How Modern Capitalism ACTUALLY Works

[redstar2000]

Larry Sisung has spent six years lining up a deal to carve a 650-room hotel out of the World Trade Center, one of New Orleans' most prominent and underused buildings.

Now, Sisung can look forward to a huge payday once the planned Westin World Trade Center Hotel opens in 2006 or 2007.

He'll need an awfully big wallet, according to a forensic audit of the deal conducted by the Metropolitan Crime Commission.

Sisung will invest $333,000 in cash as equity in the hotel, and the present-day value of that investment when the hotel opens will be $35.8 million, more than $100 in value for every dollar invested, according to the crime commission's private review of the deal.

http://www.nola.com/business/t-p/index.ssf...99836146180.xml (http://www.nola.com/business/t-p/index.ssf?/base/money-0/1073199836146180.xml)
.........................................

This is actually a pretty long article and the more of it you read, the more fascinating it becomes.

It's pretty far removed from the visions of capitalism that our recent influx of Rand cultists have offered...perhaps due to the fact that real capitalism is "a very different animal" from the "Platonic capitalism" of their fantasies.

It's also a rather effective refutation of the notion that those who become wealthy under capitalism do so because "they work hard".

Cunning, yes. Hard work? "That's for suckers."

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[JustSoul]

That is hard work and talent. If you think its so easy why dont you go out and do it. Then you can spend all those cash helping your worker friends.

[redstar2000]

That is hard work and talent.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You are supposed to click on the link and read the entire story, dummy!

Then post a reply.

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[JustSoul]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:59 PM

That is hard work and talent.

:lol: :lol: :lol:

You are supposed to click on the link and read the entire story, dummy!

Then post a reply.

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I did read first two pages. But its too long and the language is too hard for me , to read it all . If you have any particular point trying to make with it why dont you post the quote or at least explain it with your own words.

Then again what is wrong with it apart from the fact he may have broken some laws.

[Misodoctakleidist]

justsoul, i don't think redstar2000 has $300,000 thats why he doesn't do it. It's not hard work, it's just use of capital.

[redstar2000]

But it's too long and the language is too hard for me to read it all .

Ok, I can understand that. Now, can you understand that before discussing political questions that you need to learn the language well enough to read it fluently and develop the patience to follow an extended line of argument?

The point of the article--which goes into great detail deliberately--is to explain how someone with a small amount of capital and the right political connections can make a fortune without breaking any laws.

This has nothing to do with either "talent" or "hard work".

And it is how modern capitalism really works.

Like most of the "defenders" of capitalism that come to this board, you really don't have a clue about either the system you defend or the alternatives that we propose.

Mostly what we hear from you are mindless clichés about "hard work", "talent", "human nature", etc.

And I, for one, grow occasionally irritated...which is why I called you "dummy". I apologize.

But, dammit, it's really getting to be about time that we start holding the cappies in this forum to a higher standard of discussion than we've been doing.


I don't think redstar2000 has $300,000 that's why he doesn't do it.

:lol: My net worth is not even 1% of this sum. :lol:

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[JustSoul]

Ok, I can understand that. Now, can you understand that before discussing political questions that you need to learn the language well enough to read it fluently and develop the patience to follow an extended line of argument?


I had no problem following any argument on the political boards. Its just special termins in those articles that make them hard to read.

The point of the article--which goes into great detail deliberately--is to explain how someone with a small amount of capital and the right political connections can make a fortune without breaking any laws.


And what is wrong with that? There are many people with such a sum and yet you dont see similar things happening left and right. Maybe geting needed political friends and seeing the oportunity is indeed a talent? Tell me exactly what is wrong with it. I cant come up with any logical argument besides jealousy?

[A Pict]

interesting article. But doesn't it really just illuminate the problem of government intervention in economic issues? These guys are using government enforced morality by using a public building (1st bad idea-How can the "public" own something? Curious on this point they abuse the system-- More curious is you solution is to make every public) and then most likely screwing with the local politics system so they don't have to pay outrageous taxes. Or rather keep the money that should be going to taxes, to public schools etc. But the problem is there are exhobriant taxes to evade for superflous things the government should not be engaging in (Such as Public Schooling, etc.... While you want even HIGHER taxes and more state spending---which increases the pull peddlers).


This is the nature of a "mixed' economy, of government enforced violence against business men and productive ability. The result is this; some can't compete intellectually, so they purchase pull. The solution isn't create more pull to be purchased, rather then less.


I like this board---You guys find articles to prove my points for me.

[A Pict]

Also, didn't anyone else find this last name especially hilarious?



Why not let 400,000 African-American residents of the city benefit instead of a few select people?" Alltmont said.



Isn't 400,000 African Americans a FEW (in the big picture of everything) SELECT ( since onlly those selected-ie african-americans, not everyone) people? Haha

[redstar2000]

And what is wrong with that? There are many people with such a sum and yet you don't see similar things happening left and right.

Dear me! It does happen "left and right". Does the connection "Halliburton + Iraq" ring a bell with you?


Maybe getting needed political friends and seeing the opportunity is indeed a talent? Tell me exactly what is wrong with it.

You should be telling me. It is the way modern capitalism works...and has nothing to do with "talent", "hard work", "competition", "better products", "free markets", "human nature", blah, blah, blah.

Your suggestion that ass-kissing is a "talent" is clearly a desperate one.


But doesn't it really just illuminate the problem of government intervention in economic issues?

No, it illuminates how modern capitalism actually works...as opposed to Randian fantasies.


superfluous things the government should not be engaging in, such as Public Schooling, etc...

The Randian grasp of history reminds one of a bb in a boxcar. Don't you even realize that it was capitalists who wanted a public school system in the first place?

Would you let an illiterate person operate a complex, expensive machine? Or spend your own money to teach him how to read so he could understand the instruction manual?

Don't you ever listen to the complaints of real capitalists? They don't object to the costs of public education; they complain when it turns out people who still can't read and write.

(And considering some of the pro-capitalist posts in this forum, I know exactly how they must feel.)


This is the nature of a "mixed' economy, of government enforced violence against business men and productive ability. The result is this: some can't compete intellectually, so they purchase pull.

News flash: they all purchase pull...as much as they can afford.

Productive ability is as common as dirt...pull is what really pays off in modern capitalism as it really is.

"Who is John Galt?"

A fantasy...like Frodo Baggins.

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[A Pict]

No, it illuminates how modern capitalism actually works...as opposed to Randian fantasies


That is why i am a Radical. The current system does need to be changed. Rand's fantasys were that excatly- she never once said that maintance of the status quo was her objective.


Don't you even realize that it was capitalists who wanted a public school system in the first place?

Ad Hominem Tu Quoque.

For the love of god go to http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies before posting any more logical fallacies.



News flash: they all purchase pull...as much as they can afford.

Productive ability is as common as dirt...pull is what really pays off in modern capitalism as it really is [In America, a Mixed Economy].

"Who is John Galt?"

A fantasy...like Frodo Baggins.

Emphasis Mine.

And the solution (as i stated before but you evaded) is to provide the government with an infinite amount of pull?


Once again, you have a very rudimentary grasp of Rand. John Galt was indeed a fantasy- he is the uber-mensch. She was a idealist, not a pragmaticist so you are not even properly insulting her.


Also of note, JustSoul is a fool.

[JustSoul]

Dear me! It does happen "left and right". Does the connection "Halliburton + Iraq" ring a bell with you?


Once again its a rare ocassion. Less then a 100 cases when there are thousands and thousands of people with such starting capital.

Also there are anti-monopoly and anti-corruption laws. They should be enforced better i do agree. But what does it have to do with capitalism.

Your suggestion that ass-kissing is a "talent" is clearly a desperate one.


First of all it's obviously a talent. There are no limitations in a game called life. There are rules (laws) that you shouldnt break and everything else is ok. If you are sucessfull without cheating , even if you won a loterry , then i don't see anything wrong with it.

However that's not the point. So there are few bad apples , but it doesnt mean you should suddenly stop growing them at all. Same here... There are some people that were just lucky and got rich. However there are a lot more that have earned everything with their hard work.


A Pict calling me a fool is easy. I can do that too look. A Pict you are a moron.

[redstar2000]

Ad Hominem Tu Quoque.

For the love of god go to http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies before posting any more logical fallacies.

There are no "gods" to "love", but I looked at your site anyway.

The fallacy to which you refer is the claim that inconsistency is equivalent to falsehood...which is obviously false in itself.

But the inconsistency that I pointed out was not yours. The inconsistency I pointed out was between 1) your statement that public funds should not be spent on public education if capitalism were "logically consistent" and 2) the objective historical fact that capitalists created the public school system to meet their needs for educated workers.

Is it possible that they know something that you don't?

I've noticed something of a habit among "right libertarians" in particular and conservatives in general: when confronted with an argument, they first look to see if they can "tag" it with some kind of "logical fallacy" mark...which will supposedly "relieve" them of the responsibility to actually respond to the merits of the argument itself.

"For the 'love' of 'god'", please stop doing that.

If you think an argument is illogical, explain why you think so...don't just toss Latin phrases about as if they were chips at the casino.

Do not forget that an argument might well contain a "logical fallacy" and yet still contain an accurate depiction of historical reality.

Logic is a "tool"...not an "idol".


And the solution (as I stated before but you evaded) is to provide the government with an infinite amount of pull?

Sorry, I assumed you were speaking to someone else. I am a communist. Communism is a stateless, classless society that doesn't use money at all. "Pull" does not exist nor the means to purchase it.


Once again it's a rare occasion. Less than a 100 cases when there are thousands and thousands of people with such starting capital.

Also, there are anti-monopoly and anti-corruption laws. They should be enforced better I do agree. But what does it have to do with capitalism?

I suggest a subscription to a daily newspaper. What you assert is "rare" is as common as dirt.


First of all it [ass-kissing] is obviously a talent. There are no limitations in a game called life. There are rules (laws) that you shouldn't break and everything else is ok. If you are successful without cheating , even if you won a lottery, then I don't see anything wrong with it.

Well, I obviously see plenty wrong with a system that says ass-kissers "win".

But, with your attitude, I can see that you'll go much further in "the game of life" than I did.

Practice your pucker!


There are some people that were just lucky and got rich. However there are a lot more that have earned everything with their hard work.

"A Pict", whatever his other shortcomings, has you pegged. You are a fool...at least when it comes to defending the system that you embrace.

Capitalism, like any other class system, has powerful laws and customs relating to inheritance. My estimate is that 95% or more of the wealthy people in this or any country inherited their fortune. The hardest work they ever did was getting born to the right parents.

And staying alive long enough to inherit.

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[A Pict]

1) your statement that public funds should not be spent on public education if capitalism were "logically consistent" and 2) the objective historical fact that capitalists created the public school system to meet their needs for educated workers.


The capitilists of 200 odd years ago were in a very different position and agreed with socialists on a few key points. They still beleived the Common good to be greater then individiual rights (Adam Smith and the others argueing for Capitalism because it kicks ass, efficiency wise, but no one protected it on a moral level). Saying what one group has said in the past and saying it is inconcsistant with what they say today is a textbook version of ad hominem tu quoque.



I've noticed something of a habit among "right libertarians" in particular and conservatives in general: when confronted with an argument, they first look to see if they can "tag" it with some kind of "logical fallacy" mark...which will supposedly "relieve" them of the responsibility to actually respond to the merits of the argument itself.


And ive noticed a habit amongst mystics and other savages- rather then address counter arguements, create 2 appeals to emotion and an ad hominem.



Sorry, I assumed you were speaking to someone else. I am a communist. Communism is a stateless, classless society that doesn't use money at all. "Pull" does not exist nor the means to purchase it

okay... techinicelly this is a No True Scotsman.. but anyway...

When asked what should be done with this country, you would answer seize the possesions of the rich. Who? The government? The "People"? Communists argue for a short-term dictatorship to "straighten" everything out, then your anarchy ideal. Why? Because your ideal can't work (well with industry), it allows you to advocate statism and then have a protected cover. Bullshit.

From now one, all references to the "ideal" will have its own thread. There ill demolish your irrational ideal, but here you have to deal with what your communism wants to do NOW.

[redstar2000]

Saying what one group has said in the past and saying it is inconsistent with what they say today is a textbook version of ad hominem tu quoque.

And you are a "textbook case" of manifest inability to read with comprehension.

What real capitalists said in the past is consistent with what they say now...it is inconsistent with what you say.

Probably because you are not a real capitalist (businessman) yourself...just an ideologue.


Communists argue for a short-term dictatorship to "straighten" everything out, then your anarchy ideal.

The Leninist variant of communism argued for and attempted to implement a "short-term dictatorship" to "straighten things out".

I think we would agree that it "did not work"--their "socialism" turned out to be a "transition stage" to capitalism.

I am of the opinion that the establishment of communism should begin "on day one" after the proletarian revolution; that no special authority should be even temporarily granted to any "dictator" or "vanguard party"...that all power must remain in the hands of the working class, exercised through such democratic or demarchic institutions as it sees fit to establish.

The rest of your post is irrelevant.

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[JustSoul]

suggest a subscription to a daily newspaper. What you assert is "rare" is as common as dirt.


I read newspapers,watch tv and browse news sites on the net. Iam very well informed and i still do claim that those things are rare.

Well, I obviously see plenty wrong with a system that says ass-kissers "win".

But, with your attitude, I can see that you'll go much further in "the game of life" than I did.

Practice your pucker!


Ofcause i will go much further. Because people with no grasp of reality (and communists are just that) can't do good in a modern society.

Capitalism is the only fair way to judge Value of a work. If "ass-kissing" is so valued in today's society then it's problem of the society and not capitalism.

"A Pict", whatever his other shortcomings, has you pegged. You are a fool...at least when it comes to defending the system that you embrace.

Capitalism, like any other class system, has powerful laws and customs relating to inheritance. My estimate is that 95% or more of the wealthy people in this or any country inherited their fortune. The hardest work they ever did was getting born to the right parents.


You are so wrong its not even funny. I do not deny that borning in a rich family is a big plus. Good education , starting capital etc are nice things to have. But there are much more in being sucessfull then just borning to the right parents.

Here is some proof. Take my father's university group. All 15 of them are sucessfull in Europe/Usa/Israel. All of them started as illegal/semi-illegal imigrants with no capital and rights. Now they earn 70.000+$ a year and that's completly legit and without any "ass-kissing". You can't prove me wrong , because any amount of lies and propaganda can't change the facts of life.

Edit: They are all from ex-USSR/Russia.

[Soviet power supreme]

Isn't 400,000 African Americans a FEW (in the big picture of everything) SELECT ( since onlly those selected-ie african-americans, not everyone) people? Haha

But it is helluva lot more than 13.


Johnson voted for the legislation that gave the hotel deal a tax break in the fall of 2002. State ethics code bars elected officials from voting on a measure that benefits family members, but Barthe was not married to Johnson when the senator voted for the legislation.

According to Asher's calculations, Johnson's wife will invest $186,900 in the deal. The value of her investment will be $11.5 million, Asher figures.

Johnson and Barthe did not return phone calls.

Other investors have ties to Johnson, including his cousin, Dale Valdery, a local basketball standout as a youth and former men's head basketball coach at Xavier University. He works out of Johnson's local Senate office.


So this law bans only wife and children to make inside deals?Cousins and uncles and aunts etc aren't included in this law,Right?

[redstar2000]

Here is some proof. Take my father's university group. All 15 of them are successful in Europe/USA/Israel. All of them started as illegal/semi-illegal immigrants with no capital and rights. Now they earn 70.000+$ a year and that's completely legit and without any "ass-kissing". You can't prove me wrong , because any amount of lies and propaganda can't change the facts of life.

Edit: They are all from ex-USSR/Russia.

You gave yourself away; I'm well aware of the "success" of the Russian émigrés in New York.

They are gangsters, of course.

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[A Pict]

You gave yourself away; I'm well aware of the "success" of the Russian émigrés in New York.

They are gangsters, of course

So all russian emigres are gangsters? That sounds a little prejudiced. Here is your fallacy and your premises (hehe).


Premise-SOME russian emigres are gangsters.
Premise- His father's group are russian emigres

Conclusion- They are gangsters.


Fallacy--Converse accident

[JustSoul]

They are not gangsters cough. Is it the best answer you can come up with?

Some are programers, two are math proffesors , one is owning a small travel agency , one is an engineer etc.

[Invader Zim]

LOL I love that!

Even better is Bill Gates, he steals other peoples software, cheats his partner out of the company (the one who actually made your one and only genuine program), and with the cash he has unfairly gained, goes around buying everyone out using SS tactics where necessary, futher increasing his cash and the cycle.

Thats the secret to success in modern capitalism, be a backstabbing bastard, steal your best friends idea, and then create a monopoly, and rip the customer off.

Great system.

[JustSoul]

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 03:30 PM
LOL I love that!

Even better is Bill Gates, he steals other peoples software, cheats his partner out of the company (the one who actually made your one and only genuine program), and with the cash he has unfairly gained, goes around buying everyone out using SS tactics where necessary, futher increasing his cash and the cycle.

Thats the secret to success in modern capitalism, be a backstabbing bastard, steal your best friends idea, and then create a monopoly, and rip the customer off.

Great system.
Yeah i love Bill Gates too. He was able to build such an empire from nothing. Something that noone on this boards could even come close to.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by JustSoul+Jan 6 2004, 04:17 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JustSoul @ Jan 6 2004, 04:17 PM)
[email protected] 6 2004, 03:30 PM
LOL I love that&#33;

Even better is Bill Gates, he steals other peoples software, cheats his partner out of the company (the one who actually made your one and only genuine program), and with the cash he has unfairly gained, goes around buying everyone out using SS tactics where necessary, futher increasing his cash and the cycle.

Thats the secret to success in modern capitalism, be a backstabbing bastard, steal your best friends idea, and then create a monopoly, and rip the customer off.

Great system.
Yeah i love Bill Gates too. He was able to build such an empire from nothing. Something that noone on this boards could even come close to. [/b]
Yeah because we all actually have a trace of morality.

[JustSoul]

Originally posted by Enigma+Jan 6 2004, 07:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Enigma @ Jan 6 2004, 07:31 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 04:17 PM

[email protected] 6 2004, 03:30 PM
LOL I love that&#33;

Even better is Bill Gates, he steals other peoples software, cheats his partner out of the company (the one who actually made your one and only genuine program), and with the cash he has unfairly gained, goes around buying everyone out using SS tactics where necessary, futher increasing his cash and the cycle.

Thats the secret to success in modern capitalism, be a backstabbing bastard, steal your best friends idea, and then create a monopoly, and rip the customer off.

Great system.
Yeah i love Bill Gates too. He was able to build such an empire from nothing. Something that noone on this boards could even come close to.
Yeah because we all actually have a trace of morality. [/b]
Even if you had no morality you won&#39;t be able to do this. Because you lack talent sorry. But there are thousand upon thousand of people with no morals. Yet there is only 1 Bill Gates.

[Invader Zim]

Originally posted by JustSoul+Jan 6 2004, 07:50 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (JustSoul @ Jan 6 2004, 07:50 PM)
Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 07:31 PM

Originally posted by [email protected] 6 2004, 04:17 PM

[email protected] 6 2004, 03:30 PM
LOL I love that&#33;

Even better is Bill Gates, he steals other peoples software, cheats his partner out of the company (the one who actually made your one and only genuine program), and with the cash he has unfairly gained, goes around buying everyone out using SS tactics where necessary, futher increasing his cash and the cycle.

Thats the secret to success in modern capitalism, be a backstabbing bastard, steal your best friends idea, and then create a monopoly, and rip the customer off.

Great system.
Yeah i love Bill Gates too. He was able to build such an empire from nothing. Something that noone on this boards could even come close to.
Yeah because we all actually have a trace of morality.
Even if you had no morality you won&#39;t be able to do this. Because you lack talent sorry. But there are thousand upon thousand of people with no morals. Yet there is only 1 Bill Gates. [/b]
For all you know I could be able to use C++, Java, PHP, Pearl, VB, etc. Who are you to make the assumption that I am talentless?


As it happens I am when it comes to programming, I know HTML and a little Delphi and thats it.

but thats not the point.

[Rasta Sapian]

a capitalist society is full of hard workers&#33;
and for some of those fortunate workers, capitalism is a dream come true, however for many others capitalism and hard work just means survial in the big world&#33;

"it takes money to make money"

[Urban Rubble]

two are math proffesors , one is owning a small travel agency , one is an engineer etc.

How did he start a travel agency with no Capital ? How were the others educated without Capital ? College costs money.

[redstar2000]

Originally posted by A [email protected] 6 2004, 06:11 AM

You gave yourself away; I&#39;m well aware of the "success" of the Russian émigrés in New York.

They are gangsters, of course

So all Russian émigrés are gangsters? That sounds a little prejudiced. Here is your fallacy and your premises (hehe).


Premise-SOME Russian émigrés are gangsters.
Premise- His father&#39;s group are Russian émigrés

Conclusion- They are gangsters.


Fallacy--Converse accident
The only successful Russian émigrés that I&#39;ve read of are, indeed, gangsters.

If JustSoul says that he is acquainted with a group of successful Russian émigrés, then my assumption--based on previous evidence--is that they "must be" gangsters as well.

The fact that they have "nominal businesses" is meaningless...all sensible gangsters have "fronts" through which they operate.

What you&#39;re really saying, "A Pict", is that I lack definitive empirical proof of my statement.

Conceded.

But, as the news item that I began this thread with indicates, I know how modern capitalism really works. When LostSoul starts talking about his "successful acquaintances", I assume their "success" is in line with the norms of American capitalism.

Perhaps you think that an "unreasonable" leap...but I am not an "unbiased juror" when it comes to capitalism and those who "succeed" within it. I assume the worst and have rarely been disappointed.

On a historical note: organized crime has been the traditional road to success for émigrés from all countries in the United States, beginning with Irish gangsters in New York in the 1840s and 50s. The Russians in New York, the gusanos in Havana, the Vietnamese in Los Angeles...being only the latest examples. The ones that don&#39;t get gunned down will someday have "respectable grandchildren". :lol:

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[A Pict]

and rip the customer off

How?



Yeah because we all actually have a trace of morality.


I see, so you think morality and existance work against each other? That the more moral you are, the less likely you are to survive? No wonder when given your dirty code of morality as the "only" one, some people reject morality altogther.

True morality is that of living, not of death. A truly moral man is succesffuly in life BECAUSE of his morals, not in spite of them.


"it takes money to make money"


Then where did the orignal money (ie wealth allowing spare time) come from?

Here ill answer that for ya- Innovation&#33;



Here, ill even elaborate to show the ridiculousness of that statement. Today, the vast majority of machines are created by other machines.

Therefore " it takes machines to make machines".

And the same question applies- Then where did the original machines come from?

(Also of note, this is not a point of inherintance (So don&#39;t ramble down that passageway-its irrelevent to this particular arguement), but rather of the concept that the only way to acquire capital is through posseision of capital.)




I know how modern capitalism really works. When LostSoul starts talking about his "successful acquaintances", I assume their "success" is in line with the norms of American capitalism.

And isn&#39;t that the sick goal of all you mystics? To make an industrialist who creates a mountain of wealth from nothing the moral equivalent of a bank robber?


Err.. i mean

And isn&#39;t that the sick goal of all you mystics? To make an industrialist who creates a mountain of wealth from nothing the moral equivalent of a bank robber?





Perhaps you think that an "unreasonable" leap...but I am not an "unbiased juror" when it comes to capitalism and those who "succeed" within it. I assume the worst and have rarely been disappointed


more anecdotal evidence, which is worthless to our debate.

[redstar2000]

And isn&#39;t that the sick goal of all you mystics? To make an industrialist who creates a mountain of wealth from nothing the moral equivalent of a bank robber?

If you believe that an "industrialist" creates "a mountain of wealth" from "nothing"...then it seems that you are far more worthy of the "honorific" mystic than anyone at Che-Lives.

And the prophet Rockefeller did speak "Let There Be Railroads" and LO&#33; railroads sprang up out of the ground from sea to shining sea. The Holy Rand, Book 3, Chapter 7, Verse 21.

:lol:

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A site about communist ideas

[MysticArcher]

"If you believe that an "industrialist" creates "a mountain of wealth" from "nothing"...then it seems that you are far more worthy of the "honorific" mystic than anyone at Che-Lives."

redstar your making my name sound bad

anyway, the way my friend explained capitalism&#39;s problem is the inefficiency, since not all the product made is sold, that&#39;s why farmers in the US destroy tons of grain, it&#39;s not that people don&#39;t need it it&#39;s that they can&#39;t afford pay the farmer for it

"True morality is that of living, not of death. A truly moral man is succesffuly in life BECAUSE of his morals, not in spite of them."

A Pict

robber barons, or for a more modern example Enron was pretty successful (if by success you mean profit for the few at the top) and they were very immoral

[JustSoul]

How did he start a travel agency with no Capital ? How were the others educated without Capital ? College costs money.

They have all immigrated right after finishing university in USSR , so they had education.

He have worked as Taxi driver to get a starting cash.

The only successful Russian émigrés that I&#39;ve read of are, indeed, gangsters

Then you haven&#39;t met many.

If JustSoul says that he is acquainted with a group of successful Russian émigrés, then my assumption--based on previous evidence--is that they "must be" gangsters as well.


Yes i have noticed problems with logic on your side.

The fact that they have "nominal businesses" is meaningless...all sensible gangsters have "fronts" through which they operate.


What is not understandable. They are not gangsters , what a stupid denial.

But, as the news item that I began this thread with indicates, I know how modern capitalism really works. When LostSoul starts talking about his "successful acquaintances", I assume their "success" is in line with the norms of American capitalism.


Yes and it just proves you know jack in reality.

Perhaps you think that an "unreasonable" leap...but I am not an "unbiased juror" when it comes to capitalism and those who "succeed" within it. I assume the worst and have rarely been disappointed

Because people like you only see dirt. Even if it&#39;s just a small portion compared to light.

On a historical note: organized crime has been the traditional road to success for émigrés from all countries in the United States, beginning with Irish gangsters in New York in the 1840s and 50s. The Russians in New York, the gusanos in Havana, the Vietnamese in Los Angeles...being only the latest examples. The ones that don&#39;t get gunned down will someday have "respectable grandchildren

Wow you sure are desperate to twist my example.

[A Pict]

If you believe that an "industrialist" creates "a mountain of wealth" from "nothing"...then it seems that you are far more worthy of the "honorific" mystic than anyone at Che-Lives.

And the prophet Rockefeller did speak "Let There Be Railroads" and LO&#33; railroads sprang up out of the ground from sea to shining sea. The Holy Rand, Book 3, Chapter 7, Verse 21.

From worthles materials. A gallon of crude oil 500 feet in the ground is NOTHING, unless I can use it.

Another assumption you make in EVERY ONE of your arguements is every man has a existance entitled to him. Unfortunately (or rather fortunately), it doesn&#39;t.

So for argueing for a communist state, in which everyone has existance entitled to him, you use the premise everyone has an existance entitled to him.

1st the premise is faulty. No giant hand will save the fool intent on his own destruction.

2nd Circulus in demonstrando

Everyone of his employees got richer because of the industrialist. Even if an employee is making a bare subsidence (which, with the presence of numerous "proletriate" with access to both computers and internet seems to be a rather rare occurance), they are still getting food that THEY HAD NO RIGHT TO JUST BY EXISTANCE.


robber barons


1st- So your not disputing that your morality drives men to their deaths?

God damn&#33; So after people have accepted your twisted code of ethics, they get two choices; 1. Be a hypocrite 2. Be dead.

2nd Excatly what did the successful robber barons do that was immoral? Maybe the problem is YOUR morality?


or for a more modern example Enron was pretty successful

They were existing on the ignorance of others. They don&#39;t seem to successful today, correct?

[redstar2000]

Having lost interest in JustSoul&#39;s fantasies of "success in America", I pass on to this rather odd statement...


Another assumption you make in EVERY ONE of your arguments is every man has an existence entitled to him. Unfortunately (or rather fortunately), it doesn&#39;t.

I&#39;m not sure what "it" refers to here...perhaps "A Pict" means to argue that "every man does not--fortunately, he says--have entitlement to existence."

Which would suggest that we may, if we wish, kill and eat any man we can...right?

If he "has no right to existence", it would logically follow that we could do anything we wish to him...not excluding murder and cannibalism.

Of course, he could also do it to us. :o

The ghost of Thomas Hobbes must be grinning with amusement.

"First principles" are tricky like that. Whenever you try to articulate them in some kind of coherent form, you find yourself having to add exceptions, special cases, etc. (Note that "A Pict&#39;s" formula doesn&#39;t mention women at all...perhaps they do have a "right to existence"...)

Rather than try to proceed from "first principles", I prefer to begin with history...actual living human beings in specific circumstances. What "rights" do they have? To what are they "entitled" by virtue of existing? What would be a "meaningful" concept of "justice" now?

The universe, being inanimate, does not "care" about us or anything else. Only we decide what and who to care about, under what circumstances, to what degree, etc. "Rights" are something we construct...like a building. They have no "Platonic" existence.

If we decide that every human being "has a right to exist"...then that decision is just as valid as the architect&#39;s decision to put a wall here and not there.

You are always free to criticize the decision, of course.

[Pete]

A Pict, I suggest you read this essay on the English langauge (http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/patee.html) and then look for some good, simple English words instead of trying to sound sophisticated with all your Latin.


Yeah i love Bill Gates too. He was able to build such an empire from nothing. Something that noone on this boards could even come close to

Because none of us would have the heart to do so.

[JustSoul]

Redstar because you have nothing to say. At least be a man and admit you were wrong. You are just looking like a totall ass now.

[Sabocat]

So for argueing for a communist state, in which everyone has existance entitled to him, you use the premise everyone has an existance entitled to him.


Yes. The UN feels the same way, hence the existance of the "Universal Declaration of Human Rights" Seeing as most of the world agreed with this resolution, you would be in a small minority.

On December 10, 1948 the General Assembly of the United Nations adopted and proclaimed the Universal Declaration of Human Rights the full text of which appears in the following pages. Following this historic act the Assembly called upon all Member countries to publicize the text of the Declaration and "to cause it to be disseminated, displayed, read and expounded principally in schools and other educational institutions, without distinction based on the political status of countries or territories."
PREAMBLE
Whereas recognition of the inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world,

Whereas disregard and contempt for human rights have resulted in barbarous acts which have outraged the conscience of mankind, and the advent of a world in which human beings shall enjoy freedom of speech and belief and freedom from fear and want has been proclaimed as the highest aspiration of the common people,

Whereas it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected by the rule of law,

Whereas it is essential to promote the development of friendly relations between nations,

Whereas the peoples of the United Nations have in the Charter reaffirmed their faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person and in the equal rights of men and women and have determined to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

Whereas Member States have pledged themselves to achieve, in co-operation with the United Nations, the promotion of universal respect for and observance of human rights and fundamental freedoms,

Whereas a common understanding of these rights and freedoms is of the greatest importance for the full realization of this pledge,

Now, Therefore THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY proclaims THIS UNIVERSAL DECLARATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS as a common standard of achievement for all peoples and all nations, to the end that every individual and every organ of society, keeping this Declaration constantly in mind, shall strive by teaching and education to promote respect for these rights and freedoms and by progressive measures, national and international, to secure their universal and effective recognition and observance, both among the peoples of Member States themselves and among the peoples of territories under their jurisdiction.

Article 1.
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights.They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Article 2.
Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, colour, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status. Furthermore, no distinction shall be made on the basis of the political, jurisdictional or international status of the country or territory to which a person belongs, whether it be independent, trust, non-self-governing or under any other limitation of sovereignty.

Article 3.
Everyone has the right to life, liberty and security of person.

Article 4.
No one shall be held in slavery or servitude; slavery and the slave trade shall be prohibited in all their forms.

Article 5.
No one shall be subjected to torture or to cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment or punishment.

Article 6.
Everyone has the right to recognition everywhere as a person before the law.

Article 7.
All are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to equal protection of the law. All are entitled to equal protection against any discrimination in violation of this Declaration and against any incitement to such discrimination.

Article 8.
Everyone has the right to an effective remedy by the competent national tribunals for acts violating the fundamental rights granted him by the constitution or by law.

Article 9.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary arrest, detention or exile.

Article 10.
Everyone is entitled in full equality to a fair and public hearing by an independent and impartial tribunal, in the determination of his rights and obligations and of any criminal charge against him.

Article 11.
(1) Everyone charged with a penal offence has the right to be presumed innocent until proved guilty according to law in a public trial at which he has had all the guarantees necessary for his defence.

(2) No one shall be held guilty of any penal offence on account of any act or omission which did not constitute a penal offence, under national or international law, at the time when it was committed. Nor shall a heavier penalty be imposed than the one that was applicable at the time the penal offence was committed.

Article 12.
No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence, nor to attacks upon his honour and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attacks.

Article 13.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement and residence within the borders of each state.

(2) Everyone has the right to leave any country, including his own, and to return to his country.

Article 14.
(1) Everyone has the right to seek and to enjoy in other countries asylum from persecution.

(2) This right may not be invoked in the case of prosecutions genuinely arising from non-political crimes or from acts contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 15.
(1) Everyone has the right to a nationality.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his nationality nor denied the right to change his nationality.

Article 16.
(1) Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution.

(2) Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses.

(3) The family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.

Article 17.
(1) Everyone has the right to own property alone as well as in association with others.

(2) No one shall be arbitrarily deprived of his property.

Article 18.
Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief, and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief in teaching, practice, worship and observance.

Article 19.
Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers.

Article 20.
(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association.

(2) No one may be compelled to belong to an association.

Article 21.
(1) Everyone has the right to take part in the government of his country, directly or through freely chosen representatives.

(2) Everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country.

(3) The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret vote or by equivalent free voting procedures.

Article 22.
Everyone, as a member of society, has the right to social security and is entitled to realization, through national effort and international co-operation and in accordance with the organization and resources of each State, of the economic, social and cultural rights indispensable for his dignity and the free development of his personality.

Article 23.
(1) Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favourable conditions of work and to protection against unemployment.

(2) Everyone, without any discrimination, has the right to equal pay for equal work.

(3) Everyone who works has the right to just and favourable remuneration ensuring for himself and his family an existence worthy of human dignity, and supplemented, if necessary, by other means of social protection.

(4) Everyone has the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

Article 24.
Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours and periodic holidays with pay.

Article 25.
(1) Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.

(2) Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.

Article 26.
(1) Everyone has the right to education. Education shall be free, at least in the elementary and fundamental stages. Elementary education shall be compulsory. Technical and professional education shall be made generally available and higher education shall be equally accessible to all on the basis of merit.

(2) Education shall be directed to the full development of the human personality and to the strengthening of respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms. It shall promote understanding, tolerance and friendship among all nations, racial or religious groups, and shall further the activities of the United Nations for the maintenance of peace.

(3) Parents have a prior right to choose the kind of education that shall be given to their children.

Article 27.
(1) Everyone has the right freely to participate in the cultural life of the community, to enjoy the arts and to share in scientific advancement and its benefits.

(2) Everyone has the right to the protection of the moral and material interests resulting from any scientific, literary or artistic production of which he is the author.

Article 28.
Everyone is entitled to a social and international order in which the rights and freedoms set forth in this Declaration can be fully realized.

Article 29.
(1) Everyone has duties to the community in which alone the free and full development of his personality is possible.

(2) In the exercise of his rights and freedoms, everyone shall be subject only to such limitations as are determined by law solely for the purpose of securing due recognition and respect for the rights and freedoms of others and of meeting the just requirements of morality, public order and the general welfare in a democratic society.

(3) These rights and freedoms may in no case be exercised contrary to the purposes and principles of the United Nations.

Article 30.
Nothing in this Declaration may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or to perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein.

[Urban Rubble]

JustSoul


They have all immigrated right after finishing university in USSR , so they had education.

HAHAHAHAHAAAAAA&#33;&#33;&#33;

So what you&#39;re saying is, he benefitted from the Socialist system by getting a free education (which he could not have done under Capitalism) then he left the USSR, came here and made money off of the education he received because of Socialism.

So here&#39;s the trick if you want to make money under Capitalism:[B]Find a Socialist nation. Leech the system by getting your free education and then leaving without benefitting the Socialist society, then come to America and use your free knowledge. Bashing Socialism all the way.

So you&#39;re bashing Socialism, yet you just admitted it was the very reason for this man&#39;s success, sounds weird to me.

[JustSoul]

What stops you from geting education in the states? School is still free and if you go to uni you can take a loan or work in your spare time.

As they have proved to be sucessfull you just need talent,will to work and to a lesser degree education. There goes your evil capitalism theory.

[Sabocat]

Because for some people, the pursuit of food and shelter is more important to their immediate survival than an education. Once in that cycle, it&#39;s very hard to change. It&#39;s even more difficult today.

Education is a luxury for people that have a place to live. Try to enroll a kid in school with no address.

[JustSoul]

If you have no adress or family there are special goverment sponsored structures that take care of such kids. Hence even the "poor Russia" has them.

Bottom line is: If you are willing to work and learn hard you will sucseed. However you can sucseed with working not as hard too , but that will take a bit of luck.

[redstar2000]

More for JustSoul...how capitalism really works.


Banker says &#39;Parmalat tricked me&#39;

A former Bank of America employee under investigation for his role in the Parmalat affair has said he was "tricked" by the food group.

Luca Sala, formerly the head of the US bank&#39;s Italian corporate finance division, said both he and the bank were "defrauded".

In an interview with La Repubblica he also denied rigging financial markets to support the firm&#39;s securities.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/low/business/3386811.stm

Here&#39;s what JustSoul will say: "If you want to steal huge pots of money, get to work, you lazy bastard&#33;"

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The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas

[John Galt]

Originally posted by [email protected] 4 2004, 01:21 PM
It&#39;s pretty far removed from the visions of capitalism that our recent influx of Rand cultists have offered...perhaps due to the fact that real capitalism is "a very different animal" from the "Platonic capitalism" of their fantasies.

Just as real communism is different than the theory

[redstar2000]

Just as real communism is different than the theory.

Actually, real communism remains a hypothesis.

Putting that aside, however, how do the "faults" of "communism" justify your seeming adherence to a system that is admittedly a kleptocratic oligarchy?

In simple words, you&#39;ve signed on to a system of global organized crime. If you&#39;re being well-paid to do so, I can at least understand that.

But you come to this forum and express the desire to argue the "merits" of the blatantly indefensible.

As if capitalism were an ideal that was "worthy" of praise.

You are like some hard-line Stalinist in 1939...praising a system that the whole world has seen is not what it claims to be.

Even if you think communism "sucks"...why in the world would you defend capitalism?

http://anarchist-action.org/forums/images/smiles/redstar.gif

The RedStar2000 Papers (http://www.anarchist-action.org/marxists/redstar2000/)
A site about communist ideas