, including anarcho-collectivism and anarcho-mutualism (the 'market' version of anarchism).

The link also uses practical examples where necessary to back up claims.

I am glad you are so enthusiastic as to want to find out about this. I am sure you will read it in full, until you fully understand what it is about...if you really want to understand it, that is. I hope this thread wasn't created as a piece of provocation.

Naturally, there is no simple explanation to your question, as you have basically no foundation of knowledge on anarchism, and so a shorter explanation is damn near impossible for you to even understand what one is talking about with any real appreciation.

It won't stop other people from trying though...if they want to.

:redstar2000:

[The Feral Underclass]

happy to see you entertaining them.... :lol:

[A Pict]

Read it. The paragraph are thankfully quite short (although repetitive).


This is a rehashed Manifesto. Like it, it still doesn't say how. Which why you gave me a link rather then answer my question, so then upon my reply of "this just says capitalism sucks", you could reply "YOU DIDN"T READ IT!!!111".


So I still have questions. Namely my above mentioned one.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by A [email protected] 5 2004, 11:47 PM
Read it. The paragraph are thankfully quite short (although repetitive).

This is a rehashed Manifesto. Like it, it still doesn't say how. Which why you gave me a link rather then answer my question, so then upon my reply of "this just says capitalism sucks", you could reply "YOU DIDN"T READ IT!!!111".

So I still have questions. Namely my above mentioned one.

Who are you replying to?

I doubt you are replying to me, because I gave you a 40,000 word page to read. 40,000 words takes more than a lot more than an hour and a bit to read and study. That's a little less than what my novel will contain! (I'm currently at 30,000 words, heading for approximately 45,000 to 50,000, but that is always subject to change, because I don't write words for the sake of writing words.)
And I'm quite sure The Anarchist Tension's link takes should take just as long to read as mine.

My link should give you a great understanding of not only anarchist economics, but also anarchism. And it does say how.

Obviously, you are none the wiser. How can I, or anyone, even attempt to answer your questions if you have no idea, no basic foundations, on what anarchism even is? How can you even think of such a question without understanding the structures, the environments, the theory and the practice?

I know what would become of this if it was pursued to your liking; it would degrade into an embroilment. Why bother wasting time?


so then upon my reply of "this just says capitalism sucks", you could reply "YOU DIDN"T READ IT!!!111".

If you didn't read my link, I suggest you read it, because you will be pleasantly surprised to find it doesn't argue that 'capitalism sucks'.


Ahh, we try to help, but in the end, it was just a piece of provocation. What a waste.

:redstar2000:

[Hoppe]

An anarcho-communist society would simply fail because people need to vote the whole day what to do with the collective means.

[ÑóẊîöʼn]

What the fuck? Spit out your sandwhich and say that again!

[Hoppe]

Again?

I quickly read some chapters and most has been refuted. So what is there to discuss?

One of the articles mentions David Schweickart who has done an genuine effort but he is a market socialist, which is not subject of discussion here.

[MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr]

We've been through this song and dance once before already, not all of us are anarchists.

[The Feral Underclass]

A Pict


Read it. The paragraph are thankfully quite short (although repetitive).


This is a rehashed Manifesto. Like it, it still doesn't say how. Which why you gave me a link rather then answer my question, so then upon my reply of "this just says capitalism sucks", you could reply "YOU DIDN"T READ IT!!!111".


So I still have questions. Namely my above mentioned one.


As I suspected, you have absolutly no intention of learning about anarcho-communism. Your questions were answered in excrutiating detail by both links you were provided with. Stop wasting peoples time.

Hoppe


An anarcho-communist society would simply fail because people need to vote the whole day what to do with the collective means.

What are you doing on this board? What is the point of you?!?!?

MiDnIgHtMaRaUdEr


We've been through this song and dance once before already, not all of us are anarchists.

Get out of this thread then...

[A Pict]

Comrade James


Obviously, you are none the wiser. How can I, or anyone, even attempt to answer your questions if you have no idea, no basic foundations, on what anarchism even is? How can you even think of such a question without understanding the structures, the environments, the theory and the practice?


I guessed right i see. You just handed me the standard Excessively Long Winded and Rambling Link that no one reads so your don't have to justify your beliefs.

What, don't YOU understand this trash?

[Misodoctakleidist]

i liked the time 'A Pict' said that a working class person couldn't survive on a dessert island, i asked him what skills he had to aid his survival that a working class person didn't but he never responded.

When someone makes idiotic comments like that it's quite clear that they aren't worth debating with.

[A Pict]

.
What great abilities do you have that would allow to survive?


I can create, and not just say " I either work for person x or starve".

When you take away person x, what will your proletariat do after half of his so-called options are taken away?


2nd page of Why Do You Hate Freedom? thread.

*cough!*

[Misodoctakleidist]

that doesn't explain much, what specificaly would you do? how would you survive? you couldn't create fuck, you've probably never done the slightest bit of work in your life.

[Guest1]

The only thing a capitalist does is deal with money, hire and fire.

How the fuck does that help on a desert island?

As for what happens when you take away the bosses. Well, then I guess every worker will have to wrok together and collectively deal with money and hire and fire. Of course until there is no such thing as money.

[A Pict]

that doesn't explain much, what specificaly would you do?


Do you mean how would i set myself up, like I was talking about sometime online Choose Your Own Adventure? Like whether i would go for the palm leaf kilt or the boar skin loincloth? I'm sorry if i am misjudging excatly what you are talking about, but this has to be the single biggest fucking Red Herring I have ever seen in my life.



you couldn't create fuck, you've probably never done the slightest bit of work in your life.

1st is physical work creation or imitation?

2nd ad hominem. http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html. Learn it. Use it.

[Misodoctakleidist]

lol, you're a joke.

How will you get food? you can't just pick the right person at the lowest cost to get you it.

Where will you take shelter? im sure you couldn't build one.

What will you drink? you can't just exploit a few workers and then buy some evian.

c'mon, what would you do that a working class person is incapable of?

p.s. i'd love to see you hunt and skin a boar, then have the skill to make a loincloth out of it :D :D :D

[A Pict]

As for what happens when you take away the bosses. Well, then I guess every worker will have to wrok together and collectively deal with money and hire and fire.


Ah so i see. Then your workers today DO NOT HAVE THE OPTIONS OF ONLY WORK FOR AN EMPLOYER OR STARVE! You can't have it both ways!


p.s. i'd love to see you hunt and skin a boar, then have the skill to make a loincloth out of it

I don't think you realize I was mocking just how preposterous this line of questioning truly is.

Physical Work is just imitation--- What will the grunts do when there is no to imitate? Those who can create will continue doing so.

I believe we arguing about mental status of workers vrs. those who live by their mind (ie capitalists, etc) as I am certainly not talking about youas if you were a "proletriate". Because hey, if you were a "abused" worker you would be too busy working those 2 jobs you must have *according to you* and certainly wouldn't have enough time to obtain capital, much less argue on a message board, with a computer you don't have, as all you money would have to be spent on food. Or else youll starve. Because that is how much your evil employer pays you.... lol.

[Blackberry]

Originally posted by A [email protected] 6 2004, 10:56 AM
What, don't YOU understand this trash?
Well, if you are going to call it 'trash', it means no level of debate will even convince you.

I don't call capitalism 'trash'. Neither do I call it 'rubbish' nor 'garbage'. I look at it, study it, look at its practice and then make a (logical) conclusion on the ideology, and its different variants.

If you even bothered reading on anarchist economy with the intention of learning, without a foregone conclusion, then you would not call what I provided you as 'Excessively Long Winded and Rambling', because it is very heavy with theory and practical examples. Skimming over it, I see that it takes time to consume.

Have you noticed how no-one has seriously debated your points? It is because you have merely provocated us, like so many before you. It bores me, and I am sure it bores the rest of us.

Do I understand 'this trash'? I sure do, because I took the time (months...years) to study the subject in private, analysing the theory with the practice for myself. In this time, I of course used message boards like Che-Lives to discuss and debate several points, and continue to question what is put in front of me.

I wish you luck in your quest to provocate every socialist/communist/anarchist you come across. I'll be going back to my 'trash' now. :lol:

:redstar2000:

[A Pict]

I don't call capitalism 'trash'. Neither do I call it 'rubbish' nor 'garbage'. I look at it, study it, look at its practice and then make a (logical) conclusion on the ideology, and its different variants

So did I to communist. That was my logical conclusion.




Have you noticed how no-one has seriously debated your points?

Yes actually i have... although i suspect for someone different reasons. Similiar to your reasons for still not giving a quick 1 paragraph on why my example doesn't work, rather the links.

[LSD]

I don't think you actually want an answer to this question, but just in case I'm wrong here it is:

Question:


Lets suppose me and a bunch of my buddies are all part of the new nifty Red Tractor Factory.

1st- Where the hell do we get the steel?

2nd- What the hell do we do with the tractors after we've made them?


Answer:
Allright for this example we presuppose that we are in a anarchist-communist environment in which capitalism has been removed as an economic system. Now basically what you are asking is who is controlling production. The answer is not the 'market' nor the state but the workers themselves. Different workers in different productions communicate with one another to arrange that which they need and to arrange production. Therefore you (as a tractor manufacturer) will communicate to the steel manufacturers that you need a certain amount of steel that is enough to make the amount of tractors that farmers indicated they need. This may seem a bit complex a first glance, but it is actually far simpler than the complex arrangements found in capitalism, basically it is just a matter of information. The farmers inform you, and you inform the steel manufacturers. As to what you do with the tractors, you simply give them to the farmers as previously arranged with them since you only made what they needed. You distribute them as they are needed, which you know because you were told before production. Now obviously this only works in small collectives, but that's the point. Notice that production is not continued for the sake of production or profit, only what is needed is made because it was agreed on in advance. Furthermore, there is no state bureaucracy ordering the workers to create, they themselves agreed to produce a certain amount.

Now in response to the questions you are lible to ask:

1) What if workers refuse to work?

This goes back to the nature of society. Within the anarcho-communist society, every member will have to work. Anarcho-communism does not mean no rules. After all murder will not be permitted. Accordingly neither will not working. Furthermore once workers agree on production they must abide by this, they must also work a certain amount of time.

2) Why should I as a tractor manufacturer agree with the farmers? Why wouldn't I try to make a deal to make less, thereby reducing my work?

Again this is a matter of society and the rules thereof. Within the Anarcho-communist society, you are not signing a contract but understanding that they need that number of tractors, therefore you assent to create them. There is no advantage in producing less, as they will still need them and eventually you will be forced to make up the difference.

3) What is preventing the farmers from lying and claiming to need more tractors than they do?

There would be no point in doing this. Remember this is not capitalism. They would have nothing to do with these extra tractors as since money doesn't exist they can hardly sell them. Nor would they attempt to overproduce food, as since they are already producing enough food for everyone what would they do with the surplus? Again, without capitalism/money there is nothing they can do with this surplus and therefore there is no motivation to lie.

4) What if the farmers need more tractors than my collective (or any accessable area) has steel?

Yes, this is a possibility. In this cirumstance, you are forced to communicate with the steel producers of a neighboring collective. The beauty of the system is that assuming they have the steel to spare, there is no reason that they would refuse to give you some. After all, if they have more than they need, they gain nothing by keeping it (again they cannot sell it without a market economy so if they do not need it, it merely takes up space).

5) Isn't this just a command economy?

No. There is no central planning, no economic controls. Both a command economy and anarcho-communism aim to create a situation in which only what is needed is produced, but the difference is that under a command economy the worker is externally given tasks and directives, much as how in capitalism they are controlled by the owner. Under anarcho-communism, they are merely made aware of what society needs and then can organize themselves. The workers control the means of production as well as the organizations of production.

6) Isn't this just a market economy?

No again. Under capitalism, production is maximized. The aim is to make a profit by producing as much as possible and then selling. This often means artificially increasing demand. Even when it doesn't, a market economy is intrinsically geared towards profit. One sells one's labour to individual capitalists who buy and sell both the products of the labour and the labour itself. The results of this are a system in which a great deal is produced which is not needed but which managed to sell. Under anarcho-communism only that which is needed is produced.

7) What about innovation and invention?

Under anarcho-communism the collective can decide that a certain area needs innovation/technological research, for example such areas as medical research. Once the collective has decided this, this will qualify as a needed production as the society has deemed it so. Unlike in capitalism where the 'market' decides, here the individuals themselves choose what they want explored. Furthermore within the workers themselves they can decide to allow one of their members to work on invention instead of a certain amount of actual labour. This is the point of having the workers control themselved. While they still must work a certain amount of time, they can organize themselves and can set aside individuals to work on improvement. Therefore you end up with the people who know the industry in question best improving it.

8) What if there is a far greater demand for one resource over the rest, wouldn't those workers have to work harder than the others?

This is where the advantage of anarcho-communism shines through. Because the workers themselves control their production, they will be the ones to deal with this as they are the ones most effective. One likely solution would be to increase the number of workers in this field. The producers woulc open up their ranks, whereas if they are producing significantly less they will close them.

9) Doesn't this mean that people will not be absolutely free to choose a labour?

Yes it does. But this is to be expected. After all if every member of society chose to make tractors, there would be no doctors. Therefore it may happen that certain jobs be closed as they have filled up. However in average times, for the average person the majority of jobs will still be open. And they will have far more choices, and far freeer choices than under capitalism in which they are forced to choose the job that "pays the best."

10) Can this really work?

I certainly think so.


Whew....that was long. Allright there is your answer in full A Pict, I hope you will actually read it.

"We undertake to give you the use of our houses, stores, streets, means of transport, schools, museums, etc., on condition that, from twenty to forty-five or fifty years of age, you consecrate four or five hours a day to some work recognised as necessary to existence. Choose yourself the producing group which you wish to join, or organise a new group, provided that it will undertake to produce necessaries. And as for the remainder of your time, combine together with whomsoever you like, for recreation, art, or science, according to the bent of your taste . . . Twelve or fifteen hundred hours of work a year . . . is all we ask of you. For that amount of work we guarantee to you the free use of all that these groups produce, or will produce." [The Conquest of Bread, pp. 153-4]

[Guest1]

Well, LSD has covered it pretty well. I never knew you were an Anarcho-Communist my friend. I thought you were merely a Democratic Communist, welcome surprise.

I do have one more thing to add. You do have the choice of not working in Anarcho-Communist society, and still having respect from all. What would happen? You wouldn't be allowed to share in the collective's labour, or product. You can't ask for their food, their wines, their clothing, their tractors, nothing. You would have to work on your own plot of land, unharrassed. So long as you provided for yourself, no one would look down upon you for it.

The result though is, you have the choice, but who would want it?

[LSD]

Yah, my views have evolved over time.....

and yes of course you can choose to refrain from joining an anarcho-communist society, which is more than you can say for capitalism. The difference is that anarcho-communism is intrinsically self-sustaining, whereas capitalism needs to keep recruiting just to keep itself afloat.

[Guest1]

yep, give me a call comrade, you seem to have really taken to the site. I've seen you online continuously for hours :P I suspect you find it as addictive as I do :)

[Don't Change Your Name]

Wow...great reply