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Comrade-Z
18th March 2013, 23:15
The workplace to those who work it!: A market-socialist proposal for ending wage-slavery

When radical leftists speak of wage-slavery, part of the intention is to draw analogies between the unfreedom of chattel slavery and the unfreedom of wage-slavery. Subjectively, there are similarities in the experience of each. The main difference, of course, is that wage-slaves find themselves enslaved not to a single human master, but to a class of capitalists who collectively monopolize the means of fending off hunger, want, and ruin.

However, part of the use of the wage-slavery concept could also be to draw analogies between the post-emancipation goals of slaves and the post-emancipation goals of wage-slaves. As wage-slaves, we still haven't figured out what we plan on doing after our emancipation. How are we going to run society without capitalists? People debate various schemes (such as ParEcon), but there are not really any concrete schemes out there that fill us with much confidence that they will definitely work.

On this point, I propose that we should take inspiration from the straightforward slogan of pretty much every land-reform effort ever: The land to those who work it! Historically, whether it was the 40 acres and a mule that African-Americans never got, or the landed estates that the (formally) emancipated Russian serfs had to pay indemnities on for decades afterwards, reality has usually fallen far short of the ideal. But the ideal was always an elegantly simple one: the landor whatever the means of production in questionshould go to those who work it. And when this means of production was land, and when it actually was given to those who worked it...things worked. Economies did not collapse. Ex-slaves and ex-serfs did not become lazy bums. The land continued to be worked, and quite efficiently too. And the standard of living and level of freedom of the ex-slaves and ex-serfs improved dramatically.

If we apply this idea to wage-slavery, we have good reason to think that it will work, and that it will result in an appreciable improvement in the standard of living and freedom of the ex-wage-slaves.

Naturally, the idea of the workplace to those to work itgiving workers legal ownership of the means of production at which they happen to be working at the time of the emancipationrequires that there still be private property, a free market, and money after this emancipation. The point of this article is not to rule out the possibility of a completely communistic system without property or exchange where people took what they needed and provided to others what they saw fit to produce. Let us simply table this discussion of the plausibility of pure communism* for later discussion and at least try to find a form of emancipation from wage-slavery that we know will work, even if it is not ideal.

Having workers take over the workplaces at which they currently work would mean that, for smaller enterprises, everyone would directly vote on decisions in their workplace...such as workplace improvements (We need chai tea in the breakroom...), production improvements (We should put barcodes on all of our merchandise to speed the retail process along...), sales decisions (We should sell these shoes for $30...), profit share compensation for each job class (Typists each get 6 unit points of profit out of a current employee total of 200, or 3% of weekly profits...)...in short, everything that the boss currently decides. For larger enterprises, members might decide to elect instantly recallable delegates to workplace workers' councils to decide these things.

Otherwise, workplaces would function like workplaces do now. They would purchase raw materials (except for labor), produce commodities to sell on the market, and try to turn a profit that would then be shared out among the employees as they themselves saw fit.

At first glance, most communists would balk at this seemingly reactionary idea. You'll just turn every worker into a scheming, conniving, and inefficient petty-capitalist, they'll say. Capitalism would inevitably re-assert itself in no time! And indeed, the history of worker cooperatives, and even the self-management schemes of Tito's Yugoslavia, suggest that workers, when simply turned into owners of their workplaces amidst a continuing market economy, usually end up becoming petty-capitalists. Over time, new hires are hired on as ordinary wage-slaves with no say in the cooperative. The ownership and leadership of these enterprises usually becomes hereditary rather than elected. A generation later, hardly a trace of worker self-management remains.

Very well; let us learn from these mistakes. Law No. 1 after Emancipation: It is forbidden to enter into collective labor that habitually utilizes a common means of production (this excludes activity that uses only personal property, or services that a single person performs for another as an isolated, one-time event) without each member having an equal democratic say in the operation of that means of production and the distribution of the fruits thereof. Any person caught hiring someone without giving that person an equal say in the running of the enterprise, after a short apprenticing period delimited by law (say, a maximum of two weeks for any job), or any person caught working without demanding an equal say in the running of the enterprise, will be severely penalized (maybe fined and given probation for a first offense, then incarceration for repeat offenses). Trade unions might also see it fit to penalize such members and enterprises.

This takes care of formal power inequalities, but what about informal ones? What about a possible black market of workers who are so desperate for jobs that they will secretly agree to unequal power in the workplace in exchange for a wage (rather than a profit share), all the while playing along with superficial rituals of workplace democracy for the government or trade union inspectors? This is analogous to asking how we prevent people in the present from becoming so desperate that they sell themselves into slavery in order to get a bite to eat.

For one thing, it would be below the dignity of even the most starving homeless person in our present society to do such a thing; so would it be for someone to hire him/herself out as an unequal wage-slave in an enterprise after the emancipation.

Second, police and the legal system will not enforce slave contracts in the present era, just as the legal system would not enforce wage-slavery agreements after emancipation. So the employer of black market wage-slaves after the emancipation had better hope that the wage-slaves are a well-behaved lot because the state will not intervene (as it does now) to crack down on those workers if they get unruly; rather, the state, being alerted to their predicament, will actually legally enforce their equality and profit-sharing in that workplace that is guilty of the offense of employing them as wage-slaves.

Third, a worker would have to be really, really desperate to submit themselves to the humiliation of wage-slavery after the emancipation. In order to make sure no worker is ever that desperate, we would also have to have a Universal Basic Income, financed by taxes on the profits of workplaces. This Universal Basic Income might include housing, healthcare, and food. (These sectors of the economy might be simply run by the local and/or central government, rather than by the worker-owner cooperatives being described). Consider this Universal Basic Income Law No. 2 after Emancipation.

Although this arrangement will not produce perfect equality of living conditions among workers (some worker-owners might work at enterprises that are more profitable than others), nobody will starve, and more importantly, there will be relative equality of economic power among all workers everywhere. Every worker-owner will have proportional control over a means of production.

Over time, workers will compete to be accepted on at the more profitable companies. Worker-owners will try to do a good job at their work to make their enterprises profitable. The whole system has incentives that will be conducive to its efficiency.

Very well...this all sounds nice for a static economy...but what about a modern economy with technological innovations, with new start-ups and bankruptcies? What happens to workers who want to move on from an inefficient and relatively unprofitable business at which they unluckily happened to be working at the time of emancipation?

Let's see...we have already established that new hires must get completely equal ownership rights as existing hires at the new company, so these workers will be entitled to that at their next job as well. But what about the assets from the previous workplace? If we allow workers to simply pocket the cash from liquidating the means-of-production assets of failing firms, then workers will have an incentive to get hired onto a firm, declare a firm failing, liquidate the durable assets, and move on to the next business. Likewise, how is new investment to be handled? If a worker wants to launch a new start-up firm with some comrades, should we expect them to invest their own personal money, when a group of new hires might theoretically take over the business, kick the original founders out, sell off the durable assets, and move onto dismantling the next start-up? And how would one disentangle the personal money invested by the employees in an enterprise from any existing capital stock that they inherited when getting hired on at the enterprise? If we tried to keep track of this, the more recent hires would tend to have less personal money invested in a company than the more veteran hires. Veteran hires would have more of a financial stake in the company, and would (understandably) demand more control over production. This would eventually amount to the re-institution of capitalist shareholding.

This leads us to Law No. 3 after Emancipation: Worker-owners of enterprises have usufruct rights of the enterprises they control; that is, they are entitled to day-to-day control (usus) of the enterprise and the fruits (fruct) of the ongoing operations of that enterprise. They are also responsible for paying for the ongoing operating expenses of the enterprise out of the gross income of the enterprise (for example: the toilet paper in the employee bathroom). The fruits that the worker-owners of enterprises are entitled to are the net profits after subtracting ongoing habitual operating expenses from gross income.

The durable means of production of those enterprises (for example, the toilet in the bathroom) must not, however, be alienable. That is to say, the durable means of production of an enterprise (to be defined by law and government inspections) would belong to a separate accountessentially a non-transferable endowment. Any money from disinvestment (selling off parts of the durable means of production of an enterprise, such as the coffee maker in the break room) would go not to the current members of the enterprise, but into the endowment account. This money could be spent on purchasing other durable means of production (such as a toaster oven for the break room) for the enterprise, but not for funding the personal consumption of current members.

Likewise, current members would not be expected to divert any portion of personal wealth from ongoing profits towards investment in new capital equipment or the endowment fund (as any such money thus diverted would no longer be retrievable for personal consumption). In fact, they wouldn't be allowed to divert personal funds into the endowment fund even voluntarily, for the simple reason that the enterprises that agreed to voluntarily put some of their ongoing profits and personal wealth into the endowment fund for developing the companies' means of production might be able to expand more and out-compete companies that did not. In these successful companies, though, a feeling of possessiveness would grow towards the means of production in which the workers had personally invested. The existing worker-owners would, over time, agitate for legally revising the non-transferability of the endowment fund in favor of something like capitalist shareholding, which would disadvantage new hires and lead eventually to the restoration of capitalism.

No, instead, any new investment money would have to come from the government (via taxes) and be deposited into each enterprise's endowment fund (perhaps on an impartial basis, such as per number of registered workers at the enterprise, to avoid government corruption and favoritism in this highly sensitive lever of financial influence). If an enterprise completely shuts down, all funds collected in the endowment from selling off the remaining capital assets go back to the government. In addition, the government should be able to be petitioned with plans for new enterprises. In cases appearing to warrant it, an endowment with start-up capital funds would be given to the petitioning worker-owners to use for purchasing initial durable capital goods for the means of production (but not for pocketing for personal consumption). Direct ballot initiatives could also decide on funding such start-up projects. After start-up, these new enterprises would receive periodic endowment deposits from the government as any other enterprise.

In this way, individual enterprises would be responsible for operating businesses and accruing the resulting profits in a decentralized way (unlike under traditional state-socialism), but the government would be the sole legal investor in any means of production.

Government inspectors would be required to spot-check each company's accounting books from time to time to make sure that the number of employed workers was not being over-reported (if the government decides to use that as a criterion for how much to invest in each enterprise's endowments), and to make sure that money was not being diverted from the means-of-production endowment to the operating profitsand thus the personal consumption of the individual members. Are there ways this system could be abused? Sure. An enterprise could say, Oh, that machine broke during regular operation, and it had to be replaced with funds out of the endowment when in reality that machine never broke, and the enterprise's current members simply pocketed the endowment money. Such corruption might be rare or widespread, depending on the thoroughness of the government inspections, the culture of the new emancipated society, and the level of material desperation of its worker-owner members (which would presumably be low, with the Universal Basic Income in effect and a productive, technologically advanced infrastructure at our disposal).

The ability of the government to abuse this inspection power to oppress certain workers unfairly would depend on the transparency of the government bureaucracy and the political process. Obviously, we would want it all to be very transparent to public scrutiny, and we in the modern world would never tolerate anything like the secret police of the traditional state-socialist societies. At the first sign of any such bureaucratic degeneration, I would expect immediate working-class uprisings in defense of the emancipation.

As with the emancipation of the Russian serfs in 1863, a final question arises for our emancipation: do we compensate the former owners of the means of production? In my opinion, no. It would be like compensating former Southern slave-owners for their loss of slaves. If anything, they should have to pay us reparations. Only if we were feeling extraordinary pity towards the former capitalists, we might say yes.

However, the way in which we compensated the former owners in this case would be important. If we take out government loans to pay them off, they are in effect still functioning as capitalists; their money is still making more money, using the living labor of present and future taxpayers to fund their wealth. Instead, if we decide to compensate the former owners at all, it would have to take the form of a single, one-time payment in printed (and thereby devalued) currency. That way, they get to fund personal consumption at higher rates than others for some time, but eventually this wealth (already significantly devalued by inflation) will run out; their compensation does not become capitalmoney that makes more money by exploiting ongoing labor. If they want new wealth to replace wealth spent on ongoing personal consumption, they will have to work in a cooperative enterprise for it as a democratic worker-owner like everyone else. For the rest of the population, the value of their (much more meager holdings) also goes down with the devaluation, but more importantly, they now own the means of production, guaranteeing them the ability to make more wealth in the future. (Using made-up math, it might look something like this after the compensation and devaluation of the currency: Worker A owns $1,000. Capitalist A gets paid $1,000,000 in compensation for his/her enterprise (paid for by printing money). A loaf of bread suddenly costs $500 after inflation (which then, after that one-time printing of currency, stabilizes). But Worker A now earns $100,000 dollars a week from the ongoing operation of the enterprise that he/she now owns).

In conclusion, we know that markets work, more or less. We know that giving the means of production to those who work it has worked in the past. When paired with a democratic, transparent, instantly recallable, multi-party government in the political sphere, there is no reason I can see for why the economic system outlined above wouldn't workwhy this form of emancipation from wage-slavery wouldn't successfully dodge the twin perils of past efforts at emancipation: Leninist corruption, and reversion to capitalism.

And after this emancipation, we worker-owners will have practically all the leisure time in the world to figure out how pure communism might workand, more importantly, we will control the resources needed for trying out experiments in it. Perhaps what I have outlined above is the real transitional stage to communism that socialists have always searched for (if I may be so bold). Please point out any flaws in the above ideas in the comments below.

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*I could not resist offering some thoughts on this issue, so I have put this at the end. Regarding the plausibility of pure communism, we might conjecture that people won't become lazy bums when we take away direct work incentives, that people will still produce things to share. Just like ParEcon, it might work. The point is, we simply don't know. It really hasn't been tried, except maybe in embryonic form among the anarchists of the Spanish Civil War. Any speculation about how well a completely communistic system of production and exchange would function is, right now, just thatspeculation. To most people at the current time, it will seem like implausible speculation. Even I am skeptical, and I used to be a confidently convinced anarchist-communist a few years ago. As I have since realized, even primitively communistic hunter-gatherer societies had prestige, shame, and reputation as forms of social currency to incentivize socially-useful behavior. The more you take away impersonal forms of social currency, the more you lean on personal forms of social currency; speaking as someone who has participated in a number of collective projects during my years of activism, I can tell you that at its worst this personal form of social currency can start to feel like something out of Arthur Miller's The Crucible or Nathaniel Hawthorne's The Scarlet Lettereveryone looking over each other's shoulder to make sure that everyone is doing what they are supposed to be doing, and using shame and guilt rather than money to incentivize conformity to social expectations of work. My suspicion is that a purely communistic society that gets rid of impersonal incentives for work is going to end up relying, whether the people in it consciously realize it or not, on these implicit personal incentives. And I'm not sure that that is much of an improvement over impersonal incentives. The former actually sounds a lot more passive-aggressive than money, which at least is upfront about giving people incentive to work, or else...

===

Note: This article is of my own authorship.

ed miliband
18th March 2013, 23:22
Otherwise, workplaces would function like workplaces do now. They would purchase raw materials (except for labor), produce commodities to sell on the market, and try to turn a profit that would then be shared out among the employees as they themselves saw fit.

okay, so you're more or less describing capitalism except i get to manage my own exploitation -- with a "government inspector" looking over my shoulder from time to time.

how appealing.

Tim Cornelis
18th March 2013, 23:28
Perhaps what I have outlined above is the real “transitional stage to communism” that socialists have always searched for (if I may be so bold).

No. While some market elements will inevitable penetrate into the transient period between capitalism and communism, market socialism in itself is workerism where each worker individually or within its narrow collective/cooperative aspires to its own short-term interests. The construction of communism requires general class interests be elevated above the interests of sections of the working class or particular industries and trades. The market under workers control is self-perpetuating by vice of profit maximising. This will take precedent over its abolition and hence market socialism, or rather self-managed capitalism, cannot function as a transient period between capitalism and communism.

Comrade-Z
19th March 2013, 00:08
okay, so you're more or less describing capitalism except i get to manage my own exploitation -- with a "government inspector" looking over my shoulder from time to time.

how appealing.

How is it capitalism? Who are the capitalists in this system? Where are the wage-workers, the proletarians? Who is exploiting whom? You say that you get to "manage your own exploitation." Well, who or what is exploiting you in this system?


While some market elements will inevitable penetrate into the transient period between capitalism and communism, market socialism in itself is workerism where each worker individually or within its narrow collective/cooperative aspires to its own short-term interests. The construction of communism requires general class interests be elevated above the interests of sections of the working class or particular industries and trades.

The general class interests of the working class in this scenario are:
1. To get rid of the capitalist class and become the ruling class (done).
2. To have a well-functioning, efficient economy responding to what people want produced in a simple and timely manner. The latter general interest is served by each worker aspiring to his/her short-term interests of maximizing his/her enterprise's profitsproducing cheaply and efficiently (with as little waste of others' resources) what people want and need.

People will be able to pay for what they want and need because income will be much more equal than under capitalismpartly thanks to the Universal Basic Income, partly because everyone is a part-owner of a wealth-producing enterprise.


The market under workers control is self-perpetuating by vice of profit maximising. This will take precedent over its abolition and hence market socialism, or rather self-managed capitalism, cannot function as a transient period between capitalism and communism.

I'm not sure what you mean by "vice of profit maximising."

If I were a prosperous worker at an above-averagely profitable self-managed business, I might still see reasons to aspire to a purely communist society: getting rid of inefficiencies having to do with competition producing redundancies in the economy, being able to get rid of police and prisons due to not having to guard my property, being able to know that I could always work on what I really wanted to work on and still make a living...as long as I was sure that this pure communism would WORK (that is, not cause people to stop producing stuff and/or not make the communication of wants and needs in the economy hopelessly inefficient).

Tim Cornelis
19th March 2013, 00:34
How is it capitalism? Who are the capitalists in this system? Where are the wage-workers, the proletarians? Who is exploiting whom? You say that you get to "manage your own exploitation." Well, who or what is exploiting you in this system?

Market forces will compel workers to extend their working day and lower their wages to stay competitive, thus they become to "exploit themselves." The workers become the collective capitalist actor, engaging in generalised commodity production.


The general class interests of the working class in this scenario are:
1. To get rid of the capitalist class and become the ruling class (done).
2. To have a well-functioning, efficient economy responding to what people want produced in a simple and timely manner. The latter general interest is served by each worker aspiring to his/her short-term interests of maximizing his/her enterprise's profitsproducing cheaply and efficiently (with as little waste of others' resources) what people want and need.

Assuming that market socialism is your end goal that is. If we assume market socialism is an intermediate stage, then my argument applies. The short-term interest for profits overrides the long-term interest in communism.


I'm not sure what you mean by "vice of profit maximising."

I meant it as in 'By virtue of...' by vice off. Profit maximising, the aspiration to maximise profits.


If I were a prosperous worker at an above-averagely profitable self-managed business, I might still see reasons to aspire to a purely communist society: getting rid of inefficiencies having to do with competition producing redundancies in the economy, being able to get rid of police and prisons due to not having to guard my property, being able to know that I could always work on what I really wanted to work on and still make a living...as long as I was sure that this pure communism would WORK (that is, not cause people to stop producing stuff and/or not make the communication of wants and needs in the economy hopelessly inefficient).

This is because your long-term interest is communism, but your short-term interest is the creation of profits, which, due to market forces and the time scale of interests, overrides the aim of communism.

cyu
19th March 2013, 01:22
Some of this has recently been covered here http://www.revleft.com/vb/italy-cooperatives-brighter-t179108/index.html

ckaihatsu
19th March 2013, 01:34
I appreciate the radical reformism of this proposal, but have to point out that, at best, it falls somewhere between syndicalism and Stalinism on the political spectrum:


[3] Ideologies & Operations -- Fundamentals

http://s6.postimage.org/cpkm723u5/3_Ideologies_Operations_Fundamentals.jpg (http://postimage.org/image/cpkm723u5/)


The fundamental shortcoming is that there is no resolving of the divide between the private sector and the public sector -- if laborers are to be individualistically motivated by striving for 'in-house' profit, yet of a kind that is firewalled from influencing government, then it makes the whole scheme feel 'intramural' and childish, as if one is working for the sake of winning a toy at the carnival.

How *would* social prestige be seen, then -- ? Would a sacrosanct governmental bureaucratic position be more prestigious because of its inviolate function for society, or would the 'big winner' worker-toiler be held in higher esteem -- ?

And, as Tim Cornelis points out, there would also be the unresolved dialectical friction over historical progress:





[A]t any given point in the revolution to surpass commodity production the political question will be: "Do we push on ahead to politically collectivize more production, or do we rest and capitulate to the capitalist way of doing things by trading with them?"

Yet_Another_Boring_Marxist
19th March 2013, 01:43
Erm, pardon me but I don't think "Stalinism" (which isn't a real thing) can be said to be about decentralized planning.

ckaihatsu
19th March 2013, 02:12
Erm, pardon me but I don't think "Stalinism" (which isn't a real thing) can be said to be about decentralized planning.


It *is* Stalinism, or bureaucratic collectivism, since profits would only accumulate in-house, similar to the reputation system of number of 'Thanks' received by a user here at RevLeft.

All actual financial underwriting of enterprises would be in the hands of a centralized state authority since it wouldn't be in the hands of the employees:





If a worker wants to launch a new start-up firm with some comrades, should we expect them to invest their own personal money, when a group of new hires might theoretically take over the business, kick the original founders out, sell off the durable assets, and move onto dismantling the next start-up? And how would one disentangle the personal money invested by the employees in an enterprise from any existing capital stock that they inherited when getting hired on at the enterprise? If we tried to keep track of this, the more recent hires would tend to have less personal money invested in a company than the more veteran hires. Veteran hires would have more of a financial stake in the company, and would (understandably) demand more control over production. This would eventually amount to the re-institution of capitalist shareholding.




That is to say, the durable means of production of an enterprise (to be defined by law and government inspections) would belong to a separate accountessentially a non-transferable endowment. Any money from disinvestment (selling off parts of the durable means of production of an enterprise, such as the coffee maker in the break room) would go not to the current members of the enterprise, but into the endowment account. This money could be spent on purchasing other durable means of production (such as a toaster oven for the break room) for the enterprise, but not for funding the personal consumption of current members.

Likewise, current members would not be expected to divert any portion of personal wealth from ongoing profits towards investment in new capital equipment or the endowment fund (as any such money thus diverted would no longer be retrievable for personal consumption). In fact, they wouldn't be allowed to divert personal funds into the endowment fund even voluntarily, for the simple reason that the enterprises that agreed to voluntarily put some of their ongoing profits and personal wealth into the endowment fund for developing the companies' means of production might be able to expand more and out-compete companies that did not.

bcbm
19th March 2013, 03:08
Having workers take over the workplaces at which they currently work would mean that, for smaller enterprises, everyone would directly vote on decisions in their workplace...such as workplace improvements (“We need chai tea in the breakroom...”), production improvements (“We should put barcodes on all of our merchandise to speed the retail process along...”), sales decisions (“We should sell these shoes for $30...”), profit share compensation for each job class (“Typists each get 6 unit points of profit out of a current employee total of 200, or 3% of weekly profits...”)...in short, everything that the boss currently decides. For larger enterprises, members might decide to elect instantly recallable delegates to workplace workers' councils to decide these things.

Otherwise, workplaces would function like workplaces do now.

i suspect that in many jobs, we don't so much want 'workplaces to function as they do now, but with a little democracy' as to burn them down and use our lives for something more desirable

Ravachol
19th March 2013, 03:13
If this is what I wanted I'd start my own business or co-op. In fact, capitalism is doing just this, expelling large segments of workers in stable 'core' jobs to the casualised periphery of temping contracts and being 'self-employed'.

Os Cangaceiros
19th March 2013, 03:22
Isn't this kind of what Michael Albert wants in regards to "parecon"?

Man, there will be so many meetings! I hate workplace meetings, although luckily I haven't had to endure many of them.

bcbm
19th March 2013, 03:25
Man, there will be so many meetings! I hate workplace meetings, although luckily I haven't had to endure many of them.

man collective meetings for stuff i like and care about are brutal as fuck, i can't even imagine a workplace collective meeting.

cyu
19th March 2013, 10:07
i can't even imagine a workplace collective meeting


There'll be drink, there'll be steak fries, there'll be music and attractive people. There won't be people who can fire you for embarrassing yourself.

It's gonna be one big communist "party" ;)

http://img0.etsystatic.com/000/0/5285044/il_fullxfull.271917800.jpg

Jimmie Higgins
19th March 2013, 11:59
Isn't this kind of what Michael Albert wants in regards to "parecon"?

Man, there will be so many meetings! I hate workplace meetings, although luckily I haven't had to endure many of them.

Workplace meetings where workers are managing their own exploitation and in competition with other workers for maximizing excahnge value would probably be pretty horrible. Even the managers at my job hate their meetings because it's basically a bunch of dictates from upper management that they now have to force onto us no matter how unworkable of a policy it is. Most union meetings now are also tedious as shit for similar reasons of a lack of meaningful democracy from the rank and file.

However, workplace meetings for collective and democratic production however are a necessity for socialism IMO. If people are really organizing the conditions of their work (rather than managing conditions dictated by the logic of capital accumulation) then it might be contentious and tedious at times, but it would be empowering because you are able to have input into conditions that impact your life.

On a side note, I hear that there are some in the Cuban leadership who argue for increased worker's management. But like this idea outlined in the first post, it would be workers managing conditions that are not really under their control... in this way "worker's management" without socialism is like political republic/democracy without socialism: we just get to vote on how our exploitation and repression are managed.

Jimmie Higgins
19th March 2013, 14:58
How is it capitalism? Who are the capitalists in this system? Where are the wage-workers, the proletarians? Who is exploiting whom? You say that you get to "manage your own exploitation." Well, who or what is exploiting you in this system?Capitalism is a set of relations and historically Capitalism has existed without actual capitalists proper running it. It can be state berurocrats or even feudal ruling groups who organize these kinds of things - eventually they may become the capitalists or be taken over by them (like in Japan or the English aristocracy or USSR communist party muckety-mucks).

Who is being exploited? The producers - they just must choose to do so in a petty-bourgois sort of way.

The problems of the market are not "technical" problems of unbalanced organization - the problems are the result of pressures and contradictions of the market itself.

"we know the market works" - yeah it works at amassing surplus value, it doesn't work at meeting needs and wants of people.

ckaihatsu
19th March 2013, 15:04
Workplace meetings where workers are managing their own exploitation and in competition with other workers for maximizing excahnge value would probably be pretty horrible.




On a side note, I hear that there are some in the Cuban leadership who argue for increased worker's management. But like this idea outlined in the first post, it would be workers managing conditions that are not really under their control... in this way "worker's management" without socialism is like political republic/democracy without socialism: we just get to vote on how our exploitation and repression are managed.


It's for these reasons that the mere *mention* of 'workplace democracy' is immediately met with scowls and skepticism, since it's a mental struggle just to imagine what it *could* look like in a genuine form.

Comrade-Z
19th March 2013, 23:42
I'm glad this post is generating some discussion. :)


Market forces will compel workers to extend their working day and lower their wages to stay competitive, thus they become to "exploit themselves." The workers become the collective capitalist actor, engaging in generalised commodity production.

Compelling workers to extend their working days is the intention behind the market mechanism. It is to make sure that we all don't become lazy bums. But that said, there's no reason why we couldn't all agree to a cap on the working days we put on ourselves as a "fair playing field," through government legislation. People caught working over the cap could be penalized.

Also, there's no way workers can "lower their wages." What they earn in profit goes to their personal consumption, end of story. They are not allowed to re-invest their own profits back into their capital equipment, or to re-invest this money in interest bearing loans (I forgot to mention that--see below). Only the government is allowed to invest in capital equipment.


man collective meetings for stuff i like and care about are brutal as fuck, i can't even imagine a workplace collective meeting.

If people want, they can elect a trusted (but always instantly recallable) workplace "mayor" to decide things. The difference from capitalist one-man management would be, when he/she starts padding his/her profit share at the expense of yours or starts doing something else you don't like, you can immediately vote someone else in or decide immediately to go back to meetings and councils.


It *is* Stalinism, or bureaucratic collectivism, since profits would only accumulate in-house, similar to the reputation system of number of 'Thanks' received by a user here at RevLeft.

All actual financial underwriting of enterprises would be in the hands of a centralized state authority since it wouldn't be in the hands of the employees:

When you say that profits would only accumulate in-house, I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you keeping in mind the fact that the worker-owners could go out and use those profits for personal consumption? That seems a bit more significant than getting a "thumbs up." Some workers could live very lavishly indeed, if their business were profitable and if their co-workers voted for them to have a high share of the profits. The only thing that they couldn't do is use these profits for further re-investment, employing others, or loaning to others.

(Oh yeah, I forgot to mention in my original post that "the government being the sole legal investor" would entail that people would not be allowed to issue interest-bearing loans to one another (or rather, law would not protect the interest on such loans), because an interest-bearing loan is an investment that only makes sense to offer if you plan on the other party being able to work to pay it back and then some. In effect, you are exploiting them by proxy. That would not be allowed.

Also, I want to make it clear that when I say that the government would be the only legal investor, what I mean is that only the government could put money into the endowment funds. The government would not directly control how such funds were then used, as long as they were used for purchasing some type of durable means of production that stayed at the company. Whether that would be a new machine, a new vacuum cleaner for vacuuming the break room, whatever, the occasional government inspectors wouldn't care. If you are using the endowment funds inefficiently and your company is suffering because of it, then that's the company's problem. The companies that don't use this money well will naturally fold, sell off their durable capital assets (this would have to be closely inspected, or just managed by the government itself, to make sure people did not hook up colleagues with sweetheart deals on equipment being liquidated), and they'd have to look for a partnership at another cooperative, while in the meantime they'd have to live on their savings and the Universal Basic Income.

ckaihatsu
20th March 2013, 00:38
It *is* Stalinism, or bureaucratic collectivism, since profits would only accumulate in-house, similar to the reputation system of number of 'Thanks' received by a user here at RevLeft.





When you say that profits would only accumulate in-house, I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you keeping in mind the fact that the worker-owners could go out and use those profits for personal consumption?


Okay -- that wasn't exactly clear. It seemed to me that maybe the worker-owners would be building up profits to create endowments (market capitalizations) for new, offshoot worker-companies.

But then this raises the question of where the funding *does* come for new companies -- if it's only in the hands of the government, would there be taxes levied on all profits or revenue for the sake of economic expansion?

I'll maintain that this would still be bureaucratic collectivism since a substitutionist state authority would oversee all matters relating to capital.





That seems a bit more significant than getting a "thumbs up." Some workers could live very lavishly indeed, if their business were profitable and if their co-workers voted for them to have a high share of the profits. The only thing that they couldn't do is use these profits for further re-investment, employing others, or loaning to others.


Okay, understood.





All actual financial underwriting of enterprises would be in the hands of a centralized state authority since it wouldn't be in the hands of the employees:





(Oh yeah, I forgot to mention in my original post that "the government being the sole legal investor" would entail that people would not be allowed to issue interest-bearing loans to one another (or rather, law would not protect the interest on such loans), because an interest-bearing loan is an investment that only makes sense to offer if you plan on the other party being able to work to pay it back and then some. In effect, you are exploiting them by proxy. That would not be allowed.

Also, I want to make it clear that when I say that the government would be the only legal investor, what I mean is that only the government could put money into the endowment funds. The government would not directly control how such funds were then used, as long as they were used for purchasing some type of durable means of production that stayed at the company. Whether that would be a new machine, a new vacuum cleaner for vacuuming the break room, whatever, the occasional government inspectors wouldn't care. If you are using the endowment funds inefficiently and your company is suffering because of it, then that's the company's problem. The companies that don't use this money well will naturally fold, sell off their durable capital assets (this would have to be closely inspected, or just managed by the government itself, to make sure people did not hook up colleagues with sweetheart deals on equipment being liquidated), and they'd have to look for a partnership at another cooperative, while in the meantime they'd have to live on their savings and the Universal Basic Income.


Since this model relies on competitiveness among the companies, other posters' points about self-exploitation remain valid -- worker-companies desiring to remain competitive and profit-making will have to cut expenses and be leaner, starting with labor costs, or wages. In effect workers would be gambling on their own collective labor- and business-effectiveness in the marketplace, having to risk possibly slavery-like conditions in the hopes of business success and personal profit pay-offs. So, even with the society's overall infrastructure administration being a relatively level playing field, the capitalist competitive dynamic remains on the ground, revealing a result that is still very much dog-eat-dog.

magicshoemonkey
20th March 2013, 02:29
This reminds me a lot (a whole lot) of the system described in After Capitalism by David Schweickart. As I read it, I thought it might have some value in the sense of structure (communally-owned industry run democratically and funded through a federalist state), but then he starts adding bits and pieces of capitalism, to the point where I thought it really is just social democracy plus: capitalism run by committee. It's better than neo-liberalism, sure, I suppose, but I think we can do better. I think that we have an idea of what sort system might work as a socialist system; the problems are not that they don't have viability so much as they don't have viability in our current world. We need to work hard to get there, from the ground up, imo.

The thing I find really interesting is your footnote about personal forms of social currency. That's worth discussing; I think there is an element of competitiveness in human nature that leads to the kind of backstabbing jealousy you seem to be describing. But I don't think human nature is immutable. It's a product of an environment that rewards that kind of behavior; it would take a long period of constant reeducation to eliminate.

bcbm
20th March 2013, 09:34
Compelling workers to extend their working days is the intention behind the market mechanism. It is to make sure that we all don't become lazy bums.

but so what if we did?


Also, there's no way workers can "lower their wages." What they earn in profit goes to their personal consumption, end of story.

so if you work in a profitable industry it is your lucky day but if you work at a tiny diner barely making costs you're fucked? great.


If people want, they can elect a trusted (but always instantly recallable) workplace "mayor" to decide things. The difference from capitalist one-man management would be, when he/she starts padding his/her profit share at the expense of yours or starts doing something else you don't like, you can immediately vote someone else in or decide immediately to go back to meetings and councils.

this doesnt address my first comment though. a 'self managed' shitty job is still a shitty job. who wants to self manage a bauxite mine or a sweatshop or a call center or a mcdonalds?


When you say that profits would only accumulate in-house, I'm not really sure what you mean. Are you keeping in mind the fact that the worker-owners could go out and use those profits for personal consumption?

if theyre lucky to make enough.


Some workers could live very lavishly indeed, if their business were profitable and if their co-workers voted for them to have a high share of the profits.

this is another huge problem here, some people are still getting totally fucked by this 'socialist' system.

AConfusedSocialDemocrat
20th March 2013, 09:49
I really love autogestion and co-operatives, however, I feel with this proposal we have not yet abolished capitalism, but are still trying to reform it (capitalism with a human face). And so I believe we would lose in the long run when competing against capitalists, as autogestion is concerned with the individual's well being, rather than profit (Marx pointing out that the capitalist who doesn't seek maximum profits will be replaced by one that does), and also these workers would still suffer from recessions just as much as traditional business models (as we saw in Jugoslavia).

black magick hustla
20th March 2013, 09:49
i don't wanna piss on the op's parade, cuz it's hard to see what's wrong about his proposal if ur under the spell of typical leftist mythology and argumentation. public left wing intellectuals and student-activists etc. basically argue that the problem of the present society is that it is not democratic enough, that the underclass doesn't have enough voice in the government etc. so it seems pretty common sensical that things would be better if the "underdog" had more power, things where more democratic etc.


however, what's miserable about capitalism is much more than just the quantitative argument that worker's don't get back the value of their labor, because the solution is not really to remove quantitatively that "exploitation" and make things more egalitarian. i think what's radical about marx's critique of capitalism is not necessarily that worker's get "the surplus" extracted from them, but the fact that there is value/money in the first place. everything in this world is made for the purpose of capital's valorization. what oncee seemed like a "satisfying job", like artesans making whole shoes, has been fragmented into underpaid children pressing bottons in a factory in malasya. once upon a time, discussing politics meant a literate worker reading a radical newspaper and circles of people discussing and getting mad around a soapbox - now it means seeing dudes in the tv, etc. everything is broken down and reconstituted in the logic of making more $$$. "self-management" of this places implies ppl getting overburdened by shitty white collar paper pushing while at the same time retaining their other shitty work responsabilities etc.

black magick hustla
20th March 2013, 09:55
the miserable desert of capital's material community

ckaihatsu
20th March 2013, 20:00
Okay, for the sake of clarification, I'm noticing some aspects in the proposal that speak to the concerns I and others have raised:





[There's] the question of where the funding *does* come for new companies -- if it's only in the hands of the government, would there be taxes levied on all profits or revenue for the sake of economic expansion?





[A]ny new investment money would have to come from the government (via taxes) and be deposited into each enterprise's endowment fund


---





Since this model relies on competitiveness among the companies, other posters' points about self-exploitation remain valid -- worker-companies desiring to remain competitive and profit-making will have to cut expenses and be leaner, starting with labor costs, or wages.





Also, there's no way workers can "lower their wages." What they earn in profit goes to their personal consumption, end of story.


---





so if you work in a profitable industry it is your lucky day but if you work at a tiny diner barely making costs you're fucked? great.





[W]orkers [may] want to move on from an inefficient and relatively unprofitable business at which they unluckily happened to be working at the time of emancipation


---


So my only remaining concern would be about the overall policy of collective governance, as over the administration of capital / endowments / (market capitalizations) -- what would be the *political* basis of representation for all worker-owners at all workplaces throughout (particularly factories) -- ?

In other words, how would this initial policy framework be popularly upheld, and what mechanisms would be in place for amending it or fine-tuning it, if need be -- ?

Yuppie Grinder
20th March 2013, 20:01
Proudhonism is dead. The point is not to give capital new management, it's to kill capital.

ckaihatsu
20th March 2013, 20:14
Proudhonism is dead. The point is not to give capital new management, it's to kill capital.


Appreciated, but if capital is entirely bureaucratically -- or, better yet, proletarian-ly -- controlled, then it ceases to be finance capital and just becomes a formalization / quantification of a *political* policy.

I have my *own* model, at my blog entries, but this is the most viable post-capitalist model I've seen so far, other than my own.

Comrade-Z
21st March 2013, 00:48
Comrades, after thinking this system through a whole bunch, I've come up with a possibly fatal flaw. The gist of it is that there would still be class struggle under this system that would possibly result in the restoration of capitalism for a section of workers.

The class struggle would be between workers in the private sector at the democratically owned enterprises, and the workers in the public sector providing the services for the Universal Basic Income. The public sector workers would have to be wage-workers working under supervising officials who would, in turn, be directly responsible to the public through elections, recalls, etc.

So far, so good. But the problem is, it would be in the public's interest to try to get these public sector workers to work for as little as possible--essentially making the government's provision of the Universal Basic Income services (food, housing, etc.) a for-profit venture. This would allow the government to take less taxes out of company profits (and thus the personal consumption of the private sector workers) and still have the same amount for depositing in the endowments for investment.

With the Universal Basic Income available to all people, people would not work in the public sector for low wages; they will rather want to hold out for work in the private sector and live off the Universal Basic Income in the meantime. People would only work in the public sector for high wages, especially since they will actually have to follow orders rather than have self-management.

Over time, the private sector workers will resent having to pay higher taxes to fund these high wages for these Universal Basic Income services. These private sector workers would try to endeavor to make the phrase "public servant" into a literal job description for the public workers, reducing them to a level of servitude. Here are some ways the private sector workers (who will outnumber the public sector workers) could use the perfectly democratic political organs to accomplish this:
A. Impose some sort of "militarization of labor" on the public sector workers so that they can be paid less.
B. Employ convict labor for the public sector services, which will create an incentive for there to be more convicts, leading to the public to support measures to artificially inflate the number of criminals by inventing crimes and framing people (think GULAG).
C. Take away the Universal Basic Income from some workers to force them to work in the public sector for low wages out of desperation (as most workers work now under capitalism).

Only if these measures were constitutionally forbidden, and only if the public sector workers were organized and threatened to disrupt the essential services over which they had control (like food, healthcare, transport, communications) if threatened with any of these measures, would the private sector workers be forced to back down and put up with paying high wages (competitive with the average profit rates of working in the private sector) to the public sector workers.

In short, there would be class tension. Society would not be perfectly harmonious. It would be at risk of restoring a sector of capitalism in the economy (in the form of the democratic state acting as a capitalist exploiting its wage-workers) at any time.

Unfortunately, this system that I have worked out might be fatally unstable.

Raúl Duke
21st March 2013, 01:09
While it may be possible that initially in the revolutionary process something that you describe may "come to being..."

In the end we desire to end capitalism and all it entails. None of this "market" socialism, that's not a desirable end-goal for particular reasons. Nor is it something we should be advocating per se, it's probably the first form a revolutionary society will assume once we all realize that we just happened to seize the means of production but we should focus on advocating for communism all the while. We must go farther and eliminate class and capital. Now on to the reasons, one of those reasons bcbm already beat me to it, there's a lot of shit work, as the work is currently constituted in capitalism (something bmh mentions), that will stay shitty and undesirable even if its "self-managed" it will still suck balls. Another thing is, as others mentioned, what if your workplace isn't "market sustainable?" Do we starve if our "workplace" goes bankrupt? There's a lot not being said by market socialists. Finally, and I'm not sure if this was mentioned explicitly, but in what some of us think as revolution we seek to end not just the bourgeoisie or a movement to "have more democracy" but a movement towards the end of classes and capital, where we will no longer be proletarians but just people.

The Garbage Disposal Unit
21st March 2013, 01:24
I'm going to make two very short interjections:

1. Capitalism isn't defined by capitalists per se, as individuals, but the logic of capital which tends to create them. Classes don't have the sort of agency you seem to suggest, but rather they coalesce out of sets of economic/power relations. So, while this might be a brilliant plan for managing a market without capitalists in the short term, I've got $5 that says it'll go the way Tito's Yugoslavia even without American military hegemony breathing down its neck on the basis of its internal logic.

2. The problem with "Workplaces to the workers!" is precisely this - it leads to this sort of conclusion. Rather, "everything to everyone" is key. As long as "workplaces" maintain their peculiar relationship to "workers" the basis for capitalist restoration won't be undermined. For some interesting thoughts on this, I highly recommend Worker-Student Action Committees, France May '68 (http://libcom.org/library/worker-student-action-committees-france-1968-perlman-gregoire).

bcbm
21st March 2013, 02:47
Okay, for the sake of clarification, I'm noticing some aspects in the proposal that speak to the concerns I and others have raised:



so if you work in a profitable industry it is your lucky day but if you work at a tiny diner barely making costs you're fucked? great.





[W]orkers [may] want to move on from an inefficient and relatively unprofitable business at which they unluckily happened to be working at the time of emancipation

sorry but this sounds pretty much like what defenders of capitalism say now- 'if you dont like your shitty minimum wage job, find a better one!' and we can see how well that works

ckaihatsu
21st March 2013, 03:05
sorry but this sounds pretty much like what defenders of capitalism say now- 'if you dont like your shitty minimum wage job, find a better one!' and we can see how well that works


Of course, but in the context of Comrade-Z's model here, the worker-owners would be *empowered*, both on an individual basis, *and* collectively, to coordinate and implement a combination of labor and infrastructure that would be more effective than the default. Since there would be no private property or finance capital, and all infrastructure would be under bureaucratic-collectivist administration, 'profit' would equate to 'material success' in terms of workplace self-administration and rational use of assets and resources.

Comrade-Z is correct to point out the commonly understood shortfalls of such an overall bureaucratic collectivism (or Stalinism), though, namely that mass-individuated self-interest would trump mass concern for the collectivized infrastructure, giving way to the political force of (re-)privatization -- back to syndicalism and worse.

bcbm
21st March 2013, 03:17
Of course, but in the context of Comrade-Z's model here, the worker-owners would be *empowered*, both on an individual basis, *and* collectively, to coordinate and implement a combination of labor and infrastructure that would be more effective than the default. Since there would be no private property or finance capital, and all infrastructure would be under bureaucratic-collectivist administration, 'profit' would equate to 'material success' in terms of workplace self-administration and rational use of assets and resources.


unless it 'didnt' and then you get to go struggle to find another collective to take you on board.

ckaihatsu
21st March 2013, 03:35
unless it 'didnt' and then you get to go struggle to find another collective to take you on board.


In many ways this model is like an entrepreneur's dream since it enables and motivates grassroots initiatives over activities of production. This would all be *materially* possible with today's bulk material capacities and capabilities, but in terms of *politics* it externalizes all of the responsibilities, or downside, onto the bureaucratic administration.

That's the most I can say since there's no point in arguing with you within the context of a political model that's fundamentally flawed.

Comrade-Z
21st March 2013, 21:56
Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that, given that a political/legal order were set in stone, this system I've outlined above would economically work.

The problem is, as any Marxist knows, the economics inevitably push back on the political/legal order. The laws and regulations that I've outlined above, while they would work as intended insofar as they were implemented and followed, would tend to be evaded and/or revised because certain individuals would see an interest in doing so.

For example, more prosperous workers would not, over time, be content with merely spending their money on consumption. They would find a way, either illegally, or through bribing officials and/or media outlets to influence legislation, to invest some of this money as capital, even though I've explicitly outlawed that in this system. It would take an incredibly class-conscious populace on the lookout for these things and a ferocious bureaucracy to prevent this corruption and degeneration back into capitalism, and at some point the battle would probably be lost. :(

Oh well...they were some neat ideas while they lasted....

ckaihatsu
21st March 2013, 22:27
Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that, given that a political/legal order were set in stone, this system I've outlined above would economically work.

The problem is, as any Marxist knows, the economics inevitably push back on the political/legal order. The laws and regulations that I've outlined above, while they would work as intended insofar as they were implemented and followed, would tend to be evaded and/or revised because certain individuals would see an interest in doing so.

For example, more prosperous workers would not, over time, be content with merely spending their money on consumption. They would find a way, either illegally, or through bribing officials and/or media outlets to influence legislation, to invest some of this money as capital, even though I've explicitly outlawed that in this system. It would take an incredibly class-conscious populace on the lookout for these things and a ferocious bureaucracy to prevent this corruption and degeneration back into capitalism, and at some point the battle would probably be lost. :(

Oh well...they were some neat ideas while they lasted....


Hey, well, for whatever it's worth, *I* voted for ya -- !


= D

human strike
21st March 2013, 22:49
Hooray for democratised capitalism! ... Wait, what?

Yuppie Grinder
22nd March 2013, 05:53
Yeah, I've come to the conclusion that, given that a political/legal order were set in stone, this system I've outlined above would economically work.

The problem is, as any Marxist knows, the economics inevitably push back on the political/legal order. The laws and regulations that I've outlined above, while they would work as intended insofar as they were implemented and followed, would tend to be evaded and/or revised because certain individuals would see an interest in doing so.

For example, more prosperous workers would not, over time, be content with merely spending their money on consumption. They would find a way, either illegally, or through bribing officials and/or media outlets to influence legislation, to invest some of this money as capital, even though I've explicitly outlawed that in this system. It would take an incredibly class-conscious populace on the lookout for these things and a ferocious bureaucracy to prevent this corruption and degeneration back into capitalism, and at some point the battle would probably be lost. :(

Oh well...they were some neat ideas while they lasted....

You're problem is that you're drawing blueprints for a dream society. You can't just implement any economic system you want. You can't just force whatever imagined scenario you deem to be just upon reality and expect it to conform. There are rules to how superstructure evolves.

ckaihatsu
22nd March 2013, 07:20
You're problem is that you're drawing blueprints for a dream society. You can't just implement any economic system you want. You can't just force whatever imagined scenario you deem to be just upon reality and expect it to conform. There are rules to how superstructure evolves.


The 'evolving' / revolutionizing of the superstructure is going to be subject to actual conditions as they develop and play-out, and also to the *subjective* factor -- the subjective factor includes *right now* and what we can agree on within our own camp for both a way forward and a final destination.

It's easy for *anyone* to blithely dismiss others' efforts at articulating their revolutionary politics, including what's worth fighting for, but we should tolerate such efforts at societal planning, if only for the sake of discussion and clarification, within our own tendencies.

cyu
22nd March 2013, 18:17
more prosperous workers would not, over time, be content with merely spending their money on consumption. They would find a way, either illegally, or through bribing officials and/or media outlets to influence legislation, to invest some of this money as capital, even though I've explicitly outlawed that in this system.

I would say no - even spending on consumption is not part of human nature, but rather it is conditioned into consumers by advertising.

This isn't to say that economic inequality isn't bad. It's just bad in other ways. Any inbalance in spending power tilts the allocation of resources in favor of those with more money - thus leaving a lower percentage of resources left for everyone else - leading to poverty, starvation, and general insustainability.


It would take an incredibly class-conscious populace on the lookout for these things and a ferocious bureaucracy to prevent this corruption and degeneration back into capitalism

From the propagandist's point of view, there are two ways people arrive at what they believe - active conscious examination of possible viewpoints, and passive zombie-like acceptance of whatever the media feeds them. I'd say consumer culture is of course the second... however, imagine if your favorite ideology becomes popular and propagandists start adopting your ideology to spread to others. Assuming your ideology came from conscious examination and re-examination, then the people in society who share your views would be a mix - both of those who are conscious and those who just listen to the propaganda and accept it without a second thought.

I guess the point is that under capitalism, we have people actively pushing consumer culture - the advertisers who serve clients that need it to work, or else they'd go bankrupt and suffer economic hardship. Without capitalism, I'd imagine you'd still always need people to explain just why consumer advertising was a waste of time and resources, and while it would be nice if everybody was constantly engaged in critical thinking, I'd imagine a good segment of the population would be like they are now - not really bothering to read between the lines, and just going about with other things in mind.

Luís Henrique
22nd March 2013, 21:00
How is it capitalism? Who are the capitalists in this system? Where are the wage-workers, the proletarians? Who is exploiting whom? You say that you get to "manage your own exploitation." Well, who or what is exploiting you in this system?

In the proposed system, there would be no capitalists, but there would still be capital. As the workers have to strive to produce as much as possible, in order that their company does not get destroyed in competition, they themselves have to perform the functions of capitalists (ie, to take care of capital, so that it reproduces itself appropriately). In which case, capital itself exploits workers, without the need of a capitalist class - and workers are not exploiting themselves, as some say, but are indeed managing their own exploitation by an abstraction, capital.

In practice, of course, workers will soon discover that workplace democracy does hamper the competitivity of "their" company, and that it will perform increasingly better as the decision process is increasingly delegated to "specialists", a non-working bureaucracy that can take the demands of capital reproduction into account with much less ambiguity than the workers, who will tend to balk at the sacrifices necessary to maintain competitivity.


The general class interests of the working class in this scenario are:
1. To get rid of the capitalist class and become the ruling class (done).
2. To have a well-functioning, efficient economy responding to what people want produced in a simple and timely manner. The latter general interest is served by each worker aspiring to his/her short-term interests of maximizing his/her enterprise's profits—producing cheaply and efficiently (with as little waste of others' resources) what people want and need. Point 2. is not consistent. The maximisation of "their" enterprise profits may be their short-term interest (if we ignore, for the sake of argument, the issues of duration and intensity of labour), but it is not in their long-term interests.

Lus Henrique

Strannik
23rd March 2013, 15:03
The problem with market/socialist systems is, I think, that they tend to be quite complex. Capitalism is a very simple thing - it has only two fundamental concepts: abstract monetary value (which in theory should be "social necessity" of a commodity) and abstract, absolute property right. Everything else is negotiable. On abstract level, communism would be even more simple since the property right is eliminated. There is only socially calculated necessity - and that is constantly changing. So I think communist economy would have one characteristic of market - aggregated individual decisions would play a part. But in no way or shape can communist economy have permanent individualistic property rights or apparatus for upholding such rights.

Capitalism is a contradictionary social system precisely because it distributes permanent, eternal property rights according to temporary individual decisions on the market.

Vladimir Innit Lenin
24th March 2013, 17:04
Okay it's been your lucky days that i've been away for a week, but just a reminder that, whilst this has been an interesting discussion and it is great that the OP has seen some error in their ways, market socialists are generally restricted on this board. Of course, discussion of market socialist ideas does not warrant restriction, and i'm pleased that this has been such a fruitful discussion.

As has been raised, and just as a quick precis of the critique of the OPs ideas - as Socialists we seek to abolish capital, not manage it better. Workers managing capital (including self-managing/combining labour activities with self-managing their own workplace) become capitalists. Workers are not morally or otherwise intrinsically 'better' than capitalists. The working class and ruling class are merely products of the social system, and function according to their relationship to the means of production.

Worker self-management is generally not mutually exclusive to the continued hegemony of capital. The only thing that is mutually exclusive to the continuation of capitalism, from a Marxian perspective, is the end of capitalism.

cyu
24th March 2013, 17:33
I think one of the root causes of similar ideologies is the belief that competition is the foremost driver of improvements in anything. As a result, some people insist on forcing workers to compete with each other "for the greater good of humanity".

From http://everything2.com/title/Competition+within+Cooperative+Systems

In the type of system where competition is dominant, we have examples like warfare and corporations fighting for market share. In these examples, groups of people cooperate, but only within their own groups. Their groups then compete with one another, attempting to destroy the other group. Cooperation within each group (whether the army or the company) makes that group stronger, and more able to outcompete their rival. However, because competition is dominant, the resulting system is that many of those involved (the soldiers killed or the employees laid off) will end up suffering.

it is possible to create competition between products, while maintaining cooperation between producers. In other words, producers share technology and "trade secrets" but they are free to produce different products. The products then compete for consumers - the ones nobody likes are allowed to go extinct. However, the benefits to society or industry resulting from the better products are given to all the producers, thus giving them an incentive to continue to cooperate, rather than hide their trade secrets or trying to sabotage their competition.

ckaihatsu
24th March 2013, 21:48
I think one of the root causes of similar ideologies is the belief that competition is the foremost driver of improvements in anything. As a result, some people insist on forcing workers to compete with each other "for the greater good of humanity".

From http://everything2.com/title/Competition+within+Cooperative+Systems

In the type of system where competition is dominant, we have examples like warfare and corporations fighting for market share. In these examples, groups of people cooperate, but only within their own groups. Their groups then compete with one another, attempting to destroy the other group. Cooperation within each group (whether the army or the company) makes that group stronger, and more able to outcompete their rival. However, because competition is dominant, the resulting system is that many of those involved (the soldiers killed or the employees laid off) will end up suffering.


Yes.





it is possible to create competition between products, while maintaining cooperation between producers. In other words, producers share technology and "trade secrets" but they are free to produce different products. The products then compete for consumers - the ones nobody likes are allowed to go extinct. However, the benefits to society or industry resulting from the better products are given to all the producers, thus giving them an incentive to continue to cooperate, rather than hide their trade secrets or trying to sabotage their competition.


I wonder how true-to-form this would actually be -- I'd think that the factionalism around competing 'brands' would far overshadow the public-domain byproduct from all of it. And, what you're describing would only be sustainable during 'boom' times, with a fiercer competitiveness on the downslope.

I'd go so far as to say that what you're describing is not dissimilar to current reality.

cyu
26th March 2013, 01:31
I'd think that the factionalism around competing 'brands' would far overshadow the public-domain byproduct


No doubt people tend to side with what they themselves have been working on. At least in our current culture, people don't like the loss of self-esteem associated with a losing product.



what you're describing would only be sustainable during 'boom' times


Agreed that people are much more generous in times of plenty than times of scarcity. However, as an anarchist that encourages the needy to simply take things if they need them to survive http://cjyu.wordpress.com/article/if-they-do-not-give-you-work-or-bread-gcybcajus7dp-10/ , then that leaves two options in times of scarcity:

1. Civil war with the poor to prevent them from getting what they need - with the additional need to fight anarchists as well.
2. Actually work with the poor to decrease scarcity.

Not that these options are much different from what they are now. So what exactly is different then? What's different is that the cooperative option isn't even considered an option by many capitalist / social darwinist ideologues - it's simply not considered because it doesn't fit in their religion. Of course, it's my job to ensure their religion goes extinct ;)