Larry Miller on Israel

[D'Anconia]

Whosoever Blesses Them
The intifada and its defenders.
by Larry Miller



Larry Miller, contributing humorist

I WAS WATCHING Greta Van Facelift on Fox the other night, and she and her guests made me talk back to the TV. Shout back, actually. Nothing witty or trenchant, you understand, just something like, "Oh, come on!" Now, to be honest, it was late, and I was downstairs alone, and I was a little, what's the word . . . loaded, yes, that's the word. I was a little shined up. A little spiffed and a little miffed, and I shouted something and angrily turned off the remote. I don't know exactly how angrily a remote can be turned off, but as angrily as you can push a pfennig-sized piece of round plastic, that's how angrily I did it. Then I walked back to the bar, made myself one-for-the-stairs (as opposed to one-for-the-road) and read some P.G. Wodehouse to restore my cheery nature. But back to the freshly-tightened Greta.

Her guests were (INSERT INDISTINGUISHABLE ARAB NAME), from Hamas, and their attorney, Stanley Cohen. No, that's not a joke. Would that it were. Stanley Cohen, the attorney for Hamas. Check that handle again: Stanley Cohen. I mean, if you tried to make up a better name than that, you couldn't do it. Let's give it a shot, though, shall we? Irving Lefkowitz. Nah, too obvious. Lew Fishman. No, no, sounds like a carpet salesman. Isaac Bashevis Singer? Now I'm reaching. Nope, you just can't beat good ol' Stan Cohen. Yes, Stanley Cohen, folks, a hard-left, righteously indignant true-believer, an honors graduate from the William Kunstler School of Just-Not-Getting-It-And-Never-Will, who had flown all the way from New York to sit next to his wonderful client over there in not the land of milk and honey. Stanley Cohen. A man who, if he listened very carefully, would no doubt hear voices in the next room planning to blow the eyes out of more of his nieces and nephews. Stanley Cohen, and even typing that name right now and remembering this horrible man damning his own people again and again and again, I crack a nervous smile, because they're my people, too, and, God help me, if I didn't laugh, I think I might cry.

Oddly enough, out of the three of them, the homunculus from Hamas didn't bother me at all. I mean, if you think about it, why should he bother any American? We know exactly who he is and, in a way, we should be grateful for that. Because if we're only willing to absorb their own words--nevermind their demonic deeds--he and his brethren have a perfectly uncomplicated point of view and agenda, and their clarity should give us our own clarity, and wouldn't that be refreshing? You want us dead? Well, now, isn't that a funny coincidence. Guess what we want?

My point is, if American TV calls up and wants to put these philanthropists on, who could blame them for saying, "Sure!" I can just see them bursting out laughing and slapping each other on the back. ("They're going to put us on Fox TV! I told you terror works! And I'll bet their Green Room beats the snot out of Al Jazeera. I mean, please, how many olives can you eat?") If we're stupid enough to do that, I don't blame them for taking us up on it. All they have to do is take a few minutes away from packing rusty nails around the C4, pick one of their guys who looks, relatively, the least like a vicious scumbag, borrow a suit, and send him forth to smile for the cameras. With Stanley Cohen.

But let's leave the newly-stretched Greta for a moment, as well as our friends Stanley and Ishmael (no joke, his real name). A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don't get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don't thank me. I'm a giver. Here we go:

The Palestinians want their own country. There's just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It's a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let's not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they're being taped. Instead, let's call them what they are: "Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that's a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."

Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don't. They could've had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That's no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course--that's where the real fun is--but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel--or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it--for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they're the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God's Earth, and if you've ever been around God's Earth, you know that's really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I'm missing something, the Arabs haven't given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshalling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it's in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can't be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who've just had their drugs taken away. However, in any big-picture strategy, there's always a danger of losing moral weight. We've already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that's actually not such a bad id . . . uh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)

There's bad news on the losing moral weight front, and the signs are out there. Last week, the day after Secretary Powell left on his mission (whatever that was), the Los Angeles Times ran its lead editorial in one hundred percent support of the trip and the pressure he and President Bush were putting on Israel. Here's a good rule of thumb: If the Los Angeles Times thinks you're doing a great job, everything you're doing is wrong, stupid and mortally dangerous. If they think everything you're doing is wrong, stupid and mortally dangerous, you're doing a great job, and, in fact, your chances are probably very good for getting on the fast track for sainthood.

So, now, back to Greta. You know what made me mad enough to shout? You might not even think it was that big a thing.

After the show she said to these guys, "Thank you, gentlemen, for being my guests." "Gentlemen." "Guests." "My guests." That's what it's come to with these non-judgmental hosts and hostesses. Nice, huh? "Thank you, Mr. Stalin, sir, for being so gracious in giving us your valuable time." "My eternal gratitude, Chairman Mao, for taking precious moments away from your splendid Five-Year Plan and visiting with us in this most convivial way."

And I winced, and grunted, and shouted. Oh, yeah, and made that drink.

I mean, please, folks. In 1941, did reporters feel it was their duty to give equal time to Hitler and Hirohito? Would Stanley Cohen have represented them? Ok, Stanley probably would have, but would any American have stood still while he told us about it?

[canikickit]

It was Stalin who had a five year plan.

[D'Anconia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 12:00 AM
It was Stalin who had a five year plan.
Yes, of course. And we all know how difficult it is to confuse the policies of Mao and Stalin.

Miller is not a historian. Yeah, he made a mistake. Does that by itself discount the rest of his column? I don't think so.

[D'Anconia]

I don't understand why this topic was moved. I posted it with no commentary or analysis. I simply offered the column without entering into any discussion.

[canikickit]

I was simply making the point that the information wasn't correct. I don't care about the excuses.

I moved the thread because the ideas expressed in it are opposed to what the general aims of the Politics forum are. It's quite simple.

[D'Anconia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 12:28 AM
I was simply making the point that the information wasn't correct. I don't care about the excuses.

I moved the thread because the ideas expressed in it are opposed to what the general aims of the Politics forum are. It's quite simple.
The Israeli-Arab conflict is not relevant to international politics?

[(*]

He makes the claim that Palestine is not a country, and there are no such thing as Palestinians. Yet he fails to realize that prior to 1945, Israel was not a country, and there was no such thing as an Israeli.


Another thing, the land has been called Palestine for a long time. Even Balfour wrote about Etablishing a jewish homeland...in palestine.
Remember, British Mandate Palestine

Everyone living there (including both Jewish and Arab), are called Palestinians.

[D'Anconia]

Everyone living there (including both Jewish and Arab), are called Palestinians.

So then you admit that there is no "Palestinian" race/nation.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by (*@Jan 5 2004, 12:36 AM


Everyone living there (including both Jewish and Arab), are called Palestinians.
So its both jews and arabs land.
By the way why cant the muslims just live in peace with the jews in Israel? I know, because they hate jews and want them dead.

[Pete]

I read the first few paragraphs.. this isn't even funny. It's moronic.


So then you admit that there is no "Palestinian" race/nation.

No, he quite clearly said there is a palestinian nation, I don't know how you missed it. It just goes beyond religion, or should. There are christian, muslim, and jewish palestinians, but a great majority of the Israelis, it seems, are jewish. And the actions of the Israelis are hardly those of a nation looking for peace. Both sides perpetuate violence.

[canikickit]

Originally posted by D&#39;Anconia+Jan 5 2004, 12:35 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (D&#39;Anconia @ Jan 5 2004, 12:35 AM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 12:28 AM
I was simply making the point that the information wasn&#39;t correct. I don&#39;t care about the excuses.

I moved the thread because the ideas expressed in it are opposed to what the general aims of the [i]Politics forum are. It&#39;s quite simple.
The Israeli-Arab conflict is not relevant to international politics? [/b]
I didn&#39;t say that. See for yourself above.

The reason there is an Opposing Ideologies forum is so that we can keep discussion more clear. The other forums are designed for discussion between people with generally quite radical left wing ideas. If the topic is going to centre around someone&#39;s expression of right wing ideals the discussion takes place in the right wing ideals part of the building.

It&#39;s quite simple.



el_profe]So its both jews and arabs land.

Correct. Jews and Arabs are also known as people.


why cant the muslims just live in peace with the jews in Israel? I know, because they hate jews and want them dead.

Interesting rethorical question. Did you ever think about this one; why can&#39;t the state of Israel just live in peace with the Palestinians in the place they&#39;ve lived for their lives? I know, {insert irrational premise here}.

You will notice that I&#39;ve merely turned your question and answer around slightly. I hope you notice the changes that I did make and their importance. For example, it&#39;s not only Muslims who oppose the Israeli state&#39;s actions and the support of those actions by the US.

http://www.voy.com/121228/35.html - US Christian Coalition torment Palestinian Christians

http://www.arabia.com/news/article/english...7,32645,00.html (http://www.arabia.com/news/article/english/0,11827,32645,00.html) - Palestinian Christians beside Muslims in Intifada

There is no logical reason why people of Jewish backgrounds should have priority claims on land. I wouldn&#39;t like it if an Irish-American came over here and kicked me out of my home, because it was his "rightful homeland". Someone living in the US wouldn&#39;t like it if a member of the Sioux tribe came strolling into their house and asked them to leave.

[el_profe]

Interesting rethorical question. Did you ever think about this one; why can&#39;t the state of Israel just live in peace with the Palestinians in the place they&#39;ve lived for their lives? I know, {insert irrational premise here}.

You will notice that I&#39;ve merely turned your question and answer around slightly. I hope you notice the changes that I did make and their importance. For example, it&#39;s not only Muslims who oppose the Israeli state&#39;s actions and the support of those actions by the US.

There is no logical reason why people of Jewish backgrounds should have priority claims on land. I wouldn&#39;t like it if an Irish-American came over here and kicked me out of my home, because it was his "rightful homeland". Someone living in the US wouldn&#39;t like it if a member of the Sioux tribe came strolling into their house and asked them to leave.
????????????? yet most on this board Native american indians to have their land back, you probably have said USA companies did not have a right to have land they bought in Cuba?, Israel was first formed 11 centuries B.C. so its not like they where first formed in 1947.


Why arent you *****ing about all the muslim states next to israel???? Like Iran, Saudi Arabia, the talibans that controlled afghanistan. Or the other countries full of muslims???
The fact is muslims hate jews, no matter if they are in the USA, in Europe or in Israel. If they didnt hate jews why did the arab league start a war against Israel right after it was formed when Israel barley had an army????

[synthesis]

The reason the article belongs in OI is for two reasons.

1. It is opinion. There is hardly a fact to be found in the whole piece, and where they appear, they are often wrong. It is not the least bit informative. Therefore, it does not belong in Politics.

2. The opinion it takes is decidedly conservative. Therefore, it belongs in OI.

Not too hard, is it?

Enough about that. Here&#39;s a better article. Much more factual.



Zionist practitioners of the Hitlerian “Big Lie” strategy would have you believe that all the Israeli state terrorism of today is merely a reaction to Palestinian suicide bombings. They say that first the Palestinians started the suicide attacks for some perverse reason, though it was not at all in their self-interest, and only then did the “heroic” and “restrained” Israeli military react. That is a bald-faced lie.

Precisely the opposite is true. Anyone with even a little intelligence and honesty can see that the Israelis have the overwhelming power to be the aggressors, and that they are the aggressors. They are backed militarily, politically and financially by the world’s greatest superpower. They have billions of dollars worth of weapons, all paid for by American taxpayers. Not only do the Israelis have many state-of-the-art jet fighters, tanks and attack helicopters, they even have three submarines carrying missiles with nuclear warheads.

The latest Intifada began when the Israelis first provoked the Palestinians at the Al-Aqsa mosque, and then brutally, massively terrorized them with their powerful military. Suicide bombings are the desperate reactions of despairing individuals to this ongoing Israeli state terrorism.

On September 28, 2000, the evil old butcher, Ariel Sharon, made a well-planned, provocative little “visit” to the Al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem — accompanied by a thousand heavily-armed Israeli troops. (All authorized by Prime Minister Barak.) This touched off a spontaneous riot among the Palestinians who were there, during which six Palestinian people were shot dead by the Israelis.

Imagine Adolf Hitler paying a little visit to the Wailing Wall accompanied by a thousand Nazi storm troopers who then shoot dead six Jews, and you’ll get an idea of what this event meant to the long-suffering Palestinians.

Tragically, as Sharon hoped, many Palestinians couldn’t resist falling into the trap. The Al-Aqsa provocation was intended to create an angry reaction from Palestinians who could bear no more abuse. As expected, the renewed Intifada protests provided Israel with the propaganda it needed to launch an escalating state terror campaign. When Israeli troops shot more and more Palestinians dead just for protesting or throwing rocks at tanks or even just for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, some of the most despairing Palestinians began to take revenge with suicide bombs. That gave the Israelis the excuse to shoot dead yet more Palestinian children, which motivated more suicide bombings, which brought more Israeli tanks and attack helicopters to slaughter more Palestinian men, women and children. Just what Sharon wanted.

[...]

So the Jewish Hitler’s Al-Aqsa ploy succeeded, and since September 2000 the sadistic Israeli Army (falsely named the Israeli “Defense” Forces), together with violent gangs of psychopathic Israeli thugs who call themselves “settlers”, have launched a massive state terror campaign, including several full-blown military assaults on the largely unarmed Palestinian people. The Israelis have slaughtered innocent people all over the West Bank and Gaza, with the biggest massacres so far occurring in Gaza and the Jenin refuge camp in the West Bank.

During this latest terror campaign the Israelis have brutally murdered over 2,180 people, as of this writing, including hundreds of children, and injured over 22,000, many severely.

Thousands of Palestinian people have suffered serious physical and/or neurological injuries requiring long-term health care, after having been shot or bombed by the Israelis. But the Israelis have surrounded all Palestinian villages and blocked all exits, refusing to allow those with severe injuries to get medical help outside.

That tiny minority of Palestinians in the militias and police forces who have guns have fought back, and many have died, while the others have only rocks to throw before they die, and a few, out of total despair, have become suicide bombers. They have two choices: live and die in freedom, or live for awhile as miserable slaves while being already dead inside.

“Live free or die&#33;” said the men and women of the American Revolution. They would have understood the Palestinian people. But what the Palestinians have gone through, for over half-a-century now, is a thousand times more brutal.

Even so, I could never condone suicide attacks if they kill innocent civilian people. To murder innocent people is to lower oneself to the level of the Israelis. But I have no experience to compare with the level of hardship and suffering the Palestinian people are going through. We who live our sheltered lives in America have no idea. Unless we’ve been through something very similar, for as long a time, we can’t really fathom the depth and intensity of what the Palestinians feel.

Imagine, what would you do if a viciously racist foreign military force assaulted your town and slaughtered your children, your brothers, sisters, mother, maybe your father, grandfather, or grandmother, your husband, wife or your best friend? What if you saw the soldiers laugh after they blew up your sister, making fun of her bloody, disfigured face? What if they raped your brother’s wife after murdering her husband or father because he tried to stop them? What if you had to bury your six-month-old baby because an Israeli bullet ripped through its tiny little fragile body? What if they beat and tortured you and your father and brother, and sneered insults at you as they urinated on you?

All these things, and much more, the satanic Israelis have done. Again and again and again and again. For many decades, since long before you were born, if you’re a young Palestinian.

Can you really imagine what you would feel like? Would you even be strong enough to stay sane? And what if these filthy devils got away with it year after year after year, and it looked like the whole stinking world didn’t give a damn whether you lived or died? And these invaders had tanks and helicopter gunships and F-16 jets, and you had nothing but rocks. And they’ll shoot you if you throw it. They’ll shoot you if you don’t throw it. They’ll shoot you when you’re standing by your window or your front door. They’ll shoot you when you walk outside to get food at the store, even after they say they’ve lifted their curfew which has kept you starving inside cramped little rooms for days on end with scores of other hungry, suffering people. If you see a tank when you go out for food you’ll have to run back and hide, because the dirty Israeli cowards in that tank will murder you for the crime of being a Palestinian human being.

They’ll even shoot you when you’re sleeping in your bed. Firing right through the walls with heavy-gauge ammo. They’ve done it to many people already, even little children. It could be an Israeli sniper, or an Israeli tank round that comes ripping through the wall, or a missile from an Apache helicopter gunship that rips through the ceiling and explodes, splattering everyone, your loved ones, into bloody bits. And with so many of your friends and family dead and suffering unbearably, the only hope you have is to make the Israelis pay a little bit, make the devils taste just a little bit of the horror they’ve been inflicting on you and your whole nation for decades. All your life. All your life you’ve never known anything but vicious, murderous oppression by the filthy Israelis.

You might become a suicide bomber too. And I might too.

And yet it obviously does no good at all. Quite the opposite. Suicide bombings are exactly what Ariel Sharon wants. They provide the Zionist Wehrmacht with all the propaganda it could possibly hope for to escalate Israeli state terrorism. Ariel Sharon absolutely LOVES suicide bombers&#33; They make his twisted little inhuman mind feel so smugly justified about his bloody lifetime of murdering innocent human beings. Worst of all, they practically do his “Greater Israel” work for him. If suicide bombers didn’t exist, Ariel Sharon would have to invent them.

The fundamental military fact of life in Palestine is that the Israelis have absolutely all the high cards. It is tanks and Apache helicopter gunships vs. slingshots, literally, in many cases. A modern-day match between David and Goliath if ever there was one, and of course this time around, the Israelis are the brutish Goliath. (And may history repeat itself, right between the eyes.) But so far, Goliath is beating the hell out of David, and any Arab nation that would dare to rescue their Palestinian brothers and sisters would have to deal with the fact that Israel has three submarines armed with ballistic missiles that have nuclear warheads. On top of that, they’re backed up by The World’s Lone Remaining Superpower. Internationally, Israel is like a snotty little brat in the schoolyard who can push everybody around because he’s backed up by the biggest bully on the block.

It’s about as unequal a contest as it could possibly be, and yet the Zionist-controlled mass-media always presents it as if it was almost even. Every Palestinian suicide attack simply hands helpful propaganda to the bogus “news” media, and hands the Israelis a blank check to butcher three times as many Palestinian men, women and children, to deport more innocent Palestinians, to arrest, imprison and torture hundreds more Palestinians, to bulldoze yet more Palestinian homes as old women cry in despair.

Carnage makes Ariel happy. No matter whose blood it is, he wins either way. With every attack, the suicide bombers make his dream of “Greater Israel” a little closer to realization.

But by far the most important thing is this: a suicide attack might kill somebody who is innocent. A precious little Jewish child is innocent, as is a precious little Palestinian child. Obviously many beautiful human beings of all ages and every culture in the Middle East are innocent. Murdering and crippling innocent people has been the trademark of the Israelis from the beginning. No good can come from lowering oneself to their level. As a nation, the Palestinians are much braver, they are psychologically stronger, more resilient, enduring and tougher by far than the steadily decaying Israelis. I think the Palestinians are capable of seizing the moral high ground too. If they did, they would enjoy a spiritual nourishment more powerful than all the evil weapons in the world.

[(*]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 09:35 PM



????????????? yet most on this board Native american indians to have their land back, you probably have said USA companies did not have a right to have land they bought in Cuba?, Israel was first formed 11 centuries B.C. so its not like they where first formed in 1947.

How many countries in existence today, were around during that time (11 centuries B.C., would be what...over a thousand years ago).

You know what, lets go back to the times of Mesopotamia, Aramaean rule. Bring back the greek and roman empires (and have the existing countries today, fall under their rule).


Why arent you *****ing about all the muslim states next to israel???? Like Iran, Saudi Arabia, the talibans that controlled afghanistan.

That is not what this thread is about. I have no loyalty, or respect for either Iran, "Saudi" Arabia, or the Taliban controlled Afghanistan.


The fact is muslims hate jews, no matter if they are in the USA, in Europe or in Israel. If they didnt hate jews why did the arab league start a war against Israel right after it was formed when Israel barley had an army????


Riiiight. So america started a war against afghanistan and Iraq. Is it because America hates Afghans, Iraqis, and Muslims? According to your logic, that is the case.

The wars were fought over land, nothing more.

[Liberty Lover]

(*

Another thing, the land has been called Palestine for a long time. Even Balfour wrote about Etablishing [sic] a jewish [sic] homeland...in palestine [sic].
Remember, British Mandate Palestine

Everyone living there (including both Jewish and Arab), are called Palestinians.

The Romans changed the region’s name to Palestine from Judea in order to “de-Judaize” it following the suppression of the Jewish revolts in 70 C.E. and 135 C.E. The name “Palestine” was derived form the earlier coastal inhabitants, the Philistines.

DyerMaker

The latest Intifada began when the Israelis first provoked the Palestinians at the Al-Aqsa mosque, and then brutally, massively terrorized them with their powerful military. Suicide bombings are the desperate reactions of despairing individuals to this ongoing Israeli state terrorism.

This comment sums up brilliantly your ignorance of the conflicts history.

When Arafat turned down the offer of the Israeli Prime Minister Ahud Barak at the 2000 Camp David negotiations that would have given the Palestinians 95% of the West Bank, the entire Gaza strip, Jerusalem, the Temple mount and US&#036;30 billion dollars in compensation, he made it all to clear that his desired path was one of bloodshed and that his goal was the destruction of Israel.

Sharon’s visit to the Temple Mount was simply used as an excuse by Arafat for his ordering of the escalation of suicide bombings. This scenario is similar to that surrounding the Austrian invasion of Serbia in 1914, where the Austrians used the assassination of crown prince Franz Ferdinand as a pretext for their long held ambition of crushing the Serb nationalist movement that threatened to unify the Balkans against the Austro-Hungarian Empire.

Prince Bandor of Saudi Arabia predicted the consequences of Arafat’s actions when he plead with him at Camp David, “You have only two choices. Either you take this deal or we go to war”. Bandor has since labelled Arafat’s decision as a “crime against the Palestinians- in fact, against the entire region”. I couldn’t have said it better myself.

To make it so blindingly clear that even a stoner like you should understand, Arafat’s communications minister stated, “The Palestinian Authority began to organize for the outbreak of the intifada since its return from the Camp David negotiations, by request of Yasser Arafat”.


During this latest terror campaign the Israelis have brutally murdered over 2,180 people, as of this writing, including hundreds of children, and injured over 22,000, many severely.

How convenient of you to ignore the fact that among this number were hundreds of suicide bombers, bomb makers, terrorist leaders and alleged collaborators who were actually killed by other Palestinians.

You have also “forgotten” to mention that over 800 innocent Israelii civilians have been killed. A number that would have been much higher had the IDF not thwarted up to 80% of attempted suicide attacks.

But most importantly the innocent Palestinian deaths were the unintended consequence of Israel’s effort to eliminate the terrorist networks within Gaza and the West Bank as part of their attempt to end a war started by Arafat. In contrast, the innocent Israeli deaths were the result of the deliberate targeting of a civilian population by callous terrorists with no purpose but the elimination of all Jews.


As a nation, the Palestinians are much braver, they are psychologically stronger, more resilient, enduring and tougher by far than the steadily decaying Israelis. I think the Palestinians are capable of seizing the moral high ground too. If they did, they would enjoy a spiritual nourishment more powerful than all the evil weapons in the world.

After beginning with a display of ignorance, you have chosen to end with a demonstration of blatant racism. Your sweeping generalisations go against the necessity that each person be judged on their own merits, not on the merits of the racial group from whence they came. What is it about Palestinians that make them somehow more “capable”- i.e. superior- than Jews?

On the contrary, history reveals that the determination of the majority of Jews to make something of Palestine far exceeded that of the majority of Arabs.

Before the First Aliyah in 1880 the already extremely low number of Arabs living in Palestine (most of whom were Bedouin and Egyptian rather than Palestinian) was dwindling significantly. However, with the arrival of Jewish refugees fleeing persecution in Europe (encouraged by Arab leaders who accurately predicted their arrival would better the situation) Arab numbers flourished. This fact can be attributed to the improved healthcare, water supply and sanitation that the Jews brought with them, cutting infant mortality rates, increasing life expectancy and all but eliminating malaria. Additionally, the newly cultivated land provided the Arabs with many lucrative employment opportunities.

The Jewish immigrants turned a desolate and near uninhabited expanse of land into a prosperous and modernised series of towns and communities. By the time of the U.N. partition in 1947 the Jews were a majority, not just in Jerusalem, but also in the entire partitioned zone. They outnumbered the Arabs (of which the Palestinians were still a minority) by hundreds of thousands.

PS: If you’re wondering why I have not responded to your post in its entirety it is because it contains, for the most part, nothing but ad hominem drivel and emotionally charged arguments substantiated by no facts whatsoever. Do yourself a favour and research an issue before taking such a dogmatic stance on it.

[Intifada]

By the way why cant the muslims just live in peace with the jews in Israel? I know, because they hate jews and want them dead.

yet again el profe, i have to tell you that you are a racist scumbag. shut the fuck up. the israelis are persecuting the arabs. some (note: SOME) muslims will therefore obviously loathe jews.


You have also “forgotten” to mention that over 800 innocent Israelii civilians have been killed.

they are illegal settlers, they are not innocent.

you forget to mention the fact that israel occupies palestinians, controls its water and electricity supplies, destroys palestinian homes, make checkpoints and roadblocks to humiliate and destroy the palestinian economy, is building a wall which has been condemned by the un, broken more un resolutions than saddam etc, etc.

below is the result of israeli terrorism.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 04:56 PM

By the way why cant the muslims just live in peace with the jews in Israel? I know, because they hate jews and want them dead.

yet again el profe, i have to tell you that you are a racist scumbag. shut the fuck up. the israelis are persecuting the arabs. some (note: SOME) muslims will therefore obviously loathe jews.


LOL. what a great religion, they tell 18 yr olds strap a bomb and go into a public place with kids, elderly, teens and adults and set the bomb off. :lol: :lol: :lol:

The ISraelis are persecuting arabs????? lol, how about every nation around Israel that hates jews and wants to destroy israel. Why would the Arab League want to attack Israel right after it was formed?????

This has nothing to do with rascism, it has to do with supporting people who kill thousand of innnocent people, and support terrorism. Why would they put bomb&#39;s on planes, hijack planes, put bombs in public places, all this by mostly using suicide bombers.

Look at the black people in south africa they where being occupied and they where oppressed. But I never saw or Ive never heard of a suicide bombings...

The bottom line is most muslims, and every muslim in the middle east hates jews. Doestn matter if those jews are in Israel , Usa, Europe... And they hate to se Israel be much more succesfull than their crappy nations so of course they want Israel. Most of the anti-semitism comes from jealously.
So please stop supporting these terrorist, hamas , and all those other fcked up groups. If most muslims would not support these terrorist, they would also want an end to these groupds so peacefull negotiations can go on with Israel. BUT THEY DONT WANT PEACEFULL negotiations they want to wipe out jews from the planet.

[(*]

Look at the black people in south africa they where being occupied and they where oppressed. But I never saw or Ive never heard of a suicide bombings...


Did you know that apartheid south africa was supported by Israel?

[Intifada]

LOL. what a great religion, they tell 18 yr olds strap a bomb and go into a public place with kids, elderly, teens and adults and set the bomb off.

islam doesnt teach this you stupid prat&#33; you are sooooo ignorant its unbelievable.


The ISraelis are persecuting arabs?????

yes they are. if you cannot accept this fact there isnt any point in debating this topic.


This has nothing to do with rascism, it has to do with supporting people who kill thousand of innnocent people, and support terrorism. Why would they put bomb&#39;s on planes, hijack planes, put bombs in public places, all this by mostly using suicide bombers.

it&#39;s about an illegal occupation of the palestinian people.


Look at the black people in south africa they where being occupied and they where oppressed. But I never saw or Ive never heard of a suicide bombings...

"The South African apartheid regime never engaged in the sort of repression Israel is inflicting on the Palestinians. For all the evils and atrocities of apartheid, the government never sent tanks into black towns. It never used gunships, bombers, or missiles against the black towns or Bantustans. The apartheid regime used to impose sieges on black towns, but these sieges were lifted within days. Soldiers used to search homes and conduct a variety of punitive measures, but none of these can be compared with Israel&#39;s repressive actions, and its siege of entire towns and villages for months on end."
-Ronnie Kasrils, Jewish leader of the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa; currently a minister in South Africa’s government (interview with Yehia Ghanem, published in Al-Ahram, 28 March – 3 April, 2002).


So please stop supporting these terrorist

i dont support israel.

el profe you are obviously racist and should be banned from che-lives.

[synthesis]

This comment sums up brilliantly your ignorance of the conflicts history.

I didn&#39;t write it. I don&#39;t support a great deal of what it says.

It was proportionately as factual as the other article. It was simply a counter, nothing more. The guy who wrote it is a bit of a fanatic and has adopted somewhat anti-Semitic tones in his writing as of late, rambling about the Jewish plutocracy.

Regardless, thank you for your counter-argument.

[Germanator]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 04:56 PM

LOL. what a great religion, they tell 18 yr olds strap a bomb and go into a public place with kids, elderly, teens and adults and set the bomb off. :lol: :lol: :lol:

In order to have a bad religion you&#39;d need a "good" one to compare it to. There are none that I can think of, so perhaps you could offer one for me to shoot down in a torrent of historical facts.


The ISraelis are persecuting arabs?????

Yes they are.


lol, how about every nation around Israel that hates jews and wants to destroy israel.

Because Israel persecutes Palestinians, which in turn produces a huge number of refugees that burden these nations economically.


Why would the Arab League want to attack Israel right after it was formed?????

Because it was formed from OTHER PEOPLE&#39;S HOMES...WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT.


This has nothing to do with rascism, it has to do with supporting people who kill thousand of innnocent people, and support terrorism.

Wrong. This has everything to do with racism and nothing to do with terrorism. Seriously, why else would be attributing terrorism SOLELY to Islam, when the vast majority of terrorist attacks against the US take place in Latin America, and the vast majority of terrorist attacks all over the world come from America. Face it. You are a racist, perpetuating a false perception of millions of people who would just as much like to see the killing stop as any other sane human being.


Why would they put bomb&#39;s on planes, hijack planes, put bombs in public places, all this by mostly using suicide bombers.

"They"? Excuse me, but you are attributing the beliefs of few to the majority. By your logic, ALL white people must burn crosses on black people&#39;s property because that&#39;s what the KKK does.


Look at the black people in south africa they where being occupied and they where oppressed. But I never saw or Ive never heard of a suicide bombings...

That&#39;s because you&#39;ve got your head so far up your ass that lump in your throat is your goddamn nose. There IS violence in South Africa, and there WAS an armed movement against Apartheid.



The bottom line is most muslims, and every muslim in the middle east hates jews.

No, the bottom line is that you are an idiot making sweeping generalizations and providing no factual evidence to back it up. Where&#39;s your surveys, polls, pie charts, and graphs? NOWHERE. You mere spewing forth your perverted, twisted opinions and attempting, albeit poorly, to pass them off as fact. Nice try, but the "because I said so" excuse lost its effect on me when I was in grammar school.


Doestn matter if those jews are in Israel , Usa, Europe... And they hate to se Israel be much more succesfull than their crappy nations so of course they want Israel.

Successful, how? Egypt&#39;s purchasing power is over TWICE that of Israel&#39;s, and ALL of her surrounding countries boast a POSITIVE growth rate as opposed to Israel&#39;s NEGATIVE. Israel&#39;s "success" comes directly from the the US giving it lots of gadgets.


So please stop supporting these terrorist, hamas , and all those other fcked up groups.

What defines a "terrorist"? One who attacks a civilian population for political reasons. Shit, that sounds a lot like the Mossad to me. How about YOU stop supporting the terrorists?


If most muslims would not support these terrorist, they would also want an end to these groupds so peacefull negotiations can go on with Israel. BUT THEY DONT WANT PEACEFULL negotiations they want to wipe out jews from the planet.

Time for a reality check, bucko. Peace was accepted until the Israelis decided to assassinate Rabin and screw everything to hell.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 06:07 PM

LOL. what a great religion, they tell 18 yr olds strap a bomb and go into a public place with kids, elderly, teens and adults and set the bomb off.

islam doesnt teach this you stupid prat&#33; you are sooooo ignorant its unbelievable.






Islam does not teach this???? Well then some muslims are lying to all these terrorist because most of them do it in the name of their god or for their religion.
Then islam is being misused by the palestinians in Iran in Saudi Arabia ... because they teach the kids to hate jews.


it&#39;s about an illegal occupation of the palestinian people.
What illegal occupation, because jews want to live their. IF the palestinians wanted to make a country their why werent they doing it or pressing for it 100 years ago??? Besides both jews and muslims lived in that land.



"The South African apartheid regime never engaged in the sort of repression Israel is inflicting on the Palestinians. For all the evils and atrocities of apartheid, the government never sent tanks into black towns. It never used gunships, bombers, or missiles against the black towns or Bantustans. The apartheid regime used to impose sieges on black towns, but these sieges were lifted within days. Soldiers used to search homes and conduct a variety of punitive measures, but none of these can be compared with Israel&#39;s repressive actions, and its siege of entire towns and villages for months on end."
-Ronnie Kasrils, Jewish leader of the anti-apartheid struggle in South Africa; currently a minister in South Africa’s government (interview with Yehia Ghanem, published in Al-Ahram, 28 March – 3 April, 2002).
Thats because the black never started doing suicide bombings. Look at the difference between Mandela and that terrorist Arafat. Mandela did it the right way he didnt order or praised sucide bombings like the terrorist Arafat. Are you now going to tell me Arafat is not a terrorist??



So please stop supporting these terrorist

i dont support israel.

el profe you are obviously racist and should be banned from che-lives.

No you dont , but you support the palestinian suicide terrorist. Why dont the palestinians try peacefull negotiations for once, because they cant cause hamas and all those other groups dont allow it.

Why Am i rascist???? when did I say a hate muslims.

I do not hate muslims but I hate terrorist whether they are white, muslims,
Is it coincidence that most of the suicide bombinsg in USA embassys, the hijacking of Israeli and other airlines, the recent bombins in turkey, all the suicide bombings in Israel, 9-11, the terrorist in the philipines, the taliban, hamas, al-queda....is/where all done/formed by muslims.

AND IF THEY HATE ISRAEL AND NOT JEWS, then why is their anti-semitism against jews in Europe by muslims.??


ALSO WHY did the ARAB LEAGUE ATTACK ISRAEL RIGHT AFTER IT WAS FORMED??

Why dont the native americans start using suicide bombings? they where killed, sent to camps and are being occupied by the USA, the same goes for why the Ukranians didnt use suicide bombings against the USSR when they where being occupied?? or why didnt East berliners use suicide bombings against the USSR, why didnt japanese people use suicide bombings or tried to attack the USA when they where occupied? and Israel is not even occupying that territory, Israel accepts people from all religious and races the fact that muslims dont want to accept jews and cant live with them is theri problem.

[(*]

Israeli terror organizations in the 40s were the first to blow up buses, and hotels etc...

[el_profe]

Originally posted by (*@Jan 6 2004, 01:59 AM
Israeli terror organizations in the 40s were the first to blow up buses, and hotels etc...
you mean in 41 or 42 or 43 or 44 or 45 or 46 or 47????? they where formed in 1948 immidetly attacked by the arab league, so they didnt have time to start bombing buses... Besides

Please can you show me info on this?????

[Germanator]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 02:05 AM

you mean in 41 or 42 or 43 or 44 or 45 or 46 or 47????? they where formed in 1948 immidetly attacked by the arab league, so they didnt have time to start bombing buses... Besides

Please can you show me info on this?????
Wrong again, dipstick. The Jews created terrorist organizations first, and were aimed at the British. Perhaps you should crack open a history book and read about how the Jews bombed the King David Hotel, but judging by your track record, history doesn&#39;t concern you all that much...and apparently neither does proper English.

[D&#39;Anconia]

Maybe the Palestinians do have a point. I mean just take a look at this. The Muslims just want a place to live after all.

http://www.protestwarrior.com/images/posters/sign_24.jpg

[D&#39;Anconia]

The reason there is an Opposing Ideologies forum is so that we can keep discussion more clear. The other forums are designed for discussion between people with generally quite radical left wing ideas. If the topic is going to centre around someone&#39;s expression of right wing ideals the discussion takes place in the right wing ideals part of the building.

So then what you&#39;re saying here is that leftists should not be burdened with discussing so-called "right wing ideals." If the leftists are so weak-minded that they cannot even discuss a column that does not line up with their ideals on every point they must be more narrow-minded than they want to let on. You people are incessantly talking about having a dialogue when it comes to issues such as the war in Iraq, but when someone you disagree with tries to have a discussion you turn a deaf ear. You whine at your anti-war protests about debate and openness, but when it comes right down to it you really want nothing more than to brainwash naive young adults by feeding them a steady stream of your own dogma.

It is quite simple.

You want to keep discussion one-sided not clear. Leftists want cult-followers not thoughtful advocates.

I posted the column without any commentary of my own. It was removed before any real discussion was allowed to happen. For all you know some of the people who are not censored from posting on that forum may have wanted to discuss it, but I suppose now we will never know.

[Germanator]

That would be very witty if it&#39;s basic assumption, that Islam is a culture, weren&#39;t a steaming pile of horse droppings. Palestinians have a national identity, just as Iraqis, Iranians, or Turks do. Your little quip is like saying that if Protestants took over France, it&#39;s no big deal because the French could always move to Italy because all Catholics are the same.

[D&#39;Anconia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 03:31 AM
That would be very witty if it&#39;s basic assumption, that Islam is a culture, weren&#39;t a steaming pile of horse droppings. Palestinians have a national identity, just as Iraqis, Iranians, or Turks do. Your little quip is like saying that if Protestants took over France, it&#39;s no big deal because the French could always move to Italy because all Catholics are the same.
The picture is a little bit off topic, I will admit. But the point it makes is valid. What reaon does the entire Muslim world have to hate Israel so virulently? Even if the Palestinians do have a complaint(debateable at best), what right does that give Saudi Arabia or Iraq to wish for the extermination of all things Jewish?

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 11:59 PM
In order to have a bad religion you&#39;d need a "good" one to compare it to. There are none that I can think of, so perhaps you could offer one for me to shoot down in a torrent of historical facts.

How about none are good.



The ISraelis are persecuting arabs?????

Yes they are.
How, where muslims never allowed in Israel?? yes they where.



lol, how about every nation around Israel that hates jews and wants to destroy israel.
Because Israel persecutes Palestinians, which in turn produces a huge number of refugees that burden these nations economically.

Why would the Arab League want to attack Israel right after it was formed?????
Because it was formed from OTHER PEOPLE&#39;S HOMES...WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT.

No, the war happened right after Israel was formed so Israel didnt even have time to start this "persecution" because they where attacked. And the USA has accepted refugess from conglicts in central america and I dont see americans attacking central america. In Africa you also have all these refugees yet the countries accepting them does not go to war against the other countries.

here. i got this from this link: http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761558.../Palestine.html (http://encarta.msn.com/encyclopedia_761558705/Palestine.html)
"After 1928, when Jewish immigration increased somewhat, British policy on the subject seesawed under conflicting Arab-Jewish pressures. Immigration rose sharply after the installation (1933) of the Nazi regime in Germany; in 1935 nearly 62,000 Jews entered Palestine. Fear of Jewish domination was the principal cause of the Arab revolt that broke out in 1936 and continued intermittently until 1939. By that time Britain had again restricted Jewish immigration and purchases of land. The struggle for Palestine, which abated during World War II, resumed in 1945. The horrors of the Holocaust produced world sympathy for European Jewry and for Zionism, and although Britain still refused to admit 100,000 Jewish survivors to Palestine, many survivors of the Nazi death camps found their way there illegally. Various plans for solving the Palestine problem were rejected by one party or the other. Britain finally declared the mandate unworkable and turned the problem over to the United Nations in April 1947. The Jews and the Palestinians prepared for a showdown.

Although the Palestinians outnumbered the Jews (1,300,000 to 600,000), the latter were better prepared. They had a semiautonomous government, led by David Ben-Gurion, and their military, the Haganah, was well trained and experienced. The Palestinians, on the other hand, had never recovered from the Arab revolt, and most of their leaders were in exile. The Mufti of Jerusalem, their principal spokesman, refused to accept Jewish statehood. When the UN proposed partition in November 1947, he rejected the plan while the Jews accepted it. In the military struggle that followed, the Palestinians were defeated. Terrorism was used on both sides.

The state of Israel was established on May 14, 1948. Five Arab armies, coming to the aid of the Palestinians, immediately attacked it. Israeli forces defeated the Arab armies, and Israel enlarged its territory. Jordan took the West Bank of the Jordan River, and Egypt took the Gaza Strip.


The war produced 780,000 Palestinian refugees. About half probably left out of fear and panic, while the rest were forced out to make room for Jewish immigrants from Europe and from the Arab world. The disinherited Palestinians spread throughout the neighboring countries, where they have maintained their Palestinian national identity and the desire to return to their homeland. In 1967, during the Six-Day War between Israel and neighboring Arab countries, Israel captured the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, as well as other areas." You see after the war came the refugees.


Wrong. This has everything to do with racism and nothing to do with terrorism. Seriously, why else would be attributing terrorism SOLELY to Islam, when the vast majority of terrorist attacks against the US take place in Latin America, and the vast majority of terrorist attacks all over the world come from America. Face it. You are a racist, perpetuating a false perception of millions of people who would just as much like to see the killing stop as any other sane human being.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF ATTACKS ON THE USA take place in Latin America? :o :o :o :lol: :lol: give one or two examples. I lived in latin america for 18 years and never saw any attack on any country in latin america.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF TERRORISM COMES FROM AMERICA, like the USA&#39;s suicide bombers, like bombing USA embasys in Africa, like the 2 bombings that took place in turkey just recently, like the panam flight(i think it was muslim extremist), like 9-11, like the attacks in the philipibnes by that terrorist Islamic group, Liket the killing of Israeli athletes in the 76(i think maybe 72), olympics like most of the plane hijackings ... Im a rascist why cause I (and any rational human being) points out that most terrorist attacks comes from muslims.


"They"? Excuse me, but you are attributing the beliefs of few to the majority. By your logic, ALL white people must burn crosses on black people&#39;s property because that&#39;s what the KKK does.
yes they, the terrorist.


That&#39;s because you&#39;ve got your head so far up your ass that lump in your throat is your goddamn nose. There IS violence in South Africa, and there WAS an armed movement against Apartheid.
hahaha, how original. Yes but never suicide bombings.



The bottom line is most muslims, and every muslim in the middle east hates jews.

No, the bottom line is that you are an idiot making sweeping generalizations and providing no factual evidence to back it up. Where&#39;s your surveys, polls, pie charts, and graphs? NOWHERE. You mere spewing forth your perverted, twisted opinions and attempting, albeit poorly, to pass them off as fact. Nice try, but the "because I said so" excuse lost its effect on me when I was in grammar school.

:o :o , sweeping generalizations, the sad part is that it is true. Most of them dont hate israel and jews?? :o :o , its not my problem that you cant see that ro choose not to see it.



Doestn matter if those jews are in Israel , Usa, Europe... And they hate to se Israel be much more succesfull than their crappy nations so of course they want Israel.

Successful, how? Egypt&#39;s purchasing power is over TWICE that of Israel&#39;s, and ALL of her surrounding countries boast a POSITIVE growth rate as opposed to Israel&#39;s NEGATIVE. Israel&#39;s "success" comes directly from the the US giving it lots of gadgets.
Its economically better off than almost if not every country in the middle east. IF IT BENEFITS FROM THE USA GIVING IT MONEY , why didnt latin america benefit from that????? they received money and the gov&#39;s received free money and weapons to fight guerillas.


How about YOU stop supporting the terrorists?
NO, Isnt weird that the UN wanted to give both the Palestines and Israel part of the land but the palestines didnt want that??? Jews also lived in that land. And Israel was attacked first they are just defending themselves and they sometimes need to go on the attack to defend themselves.


Time for a reality check, bucko. Peace was accepted until the Israelis decided to assassinate Rabin and screw everything to hell. reality check? thats what you need.

[Intifada]

Islam does not teach this???? Well then some muslims are lying to all these terrorist because most of them do it in the name of their god or for their religion.
Then islam is being misused by the palestinians in Iran in Saudi Arabia ... because they teach the kids to hate jews.

no islam doesnt teach this. give me a quote from the qur&#39;an or hadith showing it does. the terrorists arent muslims, muslims are told not to harm anyone or thing in the world. so yes it is being misused, but so are a lot of religions.


What illegal occupation, because jews want to live their.

omg&#33; :rolleyes: this takes the fucking piss out of the whole debate&#33;


Thats because the black never started doing suicide bombings.

they did use violence.


Are you now going to tell me Arafat is not a terrorist??

he WAS a terrorist. if you want to label people as terrorists, talk about the biggest one (IN MANY WAYS&#33;): ariel sharon&#33;


No you dont , but you support the palestinian suicide terrorist.

i support the RESISTANCE.


Why dont the palestinians try peacefull negotiations for once

they have&#33;


Why Am i rascist????

LOL :lol:


when did I say a hate muslims.


FUCKING HELL&#33; :) :D :lol: :lol:


AND IF THEY HATE ISRAEL AND NOT JEWS, then why is their anti-semitism against jews in Europe by muslims.??

sharon&#39;s racist policies play a massive part in this.

[Intifada]

many survivors of the Nazi death camps found their way there illegally.

el profe, you say that the israelis dont persecute the palestinians? yes they fucking well do&#33;

what do you call occupation, the demolition of palestinian homes, the cutting off of water and electricity, the roadblocks and checkpoints, the raids on refugee camps etc etc etc?


NO, Isnt weird that the UN wanted to give both the Palestines and Israel part of the land but the palestines didnt want that???

isnt it weird that israel has defied more than 69 un resolutions????????

[Intifada]

QUOTE (ihatebush @ Jan 5 2004, 04:56 PM)

yo germanator, i did not quote that. that was el profe. please edit it.

[Germanator]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 06:26 AM





How about none are good.

Then you really have no place criticizing it as a religion. Afterall, if all religions are bad then what the fundamentalists do shouldn&#39;t really surprise you.


How, where muslims never allowed in Israel?? yes they where.

They are only allowed into certain parts. 42,000 Palestinians are crammed into a ghetto in Qalqilya. A wall surrounds the ghetto, complete with armed guard towers to monitor the one entrance/exit of the city.

Israel purposefully sent Jewish settlers into Palestinian settlements in order to "breed" them out.

In retaliation to the bombing on Christmas day, resulting in the death of four Israelis, the Israeli military killed 117 Palestinians, injured hundreds, and left thousands without homes. But according to you, that isn&#39;t persecution.

Palestinians are rounded into ghettos, isolated from their families and occupations, treated as second-class citizens, all while Israel wants to build a wall to keep the Palestinians out. Sounds like Apartheid to me.


No, the war happened right after Israel was formed so Israel didnt even have time to start this "persecution" because they where attacked. And the USA has accepted refugess from conglicts in central america and I dont see americans attacking central america. In Africa you also have all these refugees yet the countries accepting them does not go to war against the other countries.

Are you incapable of following simple premises? Israel was created without the consent of the people who were there FIRST, thus they were attacked. I offer you this situations: The Amer-Indians who once occupied the land on which you now live want it back and want you to leave. Are you going to let them?


THE VAST MAJORITY OF ATTACKS ON THE USA take place in Latin America? :o :o :o :lol: :lol: give one or two examples. I lived in latin america for 18 years and never saw any attack on any country in latin america.
THE VAST MAJORITY OF TERRORISM COMES FROM AMERICA, like the USA&#39;s suicide bombers, like bombing USA embasys in Africa, like the 2 bombings that took place in turkey just recently, like the panam flight(i think it was muslim extremist), like 9-11, like the attacks in the philipibnes by that terrorist Islamic group, Liket the killing of Israeli athletes in the 76(i think maybe 72), olympics like most of the plane hijackings ... Im a rascist why cause I (and any rational human being) points out that most terrorist attacks comes from muslims.

"Terrorism" as defined by the US government: premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

Automatically, those who are killing US soldiers in Iraq are NOT terrorists, so we can count them out of the equations.

Patterns of Global Terrorism, 1999, US State Department:

Of 169 anti-US attacks reported in 1999, Latin America accounted for 96, Western Europe for 30, Eurasia for nine, Africa for sixteen, and the Middle East for eleven.

These attacks take the form of bombings and kidnappings perpetrated by left-wing radicals and right-wing paramilitary groups in Columbia and Peru, which remain the most dangerous countries for Americans to visit. Unless you have some information that proves the US&#39;s own study on terrorism wrong, stop passing off racist opinions as facts.


hahaha, how original. Yes but never suicide bombings.

That was a rather lackluster method of attempting to avoid taking responsibility for saying something so obviously incorrect. The bombings weren&#39;t suicidal, therefore they don&#39;t count as terrorism? Oh, how original. Perhaps you&#39;d like to tell that to the families of those that died when the ANC bombed Magoo&#39;s Bar.



:o :o , sweeping generalizations, the sad part is that it is true. Most of them dont hate israel and jews?? :o :o , its not my problem that you cant see that ro choose not to see it.

No, the sad part about it is that you think that it is true. You have no evidence to support your claims, and the burden of proof is on you.


Its economically better off than almost if not every country in the middle east. IF IT BENEFITS FROM THE USA GIVING IT MONEY , why didnt latin america benefit from that????? they received money and the gov&#39;s received free money and weapons to fight guerillas.

Latin America didn&#39;t benefit because along with the money it recieved came a slew of corrupt dictators who pocketed the change and started knocking off everyone who said anything about it.


How about YOU stop supporting the terrorists?reality check? thats what you need.

Emoticons don&#39;t make an argument. Congratulations, your response did absolutely jack to rebuke my argument.

[AmericanZionist2004]

Originally posted by D&#39;[email protected] 4 2004, 11:44 PM
Whosoever Blesses Them
The intifada and its defenders.
by Larry Miller



Larry Miller, contributing humorist

I WAS WATCHING Greta Van Facelift on Fox the other night, and she and her guests made me talk back to the TV. Shout back, actually. Nothing witty or trenchant, you understand, just something like, "Oh, come on&#33;" Now, to be honest, it was late, and I was downstairs alone, and I was a little, what&#39;s the word . . . loaded, yes, that&#39;s the word. I was a little shined up. A little spiffed and a little miffed, and I shouted something and angrily turned off the remote. I don&#39;t know exactly how angrily a remote can be turned off, but as angrily as you can push a pfennig-sized piece of round plastic, that&#39;s how angrily I did it. Then I walked back to the bar, made myself one-for-the-stairs (as opposed to one-for-the-road) and read some P.G. Wodehouse to restore my cheery nature. But back to the freshly-tightened Greta.

Her guests were (INSERT INDISTINGUISHABLE ARAB NAME), from Hamas, and their attorney, Stanley Cohen. No, that&#39;s not a joke. Would that it were. Stanley Cohen, the attorney for Hamas. Check that handle again: Stanley Cohen. I mean, if you tried to make up a better name than that, you couldn&#39;t do it. Let&#39;s give it a shot, though, shall we? Irving Lefkowitz. Nah, too obvious. Lew Fishman. No, no, sounds like a carpet salesman. Isaac Bashevis Singer? Now I&#39;m reaching. Nope, you just can&#39;t beat good ol&#39; Stan Cohen. Yes, Stanley Cohen, folks, a hard-left, righteously indignant true-believer, an honors graduate from the William Kunstler School of Just-Not-Getting-It-And-Never-Will, who had flown all the way from New York to sit next to his wonderful client over there in not the land of milk and honey. Stanley Cohen. A man who, if he listened very carefully, would no doubt hear voices in the next room planning to blow the eyes out of more of his nieces and nephews. Stanley Cohen, and even typing that name right now and remembering this horrible man damning his own people again and again and again, I crack a nervous smile, because they&#39;re my people, too, and, God help me, if I didn&#39;t laugh, I think I might cry.

Oddly enough, out of the three of them, the homunculus from Hamas didn&#39;t bother me at all. I mean, if you think about it, why should he bother any American? We know exactly who he is and, in a way, we should be grateful for that. Because if we&#39;re only willing to absorb their own words--nevermind their demonic deeds--he and his brethren have a perfectly uncomplicated point of view and agenda, and their clarity should give us our own clarity, and wouldn&#39;t that be refreshing? You want us dead? Well, now, isn&#39;t that a funny coincidence. Guess what we want?

My point is, if American TV calls up and wants to put these philanthropists on, who could blame them for saying, "Sure&#33;" I can just see them bursting out laughing and slapping each other on the back. ("They&#39;re going to put us on Fox TV&#33; I told you terror works&#33; And I&#39;ll bet their Green Room beats the snot out of Al Jazeera. I mean, please, how many olives can you eat?") If we&#39;re stupid enough to do that, I don&#39;t blame them for taking us up on it. All they have to do is take a few minutes away from packing rusty nails around the C4, pick one of their guys who looks, relatively, the least like a vicious scumbag, borrow a suit, and send him forth to smile for the cameras. With Stanley Cohen.

But let&#39;s leave the newly-stretched Greta for a moment, as well as our friends Stanley and Ishmael (no joke, his real name). A brief overview of the situation is always valuable, so as a service to all Americans who still don&#39;t get it, I now offer you the story of the Middle East in just a few paragraphs, which is all you really need. Don&#39;t thank me. I&#39;m a giver. Here we go:

The Palestinians want their own country. There&#39;s just one thing about that: There are no Palestinians. It&#39;s a made up word. Israel was called Palestine for two thousand years. Like "Wiccan," "Palestinian" sounds ancient but is really a modern invention. Before the Israelis won the land in war, Gaza was owned by Egypt, and there were no "Palestinians" then, and the West Bank was owned by Jordan, and there were no "Palestinians" then. As soon as the Jews took over and started growing oranges as big as basketballs, what do you know, say hello to the "Palestinians," weeping for their deep bond with their lost "land" and "nation." So for the sake of honesty, let&#39;s not use the word "Palestinian" any more to describe these delightful folks, who dance for joy at our deaths until someone points out they&#39;re being taped. Instead, let&#39;s call them what they are: "Other Arabs From The Same General Area Who Are In Deep Denial About Never Being Able To Accomplish Anything In Life And Would Rather Wrap Themselves In The Seductive Melodrama Of Eternal Struggle And Death." I know that&#39;s a bit unwieldy to expect to see on CNN. How about this, then: "Adjacent Jew-Haters."

Okay, so the Adjacent Jew-Haters want their own country. Oops, just one more thing. No, they don&#39;t. They could&#39;ve had their own country any time in the last thirty years, especially two years ago at Camp David. But if you have your own country, you have to have traffic lights and garbage trucks and Chambers of Commerce, and, worse, you actually have to figure out some way to make a living. That&#39;s no fun. No, they want what all the other Jew-Haters in the region want: Israel. They also want a big pile of dead Jews, of course--that&#39;s where the real fun is--but mostly they want Israel. Why? For one thing, trying to destroy Israel--or "The Zionist Entity" as their textbooks call it--for the last fifty years has allowed the rulers of Arab countries to divert the attention of their own people away from the fact that they&#39;re the blue-ribbon most illiterate, poorest, and tribally backward on God&#39;s Earth, and if you&#39;ve ever been around God&#39;s Earth, you know that&#39;s really saying something. It makes me roll my eyes every time one of our pundits waxes poetic about the great history and culture of the Muslim Mideast. Unless I&#39;m missing something, the Arabs haven&#39;t given anything to the world since Algebra, and, by the way, thanks a hell of a lot for that one.

Chew this around and spit it out: Five hundred million Arabs; five million Jews. Think of all the Arab countries as a football field, and Israel as a pack of matches sitting in the middle of it. And now these same folks swear that if Israel gives them half of that pack of matches, everyone will be pals. Really? Wow, what neat news. Hey, but what about the string of wars to obliterate the tiny country and the constant din of rabid blood oaths to drive every Jew into the sea? Oh, that? We were just kidding.

My friend Kevin Rooney made a gorgeous point the other day: Just reverse the numbers. Imagine five hundred million Jews and five million Arabs. I was stunned at the simple brilliance of it. Can anyone picture the Jews strapping belts of razor blades and dynamite to themselves? Of course not. Or marshalling every fiber and force at their disposal for generations to drive a tiny Arab state into the sea? Nonsense. Or dancing for joy at the murder of innocents? Impossible. Or spreading and believing horrible lies about the Arabs baking their bread with the blood of children? Disgusting. No, as you know, left to themselves in a world of peace, the worst Jews would ever do to people is debate them to death.

Mr. Bush, God bless him, is walking a tightrope. I understand that with vital operations coming up against Iraq and others, it&#39;s in our interest, as Americans, to try to stabilize our Arab allies as much as possible, and, after all, that can&#39;t be much harder than stabilizing a roomful of supermodels who&#39;ve just had their drugs taken away. However, in any big-picture strategy, there&#39;s always a danger of losing moral weight. We&#39;ve already lost some. After September 11 our president told us and the world he was going to root out all terrorists and the countries that supported them. Beautiful. Then the Israelis, after months and months of having the equivalent of an Oklahoma City every week (and then every day) start to do the same thing we did, and we tell them to show restraint. If America were being attacked with an Oklahoma City every day, we would all very shortly be screaming for the administration to just be done with it and kill everything south of the Mediterranean and east of the Jordan. (Hey, wait a minute, that&#39;s actually not such a bad id . . . uh, that is, what a horrible thought, yeah, horrible.)

There&#39;s bad news on the losing moral weight front, and the signs are out there. Last week, the day after Secretary Powell left on his mission (whatever that was), the Los Angeles Times ran its lead editorial in one hundred percent support of the trip and the pressure he and President Bush were putting on Israel. Here&#39;s a good rule of thumb: If the Los Angeles Times thinks you&#39;re doing a great job, everything you&#39;re doing is wrong, stupid and mortally dangerous. If they think everything you&#39;re doing is wrong, stupid and mortally dangerous, you&#39;re doing a great job, and, in fact, your chances are probably very good for getting on the fast track for sainthood.

So, now, back to Greta. You know what made me mad enough to shout? You might not even think it was that big a thing.

After the show she said to these guys, "Thank you, gentlemen, for being my guests." "Gentlemen." "Guests." "My guests." That&#39;s what it&#39;s come to with these non-judgmental hosts and hostesses. Nice, huh? "Thank you, Mr. Stalin, sir, for being so gracious in giving us your valuable time." "My eternal gratitude, Chairman Mao, for taking precious moments away from your splendid Five-Year Plan and visiting with us in this most convivial way."

And I winced, and grunted, and shouted. Oh, yeah, and made that drink.

I mean, please, folks. In 1941, did reporters feel it was their duty to give equal time to Hitler and Hirohito? Would Stanley Cohen have represented them? Ok, Stanley probably would have, but would any American have stood still while he told us about it?
That&#39;s hysterical. Many people thought Dennis Miller wrote that brilliant piece.

[AmericanZionist2004]

Originally posted by D&#39;[email protected] 6 2004, 03:28 AM
The reason there is an Opposing Ideologies forum is so that we can keep discussion more clear. The other forums are designed for discussion between people with generally quite radical left wing ideas. If the topic is going to centre around someone&#39;s expression of right wing ideals the discussion takes place in the right wing ideals part of the building.

So then what you&#39;re saying here is that leftists should not be burdened with discussing so-called "right wing ideals." If the leftists are so weak-minded that they cannot even discuss a column that does not line up with their ideals on every point they must be more narrow-minded than they want to let on. You people are incessantly talking about having a dialogue when it comes to issues such as the war in Iraq, but when someone you disagree with tries to have a discussion you turn a deaf ear. You whine at your anti-war protests about debate and openness, but when it comes right down to it you really want nothing more than to brainwash naive young adults by feeding them a steady stream of your own dogma.

It is quite simple.

You want to keep discussion one-sided not clear. Leftists want cult-followers not thoughtful advocates.

I posted the column without any commentary of my own. It was removed before any real discussion was allowed to happen. For all you know some of the people who are not censored from posting on that forum may have wanted to discuss it, but I suppose now we will never know.
I think you&#39;re absolutely right. It goes like this. We won&#39;t clog up their other forums, so let us post in this one. And if you want to debate us, don&#39;t shut us up.

[Germanator]

I know it must be hard for you to use simple logic. But is goes like this:

Leftist A and Leftist B favor different political ideologies. Conservatives A, B, and C waltz in and take the discussion completely off topic by making both leftists stop their discussion to defend the basic tennets of their beliefs rather than dissect the more complicated ones.

It has nothing to do with shutting you up- if that were the case, this forum would not exist and you would be banned- it has to do with allowing others the freedom to discuss what they want without being interrupted.

[el_profe]

"Terrorism" as defined by the US government: premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

Automatically, those who are killing US soldiers in Iraq are NOT terrorists, so we can count them out of the equations.

Patterns of Global Terrorism, 1999, US State Department:

Of 169 anti-US attacks reported in 1999, Latin America accounted for 96, Western Europe for 30, Eurasia for nine, Africa for sixteen, and the Middle East for eleven.

These attacks take the form of bombings and kidnappings perpetrated by left-wing radicals and right-wing paramilitary groups in Columbia and Peru, which remain the most dangerous countries for Americans to visit. Unless you have some information that proves the US&#39;s own study on terrorism wrong, stop passing off racist opinions as facts.

I guess anytime a tourist gets killed they consider it as terrorism. As for bombings in any US embassys I dont remember their being any in latina america. Besides this isw stupid cause it does not show who has been doing does anti-US attacks, in the bombings in Afirca (the USA embasys) it was muslims, 9-11.
And just what they do TO ISRAELI CIVILIANS is an attrocity and that you support them for killing kids and other civilians is just unimaginable. BUT SINCE YOUR heroes are mao,stalin and castro, it really shouldnt surprise me you support these terrorist.
These numbers also do not show the number of people killed by those attacks and attacks made by muslims have killed much more.
AND HOW DO YOU JUSTIFY THE RECENT BOMBINGS IN TURKEY, what are the british and turks also persecuting muslims????


They are only allowed into certain parts. 42,000 Palestinians are crammed into a ghetto in Qalqilya. A wall surrounds the ghetto, complete with armed guard towers to monitor the one entrance/exit of the city.

Israel purposefully sent Jewish settlers into Palestinian settlements in order to "breed" them out.

In retaliation to the bombing on Christmas day, resulting in the death of four Israelis, the Israeli military killed 117 Palestinians, injured hundreds, and left thousands without homes. But according to you, that isn&#39;t persecution.

Palestinians are rounded into ghettos, isolated from their families and occupations, treated as second-class citizens, all while Israel wants to build a wall to keep the Palestinians out. Sounds like Apartheid to me.
BUT WHY DID THIS STARING HAPPENING??? because Israeli civilians where being killed by the terrorist.


Are you incapable of following simple premises? Israel was created without the consent of the people who were there FIRST, thus they were attacked. I offer you this situations: The Amer-Indians who once occupied the land on which you now live want it back and want you to leave. Are you going to let them?

WHO was their first?? jews have been in that land since , i dont know since when but Israel was first formed 11 centuries BC so who was theri first??
If Indians want to buy my land sure Ill give it to them if not , no.


Latin America didn&#39;t benefit because along with the money it recieved came a slew of corrupt dictators who pocketed the change and started knocking off everyone who said anything about it.

Yes, And how many other nations have been helped by the USA, Israel actually used the money they got wisely, and besides even with all the money they got it takes more than just receiving some donations to become the most economically succesfull country in the middle east.

[D&#39;Anconia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 01:18 AM
I know it must be hard for you to use simple logic. But is goes like this:

Leftist A and Leftist B favor different political ideologies. Conservatives A, B, and C waltz in and take the discussion completely off topic by making both leftists stop their discussion to defend the basic tennets of their beliefs rather than dissect the more complicated ones.

It has nothing to do with shutting you up- if that were the case, this forum would not exist and you would be banned- it has to do with allowing others the freedom to discuss what they want without being interrupted.
Logic is simple, but it does not seem to be used by the mods on this board. I did not interrupt any discussion with my post nor did I cause anyone to take to defending the basic tenets [note the spelling of this word]of their beliefs. I simply offered the article as a topic of discussion. That is why I posted it in both forums. I had no intention of entering into any discussion in the other thread. I simply was curious as to how the leftists on the board would react to and discuss the article. You rant incessantly about how capitalists do not know or discuss the other side of the issues, but you have now proved that you are no better. It is completely unreasonable to expect those in opposition to your views to be well-versed in your ideology when you do not require the same of yourselves.

Your implication that I am not intelligent enough to use simple logic is a personal attack. This was uncalled for as I did not attack anyone on this board personally. Also, your own attempt at an analogy has nothing to do with a logical premise or conclusion. It is a statement of a hypothetical situation that you regard as some sort of absolute that applies to any situation with similar circumstances. The situation you described can best be described as an assumption. I will concede that it has some basis in reality, but it can certainly not be applied as a universal truth.

[D&#39;Anconia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 01:28 AM
I read the first few paragraphs.. this isn&#39;t even funny. It&#39;s moronic.


So then you admit that there is no "Palestinian" race/nation.

No, he quite clearly said there is a palestinian nation, I don&#39;t know how you missed it. It just goes beyond religion, or should. There are christian, muslim, and jewish palestinians, but a great majority of the Israelis, it seems, are jewish. And the actions of the Israelis are hardly those of a nation looking for peace. Both sides perpetuate violence.
Actually, he qite clearly said: "Everyone living there (including both Jewish and Arab), are called Palestinians."

If Jews and Arabs are both Palestinians, using the term Palestinian to describe a nation is a contrivance.

You are correct to say that both sides are violent , but that is an oversimplification. The "Palestinians" (I use quotation marks only to avoid confusion between the Jewish and Arab Palestinians) send people with bombs strapped to their chests into crowded marketplaces and stores where they know that women and children will be present and completely unprepared and unable to defend themselves. The Israelis send unmistakeable soldiers into areas where there is known terrorist activity. Anyone who does not wish to become a casualty can desist with the stone-throwing and get out of the way of the huge tank rolling down the street. If the "Palestinians" did not want this kind of thing to happen they could refuse to harbor known terrorists in their midst. If you cannot see the difference between a military action in which civilians are unintended casualties and an act of cowardice that intentionally targets defenseless women and children than I think you have a problem.
To equate the Israelis and the "Palestinians" as equals in bloodshed is a gross oversimplification. To use your logic, the American soldiers who liberated Western Europe were no better than Hitler because some civilians were killed by both. They both killed so neither was any better than the other.

[synthesis]

Logic is simple, but it does not seem to be used by the mods on this board. I did not interrupt any discussion with my post nor did I cause anyone to take to defending the basic tenets [note the spelling of this word]of their beliefs.

We do not have the time or the desire to sort through these things on a case-by-case basis. There have been capitalists who proved themselves to be rational, intelligent people that were allowed to post throughout the entire forum before. We haven&#39;t had one of those in a long time, though. Who knows? You could be the next one.

If you want to get on our good side, you can stop being a spelling Nazi and trying to pull stuff like this:


Your implication that I am not intelligent enough to use simple logic is a personal attack. This was uncalled for as I did not attack anyone on this board personally. Also, your own attempt at an analogy has nothing to do with a logical premise or conclusion. It is a statement of a hypothetical situation that you regard as some sort of absolute that applies to any situation with similar circumstances. The situation you described can best be described as an assumption. I will concede that it has some basis in reality, but it can certainly not be applied as a universal truth.

This paragraph made me laugh out loud. Way to go, Socrates. You have completely obscured and evaded the argument Germanator provided by attempting to apply a load of metaphysical nonsense to what is a rather simple scenario.

We want to discuss the specifics. It&#39;s hard to do this when we have people who mostly don&#39;t even know the basics but take to rabidly attacking us anyways. Is this really such a difficult concept?

[D&#39;Anconia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 7 2004, 03:49 AM

Logic is simple, but it does not seem to be used by the mods on this board. I did not interrupt any discussion with my post nor did I cause anyone to take to defending the basic tenets [note the spelling of this word]of their beliefs.

We do not have the time or the desire to sort through these things on a case-by-case basis. There have been capitalists who proved themselves to be rational, intelligent people that were allowed to post throughout the entire forum before. We haven&#39;t had one of those in a long time, though. Who knows? You could be the next one.

If you want to get on our good side, you can stop being a spelling Nazi and trying to pull stuff like this:


Your implication that I am not intelligent enough to use simple logic is a personal attack. This was uncalled for as I did not attack anyone on this board personally. Also, your own attempt at an analogy has nothing to do with a logical premise or conclusion. It is a statement of a hypothetical situation that you regard as some sort of absolute that applies to any situation with similar circumstances. The situation you described can best be described as an assumption. I will concede that it has some basis in reality, but it can certainly not be applied as a universal truth.

This paragraph made me laugh out loud. Way to go, Socrates. You have completely obscured and evaded the argument Germanator provided by attempting to apply a load of metaphysical nonsense to what is a rather simple scenario.

We want to discuss the specifics. It&#39;s hard to do this when we have people who mostly don&#39;t even know the basics but take to rabidly attacking us anyways. Is this really such a difficult concept?

It is not difficult at all . But why is it not possible for someone with whom you may disagree to offer something as a topic for discussion?

I did not attack anyone, rabidly or otherwise. I simply offered that article as a topic of discussion.

As for my last paragraph, I was attacked personally for not having the intelligence to use logic. The situation used to prove this point was simple, yes, but it did not use logic either. That is all I was trying to say.

More name-calling I see. Nice. -_-

[Intifada]

:huh: el profe, why havent you responded to my argument?

[el_profe]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 05:10 PM
no islam doesnt teach this. give me a quote from the qur&#39;an or hadith showing it does. the terrorists arent muslims, muslims are told not to harm anyone or thing in the world. so yes it is being misused, but so are a lot of religions.

I already did in another post last year, search for it if you want.
But here is some more:


The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land....(Quran; Surah 5:33)

...beware of them lest they seduce you from some part of that which Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away know that Allah&#39;s will is to sm te them...(Quran; Surah 5:49)

...Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who takes them for friends is one of them. Lo&#33; Allah guids not these wrongdoing people. (Quran Surah 5:51)

3:82. Those who reject this (Quranic prophecy) are the evil ones

Surah 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure,"

Surah 2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits...And slay them wherever ye catch them. And turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution is worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more persecution. And the religion becomes Allah&#39;s. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"

Surah 9:38-39 "O ye who believe&#33; What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things,"

Sura 9:5 "And when the sacred months are passed, kill those who join other gods with God wherever ye shall find them; and seize them, besiege them, and lay wait for them with every kind of ambush: but if they shall convert, and observe prayer, and pay the obligatory alms, then let them go their way, for God is gracious, merciful.

I dont remember the bible or the torah ever saying anything about a war against those who do not believe, or calling for a war against those who do not believe.


Their is no illegall occupation, jews lived their thousand of years ago with muslims, but when jews dicided to make a country the muslims where outraged??


he WAS a terrorist. if you want to label people as terrorists, talk about the biggest one (IN MANY WAYS&#33;): ariel sharon&#33;

No, Israel acts on self-defence, and of course innocent people are going to get killed.



No you dont , but you support the palestinian suicide terrorist.

i support the RESISTANCE.
And that resistance is a violent one.



AND IF THEY HATE ISRAEL AND NOT JEWS, then why is their anti-semitism against jews in Europe by muslims.??

sharon&#39;s racist policies play a massive part in this.
????? That doe snot make sense. SO YOU ADMIT THAT THEY DONT SEE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN JEWS AND ISRAEL. You know i know some germans, I think Im going to kill them since Hitler was german (that is what they are doing)

So by your thinking, People who are against the War should go out and beat the shit out of americans because Bush invaded Iraq. Hmm, Im going to kill russians cause they tried to invade afghanistan and I was agaisnt that , by your thinking that would be justified (me killing a russian because of the actions of their president/country).

[El Brujo]

God, your such an idiot.

[el_profe]

Originally posted by El [email protected] 7 2004, 09:16 PM
God, your such an idiot.
What does GOD have to do with this??? :lol: :lol:

[Intifada]

Surah 2:190-193 "Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress limits...And slay them wherever ye catch them. And turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution is worse than slaughter; But fight them not at the sacred Mosque unless they first fight you there; But if they fight you, slay them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, Allah is oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more persecution. And the religion becomes Allah&#39;s. But if they cease, Let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression"

:lol: WRONG.

its actually "and fight in the cause of allah against those who fight against you, but do not transgress. surely allah loves not transgressors.

and kill them wherever you meet them and drive them out from where they have driven you out; for persecution is worse than killing. and fight them not in and near the sacred mosque until they fight you therein. but if they fight you then fight them.

but if they desist then remember that no hostility is allowed except against the aggressors."

muslims defend themselves from the aggressors. thats why all the battles in the early years of islam were defensive not aggressive.


..Take not the Jews and Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who takes them for friends is one of them. Lo&#33; Allah guids not these wrongdoing people. (Quran Surah 5:51)

thats completely wrong. its:

"do they then seek the judgement of the days of ignorance? and who is better than allah as a judge for a people who have firm faith?"


The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land....(Quran; Surah 5:33)

wtf?
its actually: "on account of this, we prescribed for the children of israel that whoever killed a person shall be treated as if he had killed all mankind."


...beware of them lest they seduce you from some part of that which Allah has revealed to you. And if they turn away know that Allah&#39;s will is to sm te them...(Quran; Surah 5:49)

wrong AGAIN&#33;


3:82. Those who reject this (Quranic prophecy) are the evil ones

i dont know how you came to that&#33; :lol: wrong again&#33;


Surah 61:4 "Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure,"

its actually:
"most hateful is it in the sight of allah that you say what you do not"

yet again you are wrong&#33;


Surah 9:38-39 "O ye who believe&#33; What is the matter with you, that, when ye are asked to go forth in the cause of Allah, ye cling heavily to the earth? Do ye prefer the life of this world to the Hereafter? But little is the comfort of this life, as compared with the Hereafter. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things. Unless ye go forth, He will punish you with a grievous penalty, and put others in your place; but Him ye would not harm in the least. For Allah hath power over all things,"

hmmmm... WRONG&#33;

REAL TRANSLATION:"o ye who believe&#33; what is the matter with you that when it is said to you go forth in the way of allah you sink heavily towards the earth?"

im not even going to bother with the last one&#33;

[Intifada]

I dont remember the bible or the torah ever saying anything about a war against those who do not believe, or calling for a war against those who do not believe.

"think not that i am come to send peace on earth: i came not to send peace but a sword" matthew 10:34.


Their is no illegall occupation, jews lived their thousand of years ago with muslims, but when jews dicided to make a country the muslims where outraged??

why are all arabs, in your opinion muslim? they are also christian, atheist and jewish aswell.

it is an illegal occupation you fuckwit&#33;


No, Israel acts on self-defence, and of course innocent people are going to get killed.

same could be said of suicide bombers.

[canikickit]

D&#39;Anconia,

What you are saying is nonsense.
You are advocating leaving topics in the wrong forums.
Don&#39;t you think we should have the political topics in the political forums and the theoretical topics in the theory forum? it makes sense, it is very, very, very, very simple.

Look into the other forums. There is plenty of debate and plenty of disagreement.
We don&#39;t want to be discussing differnent aspects of communism and have right wing posters interupting every couple of posts with "that commie bullshit won&#39;t fly".

Taking further note of the fact that you&#39;re talking utter shite, you&#39;re complaint that discussion was stifled is entirely false. This is the third page of this topic, correct?

[AmericanZionist2004]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 05:12 PM

I dont remember the bible or the torah ever saying anything about a war against those who do not believe, or calling for a war against those who do not believe.

"think not that i am come to send peace on earth: i came not to send peace but a sword" matthew 10:34.


Their is no illegall occupation, jews lived their thousand of years ago with muslims, but when jews dicided to make a country the muslims where outraged??

why are all arabs, in your opinion muslim? they are also christian, atheist and jewish aswell.

it is an illegal occupation you fuckwit&#33;


No, Israel acts on self-defence, and of course innocent people are going to get killed.

same could be said of suicide bombers.
"F--wit." Nice, calm debating skills. And naturally, one who shoots a sleeping baby from pointe-blank range just because that baby is a Jew is certainly acting in self-defense. And I happen to know a Chrstian Arab who used to live in Egypt. He lives here now because he was running away from being persecuted by Egypt&#39;s Muslim government, one that my tax dollars help fund.

[AmericanZionist2004]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 05:29 PM
D&#39;Anconia,

What you are saying is nonsense.
You are advocating leaving topics in the wrong forums.
Don&#39;t you think we should have the political topics in the political forums and the theoretical topics in the theory forum? it makes sense, it is very, very, very, very simple.

Look into the other forums. There is plenty of debate and plenty of disagreement.
We don&#39;t want to be discussing differnent aspects of communism and have right wing posters interupting every couple of posts with "that commie bullshit won&#39;t fly".

Taking further note of the fact that you&#39;re talking utter shite, you&#39;re complaint that discussion was stifled is entirely false. This is the third page of this topic, correct?
I&#39;m pretty sure D&#39;Anconia and I have been debating without throwing around insults, and I speak on his behalf too when I say we are not trolls. Also, apparently "right-wing cappies" can only post in this forum. That&#39;s what we do. So don&#39;t generalize by saying that we&#39;re the one&#39;s responsible for such profane interruptions.

[Intifada]

i called him a fuckwit because he cant seem to accept this fact.


And naturally, one who shoots a sleeping baby from pointe-blank range just because that baby is a Jew is certainly acting in self-defense.

Early in the morning, Hisham Ahmed &#39;Abdul Fattah Kharwaish, 21, from Tulkarm refugee camp, was killed when he and other members of the Palestinian resistance clashed with Israeli occupying forces who had moved into the refugee camp. Israeli soldiers denied access of ambulances to Kharwaish and he bled to death.
this was today

how about the fact that israelis oldiers dont let pregnant women past checkpoints to get to the nearest hospital? i know of a palestinian doctor who gave birth to a baby at a checkpoint. some of these women are left to die. :angry:

[Intifada]

btw i dont like egypt&#39;s government too much either

[D&#39;Anconia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 05:29 PM
D&#39;Anconia,

What you are saying is nonsense.
You are advocating leaving topics in the wrong forums.
Don&#39;t you think we should have the political topics in the political forums and the theoretical topics in the theory forum? it makes sense, it is very, very, very, very simple.

Look into the other forums. There is plenty of debate and plenty of disagreement.
We don&#39;t want to be discussing differnent aspects of communism and have right wing posters interupting every couple of posts with "that commie bullshit won&#39;t fly".

Taking further note of the fact that you&#39;re talking utter shite, you&#39;re complaint that discussion was stifled is entirely false. This is the third page of this topic, correct?
I am sorry. You have entirely missed my point again. This is very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, simple. Please listen carefully this time.

I did not interrupt anyone&#39;s discussion with any kind of epithet as you try to suggest. I offered the column without any further comment in order to see the discussion. If you remember, I posted this twice, once in the POLITICS forum and once here. I had no intention of entering into the discussion on the other forum; I wanted to see how it would be discussed. That is why I also posted it int this forum.

As I have said before the issue of the conflict between Jews and "Palestinians" is very relevant to international politics. It is quite possibly the most important aspect of politics in the Middle East today and has been so for several decades past. If you cannot see this, please explain to me how the topic at hand is not relevant to International Politics because I am sure that that conversation would be extremely informative.

[D&#39;Anconia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 8 2004, 08:25 PM
i called him a fuckwit because he cant seem to accept this fact.


And naturally, one who shoots a sleeping baby from pointe-blank range just because that baby is a Jew is certainly acting in self-defense.

Early in the morning, Hisham Ahmed &#39;Abdul Fattah Kharwaish, 21, from Tulkarm refugee camp, was killed when he and other members of the Palestinian resistance clashed with Israeli occupying forces who had moved into the refugee camp. Israeli soldiers denied access of ambulances to Kharwaish and he bled to death.
this was today

how about the fact that israelis oldiers dont let pregnant women past checkpoints to get to the nearest hospital? i know of a palestinian doctor who gave birth to a baby at a checkpoint. some of these women are left to die. :angry:
The Israelis are forced to allow these situations by the "Palestinians" themselves. Would you actually put it beyond the scope of imagination that the "Palestinians" would try to smuggle a bomb in by strapping it to the chest of a pregnant woman or an injured person? It is entirely believable that they would try to do so.

Also it is entirely possible that while the Israelis are attending to those in need of legitimate medical attention that some other "Palestinians" with less than noble intentions could pass by in the confusion and execute a bombing mission.

[canikickit]

Don&#39;t you understand that the right wing article was out of place in the left wing forum?
We discuss left wing things in the left wing places and right wing things in the right wing places.

AmericanZionist, I wasn&#39;t intending to accuse anyone of profanity, just irrelevant interuptions.


You have entirely missed my point again.

I didn&#39;t miss your point, I pointed out that your point is wrong.


If you cannot see this, please explain to me how the topic at hand is not relevant to International Politics because I am sure that that conversation would be extremely informative.

It is relevant to international politics. If you want to see how we discuss it among ourselves do a search in the relevant forums, it has been discussed many times.

The opposing idealogies section is for the right wing viewpoint.

[synthesis]

Originally posted by D&#39;[email protected] 7 2004, 03:54 AM
It is not difficult at all . But why is it not possible for someone with whom you may disagree to offer something as a topic for discussion?

Because there&#39;s really no way to ensure that person isn&#39;t a blithering idiot until we&#39;ve heard more from him. Some of us want to have a rational discussion without conservatives tossing intellectualisms such as "Cuban-loving wankjobs" around like hot potatoes.

As I said - if you keep yourself behaved and friendly, the opinion of the board may shift in favor of unrestriction.


I did not attack anyone, rabidly or otherwise. I simply offered that article as a topic of discussion.

Yeah, and you had a Reagan avatar. This clues us in to a few things.


As for my last paragraph, I was attacked personally for not having the intelligence to use logic.

So you&#39;re really that insecure that you have to spend a massive paragraph using laughably convoluted terminology to prove absolutely no point other than the fact that you know how to use big words?


The situation used to prove this point was simple, yes, but it did not use logic either. That is all I was trying to say.

Whatever. Maybe he should have used the term "common sense." That&#39;s still no reason to digress to such a large degree.


More name-calling I see. Nice. -_-


http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/alcohol/alcohol_screening/images/wine.jpg

[Intifada]

The Israelis are forced to allow these situations by the "Palestinians" themselves. Would you actually put it beyond the scope of imagination that the "Palestinians" would try to smuggle a bomb in by strapping it to the chest of a pregnant woman or an injured person? It is entirely believable that they would try to do so.

you are sick&#33; :angry:

the "israeli" soldiers just stood by watching the palestinian doctor give birth to a pregnant woman at a checkpoint&#33; others are left to die&#33; if they had a bomb they would detonate it wouldnt they?&#33;


Also it is entirely possible that while the Israelis are attending to those in need of legitimate medical attention that some other "Palestinians" with less than noble intentions could pass by in the confusion and execute a bombing mission.

they denied access of an ambulance to a man who needed desperate help. they stood by and saw him bleed to death&#33;

[D&#39;Anconia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 9 2004, 06:37 AM
Don&#39;t you understand that the right wing article was out of place in the left wing forum?
We discuss left wing things in the left wing places and right wing things in the right wing places.

AmericanZionist, I wasn&#39;t intending to accuse anyone of profanity, just irrelevant interuptions.


You have entirely missed my point again.

I didn&#39;t miss your point, I pointed out that your point is wrong.


If you cannot see this, please explain to me how the topic at hand is not relevant to International Politics because I am sure that that conversation would be extremely informative.

It is relevant to international politics. If you want to see how we discuss it among ourselves do a search in the relevant forums, it has been discussed many times.

The opposing idealogies section is for the right wing viewpoint.
Let&#39;s examine the logic of what you are saying.

Premise 1: All "right-wingers" are disrupters.

Premise 2: This person is a "right winger."

Conclusion: Therefore, this person is a disrupter.


This is a logical conclusion. However, it has a false premise. You wrongly characterize every person with views different from yours as disrupters. Therefore, your conclusion does not follow.
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/logic.html

[Intifada]

D&#39;Anconia, your views are right wing. the only place you are able to post in is the OPPOSING IDEOLOGIES forum. che-lives is a site for left wingers to get together and talk about leftist ideas and practices.

if you cant accept this, then just leave.

[D&#39;Anconia]

Originally posted by [email protected] 10 2004, 05:44 PM
D&#39;Anconia, your views are right wing. the only place you are able to post in is the OPPOSING IDEOLOGIES forum. che-lives is a site for left wingers to get together and talk about leftist ideas and practices.




I did not post any of my own views with the column.

[canikickit]

Originally posted by D&#39;[email protected] 10 2004, 03:30 AM
Premise 1: All "right-wingers" are disrupters.

Premise 2: This person is a "right winger."

Conclusion: Therefore, this person is a disrupter.
The expression of right wing ideas in the left wing forums is a disruption. Stop pretending that you don&#39;t understand that.

I will explain my logic properly, seeing as you failed to do so.

We discuss things from a left wing perspective in their relative forums.
You posted right wing perspectives in the left wing perspective discussion area.
I removed the irrelevant discussion and put it in the relevant place.

It&#39;s very simple. Why are you trying to complicate things?


I did not post any of my own views with the column.

The views expressed in the column are right wing views.

What is the point of all this? Don&#39;t you understand how this forum is run?
There has been discussion initiated by your posting of the article. the discussion has been in the relevant forum, not in the wrong place. Where is the problem?

Do you think we should change the way the forum is run because you come in here and make some half hearted attempts to convince us otherwise?