darwin and socialism

[lostsoul]

All my friends love capitalism and for the first time we actually started to discuss it and i was shocked that they were using darwin's theory of "survivial of the fit" as a reason of why capitalism is better then socialism. Because if the weak are left alone to struggle, they will have better chances to rise up. My agruement was that even if the poor rise up, by them rising up in a capitalist system the only thing that will happen is another group of poor will be formed.

Right now they are using darwin to back up their arguement but almost every communist leader i have studied was a great admirer of darwin.

I know darwinism's foundation is about our phsyical evolution, but i thought that many socialists see socialism as the new evolution for human society and hense darwin's views support socialism.

They argued that mutal aid to each other in a society voliates darwin's rule of survival of the fittest, and socialism only weaked society because no one had a reason to work and hense made society weak. I explained that in a socialist society money is not a motivation, the motivation is pride in your work.

Debating with socialist is easy for me, but I am having trouble explaining these things in a way that they can understand. I think the problem with capitalist(or maybe us) is that they only know what they see, and can't image an alternative.

any info anyone has for or against this it'll be much appreciated.

Take Care

[Bradyman]

Yeah, my friends brought up Darwinism also as a plus for capitalism. But this is what I said.

If you take a look at human history, you will realize that it is through cooperation that our species has survived. Take a look at a human baby. It would not survive 5 minutes in this world if it wasn't for cooperation. This also goes for man in general. Because men have created civilization, technology, and advancement cooperatively, we have progressed and have become the dominant species on the planet. So, in my oppinion, it is through the trait of cooperation that has made us the "fittest" species on the planet. And it is through greedy competition that marks the downfall of our species.

In addition, are the true "fittest" people rising to the top? Of course not. You could be the son of a millionaire, and be a complete idiot, but you'd be at the top.

[RebeldePorLaPAZ]

I think the only good thing that came out of darwinism was that it works when talking about animals. Wasn't that what it was ment to be for but then people began to use it politicaly? :unsure:



--Paz

[monkeydust]

Thats an interesting point lostsoul and one that was used throughout the early 20th century- social darwinism. The most extreme example was Nazi Germany.

Firstly, point out to your friends that the term 'survival of the fittest' wasn't Darwinian but was in fact coined by Herbert spencer, a classical Liberalist to apply to society. He argued against government intervention on the basis that without it, the 'species' will be strengthened. Such ideas are usually disregarded today, even by most capitalists. Today it is widely acknowledged that an 'equality of opppurtunity' is neccesary to give everyone an equal footing in life to achieve by their talents not their circumstances. Social Darwinism also helped to fuel the fascist belief that all nations must compete, I feel this is a means to an end.




All my friends love capitalism and for the first time we actually started to discuss it and i was shocked that they were using darwin's theory of "survivial of the fit" as a reason of why capitalism is better then socialism. Because if the weak are left alone to struggle, they will have better chances to rise up. My agruement was that even if the poor rise up, by them rising up in a capitalist system the only thing that will happen is another group of poor will be formed


Explain to your friends that in capitalism, society is structured like a pyramid. By definition, for the few to expereince great wealth, the majority must face poverty. Explain to them how capitalism relies on exploitation to succeed, hence the "weak" often cannot 'rise up'.


Explain to them also how Darwins theories were purely biological and did not concern social goals. They are putting Darwin out of context, the reason many communists admire him is largely because of his contribution to science, particualrly the denouncement of the biblical 'beginning'.



They argued that mutal aid to each other in a society voliates darwin's rule of survival of the fittest, and socialism only weaked society because no one had a reason to work and hense made society weak. I explained that in a socialist society money is not a motivation, the motivation is pride in your work.


Ask them what is more important, a strong or a fair society? And consider how a fair society has a strength of its own.

[Pete]

darwin's rule of survival of the fittest

Survival of the fit, not the fittest, there is a difference. Humans may not be the fittest creature for living in subartic temperatures, but we are fit enough to do so so we survive.

Darwin was a biologist, his works do not need to favour one political system over a nother, they are merely a way of examining the natural world.

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 01:00 AM

Darwin was a biologist, his works do not need to favour one political system over a nother, they are merely a way of examining the natural world.
They do to right wingers who consider the advancement of human evolution to be a 'good' thing. A social Darwinist would argue that in capitalism those who compete the best in thir environment (as in darwinism) will eventually get the jobs suitable for their skill (e.g those in the higher skills of science etc.). Those who don't will not prosper.

The whole theory is completely outdated though and like many such theories is is too 'rounded' and 'neat' to apply to a society that is so complex and unpredictable.

[Rob]

The easiest flaws to point out against the "social darwinism" argument are 1) that Darwin was a biologist, not a political thinker and 2) that the "survival of the fittest" thing is kind of flawed, because what Darwin was saying was that those with more favorable inheritable traits will pass them on, nothing more.

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 01:16 AM
The easiest flaws to point out against the "social darwinism" argument are 1) that Darwin was a biologist, not a political thinker and 2) that the "survival of the fittest" thing is kind of flawed, because what Darwin was saying was that those with more favorable inheritable traits will pass them on, nothing more.
This is true, but social Darwinism is about acknowledging Darwins biological theories and applying the concept to society. The idea was that those with the 'right' genes would have children later brought into a wealthy background and one of influence, hence the 'influential' people in society were those who were the 'best'.

By the way I'm not a social Darwinist, I'm just giving ones point of view.

[lostsoul]

Another arguement they used in relation to darwin was that in a socialist society if everyone is making either the same or equal wages, then our entire race will become weak. Because 90% of people will have no motivation to work, or do anything and simply leech off the system.

I explained that money is not the only motivation for people working, in fact the greatest contributors to any given field are usually the ones who love what they do and do it regardless.

They replied by saying since people in a socialist society don't need to struggle or fight to survive, they become weaker and weaker.

I spent too much time studying lenin, mao, and che and most of their arguements were based on darwinism which i was not to fimlair with(other then the bullshit they teach you in highschool for a few days).

Thanks in advance for any more insight you all can provide.

Take care

p.s. I was also wondering, do socialist admire darwin only because he backs up their atheist views? or do they apply his thinking to socialism and conclude that socialism is the next evulution for mankind society?

Every communist leader i have ever read about loved darwin, even lenin had a statue of a monkey holding a human skull on his desk(i belive it said darwin somewhere there). ( i belive it is very simlair to this: http://www.talariaenterprises.com/images/tal1016.jpg ) so i always thought darwin's views support socialism, but now i am starting to think his views can be interpted in any way to back either side.

[Mike Fakelastname]

Karl Marx was a very huge admirer of Charles Darwin. He even made an attempt to communicate with him, and sent him an autographed leather bound copy of Das Capital. Unfortunately it was discovered that after Darwin died, the book was found on his desk unopened. It would appear that Darwin either was not interested at all in socialism, or was opposed to it but kept the book because it was a nice gift.

Darwinism does not neccesarily contradict socialism, though it does tend to favor capitalism as being the natural humanistic system (which it is, you cannot deny that). Just because the theory supports capitalism, that doesn't mean it counters socialism. Survival of the fittest refers to evolution, not a social society. You're friends have no ground to even bring that up.

As for your friends thinking that socialism will cause humans to gradually get weaker and weaker, they couldn't be more wrong. It's true that with the advances in technology there would be much less need for physical work (even in our current capitalistic system). But what sets socialism appart from capitalism is the fact that we do not grow weaker from this like capitalism does (loss of jobs, unemployment, overproduction) but we grow stronger! We will progress not as individuals, but as a society as a whole. Individualism never existed, doesn't exist, and will never exist.

[Jesus Christ]

We musn't forget that Social Darwinism was a major ideological contributor to slavery and other racial and cultural tragedies.

[monkeydust]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 05:36 AM




Another arguement they used in relation to darwin was that in a socialist society if everyone is making either the same or equal wages, then our entire race will become weak. Because 90% of people will have no motivation to work, or do anything and simply leech off the system.


Explain to them how capitalism is actually the causes of people 'leeching off the system' because it encourages an individualistic society and because 'the system' is a seperate entity to 'the people' quite distinctly. Ask them to imagine a 'system' which is the society. Who would leech off themselves if they ciewed themselves to be part of a larger whole which they respected and didn't try to 'better'.



I explained that money is not the only motivation for people working, in fact the greatest contributors to any given field are usually the ones who love what they do and do it regardless.

Good point, capitalism also discourages people from doing what they would like or were best at, encouraging them to instead to do what earns the most money. An example of this is a lack of teachers in disciplines which reap more industrial rewards such as Physics.


They replied by saying since people in a socialist society don't need to struggle or fight to survive, they become weaker and weaker

This is rubbish, people dont't become weaker, the genes that make up humans won't change much as they havn't for the last 20,000 years or so. What socialism will do is create strength, as people work better in cooperation than in competition. Also ask them what they consider to be weak

[Morpheus]

Originally posted by [email protected] 5 2004, 05:36 AM
They replied by saying since people in a socialist society don't need to struggle or fight to survive, they become weaker and weaker.
By this logic the rich should be very weak, since they do not have to work at all.

A good debunking of social Darwinism is Mutual Aid: A Factor of Evolution (http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/anarchist_archives/kropotkin/mutaidcontents.html) You might also see if you can find a copy of No Contest by Alfie Kohn, it also shows how cooperation is superior to competition.

[iloveatomickitten]

Darwinism can hardly support capitalism - society already protects the "weak" enough to destroy "survival of the fit" the capitalists argument is stupid as the reinstitution of primal survival would be negative for survival.

[Doda_Norrmaennen]

Darwin was a retard how smart can you be if you sit and throw an fucking apple on the ground to see if we have gravity. You just have to jump fuckin´ retard

[The Feral Underclass]

You make a good point Doda, although it wasnt Darwin who discovered Gravity, it was Isacc Newton. And he didnt throw anapple on the ground it fell onto his head. he then became interested in why it fell on his head. I am not sure Newton was the kind of person to go around jumping everywhere.

[Dirty Commie]

You are all forgetting that Darwin meant for his theories to be applied towards species as a whole, not specific members of a species.

And his theories pertaining to individual members of a species were about how certain random/forced physiological traits that allow for more breeding will be passed down to further genrations...meaning that their descendants will be more dominate over those without those traits.

Never did Darwin write anything about how everyone should be able to do as he/she pleases and whoever has the bigger gun is the best member of the species.

[Misodoctakleidist]

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 02:31 PM
Darwin was a retard how smart can you be if you sit and throw an fucking apple on the ground to see if we have gravity. You just have to jump fuckin´ retard
that was newton you fucking moron!

[Jesus Christ]

Originally posted by Misodoctakleidist+Jan 19 2004, 12:09 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Misodoctakleidist @ Jan 19 2004, 12:09 PM)
[email protected] 19 2004, 02:31 PM
Darwin was a retard how smart can you be if you sit and throw an fucking apple on the ground to see if we have gravity. You just have to jump fuckin´ retard
that was newton you fucking moron&#33; [/b]
HAHAHAHAHAHA&#33;&#33;

[FistFullOfSteel]

Originally posted by Jesus Christ+Jan 19 2004, 05:41 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jesus Christ @ Jan 19 2004, 05:41 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 12:09 PM

[email protected] 19 2004, 02:31 PM
Darwin was a retard how smart can you be if you sit and throw an fucking apple on the ground to see if we have gravity. You just have to jump fuckin´ retard
that was newton you fucking moron&#33;
HAHAHAHAHAHA&#33;&#33; [/b]
ohh man hes getting owned :lol:

[iloveatomickitten]

Originally posted by El Medico+Jan 19 2004, 06:26 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (El Medico @ Jan 19 2004, 06:26 PM)
Originally posted by Jesus [email protected] 19 2004, 05:41 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 19 2004, 12:09 PM

[email protected] 19 2004, 02:31 PM
Darwin was a retard how smart can you be if you sit and throw an fucking apple on the ground to see if we have gravity. You just have to jump fuckin´ retard
that was newton you fucking moron&#33;
HAHAHAHAHAHA&#33;&#33;
ohh man hes getting owned :lol: [/b]
That has to be the most retarded post I&#39;ve ever seen