A Question about Reformism

[ComingUpForAir]

I've long thought about getting involved with government work in some capacity.. only I'm often so disgusted by the right wing perspective, which requires so much energy to refute sometimes (what with all the right wing anger and simple mindedness + propaganda and black and white analysis).. that it's just not even worth it. What is the marxist line in different tendecies regarding reformism? All the nonsense and capitulation from the president.. all the absurdities of capitalism.. and the fact that the 1% essentially controls government via lobbyists etc. etc..

I feel as if working towards reform within the state apparatus is pointless. I feel like publications like The Nation are well enough, but it just seems as if the system will only fall if there is mass revolt and change from below that forces change. Working for a liberal or even a progressive politican (Bernie Sanders) feels like a waste of time.. I often wonder what the actual goal of liberals is at all... do they not realize that all gains made in the 30's happened and were then reversed because the controls over the means of production are still in the hands of the 1%?

What are your thoughts of getting involved with a struggle that is not explicitly Marxist, but which in any case could help? ...I'd rather not spend m time having to hide my politics while pretending as if I'm a progressive if every reform is ultimately dead in the water, a massive compromise, or just doesn't go far enough. It's frustrating knowing that I'm being robbed every day..are there better, more effective means of struggle? Your thoughts are appreciated. I have considered getting a masters and going into journalism.

I hate feeling hopeless.. I realize I ought to maybe try to join a local marxist group.. I am located in NYC.. but I am also afraid of being targeted and put on some kind of list.. I don't think my paranoia is unjustified.

[conmharáin]

I don't feel like struggling for reforms, at least to a certain extent, is at all irreconcilable with revolution. We're not where we need to be as far as overthrowing capitalism is concerned, and I don't think most working people can afford to wait around for socialist revolution to improve their lives. Treating the symptoms isn't as effective as eliminating the disease, but where a cure isn't feasible, treating symptoms can provide much needed and welcome relief.

[Blake's Baby]

Working for reforms through the established political system is pointless. Anything that they're prepared to give is something they're prepared to give up. Why do we want what they're prepared to grant us? The point is organising ourselves (which is, of course very very hard) in order to take - power (politically and economically), control (over society).

You may end up on a list if you join a radical political group. I assume I have been on a list since about 1986, when I first got involved in politics, but frankly, the authorities have better things to do at the moment than round up lefties. We're not a threat.

How about, if you're wary of getting involved in a specifically communist organisation, some community activism like Occupy Sandy? Seems they're still going - http://interoccupy.net/occupysandy/ and I'm sure you could get a sense of personal satisfaction by being involved in some endeavour that's bigger than you are, might actually be helping people, and, crucially, might be building self-organisation and solidarity that is necessary for the working class to develop its consciousness of itself as the class which has has the power to transform society?

[Hit The North]

Working for reforms through the established political system is pointless. Anything that they're prepared to give is something they're prepared to give up. Why do we want what they're prepared to grant us? The point is organising ourselves (which is, of course very very hard) in order to take - power (politically and economically), control (over society).



Confucius says that a man who cannot crush an empty can of soda with his bare hand is a million miles away from being able to break bricks with a blow of his fist.

Likewise, a class that cannot even fight for reforms is a million miles away from a class that is capable of organising a revolution.

And the idea that we can just "organise ourselves to take power" without having to relate to the day to day struggle, to defend our living standards, is a hopeless chimera.

If the working class is not fighting to improve its position under capitalism, if it is not building up its muscle in the pursuit of its demands, then it is a class that is incapable of resisting the domination of capital. If the working class isn't advancing under capitalism, it is being thrown back. There's no sticking point, some fixed position. This is why it is important to fight for reforms everywhere while, at the same time, pointing out the limitations of reformism.

[Crabbensmasher]

I don't think you should have to worry about being put on any sort of list by joining a Marxist group. Leftists groups are far from being threats these days. Going into politics is definitely a wasteful path in my opinion though. You'd be like a wolf among sheep.

There's a lot of like minded people like you out on the street. You just have to find them. As Blake said, there's a lot of community based activism you can get involved in. Even squatting perhaps.

[Blake's Baby]

... some words...

You're right, you do work for Ed Milliband. And aren't we all grateful? Thank you oh gracious Hit The North, you've shown that it's better to be a political tool than take a principled position. Struggle for communism? Pah! The working class should be grateful if it gets an extra bag of chips at the end of the week! I shall be bending over to recieve my 'reward' as soon as it's convenient for my political masters to take notice.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

You're right, you do work for Ed Milliband. And aren't we all grateful? Thank you oh gracious Hit The North, you've shown that it's better to be a political tool than take a principled position. Struggle for communism? Pah! The working class should be grateful if it gets an extra bag of chips at the end of the week! I shall be bending over to recieve my 'reward' as soon as it's convenient for my political masters to take notice.

"Principled positions" mean nothing when the only ones holding them are tiny sects; the proletarian masses need to be educated and organised, and taking an isolated, pure, "principled" position far away from their daily struggles and waiting for them to recognise your immense wisdom - and a lot of parties do this - will simply not do.

Look, I am not saying that we should become organisers for the Labour Party - I seriously doubt this sort of entryism is a good strategy, to be frank. But we shouldn't isolate ourselves from the workers. If they want reforms, we should join that fight, and encourage even greater demands on their part - all the while explaining that substantial reforms are impossible, and why. Only then can we help the workers break with reformist illusions.

[Lokomotive293]

You're right, you do work for Ed Milliband. And aren't we all grateful? Thank you oh gracious Hit The North, you've shown that it's better to be a political tool than take a principled position. Struggle for communism? Pah! The working class should be grateful if it gets an extra bag of chips at the end of the week! I shall be bending over to recieve my 'reward' as soon as it's convenient for my political masters to take notice.

It's only through participating in the daily struggles that we can organize and educate the working class. Of course only if we fight in these struggles as communists, always working to take demands further and show the limits of capitalism, not as some more group that is trying to make things a little better, but that should be a given. You can have your "principled position" all you want, but if you isolate yourself from the real struggle of the working class, that's simply going to be of no use.

[Akshay!]

I think Rosa Luxemburg said it best - "Can we oppose the social revolution, the transformation of the existing order, its final goal, to social reforms? Certainly not. The practical daily struggle for reforms, for the amelioration of the condition of the workers within the framework of the existing social order, and for democratic institutions, offers to the Social Democracy the only means of engaging in the proletarian class struggle and working in the direction of the final goal--the conquest of political power and the suppression of wage labor. For Socialist Democracy, there is an indissoluble tie between social reforms and revolution. The struggle for reforms is its means; the social revolution, its goal."

[Blake's Baby]

"Principled positions" mean nothing when the only ones holding them are tiny sects; the proletarian masses need to be educated and organised, and taking an isolated, pure, "principled" position far away from their daily struggles and waiting for them to recognise your immense wisdom - and a lot of parties do this - will simply not do.

Look, I am not saying that we should become organisers for the Labour Party - I seriously doubt this sort of entryism is a good strategy, to be frank. But we shouldn't isolate ourselves from the workers. If they want reforms, we should join that fight, and encourage even greater demands on their part - all the while explaining that substantial reforms are impossible, and why. Only then can we help the workers break with reformist illusions.

Strawman; substitutionism; elitism.


It's only through participating in the daily struggles that we can organize and educate the working class. Of course only if we fight in these struggles as communists, always working to take demands further and show the limits of capitalism, not as some more group that is trying to make things a little better, but that should be a given. You can have your "principled position" all you want, but if you isolate yourself from the real struggle of the working class, that's simply going to be of no use.

Strawman; substitutionism; elitism.

The working class doesn't need to be 'organised'. Consciousness is not brought from without. The working class is quite capable of doing without your sects, or the Labour Party.

Did either of you actually read the OP? "Is working inside bourgeois politics ineffective?" is what was asked. "Yes," says I, "join a communist organisation or failing that, join some community activist group". Please tell me exactly why you think that's "far away from ... daily struggles" or tending to "isolate yourself from the real struggle of the working class". Alternatively, admit you don't know what you're talking about. Either way.

[Hit The North]

Some rant...


Strawman



From the mouth of an expert if your rant above is anything to go by.


The working class doesn't need to be 'organised'. Consciousness is not brought from without. The working class is quite capable of doing without your sects, or the Labour Party.The class needs to organise from within. Who has argued that "consciousness is brought from without"?


Did either of you actually read the OP? "Is working inside bourgeois politics ineffective?" is what was asked. "Yes," says I, "join a communist organisation But what kind of communist organisation? One that intervenes in the class struggle or one that sits on its arse sharpening its principles?


or failing that, join some community activist group".Isn't that just swapping big reforms for small reforms?

[Geiseric]

"Principled positions" mean nothing when the only ones holding them are tiny sects; the proletarian masses need to be educated and organised, and taking an isolated, pure, "principled" position far away from their daily struggles and waiting for them to recognise your immense wisdom - and a lot of parties do this - will simply not do.

Look, I am not saying that we should become organisers for the Labour Party - I seriously doubt this sort of entryism is a good strategy, to be frank. But we shouldn't isolate ourselves from the workers. If they want reforms, we should join that fight, and encourage even greater demands on their part - all the while explaining that substantial reforms are impossible, and why. Only then can we help the workers break with reformist illusions.

Communists goals are one and inseperable from the working class. I'm pretty sure that's from the Communist Manifesto, so by extension it makes sense for communists, who are themselves working class (which should be obvious), to start organizing for things that have organic popularity with the rest of the working class, such as free healthcare, wages to match inflation, a massive public works program, free education, and other demands which are impossible without abolishing capitalism.

Anybody who thinks otherwise is a textbook, objective, sectarian.

[Anglo-Saxon Philistine]

Strawman; substitutionism; elitism.

The working class doesn't need to be 'organised'. Consciousness is not brought from without. The working class is quite capable of doing without your sects, or the Labour Party.

Did either of you actually read the OP? "Is working inside bourgeois politics ineffective?" is what was asked. "Yes," says I, "join a communist organisation or failing that, join some community activist group". Please tell me exactly why you think that's "far away from ... daily struggles" or tending to "isolate yourself from the real struggle of the working class". Alternatively, admit you don't know what you're talking about. Either way.

I was responding to your comments on comrade HtN's post, not the OP. The rest of your post simply does not follow; how does advocating the education and organisation of the proletariat - by organisations that should be chiefly proletarian! - and the formation of a mass party constitute "substitutionism" or "elitism"? I would have thought that the obvious spurious charge would be that of tailism, not substitutionism.

And if the working class does not need to be educated and organised, and the various parties and sects should not try to substitute themselves for the organised working class, why would anyone even be in a party?